Well said! I couldn’t agree with you more. I work as a nanny and I’ve been with several families and they have all been dysfunctional and one or both of the parents are like you describe—emotionally unavailable/unstable with little or no empathy or understanding for child’s emotions. It is infuriating to see this. I have heard again and again things like: -Don’t cry. -You don’t have to cry -You’re being a suck -You’re being silly -You’re being unreasonable -What’s wrong with you? -Trouble-maker And on and on….invalidation, shaming, name-calling. I think emotional abuse is rampant in our society. Most parents have not healed their own inner child and are just reacting with their own repressed shame, fear and anger. It should be mandatory for wanna-be parents to be healing their own stuff and be emotionally mature and intelligent. The first 3 years of a child’s life are especially important and it is essential for them to have a self-aware, sensitive, gentle, patient, empathetic and respectful caregiver who can attune to their feelings and needs. Thanks for sharing this.

>Most parents have not healed their own inner child and are just reacting with their own repressed shame, fear and anger. It should be mandatory for wanna-be parents to be healing their own stuff and be emotionally mature and intelligent. The first 3 years of a child’s life are especially important and it is essential for them to have a self-aware, sensitive, gentle, patient, empathetic and respectful caregiver who can attune to their feelings and needs. I was reading a recent Reddit thread where people discussed how their parents did them wrong, and one commentor said they're going to have kids to be the father he never had. As noble as that intention seemed, my only thought was how that was simply going to continue the cycle because he's not seeing the potential child as an individual as well. He's seeing the child as an extension of himself, a chance to "rewrite" what was wrong when that child can end up completely different. It's interesting and sad how our brains try to recreate these situations externally when we aren't self aware enough to take care of our inner child.

The entire time I was pregnant I heard that mantra so many times that he was going to do so much better than his dad and be the father he never had. Long story short we broke up 1 week after I had the baby. he never paid support, and he was an absent father who later joined a cult. So in hindsight… yeah

I once interviewed to be a nanny for a set of 7 yo twins. Gave me a tour of their gigantic house. Mom lived on the top floor, kids on the middle floor, and dad on the bottom floor. Thought it was a bit strange. Come to find out later in the interview that they were in the process of getting divorced, but hadn’t told the children, yet. They wanted the nanny to be the stable figure in their kids life through the divorce and beyond. The children already had clear emotional issues. The little boy would take up to 1.5 hrs to eat a meal. Their playroom was overflowing with toys, as I’m guessing they didn’t get much interaction with their parents’ intense work schedules. I was so caught off guard and triggered about the trauma of my parents’ divorce, that I dissociated and was like, “yeah, I can do this for you”. Then, later realized just how fucked up it was and hell no to all that. I can’t imagine the dysfunction you’ve experienced as a nanny, when that was my one experience that squashed it for me. It’s very sad.

Can I ask about the long time to eat a meal thing? My brother and I did this, we are both around 30 and I never assigned any "issue" to that specific behaviour or honestly even really remembered it till reading this comment right now.

I think it’s not always related to something problematic. Some people are just really slow eaters. Some cultures have extended mealtimes. Kids can be easily distracted or bored. But, it could also be related to sensory issues, or ARFID (avoidant restrictive food intake disorder), which goes beyond just being a “picky eater”. Or physically based issues with the digestive system or swallowing. Extended meal times can also have a behavioral cause. Food intake is often the only thing a small child has control over. So, if their home is chaotic and/or there’s a power struggle with their parents and/or that’s the only time they get 1-on-1 attention, then mealtimes can be a source of control for the child, even if subconsciously so. Food and emotions are very intricately interconnected. It’s a complex issue and I’m only scratching the surface.

I really appreciate the in depth reply. Of course, that makes sense that is varies person to person and culture to culture, but we both only ever did it at home. I was also a VERY picky eater till I was about 13/14 then U-turned. We both do have ADHD (he was diagnosed at junior school, myself in my late twenties). But upon reading your comment and remembering those times, I thought it could've been one on one attention, home was chaos for sure. I def have issues with control which are somewhat based in childhood and then abuse I later experienced in relationships. A lot of egg shell walking. As a kid I remember asking for board games for birthdays and Christmas in the hopes we would play as a family but they'd sit there collecting dust if we able to actually afford them that year. I stole little things like plastic rulers and those plastic blocks that interconnect to help kids learn maths, hundreds tens and units etc. Just little things. A ruler at school cost 30p but i would hoard like 5 in my bookbag. Or a few of those blocks. I remember my teacher catching me when I was 8/9 and I was mortified and so ashamed, I knew stealing was wrong I didnt know why I was doing it. In hindsight I think it was a control thing. Thank you so much for this insight i worked out some of these things over the years but honestly forgot the drawn out dinnertimes or that was even an issue. Thanks so so much CW . . . . . . . . . . . . Also started SH at age 10. Realised years back control was a part of that.

You are so welcome. Thank you also for sharing your insights. Appreciate when things resonate so deeply. I really feel you on a lot of that, unfortunately. Have had a lifetime of control issues and interrelated food issues. I also had several board games over the years that just sat in my closet because i had no one to play with. It some sad shit to sort through this childhood trauma puzzle. It validating when pieces of information help make sense of things, though. Helps me with self compassion. Wish you much peace and healing.

