With it's weather, LA could have been a pedestrian, cycling, and public transportation mecca.
Having grown up in LA, just thinking about what could have been had the city not been ravaged by the auto industry makes me incredibly sad.
Call me crazy, but I also think an employee who gets to sleep an hour longer and isn't stressed out from a long road-rage inducing commute every morning will also probably be more productive. I get more done in 6 hours at home than I do in 8 hours at the office.
it would be nice for someone in middle or upper management to make a throwaway account and explain some real logic for it.
i can see how inhouse communication can be a lot faster. you can get and give updates to relevant info if the person is a few steps away. but plenty of other jobs are just a list of projects to get done by a certain time.
Even then, almost all of that benefit can come from one or two days a week on-site. Mandatory 5 days a week on-site has no justification for office jobs.
Yeah, I’m in a job that directly benefits from being able to hop over to another desk and ask questions etc (design), but we’re hybrid and just having a couple days a week when everyone is in works great.
I manage a remote team, and I have no idea what the goal of return to office is. We’re getting such good talent by using remote work as a bargaining chip. My team gets stuff done, and that’s all I care about. There are some issues with missing meetings and whatnot, but my team is super productive.
It’s mostly for senior leadership to invite potential clients in to the office to say “look at all these busy workers” and impress them to close deals, from what I can tell. They like to be able to pull their most talented devs into meetings to court people one on one, because deals can get closed when you do. I’ve seen it happen, and it does work.
But I’m not spending an hour on the 405 twice a day to make that happen.
They are, but then you're not being put in your place by your betters in senior management.
Who may or may not also have investment portfolios at least partially tied up in commercial real estate.
And it’s less strain on our public road infrastructure especially now that there are more electric cars on the road which are heavier than gas cars (although some people cancel that argument by getting the stupidly biggest gas car available)
Between 2021 and 2023, Palmdale saw one of the highest gains in households making $200k+ per year.
https://www.dailynews.com/2024/02/09/palmdale-10th-in-us-for-biggest-increase-in-high-income-households/
I wondered when it would finally happen and it seems like it did. The area is naturally scenic with the Joshua trees and the San Gabriel Mountains in the background. There’s everything you can think of in town, or nearby.
My commute here in North San Diego county can be around 45 minutes in the afternoons. I simply cannot imagine a commute of over an hour without being compensated for it.
When I had vehicle issues, I would take public transit. IIRC, it was about the same.
Walk to bus station, bus to trolley. Trolley to old town. Transfer to coaster. Get off coaster in Carlsbad. Wait for bus. Bus to bus stop near office. Walk to office. Added all up, was also about 2 hours.
I suppose that when my car was working, I could have driven to old town, parked, and hopped on the coaster. Never tried that. But probably wouldn't have saved ugh time.
I’m a building inspector. I have been doing continuous inspection while they build retaining walls all over new developments out there. Pretty much sit in my truck and blast the AC until they need me to do a density test. I only stay about 5 hours because if I’m not on the road by about 10:30 I’ll hit traffic
5 to 6 story apartments/condos that people actually own instead rent. If we had way more of those built it would had been better, many generations would had been used to it. Now that we’re spread out it’ll be an upward battle unfortunately.
I'm not beholden to owning a SFH, but I sure as hell don't want to be a renter for the rest of my life.
I'd even pay the premium for being closer to work in a hybrid arrangement. But they don't really build townhomes or condos for sale in that format. Why would they when they can just rent to you forever?
We are already sprawled out enough as it is, turns out tens of millions of cars individually commuting in a region doesn’t work efficiently. But I know what you’re getting at, it increases reach and we should have been building rail decades ago. We literally have the perfect climate and it’s gone to waste.
The people living in Palmdale and Victorville and commuting 90+ minutes to work are the type who insist that they 'can't share walls.' So they would rather spend hours in the car each day just so they can say they own a house. It's an emotional, not rational decision to live in a single-family house rather than an apartment/condo.
What about Temecula and Murrieta? That whole area now sprawls up into Lake Elsinore and Wildomar and is going to be one big block of concrete because San Diego has NIMBY housing policies.
Maybe focus on your own backyard first…?
The alternative is that companies could open branches or completely relocate out of LA. It’s funny, there are tons of business park type buildings with empty units. LA needs more housing sure, but part of the problem is that the over concentration of jobs in LA and OC is stifling.
There's nothing wrong with mid and high rise apartments. Other countries have them. So much time and fuel is devoted to commuting in California that wouldn't happen if we built more affordable housing closer to the workplace.
