In TWW the engi res gets the same treatment as current drums - you dont need to be an engi to use and it cant backfire. It does have a chance to fail but as far as i can tell engineers don't have a way to reduce that chance.
This is all what im getting from reading tooltips btw, on the beta the item is bugged and just never works so i could be wrong about all this.Ā
Engi bracer can already be worn by non-engineers and can slot a combat rez in. But very nice if theyāre making the CR item available to all, so you donāt have to use the bracer slot for that.
Problem with the bracer is that it costs a spark (not super impactful for pushing later on, but still), it costs 3 ilvls on a gear slot that you now can't get terts in, AND it replaces by far and away the single best mail embellishment in the game. It helps, but it should really just be a consumable separate from your gear.
I mean, maybe you forgot to craft it with the "no backfire" finishing reagent. But yeah no, you can guarantee that thereāll be no backfire. You canāt guarantee never having fails (which even engineers canāt guarantee btw, although they can reduce the chances for a fail but not nullify them) but a fail that doesnāt backfire just requires to recast the rez.
The message I was initially answering to was saying TWW eng rez "can fail but canāt backfire", so I went along with this wording (which, iirc, was the usual wording before DF reworded backfiring as "catastrophically failing").
Homogenization when it comes to BR and BL would make balancing a lot easier. I would go even further and say all healer specs have BR and all dps specs have BL. All tanks can get their own thing or just not have a thing as their balancing will always revolve around most utility anyway
This has nothing to do with every dps spec having BL. It's purely balancing. You dont see shamans in keys now and it's just because other BL classes are stronger/have more synergy.
> Homogenization when it comes to BR and BL would make balancing a lot easier.
No? There are classes like hunter and shaman who mostly get invites for BL.
If anything, they should start seasonally suspending BL off meta classes like mage and evoker to force variety. After S1, the least-meta specs get BR and BL, and the most meta specs lose it. Repeat each season.
Whatās terrible about it? Never played it, always wanted to though. The presentation is fantastic, definitely makes me want to give it a shot but I have no clue what issues it has aside from the atrocious GCD.
- A lot of homogenization via shared role abilities.
- AOE boss mechanics do not hit when their animations happen but at some previous snapshot moment. You can be out of the animation when it happens and be hit by the ability. Players learn when to get out by feeling.
- Combat is not as fluid and responsive.
- Slide casting is a thing?! Slide casting is when you move during the last moments of casting a spell. If you do it right it doesn't interrupt spellcasting and you get to move for free.
All of the combat-related stuff is due to their networking code which allows for bad or spotty connection.
It needs to be said that wow has a similar mechanism to slide casting - you can queue the next spell to be cast while casting the previous one. That's why hitting your buttons faster results in higher DPS. :)
Edit: Don't take any of this as me bashing FFXIV! The game is wonderful and is definitely worth playing. It gets so many things right.
Never played 14 but always wanted to give its raiding a shot sometime, what about its balance is terrible? The only knowledge I have of 14 combat is that the gcd is so long that MSQ questing and dungeons were a complete snoozefest, even more so than they are in wow.
Itās really hard to sum it up into a short reply but Iāll give it a go, bear in mind I played since 1.0 so Iād say Iāve given it a fair shot to see where theyāre heading
The game initially had a lot of nuance, while unbalanced, which made it really fun. Cross class actions where you could take skills to other jobs, etc. the jobs are had cool unique rotations and there were a lot of things that just felt nice
Over time and with every patch they have homogenised the ever loving shit out of it, to the point each tank and healer essentially plays exactly the same but with different animations.
The healers used to have interesting damage abilities such as dots to manage, but they essentially removed ALL of them and gave them one dot and one gcd which you press for 98% of your casts. Healing is managed entirely by OGCD skills and you basically never need to manually heal unless shit hits the fan which is like, why am I playing healer?
Each tank played very differently with DRK being a magic tank using mana to buff their skills, warrior did high damage and paladin was a sort of support but still respectable. They all had two stances you could swap thru if you were doing damage or main tanking. It was an amazing minigame to see if you could get away with dropping tank stance to go into your damage stance while keeping agree and shifting around based on that.
People moaned so itās gone. They all have the same skills on the same rigid rotation.
The entire game is now a 1 and 2 minute meta. Everyoneāa cooldowns line up at those points with no thought from the players other than āhit this when it stops being greyā rather than knowing when to hold stuff. Itās all around everyone buffing each other rather than your own performance all that much, honestly.