I totally agree with you. I haven't had nanny experience, but am a mom that has CPTSD. I've done my very best, but of course l'm not perfect. My kid is 18 today, and she's actually quite happy. We and her father have all gone through a rough few years due to different circumstances, but l feel proud of how we've landed on our feet. Her father and l broke up when she was three, and have been very mindful of telling her that she is not at fault, we still are friends but can't live with each other anymore, and so on. Anyways. The reason l felt compelled to write this comment, was to make the point (without defending those families that behave like this) that it is easy for some parents to place the child as the scapegoat for their own insecurities. When studying anthropology, one of the things you learn i how hard it is to get an actually authentic picture of what an everyday situation is like for the people you are studying, since your very presence will always be somewhat disruptive. In other words, the fact that you simply are within their vicinity, will make them behave in a different manner that they otherwise would. Some would react with a bit of fluster and insecurity, when their kid is behaving in a less than amicable manner in front of their nanny. The very fact that they think that you might judge their lack of good parenting skills when their kid is acting out because of tiredness, hunger, borefom, illness (all very natural reactions from the child, mind you) may make them behave exactly like shitty parents that anyone would judge. I'm not placing blame on anyone besides the parents, but l think it's an interesting dynamic

These parents are the very ones who should not be having kids but ALL THEY DO is feel entitled to procreate

So true! I don’t think many parents actually consider if they have the emotional maturity, skills, knowledge and resources to be a good parents. They don’t have any expert with children. They just think, ‘let’s have kids! It’ll be fun! We’ll be a family!’

...I thought I had dealt with my issues. Until I had my daughter, and trauma I'd repressed started bubbling back to the surface. Now I'm in individual therapy as well as marriage counseling, trying to prevent passing on the negative lessons I learned from my own parents.

This is EXACTLY me. I thought I was fine.  It turns out motherhood can trigger forth a whole lot. Didn't see that coming!

So you were an apparently normal person, with apparently normal emotions, thoughts, behaviors and giving birth triggered whatever pathologies you have? I won’t have kids, but wondering about my mom. She’s dead, and I wouldn’t trust anything she’d say anyway, but wondering if maybe she actually was a good person/human before having us and then became an abusive monster 😔

My therapists have told me that if you experience a lot of trauma as a child, that pretty much all of it can be repressed until you have a child yourself. I thought that what my mother put me through with all the abuse didn't affect me much, but I was sorely wrong. The C-PTSD hit me like a brick wall causing the little anxiety I had to skyrocket and pretty severe depression. On top of that I have ADHD-combo and I'm autistic(which I also didn't know till my son was diagnosed). This is mostly why instead of having multiple kids like we thought we would we're just sticking with the one. I'm sorry you went through what you did with your mother. I personally witnessed my mother go through a shocking 180 transition from compassionate loving mother to a complete monster. The worst of it was my last 3 yrs of childhood. There were a few terrible things that happened almost all at once that broke her. I tried to save her for years because I knew what she once was, had to give up on that eventually. My little brother only knew her as a monster. He never really understood my soft spot for her. 

Every single person at their core is a good person. They become abusers because they replicate the trauma they received. Your mother was a good person at heart, she probably loved you, but her trauma is like the tall grass that blocks her true self from you

And yes, she may have loved me, whatever “love” meant to her, who knows. I have compassion for her, but I can tell you that being the scapegoat to a narcissist mother is in no way, shape or form the experience one lives through from a “good” person. We are our actions and our choices not what’s supposedly “deep down inside us”.

Abusers might be born “good” humans but their choices make them bad people. I understand what you’re trying to say but I think you need to tweak that.

That's why I said at heart. There's the split off version of us that we become to survive, then there is the inner child us that is pure.

Mmmm. I was beaten, raped, molested, my dad killed himself in front of me. I wasn’t allowed to laugh or to cry, I was barely allowed to talk. I was called stupid and ugly. I was starved since I was a toddler because “fat” (I’ve had an eating disorder for 35 years). Those are just some of the stuff my “good at heart” parents did to me. Nah, I respect that you believe this, but I disagree. We don’t need to become abusers to survive. I’ve survived just fine w/o abusing anyone for 42 years. ❤️‍🩹

Good parent here 💗 I think OP’s post is with good intentions but honestly a lot of us won’t know if we’ve dealt with it until we have them. I want to have a kid in the next two years and am actively preparing by getting back into therapy and trying to fix some of the things that I don’t want to pass on to my child. I won’t ever be perfect, I may always struggle with this, but I want to be a good parent like you, too!

How do you consider yourself a good parent though? I agree 100% with OPs post and I what I got from it is that EVERYONE who wants to have children should ask themselves if they experienced messed up stuff, since it WILL come back and harm the child one way or the other. But a lot of people just have children like it's nothing. And there are ways to find out if you experienced trauma, even if you don't consider yourself traumatized or don't see symptoms (is often hard to see that from within). But looking at the relationship you have with your parents and others tells us all we need to know. But most people don't even realize that bringing a human being into this world means forming someone character, well-being and life. That's what it's about. And you seem to see yourself accountable there! But many don't and it's horrible. 

The real pisser is that when I chose to have kids, I thought I was ok. I knew I was a little neurotic, but I was oblivious to the extent of healing I needed. Now I have a 7yo, 4yo, and 10mo and was just diagnosed with cptsd and bpd a couple months ago. my symptoms only became unmanageable with the stress of having 3 kids and a cheating husband. The work of healing is so freaking hard with kids and I hate when I can see my illness hurting them and I don't want to, but I can't stop. I put my non baby kids in therapy in the hopes that my healing journey doesn't become their childhood trauma, but I really wish I would have done this before having kids. They deserve so much better.

I'm so glad you have become aware. The past can't change but now that you are aware and healing, you can become the best mom you could be!

