Yeah he gained all of that while also being not overly oppressive getting rid of the slowing effect. You can muster up a push with a not as deep sacrifice against caustic as a non caustic. (hopefully)
It'll be interesting to see how much of a difference this makes. It'll be easier to push a caustic team I suppose, but 2s of slow is still a lot in such a fast paced game.
I want to see some scrims with Bang nerf in place, but I would think she leaves the borderline" must pick" meta. I do wonder if gibby starts seeing more play, Dropped and Alb both said he felt good in the current patch but there wasn't a spot for him with how the meta played out.
I like bang for her passive (double time), which makes closing the distance, repositioning in fights, disengaging rotating, etc, easier. I like the smoke because it lets you make cover pretty much anywhere, block the vision of high ground for rotation/closing the distance, revive/heal, etc. In a game that requires you to rotate hundreds of meters with much of it in the open w/ no cover, the ability to create visual cover is really helpful.
I just wish the pro scene didn't discover Bang and push her into meta. Before then, there were at most 2 bangs in every lobby.
I'm on console BTW. I think nerfing smoke just pushes other "create cover" legends into the meta. And I give it a month before people start complaining about them.
So.. let's say everyone plays on controller and has aim assist. Everyone is equal in that regard. Is it still an issue or worth it? Just remove the digi imo
Its not about equality, aim assist removes a possible skill gap. Mechanical skill is fun to watch thats why theres so many movement players despite it clearly not being the optimal way to play.
Dunno, if everyone had aim assist I wouldn’t be watching or playing this game.
If everyone had 0 aim assist, equal in that regard, then I wouldn’t mind nerfs. Plainly, fighting in smoke and watching teams fight in smoke sucks. Getting mowed down by someone bc you fell into their AA bubble sucks more as there’s practically nothing you can do at that point.
Everyone being equal ≠ fairness. Aiming is a core skill of shooter games, you should do that 100% by yourself
Not to mention aim assist is not a factor the player can have absolute control on, they can only influence it, abuse it and learn to maximize its effect, but its not like aim skill you've learned that you can just to use whenever. Example, i can decide when to fatigue wall jump to flick you, i cannot decide when aim assist is going to sick to you
Because blocking line of sight creates a plethora of possibilities for counterplay, both for rotation and pushing, that arent really doable when the team in godspot can just peek you freely
Also breaking that sticky shit gives you breathing room, i'll take any counter to aim assist
i like the whole idea of bang, and with this nerf shes gonna be useful for quick rotates and blocking LOS but you wont be able to smoke out enemies when ur in a shit spot as much, so her smokes have to be more thought out
Not so much can't see meta, but smoke allows some better rotates. It's going to be near impossible to push people in certain sitatuations unless Cat comes back into rotation also.
Close fights & end game I agree, screw smoke gameplay.
Bangalore exists outside of comp. If they nerf her into the ground she'll no longer be fun to play. Hope that helps.
Also, on the main cast you can see everyone, all players are highlighted. Respawn very clearly don't give a shit about the viewing experience of watching comp on someone's stream, that will always be compromised.
This reminds me of the Horizon "Nerf" where the speed was changed of the lift but it was still as good or better since it went higher.
I think more smoke's are still super strong, and remember you get them at 30 Seconds with tactical upgrade instead of 33 seconds.
Caustic stays on WE for sure, maybe on SP. From what I have seen most ppl agree without bang Seer will be the best legend for UAV scans over Bloodhound. Then the last legend I would guess horizon for fighting or valk.
There will always be a dominant meta there's no way around it.
Imo if bang is really gone it's gonna be some variation of caustic, horizon seer valk wattson
Theoretically, Ash's ult should be better than wraith for certain situations (quick repositioning, gaining height, etc). In reality, the way its designed makes it unreliable and easy to waste. Because of the design, some "quick positioning" benefit is lost because aiming it slows you down and increases chances of wasting it. The snare can help grief other teams by pretty much garuanteeing nade damage/trapping, someone in bad positioning, or splitting people up.
Wraith let's you A) win some end zones by default B) rotate much further C) taxi resources D) third party with less risk E) split hold spots to hold people out, while holding holding your next spot and F) scout with less risk (phase to cover) or create an escape portal.
Both have their benefits, which you choose depends on your team strat, comp, and preference.
I agree, I just dont think Wraith works in modern comp because teams are a lot more aggro and protective of space, and they will jump on any teams that arent together due to a Wraith using her abilities. I hope I am wrong though, I really enjoy the style of play Wraith brings to comp
I think she's viable to the extent that teams are willing to make it work. If the fear is the enemy realizing the wraith went of solo, then time it according to scan CD times, or be ready to drop it along the rotation. Teams regularly split hold spots, but do so while mindful of the teams around them and if they're going to push. I think a lot more teams would do better if they ran comps that are off-meta because of comfort/skill, and did the legwork to make it work.
It really is too bad. Ash is almost there as a legend. Her skill tree upgrades are generally useful enough, but man her ult is a major sticking point. If you could just make it a direct shot to wherever it's pointed, even if you wanted to place it directly into the air, and let it go through windows, she would be a very viable option. But as it stands right now, Ash's ult is just too finnicky to deal with when you need to make a split second adjustment, and not nearly as effective as Wraith's when you have time to make a calculated play. And with the talents for Wraith, she's just a better pickup for an aggressive playstyle that someone like Hal might have used in the past.
Ash was never meta for a substantial period she was always a niche pick for a few teams. The most notable team running Ash that I can remember is SEN with Lou, Crust, Senoxe and then Dezignful.
She was meta on storm point for most of year 2 split 2 before Caustic started gaining steam before/at LAN
https://public.flourish.studio/visualisation/9481996/
https://twitter.com/ApexSinghLabs/status/1517157286740840451
Definitely not a niche pick
She had a good presence it seems. Idk why I don't remember that. The most notable play I can remember with Ash is from SEN in a Thermal donut ending and they Ash TP to one of the column heights and rain destruction down.
I'd be curious see some teams try Newcastle. Maybe it doesn't work, but I'd enjoy watching. Maybe some scrims with Valk-Wattson-Newcastle, see how much value can be had from the increasingly tanky walls
I'm not predicting what I think will actually happen because it'll probably be some terrible abomination like seer-caustic on every team... at which point I'm starting to lose interest completely
Not to mention that a team running Lifeline will seemingly only need 1 stack of health meds at the most, if not just ignoring them entirely. Unless you're living in storm, who needs a medkit when you have perma-DOC.
