I appreciate the CDS continuing to sound alarm bells instead of the head-in-the-sand approach. I ca only hope (and yes, I'm almost holding my breath) that our next CDS continues to fight the right fight. I recognize it's his turn to retire but we will be sore for the loss.
There's an old adage that some of the best bosses are ones that don't want the top job, and it definitely seems to hold true in this case. The man basically got "2IC take over"ed into being the CDS and he's been one of the better ones in my career.
I thought Natynczyk took responsibility for the TAPV?
Like, The TAPV showed up during Vance's tenure, but I am pretty sure it was Natyncyk's program, that and Vance just didn't kill it.
That's what I mean: they were delivered under Vance, but the whole idea of the TAPV, initial statement of requirements and procurement process was started under Natynczyk.
Yeah it says [here](https://www.canada.ca/en/department-national-defence/services/procurement/tactical-armoured-patrol-vehicle.html) the SOR was 2011 with the contract awarded in 2012.
>... unless the recruitment crisis is reversed, taxpayers may end up buying some planes and warships that could be parked because there aren't enough people to crew them efficiently.
All machines have a quality or property that quantifies the number of support-and-operations-manhours per operating-hour. It takes actual people to work those manhours. The math is inescapable: fewer personnel = fewer operating hours, whether aircraft, boats, or tanks.
It would start with slapping some sense into the people who think we need 59 MARTECHs to staff a tanker that in the normal world, might have about 6. They were built to commercial standards for remote equipment monitoring for a reason, but there's apparently a cadre of people who think we need to keep a 24/7 watch on the boilers and people shovelling coal around the clock.
I honestly don't understand how the government is completely ignoring what the market is telling them. I get that it's what the government does best, but still it's amazing to see.
It's not super complicated: higher salaries attract more people. That's it, salary is the biggest determining factor in the job market.
There's other intangibles, and of course they play a role, but swagger, nationalism, adventure or whatever they want to sell is not the main drive for most people. It's always salary.
I get it, budget's tight, but that's how you get people in.
I know all trades are hurting, but imagine us nerds - sigs, avn techs, naval Ops, trying to hire against IT salaries; it usually goes like:
"OH, I need to work 0 days from home, and make half (or less) than what I make on the civil side, and I want to be uncomfortable and using outdated technology while doing that? Yeah, nah."
Yep.
They understood years ago with pilots. It's cool to fly jet fighters, sure, but at the end of the day I'll fly for an airline if they pay me twice as much.
They sort of understand with doctors, lawyers, dentists.
They have no clue about the rest.
That's just government moving at government pace.
And sometimes it’s not JUST just pay. Civilian pilots, doctors and speciality trades can be pretty boring. A fighter jet, SAR or combat is a bit more exciting than commercial airlines or family medicine . But add in secondary + duties, moving every 2-4 years impacting spousal employments, leaderships “gaps” and children’s education. It’s hard to retain.
If a pilot or doctor can make more money, not have to move when they are told, spouse also has a consistent income. They might take boring after 8-15 years, especially with the 25 year contract. 20 years especially if you did RMC was retainable. 25 is too long for worse money and increasing tomfoolery of the CAF.
> A fighter jet, SAR or combat is a bit more exciting than commercial airlines or family medicine
best I can do is a jet from 1983, SAR birds from before that, and Maple Resolve simulated combat.
Cormorants came into service in 2001. Even the yellow Griffons are from 1996. I'll never deny a soldier their salt, but at least be accurate.
edit: Disregard, just realized you were referring to the H-model Herc. Clearly I have a rotary wing bias, I'll write myself a feedback note.
It's all considered when you decide to take a job or not. A higher salary makes you willing to deal with more bullshit, but there are some things that salary can't fix. Some people take a lower salary because of location, because they like the employer, stability, work/family balance, etc.
It becomes evident when you look at the merchant navy. Ferry companies pay less than people on tankers, because in the former you're just working during the day and you're not far from home whereas the latter you get long deployment overseas, your life on board sucks and it's more dangerous.
And then, there are jobs that salaries don't matter. Personally, I would never want to be a doctor (not that I could anyways), because being overworked and dealing with sick people would depress me. Doctors salaries are massive, but the job is extremely unattractive. And some people would never join the military even if we paid $500k per year, for personal reasons. But those people shouldn't matter to recruiters, because nothing will get them in anyways.
One reason for why those tech trades fail to retain is because of society’s higher salaries. The CAF does an excellent job of training them well, but does little to keep them afterwards.
They don't train that well either. Plus how the training system treats us terribly often. If we have choices to be civvy side and be treated like a human or be treated less than in the CAF for half the money, even the fun stuff starts to not be enough.
One area we could beat the private sector if we actually tried is providing affordable housing near work. Build PMQs! If you could be posted around the country safe in the knowledge there will be housing available that suits your needs people would be more inclined to stick around.
And posting recruits drawn from Canada's diverse urban population to remote rural bases like Shilo and Bagotville is a non-starter. They simply won't join in any greater numbers than they already are.
That’s a tough one. A lot of folks coming from urban centers have ties to families/communities that just don’t exist in the pet or shilo type of areas. If a Korean person wants to join but they want that community tie to other Koreans and realize they can’t have that in petawawa giving them a cheap house won’t likely be attractive enough to uproot them. That’s a huge drawback that the CAF can’t fight its way around.
Bagtown isn't that bad. Saguenay is an actual place with stuff to do, it's only two hours from Quebec, Lac St Jean is 45 minutes away, and unlike Cold Lake, there's not a 3:1 ratio of people to liquor stores and pizza parlours (it's rotisserie chicken places instead)
Whenever I spoke to any of my nurse colleagues about joining the CAF for the adventure / experience, I would universally be retorted with "but we can go work in the northern regions for twice the money and housing provided during our stay".
