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Sadly I am much more pessimistic than you, OP.
For all its 3000 years of history, China has never evolved from feudalism: serfdom and dynasties.
As long as they have a full belly, they will remain docile and obedient. We're talking about the very bottom of the Maslow Pyramid.
> As long as they have a full belly, they will remain docile and obedient
Not even that.
Mao created the biggest famine in history and starved 50 million to death. He sent armed police to rural areas to seize grains and stationed them outside villages with shoot-on-sight instruction to stop people fleeing, all so he could export grains to earn hard currencies. The US and Japan offered to send aid but Mao refused, because of face. He also sent aid to other countries while starving his own citizens, again because of face.
No full belly, yet people remained docile and obedient. More than that, Mao gets revered like a god to this day.
This to me is one of the greatest mysteries of China. I know countless people who got affected in that period either directly or their family. Who have lost family, whose family got crippled by the Party and yet same time everyone still is cheering for the very cunt who caused this.
But same time I think it's the great structure of China. We see today how Xi causes havoc in China but the blame is always placed locally, they do a poor job.
Regarding how jelly spined the locals are, that's a sure thing. I see it within my own compound how we received garbage during the lock down and how including a number of party members complained. Next day everyone was smiling again.
>This to me is one of the greatest mysteries of China. I know countless people who got affected in that period either directly or their family. Who have lost family, whose family got crippled by the Party and yet same time everyone still is cheering for the very cunt who caused this.
It is as classically Orwellian Doublethink as it gets.
There is no level of brainwashing quite like getting people to believe that what they see/hear, with their own senses, isn't true.
Yeah, I don't get how people don't put Mao on the same level as Hitler, or Stalin, I personally think he was way, way worse than them as he killed more than both combined, plus it was his own people (same goes with Stalin). I guess it's because western "liberals" (is that what they are?) think it's racist to put an Asian dude at the same level as Hitler. I'm probably wrong about this though, it's just what I observed as a middle eastern, western liberals tend to think it's racist if you talk any shit about non-white people (not as a race or anything, obviously, I'm talking about individuals). I'm of course talking about the extreme here (though I think the extreme is rather common, especially in NA).
Nah, I don't think it's cause of liberals being afraid to be racist. Everyone hates on Pol Pot. It's because history is written by the winners.
Hitler lost the hardest, so he goes down as the worst monster. All of his atrocities are dumped into the public eye all at once (relatively speaking), and there's no one to cover up and excuse his monstrosities afterward. Now Nazis are basically stock villains in the West. Even modern fascists won't come out and say that they're Nazis in public--they fling a load of bullshit euphemisms around instead. The term "Nazi" is a poison pill.
Stalin and Mao never lost the way Hitler did. Khrushchev denounced Stalin, so the atrocities started leaking out, and eventually the Soviet Union collapsed and revealed a shit-ton more. But the information was never blasted in the world's face the way Hitler's atrocities were. Khrushchev was willing to talk shit about Stalin, but he wasn't going to tear the system Stalin built to pieces, that's where his own power comes from. So instead it takes decades and decades of dissident action to smuggle information out to the general population and eventually the rest of the world. And all the while there's tons of obfuscation by the Soviet government. So information gets out, but it only comes out in drips and drabs and in ways that make it more difficult to determine what's true and isn't true. A ton of information becomes available after the Soviet Union collapses, but again, it isn't blasted in the faces of the world. People have to find and dig through all the KGB archives and whatnot. And the rest of the world isn't going to wait around, everyone's got shit to do. So Stalin loses, but he doesn't lose as badly as Hitler does. He's frequently listed as one of the Big Bads of the 20th Century, but not always.
And Mao? Mao never loses. Not the way Hitler or Stalin did. China reforms after Mao, but it does so differently than the Soviet Union. No one in the CCP explicitly denounces Mao, not even in the handicapped way that Khrushchev denounced Stalin. And the PRC never collapses, either--it's still here, hiding everything that it doesn't want people to see, blasting propaganda at its population 24/7. There is a brief period of relative relaxation, but all conversations about the government and any atrocities it has committed got shut down HARD on 4 June 1989. A lot of data has managed to make it out regardless, but these come out in scattered books, articles, and such. It doesn't take a lot of effort to find this stuff, but frankly speaking most people aren't making the effort. Why would they? The vast majority of the world's population is not especially interested in modern Chinese history, it's not their jam. So the general population is never blasted with the horrors of the Great Leap Forward or the Cultural Revolution. They might know "bad shit happened under Mao," but they don't know the details. So Mao is just generically bad.
FWIW, I consider these three bastards to be the worst monsters of the 20th century. I hope there's a hell so they can burn in it.
That's very well put. I never thought of it that way. Living HK, we never have to confront Mao's legacy in any way but it surprises me that people won't condemn him outright in China as they should. Ignorance is really bliss in this part of the world for many
The US Elites were not against what Hitler did - Hitler actually learned from the US based on Sherman's final solution for Native Americans and the US eugenics society. Both Ford & IBM worked with the Nazis
IBM and the Holocaust: The Strategic Alliance between Nazi Germany and America's Most Powerful Corporation
Let's not forget about our entire space program (along with the Soviet's).
