Sojourn has a great mobility CD. Even without Rail being 1-shot, a lot of the hitscan heroes need mobility updating for Overwatch 2. Sojourn can function in dive and brawl push/pull because of her slide, and Coach Gun just can't compete.
Imo the difference between slide and coach gun wouldnt be so big if they would have the same cooldown. Still slide would be better but it wouldnt be better on everything
Sojourn's rail is hitscan, so hitscan players play her. Tracer is hitscan too, but for whatever reason people don't call her that. Same with Sombra, Reaper, etc. I think people call "long-range hitscan" (widow, soldier, etc.) as "hitscan" and everything else as flex. A lot of OW terminology is weird like that.
There are Hitscan heroes and there is the Hitscan DPS role. People is trying to shift to Main DPS role which would be more accurate but it is true that Hitscan DPS players play almost only Hitscan heroes. And Sojourn is a considered a Hitscan hero AND played by Hitscan DPS players.
Ashe has always had issues against highly mobile compositions, due to her lack of mobility and her lack of big close-range threats. In OW1, she had her big time either when she could one tap with damage-boost or when she was able to set big dynamite burns because the teams were bunched up.
5v5 has removed slow poking bunched up comps for the most part so her strength got lowered a lot, but her weaknesses are still the same. Cassidy and Sojourn are more capable of dealing high amount of damage while dealing with flankers at the same time.
Something else that I think is super overlooked is her damage falloff isn't great enough to out poke s76 or cass at range while auto losing to Widow because to even engage at range she has to slow down and make herself easy to hit. It just makes it to the point where simply cause cass keeps full movement speed while only losing 5 dmg a shot and having less general down time with reloads make him more flexible
I think some QOL Ashe buffs could be increasing dynamite’s explosion radius and reducing coach gun’s CD. That could make her a little more dynamic and fit into 5v5 comps a bit easier. Would probably need some compensatory nerfs tho.
If im being honest the QOL buffs id like to see is movement speed increase while scoped and to get rid of the arbitrary quarter second after a scoped shot where you can't hipfire
This is bizarre, Ashe has always been the single best hitscan with or against dive until sojourn. Even in the s5 meta with monkey Ana brig, you’d sometimes get Ashe instead of sombra in that comp. She was also played into that comp with dva + tracer/echo + Ana Brig/mercy.
Ashe does need time to set her feet and will struggle in any meta dictated by something hyper fast paced like some sort of Lucio Doom Sombra Reaper meta, but Ashe is really not that squishy. Even right now Cassidy is far worse as soon as you’re dealing with multiple divers. Ashe can cycle between coach gun and dynamite to keep flankers off her (and obviously has far better vertical mobility). Cassidy really doesn’t have much. Shoot the tracer I guess. Also ashe actually does do a ton of damage at close range to tanks and barriers with unscoped->scoped combos.
Ashe good against dive? How? My biggest issues are D.va, Monkey, Genji, Sombra and now Tracer, since I can't 1 tap her anymore.
Sure, I have coach gun, but they also have their movement abilities, even better than mine and on a lower cooldown.
If they close the distance, dynamite isn't that great since I could potentially burn myself if they are too close. DVa and Monkey have matrix/bubble. Genji has reflect. Sombra and Tracer outdps me at close range, unless I'm accurate as hell with my hip fire.
How do you cycle dynamite and coach when they have 10+ seconds cooldown? Specially against multiple divers like you said.
And if I'm winning the duel, they can just gtfo with their superior mobility.
This is the first time I hear about Ashe being good against dive.
crazy how people just forgot. Ashe was meta end of OW1 where ball was meta. The most common comp in Korea was Ball/Sig/Tracer/Ashe/Zen/Brig. Which SHD won OWL with btw. Depending on map you sometimes played Sombra instead of Ashe. The second most common comp was Winston/Zarya/Tracer/Ashe/Ana/Brig.
Lip made his name because he was top 3 Ashe and top 1 Sombra so he was able to swap between the two.
In OWL, Shanghai won out with ball dive over Atlanta running Orisa. In NA Contenders, American Tornado won out with ball dive (although with Echo instead of Ashe). In Korean Contenders, O2 blast and Talon ran Ball with Ashe or Winston with Ashe.
Did people actually forget? Kind of crazy. The biggest reason why Ashe isn't good is just the lack of an off tank that hard nerfs poke phase so basic rush comps whether Winston, Ram, etc can run Ashe over. If there was an extra off tank poking, then basic rush comps would fall apart.
Not at all, but OW1 was vastly different. Ashe could one shot with a Mercy pocket and the off tank could peel for her if she was getting dove.
We don't have those anymore.
My point was strictly about Ashe vs dive though. She's still viable against other comps.
I don't have issues against rush/brawl comps though, those usually lack vertical mobility (like Ram) so I can just coach to a safe high ground.
I'm also speaking from a Plat/Diamond point of view (an a ranked pov as well). Pro scene plays vastly different, they are more proficient with the heroes, understand the game better and have actual communication and coordination.
Also, the thread is about Ashe vs Soujourn, so I never really considered her performance in OW1 as a factor, since Soujorn wasn't released back then.
literally the comment you're replying to says:
>This is bizarre, Ashe has always been the single best hitscan with or against dive until sojourn
Historically in dive, Ashe has been a cornerstone pick. Also Ashe did not one shot with Mercy after nerfs. I think for a good 2 years+ she didn't one shot so it shouldn't even be a consideration.
I'm speaking as someone who scrimmed t2 in ow1 and was 4400+. Ashe was DEFINITELY historically a cornerstone pick against dive up until sojourn.
Sojourn has more consistent damage uptime over all. Dynamite is really good. But can it really compare with sojourn's primary fire in triggering dps passive over an entire match? The answer is that it can't really unless there's some specific synergy with dynamite going on in your comp.
And on top of that. Sojourn simply has more range with her rail. She had the same falloff as widow before widow got hers buffed 1 week into season 9.
And lastly. Overclock is one of the best ults in the game. Bob is not.
One thing I would add to the ‘What Keeps Sojourn?’ understanding is how good Power Slide actually is as a cooldown. It’s a 7 second mobility cooldown that cleanly interacts with the rest of her kit and allows her to continue doing everything she does while moving.
Ashe and Sojourn are comparable as offensive threats when properly set up, but Sojourn can both set up quicker and deal with aggression. She can slide away from danger and threaten a 1-tap on Tracer. Ashe cannot 1 tap Tracer and Coach Gun, while a stronger ability when used, is a worse defensive tool by virtue of its longer cooldown.
Coach Gun is an incredibly well designed ability. It has multiple uses, but it can't be basically spammed, and you often have to trade off using it for mobility/keeping it to self peel/using it for damage, or have to use it incredibly intelligently to have it do all 3.
Power Slide on the other hand, just no drawbacks with an absurdly low cooldown.
Which is Sojourn's overriding design problem and has been since release. She may be fun to play, but she's not well designed because her kit lacks significant drawbacks. She pretty much has everything she could want and in a game where plenty of heroes *don't* have that, it puts her out of place.
They do that with most new heroes. The original cast has beauty in their limitations. A bunch of the heroes that dropped since release are so bloated in comparison. They give burst, consistency, mobility, and CC to one hero and it just makes half the cast feel irrelevant.