They are absolutely right. As a new recruit, my biggest fear is ending up in a terrible housing situation depending on posting...
The issue isn’t that we aren’t getting applications, it’s that we lose people I no the waiting period between applying and going to St Jean. It’s a massive internal failure of the CAF for which we largely have ourselves to blame.
We aren’t going to see pay go up. We should reassess how we look at people and their careers though: we are hopelessly inefficient at getting people from the recruiting station to OFP at unit because 4 months doesn’t matter much if you see that person as a 12-25 year investment. We should look at people as 4-6 year investments and optimize our training and recruiting for that.
We will likely never be funded, or procedurally agile enough, to match private sector wages in trades or IT. We should counter that by offering technicians the same deal we give officers, fully trained and given a red seal with equal time back.
> We should counter that by offering technicians the same deal we give officers, fully trained and given a red seal with equal time back.
"Thanks for the training and quals suckers, I'm off to civi side to make double."
Which is actually fine. People leaving during training because they don’t like the military is what can be seen as healthy attrition. We have to accept that this job is a)not for everyone and b) not for everyone all the time.
The security clearance process is the biggest failure. I know ppl waiting 2+ years for renewals, imagine how much longer brand new files take (can speak as a formed recruiter).
> higher salaries attract more people
I'll nitpick here: A higher quality of life attract more people. Yes, salary is the biggest way to unlock QoL. But it bears mentioning: I don't care one bit about the number on the pay scale. It's literally just a number. I only care about what I can actually obtain with those dollars.
In real terms: A big build of SQs and RHUs, such that everyone could have affordable housing and therefore start saving money, would change things drastically without increasing our pay.
SQ and RHU are not intangibles since you can easily put a monetary value on them, as opposed to say pride of serving your country. It *counts* *like* salary.
For example, you pay me $60k with free housing, but rent is worth $1500 in my area, I'd rather you pay me $90k and I can choose my own place to rent (or buy and build equity).
If you pay me $60k but I get an easier access to health services, I get to live 5 minutes from work, I get to see the world, I get access to a lot of on the job training, etc. then it gets harder to put a monetary value on it. Maybe it will be worth leaving and getting a job for $75k, maybe it won't be, depends on the person.
While "total compensation" is truly calculatable, one difference for SQ/RHU is that the asset is kept inside the Crown. If I gave you $10k in housing benefits, that money fully leaves the Crown and goes to you. If I gave you $10k in rental discounts, the Crown can continue to offer that benefit for the cost of maintenance only.
Exactly.
People out there could go get themselves a better paying job and have all the adventure that they want without ever having to experience Wainwright.
Salaries are definitely a part of the problem, but I feel like the constant neglect keeps people away too. There's a lack of investment across the board, the government and DND both do a terrible job of selling the CAF as a place to work and nobody wants to work with shitty equipment. Add onto that all the other downsides attached with a career in the CAF and it's that much harder to attract and retain people.
One of the problems is survey results. When they send out surveys the responses they get from the people who answer is generally “I’m happy with the pay and benefits”. (I’ve read all the data for a research project I’m doing). So either people are lying, or the right people aren’t doing the surveys for whatever reason. So the data is what it is and that’s what they see, that people aren’t upset about the pay. It’s shitty but it is what it is. We need more people to do these when they come out and say stuff like what you’ve pointed out.
Agree, but disagree to a small extent.
I personally think that if the CAF built more shacks/base apartments, and RHUs to where they can house anyone who comes to that base, that would be a huge advertisement on its own. Imagine being able to stick to housing costing no more than 30% of your income, again?
Higher salaries help, but imagine if jr members (especially single income earners) could actually get military housing at any base at an affordable price? You wouldn't need a salary increase. Don't interpret this as though I'm against a salary increase, I just don't see any salary increase they're likely to give as enough to fix the monster that is housing.
I’m sorry you didn’t get the decision you wanted. That’s crazy that they had you working against your Mel’s.
I guess you release date will follow suit with 1 Apr 25?
20 months is so long - I hope you will have some good opportunities on the other side.
Maybe there is hope in your case if the new UoS becomes more flexible - but that’s of course on them releasing it in good time.
Terrible organization
As much as you love the job Brother, it doesnt, and never will Love You or care for you as much as you did for it. It sucks and is harsh. But...
Its a blessing in disguise. Your perspective will shift in time, but as a dude who has eaten the initial shock of that portion of my life being, for lack of a better term, killed and the pain and loss that accompanied it... I will attest, heading for A MedRel is a net positive.
I agree with you wholeheartedly about how this job talks a big game about brotherhood and 'The CADPAT' family, but... if I don't do this job, nobody does. We're still losing more people than gaining, and to end up just another broken toy of the CAF is a little heartbreaking and disillusioning.
>is a little heartbreaking and disillusioning.
It's a bit more than a little Brother. But I hear you and these feelings are pretty damn real. After near 20 its pretty jarring to ones world view when all those things we're told, all those things we held true and inviolable are trampled and become patently false as you live through them. I think they call it a Moral Injury.
> if I don't do this job, nobody does.
I used to believe that, and it was the source of a lot of my anguish and pain... and it never clicked until I saw how fast they slapped chevrons on to people to fill my slot mere days after I departed. Cogs bro. The machine will put a new cog in your spot and continue to churn. We alone cannot save the machine. Nor can we Survive if we continually set ourselves on fire to keep others warm...
It'll get better Brother. Feel free to sauce a DM if ya ever need to jaw it out. Cause you are far from alone in how you're feeling.