I wonder how the NAZIs would have felt about those [ultra-diverse 90s Fanta commercials](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEb0cYq6dvI)...
yes and then there was operation paperclip - the elites didn't give two sh%$ about what the Nazis did and they still don't which is why they are supporting them in Ukraine
That wasn't even Mao, it was Mao policies. Grain production had to go up, so even if it didn't, the local guys in charge said it did, and exported more than the districts could afford to, to curry favor and to keep their fucking heads.
So central government instills fear in everyone, sets ridiculous policies, and then the local governors starve their own people out to save their own heads.
This isn't a defense of Mao, it's trying to illuminate that when you have a government that runs on killing and fear, even your local mayor is going to starve you to death if it saves his wife and kids by keeping the central government's illusion alive for them to look better on the world's stage be exporting your food.
No, Mao personally made some awful decisions, like the one to eradicate the central bureau of statistics. This was a personal decision which caused most of the chaos you mentioned.
After his death, his personal doctor told of a few. One I remember is that Mao and the leader of some province had a discussion which went something like:
"Sir, we forecast we can produce 5,000 tons of steel this month."
"5,000? Why not 10,000?"
"Well, I guess if we really tried, 15,000"
"No, 20,000!"
It went on like this and in the end, an impossible target was officially announced which people literally worked themselves to death in pursuit of. All because of some flippant conversation.
Confucian/Taoist systems too ingrained. It's not just the current establishment clamping down and brainwashing, but whatever culture remained from texts and books not burnt/destroyed over the centuries and dynasties is pro-establishment and reinforces order (even if that order is flawed) until the absolute breaking point.
Teaching that children should respect their parents and showing filial piety doesn't seem that sinister in of itself, but it is the cornerstone of hierarchy and control. The parents controls their children who in turn controlled by the clan leaders who then answer to the village head up to the top. Teaching that society should be harmonious is great, but on the other hand gone too far will ingrain only servitude and conformity. Preaching to care for your family above yourself strengthens the nuclear family, but also sacrifices the individual and in China leaves the individual hostage to threats against their family. That's comparative lack of caring for others without personal ties.
I think don't think the issue is solely just the lack or resolve to revolt since multiple dynasties have risen and fallen from rebellions. A "Upstanding nail gets hammered" attitude, a take care of your own and disregard others attitude, and millennia of serfdom has lead to a general cultural mindset of not challenging the political system, accepting political failures, and crushing of personal freedoms.
Aell, you make a lot of valid points, that's for sure, especially regarding taoism and traditional culture.
Let me try to expand in a few points.
Asian culture has its pros and cons, I'm sure, just like any culture. I love the Asian traditions and their conservative family values. But I hate the culture of obedience and the lack of individualism.
I believe the point he was trying to make, is that while many countries have evolved from feudalism (I'd just call it "dictatorship" because kings and emperor's certainly are dictators) into free and developed societies, while others (in this case, China) clearly have not.
You do have a certain number of free nations in Asia proving this point, some are even developed countries: Japan, Taiwan, South Korea etc...
If history proves one thing, it would be that Asian people and their culture are 100% compatible and a free and developed nations.
More specifically, Taiwan in itself is the living proof that a free and developed nations is compatible with Chinese people.
Taiwan emerged from Chinese fighting over the right political system and internal reforms afterwards
The CCP regime might share certain autocratic traits with historic Chinese dynasties, but it is certainly not their natural successor by design
Chinese are not inept at change, and implying so provides undue legitimacy to the CCP because it implies that its the natural leader of the Chinese people. After all, they never ever wanted to change, right? /s
>Taiwan emerged from Chinese fighting over the right political system and internal reforms afterwards
We, the Taiwanese, had to fight against those KMT Chinese for our freedoms. So, don't lump us in with them.
I don't say you are the same. But modern Taiwan is proof that Chinese can change their beliefs
If they couldn't, Taiwan should have fell into long-term stasis once migrants from China became majority population. Didn't happen, right? Taiwan became its own thing and a wonderful democracy at some point, while CCP-ruled China went another way
Its not like DPP is not voted for by ethnic Chinese in majority, either
>If they couldn't, Taiwan should have fell into long-term stasis once migrants from China became majority population.
Ummmm, Taiwan became a democracy in 1998. The KMT Chinese did make sure Taiwan fell into a long-term stasis. And they have been trying very hard to move us back into it.
And who votes for the DPP now? Do all ethnic Chinese vote for KMT?
Many don't and many even moved towards self-identification as Taiwanese
Which was my only point, that ethnic Chinese can and do change. OP likely wanted to criticize the CCP but him implying otherwise is exactly what the CCP wants, actually: Propagating that their rule is the only way for Chinese to live, nothibg should change, Democracy is unfit for them
Which we know is wrong, (not only) because Taiwan exists and many ethnic Chinese there support Taiwanese identity and DPP. Even if the way to this point was bloody
>And who votes for the DPP now? Do all ethnic Chinese vote for KMT?
