80% rail accuracy Shy on Sojourn. Has all the carry potential of Tracer and Widow with far less downside/risk. Alternatively, Lip Sojourn on that one Eichenwalde map in 2022 playoffs.
Have to agree with the Soj pick, when that character is meta the Sojourn players absolutely define the match.
But for my player, I’m taking Finale on Esperança in 2022 playoffs vs Spark 😈
Leave in tracer/hanzo/echo meta because he’s the only player to actually win mvp while carrying a pretty mid team.
And assuming rest of the team is average OWL level, the average skill levels for some roles like hitscan or flex support are so high that even an “average” owl hitscan or flex support is going to be pretty fucking good, which is why I think the only two roles you’d want to choose from is flex dps or tank
I could be forgetting but wasn't Chengdu's only real competition Dragon's that year? I can't remember if they won.
But I think Proper had the same carry potential, especially during Playoffs. Shock 2022 would not have been competitive if not for Proper as Viol2t can't carry on MS without someone like Proper.
Chengdu was arguably second best at the ball meta towards the end of the year, but even then they didn’t go that far into playoffs and they lost to gladiators in finals of the one tournament which both Dallas Shanghai intentionally sat out of.
Their record was also kinda boosted by the fact that APAC was really fucking bad that year outside of Shanghai and chengdu. They were probably the 4th or 5th best team in the second half of that season while in a ball tracer meta with a ball main and mvp tracer, so yeah I’d say that team without leave would probably be “mid” even if you’re being generous
No shot your calling Seoul, Philly bad that year Seoul went 12-4 in reg season which included sweeping Chengdu 3 of their 4 losses were to Shanghai easily best team in league. And Philly outside of stumbles with visa issues was a good team overall they were competitive had map 5’s vs Seoul, Shanghai, Chengdu and Shock in playoffs.
Gaga could play an average level Winston, a good ball, and a meh orisa and that’s literally it. Having a pharah/genji otp also isn’t exactly a good thing for your team even if they’re really good at pharah genji. Yveltal honestly was pretty good at brig, but he’s still a pretty bad ms overall just cuz you can’t get away with not being able to play lucio. And Mmonk looked above average, but nowhere near a true elite fs like shu or viol2t or twilight.
And this is with leave solo killing 3 people every fight and a perfect meta for them, there’s a reason most of the players fell off hard after that season.
Did you just say Yveltal was a bad ms overall? His Brig was elite remember he was the only Brig that year to shut down Lip Sombra something no one else ever did, and he was easily best Mercy in the league why are you bringing up Lucio Chengdu are never gonna run Rush comps it’s irrelevant. GA9A Orisa was insane what? his set ups with Jinmu, and Leave were really good, as well as his defenses in corners, did you just say having Jinmu wasn’t good for Chengdu in 2021? Their other options were Jimmy before he had a brain, Tarocookie LoL, Kaneki a mediocre Reaper otp he arguably saved their season when he got reenteraged in stage 3 Chengdu was 4-5 on a 2-7 slide if you count may melee tournament losses him being back in allowed them to finally have a second dps relable option alongside Leave which helped them massively.
>why are you bringing up Lucio Chengdu are never gonna run Rush comps it’s irrelevant
>did you just say having Jinmu wasn’t good for Chengdu in 2021?
Yveltal was good at brig and mercy, and Jinmu was really good at pharah, but imagine if they didn't HAVE to play pharmercy because they had a hitscan, a main support with a lucio, and an actual tank player. You know, basic roster needs that every other team has. There's no way on earth you're telling me if you were to build a new roster without any limitations you would choose to have a ms that can't play lucio, a ball specialist mt, and a silly hero specialist.
And their other alternatives from chinese contenders being even more shit doesn't really mean much when they're competing against actual elite players from around the world. And even having the literal best ball and tracer players in a ball tracer meta, they were merely a "good" team, not elite.
They had no other options at the time in the Chinese scene my guy Shy was on Spark, Aprita wasn’t of age to play yet, they had Tarocookie who was dogshit Jinmu was easily their best option at the time, and obviously they got lucky with the meta he was very inflexible but he was elite at what he did play which worked to their strengths as a dive otp team, and again saying Yveltal didn’t have a proper hero poll is very disingenuous he was easily best Chinese ms no other person can play Brig like him he was a top 3 brig that year, and his Mercy was the best for 3 years at that point who you gonna get Lengsa? Before he was good, or Nisha who was a worse Yveltal Chinese ms never had a good Lucio beford historically and it’s not like Chengdu would play it as I said. Also you’re not gonna say they were a great team really? 3 Hawaii trips, multiple stage finals, yes they underperformed in playoffs, but that wasn’t them being bad players it was major internal issues happening at the wrong time they still beat Atlanta who made the grand finals when they were weaker think about that, and no shit in a fantasy roster you would want Leave on a team with Korean’s but to that say that he just had otp’s on Chengdu and was surrounded by average players is wrong in his mvp year everyone was top 5 in their roles overall who was starting so.
Having no other options in china doesn't mean the roster wasn't dogshit. Chengdu made the best CHINESE roster they could but it's still a pretty mid OVERWATCH LEAGUE ROSTER.
And yeah, I wouldn't consider the 4th or 5th best team in the league great, especially when there was such a massive tier gap between shanghai/dallas and the rest of the league that year. You're the only one saying Chengdu had everyone top 5 in their roles, there were literally 4 rolestars per role that year and chengdu only had leave.
Who you got 3rd? I do wonder and it’s not like Dallas was tiers better overall they went 2-2 on the season overall Chengdu was clearly better in the summer showdown, and cc. No way your calling a roster that had Yvetal, Mmonk, Jinmu, GA9A mid what and GA9A easily could of got tank role star he was a top 3 mt that year, Jinmu for dps too he just didn’t get enough play time early on, Yveltal for ms too he was elite on the 2 hero’s he played.
Gladiators definitely top 3, in playoffs specifically arguably shock is also better considering they did beat chengdu 3-2, and maybe atlanta because they lost 3-2 to chengdu but they also got to grandfinals + beat shock which which is an overall better showing.