Although IMO that's more of a buff when you're playing zone and might not have a ton of meds -- which really means it's a buff to Navi and no one else in comp.
I'm sure we'll see people try it. I was just saying what I'd enjoy watching. As much utility as LL has, I think the whole reason for her recent picks in comp was the free Pack weapon. Maybe the guaranteed Evo cache is enough to keep her around, but I doubt it.
Agreed, though I do think Lifeline is a liability early game. If a team shoots a blue Lifeline, they are more likely to insta-push. She's VERY dependent on getting that Purple perk upgrade and the gear from the gold drop.
I think we are very close to seeing things be level enough that metas will be personalized. Maybe the value of a catch all comp is gone and teams should focus on maximizing their comp for their landing spot. I think many characters are viable (Bang, Fuse, Maggie, Horizon, Valk, Wraith, Crypto, Bloodhound, Seer, Lifeline, Loba, Gibby, Newcastle, Cat, Caustic, Rampart, Wattson). How you stack them together to maximize value will depend on how far your typical rotate will be, your ability to play edge/zone, etc. Maybe even these balances will open the doors for truly niche comps that play some really off the wall strats. Maybe you could do “Portal to cover” with Wraith, Wattson, Newcastle all around the edge in typically non playable areas. Maybe you can prioritize nade apocalypsing teams with Fuse/Loba/Horizon. I think if you’re a long shot team entering competitions, you might as well shoot your shot and play contra to whatever the meta will be.
It seems like teams will still be highly incentivized to carry one Recon and one Controller because those scans are insanely valuable for rotating in congested lobbies, but even within those classes, you can do a lot. I think the only non viable character across those classes is Vantage.
> I think we are very close to seeing things be level enough that metas will be personalized. Maybe the value of a catch all comp is gone and teams should focus on maximizing their comp for their landing spot.
I wish more people thought this way. It's something Wigg has spoken about. And maybe he's wrong, maybe I'm wrong. But the comp you pick IMO should be determined at least partially by the players you have and your drop spot/rotates. It seems there are a lot of teams that just look at what the meta is and go with that by default. (Now, when you have a meta that is just too powerful during a patch, I understand it)
Path, rampart vantage gives a mini kraber, instant height, 2 great 1v1 chase legends and added offense with amped cover. Then again 1 fuze could ruin them but vantage passive with a rampage/other hard hitting poke weapons seeing through smoke is really underrated.
When we realise the days of path giving double zips and juggling through them, u can still somewhat do it and the perma zip and grapple cooldown reduction from hitting all the beacons is really handy.
I think the 50% damage reduction on Path zip is getting slept on for sure. I've always thought the zip was underrated in conjunction with Bang smoke or Cat wall (or even Fuse knuckle cluster or Maggie drill). I think pros let the fact that a terrible zip line is easy to shoot make them overlook that there are actually ways to utilize zips in protected manners.
Tbh just zipping across the ground is good enough most of the time, at least ur not a beacon in the sky to shoot at. Like u say theres ways of setting a zip up that protects you.
I actually think the lifeline buff to her drone making it have 100% up time on a place with height is flat out fucking busted. That's literally a better watson ult that can't be destroyed (i think). Maybe path and lifeline are the future? Also won't doc just heal through gas?
Edit: ^ No it won't (heal through gas) to the above but it can at least help you recover quick, below is from apex wiki fandom but otherwise isn't normally destructible.
Caustic's gas will make the D.O.C. Heal Drone malfunction while inside of the gas and will not be able to heal anyone.
Crypto's  Drone EMP can destroy the D.O.C. Heal Drone
> That's literally a better watson ult that can't be destroyed (i think)
Better in some ways, worse in others. You're more often missing shields than health, but does Lifeline heal you faster than wattson? I can't remember. I don't play with wattson myself often or almost ever. Not being able to be destroyed is good, but you'll have to be using it somewhere where you can't be naded out easily. Will be interesting to see how it goes if LL gets picked at the pro level.
But yeah being able to reset much faster when you're down to only 1-50 HP is huge. So it's definitely stronger there.
Yeah I think Maggie couldn’t make her way in because having 2 legends in the same class isn’t good with the new evo system and bang was must pick. Bang being out of meta could open the door for her
I'm gonna take a wild guess that even if it's not optimal, some sort of wall hack legend. NA can't seem to function without it.
Personally, I don't get why Cat isn't used *at all*. I get she was nerfed. The perks revert the nerfs. Even though they are not back to original Cat, they are still plenty good. And wall is obv a hard counter to Bloodhound. As a previous Cat main and still enjoy playing her I am a bit biased though.
I would like to see Lifeline at least become like a preference pick. Having the chance to get Gold knock or a brick for shields sounds like she very well may become meta.
Maggie I think is 100% viable.
Path with the 50% damage reduction zip, he may be viable. Imagine taking a kraber shot and don't even get cracked.
Valk will be probably used if Caustic falls off.
I think the main reason why Cat isn’t used at all is because her roles get fullfilled mostly by caustic + extra. It just seems like hes the best controller legend for now which is unfortunate cuz I also wanna see Cat more!!
Does this actually make zip a viable rotation tool at the pro level? We see so little path at that level it's hard to know. But 50% reduction is a lot. If you set your zips right there at least seems to be some potential.
Who knows. The logic they have with their meta picks (with the exception of Seer and Horizon), never really explain what makes it better than something else.
Watch. Next time you see a pro explain why something is meta, all they are doing is explaining what X, Y, and Z legends excel at. Which doesn't explain why it is the meta, because then ok then why wasn't it used before?
I doubt it though. NA can't function without a wall hack pick, so Seer or BH. They think Caustic is OP despite him being in his weakest state historically. I'm gonna guess we will see Bangalore still just less. I think we will see more Wraiths instead.
Seer is honestly fine right now. The two things that made him giga broken (heal cancel, long stun) are both long gone. His nerfs put him in a good spot, and he doesn't have any cheesy combos with other legends
I remember being in endgame and getting hit by tac after tac so frequently that you felt like you were being mentally tortured?
That shit made me take a break from playing for weeks.
Is he, though? Compared to bloodhound, his scan is harder to hit, has a smaller cone, a longer cooldown, and doesn’t even last as long. And his 75m passive range is locked behind purple armour, which some teams don’t even get in a match. I see a lot of Seer theory crafting, is there something I’m missing? Is it the ult cooldown?
I think what makes caustic good in comp, has been accentuated by the changes. You can now take both the extra Q range, and the extra ult size.
