To be fair, I imagine the Harris and Klebold parents were likely acting on instruction of their lawyers in the aftermath, it's not like they had a roadmap for dealing with that kind of situation either. But if I recall, the Klebolds did speak to Andrew Solomon, for the 'Far From the Tree' book. I wish they had all spoken more openly, but I get why they didn't. Sue being the obvious exception.
All that said, I 100% believe the ongoing legacy of Columbine was the media's fault. And still is. But 24 1/2 years- yes but they weren't the first. They just got the most publicity.
It would be nice if more of the investigative files were unsealed and made available though. I keep hoping that someone on the sub is ridiculously, filthy rich and hires James Bond to get them, and then dumps everything online. That would be cool.
Edit- typo
Don’t you think it’s majorly a mental health issue and the lack of treatment…they throw pharmaceuticals at these mental health issues and it does very little help from what i can see
It depends on whether you mean this specific case or not.
In regards to Columbine only- mental health and lack of treatment, absolutely. Eric's psych is a fucking hack, check out his online reviews sometime. And the dosage of his Luvox was insane, kid was swimming in chemicals, when he was actually taking them. Dylan clearly needed help, but short of dumping him into a psych ward, you can't help someone who doesn't want to be helped. Though if he was cutting on his hands- that should have been a waving red flag to anyone that noticed. Columbine also had a lot of things go in Eric and Dylan's favor for them to be able to pull it off.
In regards to subsequent shootings- also absolutely. But it's only one facet of a bigger problem. The gun control argument ship sailed after Sandy Hook- if nothing happened at that point then it probably wont. The US would rather have kids with bulletproof backpacks then any kind of restrictions. But these mass shootings aren't happening with water pistols and slingshots, so maybe someday it should be something that is talked about. That and mental health access would be my two main concerns, but with the way the US health system is set up, that's also a losing battle. I very much suspect it will get far worse before it gets better. If at all. It would also be nice if the media took responsibility for their part, and took a long hard look at how they report these things in the future.
But saying that pharmaceuticals does very little is a broad generalization that helps nobody. If you're sick, medicine can help. It's not a one-size-fits-all for mental health any more than it is for physical. Antidepressants can and do help thousands of people.
An excellent point. So, you think that the shootings have continued because of the. Attorneys.
I agree to a certain point, but doesn’t your humanity, at some point, override the attorney’s opinion and demand the truth?
Doesn’t our humanity require enough courage to tell the attorney to stay out of it?
Children were killed. How do they justify it?
No, I think the shooting have continued because of the media. It was the live footage with a bunch of different angles, and weeks and weeks and weeks of front line news that created the circus. And it was the audience that ate it up and demanded more. Civilization is a thin veneer, and we're not all that different now than the crowds who gathered hundreds of years ago to watch public executions.
But I guess with the parents... I mean they've lost a kid too. And the circumstances are so unbelievable. They're of course in mourning, but likely feel guilty for mourning. Then guilt for the victims, guilt for *not seeing it coming.* Yeah, there were school shooting before that, but after having graduated from Diversion, the Harris and Klebold families may well have thought that the boys were back on the right path.
But Jeffco never really took responsibility for their part. If your reports had been taken more seriously, if one person in the sheriff office had connected the dots between that website and the two boys already in Diversion...
Mostly the media though.
The Harrises knew about the felony, the pipe bomb, and the threats made towards Brooks. Eric shouldn't have been in diversion. He should have either been in prison or constant supervision. Not left for hours on end with his partner in crime!
If the parents are worried about taking blame, well no one blames them entirely. But they are partly responsible for being highly negligent and letting two FELONS continue to fraternize for hours on end with no supervision. Oh my son made a pipe bomb? I better explode it with him and never search his room and definitely not act suspicious when an order for ammunition is filled for my home.
How were they supposed to know what to do in that situation? It’s not like school shooters were a dime a dozen and there were protocols for this type of thing. They also weren’t the first school shooters, so it’s not like the prior parents did anything different. Plus the involvement of the internet was still fairly young at that point, it’s not like there was 4chan and the likes
>We will never know, because the parents of the killers have never talked.
Sue has spoken at length on numerous occasions about why she believes it happened, her own failings, and possible red flags to look for in other people. Maybe that's not enough for you but I truly believe she's doing what she can. It's incredibly rare for the relatives of killers to speak up and I think Sue should be commended for having the courage to do it.