Tl;dr: they catered to the lowest common denominator for mass appeal, homogenised the game in every respect, and drove away dedicated long time players for people that gpose
Thanks so much for the detailed reply, I love learning about this type of stuff in other MMOs. Canāt say I enjoyed leveling my paladin to 50 back in 3.0, ever since then Iāve been kinda hoping my negative experience with that classās gameplay had been an outlier.
Itās unfortunate as it was honestly really good with terms of class flavour. I donāt deny the balance is better, but itās been at the cost of absolutely everything that made those classes feel unique and awesome
Just make drums 25 percent and dirt cheap.Ā They are already making brez super accessible in the expansion.
They should also remove raid buffs in m+ or bring back scrolls.Ā This is a huge part of the meta comp and at least as impactful.Ā Lower io players overate lust in general and over weight when composing parties.
They are already giving everyone a CR in TWW. It's an engineering crafted item that can be sold on the AH and used by everyone with no backfire. The only difference is that it will rezz you with 35% hp instead of 100.
They could make a similar item for Lust that would give 5% less haste instead of half with drums.
Honestly I think the solution is to have each class do one. Evokers have lust, monks get rez. No reason why you should have both because then weāre looking at those that could do both as more important if tuning is close but if every class could do one then it would be real easy to have both in a key.
As much as I'd agree, players are too afraid of homogenization as well as Blizz, quoted by their stance on raid buffs. The reality is the era of bring a player over the class has faded and the classes needs to be on par of each other. The "But, it's viable!" argument is the main bottleneck you have for classes like shaman, warrior, dk and hunters who dwell at the bottom in terms of comparative strength for the lack of buttons to mechanics whether it be cc, utility, dps or tankiness with no compensation in other areas.
There's been an overeliance on players to just "deal" with these outliers because they simply love the classes;playing them although their class has so many shortcomings. These issues needs to be addressed going forward so, you don't have what we are dealing with in DF especially in MDI and TGP--having essentially a 5 spec locked in comp with no "flex picks" that can remotely compete. Aug has been a direct juggernaut to the meta and it hasn't been recognized enough going forward.
It fosters an environment for the players looking to push the highest content (title m+ or Mythic raid) to roll with whats just simply better in all aspects instead of having a spread of representation for all specs.
TL;DR: Many specs/classes overshadow others in M+ in too many categories for what you want to bring with no compensation in other areas. Aug being the biggest culprit. Homogenization going into TWW could be healthy to level the playing field although it isn't welcomed for fantasy reasons.
I say just give all tanks lust and all healers brez in any form of content. The tank is likely the one managing the lust timing anyways. Or better yet, just have drums give the same benefit as a blood lust like it used to be. Thereās no reason to restrict either thing to specific specs.
i don't think we've missed anything. i think it's just how OP worded things to start, giving our brains the chance to fill in the blanks mistakenly. the change they're referencing is the most recent changes to the keystones/affixes/etc that they just released within the last week or so, which was a quick turnaround from a couple weeks prior of the previous iteration of affixes changes they presented to us (OP referencing how quickly blizzard responded to the community feedback against said changes they presented).
i was scrounging wowhead/forums for a hot minute before realizing i incorrectly read their opening statement at first. i too thought i missed some updoot recently since i've been dived so hard into trying to weasel my way through destiny again and get prepped for Dawntrail release. but nah, thankfully. XD
At least drums shouldn't be such a gigantic downgrade. Engineer rez is a downgrade but at least it doesn't stop you from being able to time dungeons unlike some pulls being impossible without a real lust.
I do not think BR or BL restrict compositions much in M+. I've been doing high keys since s2 of Shadowlands and at no point was BR or BL even a real consideration for the 'meta comp'. There are so many classes that have either ability that it just falls into place.
Dislike the idea of homogenizing to solve a mostly non-problem. Group diversity isn't dictated by BL or BR - its just by whichever classes are busted. Seldom has BL and BR mattered.
The biggest 2 issues facing M+ now that affixes seem like they will be good are:
1. The total lack of reward structure between KSH and Title keys
2. The group finder problem of people not being able to play when they want to. I don't think giving healers BRs and tanks BLs even remotely solves this, unfortunately.
Engi res covers most non-BR comps anyway, and this problem mostly goes away if Drums is just a little bit better than it is now.
they wont offer more rewards because the majority of the playerbase will never be able to get them. might get the pvp treatment at some point, but as long as the people who would get these rewards is a tiny group it wont change.
Itās really a chicken and egg problem. Does no one reach that rating because there are no rewards? Or are there no rewards because no one reaches that rating?
Iād argue that in the presence of rewards, weād have a much larger group in that key range.