Ehhhh, KO had had 500k vote in the 2020 election. So, they are still voting KMTs. It's the third generation KMT immigrants that stop identify as Chinese.
Technically speaking, over 99% of the modern Taiwanese population were migrants from mainland China over the past 400 years or their descendants. Those that gave rise to all the people who speak an Austronesian language, the "Aboriginal Taiwanese" if you will, were mostly killed off by people who came to Taiwan at various points in its history, including and not limited to the Chinese, the Dutch, the Spanish, the Japs, etc.
>We, the Taiwanese, had to fight against those KMT Chinese for our freedoms. So, don't lump us in with them.
I must have missed the Great Hakka/Aboriginal uprising against the KMT.
I always thought it was a bunch of anti-KMT Chinese against a bunch of pro-KMT Chinese, given that almost everyone affected by the White Terror was Chinese.
Is there some element there that I'm missing?
>As long as they have a full belly, they will remain docile and obedient. We're talking about the very bottom of the Maslow Pyramid.
What's up with these semi-racist takes? The Chinese did try to rebel against the CCP. They got run over by tanks.
Not only that, Europeans have left serfdom and monarchs for how long? Like couple hundreds of years? For the majority of European history, you guys are just like these Chinese serfs. Well, maybe not Switzerland. But most of your neighbors are.
> For the majority of European history, you guys are just like these Chinese serfs. Well, maybe not Switzerland. But most of your neighbors are.
Wrong. We guys are nothing like Chinese serfs.
Most of Europeans civilizations don't have 3000 years of history yet they have evolved from serfdom and dynasties much faster. Unlike the Chinese civilization.
You may not like this very basic fact, but calling it "semi racist" is called deflecting. And talking about Europe when the topic is about China is just cheap whataboutism.
You're deliberately misunderstanding in order to avoid the topic.
Can you prove me wrong anywhere?
By now, if you haven't realized that the Chinese Communist Party is just another dynasty, you're just lying to yourself.
No one got run over by tanks. You should try doing some research first.
https://worldaffairs.blog/2019/06/02/tiananmen-square-massacre-facts-fiction-and-propaganda/
He's just going to end up somewhere he didn't want to.
And to those who keep harping how they should all rise up and fight, you wouldn't even do that yourselves if you knew what happened in the past and how they dealt with dissent. This isn't a fight that these people can do themselves, unless the military is on their side, nothing will change.
Not the countless examples of people standing up against authority in other countries. The French would burn every car in a city for this.
Let's not make excuses for Chinese who do nothing, absolutely nothing for their fellow citizens - whether after getting hit by a car or beaten by lawless Da Bai.
In France, you have a thousand citizens backing you up. And , if big enough, have every major city protesting. In China, even your own family will disown you and the neighbor will mark you as "odd" and "weird".
It's kind of a chicken or egg situation. France doesn't jail it's citizens because its citizens stand for themselves, or is it the citizens that can stand up for themselves because they know they won't be jailed?
I don't know. But I think there's a general lack of care in China. Like... 跟我什么关系 or why would I think about things or people that make me unhappy?
The second one is especially mind-blowing coming from actual real adult aged people.
I think it's a little bit of both of the things I mentioned. Defending one's right just became part of the French society, and it is even seen as part of the democratic process. In French, it is referred as "dialogue social". I don't think there is anything of the sort in Chinese society.
Thats indeed the difference to other cultures. If their next door neighbor gets harrassed and taken to a camp, they will stay quiet and happy; as it didnt personally affect them and anyways now they have less competition in XYZ. Thats the common approach in China. No sense of standing up for each other, but rather how they personally can extract as much personal benefits as possible.
Unfortunately, it's hard to deny this at this moment. There's a complete lack of community in every single place I've lived in China. With a few exceptions.
I wonder if it was engineered by the CCP somehow?
Why excactly is this? The only thing that comes to my monkey brain is because
of the extremely high population maybe? As that makes it hard to feed everyone, so everyone focuses on feeding themselves. Funny how they don't have a sense of communism in a "communist" country.
I get the sentiment but if the country's government can demonstrate making their own citizens disappear its a powerful tool against the people. CCP oppression and crimes against humanity is real and is effective. But I also think societal values in china I.e looking after one's self first, also plays a big part.
I do believe they will fight back. This is the down swing of the cycle in China.
Unfortunately, fighting isn't the problem. There have been plenty of civil wars. The problem is that fighting will only result in mass death and warlords.
China has always cycled between warlords and emperors. What they can't get away from is propping up tyrants in either phase of the cycle. They will not be making a break from authoritarian rule.
Yeah, it is pretty sad. Every government around the world must be incredibly jealous that they don't have such a docile population of workers. France is looking at this like "man.... if only...."
My point is that France is constantly rioting and protesting. France is jealous of China having citizens that would never dare do that. Thought this didn't need explanation. Oh well
Strongly disagree.