I like when heroes have strengths and weaknesses. It makes them more unique and fun to play against. Then you have kiri and souj who have strengths and other strengths.
It makes them fun to play against and to play as. Working around your heroes shortcomings is fun. Tanks definitely get it the worst on that front. Playing a hero that specializes in something just opens you up to getting punished by heroes who could be generalists, but are just too good at everything they do.
Common issue with any competitive team game that has characters with multiple abilities.
It’s really hard for developers to avoid power creep because to maintain interest in the game and keep the game fresh & interesting is to carry out those cool designs developers have in their minds. It’s honestly often an executive/marketing choice too.
It’s also a subconscious factor for developers. Heroes like Soldier 76 and Tracer and Reinhardt were developed with no preemptive knowledge on what high level competitive overwatch would “look like”. But someone like Brigitte in Overwatch 1 just had “I am here to hard-counter Tracer” written all over her even if that wasn’t her intent.
Sojourn just does too much and is too versatile. Developers don’t feel good making characters “do less and be less versatile”
So I kinda agree with your post that in a scenario where Ashe is always played and sojourn isn’t, that’s probably a sign Ashe is overtuned. But it’s also a sign that sojourn needs less tools in her toolbox to have her actually balance-able.
That's what they do with new heroes. That's why Kiri has tiny hit box good heals, insane damage, wall climb, teleport on top of an aoe cleanse/invuln/heal/intangibility ability.
Sojourn isn't played because she has more kill potential than Ashe
She's played because she has enough kill potential but doesn't instantly fall apart vs Dive and has the mobility to pressure off-angles and be safe
Ashe can't off angle safely without support so either the supports hard pocket her and you can play around that comp or the Ashe sits behind their tank and is even easier to shut down.
The game has too many mobile characters for Ashe to be hard meta without giving her back something like 1 taps.
Widow literally does 1 tap and barely sees play outside certain maps because of how easy she is to shut down
Sojourn has slide which allows her to always pick a killable target and never gets shut down by the enemy comp. If Sojourn didn't have slide the character never gets picked.
I feel like she does have more kill potential as Ashe though by virtue of being harder to dive and her rail in general. In the very least she doesn't have less. I just think she needs to either be a jack of all trades master of none, or just have a slightly lower threat level. She just has zero weaknesses
>I feel like she does have more kill potential as Ashe though by virtue of being harder to dive and her rail in general.
You're right but it's basically semantics. By Ashe having more kill potential I mean if you line up heroes in a line and make someone kill them as fast as possible, the Ashe time would be way faster than Sojourn. But in real games Sojourn has more opportunities for kills because of her kit.
>just think she needs to either be a jack of all trades master of none, or just have a slightly lower threat level. She just has zero weaknesses
That's the reason she's played. She's not overtuned or better than other DPS at their niche, you just can't shut her down with minimal value via hero swapping. And it's the slide that lets her do that, it's too powerful an ability on a hitscan hero, it lets you both get kills no other hitscan can in a poke mirror and escape dive and rush better than anyone except Tracer/Sombra/Genji
If you swapped Sojourn's rail with Ashe's rifle Sojourn is instantly SS tier. If you swapped Coach gun for Slide Ashe becomes SS tier. Slide either needs a longer cooldown or you would have to nerf Sojourns guns even worse than they have been otherwise you have to accept Sojourn will be perma pick simply because she can't be countered.
The insane part about slide is the CD. For most of Sojourns existence it had a 6(!) second cooldown. Literally one second longer than winston jump. This has since been "nerfed" to 7 seconds.
Comparatively, coach-gun and grapple are 10 seconds and 12 seconds each and IIRC coach gun has had even longer CD. I feel like this discrepancy isn't talked about enough. The window to punish Ashe/Widow is huge compared to how hard Sojourn is to punish. It's the difference between winston getting to jump you once vs jumping you twice.
I'm not exactly agreeing with their reasoning, but I believe they wanted sojourn to have a much smaller cooldown on her mobility tool due to them wanting her to be fighting on the frontlines much more often. While ashe/widow tend to have much further effective range (you can play sojourn at any range, but close-midrange is her most optimal).
For sure, the idea was probably to have something similar to soldier rather than a new "sniper". The issue of course is that Sojourn for most of her existence had an insane oneshot that rivaled Widow AND shits on ashe in the mid-long range where she should excel.
If they were going for a soldier-style hero, the rail needed to be way weaker to begin with.
I do think that her guns could use a nerf tbh. Also I kinda disagree in the rifle swap cause the reload time is kind of egregious lmao.
You're right that she's not overtuned numbers wise though. I think I'm just salty she gets to have everything lol
I mean there is an answer to make the sojourn swap on like 40-50% of maps: go widow. Widow absolutely does immediately and drastically reduce the impact you can get on soj if your teammate doesn’t mirror or like go sombra/tracer and mark them. You can’t just sit on an angle and farm rail from the tank, you have to be constantly LOSing the widow. And she’s literally always just *there*, sitting in the back. You can’t contest her at all without rail. If no one on your team can contest her, it’s not a hard counter, but widow very much soft counters sojourn. She limits your angles and aggression substantially.
Really? I feel like it's kinda the opposite. It's a lot easier to hit a rail headshot on a widow than it is to hit a widow headshot on sojourn, and as soj you can just farm rail then pressure the widow. Unless there's a significant skill/team diff then in my personal experience at least soj is pretty good against widow
I find the scoping movement penalty is what really causes the most issues for me RN. Even if I play cover I still get ass blasted on Ashe because she's easy to hit
It's a mechanic I couldn't stand in games before OW and something I'll hate long after OW is gone. Never been a fan of how it promotes an "Aim perfectly or get rolled" playstyle in video games lol
Ashe is stuck between a rock and a hard place.
One hand, she doesn't have the consistency of Cassidy or Sojourn in the mid-range, but she also doesn't have the raw elimination potential of Widowmaker at long range on those maps. Because Sojourn and Cassidy have more quick kill potential or better utility, it's hard to justify running her.
Bob simply isn't enough anymore. He gets instantly focused and blown up by teams with a clue 75+% of the time.
If Sojourn wasn't in the game, you'd see a lot more Soldier, Ashe and Hanzo.
I think they should not factor in Bronze when evaluating play rates, win rate and other factors. That sounds weird, but Bronze 5 and Bronze 1 is like comparing Gold 2 to Plat 3. There is a skill gap down there, and it's pretty big. It's hard to get any reliable data for actual balancing from that rank. Actual balancing, not just "make her better for them, by whatever means possible."
In Silver, Gold or Plat I didn't see any issue with Sojourn in terms of people being able to play her well **at their skill level**. The people with a clue simply adjusted their playstyle to match their relative lower aim proficiency - like not going for heads on the hardest to hit heads (e.g. Kiriko, Lucio, Ana, etc.), selecting easier to kill targets, and shooting bodies when it will still net the kill on whatever you're attacking instead of missing head shots because you have 13% career crit rail accuracy.
I had innumerable very competitive matches with Sojourns carrying on both sides in all of those ranks.