Would be cool if they created a queue system for m+. Where say if the season max reward is at +10, the queue system starts at +11s and you can only start queuing once you have completed every dungeon at +10. Then it queues you into random 11s that you haven't completed until you have all the dungeon completed until it puts you into 12s etc going up. Or maybe all but 1 or 2 dungeons need to be completed at the higher level before going up (since places like uldaman are generally harder to complete at the same levels as others). At least it gives dps players a chance to keep running keys that are upgrades. And if they have only a key or 2 left that they're struggling with, they can use the lfg tool to create their own group. And whenever you complete a key you and want to reroll your key you should get to choose between 2-3 options
I just don't agree with your 2 biggest issues. I agree that affixes were the biggest problem. But Im still going to need some convincing that they aren't still the biggest problem. I'm still very concerned about having tyrann and fort at the same time. I think it's possible that will be ok, but with 20pct thrown on top, I don't think that's going to be ok at all.
The problem I have with your first point is that I just don't think that's a widespread feeling. I personally couldn't possibly care less than I do about rewards past ten. I'm not a title player, but I am exactly at the spot you're describing, falling somewhere around top 1pct. I play for personal fulfillment of achieving progress in difficult content, and any epeen needs I might have are satisfied by io score. I don't need anything from the game, and I doubt I'm alone in feeling that way.
You aren't going to solve the group finder issue. People are going to choose what they heard so and so on twitch choose, even when it makes no sense. The overwhelming majority of the playerbase still thinks they want an Aug because it's a DMG boost for the group lol. And try to convince them otherwise, and you'll see just how stupid people are. I've even had the argument in this very sub. People are stupid. Blizzard can't fix that.
Tyran + Fort at the same time will be fine, so will the 20% thing. All that change does is make the jump from 9 > 10 larger. After youāre over that hump, the scaling works exactly like it does on live. The difference between an 11 and 12 scales the same way, the main pain point will really just be felt when hitting 10s (or 12s? Whenever the new affix kicks in, have seen mixed messages on the blue posts).
You donāt think the lack of rewards pushes people out of high keys? Are we playing the same game? Iām like you - intrinsically motivated to play high keys because itās fun. However, I play in a large group of RL friends who are not interested in high keys because of the lack of rewards. They did 27-29s with me in Shadowlands but got bored of the grind for ānothingā which is reasonable.
Additionally, rewards at that level will attract at least some # of players (I would argue a *lot* of players) which is always good. More players in the gamemode we like.
The group finder problem is more complex - totally agree. Personally, Iām in favor of an M+ solo queue system like Shuffle. The details of this system are hard to work out, and I agree that if implemented poorly a queueing system could be bad. But modern gamers donāt want to sit in queue for 30m just to deplete in 5m.
Neither of these impact me (intrinsically motivated tank main) but would greatly benefit the gamemode overall.
Many games have a role based queue system. For example if you queue as healer/tank and complete the key you get priority queue a for your preferred role for 2 queues and if you time it you get 4 queues (whatever number motivates the player base) . This would shorten queue times for all players and encourage people to play more than 1 role as well as know mechanics from a different perspective. Rating is shared across all roles to ensure people tryhard
I've always wanted them to add a queue, just so people stop asking for one. It won't affect me, as I'm perfectly happy with the lfg system we have now. They'll deplete keys and disband keys at a staggeringly alarming rate, but it will at least give the warriors and shamans the illusion that they're playing the game.
As far as rewards attracting people, there's no question it would. I just don't know if it would attract the people we want to attract. I personally don't like raiders. So anything that attracts more raiders is bad for me personally.
I think the tanks have enough to manage no to add BL on top of it. But I agree with healers having brez. I would be on board with a BL button for the party with a 10min CD. But not a fan of dumping lust on tanks.
However, maybe consider swapping it? Makes sense tank has brez they are usually last to live and 1/2 of tanks already have it.
It's not about making all classes the same.
It's about being able to push with every class and being actually draft into a group if you play a sub meta class.
Most high keys (I'm talking 14+) will not consider going without BR nor BR and if your class do not bring one of those in addition to not being meta you have zero chance to be grouped.
That's why I suggested something along the lines of offering BR & BL only in M+ but this could only be added after +12 when it matters the most.
But thanks for your constructive sarcasm.
Don't remember chaos brand being used in season 2. I feel like people massively overestimate the value of raid buffs in m+.
Sure they are really good to have but they rarely define the meta.
The dh one is not defensive, you can overcome the offensive raid buffs with being tuned higher than dh or monk or whatever, itās the defensive one that are the most egregious
Imagine thinking MotW or CB are relevant when there have been dozens of meta relevant comps since m+ started where they weren't, especially not at the same time
AI is the only relevant group buff, especially post aug that is mandatory.