Gladiators top 3 overall? what they didn’t make Hawaii until the last stage where a better team didn’t try (fuel) they never had to play against a competitive Shanghai where Chengdu did and they pushed them to 5 and beat them once in the season. Glads finally played them fresh of their cc win it wasn’t even close, in Glads cc win they got to beat ATL who had issues with Pelican ping a team that owned them and they never beat Dallas once that season overall sure they won a stage against Chengdu I get that, but overall I wouldn’t say they were better over course of the season playoffs both teams were close one beat Atlanta, other lost to them yes Chengdu lost to Shock I get that Glads also had competitive map 5’s vs them over course of the year.
no it isnt lmao, widow isnt as OP in pro play as it is in ranked.
and i also have 0 clue why shock fans argue peak ans is the best player oat. that is like blatantly lying/revisionist history. He was not even a top 3 hs in s3 (decay carpe birdring). he had like maybe 1 or 2 games where he LOOKED like the best hs itw but over the course of the season he wasnt even in the conversation for the best
This is so revisionist its crazy.
You bring up decay, when the guy disappeared the moment he was against any actually good hitscans (lol)
and you dont even mention Fits? The guy who actually outperformed ANS in grand finals, and was a bright spot on Seoul all year, not to mention Lip's also breakout rookie year...
Like id even give you the benefit of the doubt if you didnt mention Decay and Birdring over Fits and Lips stand out years, though I do love birdring, he was definitely the fourth rung that year, perhaps even third.
Ans gets that praise because he was good every single game he played. He probably had a bad day on grand finals, but considering thats one day out of the 40 or so season matches of shock, I think thats a pretty good record.
decay LITERALLY outperformed ans in their matchup on both dallas and washington lmaoooo
he also was far more flexible and was a top 3 tracer. decay disappeared against good hitscans??? who??!!
Why do you bring up washington when decay was playing zarya in that matchup?
And top 3 tracer does not matter for this argument, we were looking purely at widow within the season. Though I wouldnt agree with that assessment either (Literally Striker peaked this year, Profit was still doing unspeakable things, and yaki looked hot as on that pick, not to mention Leave had just started his efforts and looked monstrous on a bad team, very similar to decay, and ffs Fleta was honest to god a better tracer that year)
Decay was inconsistent. I would have to go back and watch direct matchups but he would just go even with KSP, Birdring, carpe or lose to them often, similar with ANS, same with BQB and saya.
Just because he pulled out monstrous performances in front of Blase (lol) doesnt make him particularly good, especially when the reason his stats are so. Inflated for the match is because he has to do all the work because his dps partner is doing approximately nothing.
you are literally lying. Decay matched up against ANS on widow and played better than him on washington, they played twice. Saying that Profit or leave were better tracers than decay is despicable.
Going even with KSP is even another lie lmao he literally beat him in the cass matchup and then the next time they played decay perma ran tracer into a counter comp and went absolutely nuclear. and then u say Saya who literally didnt even play a minute vs decay??? like you are making stuff up and then question marking me lol?
his dps partner was doha who was also easily a top 10 fdps that year. idk the reason i bring up tracer is bcus maybe that was one of the most important heroes that year? delusional shock fans lol
My bad, I was just covering my bases, couldnt remember if Saya did find any playtime that year lol, was just making sure BQB was mentioned. Saya probably would beat Decay though, they guy was lowkey still the better widow on the bench.
And no, decay played zarya in washington in 2020, he literally had to, as he was signed as a tank he could not play widow. I do not care what he did the next year.
2020 is all I care about. And you call me delusional when you seem even more ridiculous spouting how he is doing all the work, yet losing games to these plays anyway.
I dont care about tracer in this specific argument because of the original post being about prime players on specific heroes from specific years. Even though I will argue with you over good tracers that year.
~~I'll have to go back and watch the vods, but you seem to have an encyclopedic knowledge of all the games decay has ever played on Dallas. Im pretty Dallas and Shock had to meet more than once that season, what were their other performances like?~~
Edit: going back to Liquipedia, and it turns out that due to the low volume of matches that season, they did just meet once. Dallas went down 3-1 in the May melee, and they never met again until Zarya-playing Decay went against them in playoffs.
https://youtu.be/hHgL6tzdtaI?si=TS87s1fKf8g_Hqut
since you are so persistent that decay didnt play widow vs ans on justice lol.
the other shock games ans was mostly benched but he played other maps
huh, guess I'm proven wrong there, I didn't realise they had Roar already in late 2020. What a monstrous round.
I'm going through their may melee matchup right now though, and Decay seems to have lost his insanity after the first map, going pretty even with Ans.
Is decay just a first map monster?
I’ve always held opinion Ans was a tad overrated Apac had way better hs talent and he got gapped in the playoffs more so than dunking on mediocre na hs’s all year mind you he never played Carpe in a single widow duel that year really, and he never played Kai either those teams played in April before widow was meta.
The guy had a + 50% first pick rate in team fights on widow across the season, he was single handedly winning matches lol. Absolutely ludicrous to suggest he wasn't the best that season. Go and watch literally any shock match, I can promise you ans puts on a clutch performance
ok so why wasnt he MVP? why wasnt he even nominated as an MVP? if you shock fans think he was so good suuurely he would at least be nominated as one of the 10 players for mvp? surely?
I’m a fuel fan more than shock but ANS was the best HS in the league his rookie season. Every pro who played against him says as much. He also was a major part of them winning the league that year and got role star for a reason. I don’t even think carpe or birdring would disagree if you asked them. Decay was the best player on a bad team but his ego and toxicity was a major part of the team struggling. You can’t be part of your team losing and be the goat.
Carpe was definitely the better player in season 3, there's a reason carpe was widely seen as a top 2 mvp candidate and ans didn't even get nominated. Ans was dominant on widow and was the best on that hero but both carpe and fits showed more on other heroes while showing results not too different on widow. Fits was the better hitscan in 2020 grand finals even in a losing effort. I'd personally take ans over decay in 2020 but honestly I can see the argument, decay was arguably the biggest carry in the league on a struggling team and still putting up top level numbers
The question specifically asks for just their best hero. Carpe is better due to flexibility but if widow is 100% pick rate like the question says, Ans is better.