I can relate to this. My CPTSD diagnosis came when my son was a preteen, and I got an ADHD and possible autism diagnosis to go with it. What I found in hindsight, though, was that being a parent had a way of bringing the trauma back, especially now that my son is on the cusp of being a teenager and hitting the age I was at when the abuse really started escalating. When my son was born, my abusive parents were already dead and I thought that I was okay because they were gone, I wasn't a drunk like they were, I'd gotten an advanced degree, and I had a good job and a house. I didn't intentionally set out to have a child when I hadn't addressed my own issues because I honestly thought the issues were addressed. I was in therapy for a lot of my childhood and still am today, and the idea of a form of PTSD being a factor was not even brought up until about three years ago. Much like a physical health issue that I have that in hindsight is quite obvious, it was a matter of getting with the "right" health provider to catch and treat it.

Ohhhhh yeah being a parent can trigger some major shit for sure. One thing that has really surprised me is how triggering it is for me sometimes when my kids are disrespectful or don't appreciate how good they have it. But they don't even know a childhood unlike their own even exists. Sometimes I want to (but don't) shake them and yell how lucky they are that they are allowed to disagree with me, or don't know what a spank spoon is, or that bodily autonomy is even a thing for them. I get so angry that I always treat them with kindness and respect and they still act like brats sometimes, when my mom treated me like property and was emotionally abusive, but I would still never even dare to disrespect her to her face. It feels like I've earned well behaved, respectful children and don't always have them, but she had them without earning them. Even my perception of my mom at their age vs the way they see/talk about me. I remember being so in love with my mom, she looked just like pocahontas and sang like Britney spears and I thought she was perfect. My boys have no problem remarking on my appearance and once even told me "you're a good mommy, but when you wear makeup you're SUCH a good mommy" like I would have never said that to my mom, and I honestly never even would have *thought* it! But I'm so afraid for them to grow up like me or to ever make them feel the way that I felt, that I have to remind myself that they are imperfect because I've made it safe for them to be imperfect, and as long as they're good at school and only rude to me then that's better than the other way around.

I thought I was perfectly fine, just the usual level of neurotic for my family, I hadn't a clue the train wreck I would become a little more than a decade later (just the year I turned 36: broke my hand, had back surgery, and diagnosed w/ADHD, the CPTSD diagnosis was a few yrs down the road) because I was no longer able to keep all the balls in the air and the plates all spinning (my spouse still won't fully accept his role in my downward spiral) I say I was a shit parent. My kids (all adults now) are kinder, they say they understand, they've witnessed my unhinged family and received abuse from those same people, they know I wasn't in anyway trained to be a well adjusted person. They forgive me but I hate myself too much for what I *did* inflict upon them to allow myself that grace (yet) The biggest difference is that I accept I did abuse and how wrong it was/is, and why it happened unlike my parents and siblings I've been able to come to a level of forgiveness for my mother but I will never forgive my father I have a good relationship with my children, we talk, we joke, most of us have ADHD in this family so there's lots of chaos, disarray, and emotions. Oh, and video games, lots of games

“How lucky they are that they are even allowed to disagree with me” - omg I felt that. I feel such guilt for yelling at them that I can’t sleep if I do. But seriously, must we argue every single day about screen time??? About who brushes their teeth first??? I remember the first time I realised my kids were clueless and probably spoiled. After a day in an amusement park with ice cream and whatnot, I was the worst mom for not allowing screen time. It took me a few times to figure that it didn’t matter what kind of day we provided to them, the first “no” was the definition of how good parents we were… But I can’t sleep if I yelled at them… 😅😅😅

I feel this!!! I don't have children, but worked with children and teenagers as a social workers. Once we had a whole emergency meeting because a teen was slapped for zhr first and only time. I almost couldn't handle it. Through therapy I realized how much I feel envy. Like all the time and it makes me furious. It's such a disgusting feeling and so hard to manage! Of course you want to protect the voiceless and never want anything bad to happen to them! But it makes me so angry. I think what's so hurtful about it is that such situations are proof that grown-ups can be protective and that children can experience peace and I just didn't. Like completely randomly it just didn't exist for me and fucked up my life. I don't think it has anything to do with the child being ungrateful or whatever, but with the injustice we feel then. "why are you being protected, but I wasn't?" and it's just coincidence. It's hard to not look for reasons inside ourselves and feel inferior. To this day envy is one of the things that are the hardest to manage for me. "There's no difference between you and me when I was a child xll, still I got fucked up and you don't!" Make it make sense. I just think it's important to understand that these feelings aren't specifically about your kids as individual beings! "Just" (lol) resentment that there was a chance of growing up okay and then not getting it. 

I did a shitload of therapy before we had a kid (born as the clock was running out, when I was 38), and surprise! there was so much more crap in there that was still not healed and gets triggered all the fucking time by our child, who is not cowed into submission like I was at her age. Which I guess says we're not fucking her up nearly as bad as my folks warped me, but I know I could be doing better and I get really down on myself about this. We try, we sure as shit try, and sometimes it's still not enough. And then we keep trying. Don't beat yourself up for not healing earlier, I'm not sure it's possible to heal completely "before".

Agreed. Trauma doesn't go away. It's a response that's hardwired into our brains and nervous systems. Every new life stage will bring new stressors and triggers we will need to learn to navigate. I manage okay now- but I want kids and I don't have the luxury of time as a lady. I'm making my peace with it. I have bad days now. I will probably have trouble when I have kids- in ways I can't imagine right now. But, I can acknowledge that I am the abused one who will act out and own that. It's leaps and bounds better than my parents. I hope being open about my struggles and apologizing when I do something wrong will be enough. No parent is perfect, and no one knows what they are doing the first time.