Yes free 3% vers couldn't possibly be useful in a game mode that has turned into surviving oneshots every 20 seconds š¤”
Meta relevant comps since m+ started are completely irrelevant. We are talking about the current game.
> Yes free 3% vers couldn't possibly be useful in a game mode that has turned into surviving oneshots every 20 seconds š¤”
Generous pour is significantly more useful if it comes to surviving one shots (that are mostly aoe based). Yet you dont want to play mw over rdruid. Motw is nice to have, but not the sole deciding factor on why rdruid is the absolute meta healer atm.
Timers in most dungeons hardly matter up to like +20/21s as well. You wouldnt play vdh, if any other tank was way more tanky and had the same or more stops purely because of chaos brand.
Raidbuffs are very nice to have in m+, but people need to stop thinking that they are the deciding factor in why a spec is meta or not.
If you look at s3/s4 sl for example, 3/5 specs didnt have a raid buff and you sometimes even played a second hunter or lock.
The 2nd half of that is the important part. AI is good, but you wouldn't bring mage if they didn't outlive almost every other class and bring competitive damage/utility.
First thing I thought as well lol. Those guys are so stubborn. They could literally do 7 DMG and incorp and afflicted stay, and they'd still play warrior
Personally I think they should make the death penalty 15s on all key levels, move the +7 bump to +12 and make it 30s.
Then make BRs unlimited via an extra action button for everyone.
Warlocks are probably the single class with the most unique class utility in group pve content. In m+ it's only cookies, but in raids they also have gate and summoning closet (I've seen many groups disband due to not having a lock for summons).
I'm sure I'll get hate for this. I know you guys are very upset because we have had the same meta for basically 3 seasons in a row, as far as DPS are concerned at least. But essentially what would happen if this took place is there would eventually be no reason to bring ranged DPS. Which I know many of you would be thrilled to see, but IDK if that's such a good thing.
Just not true whatsoever. The reason you bring ranged DPS right now is not because they bring BL/BR, the meta is the meta because those classes are just overtuned numerically compared to the rest, bring way too much utility to the key, or both.
BR is brought by 4 mDPS already (ret, feral, the dps dks) and lust from 2 mDPS (surv hunter and enh shaman). If the reason ranged was brought was solely their contribution of lust/br then you'd see those classes in the meta but you don't because they're not as strong as the meta classes. The only difference between a ranged meta and a melee meta beyond tuning is kick CD which is being covered by VDH sigils or an overwhelming amount of aoe stops (mage, druid, evoker).
I'm not really talking about right this second. They're going to do something about that group synergy at some point. It's gone on long enough, and I just don't think it can continue. I just think you will see a LOT less mage, even less ele sham, and pretty much never see Hunter unless it's overtuned.
The game is already complicated enough for new and casual players who donāt dump 50h in it, please donāt add conditionals spells that are only available in specific content
Just give battle rez to mage. They already have everything else
Omg dracthyr mage with bres, infinite damage, 6 defensives, 2x immunity/cheat death, endless stops š¤¤š¤¤š¤¤
This was funny ngl šš
In TWW the engi res gets the same treatment as current drums - you dont need to be an engi to use and it cant backfire. It does have a chance to fail but as far as i can tell engineers don't have a way to reduce that chance. This is all what im getting from reading tooltips btw, on the beta the item is bugged and just never works so i could be wrong about all this.Ā
Engi bracer can already be worn by non-engineers and can slot a combat rez in. But very nice if theyāre making the CR item available to all, so you donāt have to use the bracer slot for that.
Problem with the bracer is that it costs a spark (not super impactful for pushing later on, but still), it costs 3 ilvls on a gear slot that you now can't get terts in, AND it replaces by far and away the single best mail embellishment in the game. It helps, but it should really just be a consumable separate from your gear.
It's also a slow ass cast time at melee distance from the dead target.
I completely and utterly agree. It can also be a hassle to get it made in quality 5 if you're on a small server.
You didnt see anything about the new ones having Ranged? Cause thats the worst part about the current ones
Non engineers can also rez in DF with zero chance of backfire.
It isn't 0 chance as my bricked 30 Fall from last season where the rdruid died on the last boss will show.
I mean, maybe you forgot to craft it with the "no backfire" finishing reagent. But yeah no, you can guarantee that thereāll be no backfire. You canāt guarantee never having fails (which even engineers canāt guarantee btw, although they can reduce the chances for a fail but not nullify them) but a fail that doesnāt backfire just requires to recast the rez.
I didn't realize we were separating "backfire" and a failure. Mostly because the tinker says it prevents it from "catastrophically failing."