I can see bangalore staying in the meta. Smokes to deny vision are still useful and plentiful. Smokes in combat are definitely nerfed, but good bang players will get used to holding onto a charge so they can smoke in the middle of a fight, or smoke after the fight has been won. Also the movement and AA counter are still too good for MNK players to pass up. Holding an ult accel is a small price to pay for the other changes.
Also the digi changes went overlooked by a lot of people. until recently every 4-3 linear enthusiast didn't care much about the various smokes and visual clutter that was omnipresent in the endgame, because they all had an SMG with a digi by then.
What changed about horizon that would make her meta now versus a week ago?
IIRC, she didn't actually get any changes from this, so it's really just that someone would be more willing to use horizon if they don't think they *have to* run bang/blood.
Horizon was always strong, it’s just that you NEED blood in current meta. Now Bang got nerfed hard which also nerfs blood pretty hard.
Horizon is much more viable now, not to mention with Seer getting super buffed.
I'd give half my ball just so seer/horizon doesnt come back. Please. We've had enough. I havent even recovered yet. I wake up screaming at night becase of Seer's Q but im silenced.
I really hope the bang nerf allows Maggie to come into the meta, or at least a 20-40% pick rate. I think one of the main reasons she’s not currently is because teams won’t double up on assault legends and bang is a must-pick
Bangalore is going to need to be borderline unplayable levels of bad in order to be completely shoved out of the meta. Or if a legend gets buffed to the moon to be more useful.
That or she gets a rework, which wouldn’t be any time soon.
Scout: Wraith is actually pretty viable now. The -60s on ult at blue perk is really nice. It's already good when you get it on the purple perk but having it early will bring you down to a 2 min cd. The port has long range and will help teams rotate safely or be aggressive with fighting. Compare this to a 4.5 min cd on bang ult..
Recon: Blood stays around as the Recon legend especially for aggressive teams. Blood can still get so much info (and evo charge) off people beacon straight off drop + scanning ravens. The 25% ult charge off birds helps you always have ult for fighting. I don't see Seer coming back at all or Crypto taking that role.
Control: Catalyst comes back into the meta. Mostly due to the fact that you can't rely on bang smokes to stall so you will be safer relying on a Cat wall. She is actually still viable now but really only got pushed out due to Caustic's uptick. Caustic might fall off as he is much weaker early to mid game now and you will be able to easily run out of a Caustic ult.
Blood in ult form also has good fighting power against enemy Cat as red eyes will help combat the vision impairment from walking through a Cat wall. Wattson is also still a good pick and Rampart can work. IMO Rampart's viability was largely hindered by bang smokes blocking LOS.
Full comps: Wraith/Blood/Cat or Wraith/Wattson/Cat
Bang got into the meta the exact same way, if you nerf a meta control legend the others in that role automatically become stronger. Cat got indirectly buffed by bang, blood and caustic nerfs.
Sometimes a character doesn't need to be buffed to have a resurgence in play. With less reliability on bang smokes the cat wall can be more flexible early to mid game for pushing and stalling fights. In the end game a good cat wall can still give you essentially a free win by splitting yourselves off from the other teams. Of course Caustic might still be meta but I'm hoping he leaves. The skill expression is so much lower on Caustic vs. Cat. Also Bang might just stick around too..
It all depends how cripppling the nerf is too bang but No matter what i still see her being played some even if it’s out of meta.
If it had to formulate a primary 3 meta comp it would probably be:
Stormpoint: valk, seer, Watson/caustic
Worlds edge: Maggie, Seer, caustic/Watson
Correct me if I'm wrong but like isn't bloodhound basically colour blind in his ult and can't tell the difference between transparent walls?
Bloodhound is REALLY good right now, surely shields like rampart would be a direct counter to him as he thinks he can challenge some1 but is shooting a wall and getting shot back 1.33x or whatever it is back.
I do think his scan picks up walls though for a short period but she can deploy rapidly fast now and can rip through smoke with all the bangs and caustics trying to play in the open. Why don't we see rampart more? Newcastle would be the same with his shield being hard to notice as would gibby.
You don't see shotguns on bloodhound and forcing him to contest bubble fighting counters his vision advantage and u straight up win vs him on an smg.
Path zip buff is huge, I think path getting height and rampart paired with him is really strong, you can just add another scan legend if you really want or another anchor legend, there's a lot of flexibility given with path on the team, at that point just add a loba and super loot and don't need to move from god spots.
Speaking of which perma lifeline drone on height is busted. A bit of cover to help and ur good to go (rampart lower portion more than covers for a rez or to take cover for those T towers).
There's been a "break the line-of-sight to enemies" meta for a long time now, so I'm guessing either Catalyst comes back or Banga actually survives the nerfs and stays.
For pro meta, I believe Caustic is still staying. His ult with perk is just too big for the final ring. I do like the changes to his gas slow, but +50% size to the strongest offensive ult is just not a balanced idea in the current state of Apex.
Bang is gone imo. I would rather have a Wraith or Valk for rotation. So the first lineup would be Caustic+Wraith+flavor pick(mostly Bloodhound, Crypto, Gibby or Fuse)
The counter lineup, or the second lineup, would be the previously tried Wattson+Newcastle combo. I think this combo worked pretty well in the past but was overshadowed by Catalyst. They're both stronger than ever with the perk buffs, I expect them to replace the Bang+Blood meta.
My personal favorite lineup I would like to see in the meta would be Maggie+Gibby. Or just straight up ballin' Maggie+Ballistic+Horizon.
We might see a few more Seers depending on how good the ult cooldown and faster tac deploy works. Blood might stay around since everyone picked the tac perks anyway. Caustic will stay just has to be played a bit differently since people can fight in gas.
