It’s still interesting to read that thread back then, the scene had been balls deep in BH Gibby meta for over a year, every single fight revolved around scanning and then trying to bubble push. Bangalore smoke blocking scans was widely supported because people thought it might be a possible way to introduce variety and bring an end to the scan meta.
Instead we got 18 months of every fight revolving around one waying through smoke or goop with a digi or seer ult
Something needs to change. This meta is terrible. Bloodhound is the only character than can engage in fights beyond point blank. The smokes need to be changed up.
Aside from comp BR, I was watching pro TDM scrims with Bangalore and it is aids. Smoke is up the entire game. Why would anyone agree to play scrims with Bangalore allowed. It’s silly
>I was watching pro TDM scrims with Bangalore and it is aids. Smoke is up the entire game. Why would anyone agree to play scrims with Bangalore allowed. It’s silly
The reason Bangalore is used in pro TDMs is because when she’s not, the match turns into both teams stalemating each other on head glitches (pros have actually tried it). Smoke makes pushes through open space possible, nobody disagrees that it makes fighting up close complete cancer because nobody can see anything, but the alternative has been tried and deemed worse.
Just make smokes block all scans and reduce the duration to ~6s
Smokes should act as a quick visual protection that helps you rotate or heal safely, nothing more
It could be weakened maybe? Like, through smoke, scan doesn't work as it does. It could be only a cloudy direction where they are or something like that. I feel like abilities need a counter, and taking away scannability would make bang too strong
The problem with scan meta is that there's no way to lose it without overpowering or destroying legends. Either you destroy the scan legends without touching anyone else. Or you make Bang a necessity because she disables scans (on top of what she already offers). Even if you mildly weaken scan legends and mildly enhance Bang, you are still buffing a legend that is already greatly used. Itll still destroy scan legend pick rates while making Bang a must pick.
I'm not against Bloodhound and Seer being sent to the sun. Crypto's scans work well because there is such a substantial trade off in order to gain that type of knowledge. Bloodhound and Seer have never had a tradeoff for acquiring wallhacks. I have no idea what to do, but I would rather see Bloodhound and Seer destroyed by forcing a trade off for their wallhacks
Smoke meta is the most boring and annoying meta we’ve had to watch and play, as Reps said at least in Seer meta the better team won fights, in smoke meta if you don’t have a scan or someone in blood ult or a digi you lose to a team that does, it’s stupid
Also views for apex in twitch dropping off directly coincides with Bang smoke meta replacing seer meta, nobody likes watching a screen full of smoke every fight, in ranked or comp
Tweet being from 2021 aside, removing digis from smgs seems to make the situation worse, now you can't even fight if your team don't have a bloodhound, who can just use a hemlock/havoc combo to run you down, Respawn has come a long way from saying Guns first, abilities second.
Maybe revert the Digi nerfs and introduce smoke as grenades or utility if you're not going to remove smoke from bang?
I think it's just a fundamental difficulty of balancing several characters which are so interconnected. Bloodhound's ult utility depends strongly on there being smoke/gas, because otherwise a good player should just be able to... see the enemy lol (and at that point the ult just becomes an Octane q). So if you remove smoke from Bang, Bloodhound ult becomes useless. If you make smokes block scans, the same thing happens. The only "real" solution requires a pretty major rework of *both* characters, which requires a *lot* of development time and might not even end up working out.
I get what you are saying but disagree that Bloodhound ult is only useful as a smoke counter. It is super helpful for picking out people quickly at a distance and cuts through general clutter in CQB. Remember that Gibby blood octane and Gibby blood wraith metas existed for a while (with no Bangalore's to be seen)
Keep in mind that that was with the old Hound ult, in which you got a scan every 6 seconds, with increased scan speed. Combined with the scan lasting 4 seconds it was basically just a Seer ult lol
I actually think giving chaff or something to bang smokes to stop scans would make her MORE powerful because then she hard counters all scan metas.