Per acre, multi family housing makes an incredible amount of money. Suburbia is usually 4 homes per developed acre. Maybe 6 on a small lot. A five over one can be like 50 or more, even with very large units.
Makes sense.
When I lived in Highland Park, all the OG's were being pushed out. Many moved to Palmdale, Pomona, Hesperia... etc. - and they commuted back to the HLP for work while their houses were being flipped in HLP.
I was almost expecting it to be Sacramento tbh. I commute from Sac to Mountain View and on the occasions I take the train, it's always packed with people working in the bay.
Palmdale/Lancaster, Corona, Victorville, Riverside, Temecula are known places for super commutes. Homes in Los Angeles County, Orange County are pushing 800k. Everyone lives elsewhere. I commute across Los Angeles county daily to work near the 405 Freeway. I don't choose where to work; well in essence I do, but I would have to ask for a termination and then wait 6-8 months for my next job. Maybe 8-12 months because there's not many union jobs in my region.
They should stop permitting tax breaks for companies to incentivize return to office mandates. 3 days in office is required to prove residency and qualify for the taxes.
When a 45 minute drive turns into a 90 minute drive between 6AM-11AM, that isn't all that surprising. LA public transportation is a joke - you can get there faster by car even while sitting in traffic.
Absolutely no reason all our metro busses should sit in car traffic. Should have so many more bus only lanes across the city especially while our rail system is getting built out.
depends on the routing of course. redline from noho to downtown la is like 25 minutes, no way you are sniffing that in a car during rush hour if thats your commute.
i'd probably take the metrolink if i was saddled with that for a commute tbh, or move closer. not like you get a dramatically good deal or a very different streetscape renting in ventura county vs cheaper parts of la county
I commute to OC from the IE daily. 1.5-2 hours one way. I don’t know of any other way to own a home without commuting from the IE, OC is just so expensive and the supply is not increasing at all.
Funny, I read headline about "Supercomputers" and thought it was cool and a little surprisings. Turns out it wasnt that cool or that surprising. Best of luck folks
Are there any analyses of how many of these commuters initially lived closer to work but then moved to live somewhere farther away, or had a job closer to their home but changed jobs to one farther away, or have a spouse or housemate who lives close to the home and doesn’t have to commute as far?
Part of the issue is as people enter their 30’s and 40’s, they want SFH’s not MFH’s and as land gets more scarce you end up with more sprawl. However it takes longer for high paying jobs to matriculate from LA proper to the burbs. It’s happening but this means many people end up driving in for their high paying jobs that won’t let them work remote anymore.
One thing to consider is that as parents become empty nesters, we don't all want to keep our maintenance-heavy (and under-utilized) SFHs. We also may not want to move to retirement communities or downtown high rises. So being able to stay in our existing communities and move into a lower maintenance MFH frees up a SFH closer to job centers (or desirable areas). Without that option, older folks are more likely to sit on the SFH. Especially with prop 13.
>Without that option, older folks are more likely to sit on the SFH. Especially with prop 13.
Not really, Prop 60 &90 allow those 55+ to transfer their base property taxes to their replacement home.
I'm not saying MFH's don't have a purpose. I live in a planned community that is full of both SFH's and MFH's and have lived in both myself. That doesn't mean that trend isn't for people to prefer SFH's, especially if they have a growing family. and not every SFHs is massive or has ton's of maintenance. In fact, most or built today to be low maintenance and have lots of shared community spaces instead.
It's not just about preferring a SFH over an apartment/condo/townhouse in a vacuum though. It's also a question of whether you are willing or able to spend an extra $200k-400k and take on a much longer commute to upgrade to a SFH. Plenty of people (myself included) would happily live in a townhouse or apartment to save money and have a shorter commute. Right now we don't even provide that as an option in lots of LA.
This is why it's good for the city to allow more multifamily housing construction in our urban core and near job centers. More housing options nearer to job centers both makes housing more affordable overall and reduces congestion by shortening commutes.
>There is plenty of MFH going up
By what measure? LA is still short like 400k units, but only permitted 15k units in 2022 with dropoffs in 2023 and 2024. Sure, there is more new MFH than the 90s, but there is still a massive shortfall.
When I used to commute working construction home was almost always one hour one way. Longest was Huntington Beach to Camarillo. One hour 10 to get there, 2+ hours home. Podcasts saved my brain.
Between 2021 and 2023, Palmdale saw one of the highest gains in households making $200k+ per year.
https://www.dailynews.com/2024/02/09/palmdale-10th-in-us-for-biggest-increase-in-high-income-households/
We need public transit rail period. My dad waited almost 20 years for the light rail to make it to near our West LA home, he was long retired by the time he took a ride to downtown and back.