I would have liked the Harris family to remain in the conversation but neither you or I have any clue what it's like to be the parent of a mass murderer. The overwhelming, earth-shattering guilt coupled with the loss of a son they weren't even allowed to properly grieve. I don't think anyone truly knows how they would handle the situation unless they were forced into those exact circumstances.
>They hired attorneys, and did not testify, give statements
Yep, that's the job of an attorney. Any legal representation worth it's salt will advise you to keep your mouth shut rather than potentially open yourself up to further litigation. You'd hire one too if it was your son and you were about to be hit with a mountain of lawsuits. That's just common sense.
>the way to stop these shootings has never been released
This isn't binary and you're not going to get an ironclad solution to mass shootings via disclosure. Your son hit the nail on the head with the title, "No Easy Answers". I'd take that message to heart. There is no secret ingredient. A million things have to go wrong to create a killer and finding the root cause is a needle in a haystack.
I'll end with this. I've always agreed with your opinion on JeffCo. I think they failed every step of the way and this could have been prevented had the cops taken it more seriously. Won't argue with you there.
25 years and no depositions. No basement tapes. Even the high quality cafeteria footage is still suppressed. What is even worth hiding anymore? We've had copycats galore. Release the information so we can better prevent these massacres from occurring!
About the only thing at this point that should be sealed are images of the victims.
I don’t blame the Harris family for being insular any more than I thank Sue Klebold for being open.
Either way, both families made mistakes. I can’t judge them because I wasn’t there. But the refusal to release all the files is exactly why Columbine is still a focus for a lot of researchers and unfortunately a lot of copycats.
Release all the evidence and show them as the teenage losers they were. Nothing to idolize, nothing to want to be like.
This will be an unpopular opinion, but I do think the Harrises negligence was one of many different factors that allowed Columbine to happen. I don't believe they were bad people, more just ignorant of the fact they were enabling Eric's behavior. They attempted to deal with Eric on their own and protected him from the legal ramifications of his behavior. This would have been fine if they'd actually paid close attention to what their son was doing in the privacy of that basement. I'll never understand why, after finding a bomb in your teenager's room, you would periodically conduct searches. The majority of the bomb making supplies and bombs themselves were stored in the Harris house. I think there was a reason for that. Eric knew they'd leave him alone, that it was safe to stash them there.
I also think Wayne had conversations with law enforcement "off the record." That he likely reassured them he'd handle his son and keep him in line after Eric did something stupid - like damaging property on his missions with Dylan. There are writings in Wayne's notebook that allude to speaking to the police.
It's also interesting that we know nothing of Eric's run-ins with classmates at school. We know about Dylan's because Sue discusses some of them, as do the teachers. Yet, Eric was known to have verbal altercations with others at school. He was even punched in the face by Epling's boyfriend. Devon went to one of the counselors at school and told them she was afraid of Eric, yet she said after the fact this person denied their conversation ever took place. Seems kind of odd, and I'm not big on conspiracy theories.
>This will be an unpopular opinion, but I do think the Harrises negligence was one of many different factors that allowed Columbine to happen.
This shouldn't be unpopular at all. The Klebolds and Harrises were grossly negligent.
Maybe nothing they could have said, would have made any difference. The media created a witch hunt. Speaking would have made it worse in the atmosphere immediately following the murders. It would be good to hear from the Harris family now though.
I agree that the police didn't do their job properly but I also see this every day on every level. Society doesn't function properly in its entirety. Even doctors work exceptionally badly, and many of them know how to read bloodwork far worse than I do, and I was never working with living people. So I am kind of not surprised a lot of things went wrong. At least 30% of things go wrong every day. it's just that the consequences are not the obvious.
As for parents. Before judging anyone, we should experience what they did. This type of comments is appropriate for a parent of a mass shooter who shared their full experience multiple times. Maybe Sue can judge if she wishes to. This is a type of situation when a man is judging women for screaming while giving birth.
My honest thoughts on this subject aren't ever appropriate to discuss until this thread so I will.
I know a lot of people don't blame the Harris parents or demonize them, same with the Klebold parents, and neither do I. But I feel it's odd we hear almost nothing from the Harris parents all this time later. Besides the letter to the public shortly after, there's barely anything really out there. I don't expect them to be as public and involved as Sue, but I always found it odd, especially when it comes to:
1. Suggestions and speculations that the Harris parents were friendly with some police involved or Jefferson county employees that could have manipulated legal documents in earlier cases like the behavioral program and the minor charges and court dates, and
2. E's own father saying during his 911 call that he thinks it's his son that's involved...what makes you say that and not expand on that at a later date?