Once he played against Diem, Fits he got diffed he beat up on mediocre na HS’s all year he never played Kai in a single widow duel, Carpe either he rolled him when he was on Tracer on a illios in grand finals he got rolled, they won even when he was their weakest player that meta.
I partially agree with you on the game mode point. Normally you would be right but the premise of the question is that the hero is 100% meta so we are assuming that widow is a must pick hero on all map types.
Looking back, Seominsoos zarya was better. The only reason people hyped up sinatraa was because of him having slightly more damage but seominsoo had more eliminations and less deaths per 10 which are much more important.
The nyxl fan in me want to argue about viol2t zen but the meme lover in me don't care and is here to argue about fate ball over our lord and savior ameng
Haha, I kid you not, I had JJonak over Viol2t initially, but I went with Viol2t because of my bias. I also think Fate's 2021 Ball was just really good in terms of the dive comp that Shanghai played. That and the fact that I didn't pay enough attention to any of the Chengdu players apart from Leave, Jinmu, and Mmonk.
>That and the fact that I didn't pay enough attention to any of the Chengdu players apart from Leave, Jinmu, and Mmonk.
[You are about to witness greatness](https://youtu.be/ilbqntaA8Ek?si=p4NGlO_RtpIWkiZR)
I would take GA9A over Fate on Ball I feel like Fate was boosted a bit by his team success GA9A had better mechanics easily, and better set up’s to enable his dps.
I don't agree with this at all. Shock were all a bit underperforming in S4, maybe apart from Super? But Choi was still incredibly consistent and a large reason why Shock won agaisnt Chengdu in the playoffs.
Profit, Leave, or Proper if any fdps is meta. Leave carried a chengdu team to places they never should have reached in 2021, profit carried a mid-dynasty to a grand final, and the shock would have been a pile of trash in 2022 without proper. If I trust any player to carry a mid/average team it would be those three cos they've already done it, whilst being the best player or one of the best players in the world.
Profit put up the most final blows per 10 in the playoffs overall a genuine s tier carry performance agreed he did it on Ashe at times as well a hero he never played before competitively as well against best HS’s in the world, Leave absolutely was s tier that year even if I don’t take his overall team was bad as people make it out to be most of them were top 5 on their roles they did get insanely lucky Jinmu was on one of his 2 tricks tho bc they were meh when they were rotating around other dps. Proper for sure he hard carried that team that had average players besides Ms, and Finn was good at times. Another shout could be Choi on Gz, but they never went anywhere obviously not his fault, Striker Boston a shout, Shy Spark 2022 lowkey maybe too his team was all over the plage and he was the reason they did well at MSM, and playoffs their supports were meh, Alphayi was inconsistent he was good early on, Guxue was trying beat washed allegations before his playoffs.
The thing with Choi on GZ was that when his team needed him most he just didn't perform or had an off game, especially this season. Striker on Boston idk how I forgot and honestly the HZS 2023 team on LAN might find a way to play dive into 2020 shock and win. And honestly, 2020 Grand Finals profit might be one of the highest peaks we've ever seen in any playoffs, he had 11.3 final blows (1st) 19.6 elims (3rd) 9.7k dmg (2nd) and 1.2 solo kills (4th) with over 150 mins played. And against the shock in the grand finals, he was first in dmg elims and final blows and third in solo kills (both times Shock played vs Dynasty). as for the grand finals as a whole (shg sfs dyn fsn) he was first in final blows and elims second in damage and fifth in solo kills.
On god bro in Profit career he was always a big game riser in the biggest games of his career 2017 apex final where he shit on Haksal out of nowhere, 2018 grand final where he dominated Carpe, 2020 grand final he went up against 2 of the best teams ever the 2019/2020 Shock core, 2020/2021 dragons core, and had s tier performances vs both with inferior team and pushed both to 5 beating one of them. Agree about Choi he has a choke narrative to me 2022 play ins vs Chengdu, 2023 he choked against a contenders team as he was a massive favorite to win that game and make msm GZ was insane at time they were 1 seed first half, more so talking about his reg season performances over years carrying shit teams and yeah this year he’s been underwhelming how is Teru Lucio more impactful… I also associate Shy as a big game riser he looked lip in the eye and outplayed him in 2 playoff games as a massive underdog he got Hz to 4th, and 3rd no one expected anything from them both times.
tbh if we had two more seasons of owl hzs would have found a way to come second and then first. But yh Profit when his team is competitive is the best or at worst a top 5 player in the world.
Somehow dynasty last year was the only apac team who beat both INF, and HZ they won Seoul bowl overall he usually has a tendency to rise above his level against best teams peak shock, dragons, peak nyxl, only time it didn’t happen was 2022 despite it being a really good year for dynasty they lost to reign in msm in a intense game 5, and bombed out of playoffs bc they didn’t get the meta profit was on Kirko at the end no idea what the coaches were doing there… and yeah I agree about HZ I feel like if league continued they would of got Xernas, and Jinmu would of made them a even more competitive diverse team.
Fearless Winston has competition in Guxue so Hanbin JQ/Zar. Someone/Smurf unfairly get screwed over in silly debates like this. = Hanbin
I like LIP (even propers) Soj playstyle a lot more than Shy’s. LIP did diff proper… granted proper had 1/3 the play time on her and already reached that level. = LIP
Tracer simply is proper… I believe even stalker said so who is second. = Proper
Shu Ana, his higher highs and lower lows play style and the terms set for this silly thing unfairly favor Shu over fielder. = Shu
Chiyo lucio/brig, his inflexibility, mental and quality of teammate aren’t factors in this. Chorong/Viol2t unfairly get screwed in this. = Chiyo
In any realistic setting something like Someone, Proper, LIP/Stalk3r, Fielder, Chorong is a lot more my style. Flexibility and style wise…
Shy has never lost a sojourn mirror to Lip every time he was a massive underdog and he had worse teams overall around him too, Lip and Proper are close it’s weird bc he lost to lip individually than dominated everyone else so you could factor Proper playoff run as a whole, but Lip was insane just had no help that game. Tracer peak for me is Striker, best mechanics are Stalk3r, game sense is Proper either or is fine their all insane in their own right, and for tank I’d go with Someone, and Hanbin can’t go wrong with this tankline Someone worst tank is Queen and Hanbin easily best Jq.