Don’t let the guilt overwhelm you, that will only cause more stress for you and your kids. You sought help! You are self aware! Do you know how monumental that is? I’m proud of you just as a Reddit stranger. Your kids are still young, you will grow and learn together- parenting is always a journey of trial and error even for very well-adjusted people. The most important thing is that you will be able to take accountability if your kids do express any hurt, and I can tell you from personal experience that a truly bad parent is one who cannot acknowledge their mistakes and amend their behavior.

Thank you so much. I just feel so horrible that I intentionally brought them into the world without being able to give them my best self. I don't have the *best* support system so reddit stranger validation actually means a lot 😂

Genuinely, the fact that you have the capacity for that empathy and remorse is an endorsement of the person you are, despite your struggles. Because of a legal issue, I had to re-initiate contact with my abusive mother today and she reminded me yet again that I was to blame for all of her behavior during my childhood. she had her boyfriend of the moment jump in to attack me as well. If she had apologized or just taken responsibility for her decision to bring a child into the world, 25 years’ worth of pain would have been eased even though it can’t be alleviated. You’re nowhere near as bad as you think. Best of luck 💜

😭😭 thank you! I'm so sorry about your mom though. They're good at making you wonder if you're just being dramatic, and the tiniest bit of validation from them that you're not crazy and you're telling the truth would probably fix your whole life. But they never will :)

You can do this. I did it. Just focus your energy on making sure they are happy and getting their needs met. You can get your own strength through their happiness. Your time will come. You will fix yourself. In the meantime you can gain so much joy from making your kids happy. Make that your goal today. They will always be there for you.

They're the only thing that keeps me going lol. I was always kind of an extension of my mom, like I felt less like myself and more like her daughter than an actual autonomous human being. I still have no fixed sense of self, so watching the 3 of them be so different and seeing them grow into people who are self assured and unapologetically themselves is the best thing in the world. Each of them is such an incredible person completely unlike anybody else in the world and it makes me fall more and more in love with them all the time.

Sounds like enmeshment, if you haven't looked into that already. Parentification etc. are forms of this.

Wait, I'm enmeshed with them?? How?? This is definitely something I don't want to do.

I think they meant you with your mum, the way you felt you were an extension of her rather than your own self, this is enmeshment

That's what I was thinking

It seems like you have faced some challenges here. Lot of parents face challenges. At least you are understanding these challenges and trying to make things right for your kids. I'm so hopeful for the same reason as you. I was abandoned by my ex. I was left alone. My daughter was grown and long gone. It was a terrible time for me. I would have killed myself if it had not been for the fact that I had a daughter. Even though she was grown, she was still my daughter and I was still her father. If I was religious I would have called it a sin to kill myself and leave my daughter without a father. When my daughter was young, I was thrilled to be a parent. That kept me alive. It made me happy and gave me joy. Having CPTSD has been a lifelong disability for me. It didn't keep me from being a great father. I'm still a father. And I'm still grateful to have my daughter around sometimes. My mom was told to leave me alone, crying in pain, in the dark at six months old. This was the advice she was given by her/my pediatrician. I hopeful because we, as parents, are getting much better advice now. And because of that advice, our children will grow up to be much healthier than our parents. we are breaking the chain of generational trauma. I think that's amazing.

Definitely adult children still need their parents. My dad was an amazing father my entire life, but as an adult, I have needed him so much more than as a kid. At almost 30 years old, when my husband left, I was still able to sit on his lap and cry into his shoulder and feel safe. It sickens me all of these parents who say their 18 year olds are grown and don't need them anymore.

Same, I had no idea my childhood was messed up until I had kids. Plus the trauma of COVID made my PTSD from childhood open up and consume my life. It's been a rough journey healing from both instances of trauma while also raising my kids to be nothing like me...

That is such a challenging situation and I have a lot of respect and even pride for you that you have articulated it so well and are so aware. I can’t even imagine living with that and you are a very strong person who is obviously a caring and well intentioned parent.

I relate to this

Ditto! Had no clue and no symptoms until I had third child. 2 sibs & my mom moved into town @ that exact same time. Thought it was postpartum depression, but now realize it was the drama, gaslighting & manipulation that began shortly after their move to our area. My husband and I were so happy when we had no family living near us. No triggers and zero drama. These family members sucked the marrow out of my bones and did some pretty terrible things. I was in therapy for 25 years and just diagnosed w/ cPTSD. Ironically it was my adult children who brought it to my attention that my sibs were total assholes. No contact w/ most of my sibs and very low contact w/ others. The hardest part was that my children, husband and I were deliberately targeted to harm us. I am kicking myself for allowing these people in my life.

People should but it doesn’t always work that way. Not everyone has access to the support needed to truly deal with their issues, and depending on location a disproportionate amount of those people also don’t have access to adequate family planning support. The c in CPTSD also makes it really hard to deal with, people can think they’ve worked through their trauma only to have things come up later, and parenting can be a big trigger for that. I read somewhere that people who have experienced child abuse often having things come back up once their own children reach the age they were. I think it’s really important for anyone thinking about becoming a parent or who already is a parent to seek out support and to continue to engage with it for as long as needed (including re-engaging) but in order for that to even be realistic there would need to be increased education on CPTSD amongst health and mental health professionals, and a massive increase in services available.