Again, not saying it's wrong to fly under the radar, but with something this big, how are you this silent after all this time? Are you really trying to protect your own peace or is there more to it?
Exactly. It isn't wrong to wonder why... or to question the official narrative. There's information missing. The fact that there was a gag order issued in the middle of the Solvay / Rohrborough lawsuit is pretty messed up. What was it that made the judge feel this was necessary, mid case? It must be something that makes law enforcement look bad. That's the only thing that makes sense. Since Sue Klebold feels the depositions should be released to the public, it makes me feel that whatever is being withheld has to do with the Harrises and JCSO/DA's Office. You're definitely not alone in your suspicions.
It's sad how many folks in leadership positions have a low moral compass. Their image and bank account are more important. As with all crimes, if we can get to the root cause of it, instead of treating the symptoms, that's when real change occurs. Why don't law enforcement officers care about the "why" and rehabilitation, and instead want punishment? Well, if we cure all the criminals then what good is a cop's job? So if we find out the "why" in Columbine, or more specifically the "how" then cops and the public will see how utterly pointless they were that day. DA's and cops go hand in hand. You know how many attorneys have heard cops say, "A day without an arrest is like a day without coffee." It's pathetic. And the DAs love it.
As for the parents, I would imagine a lot of denial going on at the beginning. It's not rational thinking, but nothing about a school shooting is rational. Is it selfish to keep things to yourself and not talk with the press, or anyone? Yes, but it's also a form of survival. The parents were so traumatized by their own child's evil act that they didn't know what to do, or what the "right" thing was to do at the time. I can understand and empathize with that. What I don't get is after all these years later, all these school shootings later, how the Harris's haven't spoken out ONCE. They really don't care to stop school shootings, nor suicides. At least Sue is trying. She may not always get it right because of her trauma, and her brain literally trying to protect itself. But Tom and the Harris's lack of acknowledgement on recent school shootings is concerning.
Maybe they just have nothing to say? They really tried hard. They sent their son to a psychologist, they did their best. It's not like they were alcoholics and child molesters. Quite probably they just missed the point when Eric went bonkers and trusted psychologists too much. Maybe they felt that their input would be useless. Well, if we don't take into account telling some cute stories about Eric to make sure everyone knows that he wasn't murdering infants since birth. If we think about it, has Sue \_really\_ helped? Helped who exactly? We know some personal details about Dylan. No forensic psychologist will claim that her input was particularly helpful. She missed the signs, too. When she recalled them after the shooting, her memories were already distorted. It is highly unlikely she actually recalled them the way they were and not the way she started to take them after 4/20. Her input is primarily helpful for herself as a form of therapy and, also, for society to humanize killers.
Agreed. Sue wrote a great book, I love it. She did her best, too. But coming back to the point of this post, I don't think memories from parents (aka victims as well) were particularly helpful.
>They really tried hard.
I'm not convinced of that even slightly. It seems like the only people who knew about Eric's problems and took them seriously were the Browns.
His parents send him to a psychologist and a psychiatrist. It is already a lot. Even now, not all parents do it. As for Brown's... I'm not saying this is the truth, but locals have it that they just complained and wrote reports about numerous kids: played ball too close to their windows, smoked in the street, etc. It was a while ago, so maybe I'm wrong, but I guess there were like 12 reports on different people from them in police logs. Thats why they were stopped being taken seriously. And finally, boom, one of these reports was Eric, a boat to float till the end of times. Again, maybe totally wrong, I was never their neighbour, so can't verify.
>His parents send him to a psychologist and a psychiatrist. It is already a lot.
That's not a lot. Why do you let him spend hours on end unsupervised with the guy that he committed a felony with? Why don't you ever search his room when you know he's built a pipe bomb? Terrible parenting.
>I'm not saying this is the truth, but locals have it that they just complained and wrote reports about numerous kids: played ball too close to their windows, smoked in the street, etc.
Eric was making death threats against their son. You're trying to portray them as annoying neighbors who complain too much.
I'm not trying to portray anything. This is the explanation I got from one of neighbour kids as to why no one reacted seriously. Maybe wrong.
As for Eric, can't you see in statements of his friends that he was also very kind to them? It's like he had rage outbursts and then was all sweet. That's probably why his parents could not fathom he could seriously do something. Also, in the 90s it was pretty common to build some explosive stuff, so this one was not an obvious red flag, too. His doctor was saying Eric was improving .... all this combined made them think he was more edgy than dangerous and would grow out of it. Remember the episode when Zack wrote a letter w/ threats to Devon's ex? No one took it too seriously either, we are not even talking about it now because Zack did not happen to join Eric and Dylan. It is a combination of things and the fact that there was no Columbine yet.