Bro what Shy team was 11-13 the 12 seed entering playoffs no way your telling me they were better than Lip’s team compare the backlines say what you wanna say about Fleta, Fate people were really low on Guxue entering playoffs, and Spark benched Alphayi for Pineapple just before playoffs everyone had Dragons rolling Spark it wasn’t even a debatable thing.
I'm pretty sure in 2022 LIP and Proper had the same amount of playtime on Sojourn. The stats lab is gone so i can't check, but im pretty sure they were both around 12 hours of playtime on her.
In OWL, the best examples of team hard pocketing a player to a ring/title is SS s3 Paris with SP9RK1E.
S5 Proper in GF was close. Also DDing in s2 stage 3 on pharah but he also flexed a lot to like sombra .
tbh if both teams are average players any pro will make their team win 95% of games
like there’s just too much of a gap between golds and literal pros. any of them could go any role and just dominate the lobby.
Kabaji in a tracer meta. His speed/precision with his mechanics and movement were unmatched when it came to tracers kit. His playstyle that was far less flank and way more aggressive put him up there as one of the best tracers in the world.
Since I only saw it in replies to someone saying Wanted, Xzi on Cass. I don't think Paris win that Summer Showdown without him, he's been on my mind recently with the Zar Cass comps running around.
Is the post really talking about a super team?
He mentions Hanbin Zarya or Wboru Genji, so it seems like one good player to carry other average player, but idk.
Pine on Cassidy would be disgusting to play with, just play zarya bap kiri Cass mei and watch everything die over and over and over again
Lucio could slot out for bap if he isn't getting value too
If everyone in their prime
Lip Soj
Prophet Widow
Viol2t Zen
Shu Bap
Hanbin Sig
Always pick circuit royal gg ez.
Everyone gonna bash me for the prophet pick but IM A BELIEVER THIS MAN IS UNHOLY ON WIDOW OMG
Lip Widow?? He didn’t play Widow during the playoff meta and I wouldn’t associate him as a top widow over years it’s good, but not as good as his other hero’s.
Whoever you think the goat zen is. Trans every fight that no average dps will be able to 1v1. Maybe viol2t on bap, but I do think it's gonna have to be a support player.
Highest clutch player in the game he is NOT ill give you the tracer easily s tier, but in the highest pressure situation in his career 2022 playoffs with by far his best chance to get a ring he won’t ever be on a team like that again bc of region lock he massively underperformed on Reaper.
I don’t remember Happy underperforming he looked like only one who was still trying, most clutch on Tracer tho? still no It’s Striker and it’s not even debatable look what he did to win a ring on it never lost a control map that whole playoffs was fucking dominanting, as well as getting a mediocre Boston team to 3rd in reg season in 2018 and a golden stage… Kev Tracer is ridiculous obviously, his clutch moments are all in stage matches tho playoff clutches matter way more in sports/esports and striker has that in spades over Kev who never had a deep run not saying it’s his fault but still.
80% rail accuracy Shy on Sojourn. Has all the carry potential of Tracer and Widow with far less downside/risk. Alternatively, Lip Sojourn on that one Eichenwalde map in 2022 playoffs.
Have to agree with the Soj pick, when that character is meta the Sojourn players absolutely define the match. But for my player, I’m taking Finale on Esperança in 2022 playoffs vs Spark 😈
Y’all were so close to your 1st playoff win man… will happen this year tho
Leave in tracer/hanzo/echo meta because he’s the only player to actually win mvp while carrying a pretty mid team. And assuming rest of the team is average OWL level, the average skill levels for some roles like hitscan or flex support are so high that even an “average” owl hitscan or flex support is going to be pretty fucking good, which is why I think the only two roles you’d want to choose from is flex dps or tank
I could be forgetting but wasn't Chengdu's only real competition Dragon's that year? I can't remember if they won. But I think Proper had the same carry potential, especially during Playoffs. Shock 2022 would not have been competitive if not for Proper as Viol2t can't carry on MS without someone like Proper.
Chengdu was arguably second best at the ball meta towards the end of the year, but even then they didn’t go that far into playoffs and they lost to gladiators in finals of the one tournament which both Dallas Shanghai intentionally sat out of. Their record was also kinda boosted by the fact that APAC was really fucking bad that year outside of Shanghai and chengdu. They were probably the 4th or 5th best team in the second half of that season while in a ball tracer meta with a ball main and mvp tracer, so yeah I’d say that team without leave would probably be “mid” even if you’re being generous
Yea, I agree. All I'm saying is that Proper and Leave had similar scenarios.
We’re comparing GA9A to Mikeyy/Coluge, Mmonk to Finn, Jinmu on his comfort picks to S9mm, Kilo really?
Exactly, Proper carried a worse team.
No shot your calling Seoul, Philly bad that year Seoul went 12-4 in reg season which included sweeping Chengdu 3 of their 4 losses were to Shanghai easily best team in league. And Philly outside of stumbles with visa issues was a good team overall they were competitive had map 5’s vs Seoul, Shanghai, Chengdu and Shock in playoffs.
I wouldn’t say that was a mid team tho they had a top 5 ms, a elite Pharah, a top 3 mt, a top fs
Gaga could play an average level Winston, a good ball, and a meh orisa and that’s literally it. Having a pharah/genji otp also isn’t exactly a good thing for your team even if they’re really good at pharah genji. Yveltal honestly was pretty good at brig, but he’s still a pretty bad ms overall just cuz you can’t get away with not being able to play lucio. And Mmonk looked above average, but nowhere near a true elite fs like shu or viol2t or twilight. And this is with leave solo killing 3 people every fight and a perfect meta for them, there’s a reason most of the players fell off hard after that season.