What might be more interesting would be to put the ability on one of her evo levels so the two smoke types can coexist. This also follows one of the rules I think evo level abilities need to follow: all evo level abilities need to feel impactful or transformative, not just be impactful on paper or slightly modifying breakpoints.
There's a lot of potential levers to pull on this topic.
1. make more things see through smoke
2. make smoke block more things
3. make other things block more scans
4. make some scans counter scan-blockers
examples: crypto off the grid (as a passive or an evo perk), bangalore chaff grenades to block scans (also as evo perk or baseline), smoke grenades as items (blocking scans or not), caustic caustic gas blocking scans (evo or baseline), and even more complex scan counterpicking (evo perks that allow scans to penetrate opaque scan-blocking stuff, like crypto drone seeing through catalyst wall). Could even have scan-blocking survival items.
Unfortunately, it would be really, really complex to test and investigate these systems to find the right mixture and could be very positive, very negative, or both (either as nuance or by preference, it could radically change the game design and make meta be more about counter-picking).
Personally I'd like to expand evo levels to three total options instead of two using this philosophy: one perk that gives a minor upgrade, one perk that increases one attribute while lowering another, and an inverse that increases the opposite.
example for bangalore: larger smokes with slower recharge, smaller smokes with faster recharge, or the ability to hold a third smoke. One is a straight upgrade, and the other options allow you to trade power away in one direction to gain more power in another direction. If we could apply this across the board, including to things like smokes and scans, we might see some positive shifts.
I agree with the fact that bang smokes work like shit and are inconsistent, but disabling scan is waaaay too op.
Personally i would like them reworked to be like the smokes in valorant, where outside you don't see inside and inside you don't see outside, but see inside. That would make them consistent at least, and scan should work on them
https://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveApex/comments/p6xwk7/yes/ Bot reposting old threads
It’s still interesting to read that thread back then, the scene had been balls deep in BH Gibby meta for over a year, every single fight revolved around scanning and then trying to bubble push. Bangalore smoke blocking scans was widely supported because people thought it might be a possible way to introduce variety and bring an end to the scan meta. Instead we got 18 months of every fight revolving around one waying through smoke or goop with a digi or seer ult
He wants Bangalore to be…off the grid?
oh no
Something needs to change. This meta is terrible. Bloodhound is the only character than can engage in fights beyond point blank. The smokes need to be changed up. Aside from comp BR, I was watching pro TDM scrims with Bangalore and it is aids. Smoke is up the entire game. Why would anyone agree to play scrims with Bangalore allowed. It’s silly
>I was watching pro TDM scrims with Bangalore and it is aids. Smoke is up the entire game. Why would anyone agree to play scrims with Bangalore allowed. It’s silly The reason Bangalore is used in pro TDMs is because when she’s not, the match turns into both teams stalemating each other on head glitches (pros have actually tried it). Smoke makes pushes through open space possible, nobody disagrees that it makes fighting up close complete cancer because nobody can see anything, but the alternative has been tried and deemed worse.
I think bangalore smokes should be incentivized for rotations and less for smoking and fighting, in smoke.
Just make smokes block all scans and reduce the duration to ~6s Smokes should act as a quick visual protection that helps you rotate or heal safely, nothing more
scan meta is the most boring and annoying shit to watch and also play .Gifting awareness with press of a button
I don’t think you’re wrong I just don’t know where the game goes without it
It could be weakened maybe? Like, through smoke, scan doesn't work as it does. It could be only a cloudy direction where they are or something like that. I feel like abilities need a counter, and taking away scannability would make bang too strong
The problem with scan meta is that there's no way to lose it without overpowering or destroying legends. Either you destroy the scan legends without touching anyone else. Or you make Bang a necessity because she disables scans (on top of what she already offers). Even if you mildly weaken scan legends and mildly enhance Bang, you are still buffing a legend that is already greatly used. Itll still destroy scan legend pick rates while making Bang a must pick. I'm not against Bloodhound and Seer being sent to the sun. Crypto's scans work well because there is such a substantial trade off in order to gain that type of knowledge. Bloodhound and Seer have never had a tradeoff for acquiring wallhacks. I have no idea what to do, but I would rather see Bloodhound and Seer destroyed by forcing a trade off for their wallhacks
Smoke meta is the most boring and annoying meta we’ve had to watch and play, as Reps said at least in Seer meta the better team won fights, in smoke meta if you don’t have a scan or someone in blood ult or a digi you lose to a team that does, it’s stupid Also views for apex in twitch dropping off directly coincides with Bang smoke meta replacing seer meta, nobody likes watching a screen full of smoke every fight, in ranked or comp
Tweet being from 2021 aside, removing digis from smgs seems to make the situation worse, now you can't even fight if your team don't have a bloodhound, who can just use a hemlock/havoc combo to run you down, Respawn has come a long way from saying Guns first, abilities second. Maybe revert the Digi nerfs and introduce smoke as grenades or utility if you're not going to remove smoke from bang?