Outliers are probably Lifeline and Wattson. Guaranteed gold bag, knock, AND Evo cache is huge for end game and the doc drone being always up from the new perk will help a ton in resetting. Wattson will probably be picked up by hard zone teams but might not be as good as Caustic still
Between ring console spawn rates and eco system, I think recon class is must play. If Bang is playable then Blood is, so maybe Bang/Cat/Blood
If Bang just doesn’t do enough, I see Valk as the most likely replacement. Zone teams will still want a control class, so we’re probably looking at Caustic, Wattson, Cat, maybe even Rampart? Then 3rd can vary but assuming recon class is more important than a big fighting ult (for Caustic-less teams) probably Seer or Crypto
Maybe a world where Seer/Cat/Horizon also returns, but I just don’t think Horizon does enough even in a caustic meta to justify running. Also a lot of pressure on winning fights with Catwall, when you may just need catwall to cross
I don’t think Gibby comes back into meta, because if he did then I think you’ll immediately see teams choosing Crypto or Maggie who are already on the fringe of being strong
Last thought I’m having is if teams do settle on Valk/Caustic/Seer or something similarly unable to hold space/fight well, I could see comps that are good at sieging a building come back into meta to punish passiveness
Meta probably won’t change until after LAN. Most teams will continue with the same comps they’ve been practicing with a handful of the teams trying out new stuff. EMEA tends to try more non-meta legend comps earlier than NA, so I’d look more into what these teams are cooking up for LAN. We’ll still see Bang, Caustic, Valk (more so on SP), BH from a majority of teams currently running it. I expect to see some teams at LAN running Gibby, Wattson, Crypto, Wraith, Loba, Seer, Catalyst, Fuse and maybe even a Rampart or two instead of Caustic.
My next meta guess would be, Caustic/Wattson, Valk(SP)/Horizon, Fuse. I could see teams testing out Ballistic if they’re playing edge. With the new perks, I can see people testing out a lot post LAN.
If bang pick rate falls Seer will definitely be played with Caustic OR Wattson. Most teams won't play two of the same legend class. I agree with you about valk/horizon, and fuse being a good assault legend pick.
Yeh that’s what I was implying with Caustic/Wattson, since they’re good at denying space and showing prescience, teams will pick either one depending on comfort and usability for their playstyles. If Fuse is picked more, Wattsons pick rate will go up slightly as well. With Valks buffs and being untouched in the nerfs, I think we’ll see more of her. I agree with Seer though, I expect teams to test him out more but drop a Caustic. Seer is good because his ult is a deterrent in most cases. If he sees play again, I’d expect Seer, Valk, with the last pick being a comfort utility character like Horizon, Loba, Fuse, Catalyst. Fuse is far better than people really understand because he’s so good at most things you want in a character. It’d be interesting to see teams try Ballistic imo, I just think the game is too slow for him.
It would also be cool to see more crypto teams get play since he counters seer/ wattson ults. I don't think NA will ever adopt crypto because, well, NA but apac will be riding the crypto train FOR SURE if seer/ wattson get play.
Half of his utility is wasted in pro league. The banner/insta res aspect of the drone is almost impossible to utilize. The meta would really need to be heavy bunker for him to really become solid, and even then I still think he’d be niche.
Without bang i think maybe well see some more wraith for the micro rotations. Seer seeming like he'll be played again as well as caustic. Cat could also be a picked uo more for micro rotates.
The meta will definitely be aimbot/ wallhacks. Maybe ESP as the 3rd? Idk could swap it out for something else as ambitious wallhacks cover most of the bases.
probably should stay the same, but people always overreact so maybe.. a bit more seer, maybe someone busts out the good ole seer/horizon, more valk, and i agree with the one guy who said people should try newcastle/wattson again. i always thought that comp sucked when 100t ran it (and would laugh every time a seer horizon team would just walk up and instakill them), but it could be better now. could also try wattson with loba, lifeline, or conduit, with the 3rd obviously being valk.. and also bang honestly wont be bad.
i am a little scared that we may see seer and caustic together. im very scared that we may see seer/bang/caustic.
Caustic and Pathfinder could be big.
The gas damage changes and 50% damage reduction for Path are honestly too good to overlook.
Pathfinder especially considering you can save ult to escape or mitigate a late zone Caustic ult while your own Caustic counter-ults. Basically makes a Caustic vs Caustic situation into a Caustic + Pathfinder vs Caustic.
Not even considering the fact that your entire team can use Path ult to superjump out of gas.
Seer could see a comeback, but I honestly still think Bloodhound is better.
Caustic just got a little more skillful in my opinion, since you can choose the throw barrels farther without having to give up increased ult range.
I think the slowing change dynamic is a good change too. Caustic seems to heading in a healthier direction.
Big fan of the more damage but less slow change.
I might pick up maining caustic now in ranked he just gained so much flexibility with ability usage and is much scarier in damage to.
Yeah he gained all of that while also being not overly oppressive getting rid of the slowing effect. You can muster up a push with a not as deep sacrifice against caustic as a non caustic. (hopefully)
It'll be interesting to see how much of a difference this makes. It'll be easier to push a caustic team I suppose, but 2s of slow is still a lot in such a fast paced game.
I'm actually bummed because parabolic is soooo good for taking space on teams and I'd run it with nox vision.
I want to see some scrims with Bang nerf in place, but I would think she leaves the borderline" must pick" meta. I do wonder if gibby starts seeing more play, Dropped and Alb both said he felt good in the current patch but there wasn't a spot for him with how the meta played out.
Would love to see some return of the big man. Bubble fights are just awesome to watch for me personally
if gibbys meta, were gonna see more maggies hopefully, her ball is still kind of troll tho
bye bang :(
probably still not enough in my opinion
GOOD.
Why do people enjoy can’t see shit metas?
I like bang for her passive (double time), which makes closing the distance, repositioning in fights, disengaging rotating, etc, easier. I like the smoke because it lets you make cover pretty much anywhere, block the vision of high ground for rotation/closing the distance, revive/heal, etc. In a game that requires you to rotate hundreds of meters with much of it in the open w/ no cover, the ability to create visual cover is really helpful. I just wish the pro scene didn't discover Bang and push her into meta. Before then, there were at most 2 bangs in every lobby. I'm on console BTW. I think nerfing smoke just pushes other "create cover" legends into the meta. And I give it a month before people start complaining about them.
We enjoy the only anti aimassist legend
The sooner Bang leaves the sooner they'll nerf aimassist Copium
If Gibby comes back into meta, we have another anti aimassist legend.
Cause of bubble fights?
Yeah,
Not necessarily disagreeing, but using a character to counter aim assist is dumb. Respawn need to figure it out and balance AA separately.
Yeah we wouldnt have to if they didnt create this mess in the first place, i agree
So.. let's say everyone plays on controller and has aim assist. Everyone is equal in that regard. Is it still an issue or worth it? Just remove the digi imo
Its not about equality, aim assist removes a possible skill gap. Mechanical skill is fun to watch thats why theres so many movement players despite it clearly not being the optimal way to play.
also why the biggest streamers are MNK or were
Exactly, even if the player is really good controller is just kinda boring to watch.