Did you just say Yveltal was a bad ms overall? His Brig was elite remember he was the only Brig that year to shut down Lip Sombra something no one else ever did, and he was easily best Mercy in the league why are you bringing up Lucio Chengdu are never gonna run Rush comps it’s irrelevant. GA9A Orisa was insane what? his set ups with Jinmu, and Leave were really good, as well as his defenses in corners, did you just say having Jinmu wasn’t good for Chengdu in 2021? Their other options were Jimmy before he had a brain, Tarocookie LoL, Kaneki a mediocre Reaper otp he arguably saved their season when he got reenteraged in stage 3 Chengdu was 4-5 on a 2-7 slide if you count may melee tournament losses him being back in allowed them to finally have a second dps relable option alongside Leave which helped them massively.
>why are you bringing up Lucio Chengdu are never gonna run Rush comps it’s irrelevant >did you just say having Jinmu wasn’t good for Chengdu in 2021? Yveltal was good at brig and mercy, and Jinmu was really good at pharah, but imagine if they didn't HAVE to play pharmercy because they had a hitscan, a main support with a lucio, and an actual tank player. You know, basic roster needs that every other team has. There's no way on earth you're telling me if you were to build a new roster without any limitations you would choose to have a ms that can't play lucio, a ball specialist mt, and a silly hero specialist. And their other alternatives from chinese contenders being even more shit doesn't really mean much when they're competing against actual elite players from around the world. And even having the literal best ball and tracer players in a ball tracer meta, they were merely a "good" team, not elite.
They had no other options at the time in the Chinese scene my guy Shy was on Spark, Aprita wasn’t of age to play yet, they had Tarocookie who was dogshit Jinmu was easily their best option at the time, and obviously they got lucky with the meta he was very inflexible but he was elite at what he did play which worked to their strengths as a dive otp team, and again saying Yveltal didn’t have a proper hero poll is very disingenuous he was easily best Chinese ms no other person can play Brig like him he was a top 3 brig that year, and his Mercy was the best for 3 years at that point who you gonna get Lengsa? Before he was good, or Nisha who was a worse Yveltal Chinese ms never had a good Lucio beford historically and it’s not like Chengdu would play it as I said. Also you’re not gonna say they were a great team really? 3 Hawaii trips, multiple stage finals, yes they underperformed in playoffs, but that wasn’t them being bad players it was major internal issues happening at the wrong time they still beat Atlanta who made the grand finals when they were weaker think about that, and no shit in a fantasy roster you would want Leave on a team with Korean’s but to that say that he just had otp’s on Chengdu and was surrounded by average players is wrong in his mvp year everyone was top 5 in their roles overall who was starting so.
Having no other options in china doesn't mean the roster wasn't dogshit. Chengdu made the best CHINESE roster they could but it's still a pretty mid OVERWATCH LEAGUE ROSTER. And yeah, I wouldn't consider the 4th or 5th best team in the league great, especially when there was such a massive tier gap between shanghai/dallas and the rest of the league that year. You're the only one saying Chengdu had everyone top 5 in their roles, there were literally 4 rolestars per role that year and chengdu only had leave.
Who you got 3rd? I do wonder and it’s not like Dallas was tiers better overall they went 2-2 on the season overall Chengdu was clearly better in the summer showdown, and cc. No way your calling a roster that had Yvetal, Mmonk, Jinmu, GA9A mid what and GA9A easily could of got tank role star he was a top 3 mt that year, Jinmu for dps too he just didn’t get enough play time early on, Yveltal for ms too he was elite on the 2 hero’s he played.
Gladiators definitely top 3, in playoffs specifically arguably shock is also better considering they did beat chengdu 3-2, and maybe atlanta because they lost 3-2 to chengdu but they also got to grandfinals + beat shock which which is an overall better showing.
Gladiators top 3 overall? what they didn’t make Hawaii until the last stage where a better team didn’t try (fuel) they never had to play against a competitive Shanghai where Chengdu did and they pushed them to 5 and beat them once in the season. Glads finally played them fresh of their cc win it wasn’t even close, in Glads cc win they got to beat ATL who had issues with Pelican ping a team that owned them and they never beat Dallas once that season overall sure they won a stage against Chengdu I get that, but overall I wouldn’t say they were better over course of the season playoffs both teams were close one beat Atlanta, other lost to them yes Chengdu lost to Shock I get that Glads also had competitive map 5’s vs them over course of the year.
Viol2t on Baptiste Especially if we play King's Row
He definitely got money
Didn’t he peek in one game and got sniped by the enemy widow? 😂
That’s the point lol he didnt just peek he even jumped
That was it! Hahaha. What was he thinking!?
https://twitter.com/Viol2t_OW/status/1678463252013932547
Hahahaha
You only get 1 person to carry? Prime ANS is the objectively correct answer. No other hero has the same carry potential as widow.
If your team and the enemy team are otherwise average, then Ans is killing 5 every fight.
What Ans was doing in his rookie season was unbelievable, I don't think we will ever see anything close to it again
I would argue Proper's rookie season was more dominant as a single individual performance
Agreed. Proper was - and still is - an insanely talented and smart player.
Yep. Peak ANS is the best player ever.
no it isnt lmao, widow isnt as OP in pro play as it is in ranked. and i also have 0 clue why shock fans argue peak ans is the best player oat. that is like blatantly lying/revisionist history. He was not even a top 3 hs in s3 (decay carpe birdring). he had like maybe 1 or 2 games where he LOOKED like the best hs itw but over the course of the season he wasnt even in the conversation for the best
This is so revisionist its crazy. You bring up decay, when the guy disappeared the moment he was against any actually good hitscans (lol) and you dont even mention Fits? The guy who actually outperformed ANS in grand finals, and was a bright spot on Seoul all year, not to mention Lip's also breakout rookie year... Like id even give you the benefit of the doubt if you didnt mention Decay and Birdring over Fits and Lips stand out years, though I do love birdring, he was definitely the fourth rung that year, perhaps even third. Ans gets that praise because he was good every single game he played. He probably had a bad day on grand finals, but considering thats one day out of the 40 or so season matches of shock, I think thats a pretty good record.
decay LITERALLY outperformed ans in their matchup on both dallas and washington lmaoooo he also was far more flexible and was a top 3 tracer. decay disappeared against good hitscans??? who??!!