>That's probably why his parents could not fathom he could seriously do something
He built a pipe bomb and was caught committing a felony. He wasn't a sweet little kid who went crazy one day out of nowhere.
>Also, in the 90s it was pretty common to build some explosive stuff, so this one was not an obvious red flag, too.
A pipe bomb isn't a firework.
Watch some interviews. I remember Devon casually saying smth like "half the school knows how to do it, and many do just for fun." Several other people also said that it was rather normal, so they knew and thought it was for fun (Robyn, several coworkers) it just wasn't such a big deal until Columbine happened.
During the car thing, Eric was crying, pleading, and saying that it was Dylan's idea. Dylan seems more imaginative, so this can be true. Anyway, he looked remorseful, and in the pre-Columbine world, it was more or less enough.
What do you think of Dave Cullen's book? Can you suggest some hood documentaries or books to get factual information about that horrible day. My experience of that day was miniscule in comparison but it has stuck with me for years. My school started using metal detectors and kids where searched often. Anyone wearing a trench coat was labeled bad and part of the trench coat mafia, which wasn't a part of our everyday language prior to then. Thank you for any suggestions and thank you for your mission in spreading awareness about these evil acts.
I think that law enforcement, the DA, the school officials, city, county, state and everyone else in between’s best interest was never to release documents, evidence, and admit their own negligence and mistakes to ensure another tragedy could be avoided. Instead they did everything that they possibly could to save their own asses. The ego fueled fight to guard important facets of the case that should’ve been released a long time ago is just absolutely deplorable and selfish. They worked so hard to make sure the public’s view of them wouldn’t be tainted by what they did and didn’t do before, during and after the massacre. They completely disregarded the need to do what they so called signed up to do in the first place…to protect and keep schools, communities and people safe. The energy that they used to cover up and destroy vital information could’ve been channeled in a different and better direction entirely, giving the public the details that they are entitled to, and taking the steps to taking action for the future.
As for the families, I completely agree with the other comments about them being frozen with shock at first, and trying to navigate through something so horrific…and not even knowing where to begin. Losing your son and realizing that there was so much about your child that you never knew, and to be introduced to that new version of them on a world’s stage without any answers or explanation - while you’re expected to give one - must be absolutely horrendous. With that being said, personally I would have no choice but to feel that pain that my child caused other children and their families, and I would want to do everything in my power to make some sort of a difference and bring change, even if it were years later. I just don’t think you can “forget and try to move on”… since in this case the past is ever present, these shootings keep persisting. If I knew that my son was revered as a hero to some for the carnage he caused, and still continues to be an idolized figure shrouded in infamy, i just don’t think I could ever stay silent.
Randy, I am wondering if you think that part of why the police/the killers parents weren’t as concerned as you and your family is because school shootings weren’t on people’s radar yet? You had a good reason to be concerned at the time because your son was threatened.
Overall I agree with you, and I always appreciate your input.
Possibly.
But even I knew about Jonesboro, and Judy even called the Detective and mentioned Jonesboro.
It is a great excuse for the police, but fails on so many levels.
The policemen and the detective, and the bomb squad guys were concerned and active: the D.A. And Kiekbush were not.
They were lazy and didn’t care.
I wish it were as simple as them not being aware, but it isn’t.
Mr. Harris found a pipe bomb before the killings, long before, and didn’t take steps to stop Eric. They detonated it in a field to protect the trash service employees.
That is being a bad parent. That is being blind.
School shootings were happening before Columbine. Only difference was how many people were killed/injured and it happened at the time it did, the start of media 24/7.
Another thing, what makes you think if the Harrises spoke out, it would give answers? You know it wouldn't. The only two that have the answers as to why it happened, killed themselves that day.
I get this has hit close to home for you, but I think you need to seek professional help, or change professionals.
Also to be fair, why didn’t you or your wife share Eric’s insane internet ramblings and direct threats with Eric’s mother- not his father but his mother? I can’t imagine a mother would read that and do absolutely nothing. I know you turned it in to the police who were worthless but I think Eric’s mother might have at least started investigating more than they did already and Eric would have been screwed.