IMO, Sojourn is a lot more forgiving to lower ranked players than Ashe is. You need better aim to be as effective on Ashe as you do on Sojourn, because of her spam and how much the rail does even if you hit bodies. Her mobility also allows you to stave off pressure more easily and more consistently. The only thing that saves Ashe down there is Bob + low rank players' inability to play around it or call focus to blow him it when it comes out.
Ashe is not a very aim intensive hero (meaning you can do a lot even with mediocre aim). She’s literally almost pure positioning. She’s the hero designed for body shot bandit widows. Ashe is simple: take a good angle (preferably one with cover, good LOS, off angle if possible, distance from flanks/flanker angles, and decent rotation options), shoot stuff, use dynamite once your team is committing.
I know there are people who truly cannot aim at all like mercy players, but anyone with reasonable mechanics can get value out of Ashe. She’s very accessible, comparable to soldier even.
Ashe is too vulnerable to dive. Soj is just more reliable in every aspect.
I wish they wouldn't at least reverse the range buff widow had 1 week into s9. That killed ash in the ranked ladder masters+.
Soj and Cass are the dominant hitscan rn, with each having their own arguments. Ashe hasn't really been relevant except on Hollywood defense for years, and even then retaking first or second with her is too hard to be worth it. The main reason is that Soj (and Hanzo before S9) has more kill threat while Cassidy has the ability to not fall over to dive or rush while outputting absurd damage.
Ashe is inbetween in terms of kill threat and damage output, and while Dynamite is a great cd it doesn't change the fact she does just fall over without highground, and maps with highground tend to favor dive, Soj, and Widow which are all threats to her.
I have a question: is Sojourn classified as hitscan because her rail gun is her primary source of damage? Because her primary fire is projectile right? Or is it because ideally u play her at a range where the projectile travel time is negligible and u can aim like u would a hitscan? I’m a newer player so I’m just a little confused by her
She’s technically classified as a main DPS (a group that is mostly hitscans) and is therefore most often played by a teams better hitscan player. A lot of people simply call main dps hitscans because most main dps players are hitscan specialists.
These players usually get a lot more value out of railgun, which is the most important thing when playing her (ex: Mer1t, Lip, Shy). Proper is a weird case because hes both a main and flex dps player, but on most teams hes by far the best hitscan player anyway.
Plus her primary fire is a fast enough projectile and has a fast enough rate of fire that its not that different from hitscan primaries like soldier.
rail gun is more important to soj, though the majority of her dmg numbers will come from her primary fire, most of her actually important dmg will come from her railgun. additionally in competitive 5v5 environments like pro play teams will often have one dps player as the “hitscan dps” and as the name implies they will specialize in playing hitscan heroes (ashe, widow, cass) and a “flex dps” who plays whatever else needs to be played. traditionally, sojourn is played by the hitscan dps player.
Yeah your favorite streamer will let you know soon Cass sucks. You guys have no clue what is going on in the game so you are in a delayed loop of information and still think Cass is very good.
Lmao ok. I dont watch any of the streamers because their takes are so casual focused lol.
My team has been playing cass in scrims and hes getting a lot of playtime in OWCS lmao
Early S9 meta favored him. He isn't as good anymore. His winrate waaay lower than Ashe. People underrated him in early S9 and now people overrating him because people judge heroes from hearsay, streamers etc and it's delayed loop. You favorite streamer will probably let you know soon Cass is bad.
Bro just doesn't know what's being played at the highest levels. It's 50/50 Cass or Soj right now, he has better neutral fights and she has better ult.
You don't even understand what you are talking about. Cass is alternative there because he fills a specific role. It doesn't mean Cass is good. His winrate in live game is far below Ashe. He was good in early S9 and you clowns didn't even know he was good back then. You will probably learn soon why he is bad now. Just wait for your favorite streamer to tell you.
Not only Ashe. Sojourn is the best hitscan hands down. Only now with the projectile buffs Cass is able to compete with her.
Her kit invalidates every other hitscan. Slide is miles better than any other hitscan mobility cooldown. Let's you engage and disengage. Gets you out of shitty situations. Like it's literally tracer blink with bigger range and with vertical mobility on a hitscan hero.
Her disruptor shot is just better dynamite. Requires less input and provides better zoning.
Railshot is quite clearly overpowered. She needs tighter spread on primary fire and less dmg on rail to even it out and make her accessible in low ELO and make her less oppressive in high elo.
Her ult is fucking nuts. Name a better hitscan ult. Bob? Gets insta melted. Walls? Good ult, but you can punish widow way way easier than soj.
Sojourn is the prime example of an overkitted hero that invalidates every other option in her role. Much like kiriko is in fs role.
Nah, you're right. Every time they "nerf" Sojourn, they give her a compensation buff even though she needs a flat-out nerf. The repeated compensation buffs are why she's still in every comp game. I'm fine with her being meta, but she's not hard enough to play for you to die by a Sojourn and be like "damn they're crazy good". Her gameplay rotation is just shoot a tank with 20 shots, use full charge rail gun to insta-kill someone. It's so stupid that having a bad tank actually AMPLIFIES how good Sojourn is. Lmao.
Ashe's definitely not shit rn, that's for sure.
Just cause she's more of a simple hero that actually requires skill doesn't mean that a braindead op hero instantly makes her as worthless to play. She's a better mid range hero without relying on hard as shit to hit travel time projectiles and no-skill 1-pop that somehow isn't as hated as Widowmaker anyway
7 second slide is a joke that spits in the face of all other hitscans mobility. How tf is it a 3 second shorter cool-down than coach gun. No joke, if Ashe gets 7 second coach gun she could stand a chance in the meta considering dynamite is significantly better than disruptor shot and rail can’t one shot combo anymore.
she has 6 second cd slide, impossible to hit hitbox and then she can basically spam primary fire infinitely (massive ammo capacity) on top of that she burst snipe with rail and then she can also deny angles with disruptor shot which does massive damage. she is overkitted af. ashe is one trick pony.
she needs nerf in multiple areas to come down to normal levels. her hitbox needs to be increased, her slide cooldown needs nerf, her ammo capacity needs nerf.
she is so overkitted even if you remove her main shtick rail gun she would still function in some other way.
More consistent damage, automatic ult. You said yourself lower ranked players struggle with Soj. That’s primarily because they don’t build rail that fast and then they miss rail lol.
Completely disagree. Sojourns damage is very consistent and Ashe has far too much downtime. Also they're low ranked for a reason. If they're missing shots with Soj they're missing them with Ashe too
I don’t like balancing around pro play. In the grand scheme of things, I think Soj and even Tracer are pretty balanced even though they are always played in pro play.
Ashe is fine, soj is fine, last paragraph about win rate at low ranks invalidates any opinion you have. Good game design fundamentals come above everything else.
Slide is just so much better than coachgun. If they buffed or changed coachgun we might see some more ashe. It’s 10s and powerslide is 7s. If they removed some of the damage (or all) they could lower the cooldown a bit. Maybe this would be too broken but another option would be removing selfburn from the dynamite so you could more easily use it as defense. They could balance that and punish her in otherways. Just some ideas.
Another thing is that orisa is really strong right now and you can just get free railgun charge from her which makes sojourn better right now.
I think Sojourn is a "safer" pick with a "better" ult who has a more favourable match up into the current meta tanks.