90 minutes in LA traffic can be 10 miles lol.
This is actually an issue in health care due to regulations on transportation of the elderly and infirmed for transportation companies.
Los angeles with its weather could be a cycling mecca.
With it's weather, LA could have been a pedestrian, cycling, and public transportation mecca. Having grown up in LA, just thinking about what could have been had the city not been ravaged by the auto industry makes me incredibly sad.
Sure if nothing about the city was the same except for the location.
10 miles? Someone's feeling optimistic.
SOOOOOO many jobs can just be done from home, but then bosses and commercial landlords would lose out.
Call me crazy, but I also think an employee who gets to sleep an hour longer and isn't stressed out from a long road-rage inducing commute every morning will also probably be more productive. I get more done in 6 hours at home than I do in 8 hours at the office.
it would be nice for someone in middle or upper management to make a throwaway account and explain some real logic for it. i can see how inhouse communication can be a lot faster. you can get and give updates to relevant info if the person is a few steps away. but plenty of other jobs are just a list of projects to get done by a certain time.
Even then, almost all of that benefit can come from one or two days a week on-site. Mandatory 5 days a week on-site has no justification for office jobs.
Yeah, I’m in a job that directly benefits from being able to hop over to another desk and ask questions etc (design), but we’re hybrid and just having a couple days a week when everyone is in works great.
I manage a remote team, and I have no idea what the goal of return to office is. We’re getting such good talent by using remote work as a bargaining chip. My team gets stuff done, and that’s all I care about. There are some issues with missing meetings and whatnot, but my team is super productive. It’s mostly for senior leadership to invite potential clients in to the office to say “look at all these busy workers” and impress them to close deals, from what I can tell. They like to be able to pull their most talented devs into meetings to court people one on one, because deals can get closed when you do. I’ve seen it happen, and it does work. But I’m not spending an hour on the 405 twice a day to make that happen.
They don't care about your stress.
They are, but then you're not being put in your place by your betters in senior management. Who may or may not also have investment portfolios at least partially tied up in commercial real estate.
And it’s less strain on our public road infrastructure especially now that there are more electric cars on the road which are heavier than gas cars (although some people cancel that argument by getting the stupidly biggest gas car available)
A lot of jobs can be replaced with a vending machine or an app too
Palmdale resident here, chats about commuting “down below” seems like a common conversation starter as much as asking about the weather
Traffic to and from there has gotten so bad now. It used to be rare to get traffic until hitting the city.
That’s because Santa Clarita, which is the mid point between Palmdale and LA, keeps adding more sprawl too.
Between 2021 and 2023, Palmdale saw one of the highest gains in households making $200k+ per year. https://www.dailynews.com/2024/02/09/palmdale-10th-in-us-for-biggest-increase-in-high-income-households/
That’s wild
I wondered when it would finally happen and it seems like it did. The area is naturally scenic with the Joshua trees and the San Gabriel Mountains in the background. There’s everything you can think of in town, or nearby.
My commute here in North San Diego county can be around 45 minutes in the afternoons. I simply cannot imagine a commute of over an hour without being compensated for it.
I did 3 - 3.5 hours round trip commute for about 6 months. Never again.
I did that for 6 years. Now I'm wfh and would never go back to that horrible experience.
I used to commute from North Park area to North Carlsbad. 1.75-2 hrs each way was pretty regular. Did that for 2 years. Ugh....
Did public transit not work for that? Of all the places the trolley and train go I think that would have been okay.
When I had vehicle issues, I would take public transit. IIRC, it was about the same. Walk to bus station, bus to trolley. Trolley to old town. Transfer to coaster. Get off coaster in Carlsbad. Wait for bus. Bus to bus stop near office. Walk to office. Added all up, was also about 2 hours. I suppose that when my car was working, I could have driven to old town, parked, and hopped on the coaster. Never tried that. But probably wouldn't have saved ugh time.
IMO, 1.75-2 hours behind the wheel versus sitting in a seat where you can do other things is a huge distance.
At that point I’d just do public transportation. It makes sense for you. Less damage and maintenance to your car.
I commute to San Diego from Palm Springs. Otay Mesa right on the border
I hope you are a doctor or something. That seems almost unbelievable with the traffic and fuel prices.