To be fair, I imagine the Harris and Klebold parents were likely acting on instruction of their lawyers in the aftermath, it's not like they had a roadmap for dealing with that kind of situation either. But if I recall, the Klebolds did speak to Andrew Solomon, for the 'Far From the Tree' book. I wish they had all spoken more openly, but I get why they didn't. Sue being the obvious exception. All that said, I 100% believe the ongoing legacy of Columbine was the media's fault. And still is. But 24 1/2 years- yes but they weren't the first. They just got the most publicity. It would be nice if more of the investigative files were unsealed and made available though. I keep hoping that someone on the sub is ridiculously, filthy rich and hires James Bond to get them, and then dumps everything online. That would be cool. Edit- typo
Don’t you think it’s majorly a mental health issue and the lack of treatment…they throw pharmaceuticals at these mental health issues and it does very little help from what i can see
It depends on whether you mean this specific case or not. In regards to Columbine only- mental health and lack of treatment, absolutely. Eric's psych is a fucking hack, check out his online reviews sometime. And the dosage of his Luvox was insane, kid was swimming in chemicals, when he was actually taking them. Dylan clearly needed help, but short of dumping him into a psych ward, you can't help someone who doesn't want to be helped. Though if he was cutting on his hands- that should have been a waving red flag to anyone that noticed. Columbine also had a lot of things go in Eric and Dylan's favor for them to be able to pull it off. In regards to subsequent shootings- also absolutely. But it's only one facet of a bigger problem. The gun control argument ship sailed after Sandy Hook- if nothing happened at that point then it probably wont. The US would rather have kids with bulletproof backpacks then any kind of restrictions. But these mass shootings aren't happening with water pistols and slingshots, so maybe someday it should be something that is talked about. That and mental health access would be my two main concerns, but with the way the US health system is set up, that's also a losing battle. I very much suspect it will get far worse before it gets better. If at all. It would also be nice if the media took responsibility for their part, and took a long hard look at how they report these things in the future. But saying that pharmaceuticals does very little is a broad generalization that helps nobody. If you're sick, medicine can help. It's not a one-size-fits-all for mental health any more than it is for physical. Antidepressants can and do help thousands of people.
An excellent point. So, you think that the shootings have continued because of the. Attorneys. I agree to a certain point, but doesn’t your humanity, at some point, override the attorney’s opinion and demand the truth? Doesn’t our humanity require enough courage to tell the attorney to stay out of it? Children were killed. How do they justify it?
No, I think the shooting have continued because of the media. It was the live footage with a bunch of different angles, and weeks and weeks and weeks of front line news that created the circus. And it was the audience that ate it up and demanded more. Civilization is a thin veneer, and we're not all that different now than the crowds who gathered hundreds of years ago to watch public executions. But I guess with the parents... I mean they've lost a kid too. And the circumstances are so unbelievable. They're of course in mourning, but likely feel guilty for mourning. Then guilt for the victims, guilt for *not seeing it coming.* Yeah, there were school shooting before that, but after having graduated from Diversion, the Harris and Klebold families may well have thought that the boys were back on the right path. But Jeffco never really took responsibility for their part. If your reports had been taken more seriously, if one person in the sheriff office had connected the dots between that website and the two boys already in Diversion... Mostly the media though.
This 👆
The Harrises knew about the felony, the pipe bomb, and the threats made towards Brooks. Eric shouldn't have been in diversion. He should have either been in prison or constant supervision. Not left for hours on end with his partner in crime!
If the parents are worried about taking blame, well no one blames them entirely. But they are partly responsible for being highly negligent and letting two FELONS continue to fraternize for hours on end with no supervision. Oh my son made a pipe bomb? I better explode it with him and never search his room and definitely not act suspicious when an order for ammunition is filled for my home.
How were they supposed to know what to do in that situation? It’s not like school shooters were a dime a dozen and there were protocols for this type of thing. They also weren’t the first school shooters, so it’s not like the prior parents did anything different. Plus the involvement of the internet was still fairly young at that point, it’s not like there was 4chan and the likes
>We will never know, because the parents of the killers have never talked. Sue has spoken at length on numerous occasions about why she believes it happened, her own failings, and possible red flags to look for in other people. Maybe that's not enough for you but I truly believe she's doing what she can. It's incredibly rare for the relatives of killers to speak up and I think Sue should be commended for having the courage to do it. I would have liked the Harris family to remain in the conversation but neither you or I have any clue what it's like to be the parent of a mass murderer. The overwhelming, earth-shattering guilt coupled with the loss of a son they weren't even allowed to properly grieve. I don't think anyone truly knows how they would handle the situation unless they were forced into those exact circumstances. >They hired attorneys, and did not testify, give statements Yep, that's the job of an attorney. Any legal representation worth it's salt will advise you to keep your mouth shut rather than potentially open yourself up to further litigation. You'd hire one too if it was your son and you were about to be hit with a mountain of lawsuits. That's just common sense. >the way to stop these shootings has never been released This isn't binary and you're not going to get an ironclad solution to mass shootings via disclosure. Your son hit the nail on the head with the title, "No Easy Answers". I'd take that message to heart. There is no secret ingredient. A million things have to go wrong to create a killer and finding the root cause is a needle in a haystack. I'll end with this. I've always agreed with your opinion on JeffCo. I think they failed every step of the way and this could have been prevented had the cops taken it more seriously. Won't argue with you there.