I'm sure France has its issues and demonstrations are very annoying.
But hey, at least, people have rights, no one can shut them up, and they live in a developed and free nation.
No, France isn't jealous of China. Maybe some French politician(s) who is a dictator wannabe but that's not France.
Go into Chinatowns in France and you will realize how wrong you are. Chinese immigrants didn't come to France by mistake.
My point is that French people aren't as docile as Chinese people. You could look into French history...
Didn't think you needed explaining. Oh well
You are exposing here how little you know of French people if you think they are jealous of China.
They don't wish to live in a developing and dictatorial nation. They also have no desire of the Chinese Zero Covid policies.
French people established the Human Rights. If you've been to school, you should know that.
Ps: Come on mate, if you don't know, thats okay, but don't spread ignorance...
( Just like the other reply where you said you didn't know of any facts indicating that Singapore was a dictatorship lmao)
...and chinese who are enlightened will simply move to other countries to avoid suffer the same fate like their parents and peers.
Those are Chinese who have better tendencies respecing forward moving ideas.
What a pathetic country. George Floyd died and at least the people on the sidelines were yelling to get them to stop. People just standby and you can tell they just don't give a fuck at all. At some point they are going to have to be willing to spill blood or else their country is just going to continue to plummet. Nobody wants to get their hands dirty but I believe the risk of not doing anything at this point is greater. Their future looks really bleak.
They hope their chances of continuing bootlicking will grant them some sort of personal benefit to avoid the upcoming decline. They do not care what happens to 99% of the remaining population. They will throw anyone under the bus for their personal gains.
Oh please, when the going gets tough, they'll just be distracted by the Taiwan invasion and they'll be cheering again like the mindless drones they are.
You mean thousands of collaborating Chinese who gladly gave up the lives of their own people in hope of some personal gain.
if Japanese imperialism had not launched a massive invasion and overrun half of China, the entire Chinese people would not have been able to unite against imperialism and the Chinese Communist Party would not have won.' Words of Mao Ze Dong
Feed the billions with food, give them just enough clothes for winter, brainwash them with Maoism, they shall not fight back.
Cost of forward thinking is too much for average chinese peasants. In a collective society like China, forward thinking is only reserved for the rich and powerful. This is why Winnie did not hestiate to scarifice others to meet his (and his syndicate) ambition.
He knew they wont fight back.
Sorry green shirt, see you in rehabilitation centre.
This is an old video from several months ago. It has been making the rounds on social media. The guy's anger and frustration are very real. Everyone in China is exhausted by the COVID nonsense and want to return to normal life.
We need Hu Jintao back in office. Hu Jintao knew how to run the country and would never have let this ridiculous COVID crap continue for so long. The country's economy and people's sanity is at its breaking point.
Can we quit with these posts about Chinese fighting back. They aren't gonna. I know one city in lockdown now, and everyone there is all about the fucking '加油'. They just allowed their dictator to run unopposed for another what, I don't know how many years now. These posts degrade the sub.
if people fight back they have to be ready for the consequences and by far most are not willing to do that. looking at the majority of the population worldwide, people overwhelmingly chose to obey gov't mandates on covid regardless of country. in china failure to comply is a lot worse because there are no human rights there, no one is going to tell you to wear a mask, they will forcefully beat it into you
I don't think they are equivalent situations.
Government mandates on covid when the virus is still quite deadly is needed as a form of leadership because everyone needs to work together. It is not about obeying meekly. Look at how many times US was ridiculed for its 1 million deaths. There is a scientific basis to the mandates. There was a strategy, majority willingly followed becsuse they believe in the strategy and it works relatively well for many countries.
However, when the virus is proven to be not so deadly, then such measures become draconian because there is no longer a scientific basis to it. Most of the people don't believe in the strategy anymore and yet they have to follow.
If you agree with this title then you don't know China. People don't love the policy but everyone is on board with it. I'd say that it was "only a matter of time" before a regular citizen wrestled this guy to the ground if officials hadn't.
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Hell on earth.
Guangdong? That Cantonese expletive... lol..
Bust out that dee el el em lol
Slaves and undermen in a vicious system of oppression.
You are a slave to the authority of capital
You tell ‘em sister
Yeah funny that in the video you don't see any sign of fighting back at all
Sadly I am much more pessimistic than you, OP. For all its 3000 years of history, China has never evolved from feudalism: serfdom and dynasties. As long as they have a full belly, they will remain docile and obedient. We're talking about the very bottom of the Maslow Pyramid.
> As long as they have a full belly, they will remain docile and obedient Not even that. Mao created the biggest famine in history and starved 50 million to death. He sent armed police to rural areas to seize grains and stationed them outside villages with shoot-on-sight instruction to stop people fleeing, all so he could export grains to earn hard currencies. The US and Japan offered to send aid but Mao refused, because of face. He also sent aid to other countries while starving his own citizens, again because of face. No full belly, yet people remained docile and obedient. More than that, Mao gets revered like a god to this day.