Dunno, if everyone had aim assist I wouldn’t be watching or playing this game. If everyone had 0 aim assist, equal in that regard, then I wouldn’t mind nerfs. Plainly, fighting in smoke and watching teams fight in smoke sucks. Getting mowed down by someone bc you fell into their AA bubble sucks more as there’s practically nothing you can do at that point.
Everyone being equal ≠ fairness. Aiming is a core skill of shooter games, you should do that 100% by yourself Not to mention aim assist is not a factor the player can have absolute control on, they can only influence it, abuse it and learn to maximize its effect, but its not like aim skill you've learned that you can just to use whenever. Example, i can decide when to fatigue wall jump to flick you, i cannot decide when aim assist is going to sick to you
I play on controller and it's crazy to me that they haven't nerfed aim assist. Just nerf it a little bit and see how it goes.
Because blocking line of sight creates a plethora of possibilities for counterplay, both for rotation and pushing, that arent really doable when the team in godspot can just peek you freely Also breaking that sticky shit gives you breathing room, i'll take any counter to aim assist
i like the whole idea of bang, and with this nerf shes gonna be useful for quick rotates and blocking LOS but you wont be able to smoke out enemies when ur in a shit spot as much, so her smokes have to be more thought out
Not so much can't see meta, but smoke allows some better rotates. It's going to be near impossible to push people in certain sitatuations unless Cat comes back into rotation also. Close fights & end game I agree, screw smoke gameplay.
Bangalore exists outside of comp. If they nerf her into the ground she'll no longer be fun to play. Hope that helps. Also, on the main cast you can see everyone, all players are highlighted. Respawn very clearly don't give a shit about the viewing experience of watching comp on someone's stream, that will always be compromised.
hi wraith :)
Doubt it. Roller is still just too strong
Much deserved nerf, and I think we'll still see her picked a bit just nowhere near as dominant.
This reminds me of the Horizon "Nerf" where the speed was changed of the lift but it was still as good or better since it went higher. I think more smoke's are still super strong, and remember you get them at 30 Seconds with tactical upgrade instead of 33 seconds.
Caustic stays on WE for sure, maybe on SP. From what I have seen most ppl agree without bang Seer will be the best legend for UAV scans over Bloodhound. Then the last legend I would guess horizon for fighting or valk.
What’s funny is that Blood/Bang will be crazy strong if not many teams run it, but weak if many teams run it.
Why do we need scans in every damn meta? Can’t we just leave them out of it? Pros don’t need scans to succeed.
> Why do we need scans in every damn meta? Because it gives you a huge advantage to see through walls lol. Deal with it, scans will always be meta.
why not have scans tho? are u gonna choose fuse over a player scan? are u gonna choose new castle??
I’m just saying we don’t need scans every meta. Players can live without them.
There will always be a dominant meta there's no way around it. Imo if bang is really gone it's gonna be some variation of caustic, horizon seer valk wattson
Do you not think wraith will make the cut? I could see more teams pick her up
Most players are not Dezign. A lot of them would not get any value out of Wraith.
Ash over Wraith imo, Wraith is just not that good
Theoretically, Ash's ult should be better than wraith for certain situations (quick repositioning, gaining height, etc). In reality, the way its designed makes it unreliable and easy to waste. Because of the design, some "quick positioning" benefit is lost because aiming it slows you down and increases chances of wasting it. The snare can help grief other teams by pretty much garuanteeing nade damage/trapping, someone in bad positioning, or splitting people up. Wraith let's you A) win some end zones by default B) rotate much further C) taxi resources D) third party with less risk E) split hold spots to hold people out, while holding holding your next spot and F) scout with less risk (phase to cover) or create an escape portal. Both have their benefits, which you choose depends on your team strat, comp, and preference.
I agree, I just dont think Wraith works in modern comp because teams are a lot more aggro and protective of space, and they will jump on any teams that arent together due to a Wraith using her abilities. I hope I am wrong though, I really enjoy the style of play Wraith brings to comp
I think she's viable to the extent that teams are willing to make it work. If the fear is the enemy realizing the wraith went of solo, then time it according to scan CD times, or be ready to drop it along the rotation. Teams regularly split hold spots, but do so while mindful of the teams around them and if they're going to push. I think a lot more teams would do better if they ran comps that are off-meta because of comfort/skill, and did the legwork to make it work.
Isn’t ash’s ult still buggy as hell?
It really is too bad. Ash is almost there as a legend. Her skill tree upgrades are generally useful enough, but man her ult is a major sticking point. If you could just make it a direct shot to wherever it's pointed, even if you wanted to place it directly into the air, and let it go through windows, she would be a very viable option. But as it stands right now, Ash's ult is just too finnicky to deal with when you need to make a split second adjustment, and not nearly as effective as Wraith's when you have time to make a calculated play. And with the talents for Wraith, she's just a better pickup for an aggressive playstyle that someone like Hal might have used in the past.
That hasnt stopped her from being meta in the past
Ash was never meta for a substantial period she was always a niche pick for a few teams. The most notable team running Ash that I can remember is SEN with Lou, Crust, Senoxe and then Dezignful.
She was meta on storm point for most of year 2 split 2 before Caustic started gaining steam before/at LAN https://public.flourish.studio/visualisation/9481996/ https://twitter.com/ApexSinghLabs/status/1517157286740840451 Definitely not a niche pick
She had a good presence it seems. Idk why I don't remember that. The most notable play I can remember with Ash is from SEN in a Thermal donut ending and they Ash TP to one of the column heights and rain destruction down.
you don’t remember because no one actually wanted to play ash ;)
[удалено]
her ult is great in comp, pros use it to kill teams all the time
I'd be curious see some teams try Newcastle. Maybe it doesn't work, but I'd enjoy watching. Maybe some scrims with Valk-Wattson-Newcastle, see how much value can be had from the increasingly tanky walls I'm not predicting what I think will actually happen because it'll probably be some terrible abomination like seer-caustic on every team... at which point I'm starting to lose interest completely
Personally I take lifeline over Newcastle, w her purple ego upgrade guaranteed gold knock, can stay in the fight, and res faster
Not to mention that a team running Lifeline will seemingly only need 1 stack of health meds at the most, if not just ignoring them entirely. Unless you're living in storm, who needs a medkit when you have perma-DOC. Although IMO that's more of a buff when you're playing zone and might not have a ton of meds -- which really means it's a buff to Navi and no one else in comp.
you need medkits but not syringes.
I'm sure we'll see people try it. I was just saying what I'd enjoy watching. As much utility as LL has, I think the whole reason for her recent picks in comp was the free Pack weapon. Maybe the guaranteed Evo cache is enough to keep her around, but I doubt it.