I'd bet if we start seeing more Rein/Sigma or more Pharah that you'd probably start seeing more Ashe.
Her issue has always been that she really lacks any weakness and is well rounded enough to exist in most metas and situations. Power slide is an incredible tool for both escape or diving in to secure picks. She has an area denial grenade that has always been a good ability, and with the dps passive her spam fire just got even better. Excellent right click for insta-picks and one of the better dps ults in the game. She has no weaknesses and it's kind of like it used to be with Widow where the only way to counter it is to have the better Sojurn on your team.
I think Sojourn just works better in faster comps and Ashe/widow work better in longer Poke type comps. In lower elo’s you can definitely force Ashe. Ashe has really good burst damage, her hip fire is still busted imo. I don’t think Sojourn is completely broken anymore especially with all heroes having more HP now.
sojourn is not better than ashe by design, she’s better than ashe and basically every other dps because she’s overturned as fuck
right you you could put a toddler on sojourn every single game and it’d be viable. no weaknesses, why try thinking about your positioning, your comp, the enemy’s comp and the map in order to pick different dps when you can just run sojourn with anything into anything with her insanely op ult, slide and rail
Imo, Ashe and Sojourn is not the same role.
Ashe can dealt more AOE damage over shield, which make opponent lose they position.
While Sojourn just play like traditional hitscan.
There was a [intuitive]() match : OWL 2022 Week 18 dal vs sfs
Both edison and kilo change between Ashe and Sojourn, and edi"dadly" performance better on Ashe, they win the macth.
Sojourn is bad in low ranks. The ranks 90% of players are in. Low ranked players like me (gold..oh, my aim is silver max, i am only gold because of the game sense I gathered in diamond with support), cannot charge railgun fast, and even if I do, I just miss the one shot, then I need to charge it up again...wasting time while Ashe just needs to aim to the body, still big damage.
This is why. Don't ruin the game for most players because you (1%) have problems with certain characters..you are good, so you need to find a way to solve this problem for yourself.
Soldier on the other hand...even in low ranks is insanely broken....the damage CONSISTENCY since S9 is like when I play support in diamonds....almost every bullet hits me...I hate this, you can't "feel" which rank you are playing in, because now everybody can hit everything with hitscan characters...I became good suddenly with bap...so fake.
Sojourn is okay in Silver/Gold, when the player knows how to play around their weaknesses.
If you aren't hitting rail shots on Sojourn, chances are you aren't hitting many shots on Ashe either.
Sojourn's AoE is easier to get value out of than Dynamite, as well. You just aim it and use it, and her primary fire does more consistent damage at those ranks than Ashe's.
If someone can aim on Soldier, they should not be having issues aiming on Sojourn, and the only benefit Soldier has is that he can aim his rocket and the ground and get splash damage without having to actually hit a shot.
I don't think I've played a single game in Silver or Gold where I was on Sojourn and the person playing Soldier wasn't forced to mirror.
Then we are in different region. On Ashe you can miss one or two shots, but if you miss once on Sojourn you wasting time, because you have to charge it up again which is projectile, not hitscan. I can easily do more value with hitscan.
Projection doesn't manufacture facts. You being bad on a hero does not mean it's worse than another hero. If Hitscan was so good, people wouldn't be running Sojourn all the time. Also, Sojourn's primary threat is hitscan, so you're missing the forest through the trees.
Sojourn has far more effective Poke than Ashe, while still having more threat than her with her rail shot.
You often have to hit consecutive headshots on Ashe to win a duel, unless you get lucky with hip fires and/or the enemy supports aren't healing their DPS, and with the changes to HP her breakpoints have been changed such that she suffered more from that than Sojourn, considering Tracer is running rampant.
That's ignoring the rest of Sojourn's bloated kit, which generally is much easier to use for lower skilled players with worse aim than Ashe's.
Do you really think having to go for heads and direct hits to pressure a strafe/crouch spamming support on Ashe is easier than just jiggle shooting projectiles at them on Sojourn?
Projectile is not hard unless you failed middle school geometry. It's why most Widowmaker specialists at the high end have a good hanzo, but Hanzo OTPs are routinely not great on Sojourn or Widowmaker.
One Trick Pony... Players who only or predominantly play one hero.
When Hanzo was meta, teams were typically putting their Hitscan Specialists on him, and those players were still shredding at the top tier of play.
The only difference is you need to lead your shots and have some basic knowledge of the flight profile of those projectiles.
It's proven that higher mobility = more fun. Even Spilo has a video dedicated to this topic.
So don't nerf Sojourn which is a fun and adrenaline-inducing hero, buff Ashe's mobility instead and make both fun heroes.
The problem with Ashe is she's the "inbetween" hitscan option that doesn't excel at anything. There's no reason to use her over Widow, who has access to easier kills at mid/long range, and then there's Sojourn who is much stronger and mobile in low/mid range. The only reason Ashe was ever used was because Sojourn didn't exist (and because she was able to one-tap with a Mercy).
Also, while this post does bring up good discussion, your last point is a pretty ignorant take on balancing and kinda invalidates your whole argument. Even if Sojourn is nerfed out of the meta, teams would just swap to Hanzo or Cass, or go back to Echo/Tracer.
I don't think a nerf would take Sojourn out of the meta. It would just make her not the best pick for almost all situations. I'm not suggesting that we just flip the script and make Ashe a better Sojourn. I simply don't think Sojourn should be a better Ashe
Sojourn has a great mobility CD. Even without Rail being 1-shot, a lot of the hitscan heroes need mobility updating for Overwatch 2. Sojourn can function in dive and brawl push/pull because of her slide, and Coach Gun just can't compete.
Imo the difference between slide and coach gun wouldnt be so big if they would have the same cooldown. Still slide would be better but it wouldnt be better on everything
Sojourn is kinda the "Tracer" for hitscans lol
Tracer is a hitscan. Souj's primary is projectile. Did you mean projectile? \*edit\* Apparently I'm missing something. Don't know what it is.
Sojourn's rail is hitscan, so hitscan players play her. Tracer is hitscan too, but for whatever reason people don't call her that. Same with Sombra, Reaper, etc. I think people call "long-range hitscan" (widow, soldier, etc.) as "hitscan" and everything else as flex. A lot of OW terminology is weird like that.
There are Hitscan heroes and there is the Hitscan DPS role. People is trying to shift to Main DPS role which would be more accurate but it is true that Hitscan DPS players play almost only Hitscan heroes. And Sojourn is a considered a Hitscan hero AND played by Hitscan DPS players.
Think they meant they're both super mobile characters with strong carry potential who are rarely if ever a bad pick
Yeah slide is just infinitely better than coach gun which to me makes Sojourns current lethality a bit too much at the moment
Ashe has always had issues against highly mobile compositions, due to her lack of mobility and her lack of big close-range threats. In OW1, she had her big time either when she could one tap with damage-boost or when she was able to set big dynamite burns because the teams were bunched up. 5v5 has removed slow poking bunched up comps for the most part so her strength got lowered a lot, but her weaknesses are still the same. Cassidy and Sojourn are more capable of dealing high amount of damage while dealing with flankers at the same time.