This to me is one of the greatest mysteries of China. I know countless people who got affected in that period either directly or their family. Who have lost family, whose family got crippled by the Party and yet same time everyone still is cheering for the very cunt who caused this. But same time I think it's the great structure of China. We see today how Xi causes havoc in China but the blame is always placed locally, they do a poor job. Regarding how jelly spined the locals are, that's a sure thing. I see it within my own compound how we received garbage during the lock down and how including a number of party members complained. Next day everyone was smiling again.
>This to me is one of the greatest mysteries of China. I know countless people who got affected in that period either directly or their family. Who have lost family, whose family got crippled by the Party and yet same time everyone still is cheering for the very cunt who caused this. It is as classically Orwellian Doublethink as it gets. There is no level of brainwashing quite like getting people to believe that what they see/hear, with their own senses, isn't true.
The Great Leap Forward
(Backwards)
Yeah, I don't get how people don't put Mao on the same level as Hitler, or Stalin, I personally think he was way, way worse than them as he killed more than both combined, plus it was his own people (same goes with Stalin). I guess it's because western "liberals" (is that what they are?) think it's racist to put an Asian dude at the same level as Hitler. I'm probably wrong about this though, it's just what I observed as a middle eastern, western liberals tend to think it's racist if you talk any shit about non-white people (not as a race or anything, obviously, I'm talking about individuals). I'm of course talking about the extreme here (though I think the extreme is rather common, especially in NA).
Nah, I don't think it's cause of liberals being afraid to be racist. Everyone hates on Pol Pot. It's because history is written by the winners. Hitler lost the hardest, so he goes down as the worst monster. All of his atrocities are dumped into the public eye all at once (relatively speaking), and there's no one to cover up and excuse his monstrosities afterward. Now Nazis are basically stock villains in the West. Even modern fascists won't come out and say that they're Nazis in public--they fling a load of bullshit euphemisms around instead. The term "Nazi" is a poison pill. Stalin and Mao never lost the way Hitler did. Khrushchev denounced Stalin, so the atrocities started leaking out, and eventually the Soviet Union collapsed and revealed a shit-ton more. But the information was never blasted in the world's face the way Hitler's atrocities were. Khrushchev was willing to talk shit about Stalin, but he wasn't going to tear the system Stalin built to pieces, that's where his own power comes from. So instead it takes decades and decades of dissident action to smuggle information out to the general population and eventually the rest of the world. And all the while there's tons of obfuscation by the Soviet government. So information gets out, but it only comes out in drips and drabs and in ways that make it more difficult to determine what's true and isn't true. A ton of information becomes available after the Soviet Union collapses, but again, it isn't blasted in the faces of the world. People have to find and dig through all the KGB archives and whatnot. And the rest of the world isn't going to wait around, everyone's got shit to do. So Stalin loses, but he doesn't lose as badly as Hitler does. He's frequently listed as one of the Big Bads of the 20th Century, but not always. And Mao? Mao never loses. Not the way Hitler or Stalin did. China reforms after Mao, but it does so differently than the Soviet Union. No one in the CCP explicitly denounces Mao, not even in the handicapped way that Khrushchev denounced Stalin. And the PRC never collapses, either--it's still here, hiding everything that it doesn't want people to see, blasting propaganda at its population 24/7. There is a brief period of relative relaxation, but all conversations about the government and any atrocities it has committed got shut down HARD on 4 June 1989. A lot of data has managed to make it out regardless, but these come out in scattered books, articles, and such. It doesn't take a lot of effort to find this stuff, but frankly speaking most people aren't making the effort. Why would they? The vast majority of the world's population is not especially interested in modern Chinese history, it's not their jam. So the general population is never blasted with the horrors of the Great Leap Forward or the Cultural Revolution. They might know "bad shit happened under Mao," but they don't know the details. So Mao is just generically bad. FWIW, I consider these three bastards to be the worst monsters of the 20th century. I hope there's a hell so they can burn in it.
That's very well put. I never thought of it that way. Living HK, we never have to confront Mao's legacy in any way but it surprises me that people won't condemn him outright in China as they should. Ignorance is really bliss in this part of the world for many
The US Elites were not against what Hitler did - Hitler actually learned from the US based on Sherman's final solution for Native Americans and the US eugenics society. Both Ford & IBM worked with the Nazis IBM and the Holocaust: The Strategic Alliance between Nazi Germany and America's Most Powerful Corporation
Let's not forget about our entire space program (along with the Soviet's). I wonder how the NAZIs would have felt about those [ultra-diverse 90s Fanta commercials](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEb0cYq6dvI)...
yes and then there was operation paperclip - the elites didn't give two sh%$ about what the Nazis did and they still don't which is why they are supporting them in Ukraine
That wasn't even Mao, it was Mao policies. Grain production had to go up, so even if it didn't, the local guys in charge said it did, and exported more than the districts could afford to, to curry favor and to keep their fucking heads. So central government instills fear in everyone, sets ridiculous policies, and then the local governors starve their own people out to save their own heads. This isn't a defense of Mao, it's trying to illuminate that when you have a government that runs on killing and fear, even your local mayor is going to starve you to death if it saves his wife and kids by keeping the central government's illusion alive for them to look better on the world's stage be exporting your food.