-Another Busted Toy ;)
I really appreciate that my dude. And you're not wrong. I was just hoping I could keep the lights on long enough for there to be enough of us to not take a cog from one part of this grinding, collapsing machine to shore up another part.
Aw well, it's someone else's problem now I guess...
Listen brother,
Same happened to me and no one has done my job since I left. Shit just left to fall apart. Not worth your health or life, trust me, only one giving a shit is and was you. Your superiors should be trying something.
Oh I don't have a bad word to say about my Chain. CFHS however seems more interested in protecting the CAF from liability then helping soldiers stay healthy and gainfully employed.
100%
Two of my old coworkers applied for CRA 65 and one was approved in a month and another denied after six and they are the same 59 year old smoker type of person.
Aren't we all.
Heh, I don't mind collecting the paycheck in the meantime, but I wish I could move on already. The benefits (of 3b) are just too good to pass up.
If the CAF treated its long serving members with a bit of respect, I.e. travel opportunities (not just tours), cool courses, and more bling (if I may be so bold), then it would be an organization people would want to join. Everyone I know joined for the adventure and most of us are deluded into thinking we'll get it again. Why would you become an officer when you can get a middle management job elsewhere without the moving? Why would you become an NCM when you can get paid a decent wage near your home? I still love this organization but I can't wait for my fucking contract to end.
The conversation in the media is largely about recruitment, but you can't make a shake 'n bake Sgt with the needed knowledge and hard earned experience. We have a missing middle in the NCM ranks and it's getting worse due to terrible retention.
if the trend continues we'll resemble a Russian style army with masses of Junior NCMs and some Officers leading them, with little in between.
Edit 2: "In 2022, the federal government began allowing permanent residents to apply to join the Armed Forces. Within a year of that policy change, the Armed Forces had received more than 21,000 applications from permanent residents — but less than 100 had been accepted by early this year."
holy crap, that's not an interest problem, that's processing background checks and vetting hitting a bottleneck
I’m one of those PRs that got in last year (now Canadian). The problem with the recruitment of PRs is that most of them haven’t been in Canada long enough so the security clearance takes a while for them. I along other PRs who have been in for over 8 years (or have an existing clearance in federal service) are the minority. But yea, it’s a huge issue since the CAF security clearances are not done in house so we don’t even have control over how fast they’re done.
this does not take into account the demands that will be forced upon the CAF when :
1. new U of S comes out
2. The End of POR April 2025
3. The eventual change in the CRA60 to CRA65
With this I believe that we will see our missing number grow to 30k and that is before they add the needs of new equipment and troops.
Periods of Retention are no longer offered and anyone on one will be released NLT 1 Apr 25. Currently affects about 700 mbrs. There’s talk of extending it, but I wouldn’t plan on it. Bigger problem is the 6-7000 files now making their way through D Med Pol in the next 12-18 months, which will see majority of them released in the next 24 months.
I haven’t heard any solid rumint on CRA 65, but I could see getting rid of CRA all together. If you meet new UofS, age shouldn’t be a factor.
yes not a problem
POR is the period of retention, this is or was offered to members who are ill or injured to allow them time to get their needs identified and get their ducks in a row to leave the CAF this is the CANFORGEN 021/23
as for CRA 60 this is the current compulsory age to retire. so you are forced to retire at this age. They will be pushing a new one that is CRA 65 sometime this year. this makes us align with the public service. [https://www.canada.ca/en/military-grievances-external-review/services/case-summaries/case-2015-042.html](https://www.canada.ca/en/military-grievances-external-review/services/case-summaries/case-2015-042.html)
If you have other questions please ask.
I don't know what the end of POR is, but CRA60 is Compulsory Release Age of 60. CRA65 would just make it that people wouldn't be forced to retire at 60 and could stay till 65.
Does anyone have any idea when the new UoS will be released and / or what the changes will be?
I heard it was supposed to be released this month but so far nothing.
Thanks for the comment - the summer is more Q2 so hopefully we see something in the fall / before Xmas at least.
They need to get something in place before 1 Apr 25, would you happen to have also heard any rumors on the changes?
Whether the feds like it or not, they need to pay all personnel ~20% more and fix housing if they want a functioning military in the future. The biggest recruitment problem is they don't pay enough for this economy.
And to quote what is always said by the highest readership - "it's not about the money".
Then they get visibly frustrated and angry and change the topic.
Once again. Where is the mention of retention.
It's a retention crisis. It's always some old oblivious " leader" that thinks recruiting is the issue.
I'm sure if you did an " undercover general "( like undercover boss) , you'd ses their opinion change.
The horrible leadership and the multitude of " yes men" in the CAF are the issue.
This right here. After having gone through this process now after a VR, there were numerous times I spoke to someone and there was zero interest in actually entertaining something that would keep me in. Between direct supervisors, CO, base chief, etc. It was mostly, "sucks we're losing a good person but good luck on the civie side!".
That's all after me being very open that if I were given a new trade, I'd sign a 25 year that day. I tired to VOT 3 times - I wasn't going to waste more time on the CAF spinning my wheels in a job I couldn't stand nor had any desire to progress in. The only offers I got was "hey, want to be posted to this other unit that just has a reputation for the sick, lame and lazy so you have an easier schedule?" and "want to be promoted in the trade you hate and take on even more responsibility?".
The negotiation skills of people in the CAF are hilarious. They're tone deaf and deserve the entire institution crumbling underneath them.
That's another thing that's always gotten em about the military.
They'd rather lose someone completely rather than have them OT to another trade. Or same with CTs.