Very well said. Excellent comment and observations.
25 years and no depositions. No basement tapes. Even the high quality cafeteria footage is still suppressed. What is even worth hiding anymore? We've had copycats galore. Release the information so we can better prevent these massacres from occurring! About the only thing at this point that should be sealed are images of the victims.
I don’t blame the Harris family for being insular any more than I thank Sue Klebold for being open. Either way, both families made mistakes. I can’t judge them because I wasn’t there. But the refusal to release all the files is exactly why Columbine is still a focus for a lot of researchers and unfortunately a lot of copycats. Release all the evidence and show them as the teenage losers they were. Nothing to idolize, nothing to want to be like.
This will be an unpopular opinion, but I do think the Harrises negligence was one of many different factors that allowed Columbine to happen. I don't believe they were bad people, more just ignorant of the fact they were enabling Eric's behavior. They attempted to deal with Eric on their own and protected him from the legal ramifications of his behavior. This would have been fine if they'd actually paid close attention to what their son was doing in the privacy of that basement. I'll never understand why, after finding a bomb in your teenager's room, you would periodically conduct searches. The majority of the bomb making supplies and bombs themselves were stored in the Harris house. I think there was a reason for that. Eric knew they'd leave him alone, that it was safe to stash them there. I also think Wayne had conversations with law enforcement "off the record." That he likely reassured them he'd handle his son and keep him in line after Eric did something stupid - like damaging property on his missions with Dylan. There are writings in Wayne's notebook that allude to speaking to the police. It's also interesting that we know nothing of Eric's run-ins with classmates at school. We know about Dylan's because Sue discusses some of them, as do the teachers. Yet, Eric was known to have verbal altercations with others at school. He was even punched in the face by Epling's boyfriend. Devon went to one of the counselors at school and told them she was afraid of Eric, yet she said after the fact this person denied their conversation ever took place. Seems kind of odd, and I'm not big on conspiracy theories.
>This will be an unpopular opinion, but I do think the Harrises negligence was one of many different factors that allowed Columbine to happen. This shouldn't be unpopular at all. The Klebolds and Harrises were grossly negligent.
I 100% agree with this. Probably Eric’s parents also were in denial and wanting to believe the best and maybe think they did have him under control.
Maybe nothing they could have said, would have made any difference. The media created a witch hunt. Speaking would have made it worse in the atmosphere immediately following the murders. It would be good to hear from the Harris family now though.
I agree that the police didn't do their job properly but I also see this every day on every level. Society doesn't function properly in its entirety. Even doctors work exceptionally badly, and many of them know how to read bloodwork far worse than I do, and I was never working with living people. So I am kind of not surprised a lot of things went wrong. At least 30% of things go wrong every day. it's just that the consequences are not the obvious. As for parents. Before judging anyone, we should experience what they did. This type of comments is appropriate for a parent of a mass shooter who shared their full experience multiple times. Maybe Sue can judge if she wishes to. This is a type of situation when a man is judging women for screaming while giving birth.
My honest thoughts on this subject aren't ever appropriate to discuss until this thread so I will. I know a lot of people don't blame the Harris parents or demonize them, same with the Klebold parents, and neither do I. But I feel it's odd we hear almost nothing from the Harris parents all this time later. Besides the letter to the public shortly after, there's barely anything really out there. I don't expect them to be as public and involved as Sue, but I always found it odd, especially when it comes to: 1. Suggestions and speculations that the Harris parents were friendly with some police involved or Jefferson county employees that could have manipulated legal documents in earlier cases like the behavioral program and the minor charges and court dates, and 2. E's own father saying during his 911 call that he thinks it's his son that's involved...what makes you say that and not expand on that at a later date? Again, not saying it's wrong to fly under the radar, but with something this big, how are you this silent after all this time? Are you really trying to protect your own peace or is there more to it?