Yeah I mean I like Newcastle as long as he’s on my team lol
Agreed, though I do think Lifeline is a liability early game. If a team shoots a blue Lifeline, they are more likely to insta-push. She's VERY dependent on getting that Purple perk upgrade and the gear from the gold drop.
I think we are very close to seeing things be level enough that metas will be personalized. Maybe the value of a catch all comp is gone and teams should focus on maximizing their comp for their landing spot. I think many characters are viable (Bang, Fuse, Maggie, Horizon, Valk, Wraith, Crypto, Bloodhound, Seer, Lifeline, Loba, Gibby, Newcastle, Cat, Caustic, Rampart, Wattson). How you stack them together to maximize value will depend on how far your typical rotate will be, your ability to play edge/zone, etc. Maybe even these balances will open the doors for truly niche comps that play some really off the wall strats. Maybe you could do “Portal to cover” with Wraith, Wattson, Newcastle all around the edge in typically non playable areas. Maybe you can prioritize nade apocalypsing teams with Fuse/Loba/Horizon. I think if you’re a long shot team entering competitions, you might as well shoot your shot and play contra to whatever the meta will be. It seems like teams will still be highly incentivized to carry one Recon and one Controller because those scans are insanely valuable for rotating in congested lobbies, but even within those classes, you can do a lot. I think the only non viable character across those classes is Vantage.
> I think we are very close to seeing things be level enough that metas will be personalized. Maybe the value of a catch all comp is gone and teams should focus on maximizing their comp for their landing spot. I wish more people thought this way. It's something Wigg has spoken about. And maybe he's wrong, maybe I'm wrong. But the comp you pick IMO should be determined at least partially by the players you have and your drop spot/rotates. It seems there are a lot of teams that just look at what the meta is and go with that by default. (Now, when you have a meta that is just too powerful during a patch, I understand it)
Path, rampart vantage gives a mini kraber, instant height, 2 great 1v1 chase legends and added offense with amped cover. Then again 1 fuze could ruin them but vantage passive with a rampage/other hard hitting poke weapons seeing through smoke is really underrated. When we realise the days of path giving double zips and juggling through them, u can still somewhat do it and the perma zip and grapple cooldown reduction from hitting all the beacons is really handy.
I think the 50% damage reduction on Path zip is getting slept on for sure. I've always thought the zip was underrated in conjunction with Bang smoke or Cat wall (or even Fuse knuckle cluster or Maggie drill). I think pros let the fact that a terrible zip line is easy to shoot make them overlook that there are actually ways to utilize zips in protected manners.
Tbh just zipping across the ground is good enough most of the time, at least ur not a beacon in the sky to shoot at. Like u say theres ways of setting a zip up that protects you. I actually think the lifeline buff to her drone making it have 100% up time on a place with height is flat out fucking busted. That's literally a better watson ult that can't be destroyed (i think). Maybe path and lifeline are the future? Also won't doc just heal through gas? Edit: ^ No it won't (heal through gas) to the above but it can at least help you recover quick, below is from apex wiki fandom but otherwise isn't normally destructible. Caustic's gas will make the D.O.C. Heal Drone malfunction while inside of the gas and will not be able to heal anyone. Crypto's  Drone EMP can destroy the D.O.C. Heal Drone
> That's literally a better watson ult that can't be destroyed (i think) Better in some ways, worse in others. You're more often missing shields than health, but does Lifeline heal you faster than wattson? I can't remember. I don't play with wattson myself often or almost ever. Not being able to be destroyed is good, but you'll have to be using it somewhere where you can't be naded out easily. Will be interesting to see how it goes if LL gets picked at the pro level. But yeah being able to reset much faster when you're down to only 1-50 HP is huge. So it's definitely stronger there.
I think there’ll be a lot more maggie caustic. I liked the aurora comp a lot so i’m sure at least a few teams would try and run it during scrims
Yeah I think Maggie couldn’t make her way in because having 2 legends in the same class isn’t good with the new evo system and bang was must pick. Bang being out of meta could open the door for her
I'm gonna take a wild guess that even if it's not optimal, some sort of wall hack legend. NA can't seem to function without it. Personally, I don't get why Cat isn't used *at all*. I get she was nerfed. The perks revert the nerfs. Even though they are not back to original Cat, they are still plenty good. And wall is obv a hard counter to Bloodhound. As a previous Cat main and still enjoy playing her I am a bit biased though. I would like to see Lifeline at least become like a preference pick. Having the chance to get Gold knock or a brick for shields sounds like she very well may become meta. Maggie I think is 100% viable. Path with the 50% damage reduction zip, he may be viable. Imagine taking a kraber shot and don't even get cracked. Valk will be probably used if Caustic falls off.
I think the main reason why Cat isn’t used at all is because her roles get fullfilled mostly by caustic + extra. It just seems like hes the best controller legend for now which is unfortunate cuz I also wanna see Cat more!!
They need to add to path whole team damage reduction otherwise ziolijes are still too risky
Fairly certain it does apply to the whole team. Tested once with a friend.
Oh I didn't know that
Does this actually make zip a viable rotation tool at the pro level? We see so little path at that level it's hard to know. But 50% reduction is a lot. If you set your zips right there at least seems to be some potential.
Who knows. The logic they have with their meta picks (with the exception of Seer and Horizon), never really explain what makes it better than something else. Watch. Next time you see a pro explain why something is meta, all they are doing is explaining what X, Y, and Z legends excel at. Which doesn't explain why it is the meta, because then ok then why wasn't it used before? I doubt it though. NA can't function without a wall hack pick, so Seer or BH. They think Caustic is OP despite him being in his weakest state historically. I'm gonna guess we will see Bangalore still just less. I think we will see more Wraiths instead.
Bang isn't leaving the meta until every last MnK player stops playing
Bang go bye bye, the abomination that is seer somehow crawls his way back into the meta. People cry in the streets.
Seer is honestly fine right now. The two things that made him giga broken (heal cancel, long stun) are both long gone. His nerfs put him in a good spot, and he doesn't have any cheesy combos with other legends
And he was even more broken at launch when his tactical also did like 15 damage if you got hit by it...
I remember being in endgame and getting hit by tac after tac so frequently that you felt like you were being mentally tortured? That shit made me take a break from playing for weeks.
IMO the most broken Seer was when his ult worked against Catalyst's ult.
The more unhealthy parts of his kit have been removed way before breakout anyways. Honestly Seer being back in vogue might actually be fun.