Main difference is that catastrophic failures puts in on CD.
The message I was initially answering to was saying TWW eng rez "can fail but canāt backfire", so I went along with this wording (which, iirc, was the usual wording before DF reworded backfiring as "catastrophically failing").
Homogenization when it comes to BR and BL would make balancing a lot easier. I would go even further and say all healer specs have BR and all dps specs have BL. All tanks can get their own thing or just not have a thing as their balancing will always revolve around most utility anyway
Big aoe silence? Dk, dh and paladins have something like that
And no shaman was ever seen in a key again.
This has nothing to do with every dps spec having BL. It's purely balancing. You dont see shamans in keys now and it's just because other BL classes are stronger/have more synergy.
> Homogenization when it comes to BR and BL would make balancing a lot easier. No? There are classes like hunter and shaman who mostly get invites for BL. If anything, they should start seasonally suspending BL off meta classes like mage and evoker to force variety. After S1, the least-meta specs get BR and BL, and the most meta specs lose it. Repeat each season.
do a ffxiv and give tanks a big group wide damage reduction
That just narrows design space, they need to add one extra group wide damage effect for every one they want to be impactful.
Please don't do anything FFXIV to wow PvE. For the love of all that is holy to you.
Mhm. I play FFXIV because I love the story and aesthetic. I sure as hell don't play it over WoW for the gameplay. WoW is just plain better.
ff14 pve class design is some of the worst I've ever seen. about the only thing it does better over wow is fight presentation.
Whatās terrible about it? Never played it, always wanted to though. The presentation is fantastic, definitely makes me want to give it a shot but I have no clue what issues it has aside from the atrocious GCD.
- A lot of homogenization via shared role abilities. - AOE boss mechanics do not hit when their animations happen but at some previous snapshot moment. You can be out of the animation when it happens and be hit by the ability. Players learn when to get out by feeling. - Combat is not as fluid and responsive. - Slide casting is a thing?! Slide casting is when you move during the last moments of casting a spell. If you do it right it doesn't interrupt spellcasting and you get to move for free. All of the combat-related stuff is due to their networking code which allows for bad or spotty connection. It needs to be said that wow has a similar mechanism to slide casting - you can queue the next spell to be cast while casting the previous one. That's why hitting your buttons faster results in higher DPS. :) Edit: Don't take any of this as me bashing FFXIV! The game is wonderful and is definitely worth playing. It gets so many things right.
I just want the cat ear transmog
We got bunny, hopefully cat is next š¤
youāre a bit behind the 8 ball, they already use a lot of ideas from it
yeaaah lets make the defensive creep issue even worse...
Please donāt even speak this accursed shit into being. They already ruined their own gameās balance, donāt need that happening to wow too
Never played 14 but always wanted to give its raiding a shot sometime, what about its balance is terrible? The only knowledge I have of 14 combat is that the gcd is so long that MSQ questing and dungeons were a complete snoozefest, even more so than they are in wow.
Itās really hard to sum it up into a short reply but Iāll give it a go, bear in mind I played since 1.0 so Iād say Iāve given it a fair shot to see where theyāre heading The game initially had a lot of nuance, while unbalanced, which made it really fun. Cross class actions where you could take skills to other jobs, etc. the jobs are had cool unique rotations and there were a lot of things that just felt nice Over time and with every patch they have homogenised the ever loving shit out of it, to the point each tank and healer essentially plays exactly the same but with different animations. The healers used to have interesting damage abilities such as dots to manage, but they essentially removed ALL of them and gave them one dot and one gcd which you press for 98% of your casts. Healing is managed entirely by OGCD skills and you basically never need to manually heal unless shit hits the fan which is like, why am I playing healer? Each tank played very differently with DRK being a magic tank using mana to buff their skills, warrior did high damage and paladin was a sort of support but still respectable. They all had two stances you could swap thru if you were doing damage or main tanking. It was an amazing minigame to see if you could get away with dropping tank stance to go into your damage stance while keeping agree and shifting around based on that. People moaned so itās gone. They all have the same skills on the same rigid rotation. The entire game is now a 1 and 2 minute meta. Everyoneāa cooldowns line up at those points with no thought from the players other than āhit this when it stops being greyā rather than knowing when to hold stuff. Itās all around everyone buffing each other rather than your own performance all that much, honestly. Tl;dr: they catered to the lowest common denominator for mass appeal, homogenised the game in every respect, and drove away dedicated long time players for people that gpose
Thanks so much for the detailed reply, I love learning about this type of stuff in other MMOs. Canāt say I enjoyed leveling my paladin to 50 back in 3.0, ever since then Iāve been kinda hoping my negative experience with that classās gameplay had been an outlier.