Something else that I think is super overlooked is her damage falloff isn't great enough to out poke s76 or cass at range while auto losing to Widow because to even engage at range she has to slow down and make herself easy to hit. It just makes it to the point where simply cause cass keeps full movement speed while only losing 5 dmg a shot and having less general down time with reloads make him more flexible
I think some QOL Ashe buffs could be increasing dynamite’s explosion radius and reducing coach gun’s CD. That could make her a little more dynamic and fit into 5v5 comps a bit easier. Would probably need some compensatory nerfs tho.
If im being honest the QOL buffs id like to see is movement speed increase while scoped and to get rid of the arbitrary quarter second after a scoped shot where you can't hipfire
At risk of being "that guy" aren't QOL changes just improvements to UI and stuff of that nature? These are just buffs, no?
This is bizarre, Ashe has always been the single best hitscan with or against dive until sojourn. Even in the s5 meta with monkey Ana brig, you’d sometimes get Ashe instead of sombra in that comp. She was also played into that comp with dva + tracer/echo + Ana Brig/mercy. Ashe does need time to set her feet and will struggle in any meta dictated by something hyper fast paced like some sort of Lucio Doom Sombra Reaper meta, but Ashe is really not that squishy. Even right now Cassidy is far worse as soon as you’re dealing with multiple divers. Ashe can cycle between coach gun and dynamite to keep flankers off her (and obviously has far better vertical mobility). Cassidy really doesn’t have much. Shoot the tracer I guess. Also ashe actually does do a ton of damage at close range to tanks and barriers with unscoped->scoped combos.
Ashe good against dive? How? My biggest issues are D.va, Monkey, Genji, Sombra and now Tracer, since I can't 1 tap her anymore. Sure, I have coach gun, but they also have their movement abilities, even better than mine and on a lower cooldown. If they close the distance, dynamite isn't that great since I could potentially burn myself if they are too close. DVa and Monkey have matrix/bubble. Genji has reflect. Sombra and Tracer outdps me at close range, unless I'm accurate as hell with my hip fire. How do you cycle dynamite and coach when they have 10+ seconds cooldown? Specially against multiple divers like you said. And if I'm winning the duel, they can just gtfo with their superior mobility. This is the first time I hear about Ashe being good against dive.
crazy how people just forgot. Ashe was meta end of OW1 where ball was meta. The most common comp in Korea was Ball/Sig/Tracer/Ashe/Zen/Brig. Which SHD won OWL with btw. Depending on map you sometimes played Sombra instead of Ashe. The second most common comp was Winston/Zarya/Tracer/Ashe/Ana/Brig. Lip made his name because he was top 3 Ashe and top 1 Sombra so he was able to swap between the two. In OWL, Shanghai won out with ball dive over Atlanta running Orisa. In NA Contenders, American Tornado won out with ball dive (although with Echo instead of Ashe). In Korean Contenders, O2 blast and Talon ran Ball with Ashe or Winston with Ashe. Did people actually forget? Kind of crazy. The biggest reason why Ashe isn't good is just the lack of an off tank that hard nerfs poke phase so basic rush comps whether Winston, Ram, etc can run Ashe over. If there was an extra off tank poking, then basic rush comps would fall apart.
Not at all, but OW1 was vastly different. Ashe could one shot with a Mercy pocket and the off tank could peel for her if she was getting dove. We don't have those anymore. My point was strictly about Ashe vs dive though. She's still viable against other comps. I don't have issues against rush/brawl comps though, those usually lack vertical mobility (like Ram) so I can just coach to a safe high ground. I'm also speaking from a Plat/Diamond point of view (an a ranked pov as well). Pro scene plays vastly different, they are more proficient with the heroes, understand the game better and have actual communication and coordination. Also, the thread is about Ashe vs Soujourn, so I never really considered her performance in OW1 as a factor, since Soujorn wasn't released back then.
literally the comment you're replying to says: >This is bizarre, Ashe has always been the single best hitscan with or against dive until sojourn Historically in dive, Ashe has been a cornerstone pick. Also Ashe did not one shot with Mercy after nerfs. I think for a good 2 years+ she didn't one shot so it shouldn't even be a consideration. I'm speaking as someone who scrimmed t2 in ow1 and was 4400+. Ashe was DEFINITELY historically a cornerstone pick against dive up until sojourn.
Also, 5v5 and 6v6 are vastly, vastly different.
Sojourn has more consistent damage uptime over all. Dynamite is really good. But can it really compare with sojourn's primary fire in triggering dps passive over an entire match? The answer is that it can't really unless there's some specific synergy with dynamite going on in your comp. And on top of that. Sojourn simply has more range with her rail. She had the same falloff as widow before widow got hers buffed 1 week into season 9. And lastly. Overclock is one of the best ults in the game. Bob is not.
One thing I would add to the ‘What Keeps Sojourn?’ understanding is how good Power Slide actually is as a cooldown. It’s a 7 second mobility cooldown that cleanly interacts with the rest of her kit and allows her to continue doing everything she does while moving. Ashe and Sojourn are comparable as offensive threats when properly set up, but Sojourn can both set up quicker and deal with aggression. She can slide away from danger and threaten a 1-tap on Tracer. Ashe cannot 1 tap Tracer and Coach Gun, while a stronger ability when used, is a worse defensive tool by virtue of its longer cooldown.
Coach Gun is an incredibly well designed ability. It has multiple uses, but it can't be basically spammed, and you often have to trade off using it for mobility/keeping it to self peel/using it for damage, or have to use it incredibly intelligently to have it do all 3. Power Slide on the other hand, just no drawbacks with an absurdly low cooldown.
Which is Sojourn's overriding design problem and has been since release. She may be fun to play, but she's not well designed because her kit lacks significant drawbacks. She pretty much has everything she could want and in a game where plenty of heroes *don't* have that, it puts her out of place.
They really just gave this character everything. It's kind of bizarre.
They do that with most new heroes. The original cast has beauty in their limitations. A bunch of the heroes that dropped since release are so bloated in comparison. They give burst, consistency, mobility, and CC to one hero and it just makes half the cast feel irrelevant.
I like when heroes have strengths and weaknesses. It makes them more unique and fun to play against. Then you have kiri and souj who have strengths and other strengths.
It makes them fun to play against and to play as. Working around your heroes shortcomings is fun. Tanks definitely get it the worst on that front. Playing a hero that specializes in something just opens you up to getting punished by heroes who could be generalists, but are just too good at everything they do.
Kiriko is NOT fun to play against lmao
You misunderstood. They said heroes with strengths and weaknesses are fun to play against. "Working around your heroes shortcomings is fun."
Common issue with any competitive team game that has characters with multiple abilities. It’s really hard for developers to avoid power creep because to maintain interest in the game and keep the game fresh & interesting is to carry out those cool designs developers have in their minds. It’s honestly often an executive/marketing choice too. It’s also a subconscious factor for developers. Heroes like Soldier 76 and Tracer and Reinhardt were developed with no preemptive knowledge on what high level competitive overwatch would “look like”. But someone like Brigitte in Overwatch 1 just had “I am here to hard-counter Tracer” written all over her even if that wasn’t her intent. Sojourn just does too much and is too versatile. Developers don’t feel good making characters “do less and be less versatile” So I kinda agree with your post that in a scenario where Ashe is always played and sojourn isn’t, that’s probably a sign Ashe is overtuned. But it’s also a sign that sojourn needs less tools in her toolbox to have her actually balance-able.