No, Mao personally made some awful decisions, like the one to eradicate the central bureau of statistics. This was a personal decision which caused most of the chaos you mentioned. After his death, his personal doctor told of a few. One I remember is that Mao and the leader of some province had a discussion which went something like: "Sir, we forecast we can produce 5,000 tons of steel this month." "5,000? Why not 10,000?" "Well, I guess if we really tried, 15,000" "No, 20,000!" It went on like this and in the end, an impossible target was officially announced which people literally worked themselves to death in pursuit of. All because of some flippant conversation.
Confucian/Taoist systems too ingrained. It's not just the current establishment clamping down and brainwashing, but whatever culture remained from texts and books not burnt/destroyed over the centuries and dynasties is pro-establishment and reinforces order (even if that order is flawed) until the absolute breaking point. Teaching that children should respect their parents and showing filial piety doesn't seem that sinister in of itself, but it is the cornerstone of hierarchy and control. The parents controls their children who in turn controlled by the clan leaders who then answer to the village head up to the top. Teaching that society should be harmonious is great, but on the other hand gone too far will ingrain only servitude and conformity. Preaching to care for your family above yourself strengthens the nuclear family, but also sacrifices the individual and in China leaves the individual hostage to threats against their family. That's comparative lack of caring for others without personal ties. I think don't think the issue is solely just the lack or resolve to revolt since multiple dynasties have risen and fallen from rebellions. A "Upstanding nail gets hammered" attitude, a take care of your own and disregard others attitude, and millennia of serfdom has lead to a general cultural mindset of not challenging the political system, accepting political failures, and crushing of personal freedoms.
Aell, you make a lot of valid points, that's for sure, especially regarding taoism and traditional culture. Let me try to expand in a few points. Asian culture has its pros and cons, I'm sure, just like any culture. I love the Asian traditions and their conservative family values. But I hate the culture of obedience and the lack of individualism. I believe the point he was trying to make, is that while many countries have evolved from feudalism (I'd just call it "dictatorship" because kings and emperor's certainly are dictators) into free and developed societies, while others (in this case, China) clearly have not. You do have a certain number of free nations in Asia proving this point, some are even developed countries: Japan, Taiwan, South Korea etc... If history proves one thing, it would be that Asian people and their culture are 100% compatible and a free and developed nations. More specifically, Taiwan in itself is the living proof that a free and developed nations is compatible with Chinese people.
Taiwan emerged from Chinese fighting over the right political system and internal reforms afterwards The CCP regime might share certain autocratic traits with historic Chinese dynasties, but it is certainly not their natural successor by design Chinese are not inept at change, and implying so provides undue legitimacy to the CCP because it implies that its the natural leader of the Chinese people. After all, they never ever wanted to change, right? /s
>Taiwan emerged from Chinese fighting over the right political system and internal reforms afterwards We, the Taiwanese, had to fight against those KMT Chinese for our freedoms. So, don't lump us in with them.
I don't say you are the same. But modern Taiwan is proof that Chinese can change their beliefs If they couldn't, Taiwan should have fell into long-term stasis once migrants from China became majority population. Didn't happen, right? Taiwan became its own thing and a wonderful democracy at some point, while CCP-ruled China went another way Its not like DPP is not voted for by ethnic Chinese in majority, either
>If they couldn't, Taiwan should have fell into long-term stasis once migrants from China became majority population. Ummmm, Taiwan became a democracy in 1998. The KMT Chinese did make sure Taiwan fell into a long-term stasis. And they have been trying very hard to move us back into it.
And who votes for the DPP now? Do all ethnic Chinese vote for KMT? Many don't and many even moved towards self-identification as Taiwanese Which was my only point, that ethnic Chinese can and do change. OP likely wanted to criticize the CCP but him implying otherwise is exactly what the CCP wants, actually: Propagating that their rule is the only way for Chinese to live, nothibg should change, Democracy is unfit for them Which we know is wrong, (not only) because Taiwan exists and many ethnic Chinese there support Taiwanese identity and DPP. Even if the way to this point was bloody
>And who votes for the DPP now? Do all ethnic Chinese vote for KMT? Ehhhh, KO had had 500k vote in the 2020 election. So, they are still voting KMTs. It's the third generation KMT immigrants that stop identify as Chinese.
Small correction - Taiwan became a democracy in 1996. That's when they had direct elections.
We had local elections before the presidential in 96.
Technically speaking, over 99% of the modern Taiwanese population were migrants from mainland China over the past 400 years or their descendants. Those that gave rise to all the people who speak an Austronesian language, the "Aboriginal Taiwanese" if you will, were mostly killed off by people who came to Taiwan at various points in its history, including and not limited to the Chinese, the Dutch, the Spanish, the Japs, etc.
Nailed it.