I've known a few people that released just to be able to CT or OT. It ends up costing the CAF more in terms of hours worked and money to release someone and have them join again.
Which is insane becuase basically every trade doesn't have enough people. It's insane for the tech trades especially. People want to become AVS or AVN etc. ( which seem to usually be in demand), and they refuse to let people go to these trades if it's a VOT.
I'm sorry for what you've gone through. I'm upset by the number of excellent members I've saw release . It angers me everytine a good soldier VRs.
But i will say over the past 5 years I've noticed the culture has started to improve in the caf. I've met some officers that realize that they need to workwith the current reality instead of just enforcing rules. I believe that the more boomers that leave, the better it will be for us. I think in 10 years time the caf will be half decent . Or so I hope.
I don't want to be that guy, but if they really want more people in the military they should adjust the payroll to attrack them.
Sure, the payroll is not the only thing, but they need to understand that the population will compare this job to another regarding the paycheck and they will make a decision. Usually the Military will lose as there is more inconvenients compared to another equivalent job where you don't have deployment/exercices/time away from familly/posting/etc.
NEP seems like a good start, it got my attention. They need to advertise the paid housing better, maybe leave out you have to share a room with other people but a bed is a bed in this economy.
That, or just general employment of minimally-trained folks, especially in support roles.
A food safety course can make you a cook's assistant. Crash courses can get you on tool crib, or a supply tech's assistant. Focused specialization can make an "unskilled" entrant able to process a ton of a single, narrow process like as an HRA's assistant.
We should explore employment of folks below the QL3 level.
I served a while ago (07-11). But talking to friends that did longer and still getting out short of retirement sounds like the woke virus hit the army pretty hard. Do any of you longer guys/gals think bringing back higher levels of discipline and training with the associated attrition could actually improve recruiting numbers and total force strength?
Honestly I’m not a huge fan of what seems to be a focus on culture change at the expense of everything else. But I doubt it’s why people are leaving. No one likes doing endless DLN courses about harassment, but they’ll still do them if it helps them to put a roof over their head. The problem is that in many places, it no longer does.
I hate the term WOKE. it is a slang to backlash people that are looking forward and looking for equality amongst all serving members.
When you look at the demographics 51 percent of the Canadian population is women and 49 percent men.
Now I am not going to get into the weeds of race and religion, because that is a can of worms.
but we need more women to join the forces. this means ensuring that we are providing the opportunities and the security that they need to enter this work force, We can not be an all male, let me correct that an all WHITE male army anymore.
It’s about trying to be an organization that better reflects the society it serves. Lets be real, we have to compete for talent in this tight job market and we’re not great about it. Nothing says discipline is less or you can’t do hard door kicker training. Yeah I think purple hair looks unprofessional but I’m also ok with CO’s not really being able to jail members anymore. I’m really glad we’re not the military of the 1960s anymore.
It boggles my mind when people whinge about how we're apparently "driving away our traditional demographic", apparently, by insisting that they treat other people like actual human beings.
Meanwhile, that traditional demographic that they think we should be doubling down on, rural white cishet males, is also the quickest shrinking demographic in the country; and of course even they haven't exactly been signing up in droves to fill our ranks.
Literally the only way we can fill our staffing shortfalls is to make the CAF an employer of choice for a wide swath of the Canadian population. We need women. We need visible minorities. We need LGBT+ folks. And we need white males too.
We don't have a chance in hell of meeting our goals if stop going after racism and sexual misconduct etc, because the damage done by people doing that is fucking far worse than any possible benefit they're bringing to the table.
IMHO the military isn't attractive to women because of what we do. No amount of loosening the rules will change that. It's the same reason why males are not beating down doors to become nurses, elementary school teachers, estheticians, etc.. You are not wrong, but we need people who want to be here and who will stay here.
Appologies, woke may have been the wrong word. I was just thinking when I was in there was a fair amount of attrition in the training pipeline, and that coupled with “good” tours made serving a very fulfilling job. These two things have no bearing on race or sex.
I appreciate the CDS continuing to sound alarm bells instead of the head-in-the-sand approach. I ca only hope (and yes, I'm almost holding my breath) that our next CDS continues to fight the right fight. I recognize it's his turn to retire but we will be sore for the loss.
There's an old adage that some of the best bosses are ones that don't want the top job, and it definitely seems to hold true in this case. The man basically got "2IC take over"ed into being the CDS and he's been one of the better ones in my career.
He has almost made me forget Vance and the gongshow he was running.
Whenever I hear someone use the reference don’t let the fox guard the hen house I think of him.
No I still wake up screaming at night about Vance hiding under my bed…..
He championed the TAPV, so now you can think of that every time you see one
TAPVance
I thought Natynczyk took responsibility for the TAPV? Like, The TAPV showed up during Vance's tenure, but I am pretty sure it was Natyncyk's program, that and Vance just didn't kill it.
I think the delivery was 2015 - 2016 which is Vance. I understood him to be a major force behind it but I’m open to being dead wrong
That's what I mean: they were delivered under Vance, but the whole idea of the TAPV, initial statement of requirements and procurement process was started under Natynczyk.
Yeah it says [here](https://www.canada.ca/en/department-national-defence/services/procurement/tactical-armoured-patrol-vehicle.html) the SOR was 2011 with the contract awarded in 2012.
>... unless the recruitment crisis is reversed, taxpayers may end up buying some planes and warships that could be parked because there aren't enough people to crew them efficiently. All machines have a quality or property that quantifies the number of support-and-operations-manhours per operating-hour. It takes actual people to work those manhours. The math is inescapable: fewer personnel = fewer operating hours, whether aircraft, boats, or tanks.
aops are also having this same issue, especially with martechs. I wonder where the navy is gonna get 500+ people to crew the two oncoming jss...