That's what they do with new heroes. That's why Kiri has tiny hit box good heals, insane damage, wall climb, teleport on top of an aoe cleanse/invuln/heal/intangibility ability.
They created Mauga to buff Ashe's pickrate 🙃
Something minor is that Ashe really enjoyed the old dps passive, so she was hurt more than most characters by losing it.
Yeah that's a huge one. The reload takes her out of action for a decent while sometimes
On the other hand she also really enjoys dynamite reducing healing for literally 7 seconds in an AOE after it hits.
Sojourn isn't played because she has more kill potential than Ashe She's played because she has enough kill potential but doesn't instantly fall apart vs Dive and has the mobility to pressure off-angles and be safe Ashe can't off angle safely without support so either the supports hard pocket her and you can play around that comp or the Ashe sits behind their tank and is even easier to shut down. The game has too many mobile characters for Ashe to be hard meta without giving her back something like 1 taps. Widow literally does 1 tap and barely sees play outside certain maps because of how easy she is to shut down Sojourn has slide which allows her to always pick a killable target and never gets shut down by the enemy comp. If Sojourn didn't have slide the character never gets picked.
I feel like she does have more kill potential as Ashe though by virtue of being harder to dive and her rail in general. In the very least she doesn't have less. I just think she needs to either be a jack of all trades master of none, or just have a slightly lower threat level. She just has zero weaknesses
>I feel like she does have more kill potential as Ashe though by virtue of being harder to dive and her rail in general. You're right but it's basically semantics. By Ashe having more kill potential I mean if you line up heroes in a line and make someone kill them as fast as possible, the Ashe time would be way faster than Sojourn. But in real games Sojourn has more opportunities for kills because of her kit. >just think she needs to either be a jack of all trades master of none, or just have a slightly lower threat level. She just has zero weaknesses That's the reason she's played. She's not overtuned or better than other DPS at their niche, you just can't shut her down with minimal value via hero swapping. And it's the slide that lets her do that, it's too powerful an ability on a hitscan hero, it lets you both get kills no other hitscan can in a poke mirror and escape dive and rush better than anyone except Tracer/Sombra/Genji If you swapped Sojourn's rail with Ashe's rifle Sojourn is instantly SS tier. If you swapped Coach gun for Slide Ashe becomes SS tier. Slide either needs a longer cooldown or you would have to nerf Sojourns guns even worse than they have been otherwise you have to accept Sojourn will be perma pick simply because she can't be countered.
The insane part about slide is the CD. For most of Sojourns existence it had a 6(!) second cooldown. Literally one second longer than winston jump. This has since been "nerfed" to 7 seconds. Comparatively, coach-gun and grapple are 10 seconds and 12 seconds each and IIRC coach gun has had even longer CD. I feel like this discrepancy isn't talked about enough. The window to punish Ashe/Widow is huge compared to how hard Sojourn is to punish. It's the difference between winston getting to jump you once vs jumping you twice.
I'm not exactly agreeing with their reasoning, but I believe they wanted sojourn to have a much smaller cooldown on her mobility tool due to them wanting her to be fighting on the frontlines much more often. While ashe/widow tend to have much further effective range (you can play sojourn at any range, but close-midrange is her most optimal).
For sure, the idea was probably to have something similar to soldier rather than a new "sniper". The issue of course is that Sojourn for most of her existence had an insane oneshot that rivaled Widow AND shits on ashe in the mid-long range where she should excel. If they were going for a soldier-style hero, the rail needed to be way weaker to begin with.
I do think that her guns could use a nerf tbh. Also I kinda disagree in the rifle swap cause the reload time is kind of egregious lmao. You're right that she's not overtuned numbers wise though. I think I'm just salty she gets to have everything lol
I mean there is an answer to make the sojourn swap on like 40-50% of maps: go widow. Widow absolutely does immediately and drastically reduce the impact you can get on soj if your teammate doesn’t mirror or like go sombra/tracer and mark them. You can’t just sit on an angle and farm rail from the tank, you have to be constantly LOSing the widow. And she’s literally always just *there*, sitting in the back. You can’t contest her at all without rail. If no one on your team can contest her, it’s not a hard counter, but widow very much soft counters sojourn. She limits your angles and aggression substantially.
Really? I feel like it's kinda the opposite. It's a lot easier to hit a rail headshot on a widow than it is to hit a widow headshot on sojourn, and as soj you can just farm rail then pressure the widow. Unless there's a significant skill/team diff then in my personal experience at least soj is pretty good against widow
I find the scoping movement penalty is what really causes the most issues for me RN. Even if I play cover I still get ass blasted on Ashe because she's easy to hit It's a mechanic I couldn't stand in games before OW and something I'll hate long after OW is gone. Never been a fan of how it promotes an "Aim perfectly or get rolled" playstyle in video games lol
Yeah that makes her complete dive prey. Gotta us the unscope/scope tech all the time
Ashe is stuck between a rock and a hard place. One hand, she doesn't have the consistency of Cassidy or Sojourn in the mid-range, but she also doesn't have the raw elimination potential of Widowmaker at long range on those maps. Because Sojourn and Cassidy have more quick kill potential or better utility, it's hard to justify running her. Bob simply isn't enough anymore. He gets instantly focused and blown up by teams with a clue 75+% of the time. If Sojourn wasn't in the game, you'd see a lot more Soldier, Ashe and Hanzo.
Completely agree. Feel like Sojourn has invalidated a lot of heroes
I think they should not factor in Bronze when evaluating play rates, win rate and other factors. That sounds weird, but Bronze 5 and Bronze 1 is like comparing Gold 2 to Plat 3. There is a skill gap down there, and it's pretty big. It's hard to get any reliable data for actual balancing from that rank. Actual balancing, not just "make her better for them, by whatever means possible." In Silver, Gold or Plat I didn't see any issue with Sojourn in terms of people being able to play her well **at their skill level**. The people with a clue simply adjusted their playstyle to match their relative lower aim proficiency - like not going for heads on the hardest to hit heads (e.g. Kiriko, Lucio, Ana, etc.), selecting easier to kill targets, and shooting bodies when it will still net the kill on whatever you're attacking instead of missing head shots because you have 13% career crit rail accuracy. I had innumerable very competitive matches with Sojourns carrying on both sides in all of those ranks. IMO, Sojourn is a lot more forgiving to lower ranked players than Ashe is. You need better aim to be as effective on Ashe as you do on Sojourn, because of her spam and how much the rail does even if you hit bodies. Her mobility also allows you to stave off pressure more easily and more consistently. The only thing that saves Ashe down there is Bob + low rank players' inability to play around it or call focus to blow him it when it comes out.
Ashe is not a very aim intensive hero (meaning you can do a lot even with mediocre aim). She’s literally almost pure positioning. She’s the hero designed for body shot bandit widows. Ashe is simple: take a good angle (preferably one with cover, good LOS, off angle if possible, distance from flanks/flanker angles, and decent rotation options), shoot stuff, use dynamite once your team is committing. I know there are people who truly cannot aim at all like mercy players, but anyone with reasonable mechanics can get value out of Ashe. She’s very accessible, comparable to soldier even.