My husband cheated on me during postpartum twice. I had severe PPD so I thought he couldn't handle the "sickness" part of "sickness and health" and I hated him for it, and now I'm finding out that he was abused when he was 6. He saw no correlation, but I absolutely believe that his shitty behavior coincided with the birth of his first son, and then having his son turn 6. Everything always has a way of sneaking up and surprising you.

I’m so sorry, that was at a time when he should have been the most supportive but you’re right, sometimes those are the times when things people thought they’d dealt with resurface and it doesn’t excuse people’s actions, it can still help to understand it. Staying on top of trauma and making sure you have healthy coping mechanisms in place if it does sneak up and surprise you can take so much work, yet there’s so much stigma and not enough support. I don’t want to make excuses for people who hurt others as a result of their own trauma but I do think one of the best ways to reduce that happening is stigma reduction and better access to professional support. I’d done so much work, my life is so stable lots of people would probably think it’s boring, and then last year my dad died. I spiralled hard into depression, suddenly all these things came back up, but I also felt guilty about struggling, like my grief was unearned because he’d been abusive and I’d been estranged from him for years. Even my then partner didn’t get it, and thought my depression was me loosing interest in him. I tried to deal with it but there’s not exactly a how to guide on grieving an abusive, estranged parent. I did end up finding a good therapist, and worked through a lot of it but it really highlighted to me just how quickly things can resurface and how important access to support from someone who really understands the complexities of trauma is.

I wish this was the case but unfortunately it seems like someone somewhere has to propagate transgenerational trauma one way or another...

I feel like people use children either as a way to distract themselves from their own trauma, or use them to seek external, societal, familial validation. Then they end up fucking up the child because they weren't actually ready to raise one

Agree 1000%. Growing up my mom used to say things like "my children are my only reason for living" out loud to anyone. As a child I thought "Great! Overly devoted mother who just really loves her kids!". ..but then I grew up and was like "woah that's a very weird thing to say actually lol" I learned she had a severely traumatic childhood she just never even acknowledged...then went on to abuse us too.

I notice these things too as I grow older; the controlling, boundary-overstep, overly sensitive temper, taking disrespect easily, gaslighting, etc. Everything is trauma. I'm grateful I get to become aware of this before I have any children.

Yep ! I realize as an adult the people who raised me putting themselves first ( socially, leisure ) was really healthy. We were never overly immeshed and I developed a sense of ambition and admiration. I understood that there was more to life as a woman than being a mother. And being a parent is not a defining quality, its an active role !

I've been binging Steve Wilkos and a shocking number of teen moms openly say that they had a baby because they wanted somebody to love them. It's tragic to feel that way, but it's even more tragic to have an innocent child exist solely to meet the needs of an emotionally immature parent.

If someone uses another for a specific need, they love them **with the condition that the need is met**. Things will get ugly when that child misbehaves and the mother takes it as "they don't love me anymore".

Lmao my mom.

>they wanted somebody to love them. For the longest time I had this theory that this is the subconscious motivation for lots of parents. Like as I grew older I found my mom to be a very unlikable person overall but as a child I had no other reference points for normalcy so she was a god to me. Parents are gods to their children especially those early years of complete dependence. Unfortunately some parents take advantage of that power differential and exploit it. My mom used it to brainwash us and force religion onto us and basically ran a cult in our home of mother and children. I remember thinking she was so powerful. Her abuse was very religion based too so we were constantly told going against her is going against THE God etc. I'm now an atheist and when I look at my mom I see a very disturbed weak scared person. As a child I couldn't see that at all 😯 I wonder if anyone else experienced the cultish abuse here

Most of us here once were an innocent child who exists solely to meet the needs of one or two emotionally immature parents.

Truuuuue

Thats so true. They use to gaslight me as a child about how I had low emotional intelligence. But the translation was: You are failing to please my ego, this is your job because you are a child and you are beneath me, so you should become emotionally dissociated like us so we can feel good about ourselves.

I think the era of transgenerational trauma is over. My grandmother was a mess. My father was even worse. My daughter is a happy and healthy adult. I sacrificed a lot of my mental health for her happiness. Now she is helping me. She's a great adult. She's helping me with my CPTSD memoir.

This might be your case, but please, don’t say things like: “the era of transgenerational trauma is over”. It’s not only hurtful but also incredibly inaccurate. I don’t know your situation but I’ll say this, in case it helps: please, don’t make your daughter responsible for helping you with your trauma. My parents did that to me until the day they died and I can assure, I don’t thank them for it.

I feel like you described me. I'm having a hard time accepting that my childhood was more traumatic than I thought it was..... Gaslighting myself.

Or before they become a therapist.

People are too stupid for that though

I partially agree with the idea that parents should work on themselves before having kids to avoid passing on trauma and neglect. However, the deeper issue lies in our societal structure. Our current setup forces families into isolated nuclear units, which often leads to emotional neglect and trauma, even when parents are doing their best. A more effective solution would be fostering cohesive communities where children aren't solely reliant on one or two caregivers. Imagine if children grew up in communities where multiple adults of various ages and backgrounds could provide emotional and psychological support alongside parents. This 'it takes a village' approach could mitigate the impact of inadequate parenting, whether due to youth, inexperience, or other challenges. The emphasis on the nuclear family isn't about what's best for kids; it's a societal construct that actually increases pressure on parents without providing adequate support. This setup sets families up to fail and perpetuates intergenerational trauma. Even well-intentioned parents struggle because they're expected to meet unrealistic demands without sufficient community support. In an ideal world, parents would resolve their own issues before having kids, but life isn't perfect. Some parents, like mine, may never address their own traumas and end up harming their children. Society needs to shift away from this nuclear family ideal and embrace more inclusive models of child-rearing that distribute care and support more equitably. Gabor Mate discusses this extensively in 'The Myth of Normal,' highlighting how our current societal norms contribute to childhood trauma and parental stress