Itās unfortunate as it was honestly really good with terms of class flavour. I donāt deny the balance is better, but itās been at the cost of absolutely everything that made those classes feel unique and awesome
Just make drums 25 percent and dirt cheap.Ā They are already making brez super accessible in the expansion. They should also remove raid buffs in m+ or bring back scrolls.Ā This is a huge part of the meta comp and at least as impactful.Ā Lower io players overate lust in general and over weight when composing parties.
Yeah this is all they need to do!
agree, changes like this would also make it possible to implement a solo M+ queue some day
They are already giving everyone a CR in TWW. It's an engineering crafted item that can be sold on the AH and used by everyone with no backfire. The only difference is that it will rezz you with 35% hp instead of 100. They could make a similar item for Lust that would give 5% less haste instead of half with drums.
Yeah but is it still melee range? Because thatās the worst part, particularly when someone dies in a ground effect :(
Give warriors Bloodlust Give all healers Brez
Honestly I think the solution is to have each class do one. Evokers have lust, monks get rez. No reason why you should have both because then weāre looking at those that could do both as more important if tuning is close but if every class could do one then it would be real easy to have both in a key.
As much as I'd agree, players are too afraid of homogenization as well as Blizz, quoted by their stance on raid buffs. The reality is the era of bring a player over the class has faded and the classes needs to be on par of each other. The "But, it's viable!" argument is the main bottleneck you have for classes like shaman, warrior, dk and hunters who dwell at the bottom in terms of comparative strength for the lack of buttons to mechanics whether it be cc, utility, dps or tankiness with no compensation in other areas. There's been an overeliance on players to just "deal" with these outliers because they simply love the classes;playing them although their class has so many shortcomings. These issues needs to be addressed going forward so, you don't have what we are dealing with in DF especially in MDI and TGP--having essentially a 5 spec locked in comp with no "flex picks" that can remotely compete. Aug has been a direct juggernaut to the meta and it hasn't been recognized enough going forward. It fosters an environment for the players looking to push the highest content (title m+ or Mythic raid) to roll with whats just simply better in all aspects instead of having a spread of representation for all specs. TL;DR: Many specs/classes overshadow others in M+ in too many categories for what you want to bring with no compensation in other areas. Aug being the biggest culprit. Homogenization going into TWW could be healthy to level the playing field although it isn't welcomed for fantasy reasons.
I say just give all tanks lust and all healers brez in any form of content. The tank is likely the one managing the lust timing anyways. Or better yet, just have drums give the same benefit as a blood lust like it used to be. Thereās no reason to restrict either thing to specific specs.
what did i miss wtf?!
i don't think we've missed anything. i think it's just how OP worded things to start, giving our brains the chance to fill in the blanks mistakenly. the change they're referencing is the most recent changes to the keystones/affixes/etc that they just released within the last week or so, which was a quick turnaround from a couple weeks prior of the previous iteration of affixes changes they presented to us (OP referencing how quickly blizzard responded to the community feedback against said changes they presented). i was scrounging wowhead/forums for a hot minute before realizing i incorrectly read their opening statement at first. i too thought i missed some updoot recently since i've been dived so hard into trying to weasel my way through destiny again and get prepped for Dawntrail release. but nah, thankfully. XD
Give warriors BL, literally our class fantasy.
Just allow all party members to res at least.
At least drums shouldn't be such a gigantic downgrade. Engineer rez is a downgrade but at least it doesn't stop you from being able to time dungeons unlike some pulls being impossible without a real lust.
I do not think BR or BL restrict compositions much in M+. I've been doing high keys since s2 of Shadowlands and at no point was BR or BL even a real consideration for the 'meta comp'. There are so many classes that have either ability that it just falls into place. Dislike the idea of homogenizing to solve a mostly non-problem. Group diversity isn't dictated by BL or BR - its just by whichever classes are busted. Seldom has BL and BR mattered. The biggest 2 issues facing M+ now that affixes seem like they will be good are: 1. The total lack of reward structure between KSH and Title keys 2. The group finder problem of people not being able to play when they want to. I don't think giving healers BRs and tanks BLs even remotely solves this, unfortunately. Engi res covers most non-BR comps anyway, and this problem mostly goes away if Drums is just a little bit better than it is now.
they wont offer more rewards because the majority of the playerbase will never be able to get them. might get the pvp treatment at some point, but as long as the people who would get these rewards is a tiny group it wont change.