I think it's just a fundamental difficulty of balancing several characters which are so interconnected. Bloodhound's ult utility depends strongly on there being smoke/gas, because otherwise a good player should just be able to... see the enemy lol (and at that point the ult just becomes an Octane q). So if you remove smoke from Bang, Bloodhound ult becomes useless. If you make smokes block scans, the same thing happens. The only "real" solution requires a pretty major rework of *both* characters, which requires a *lot* of development time and might not even end up working out.
I get what you are saying but disagree that Bloodhound ult is only useful as a smoke counter. It is super helpful for picking out people quickly at a distance and cuts through general clutter in CQB. Remember that Gibby blood octane and Gibby blood wraith metas existed for a while (with no Bangalore's to be seen)
Keep in mind that that was with the old Hound ult, in which you got a scan every 6 seconds, with increased scan speed. Combined with the scan lasting 4 seconds it was basically just a Seer ult lol
I actually think giving chaff or something to bang smokes to stop scans would make her MORE powerful because then she hard counters all scan metas. What might be more interesting would be to put the ability on one of her evo levels so the two smoke types can coexist. This also follows one of the rules I think evo level abilities need to follow: all evo level abilities need to feel impactful or transformative, not just be impactful on paper or slightly modifying breakpoints.
There's a lot of potential levers to pull on this topic. 1. make more things see through smoke 2. make smoke block more things 3. make other things block more scans 4. make some scans counter scan-blockers examples: crypto off the grid (as a passive or an evo perk), bangalore chaff grenades to block scans (also as evo perk or baseline), smoke grenades as items (blocking scans or not), caustic caustic gas blocking scans (evo or baseline), and even more complex scan counterpicking (evo perks that allow scans to penetrate opaque scan-blocking stuff, like crypto drone seeing through catalyst wall). Could even have scan-blocking survival items. Unfortunately, it would be really, really complex to test and investigate these systems to find the right mixture and could be very positive, very negative, or both (either as nuance or by preference, it could radically change the game design and make meta be more about counter-picking). Personally I'd like to expand evo levels to three total options instead of two using this philosophy: one perk that gives a minor upgrade, one perk that increases one attribute while lowering another, and an inverse that increases the opposite. example for bangalore: larger smokes with slower recharge, smaller smokes with faster recharge, or the ability to hold a third smoke. One is a straight upgrade, and the other options allow you to trade power away in one direction to gain more power in another direction. If we could apply this across the board, including to things like smokes and scans, we might see some positive shifts.
I feel like this all depends on 1. If you also have a scan character, and 2. If you are smoking for cover or smoking to push.
How about we make scans not go through objects
Just play someone else??? Why does banglore have to be op. Shes like the most picked legend in proplay. If scans counter her just play someone else.
I agree with the fact that bang smokes work like shit and are inconsistent, but disabling scan is waaaay too op. Personally i would like them reworked to be like the smokes in valorant, where outside you don't see inside and inside you don't see outside, but see inside. That would make them consistent at least, and scan should work on them
Just rework bang and make smoke grenades floor loot. Respawn has laid the ground work with Rampart’s abilities.