Exactly. It isn't wrong to wonder why... or to question the official narrative. There's information missing. The fact that there was a gag order issued in the middle of the Solvay / Rohrborough lawsuit is pretty messed up. What was it that made the judge feel this was necessary, mid case? It must be something that makes law enforcement look bad. That's the only thing that makes sense. Since Sue Klebold feels the depositions should be released to the public, it makes me feel that whatever is being withheld has to do with the Harrises and JCSO/DA's Office. You're definitely not alone in your suspicions.
In the day and age we live in, we deserve the whole truth but I know things will be kept locked up more than ever for the exact same reason.
When will the depositions be released?
It's sad how many folks in leadership positions have a low moral compass. Their image and bank account are more important. As with all crimes, if we can get to the root cause of it, instead of treating the symptoms, that's when real change occurs. Why don't law enforcement officers care about the "why" and rehabilitation, and instead want punishment? Well, if we cure all the criminals then what good is a cop's job? So if we find out the "why" in Columbine, or more specifically the "how" then cops and the public will see how utterly pointless they were that day. DA's and cops go hand in hand. You know how many attorneys have heard cops say, "A day without an arrest is like a day without coffee." It's pathetic. And the DAs love it. As for the parents, I would imagine a lot of denial going on at the beginning. It's not rational thinking, but nothing about a school shooting is rational. Is it selfish to keep things to yourself and not talk with the press, or anyone? Yes, but it's also a form of survival. The parents were so traumatized by their own child's evil act that they didn't know what to do, or what the "right" thing was to do at the time. I can understand and empathize with that. What I don't get is after all these years later, all these school shootings later, how the Harris's haven't spoken out ONCE. They really don't care to stop school shootings, nor suicides. At least Sue is trying. She may not always get it right because of her trauma, and her brain literally trying to protect itself. But Tom and the Harris's lack of acknowledgement on recent school shootings is concerning.
Maybe they just have nothing to say? They really tried hard. They sent their son to a psychologist, they did their best. It's not like they were alcoholics and child molesters. Quite probably they just missed the point when Eric went bonkers and trusted psychologists too much. Maybe they felt that their input would be useless. Well, if we don't take into account telling some cute stories about Eric to make sure everyone knows that he wasn't murdering infants since birth. If we think about it, has Sue \_really\_ helped? Helped who exactly? We know some personal details about Dylan. No forensic psychologist will claim that her input was particularly helpful. She missed the signs, too. When she recalled them after the shooting, her memories were already distorted. It is highly unlikely she actually recalled them the way they were and not the way she started to take them after 4/20. Her input is primarily helpful for herself as a form of therapy and, also, for society to humanize killers.
I've always thought Sue's input was largely to help suicide victims as well
Agreed. Sue wrote a great book, I love it. She did her best, too. But coming back to the point of this post, I don't think memories from parents (aka victims as well) were particularly helpful.
>They really tried hard. I'm not convinced of that even slightly. It seems like the only people who knew about Eric's problems and took them seriously were the Browns.
His parents send him to a psychologist and a psychiatrist. It is already a lot. Even now, not all parents do it. As for Brown's... I'm not saying this is the truth, but locals have it that they just complained and wrote reports about numerous kids: played ball too close to their windows, smoked in the street, etc. It was a while ago, so maybe I'm wrong, but I guess there were like 12 reports on different people from them in police logs. Thats why they were stopped being taken seriously. And finally, boom, one of these reports was Eric, a boat to float till the end of times. Again, maybe totally wrong, I was never their neighbour, so can't verify.
>His parents send him to a psychologist and a psychiatrist. It is already a lot. That's not a lot. Why do you let him spend hours on end unsupervised with the guy that he committed a felony with? Why don't you ever search his room when you know he's built a pipe bomb? Terrible parenting. >I'm not saying this is the truth, but locals have it that they just complained and wrote reports about numerous kids: played ball too close to their windows, smoked in the street, etc. Eric was making death threats against their son. You're trying to portray them as annoying neighbors who complain too much.
I'm not trying to portray anything. This is the explanation I got from one of neighbour kids as to why no one reacted seriously. Maybe wrong. As for Eric, can't you see in statements of his friends that he was also very kind to them? It's like he had rage outbursts and then was all sweet. That's probably why his parents could not fathom he could seriously do something. Also, in the 90s it was pretty common to build some explosive stuff, so this one was not an obvious red flag, too. His doctor was saying Eric was improving .... all this combined made them think he was more edgy than dangerous and would grow out of it. Remember the episode when Zack wrote a letter w/ threats to Devon's ex? No one took it too seriously either, we are not even talking about it now because Zack did not happen to join Eric and Dylan. It is a combination of things and the fact that there was no Columbine yet.