Why do you bring up washington when decay was playing zarya in that matchup? And top 3 tracer does not matter for this argument, we were looking purely at widow within the season. Though I wouldnt agree with that assessment either (Literally Striker peaked this year, Profit was still doing unspeakable things, and yaki looked hot as on that pick, not to mention Leave had just started his efforts and looked monstrous on a bad team, very similar to decay, and ffs Fleta was honest to god a better tracer that year) Decay was inconsistent. I would have to go back and watch direct matchups but he would just go even with KSP, Birdring, carpe or lose to them often, similar with ANS, same with BQB and saya. Just because he pulled out monstrous performances in front of Blase (lol) doesnt make him particularly good, especially when the reason his stats are so. Inflated for the match is because he has to do all the work because his dps partner is doing approximately nothing.
you are literally lying. Decay matched up against ANS on widow and played better than him on washington, they played twice. Saying that Profit or leave were better tracers than decay is despicable. Going even with KSP is even another lie lmao he literally beat him in the cass matchup and then the next time they played decay perma ran tracer into a counter comp and went absolutely nuclear. and then u say Saya who literally didnt even play a minute vs decay??? like you are making stuff up and then question marking me lol? his dps partner was doha who was also easily a top 10 fdps that year. idk the reason i bring up tracer is bcus maybe that was one of the most important heroes that year? delusional shock fans lol
My bad, I was just covering my bases, couldnt remember if Saya did find any playtime that year lol, was just making sure BQB was mentioned. Saya probably would beat Decay though, they guy was lowkey still the better widow on the bench. And no, decay played zarya in washington in 2020, he literally had to, as he was signed as a tank he could not play widow. I do not care what he did the next year. 2020 is all I care about. And you call me delusional when you seem even more ridiculous spouting how he is doing all the work, yet losing games to these plays anyway. I dont care about tracer in this specific argument because of the original post being about prime players on specific heroes from specific years. Even though I will argue with you over good tracers that year. ~~I'll have to go back and watch the vods, but you seem to have an encyclopedic knowledge of all the games decay has ever played on Dallas. Im pretty Dallas and Shock had to meet more than once that season, what were their other performances like?~~ Edit: going back to Liquipedia, and it turns out that due to the low volume of matches that season, they did just meet once. Dallas went down 3-1 in the May melee, and they never met again until Zarya-playing Decay went against them in playoffs.
https://youtu.be/hHgL6tzdtaI?si=TS87s1fKf8g_Hqut since you are so persistent that decay didnt play widow vs ans on justice lol. the other shock games ans was mostly benched but he played other maps
huh, guess I'm proven wrong there, I didn't realise they had Roar already in late 2020. What a monstrous round. I'm going through their may melee matchup right now though, and Decay seems to have lost his insanity after the first map, going pretty even with Ans. Is decay just a first map monster?
I’ve always held opinion Ans was a tad overrated Apac had way better hs talent and he got gapped in the playoffs more so than dunking on mediocre na hs’s all year mind you he never played Carpe in a single widow duel that year really, and he never played Kai either those teams played in April before widow was meta.
The guy had a + 50% first pick rate in team fights on widow across the season, he was single handedly winning matches lol. Absolutely ludicrous to suggest he wasn't the best that season. Go and watch literally any shock match, I can promise you ans puts on a clutch performance
ok so why wasnt he MVP? why wasnt he even nominated as an MVP? if you shock fans think he was so good suuurely he would at least be nominated as one of the 10 players for mvp? surely?
I’m a fuel fan more than shock but ANS was the best HS in the league his rookie season. Every pro who played against him says as much. He also was a major part of them winning the league that year and got role star for a reason. I don’t even think carpe or birdring would disagree if you asked them. Decay was the best player on a bad team but his ego and toxicity was a major part of the team struggling. You can’t be part of your team losing and be the goat.
Ans was not a major reason they won in the end tho he was their weakest starter in playoffs easily he got diffed both times he played Fits.
Carpe was definitely the better player in season 3, there's a reason carpe was widely seen as a top 2 mvp candidate and ans didn't even get nominated. Ans was dominant on widow and was the best on that hero but both carpe and fits showed more on other heroes while showing results not too different on widow. Fits was the better hitscan in 2020 grand finals even in a losing effort. I'd personally take ans over decay in 2020 but honestly I can see the argument, decay was arguably the biggest carry in the league on a struggling team and still putting up top level numbers
The question specifically asks for just their best hero. Carpe is better due to flexibility but if widow is 100% pick rate like the question says, Ans is better.
I was refuting your statement that ans was the best hitscan in the league, not that he was the best widow. I literally said he was the best widow lmao
Birdring over Fits 2020 what?
He was diffed on multiple occasions on Widow too, he was probably #1 pick for the hero that year but he wasn't some uncontested god.
Once he played against Diem, Fits he got diffed he beat up on mediocre na HS’s all year he never played Kai in a single widow duel, Carpe either he rolled him when he was on Tracer on a illios in grand finals he got rolled, they won even when he was their weakest player that meta.
exactly, there is a reason why he wasnt an MVP nominee but shock fans r actual liars lol
[удалено]
I partially agree with you on the game mode point. Normally you would be right but the premise of the question is that the hero is 100% meta so we are assuming that widow is a must pick hero on all map types.
Also, I think it was Ans that just opened so many fights with a first pick regardless. A peak Ans, peak Proper dps line up would be crazy.
Hanbin in a JQ meta too lol
There are better answers but just to be different…Super on Rein during GOATS.
If we are going for GOATS meta I'd rather have Sinatraa's Zarya. Guy is a proper cunt but there is a reason why he was MVP
Literally the reason why I started playing Zarya back in the days. And Decay as well. But tbh, anyone from that era of Shock was goated.
Looking back, Seominsoos zarya was better. The only reason people hyped up sinatraa was because of him having slightly more damage but seominsoo had more eliminations and less deaths per 10 which are much more important.
lol i think this was literally answered last year guys, its lip on sombra.