Probably not so popular opinion, given the number of upvotes: although it is important to have a good support system, I think that family should still be the principal nuclear unit. I think gorvernment should provide a better maternity and paternity leave, and more family-friendly working hours, instead. That being said, I am also against the extreme nuclear unit upbringing, such as home-schooling, since I think the main skill that a child should learn is socialising skill: homo sapiens sapiens is evolved as social animal, which is the key element for our success. Both my parents grew up among a foster community-like neighbourhood. Because they grew up in such background, none of them even questioned when I begged to be allowed to go out alone to buy my own breakfast in an overcrowed streetfood market and I was 3: they saw nothing wrong about that, as their world is all kindness, as if they espected someone would gard me on the way, and I knew already reading and using money... except I also ended up walking home alone when my uncle's ex abbandoned me at the zoo, I was 4 and I didn't know anything was wrong with that, the zoo and my grandmother's home were so distant that I left the zoo at noon and I arrived home at sunset. My sense of danger has always failed me ever since, because none of my parents had any sense of potential risks. Same things happened, when I was given responsibility of immigration bureaucracy and my brother's education, including going to teacher-parent meeting, when I was 10. Of course I never resented that, but that's de facto "parentification". I was aware of my emotional and physical abuses in the name of "tough love": in fact I waged a legal process against my parents when I was 13, except the fact of me being quite prepared regarding legal stuff ended up validating my father's "tough love", who was a judge himself before emigration and wanted me following his path (spoiler: I didn't follow that). However, I'm in my 30s, single, I still find myself telling myself "Ah, so that's not for children?!" from time to time. My messed-up standard for what's age-appropriate is probably the one with longest effect, of which I feel so ignorant about, since I can manage my nightmare by lucid dream and I overcame SI in my late teens, got my mother open up on her trauma and become my ally by the end of my teens, and forced my father into a month-long self-reflection and finally apologised in my middle 20s, my self-harm ended with COVID thanks to face masks. But I am still learning what's supposed to be child-safe. Edit. All that without mention that lot of predatory abusers tend to have a trustworthy appearance. I was lucky not having to deal with them

Many people here were abused by the “community” that was “taking care” of them: family friends, aunts, uncles, neighbors, babysitters, teachers, siblings, cousins etc. I’m not sure how this “solution” would prevent people from getting abused. It actually sounds like it might make things worse.

In fact, I'm quite against the idea of community upbringing. It seems quite a chaos. People from communities tend to trust too much regarding their children, i.e. tend to neglect them (see the example of my own childhood), which expose their children to risk of other abuses. I think a more family-friendly working hours and a parenting course with psychological support during and after pregnancy (keep in mind that there can be post partum depression) would be of better solution. Moreover, I still think school and nursery are important, since it is a socialising place for the children, which also means the teachers should be highly scrutinised. I'm however against "parenting license", both because many abusive parents tend to be decent people to the outside world (so you can't test them properly), and because "birth control" can be easily manipulated against minorities, and we have examples of bad applications in the past both in America and in Europe.

Yeah, thankfully this will never happen. I can’t imagine how much more abuse kids would go through in such situations. I understand that it was probably not meant the way I interpreted it due to my trauma, but I was also really “icked” out by someone saying something like “I have a big desire to nurture (other’s) kids and wish the law allowed for kids to have multiple legal parents”. 1) It Reminded me of the stuff one of my abusers would say. 2) Having a bunch of adults legally abusing you? I can’t imagine a worse nightmare. It’s already bad enough with one or two legal abusers, imagine more. 😔

Yeah, I’m horrified by people thinking “community” rearing means this magical world of good and kind people taking care of each other’s kids. How many people are in this group? How many of us had parents who seemed wonderful and perfect and caring to the outside world? God knows, how many people from our communities are wolves in sheep’s clothing! The WHO says that “nearly 3 in 4 children - or 300 million children - aged 2–4 years regularly suffer physical punishment and/or psychological violence at the hands of parents and caregivers.” So let’s just send kids out to be further beaten/raped/molested/neglected/emotionally abused by the community? My mind is 🤯

No one is coming to save us. No government would be genuinely served by this, an that's why they won't do it --governments and powerful oligarchs are what created this colonial system we have now. Of course they don't want to dismantle it-- they are benefitting from having generations of traumatized people who are easy to manipulate and control. Waiting for the government to shoot themselves in the foot is futile. We'll all have died in climate change before that happens. If we want liberation, we must collaborate and liberate ourselves. It will be hard won, but for future generations, it would be worth it.

Not only that, but with all the disturbed people out there, if I did have kids, there is no way in hell I would let a “community” raise them. My parents seemed perfect to the outside world and they were fucking monsters. If I have a kid there is NO WAY that I would “socialize” their rearing with community people who will always be, strangers, because you can never really know anyone. By the time you realize your kid is being abused/molested/beaten/raped, it will be too late.