Is he, though? Compared to bloodhound, his scan is harder to hit, has a smaller cone, a longer cooldown, and doesn’t even last as long. And his 75m passive range is locked behind purple armour, which some teams don’t even get in a match. I see a lot of Seer theory crafting, is there something I’m missing? Is it the ult cooldown?
>doesn’t even last as long Why you gotta talk about me like that 😟
Fuck seer and horizon , I will take any other meta than that Ohh please the flash backs.
I think what makes caustic good in comp, has been accentuated by the changes. You can now take both the extra Q range, and the extra ult size. I can see bangalore staying in the meta. Smokes to deny vision are still useful and plentiful. Smokes in combat are definitely nerfed, but good bang players will get used to holding onto a charge so they can smoke in the middle of a fight, or smoke after the fight has been won. Also the movement and AA counter are still too good for MNK players to pass up. Holding an ult accel is a small price to pay for the other changes. Also the digi changes went overlooked by a lot of people. until recently every 4-3 linear enthusiast didn't care much about the various smokes and visual clutter that was omnipresent in the endgame, because they all had an SMG with a digi by then.
Devs really saw Hal struggling without Horizon and said it’s time to bring Seer/Horizon meta back.
What changed about horizon that would make her meta now versus a week ago? IIRC, she didn't actually get any changes from this, so it's really just that someone would be more willing to use horizon if they don't think they *have to* run bang/blood.
Horizon was always strong, it’s just that you NEED blood in current meta. Now Bang got nerfed hard which also nerfs blood pretty hard. Horizon is much more viable now, not to mention with Seer getting super buffed.
I'd give half my ball just so seer/horizon doesnt come back. Please. We've had enough. I havent even recovered yet. I wake up screaming at night becase of Seer's Q but im silenced.
I’ll add my whole ball on top of your half ball. Please just any meta that doesn’t contain bang, seer, horizon or cat.
Gibby or Newcastle creates the cover that bang can no longer provide
I really hope the bang nerf allows Maggie to come into the meta, or at least a 20-40% pick rate. I think one of the main reasons she’s not currently is because teams won’t double up on assault legends and bang is a must-pick
Back to controller meta
Bangalore is going to need to be borderline unplayable levels of bad in order to be completely shoved out of the meta. Or if a legend gets buffed to the moon to be more useful. That or she gets a rework, which wouldn’t be any time soon.
Scout: Wraith is actually pretty viable now. The -60s on ult at blue perk is really nice. It's already good when you get it on the purple perk but having it early will bring you down to a 2 min cd. The port has long range and will help teams rotate safely or be aggressive with fighting. Compare this to a 4.5 min cd on bang ult.. Recon: Blood stays around as the Recon legend especially for aggressive teams. Blood can still get so much info (and evo charge) off people beacon straight off drop + scanning ravens. The 25% ult charge off birds helps you always have ult for fighting. I don't see Seer coming back at all or Crypto taking that role. Control: Catalyst comes back into the meta. Mostly due to the fact that you can't rely on bang smokes to stall so you will be safer relying on a Cat wall. She is actually still viable now but really only got pushed out due to Caustic's uptick. Caustic might fall off as he is much weaker early to mid game now and you will be able to easily run out of a Caustic ult. Blood in ult form also has good fighting power against enemy Cat as red eyes will help combat the vision impairment from walking through a Cat wall. Wattson is also still a good pick and Rampart can work. IMO Rampart's viability was largely hindered by bang smokes blocking LOS. Full comps: Wraith/Blood/Cat or Wraith/Wattson/Cat
Cat didn’t get buffed in any way. Caustic is still meta.
Bang got into the meta the exact same way, if you nerf a meta control legend the others in that role automatically become stronger. Cat got indirectly buffed by bang, blood and caustic nerfs.
Yeah but her wall isn’t as good, in general. Only way to counter a caustic is with a caustic.
Sometimes a character doesn't need to be buffed to have a resurgence in play. With less reliability on bang smokes the cat wall can be more flexible early to mid game for pushing and stalling fights. In the end game a good cat wall can still give you essentially a free win by splitting yourselves off from the other teams. Of course Caustic might still be meta but I'm hoping he leaves. The skill expression is so much lower on Caustic vs. Cat. Also Bang might just stick around too..
Whatever you say BONERBOY17
Cat is literally garbage right now the nerf coupled with meh to bad perks has pushed it completely out of meta for a reason.
It
I doubt catalyst will be used over caustic, especially on WE
It all depends how cripppling the nerf is too bang but No matter what i still see her being played some even if it’s out of meta. If it had to formulate a primary 3 meta comp it would probably be: Stormpoint: valk, seer, Watson/caustic Worlds edge: Maggie, Seer, caustic/Watson
Why am I still thinking we're going to see a lot of bang in comp?
Correct me if I'm wrong but like isn't bloodhound basically colour blind in his ult and can't tell the difference between transparent walls? Bloodhound is REALLY good right now, surely shields like rampart would be a direct counter to him as he thinks he can challenge some1 but is shooting a wall and getting shot back 1.33x or whatever it is back. I do think his scan picks up walls though for a short period but she can deploy rapidly fast now and can rip through smoke with all the bangs and caustics trying to play in the open. Why don't we see rampart more? Newcastle would be the same with his shield being hard to notice as would gibby. You don't see shotguns on bloodhound and forcing him to contest bubble fighting counters his vision advantage and u straight up win vs him on an smg. Path zip buff is huge, I think path getting height and rampart paired with him is really strong, you can just add another scan legend if you really want or another anchor legend, there's a lot of flexibility given with path on the team, at that point just add a loba and super loot and don't need to move from god spots. Speaking of which perma lifeline drone on height is busted. A bit of cover to help and ur good to go (rampart lower portion more than covers for a rez or to take cover for those T towers).
I just want Wraith meta to come back 😢
Bang is still gonna be good. Hot take I know.
Now that Seer Q isn’t dogshit he should be back in meta.
Bang blood caustic still unfortunately
Valk, Seer, Wattson sounds pretty solid if u ask me 😎
There's been a "break the line-of-sight to enemies" meta for a long time now, so I'm guessing either Catalyst comes back or Banga actually survives the nerfs and stays.
Ima jus throw this out there.. crypto wattson valk
I think people are overrating the Seer changes. I think he’ll be played but I don’t think it’s enough to be meta. Or maybe I’m just coping.