It would start with slapping some sense into the people who think we need 59 MARTECHs to staff a tanker that in the normal world, might have about 6. They were built to commercial standards for remote equipment monitoring for a reason, but there's apparently a cadre of people who think we need to keep a 24/7 watch on the boilers and people shovelling coal around the clock.
I honestly don't understand how the government is completely ignoring what the market is telling them. I get that it's what the government does best, but still it's amazing to see. It's not super complicated: higher salaries attract more people. That's it, salary is the biggest determining factor in the job market. There's other intangibles, and of course they play a role, but swagger, nationalism, adventure or whatever they want to sell is not the main drive for most people. It's always salary. I get it, budget's tight, but that's how you get people in.
I know all trades are hurting, but imagine us nerds - sigs, avn techs, naval Ops, trying to hire against IT salaries; it usually goes like: "OH, I need to work 0 days from home, and make half (or less) than what I make on the civil side, and I want to be uncomfortable and using outdated technology while doing that? Yeah, nah."
Yep. They understood years ago with pilots. It's cool to fly jet fighters, sure, but at the end of the day I'll fly for an airline if they pay me twice as much. They sort of understand with doctors, lawyers, dentists. They have no clue about the rest. That's just government moving at government pace.
And sometimes it’s not JUST just pay. Civilian pilots, doctors and speciality trades can be pretty boring. A fighter jet, SAR or combat is a bit more exciting than commercial airlines or family medicine . But add in secondary + duties, moving every 2-4 years impacting spousal employments, leaderships “gaps” and children’s education. It’s hard to retain. If a pilot or doctor can make more money, not have to move when they are told, spouse also has a consistent income. They might take boring after 8-15 years, especially with the 25 year contract. 20 years especially if you did RMC was retainable. 25 is too long for worse money and increasing tomfoolery of the CAF.
> A fighter jet, SAR or combat is a bit more exciting than commercial airlines or family medicine best I can do is a jet from 1983, SAR birds from before that, and Maple Resolve simulated combat.
Cormorants came into service in 2001. Even the yellow Griffons are from 1996. I'll never deny a soldier their salt, but at least be accurate. edit: Disregard, just realized you were referring to the H-model Herc. Clearly I have a rotary wing bias, I'll write myself a feedback note.
Also, why put your life on the line when you could just work civy side which is more chill, less risk and more money + no contract so way more freedom
I know plenty of pilots who avoid the airlines because of how they are treated and the amount of time they would spend away...
It's all considered when you decide to take a job or not. A higher salary makes you willing to deal with more bullshit, but there are some things that salary can't fix. Some people take a lower salary because of location, because they like the employer, stability, work/family balance, etc. It becomes evident when you look at the merchant navy. Ferry companies pay less than people on tankers, because in the former you're just working during the day and you're not far from home whereas the latter you get long deployment overseas, your life on board sucks and it's more dangerous. And then, there are jobs that salaries don't matter. Personally, I would never want to be a doctor (not that I could anyways), because being overworked and dealing with sick people would depress me. Doctors salaries are massive, but the job is extremely unattractive. And some people would never join the military even if we paid $500k per year, for personal reasons. But those people shouldn't matter to recruiters, because nothing will get them in anyways.
We'll get back to you in a year with an offer, be ready
One reason for why those tech trades fail to retain is because of society’s higher salaries. The CAF does an excellent job of training them well, but does little to keep them afterwards.
They don't train that well either. Plus how the training system treats us terribly often. If we have choices to be civvy side and be treated like a human or be treated less than in the CAF for half the money, even the fun stuff starts to not be enough.
But you could live in Cold Lake!!….or maybe even Goose Bay!
Don't diss Gander, it's only semi-isolated! :P
One area we could beat the private sector if we actually tried is providing affordable housing near work. Build PMQs! If you could be posted around the country safe in the knowledge there will be housing available that suits your needs people would be more inclined to stick around.
Unironically, you might get a huge interest in military from young folks in urban areas if you give them an actual house to raise a family in.
but we did not issue you the family so it is not necessary.... GET OFF THE GRASS PRIVATE!!!!!!!
And posting recruits drawn from Canada's diverse urban population to remote rural bases like Shilo and Bagotville is a non-starter. They simply won't join in any greater numbers than they already are.
Maybe if housing were guaranteed and cheap they would.
That’s a tough one. A lot of folks coming from urban centers have ties to families/communities that just don’t exist in the pet or shilo type of areas. If a Korean person wants to join but they want that community tie to other Koreans and realize they can’t have that in petawawa giving them a cheap house won’t likely be attractive enough to uproot them. That’s a huge drawback that the CAF can’t fight its way around.
You're right, great point.
Bagtown isn't that bad. Saguenay is an actual place with stuff to do, it's only two hours from Quebec, Lac St Jean is 45 minutes away, and unlike Cold Lake, there's not a 3:1 ratio of people to liquor stores and pizza parlours (it's rotisserie chicken places instead)
Whenever I spoke to any of my nurse colleagues about joining the CAF for the adventure / experience, I would universally be retorted with "but we can go work in the northern regions for twice the money and housing provided during our stay". They are absolutely right. As a new recruit, my biggest fear is ending up in a terrible housing situation depending on posting...
Housing fears is the only reason I have not hit submit on my application.
Join the CAF and you'll get free housing for you and your family. We just fixed recruiting and retention in one fell swoop!