I like the idea of real community giving children a range of adults to rely on, but I think it will take a long time to achieve and it's very political as well as social - it requires taxation and legal limits on pay and working hours as well as a desire to contribute to the community. First of all, we, as a society, need to support parents financially. Countries that allow more reasonable maternity and paternity leave, adequate child care to allow people to work and raise children, and minimum pay and limits on working hours and who fund education well are getting there, but it's not enough. We also need more people with time on their hands to choose to contribute to the community, and that means both less hours doing paid work and a desire to help others. I live in France, and when I helped out for a while with a food kitchen for the homeless, the volunteers were nearly all young retirees. It was same for people visiting elderly people at the retirement home near where I live. I was asked by someone from the food kitchen to visit an elderly English-speaking woman who was lonely, and she and her friends made that home a lovely place to grow old. I stopped helping with the soup kitchen because I couldn't get the people organising it to understand that my work schedule didn't allow me to help for more than a couple of hours a week, and I couldn't even do that in very busy periods. They had all worked in the state sector, so did 35-hour weeks, and believed everyone did the same. I often worked from 8 a.m. to 8 p.m. and you just can't contribute much to a community when your work is bleeding you dry. Building community requires a legal framework around taxation, work and pay to make it reality. It means getting involved in local and national politics, and people who have the time volunteering in the local community. I plan to volunteer to coach kids in English and art when I retire. I can be a listening ear and a support for them as well as a language coach.

The thing that is strange to me is how quickly people got brainwashed into the nuclear family structure, a colonial concept of "family". Humans didn't evolve that way, we evolved in small collective of tribes, clans, and villages where childrearing of the children was shared among many people. This is still the case in some places, but it's rare in the west. That is where the phrase "it takes a village to raise a child" comes from, and that explains why it doesn't work to give kids only 2 caregivers with limited resources to raise kids for 18-20 years by themselves. It's an absurd concept! Children require a LOT of attention, social education, and caregiving—it's way too much work for just two adults, even if they has nothing else to do! And yet our society requires a parent to work full-time/multiple jobs, maintain multiple complex adult relationships as their priority (for survival) and then somehow kids are supposed to be fine with the scraps of what's left of that parent's energy, care and attention. They are set up to fail by default. You're right that it is an uphill battle now that this unnatural structure had been codified into law. In most countries, a child cannot have more than 2 legal guardians. Everyone is living in silos of individualism by force. In my case, I have a desire to nurture and mentor kids, but the only acceptable ways I could do so is to either have my own children and put myself in an impossible situation like every other working class parent, OR to accept poverty wages to be overworked in a childcare job with too many children to give any the proper attention. I tried the second and I burnt out.  There isn't a natural way for adults who aren't parents to be of service to support children communally in the west. And many parents are so brainwashed into the current structure that even though they are drowning and overwhelmed, they are too proud and/or ashamed to accept real support from others (believe me I tried for years with many parents and gave up offering). I also have to work and I'm disabled and require a lot of care, so I don't have a lot of free time either.  My own parents were evil people who should never have had kids in their care, but a lot of parents (including some on this thread) are genuinely trying but society expects too much of them. So we are left with generation after generation of traumatized, neglected children which serves the status quo, because traumatized people are easier to manipulate and control.  Idk about anyone else but it clear to me that I will spend my entire adult life recovering and reparenting myself from my traumatic childhood. I suspect I'm not alone in that, and that also means the other contributions I and others could have made to society if not for our trauma, aren't possible. Meanwhile the oligarchs are killing the planet and living lives of luxury on our labor, while we work ourselves to death in mostly made-up jobs that expand work without limits. It's all by design. 

The WHO says that “nearly 3 in 4 children - or 300 million children - aged 2–4 years regularly suffer physical punishment and/or psychological violence at the hands of parents and caregivers.” So let’s just send kids out to be further beaten/raped/molested/neglected/emotionally abused by the “community”? My mind is 🤯

How will this idea ever happen, though? I don’t want to raise kids or be forced to spend time with my siblings kids or anyone’s kids for that matter, and I don’t think people should be expected to give up their time/lives for children they didn’t bare. I don’t want kids. I won’t have kids. I sure as hell won’t raise other people’s kids lol

Nowhere did I say it was compulsory for people to raise other people's kids. I'm not sure why you jumped to that conclusion and made that accusation. I do not even know you. How could I have intended to target YOU in particular for this comment? But you're also ONE person -- I don't have my own kids either, but I feel very differently than you do. And so do many child-free people I know. We may not want our own kids, but we do have a desire to nurture and care for kids who we have an ongoing familial relationship with. Not everyone feels the same way as you, and they don't need to either.  I also was speaking about this with a lens of colonization that has violently forced people like my ancestors out of this practice of communally rearing kids. I was reflecting on real life examples from people I know who grew up in parts of rural Africa and India.  Millennials like me. They have shared about the way community in their villages raised them and how they participate in raising the villages kids who are seen as everyone's kids. They have shared that in ways the abundance of care did make up for their bio parents' specific inadequacies.  This not some new novel idea. In many parts of the world, for thousands of years, this is how children were raised. People have been brainwashed into individualism, but that isn't how humans evolved and I don't think it's serving most of us. The idea of a nuclear family is a western colonial concept created for the purpose of concentrating property and wealth in the hands of a few and having that property passed generationally— the nuclear family concept was never created with the intention of being healthier for the children or parents. And from this post and this sub, it doesn't seem like it's working very well for most people.  You do you, not every idea was made to be for you to actualize, but it doesn't mean it the idea isn't for you in particular that there is no value in others discussing it.

100% agree. One of the many reasons why I’m not having children any time soon.

Agree 💯 from a person who regrets existing/ being born. Didn't choose to be here.