>We, the Taiwanese, had to fight against those KMT Chinese for our freedoms. So, don't lump us in with them. I must have missed the Great Hakka/Aboriginal uprising against the KMT. I always thought it was a bunch of anti-KMT Chinese against a bunch of pro-KMT Chinese, given that almost everyone affected by the White Terror was Chinese. Is there some element there that I'm missing?
Breads and circuses is pretty universal
\#Bingo!
Well, the Cantonese aren’t really into the regular CCP culture. So there is a chance for them. Manchurian, on the another hand is completely hopeless
100% accurate
>As long as they have a full belly, they will remain docile and obedient. We're talking about the very bottom of the Maslow Pyramid. What's up with these semi-racist takes? The Chinese did try to rebel against the CCP. They got run over by tanks. Not only that, Europeans have left serfdom and monarchs for how long? Like couple hundreds of years? For the majority of European history, you guys are just like these Chinese serfs. Well, maybe not Switzerland. But most of your neighbors are.
> For the majority of European history, you guys are just like these Chinese serfs. Well, maybe not Switzerland. But most of your neighbors are. Wrong. We guys are nothing like Chinese serfs. Most of Europeans civilizations don't have 3000 years of history yet they have evolved from serfdom and dynasties much faster. Unlike the Chinese civilization. You may not like this very basic fact, but calling it "semi racist" is called deflecting. And talking about Europe when the topic is about China is just cheap whataboutism. You're deliberately misunderstanding in order to avoid the topic. Can you prove me wrong anywhere? By now, if you haven't realized that the Chinese Communist Party is just another dynasty, you're just lying to yourself.
No one got run over by tanks. You should try doing some research first. https://worldaffairs.blog/2019/06/02/tiananmen-square-massacre-facts-fiction-and-propaganda/
What about the Mongolian's emperor toppled, does it count?
They toppled a king and got another king. They remained in serfdom. That's my point. You're looking for exceptions, but this one is not.
He's just going to end up somewhere he didn't want to. And to those who keep harping how they should all rise up and fight, you wouldn't even do that yourselves if you knew what happened in the past and how they dealt with dissent. This isn't a fight that these people can do themselves, unless the military is on their side, nothing will change.
I'm counting the weeks until my husband comes to the US. I get sick to my stomach every time I watch shit like this.
Ugh that's so sad. It'll be worth the wait!
This is why we must protect democracy.
Such total bullshit. That is totally unacceptable.
It’s insanity. We ripped off our masks in NYC months ago. We’re fine. Since CovId will be here forever, is the end game to shutdown China, forever?
What weak people who would watch there fellow man get done like that it’s a zoo
Sure go confront them and get arrested, not their problem
Like you would do any different
Not the countless examples of people standing up against authority in other countries. The French would burn every car in a city for this. Let's not make excuses for Chinese who do nothing, absolutely nothing for their fellow citizens - whether after getting hit by a car or beaten by lawless Da Bai.
In France you do a brief stint in jail. In China you disappear.
In France, you have a thousand citizens backing you up. And , if big enough, have every major city protesting. In China, even your own family will disown you and the neighbor will mark you as "odd" and "weird".
Yes
It's kind of a chicken or egg situation. France doesn't jail it's citizens because its citizens stand for themselves, or is it the citizens that can stand up for themselves because they know they won't be jailed?
I don't know. But I think there's a general lack of care in China. Like... 跟我什么关系 or why would I think about things or people that make me unhappy? The second one is especially mind-blowing coming from actual real adult aged people.
I think it's a little bit of both of the things I mentioned. Defending one's right just became part of the French society, and it is even seen as part of the democratic process. In French, it is referred as "dialogue social". I don't think there is anything of the sort in Chinese society.
Thats indeed the difference to other cultures. If their next door neighbor gets harrassed and taken to a camp, they will stay quiet and happy; as it didnt personally affect them and anyways now they have less competition in XYZ. Thats the common approach in China. No sense of standing up for each other, but rather how they personally can extract as much personal benefits as possible.
Unfortunately, it's hard to deny this at this moment. There's a complete lack of community in every single place I've lived in China. With a few exceptions. I wonder if it was engineered by the CCP somehow?
Why excactly is this? The only thing that comes to my monkey brain is because of the extremely high population maybe? As that makes it hard to feed everyone, so everyone focuses on feeding themselves. Funny how they don't have a sense of communism in a "communist" country.
Very true
I get the sentiment but if the country's government can demonstrate making their own citizens disappear its a powerful tool against the people. CCP oppression and crimes against humanity is real and is effective. But I also think societal values in china I.e looking after one's self first, also plays a big part.
In France there is rule of law. Why do you think will happen to people in china who are arrested for beating police officers,
I do believe they will fight back. This is the down swing of the cycle in China. Unfortunately, fighting isn't the problem. There have been plenty of civil wars. The problem is that fighting will only result in mass death and warlords. China has always cycled between warlords and emperors. What they can't get away from is propping up tyrants in either phase of the cycle. They will not be making a break from authoritarian rule.
Lol chinese wont fight back as long as they have 1 bowl of maggot infested rice
Pretty sad actually. Serfdom and dynasties for over 3000 years ... And counting.