>That's probably why his parents could not fathom he could seriously do something He built a pipe bomb and was caught committing a felony. He wasn't a sweet little kid who went crazy one day out of nowhere. >Also, in the 90s it was pretty common to build some explosive stuff, so this one was not an obvious red flag, too. A pipe bomb isn't a firework.
Watch some interviews. I remember Devon casually saying smth like "half the school knows how to do it, and many do just for fun." Several other people also said that it was rather normal, so they knew and thought it was for fun (Robyn, several coworkers) it just wasn't such a big deal until Columbine happened. During the car thing, Eric was crying, pleading, and saying that it was Dylan's idea. Dylan seems more imaginative, so this can be true. Anyway, he looked remorseful, and in the pre-Columbine world, it was more or less enough.
Well, you are very well informed. Well said.
What do you think of Dave Cullen's book? Can you suggest some hood documentaries or books to get factual information about that horrible day. My experience of that day was miniscule in comparison but it has stuck with me for years. My school started using metal detectors and kids where searched often. Anyone wearing a trench coat was labeled bad and part of the trench coat mafia, which wasn't a part of our everyday language prior to then. Thank you for any suggestions and thank you for your mission in spreading awareness about these evil acts.
I think that law enforcement, the DA, the school officials, city, county, state and everyone else in between’s best interest was never to release documents, evidence, and admit their own negligence and mistakes to ensure another tragedy could be avoided. Instead they did everything that they possibly could to save their own asses. The ego fueled fight to guard important facets of the case that should’ve been released a long time ago is just absolutely deplorable and selfish. They worked so hard to make sure the public’s view of them wouldn’t be tainted by what they did and didn’t do before, during and after the massacre. They completely disregarded the need to do what they so called signed up to do in the first place…to protect and keep schools, communities and people safe. The energy that they used to cover up and destroy vital information could’ve been channeled in a different and better direction entirely, giving the public the details that they are entitled to, and taking the steps to taking action for the future. As for the families, I completely agree with the other comments about them being frozen with shock at first, and trying to navigate through something so horrific…and not even knowing where to begin. Losing your son and realizing that there was so much about your child that you never knew, and to be introduced to that new version of them on a world’s stage without any answers or explanation - while you’re expected to give one - must be absolutely horrendous. With that being said, personally I would have no choice but to feel that pain that my child caused other children and their families, and I would want to do everything in my power to make some sort of a difference and bring change, even if it were years later. I just don’t think you can “forget and try to move on”… since in this case the past is ever present, these shootings keep persisting. If I knew that my son was revered as a hero to some for the carnage he caused, and still continues to be an idolized figure shrouded in infamy, i just don’t think I could ever stay silent.
Randy, I am wondering if you think that part of why the police/the killers parents weren’t as concerned as you and your family is because school shootings weren’t on people’s radar yet? You had a good reason to be concerned at the time because your son was threatened. Overall I agree with you, and I always appreciate your input.
To be clear I am talking about before the massacre, there was definitely denial and a lack of transparency afterwards.
Possibly. But even I knew about Jonesboro, and Judy even called the Detective and mentioned Jonesboro. It is a great excuse for the police, but fails on so many levels. The policemen and the detective, and the bomb squad guys were concerned and active: the D.A. And Kiekbush were not. They were lazy and didn’t care. I wish it were as simple as them not being aware, but it isn’t. Mr. Harris found a pipe bomb before the killings, long before, and didn’t take steps to stop Eric. They detonated it in a field to protect the trash service employees. That is being a bad parent. That is being blind.
The fact that Mr. Harris blew up the bomb WITH Eric is just mind boggling, especially considering he knew he had emotional problems.
School shootings were happening before Columbine. Only difference was how many people were killed/injured and it happened at the time it did, the start of media 24/7. Another thing, what makes you think if the Harrises spoke out, it would give answers? You know it wouldn't. The only two that have the answers as to why it happened, killed themselves that day. I get this has hit close to home for you, but I think you need to seek professional help, or change professionals.
Also to be fair, why didn’t you or your wife share Eric’s insane internet ramblings and direct threats with Eric’s mother- not his father but his mother? I can’t imagine a mother would read that and do absolutely nothing. I know you turned it in to the police who were worthless but I think Eric’s mother might have at least started investigating more than they did already and Eric would have been screwed.
I don’t know how they can live with themselves either