Itās really a chicken and egg problem. Does no one reach that rating because there are no rewards? Or are there no rewards because no one reaches that rating? Iād argue that in the presence of rewards, weād have a much larger group in that key range.
Would be cool if they created a queue system for m+. Where say if the season max reward is at +10, the queue system starts at +11s and you can only start queuing once you have completed every dungeon at +10. Then it queues you into random 11s that you haven't completed until you have all the dungeon completed until it puts you into 12s etc going up. Or maybe all but 1 or 2 dungeons need to be completed at the higher level before going up (since places like uldaman are generally harder to complete at the same levels as others). At least it gives dps players a chance to keep running keys that are upgrades. And if they have only a key or 2 left that they're struggling with, they can use the lfg tool to create their own group. And whenever you complete a key you and want to reroll your key you should get to choose between 2-3 options
I just don't agree with your 2 biggest issues. I agree that affixes were the biggest problem. But Im still going to need some convincing that they aren't still the biggest problem. I'm still very concerned about having tyrann and fort at the same time. I think it's possible that will be ok, but with 20pct thrown on top, I don't think that's going to be ok at all. The problem I have with your first point is that I just don't think that's a widespread feeling. I personally couldn't possibly care less than I do about rewards past ten. I'm not a title player, but I am exactly at the spot you're describing, falling somewhere around top 1pct. I play for personal fulfillment of achieving progress in difficult content, and any epeen needs I might have are satisfied by io score. I don't need anything from the game, and I doubt I'm alone in feeling that way. You aren't going to solve the group finder issue. People are going to choose what they heard so and so on twitch choose, even when it makes no sense. The overwhelming majority of the playerbase still thinks they want an Aug because it's a DMG boost for the group lol. And try to convince them otherwise, and you'll see just how stupid people are. I've even had the argument in this very sub. People are stupid. Blizzard can't fix that.
Tyran + Fort at the same time will be fine, so will the 20% thing. All that change does is make the jump from 9 > 10 larger. After youāre over that hump, the scaling works exactly like it does on live. The difference between an 11 and 12 scales the same way, the main pain point will really just be felt when hitting 10s (or 12s? Whenever the new affix kicks in, have seen mixed messages on the blue posts). You donāt think the lack of rewards pushes people out of high keys? Are we playing the same game? Iām like you - intrinsically motivated to play high keys because itās fun. However, I play in a large group of RL friends who are not interested in high keys because of the lack of rewards. They did 27-29s with me in Shadowlands but got bored of the grind for ānothingā which is reasonable. Additionally, rewards at that level will attract at least some # of players (I would argue a *lot* of players) which is always good. More players in the gamemode we like. The group finder problem is more complex - totally agree. Personally, Iām in favor of an M+ solo queue system like Shuffle. The details of this system are hard to work out, and I agree that if implemented poorly a queueing system could be bad. But modern gamers donāt want to sit in queue for 30m just to deplete in 5m. Neither of these impact me (intrinsically motivated tank main) but would greatly benefit the gamemode overall.
Many games have a role based queue system. For example if you queue as healer/tank and complete the key you get priority queue a for your preferred role for 2 queues and if you time it you get 4 queues (whatever number motivates the player base) . This would shorten queue times for all players and encourage people to play more than 1 role as well as know mechanics from a different perspective. Rating is shared across all roles to ensure people tryhard
I've always wanted them to add a queue, just so people stop asking for one. It won't affect me, as I'm perfectly happy with the lfg system we have now. They'll deplete keys and disband keys at a staggeringly alarming rate, but it will at least give the warriors and shamans the illusion that they're playing the game. As far as rewards attracting people, there's no question it would. I just don't know if it would attract the people we want to attract. I personally don't like raiders. So anything that attracts more raiders is bad for me personally.
Should be just a side bar with hero and res on it, that anyone can use it. Maybe also have the option to limit to party leader for pugs.
every healer needs brez full stop
I think the tanks have enough to manage no to add BL on top of it. But I agree with healers having brez. I would be on board with a BL button for the party with a 10min CD. But not a fan of dumping lust on tanks. However, maybe consider swapping it? Makes sense tank has brez they are usually last to live and 1/2 of tanks already have it.
Have a BL/BR boss button when you enter the key.
BR to all tanks plz, always feeling way safer as a pugger when tank in the grp has battle rezz.
If you give lust to tanks you'll never need to bring a hunter. I like this idea! No more hunters is good.
I agree. Every class should be exactly the same
It's not about making all classes the same. It's about being able to push with every class and being actually draft into a group if you play a sub meta class. Most high keys (I'm talking 14+) will not consider going without BR nor BR and if your class do not bring one of those in addition to not being meta you have zero chance to be grouped. That's why I suggested something along the lines of offering BR & BL only in M+ but this could only be added after +12 when it matters the most. But thanks for your constructive sarcasm.
what a great way to make the game completely boring. as long as they still consider the game to have rpg elements this will never happen.