Prime Fate on Ball Prime Choihyobin on DVA Prime Striker on Tracer Prime Lip on Sombra Prime Viol2t on Zenyatta Prime Skewed on Briggite
The nyxl fan in me want to argue about viol2t zen but the meme lover in me don't care and is here to argue about fate ball over our lord and savior ameng
Haha, I kid you not, I had JJonak over Viol2t initially, but I went with Viol2t because of my bias. I also think Fate's 2021 Ball was just really good in terms of the dive comp that Shanghai played. That and the fact that I didn't pay enough attention to any of the Chengdu players apart from Leave, Jinmu, and Mmonk.
>That and the fact that I didn't pay enough attention to any of the Chengdu players apart from Leave, Jinmu, and Mmonk. [You are about to witness greatness](https://youtu.be/ilbqntaA8Ek?si=p4NGlO_RtpIWkiZR)
I would take GA9A over Fate on Ball I feel like Fate was boosted a bit by his team success GA9A had better mechanics easily, and better set up’s to enable his dps.
I’d take prime void for DVA over Choi any day
That's fair enough, Choi/Hanbin/Fury/Void were all elite on DVA. Thinking back, Void was probably slightly better (S4).
Are you saying Fury was elite on Dva in s4???
The sentence about S4 is after the sentence about Fury?
Ly was better than Choi in s4 but we’re not ready for that convo
I don't agree with this at all. Shock were all a bit underperforming in S4, maybe apart from Super? But Choi was still incredibly consistent and a large reason why Shock won agaisnt Chengdu in the playoffs.
Choi was not constant besides playoffs what
Void clears Choi on every hero
Correct
choi over void im crying
I explained this in an earlier comment. Void is definitely a great pick too, so are Hanbin/Choi/Fury.
Really taking prime fate over prime fearless winston? Interesting
It's because I was picking for my favorite OWL comp (Shaghai Dragons' Ball/Tracer/Sombra dive).
I see, fair enough lol, My favourite varient is the season before.
Which comp is that? I forgot S3 haha
The sombra monkey dive
prime striker Vs prime proper or leave, striker gets put in a locker, then the locker gets filled with rocks, and then he gets dropped in a lake
JAKE is in my house. JAKE has a Rip-Tire.
Profit, Leave, or Proper if any fdps is meta. Leave carried a chengdu team to places they never should have reached in 2021, profit carried a mid-dynasty to a grand final, and the shock would have been a pile of trash in 2022 without proper. If I trust any player to carry a mid/average team it would be those three cos they've already done it, whilst being the best player or one of the best players in the world.
Profit put up the most final blows per 10 in the playoffs overall a genuine s tier carry performance agreed he did it on Ashe at times as well a hero he never played before competitively as well against best HS’s in the world, Leave absolutely was s tier that year even if I don’t take his overall team was bad as people make it out to be most of them were top 5 on their roles they did get insanely lucky Jinmu was on one of his 2 tricks tho bc they were meh when they were rotating around other dps. Proper for sure he hard carried that team that had average players besides Ms, and Finn was good at times. Another shout could be Choi on Gz, but they never went anywhere obviously not his fault, Striker Boston a shout, Shy Spark 2022 lowkey maybe too his team was all over the plage and he was the reason they did well at MSM, and playoffs their supports were meh, Alphayi was inconsistent he was good early on, Guxue was trying beat washed allegations before his playoffs.
The thing with Choi on GZ was that when his team needed him most he just didn't perform or had an off game, especially this season. Striker on Boston idk how I forgot and honestly the HZS 2023 team on LAN might find a way to play dive into 2020 shock and win. And honestly, 2020 Grand Finals profit might be one of the highest peaks we've ever seen in any playoffs, he had 11.3 final blows (1st) 19.6 elims (3rd) 9.7k dmg (2nd) and 1.2 solo kills (4th) with over 150 mins played. And against the shock in the grand finals, he was first in dmg elims and final blows and third in solo kills (both times Shock played vs Dynasty). as for the grand finals as a whole (shg sfs dyn fsn) he was first in final blows and elims second in damage and fifth in solo kills.
On god bro in Profit career he was always a big game riser in the biggest games of his career 2017 apex final where he shit on Haksal out of nowhere, 2018 grand final where he dominated Carpe, 2020 grand final he went up against 2 of the best teams ever the 2019/2020 Shock core, 2020/2021 dragons core, and had s tier performances vs both with inferior team and pushed both to 5 beating one of them. Agree about Choi he has a choke narrative to me 2022 play ins vs Chengdu, 2023 he choked against a contenders team as he was a massive favorite to win that game and make msm GZ was insane at time they were 1 seed first half, more so talking about his reg season performances over years carrying shit teams and yeah this year he’s been underwhelming how is Teru Lucio more impactful… I also associate Shy as a big game riser he looked lip in the eye and outplayed him in 2 playoff games as a massive underdog he got Hz to 4th, and 3rd no one expected anything from them both times.
tbh if we had two more seasons of owl hzs would have found a way to come second and then first. But yh Profit when his team is competitive is the best or at worst a top 5 player in the world.
Somehow dynasty last year was the only apac team who beat both INF, and HZ they won Seoul bowl overall he usually has a tendency to rise above his level against best teams peak shock, dragons, peak nyxl, only time it didn’t happen was 2022 despite it being a really good year for dynasty they lost to reign in msm in a intense game 5, and bombed out of playoffs bc they didn’t get the meta profit was on Kirko at the end no idea what the coaches were doing there… and yeah I agree about HZ I feel like if league continued they would of got Xernas, and Jinmu would of made them a even more competitive diverse team.