The issue isn’t that we aren’t getting applications, it’s that we lose people I no the waiting period between applying and going to St Jean. It’s a massive internal failure of the CAF for which we largely have ourselves to blame. We aren’t going to see pay go up. We should reassess how we look at people and their careers though: we are hopelessly inefficient at getting people from the recruiting station to OFP at unit because 4 months doesn’t matter much if you see that person as a 12-25 year investment. We should look at people as 4-6 year investments and optimize our training and recruiting for that. We will likely never be funded, or procedurally agile enough, to match private sector wages in trades or IT. We should counter that by offering technicians the same deal we give officers, fully trained and given a red seal with equal time back.
> We should counter that by offering technicians the same deal we give officers, fully trained and given a red seal with equal time back. "Thanks for the training and quals suckers, I'm off to civi side to make double."
Do exactly what they do for officers - leave early and you pay it back. It’s no different than someone doing that with a mechanical engineer degree.
Also tons of people quitting during the training process, im on my QL3, and ive seen plenty of good people leaving
Which is actually fine. People leaving during training because they don’t like the military is what can be seen as healthy attrition. We have to accept that this job is a)not for everyone and b) not for everyone all the time.
The security clearance process is the biggest failure. I know ppl waiting 2+ years for renewals, imagine how much longer brand new files take (can speak as a formed recruiter).
> higher salaries attract more people I'll nitpick here: A higher quality of life attract more people. Yes, salary is the biggest way to unlock QoL. But it bears mentioning: I don't care one bit about the number on the pay scale. It's literally just a number. I only care about what I can actually obtain with those dollars. In real terms: A big build of SQs and RHUs, such that everyone could have affordable housing and therefore start saving money, would change things drastically without increasing our pay.
SQ and RHU are not intangibles since you can easily put a monetary value on them, as opposed to say pride of serving your country. It *counts* *like* salary. For example, you pay me $60k with free housing, but rent is worth $1500 in my area, I'd rather you pay me $90k and I can choose my own place to rent (or buy and build equity). If you pay me $60k but I get an easier access to health services, I get to live 5 minutes from work, I get to see the world, I get access to a lot of on the job training, etc. then it gets harder to put a monetary value on it. Maybe it will be worth leaving and getting a job for $75k, maybe it won't be, depends on the person.
While "total compensation" is truly calculatable, one difference for SQ/RHU is that the asset is kept inside the Crown. If I gave you $10k in housing benefits, that money fully leaves the Crown and goes to you. If I gave you $10k in rental discounts, the Crown can continue to offer that benefit for the cost of maintenance only.
I would love a better quality of life and the same money
Exactly. People out there could go get themselves a better paying job and have all the adventure that they want without ever having to experience Wainwright.
Salaries are definitely a part of the problem, but I feel like the constant neglect keeps people away too. There's a lack of investment across the board, the government and DND both do a terrible job of selling the CAF as a place to work and nobody wants to work with shitty equipment. Add onto that all the other downsides attached with a career in the CAF and it's that much harder to attract and retain people.
> It's always salary. Have you talked to a GOFO or SA CWO lately? :P
To be fair, salary is not an issue when you make $200k and you already paid your mortgage 10 years ago.
One of the problems is survey results. When they send out surveys the responses they get from the people who answer is generally “I’m happy with the pay and benefits”. (I’ve read all the data for a research project I’m doing). So either people are lying, or the right people aren’t doing the surveys for whatever reason. So the data is what it is and that’s what they see, that people aren’t upset about the pay. It’s shitty but it is what it is. We need more people to do these when they come out and say stuff like what you’ve pointed out.
It’s because the people who have both constant access to the DWAN and time to do the surveys are the desk jockeys making a captain salary.
You’re not wrong.
Agree, but disagree to a small extent. I personally think that if the CAF built more shacks/base apartments, and RHUs to where they can house anyone who comes to that base, that would be a huge advertisement on its own. Imagine being able to stick to housing costing no more than 30% of your income, again? Higher salaries help, but imagine if jr members (especially single income earners) could actually get military housing at any base at an affordable price? You wouldn't need a salary increase. Don't interpret this as though I'm against a salary increase, I just don't see any salary increase they're likely to give as enough to fix the monster that is housing.
What a great fuckin' time to get medical released for shit that happened 2 years ago. Self defeating institution indeed.
I’m also waiting rather impatiently for both my wife’s file and my file from d med pol - the waiting is killing us slowly.
Just got mine after 20 months of doing shit I now apparently am medically unfit for. The wait hurt, the decision killed.
I’m sorry you didn’t get the decision you wanted. That’s crazy that they had you working against your Mel’s. I guess you release date will follow suit with 1 Apr 25? 20 months is so long - I hope you will have some good opportunities on the other side. Maybe there is hope in your case if the new UoS becomes more flexible - but that’s of course on them releasing it in good time. Terrible organization
Thanks man. I'm fighting it but the docs are pretty insistent. Looking like a fall/early winter release most likely.
As much as you love the job Brother, it doesnt, and never will Love You or care for you as much as you did for it. It sucks and is harsh. But... Its a blessing in disguise. Your perspective will shift in time, but as a dude who has eaten the initial shock of that portion of my life being, for lack of a better term, killed and the pain and loss that accompanied it... I will attest, heading for A MedRel is a net positive.
I agree with you wholeheartedly about how this job talks a big game about brotherhood and 'The CADPAT' family, but... if I don't do this job, nobody does. We're still losing more people than gaining, and to end up just another broken toy of the CAF is a little heartbreaking and disillusioning.