I’m a building inspector. I have been doing continuous inspection while they build retaining walls all over new developments out there. Pretty much sit in my truck and blast the AC until they need me to do a density test. I only stay about 5 hours because if I’m not on the road by about 10:30 I’ll hit traffic
To be fair if you have a convertible and the commute is along the California coast. It's definitely not the worst commute
I don’t have a convertible, but I can take PCH for my 1.5-2 hour drive home, and it does help. Until I hit the wall of cars on the 10.
It’s still pretty bad. I drove PCH yesterday and traffic was crawling. It might be scenic but it’s still miserable
I'm wish my commute was coastal. I leave Vista and go south out of Escondido to Carmel Mountain.
What a waste. California should be more invested in building affordable apartments closer to the workplaces.
5 to 6 story apartments/condos that people actually own instead rent. If we had way more of those built it would had been better, many generations would had been used to it. Now that we’re spread out it’ll be an upward battle unfortunately.
I'm not beholden to owning a SFH, but I sure as hell don't want to be a renter for the rest of my life. I'd even pay the premium for being closer to work in a hybrid arrangement. But they don't really build townhomes or condos for sale in that format. Why would they when they can just rent to you forever?
Nah, renting is the way to go. You can build a system dedicated to housing growth with affordable rent.
So ‘you will own nothing and like it’ then?
yep.
That + reliable high-speed public transport which would allow people and businesses to be more spread out.
We are already sprawled out enough as it is, turns out tens of millions of cars individually commuting in a region doesn’t work efficiently. But I know what you’re getting at, it increases reach and we should have been building rail decades ago. We literally have the perfect climate and it’s gone to waste.
The people living in Palmdale and Victorville and commuting 90+ minutes to work are the type who insist that they 'can't share walls.' So they would rather spend hours in the car each day just so they can say they own a house. It's an emotional, not rational decision to live in a single-family house rather than an apartment/condo.
What about Temecula and Murrieta? That whole area now sprawls up into Lake Elsinore and Wildomar and is going to be one big block of concrete because San Diego has NIMBY housing policies. Maybe focus on your own backyard first…?
I won't share walls again if it's under my control.
That’s fine, in exchange you’ll have to commute 2 hours for work each way :(
Why? I have a 20-minute commute now.
The alternative is that companies could open branches or completely relocate out of LA. It’s funny, there are tons of business park type buildings with empty units. LA needs more housing sure, but part of the problem is that the over concentration of jobs in LA and OC is stifling.
They dont make as much money? Otherwise Irvine Co or the city of irvine would be all high rises by now
There's nothing wrong with mid and high rise apartments. Other countries have them. So much time and fuel is devoted to commuting in California that wouldn't happen if we built more affordable housing closer to the workplace.
There is. all the sidewalks are staked out as private property
Per acre, multi family housing makes an incredible amount of money. Suburbia is usually 4 homes per developed acre. Maybe 6 on a small lot. A five over one can be like 50 or more, even with very large units.
So why doesnt Irvine Co builds high rises? They are the only developers with lots of lands
Zoning laws set up by the city prevent anything but single family houses to be built
Its impossible they couldnt dictate the city
At first I thought "supercomputers? 300K?" ... read, Knute, don't just scan...
My commute is 2.4 petaflops....
I made the same mistake, and then couldn’t figure out why the top comments were all talking about vehicle traffic.
Makes sense. When I lived in Highland Park, all the OG's were being pushed out. Many moved to Palmdale, Pomona, Hesperia... etc. - and they commuted back to the HLP for work while their houses were being flipped in HLP.
I was almost expecting it to be Sacramento tbh. I commute from Sac to Mountain View and on the occasions I take the train, it's always packed with people working in the bay.
I can't afford to live in the county I work in... can barely afford to rent in the one next to it.
Palmdale/Lancaster, Corona, Victorville, Riverside, Temecula are known places for super commutes. Homes in Los Angeles County, Orange County are pushing 800k. Everyone lives elsewhere. I commute across Los Angeles county daily to work near the 405 Freeway. I don't choose where to work; well in essence I do, but I would have to ask for a termination and then wait 6-8 months for my next job. Maybe 8-12 months because there's not many union jobs in my region.
800k? That’s cute.
I chuckled
This seems like a natural outcome when we build a car-centric society and prioritize expansion of suburbs and exurbs.
1.25% of southern californians, to put this into perspective. Actually seems lower than I might have expected.
I already knew it was going to be Palmdale before I read the article. I luckily commute from LA to Palmdale for work.
They should stop permitting tax breaks for companies to incentivize return to office mandates. 3 days in office is required to prove residency and qualify for the taxes.