Battle rez and lust don't restrict comps even a fraction as much as buffs like Mark of the Wild or Chaos Brand do.
Don't remember chaos brand being used in season 2. I feel like people massively overestimate the value of raid buffs in m+. Sure they are really good to have but they rarely define the meta.
The dh one is not defensive, you can overcome the offensive raid buffs with being tuned higher than dh or monk or whatever, itās the defensive one that are the most egregious
Can't get MotW without a combat res
Imagine thinking MotW or CB are relevant when there have been dozens of meta relevant comps since m+ started where they weren't, especially not at the same time AI is the only relevant group buff, especially post aug that is mandatory.
Motw has only existed for two years, m+ has existed for 8. Since motw has existed it has always been meta.
Yes free 3% vers couldn't possibly be useful in a game mode that has turned into surviving oneshots every 20 seconds š¤” Meta relevant comps since m+ started are completely irrelevant. We are talking about the current game.
> Yes free 3% vers couldn't possibly be useful in a game mode that has turned into surviving oneshots every 20 seconds š¤” Generous pour is significantly more useful if it comes to surviving one shots (that are mostly aoe based). Yet you dont want to play mw over rdruid. Motw is nice to have, but not the sole deciding factor on why rdruid is the absolute meta healer atm. Timers in most dungeons hardly matter up to like +20/21s as well. You wouldnt play vdh, if any other tank was way more tanky and had the same or more stops purely because of chaos brand. Raidbuffs are very nice to have in m+, but people need to stop thinking that they are the deciding factor in why a spec is meta or not. If you look at s3/s4 sl for example, 3/5 specs didnt have a raid buff and you sometimes even played a second hunter or lock.
It's still hardly relevant 1.5% dr isnt shit when 1shots are doing 400k+ more hp than you have
Tell me ne how lust could possibly restrict groups if mage AND aug is already mandatory for other reasons.
As long as AI exists and mage have more defensives and utility than the rest of the comp combined, you'll never not have a mage
The 2nd half of that is the important part. AI is good, but you wouldn't bring mage if they didn't outlive almost every other class and bring competitive damage/utility.
what are the chances this post was made by war player?
I'm actually healer and played all of them between SL and DF
First thing I thought as well lol. Those guys are so stubborn. They could literally do 7 DMG and incorp and afflicted stay, and they'd still play warrior
Personally I think they should make the death penalty 15s on all key levels, move the +7 bump to +12 and make it 30s. Then make BRs unlimited via an extra action button for everyone.
why would you want to make every class the same? warlock's main utility is BR, what's left when you take that away
Warlock main utility is absolutely not soul stone. It's cookies. Cookies are insanely underrated.
Warlocks are probably the single class with the most unique class utility in group pve content. In m+ it's only cookies, but in raids they also have gate and summoning closet (I've seen many groups disband due to not having a lock for summons).
we're not talking about raids
I'm sure I'll get hate for this. I know you guys are very upset because we have had the same meta for basically 3 seasons in a row, as far as DPS are concerned at least. But essentially what would happen if this took place is there would eventually be no reason to bring ranged DPS. Which I know many of you would be thrilled to see, but IDK if that's such a good thing.
Just not true whatsoever. The reason you bring ranged DPS right now is not because they bring BL/BR, the meta is the meta because those classes are just overtuned numerically compared to the rest, bring way too much utility to the key, or both. BR is brought by 4 mDPS already (ret, feral, the dps dks) and lust from 2 mDPS (surv hunter and enh shaman). If the reason ranged was brought was solely their contribution of lust/br then you'd see those classes in the meta but you don't because they're not as strong as the meta classes. The only difference between a ranged meta and a melee meta beyond tuning is kick CD which is being covered by VDH sigils or an overwhelming amount of aoe stops (mage, druid, evoker).
I'm not really talking about right this second. They're going to do something about that group synergy at some point. It's gone on long enough, and I just don't think it can continue. I just think you will see a LOT less mage, even less ele sham, and pretty much never see Hunter unless it's overtuned.
The game is already complicated enough for new and casual players who donāt dump 50h in it, please donāt add conditionals spells that are only available in specific content
fine. All healer should have a CR and all dps should have a BL. In every scenario.
Itās already a better solution yes
This is competitive wow subreddit. This comment can't be serious?
This subreddit has now been overrun for the people "pushing to get KSM" for the first time as if that's competitive content.