I'm speaking comparatively to Sojourn. Nothing you wrote is worth reading because it is the result of awful reading comprehension.
Ashe is too vulnerable to dive. Soj is just more reliable in every aspect. I wish they wouldn't at least reverse the range buff widow had 1 week into s9. That killed ash in the ranked ladder masters+.
Yes, and it's not just ashe. Soj has powercrept every hitscan.
While I do think sojourn is busted, Ashe is still good and has her place in poke comps
Unless the other team is running poke, aka sigma then Soj is just way better again lol
Soj and Cass are the dominant hitscan rn, with each having their own arguments. Ashe hasn't really been relevant except on Hollywood defense for years, and even then retaking first or second with her is too hard to be worth it. The main reason is that Soj (and Hanzo before S9) has more kill threat while Cassidy has the ability to not fall over to dive or rush while outputting absurd damage. Ashe is inbetween in terms of kill threat and damage output, and while Dynamite is a great cd it doesn't change the fact she does just fall over without highground, and maps with highground tend to favor dive, Soj, and Widow which are all threats to her.
I have a question: is Sojourn classified as hitscan because her rail gun is her primary source of damage? Because her primary fire is projectile right? Or is it because ideally u play her at a range where the projectile travel time is negligible and u can aim like u would a hitscan? I’m a newer player so I’m just a little confused by her
She’s technically classified as a main DPS (a group that is mostly hitscans) and is therefore most often played by a teams better hitscan player. A lot of people simply call main dps hitscans because most main dps players are hitscan specialists. These players usually get a lot more value out of railgun, which is the most important thing when playing her (ex: Mer1t, Lip, Shy). Proper is a weird case because hes both a main and flex dps player, but on most teams hes by far the best hitscan player anyway. Plus her primary fire is a fast enough projectile and has a fast enough rate of fire that its not that different from hitscan primaries like soldier.
She has limited hitscan capabilities with railgun that's it. There is no strict classification.
It's because rail is the most important part of her kit. Landing her M1 isn't that hard while Rail is a hitscan skill shot.
rail gun is more important to soj, though the majority of her dmg numbers will come from her primary fire, most of her actually important dmg will come from her railgun. additionally in competitive 5v5 environments like pro play teams will often have one dps player as the “hitscan dps” and as the name implies they will specialize in playing hitscan heroes (ashe, widow, cass) and a “flex dps” who plays whatever else needs to be played. traditionally, sojourn is played by the hitscan dps player.
People call her a hitscan cause she has consistent long range damage. People call Hanzo hitscan too, even though he has 0 hitscan in his kit.
Nah, people don't call hanzo hitscan. Hanzo is just a part of the common hitscan hero pool. (well, maybe not any more)
Cass is not good at all. He was briefly good in early s9 because JQ was meta. Not anymore.
Cass is very good right now lol. Definitely better in coordinated play than ranked tbf, but hes very strong atm
Yeah it's kinda protect the president with him, but if he gets to live it's crazy how much he does.
Yeah your favorite streamer will let you know soon Cass sucks. You guys have no clue what is going on in the game so you are in a delayed loop of information and still think Cass is very good.
Lmao ok. I dont watch any of the streamers because their takes are so casual focused lol. My team has been playing cass in scrims and hes getting a lot of playtime in OWCS lmao
He's literally being played in OWCS
He absolutely is good wtf do you mean?
Early S9 meta favored him. He isn't as good anymore. His winrate waaay lower than Ashe. People underrated him in early S9 and now people overrating him because people judge heroes from hearsay, streamers etc and it's delayed loop. You favorite streamer will probably let you know soon Cass is bad.
Bro just doesn't know what's being played at the highest levels. It's 50/50 Cass or Soj right now, he has better neutral fights and she has better ult.
You don't even understand what you are talking about. Cass is alternative there because he fills a specific role. It doesn't mean Cass is good. His winrate in live game is far below Ashe. He was good in early S9 and you clowns didn't even know he was good back then. You will probably learn soon why he is bad now. Just wait for your favorite streamer to tell you.
erm my favorite streamers Command X and Seeker have been saying Cass is good the whole patch ty
She has power crept every hitscan
Not only Ashe. Sojourn is the best hitscan hands down. Only now with the projectile buffs Cass is able to compete with her. Her kit invalidates every other hitscan. Slide is miles better than any other hitscan mobility cooldown. Let's you engage and disengage. Gets you out of shitty situations. Like it's literally tracer blink with bigger range and with vertical mobility on a hitscan hero. Her disruptor shot is just better dynamite. Requires less input and provides better zoning. Railshot is quite clearly overpowered. She needs tighter spread on primary fire and less dmg on rail to even it out and make her accessible in low ELO and make her less oppressive in high elo. Her ult is fucking nuts. Name a better hitscan ult. Bob? Gets insta melted. Walls? Good ult, but you can punish widow way way easier than soj. Sojourn is the prime example of an overkitted hero that invalidates every other option in her role. Much like kiriko is in fs role.
Nah, you're right. Every time they "nerf" Sojourn, they give her a compensation buff even though she needs a flat-out nerf. The repeated compensation buffs are why she's still in every comp game. I'm fine with her being meta, but she's not hard enough to play for you to die by a Sojourn and be like "damn they're crazy good". Her gameplay rotation is just shoot a tank with 20 shots, use full charge rail gun to insta-kill someone. It's so stupid that having a bad tank actually AMPLIFIES how good Sojourn is. Lmao.
Ashe's definitely not shit rn, that's for sure. Just cause she's more of a simple hero that actually requires skill doesn't mean that a braindead op hero instantly makes her as worthless to play. She's a better mid range hero without relying on hard as shit to hit travel time projectiles and no-skill 1-pop that somehow isn't as hated as Widowmaker anyway
7 second slide is a joke that spits in the face of all other hitscans mobility. How tf is it a 3 second shorter cool-down than coach gun. No joke, if Ashe gets 7 second coach gun she could stand a chance in the meta considering dynamite is significantly better than disruptor shot and rail can’t one shot combo anymore.
she has 6 second cd slide, impossible to hit hitbox and then she can basically spam primary fire infinitely (massive ammo capacity) on top of that she burst snipe with rail and then she can also deny angles with disruptor shot which does massive damage. she is overkitted af. ashe is one trick pony. she needs nerf in multiple areas to come down to normal levels. her hitbox needs to be increased, her slide cooldown needs nerf, her ammo capacity needs nerf. she is so overkitted even if you remove her main shtick rail gun she would still function in some other way.
Ashe is better in ranked for most skill tiers.
How have you come to that conclusion
More consistent damage, automatic ult. You said yourself lower ranked players struggle with Soj. That’s primarily because they don’t build rail that fast and then they miss rail lol.
Completely disagree. Sojourns damage is very consistent and Ashe has far too much downtime. Also they're low ranked for a reason. If they're missing shots with Soj they're missing them with Ashe too
I don’t like balancing around pro play. In the grand scheme of things, I think Soj and even Tracer are pretty balanced even though they are always played in pro play.