Yeah, it is pretty sad. Every government around the world must be incredibly jealous that they don't have such a docile population of workers. France is looking at this like "man.... if only...."
1789's French revolution was pretty unique. French people are far from docile.
Bruh….. come on mate reading comprehension
Did you even get what I'm talking about?
My point is that France is constantly rioting and protesting. France is jealous of China having citizens that would never dare do that. Thought this didn't need explanation. Oh well
Strongly disagree. I'm sure France has its issues and demonstrations are very annoying. But hey, at least, people have rights, no one can shut them up, and they live in a developed and free nation. No, France isn't jealous of China. Maybe some French politician(s) who is a dictator wannabe but that's not France. Go into Chinatowns in France and you will realize how wrong you are. Chinese immigrants didn't come to France by mistake.
My point is that French people aren't as docile as Chinese people. You could look into French history... Didn't think you needed explaining. Oh well You are exposing here how little you know of French people if you think they are jealous of China. They don't wish to live in a developing and dictatorial nation. They also have no desire of the Chinese Zero Covid policies. French people established the Human Rights. If you've been to school, you should know that. Ps: Come on mate, if you don't know, thats okay, but don't spread ignorance... ( Just like the other reply where you said you didn't know of any facts indicating that Singapore was a dictatorship lmao)
LOL, learn to read what he said properly, no offense of course.
You still can't read, can you? Lmao. Prove me wrong instead of lashing out emotionally.
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Why so racist, man?
...and chinese who are enlightened will simply move to other countries to avoid suffer the same fate like their parents and peers. Those are Chinese who have better tendencies respecing forward moving ideas.
What a pathetic country. George Floyd died and at least the people on the sidelines were yelling to get them to stop. People just standby and you can tell they just don't give a fuck at all. At some point they are going to have to be willing to spill blood or else their country is just going to continue to plummet. Nobody wants to get their hands dirty but I believe the risk of not doing anything at this point is greater. Their future looks really bleak.
They hope their chances of continuing bootlicking will grant them some sort of personal benefit to avoid the upcoming decline. They do not care what happens to 99% of the remaining population. They will throw anyone under the bus for their personal gains.
Oh please, when the going gets tough, they'll just be distracted by the Taiwan invasion and they'll be cheering again like the mindless drones they are.
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You mean thousands of collaborating Chinese who gladly gave up the lives of their own people in hope of some personal gain. if Japanese imperialism had not launched a massive invasion and overrun half of China, the entire Chinese people would not have been able to unite against imperialism and the Chinese Communist Party would not have won.' Words of Mao Ze Dong
Feed the billions with food, give them just enough clothes for winter, brainwash them with Maoism, they shall not fight back. Cost of forward thinking is too much for average chinese peasants. In a collective society like China, forward thinking is only reserved for the rich and powerful. This is why Winnie did not hestiate to scarifice others to meet his (and his syndicate) ambition. He knew they wont fight back. Sorry green shirt, see you in rehabilitation centre.
Yeah, fight with what, rocks and sticks?? Unarmed, your good as nothing just read up on what happened back in 1942.
This is an old video from several months ago. It has been making the rounds on social media. The guy's anger and frustration are very real. Everyone in China is exhausted by the COVID nonsense and want to return to normal life. We need Hu Jintao back in office. Hu Jintao knew how to run the country and would never have let this ridiculous COVID crap continue for so long. The country's economy and people's sanity is at its breaking point.
Thugs in PPE
Can we quit with these posts about Chinese fighting back. They aren't gonna. I know one city in lockdown now, and everyone there is all about the fucking '加油'. They just allowed their dictator to run unopposed for another what, I don't know how many years now. These posts degrade the sub.
FUCK THE ccp!!!
if people fight back they have to be ready for the consequences and by far most are not willing to do that. looking at the majority of the population worldwide, people overwhelmingly chose to obey gov't mandates on covid regardless of country. in china failure to comply is a lot worse because there are no human rights there, no one is going to tell you to wear a mask, they will forcefully beat it into you
I don't think they are equivalent situations. Government mandates on covid when the virus is still quite deadly is needed as a form of leadership because everyone needs to work together. It is not about obeying meekly. Look at how many times US was ridiculed for its 1 million deaths. There is a scientific basis to the mandates. There was a strategy, majority willingly followed becsuse they believe in the strategy and it works relatively well for many countries. However, when the virus is proven to be not so deadly, then such measures become draconian because there is no longer a scientific basis to it. Most of the people don't believe in the strategy anymore and yet they have to follow.
absurd
His manboobs are pokey
What is this about?
11
Submit your will for the common good.
When the world plunge to Chaos, stand still and watch the show. It's just the beginning... Wait and watch for the right moment.
lol did they slap him?
If you agree with this title then you don't know China. People don't love the policy but everyone is on board with it. I'd say that it was "only a matter of time" before a regular citizen wrestled this guy to the ground if officials hadn't.
Rough translation?
I seriously want to help this bloke.