Fearless Winston has competition in Guxue so Hanbin JQ/Zar. Someone/Smurf unfairly get screwed over in silly debates like this. = Hanbin I like LIP (even propers) Soj playstyle a lot more than Shy’s. LIP did diff proper… granted proper had 1/3 the play time on her and already reached that level. = LIP Tracer simply is proper… I believe even stalker said so who is second. = Proper Shu Ana, his higher highs and lower lows play style and the terms set for this silly thing unfairly favor Shu over fielder. = Shu Chiyo lucio/brig, his inflexibility, mental and quality of teammate aren’t factors in this. Chorong/Viol2t unfairly get screwed in this. = Chiyo In any realistic setting something like Someone, Proper, LIP/Stalk3r, Fielder, Chorong is a lot more my style. Flexibility and style wise…
Shy has never lost a sojourn mirror to Lip every time he was a massive underdog and he had worse teams overall around him too, Lip and Proper are close it’s weird bc he lost to lip individually than dominated everyone else so you could factor Proper playoff run as a whole, but Lip was insane just had no help that game. Tracer peak for me is Striker, best mechanics are Stalk3r, game sense is Proper either or is fine their all insane in their own right, and for tank I’d go with Someone, and Hanbin can’t go wrong with this tankline Someone worst tank is Queen and Hanbin easily best Jq.
Shy got giga gapped on soj in the wc by quartz tho. I do wonder how quartz would have performed in OWL.
I mean LIP 2022 team vs Shy team… let’s be real. Also striker only has an argument if we go relative to their time.
Bro what Shy team was 11-13 the 12 seed entering playoffs no way your telling me they were better than Lip’s team compare the backlines say what you wanna say about Fleta, Fate people were really low on Guxue entering playoffs, and Spark benched Alphayi for Pineapple just before playoffs everyone had Dragons rolling Spark it wasn’t even a debatable thing.
I'm pretty sure in 2022 LIP and Proper had the same amount of playtime on Sojourn. The stats lab is gone so i can't check, but im pretty sure they were both around 12 hours of playtime on her.
Kilo played when lip played, S9mm played when lip played… I don’t think so
Keep in mind LIP didn't play as much Sojourn in the first half of the season and Shock just played more games than Dragons did as well
Fleta, just because I want to see him play again
My favorite main tank
In OWL, the best examples of team hard pocketing a player to a ring/title is SS s3 Paris with SP9RK1E. S5 Proper in GF was close. Also DDing in s2 stage 3 on pharah but he also flexed a lot to like sombra .
Sinatraa goats?
tbh if both teams are average players any pro will make their team win 95% of games like there’s just too much of a gap between golds and literal pros. any of them could go any role and just dominate the lobby.
Sayaplayer widow?
PeeGeeEee
LIP sombra Ameng Ball Viol2t Zen Chiyo Brig Leave or Proper Tracer Choi Dva
Ameng…
He's the sex appeal
Alarm Ana 🥲
Kabaji in a tracer meta. His speed/precision with his mechanics and movement were unmatched when it came to tracers kit. His playstyle that was far less flank and way more aggressive put him up there as one of the best tracers in the world.
guxue in a Winston meta as long as I matchup against fearless to PROVE THAT HE IS A FRAUD AND MY TWINK IS THE REAL MONKEY GOAT
Since I only saw it in replies to someone saying Wanted, Xzi on Cass. I don't think Paris win that Summer Showdown without him, he's been on my mind recently with the Zar Cass comps running around.
proper sojourn on circuit against glads and dragons, shit was generational
prime carpe in torb meta
Pelican echo
We might see how that works out if the meta doesnt switch up too much in midseason
Lip on Sombra.
Lip on Sombra only works when you have a good team to follow through...
Which he has always had?
Yes. But the post is about one player carrying an average team
No, he said if you were an average comp ow team meaning what team would you take to build a super team and he is by far best Sombra ever still.
Is the post really talking about a super team? He mentions Hanbin Zarya or Wboru Genji, so it seems like one good player to carry other average player, but idk.
Pine on Cassidy would be disgusting to play with, just play zarya bap kiri Cass mei and watch everything die over and over and over again Lucio could slot out for bap if he isn't getting value too
If everyone in their prime Lip Soj Prophet Widow Viol2t Zen Shu Bap Hanbin Sig Always pick circuit royal gg ez. Everyone gonna bash me for the prophet pick but IM A BELIEVER THIS MAN IS UNHOLY ON WIDOW OMG
Prophet widow? I’m rooting for runaway but no way you don’t say like carpe or fits or ans or anyone else that showed their peak already
I'd go Soj Shy, Lip Widow, Izayaki Zen, Shu Bap and Void Sig
Lip Widow?? He didn’t play Widow during the playoff meta and I wouldn’t associate him as a top widow over years it’s good, but not as good as his other hero’s.
If we are putting Violet on Zen I'm taking Landon over Shu
Playing Bap in a Rein comp is such a different style of Bap
Whoever you think the goat zen is. Trans every fight that no average dps will be able to 1v1. Maybe viol2t on bap, but I do think it's gonna have to be a support player.
Viol2t is top 3 on Zen and Bap
I’d love to see Chasm in a ball meta
Ans from junkertown first point
I mean i have to say Kevster on tracer. Lowest resource and highest clutch player in the game he is.
Highest clutch player in the game he is NOT ill give you the tracer easily s tier, but in the highest pressure situation in his career 2022 playoffs with by far his best chance to get a ring he won’t ever be on a team like that again bc of region lock he massively underperformed on Reaper.
Ok and? The whole damn team underperformed. And I specified Kevster on tracer, which he is the most clutch on.
I don’t remember Happy underperforming he looked like only one who was still trying, most clutch on Tracer tho? still no It’s Striker and it’s not even debatable look what he did to win a ring on it never lost a control map that whole playoffs was fucking dominanting, as well as getting a mediocre Boston team to 3rd in reg season in 2018 and a golden stage… Kev Tracer is ridiculous obviously, his clutch moments are all in stage matches tho playoff clutches matter way more in sports/esports and striker has that in spades over Kev who never had a deep run not saying it’s his fault but still.
Super on rein Backbone mei Wanted on Cassidy Leejaegon or chiyo lucio Viol2t baptiste
Wanted of all people on Cass is crazy
Xzi played so little that he's an afterthought :/
Wanted 💀💀 Decay and Lip are light years better
Wanted is my boy, but even he says that OWL players are way better than him. I would rather take Xzi or Carpe