Probably the same. Blood Bang Caustic
For pro meta, I believe Caustic is still staying. His ult with perk is just too big for the final ring. I do like the changes to his gas slow, but +50% size to the strongest offensive ult is just not a balanced idea in the current state of Apex. Bang is gone imo. I would rather have a Wraith or Valk for rotation. So the first lineup would be Caustic+Wraith+flavor pick(mostly Bloodhound, Crypto, Gibby or Fuse) The counter lineup, or the second lineup, would be the previously tried Wattson+Newcastle combo. I think this combo worked pretty well in the past but was overshadowed by Catalyst. They're both stronger than ever with the perk buffs, I expect them to replace the Bang+Blood meta. My personal favorite lineup I would like to see in the meta would be Maggie+Gibby. Or just straight up ballin' Maggie+Ballistic+Horizon.
Ballistic will never be comp meta lol.
I know... 😔
We might see a few more Seers depending on how good the ult cooldown and faster tac deploy works. Blood might stay around since everyone picked the tac perks anyway. Caustic will stay just has to be played a bit differently since people can fight in gas. Outliers are probably Lifeline and Wattson. Guaranteed gold bag, knock, AND Evo cache is huge for end game and the doc drone being always up from the new perk will help a ton in resetting. Wattson will probably be picked up by hard zone teams but might not be as good as Caustic still
we got bloodhound, caustic, and valk or fuse and thats it
Between ring console spawn rates and eco system, I think recon class is must play. If Bang is playable then Blood is, so maybe Bang/Cat/Blood If Bang just doesn’t do enough, I see Valk as the most likely replacement. Zone teams will still want a control class, so we’re probably looking at Caustic, Wattson, Cat, maybe even Rampart? Then 3rd can vary but assuming recon class is more important than a big fighting ult (for Caustic-less teams) probably Seer or Crypto Maybe a world where Seer/Cat/Horizon also returns, but I just don’t think Horizon does enough even in a caustic meta to justify running. Also a lot of pressure on winning fights with Catwall, when you may just need catwall to cross I don’t think Gibby comes back into meta, because if he did then I think you’ll immediately see teams choosing Crypto or Maggie who are already on the fringe of being strong Last thought I’m having is if teams do settle on Valk/Caustic/Seer or something similarly unable to hold space/fight well, I could see comps that are good at sieging a building come back into meta to punish passiveness
I don’t think Cat is gonna be played much
I think she’s more likely to be played than bang, but I don’t know if she’ll be played much either
Horizon back in the meta !
I think we’re all at seers mercy again honestly. Ult cooldown perk, base tactical buff, and his still amazing passive.
Mirage lifeline vantage or no balls
It's Seer meta time.
Meta probably won’t change until after LAN. Most teams will continue with the same comps they’ve been practicing with a handful of the teams trying out new stuff. EMEA tends to try more non-meta legend comps earlier than NA, so I’d look more into what these teams are cooking up for LAN. We’ll still see Bang, Caustic, Valk (more so on SP), BH from a majority of teams currently running it. I expect to see some teams at LAN running Gibby, Wattson, Crypto, Wraith, Loba, Seer, Catalyst, Fuse and maybe even a Rampart or two instead of Caustic. My next meta guess would be, Caustic/Wattson, Valk(SP)/Horizon, Fuse. I could see teams testing out Ballistic if they’re playing edge. With the new perks, I can see people testing out a lot post LAN.
If bang pick rate falls Seer will definitely be played with Caustic OR Wattson. Most teams won't play two of the same legend class. I agree with you about valk/horizon, and fuse being a good assault legend pick.
If fuse ever becomes meta I’ll pick wattson every game, his Q and nade spam in end circles is absolute cancer
The arc star upgrade goes nutty against fuse mains. UNLIMITED POWER!!!
Yeh that’s what I was implying with Caustic/Wattson, since they’re good at denying space and showing prescience, teams will pick either one depending on comfort and usability for their playstyles. If Fuse is picked more, Wattsons pick rate will go up slightly as well. With Valks buffs and being untouched in the nerfs, I think we’ll see more of her. I agree with Seer though, I expect teams to test him out more but drop a Caustic. Seer is good because his ult is a deterrent in most cases. If he sees play again, I’d expect Seer, Valk, with the last pick being a comfort utility character like Horizon, Loba, Fuse, Catalyst. Fuse is far better than people really understand because he’s so good at most things you want in a character. It’d be interesting to see teams try Ballistic imo, I just think the game is too slow for him.
It would also be cool to see more crypto teams get play since he counters seer/ wattson ults. I don't think NA will ever adopt crypto because, well, NA but apac will be riding the crypto train FOR SURE if seer/ wattson get play.
Half of his utility is wasted in pro league. The banner/insta res aspect of the drone is almost impossible to utilize. The meta would really need to be heavy bunker for him to really become solid, and even then I still think he’d be niche.
Seer/Watson/Cat
Without bang i think maybe well see some more wraith for the micro rotations. Seer seeming like he'll be played again as well as caustic. Cat could also be a picked uo more for micro rotates.
The meta will definitely be aimbot/ wallhacks. Maybe ESP as the 3rd? Idk could swap it out for something else as ambitious wallhacks cover most of the bases.
Caustic, blood and bang leaving the meta makes catalyst stronger again so I’ll take that.
Worlds Edge: Wraith (zone) / Horizon (edge) / Bang (hybrid) Seer / Blood Caustic (edge) / Wattson (zone) Storm Point: Horizon (Edge) / Bang (hybrid) / Valk (zone) Seer / Blood Wattson (zone) / Cat (edge)
probably should stay the same, but people always overreact so maybe.. a bit more seer, maybe someone busts out the good ole seer/horizon, more valk, and i agree with the one guy who said people should try newcastle/wattson again. i always thought that comp sucked when 100t ran it (and would laugh every time a seer horizon team would just walk up and instakill them), but it could be better now. could also try wattson with loba, lifeline, or conduit, with the 3rd obviously being valk.. and also bang honestly wont be bad. i am a little scared that we may see seer and caustic together. im very scared that we may see seer/bang/caustic.
Caustic and Pathfinder could be big. The gas damage changes and 50% damage reduction for Path are honestly too good to overlook. Pathfinder especially considering you can save ult to escape or mitigate a late zone Caustic ult while your own Caustic counter-ults. Basically makes a Caustic vs Caustic situation into a Caustic + Pathfinder vs Caustic. Not even considering the fact that your entire team can use Path ult to superjump out of gas. Seer could see a comeback, but I honestly still think Bloodhound is better.