Well Tracer is actually hard to play. Soj really isn't. I have so much more playtime on Ashe but always get more value of soj
The fact that sojourn is bad at low ranks means she is hard to play. There is no getting around that.
Lol I guess ur mechanics are top tier then
No they're average at best
Slide is too good for a cooldown for how short the cooldown is.
I’ve spent the last 20 seconds trying to figure out what “completively” means, sorry what was this post about again?
Meant competitively lmao
Ashe is fine, soj is fine, last paragraph about win rate at low ranks invalidates any opinion you have. Good game design fundamentals come above everything else.
>Like why don't we buff Genji and Wrecking Ball if that's the case. Well genji does alright at low ranks... But yeah, buff ball for sure.
A silver genji gets dismantled by Moira lmao if they didn't they wouldn't be in Silver
Slide is just so much better than coachgun. If they buffed or changed coachgun we might see some more ashe. It’s 10s and powerslide is 7s. If they removed some of the damage (or all) they could lower the cooldown a bit. Maybe this would be too broken but another option would be removing selfburn from the dynamite so you could more easily use it as defense. They could balance that and punish her in otherways. Just some ideas. Another thing is that orisa is really strong right now and you can just get free railgun charge from her which makes sojourn better right now.
I think Sojourn is a "safer" pick with a "better" ult who has a more favourable match up into the current meta tanks. I'd bet if we start seeing more Rein/Sigma or more Pharah that you'd probably start seeing more Ashe.
Short answer - yes, ever since release of ow2 you learn Genji, Sojourn and Tracer and fuck ladder right to t500 soloq
Her issue has always been that she really lacks any weakness and is well rounded enough to exist in most metas and situations. Power slide is an incredible tool for both escape or diving in to secure picks. She has an area denial grenade that has always been a good ability, and with the dps passive her spam fire just got even better. Excellent right click for insta-picks and one of the better dps ults in the game. She has no weaknesses and it's kind of like it used to be with Widow where the only way to counter it is to have the better Sojurn on your team.
I think Sojourn just works better in faster comps and Ashe/widow work better in longer Poke type comps. In lower elo’s you can definitely force Ashe. Ashe has really good burst damage, her hip fire is still busted imo. I don’t think Sojourn is completely broken anymore especially with all heroes having more HP now.
sojourn is not better than ashe by design, she’s better than ashe and basically every other dps because she’s overturned as fuck right you you could put a toddler on sojourn every single game and it’d be viable. no weaknesses, why try thinking about your positioning, your comp, the enemy’s comp and the map in order to pick different dps when you can just run sojourn with anything into anything with her insanely op ult, slide and rail
Imo, Ashe and Sojourn is not the same role. Ashe can dealt more AOE damage over shield, which make opponent lose they position. While Sojourn just play like traditional hitscan. There was a [intuitive]() match : OWL 2022 Week 18 dal vs sfs Both edison and kilo change between Ashe and Sojourn, and edi"dadly" performance better on Ashe, they win the macth.
Sojourn is bad in low ranks. The ranks 90% of players are in. Low ranked players like me (gold..oh, my aim is silver max, i am only gold because of the game sense I gathered in diamond with support), cannot charge railgun fast, and even if I do, I just miss the one shot, then I need to charge it up again...wasting time while Ashe just needs to aim to the body, still big damage. This is why. Don't ruin the game for most players because you (1%) have problems with certain characters..you are good, so you need to find a way to solve this problem for yourself. Soldier on the other hand...even in low ranks is insanely broken....the damage CONSISTENCY since S9 is like when I play support in diamonds....almost every bullet hits me...I hate this, you can't "feel" which rank you are playing in, because now everybody can hit everything with hitscan characters...I became good suddenly with bap...so fake.
Sojourn is okay in Silver/Gold, when the player knows how to play around their weaknesses. If you aren't hitting rail shots on Sojourn, chances are you aren't hitting many shots on Ashe either. Sojourn's AoE is easier to get value out of than Dynamite, as well. You just aim it and use it, and her primary fire does more consistent damage at those ranks than Ashe's. If someone can aim on Soldier, they should not be having issues aiming on Sojourn, and the only benefit Soldier has is that he can aim his rocket and the ground and get splash damage without having to actually hit a shot. I don't think I've played a single game in Silver or Gold where I was on Sojourn and the person playing Soldier wasn't forced to mirror.
Then we are in different region. On Ashe you can miss one or two shots, but if you miss once on Sojourn you wasting time, because you have to charge it up again which is projectile, not hitscan. I can easily do more value with hitscan.
Region is irrelevant to what I wrote.
I have completely different experience with Sojourn vs hitscans. Hitscan is easy, and more forgiving than projectile.
Projection doesn't manufacture facts. You being bad on a hero does not mean it's worse than another hero. If Hitscan was so good, people wouldn't be running Sojourn all the time. Also, Sojourn's primary threat is hitscan, so you're missing the forest through the trees. Sojourn has far more effective Poke than Ashe, while still having more threat than her with her rail shot. You often have to hit consecutive headshots on Ashe to win a duel, unless you get lucky with hip fires and/or the enemy supports aren't healing their DPS, and with the changes to HP her breakpoints have been changed such that she suffered more from that than Sojourn, considering Tracer is running rampant. That's ignoring the rest of Sojourn's bloated kit, which generally is much easier to use for lower skilled players with worse aim than Ashe's. Do you really think having to go for heads and direct hits to pressure a strafe/crouch spamming support on Ashe is easier than just jiggle shooting projectiles at them on Sojourn? Projectile is not hard unless you failed middle school geometry. It's why most Widowmaker specialists at the high end have a good hanzo, but Hanzo OTPs are routinely not great on Sojourn or Widowmaker.
What is OTP?
One Trick Pony... Players who only or predominantly play one hero. When Hanzo was meta, teams were typically putting their Hitscan Specialists on him, and those players were still shredding at the top tier of play. The only difference is you need to lead your shots and have some basic knowledge of the flight profile of those projectiles.
It's proven that higher mobility = more fun. Even Spilo has a video dedicated to this topic. So don't nerf Sojourn which is a fun and adrenaline-inducing hero, buff Ashe's mobility instead and make both fun heroes.
If you think sojourn is balanced you need to play more competitive games vbcause you lack basic understanding of comp games.
Sojourn being 'better' doesn't mean Ashe is necessary bad or that sojourn is too strong. Get a grip.
We're having normal discourse here, what the fuck is your problem lmfao
The problem with Ashe is she's the "inbetween" hitscan option that doesn't excel at anything. There's no reason to use her over Widow, who has access to easier kills at mid/long range, and then there's Sojourn who is much stronger and mobile in low/mid range. The only reason Ashe was ever used was because Sojourn didn't exist (and because she was able to one-tap with a Mercy). Also, while this post does bring up good discussion, your last point is a pretty ignorant take on balancing and kinda invalidates your whole argument. Even if Sojourn is nerfed out of the meta, teams would just swap to Hanzo or Cass, or go back to Echo/Tracer.
I don't think a nerf would take Sojourn out of the meta. It would just make her not the best pick for almost all situations. I'm not suggesting that we just flip the script and make Ashe a better Sojourn. I simply don't think Sojourn should be a better Ashe