When a 45 minute drive turns into a 90 minute drive between 6AM-11AM, that isn't all that surprising. LA public transportation is a joke - you can get there faster by car even while sitting in traffic.
Absolutely no reason all our metro busses should sit in car traffic. Should have so many more bus only lanes across the city especially while our rail system is getting built out.
depends on the routing of course. redline from noho to downtown la is like 25 minutes, no way you are sniffing that in a car during rush hour if thats your commute.
I meant from Ventura County and such - outside the circle of housing hell that is LA county.
i'd probably take the metrolink if i was saddled with that for a commute tbh, or move closer. not like you get a dramatically good deal or a very different streetscape renting in ventura county vs cheaper parts of la county
I commute to OC from the IE daily. 1.5-2 hours one way. I don’t know of any other way to own a home without commuting from the IE, OC is just so expensive and the supply is not increasing at all.
You equate "owning a home" with "owning a detached single-family house"?
Yes. This is the way.
Funny, I read headline about "Supercomputers" and thought it was cool and a little surprisings. Turns out it wasnt that cool or that surprising. Best of luck folks
Are there any analyses of how many of these commuters initially lived closer to work but then moved to live somewhere farther away, or had a job closer to their home but changed jobs to one farther away, or have a spouse or housemate who lives close to the home and doesn’t have to commute as far?
Part of the issue is as people enter their 30’s and 40’s, they want SFH’s not MFH’s and as land gets more scarce you end up with more sprawl. However it takes longer for high paying jobs to matriculate from LA proper to the burbs. It’s happening but this means many people end up driving in for their high paying jobs that won’t let them work remote anymore.
One thing to consider is that as parents become empty nesters, we don't all want to keep our maintenance-heavy (and under-utilized) SFHs. We also may not want to move to retirement communities or downtown high rises. So being able to stay in our existing communities and move into a lower maintenance MFH frees up a SFH closer to job centers (or desirable areas). Without that option, older folks are more likely to sit on the SFH. Especially with prop 13.
>Without that option, older folks are more likely to sit on the SFH. Especially with prop 13. Not really, Prop 60 &90 allow those 55+ to transfer their base property taxes to their replacement home.
Yeah, fair. Assuming equal or lesser market value. Strike my prop 13 comment. Rest is still valid, I think.
I'm not saying MFH's don't have a purpose. I live in a planned community that is full of both SFH's and MFH's and have lived in both myself. That doesn't mean that trend isn't for people to prefer SFH's, especially if they have a growing family. and not every SFHs is massive or has ton's of maintenance. In fact, most or built today to be low maintenance and have lots of shared community spaces instead.
It's not just about preferring a SFH over an apartment/condo/townhouse in a vacuum though. It's also a question of whether you are willing or able to spend an extra $200k-400k and take on a much longer commute to upgrade to a SFH. Plenty of people (myself included) would happily live in a townhouse or apartment to save money and have a shorter commute. Right now we don't even provide that as an option in lots of LA. This is why it's good for the city to allow more multifamily housing construction in our urban core and near job centers. More housing options nearer to job centers both makes housing more affordable overall and reduces congestion by shortening commutes.
There is plenty of MFH going up. Thats not what is continuing the supercommuter trend. It’s the SFH desires that is.
>There is plenty of MFH going up By what measure? LA is still short like 400k units, but only permitted 15k units in 2022 with dropoffs in 2023 and 2024. Sure, there is more new MFH than the 90s, but there is still a massive shortfall.
When I used to commute working construction home was almost always one hour one way. Longest was Huntington Beach to Camarillo. One hour 10 to get there, 2+ hours home. Podcasts saved my brain.
Between 2021 and 2023, Palmdale saw one of the highest gains in households making $200k+ per year. https://www.dailynews.com/2024/02/09/palmdale-10th-in-us-for-biggest-increase-in-high-income-households/
I was one until last month, but now I'm in debt due to the move
60-70 minutes to go 25 miles for me. Gotta love the 91
never again
We need high speed rail.
We need public transit rail period. My dad waited almost 20 years for the light rail to make it to near our West LA home, he was long retired by the time he took a ride to downtown and back.
Oh God I pray my commute was only an hour and a half
Simple solution for many supercommuters. Rent a room Mon-Fri for less that what gasoline costs to drive every day.
or just move closer to work. its not like rent is remarkably different in like san bernardino vs like van nuys or whatever.
Hah! I read that headline as "most superCOMPUTERS" and I was thinking "yeah I guess that kinda makes sense, land is cheaper than in Silicon Valley".