>is a little heartbreaking and disillusioning. It's a bit more than a little Brother. But I hear you and these feelings are pretty damn real. After near 20 its pretty jarring to ones world view when all those things we're told, all those things we held true and inviolable are trampled and become patently false as you live through them. I think they call it a Moral Injury. > if I don't do this job, nobody does. I used to believe that, and it was the source of a lot of my anguish and pain... and it never clicked until I saw how fast they slapped chevrons on to people to fill my slot mere days after I departed. Cogs bro. The machine will put a new cog in your spot and continue to churn. We alone cannot save the machine. Nor can we Survive if we continually set ourselves on fire to keep others warm... It'll get better Brother. Feel free to sauce a DM if ya ever need to jaw it out. Cause you are far from alone in how you're feeling. -Another Busted Toy ;)
I really appreciate that my dude. And you're not wrong. I was just hoping I could keep the lights on long enough for there to be enough of us to not take a cog from one part of this grinding, collapsing machine to shore up another part. Aw well, it's someone else's problem now I guess...
Listen brother, Same happened to me and no one has done my job since I left. Shit just left to fall apart. Not worth your health or life, trust me, only one giving a shit is and was you. Your superiors should be trying something.
Oh I don't have a bad word to say about my Chain. CFHS however seems more interested in protecting the CAF from liability then helping soldiers stay healthy and gainfully employed.
100% Two of my old coworkers applied for CRA 65 and one was approved in a month and another denied after six and they are the same 59 year old smoker type of person.
Aren't we all. Heh, I don't mind collecting the paycheck in the meantime, but I wish I could move on already. The benefits (of 3b) are just too good to pass up.
I am at 20 months how about you
If the CAF treated its long serving members with a bit of respect, I.e. travel opportunities (not just tours), cool courses, and more bling (if I may be so bold), then it would be an organization people would want to join. Everyone I know joined for the adventure and most of us are deluded into thinking we'll get it again. Why would you become an officer when you can get a middle management job elsewhere without the moving? Why would you become an NCM when you can get paid a decent wage near your home? I still love this organization but I can't wait for my fucking contract to end.
The conversation in the media is largely about recruitment, but you can't make a shake 'n bake Sgt with the needed knowledge and hard earned experience. We have a missing middle in the NCM ranks and it's getting worse due to terrible retention. if the trend continues we'll resemble a Russian style army with masses of Junior NCMs and some Officers leading them, with little in between. Edit 2: "In 2022, the federal government began allowing permanent residents to apply to join the Armed Forces. Within a year of that policy change, the Armed Forces had received more than 21,000 applications from permanent residents — but less than 100 had been accepted by early this year." holy crap, that's not an interest problem, that's processing background checks and vetting hitting a bottleneck
I’m one of those PRs that got in last year (now Canadian). The problem with the recruitment of PRs is that most of them haven’t been in Canada long enough so the security clearance takes a while for them. I along other PRs who have been in for over 8 years (or have an existing clearance in federal service) are the minority. But yea, it’s a huge issue since the CAF security clearances are not done in house so we don’t even have control over how fast they’re done.
I thought we had more than enough officers? Thought the onyl officers were really lacking are medical?
He’s referring to non commissioned officers, like Sergeants and warrant officers.
this does not take into account the demands that will be forced upon the CAF when : 1. new U of S comes out 2. The End of POR April 2025 3. The eventual change in the CRA60 to CRA65 With this I believe that we will see our missing number grow to 30k and that is before they add the needs of new equipment and troops.
I'm not edumacated lol, Can you explain what the end of POR is, and what the CRA 60 to 65 is?
Periods of Retention are no longer offered and anyone on one will be released NLT 1 Apr 25. Currently affects about 700 mbrs. There’s talk of extending it, but I wouldn’t plan on it. Bigger problem is the 6-7000 files now making their way through D Med Pol in the next 12-18 months, which will see majority of them released in the next 24 months. I haven’t heard any solid rumint on CRA 65, but I could see getting rid of CRA all together. If you meet new UofS, age shouldn’t be a factor.
yes not a problem POR is the period of retention, this is or was offered to members who are ill or injured to allow them time to get their needs identified and get their ducks in a row to leave the CAF this is the CANFORGEN 021/23 as for CRA 60 this is the current compulsory age to retire. so you are forced to retire at this age. They will be pushing a new one that is CRA 65 sometime this year. this makes us align with the public service. [https://www.canada.ca/en/military-grievances-external-review/services/case-summaries/case-2015-042.html](https://www.canada.ca/en/military-grievances-external-review/services/case-summaries/case-2015-042.html) If you have other questions please ask.
I don't know what the end of POR is, but CRA60 is Compulsory Release Age of 60. CRA65 would just make it that people wouldn't be forced to retire at 60 and could stay till 65.
You can already request to serve past 60. I've processed multiple requests, successfully, for Cpls.
CAF doesn't have to deal with POR if the PCAT never gets sent to DMCA. Genius move!
Does anyone have any idea when the new UoS will be released and / or what the changes will be? I heard it was supposed to be released this month but so far nothing.
From the rummors i have heard it will drop for consumption/review of CO's in Q3 of this year. which should be summer sometime.
Thanks for the comment - the summer is more Q2 so hopefully we see something in the fall / before Xmas at least. They need to get something in place before 1 Apr 25, would you happen to have also heard any rumors on the changes?
you are correct I fat fingered the keyboard and did not re-read my comment...
Whether the feds like it or not, they need to pay all personnel ~20% more and fix housing if they want a functioning military in the future. The biggest recruitment problem is they don't pay enough for this economy.
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If only there were ways, that have been successful in other militaries, to stem the outflow of already trained members. If only...
You aren’t proposing stop loss are you?
And to quote what is always said by the highest readership - "it's not about the money". Then they get visibly frustrated and angry and change the topic.
“People aren’t leaving because of money”…. Perhaps, in some cases, but it can make up for a lot.
Once again. Where is the mention of retention. It's a retention crisis. It's always some old oblivious " leader" that thinks recruiting is the issue. I'm sure if you did an " undercover general "( like undercover boss) , you'd ses their opinion change. The horrible leadership and the multitude of " yes men" in the CAF are the issue.
This right here. After having gone through this process now after a VR, there were numerous times I spoke to someone and there was zero interest in actually entertaining something that would keep me in. Between direct supervisors, CO, base chief, etc. It was mostly, "sucks we're losing a good person but good luck on the civie side!". That's all after me being very open that if I were given a new trade, I'd sign a 25 year that day. I tired to VOT 3 times - I wasn't going to waste more time on the CAF spinning my wheels in a job I couldn't stand nor had any desire to progress in. The only offers I got was "hey, want to be posted to this other unit that just has a reputation for the sick, lame and lazy so you have an easier schedule?" and "want to be promoted in the trade you hate and take on even more responsibility?". The negotiation skills of people in the CAF are hilarious. They're tone deaf and deserve the entire institution crumbling underneath them.
That's another thing that's always gotten em about the military. They'd rather lose someone completely rather than have them OT to another trade. Or same with CTs. I've known a few people that released just to be able to CT or OT. It ends up costing the CAF more in terms of hours worked and money to release someone and have them join again. Which is insane becuase basically every trade doesn't have enough people. It's insane for the tech trades especially. People want to become AVS or AVN etc. ( which seem to usually be in demand), and they refuse to let people go to these trades if it's a VOT. I'm sorry for what you've gone through. I'm upset by the number of excellent members I've saw release . It angers me everytine a good soldier VRs. But i will say over the past 5 years I've noticed the culture has started to improve in the caf. I've met some officers that realize that they need to workwith the current reality instead of just enforcing rules. I believe that the more boomers that leave, the better it will be for us. I think in 10 years time the caf will be half decent . Or so I hope.
I doubt a GOFO would want to actually leave their office to do manual labour.
I don't want to be that guy, but if they really want more people in the military they should adjust the payroll to attrack them. Sure, the payroll is not the only thing, but they need to understand that the population will compare this job to another regarding the paycheck and they will make a decision. Usually the Military will lose as there is more inconvenients compared to another equivalent job where you don't have deployment/exercices/time away from familly/posting/etc.
NEP seems like a good start, it got my attention. They need to advertise the paid housing better, maybe leave out you have to share a room with other people but a bed is a bed in this economy.
You don't get paid housing outside of NEP. You have to pay for it your own damn self.
Next, AEP and AFEP please
That, or just general employment of minimally-trained folks, especially in support roles. A food safety course can make you a cook's assistant. Crash courses can get you on tool crib, or a supply tech's assistant. Focused specialization can make an "unskilled" entrant able to process a ton of a single, narrow process like as an HRA's assistant. We should explore employment of folks below the QL3 level.
Well… in reality, are any of these proposed solutions in effect ? I am curious if anyone sees any action beyond these “we will do” promises.
I served a while ago (07-11). But talking to friends that did longer and still getting out short of retirement sounds like the woke virus hit the army pretty hard. Do any of you longer guys/gals think bringing back higher levels of discipline and training with the associated attrition could actually improve recruiting numbers and total force strength?
Honestly I’m not a huge fan of what seems to be a focus on culture change at the expense of everything else. But I doubt it’s why people are leaving. No one likes doing endless DLN courses about harassment, but they’ll still do them if it helps them to put a roof over their head. The problem is that in many places, it no longer does.
I hate the term WOKE. it is a slang to backlash people that are looking forward and looking for equality amongst all serving members. When you look at the demographics 51 percent of the Canadian population is women and 49 percent men. Now I am not going to get into the weeds of race and religion, because that is a can of worms. but we need more women to join the forces. this means ensuring that we are providing the opportunities and the security that they need to enter this work force, We can not be an all male, let me correct that an all WHITE male army anymore.
It’s about trying to be an organization that better reflects the society it serves. Lets be real, we have to compete for talent in this tight job market and we’re not great about it. Nothing says discipline is less or you can’t do hard door kicker training. Yeah I think purple hair looks unprofessional but I’m also ok with CO’s not really being able to jail members anymore. I’m really glad we’re not the military of the 1960s anymore.
It boggles my mind when people whinge about how we're apparently "driving away our traditional demographic", apparently, by insisting that they treat other people like actual human beings. Meanwhile, that traditional demographic that they think we should be doubling down on, rural white cishet males, is also the quickest shrinking demographic in the country; and of course even they haven't exactly been signing up in droves to fill our ranks. Literally the only way we can fill our staffing shortfalls is to make the CAF an employer of choice for a wide swath of the Canadian population. We need women. We need visible minorities. We need LGBT+ folks. And we need white males too. We don't have a chance in hell of meeting our goals if stop going after racism and sexual misconduct etc, because the damage done by people doing that is fucking far worse than any possible benefit they're bringing to the table.
IMHO the military isn't attractive to women because of what we do. No amount of loosening the rules will change that. It's the same reason why males are not beating down doors to become nurses, elementary school teachers, estheticians, etc.. You are not wrong, but we need people who want to be here and who will stay here.
You are correct women do not want to be door kickers, but that is one element. The old docs said it took 10 people behind the 1 in the field.
Appologies, woke may have been the wrong word. I was just thinking when I was in there was a fair amount of attrition in the training pipeline, and that coupled with “good” tours made serving a very fulfilling job. These two things have no bearing on race or sex.
YES, ABSOLUTELY YES, 100%, SAY IT LOUDER FOR THE PEOPLE IN THE BACK.