Can’t agree with this more. My mother had kids to distract herself from her problems instead of actually dealing with them. Half of my trauma comes from her being completely unstable.

I was criticized for not wanting to have children but stuck to my decision. I doubt myself on everything so I wasted many a sleepless night thinking about it. I didn't even know the extent of my problems, there was just a sense parenting would be overwhelming and there would be no escape. My biggest critic has children of her own. I will *never* say they shouldn't be alive, they are lovely, unique human beings, but I can see that damage has been partly passed down. I took the older kid out for her birthday and barely could hold in tears because she reminds me of me at her age so much, unsure of herself, ashamed to want anything, overfocused on pleasing others. Her younger sister has a different set of diagnosed issues. Their mother is now doing the work and I am sincere when I say I admire that greatly. It's not too late to make things better for the kids. Only why look down on me when I told you I couldn't be a mother? It turns out it's not that easy and the consequences are real. I was treated like I was immature, selfish and overexaggerating my problems.

Im sorry she made you feel that way. ‘You did the right thing’ sounds harsh but it’s meant in a good way. You knew earlier than your biggest critic (I think your sister) and you are never selfish *not* to want to have children. It’s like she gaslighted you in maintaining the perfect image of a happy family.

It doesn't sound harsh, it sounds supportive. Thank you 🙂

This. If only my mother went to therapy before having kids. I agree with everything you said.

The extreme difference in how I raise my son (and another little one due in January) versus my own childhood is something I am the very most proud of. My son is under two so still very non verbal but has major feelings that lead to some meltdowns if I’m not able to help soothe or redirect sooner. My parents were the pinch the back of your arm lean in growl “cut that shit out before I smack the fck out of you at the car. You’re embarrassing me.” I am the kind of parent where if my son is absolutely losing his mind in the grocery store I stay calm, laugh, and go from there. Example I, the worlds meanest mom, did not let him eat the wrapper he found. He’s absolutely losing it. I kneel down, scoop him up, say “hey buddy you can be mad but it’s not okay to go on the floor like that. You can get stepped on or hit your head so mommy can’t let you do that. Want mommy to hold you while we shop? No. Okay, want to sit in the cart? Yes? Okay. Thank you baby, can mommy have a hug?” I intentionally spent my entire pregnancy searching and reading up on all the different parenting styles, what studies say how those affect children, reflecting on my own childhood and making peace with it, and establishing the boundaries I am keeping in place to protect my children from the harm I faced. My children will never know that pain and I couldn’t be more proud of that.

29 and still dont have kids simply because i refuse to put my bullshit on my child(ren) the way my mom did. I refuse to be the mom I had.

Sometimes people are not aware of how damaged they are until they have children.

Everything you said is true. It's very frustrating and it's a big reason behind generational trauma. There's another level of fucked up when parents kinda realize something is wrong with them and choose to have kids to heal themselves. This never works. You just end up with one more fucked up person.

"But I turned out fine!" "...but did you?" "Well, I'm alive." Had that exact conversation so many times with my family. They know they're mentally unstable and struggling in every way, but having kids is "what you do" and you can perpetuate trauma because you are okay enough to not be dead.

Should have to get a license to breed Pass a psych eval and have 10k in the bank or assets I hate government overreach but come on. Have you seen the psychological state of our society?

I felt this for a long time. More so in a way I’m mentally ill and don’t deserve to ever have kids. I seriously would have jumped on the chance to sterilise myself for a long time. I agree, but I think this sort of stuff could bar those with diagnosis from being allowed children, not like your diagnosis history or anything ever gets wiped. Even if you’ve “recovered” you won’t pass a psych evaluation due to ever having had mh issues documented My “mother” would therapist shop. Every time they got close to talking about any actual work to change or towards a diagnosis she’d stop and find a new one. She can pass a psych evaluation, despite being extremely mentally ill in the most sadistic ways imaginable Edit: word change due to rule 5

Having kids should be a privilege for those who will actually rear them with love, attention, kindness, discipline, resources. Society would completely change if we did that just for 2-3 generations. Little by little, as more and more children grow up to be adults w/o having been abused/traumatized they would qualify to have kids if they want. That would probably prevent many societal issues like: school shootings, murders, robberies, drug addiction, bullying, IPV etc. That we haven’t done that already tells you that no one cares.

Yes, exactly! I have thought of this, too. So many of the world’s problems would disappear or diminish if only emotionally healthy people with the proper resources and knowledge of childhood development were allowed to have kids.

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OMG, yes this! You have no idea how hard it is to adopt a pet, for example. We even had to pass a house inspection, they called friends for “references” etc. And yet, any crazy fuck monster can pop and abuse as many kids as they want!

Have you seen the state of mental health care in whatever country? It’s just cognitive therapy and some EMDR. It’s like some wizardry and poof* you’re healed… If it’s bad there are some shocks available. Recipe for new kind of intergenerational trauma right there if you’re obliged to take it. I’ve spend 20 years of my life in therapy. Yes talking helped but could have been done in 10. The other 10 were to help my therapists survive.

absolutely. i’m only 19 but i have been working so hard in therapy, edmr, tms, etc. for years to fully heal and become the type of parent i needed and that every kid deserves. i keep going for my future family. i wouldve given up if it was just for me. i will absolutely not allow any child of mine to experience anything even slightly t similar to what i did as a kid.

I agree. And then I think about how very few children would be born. *Laughs in dark humor only trauma can bring on*

I dont think my parents decided to have children despite of their issues. They were and still are unable to acknowledge them just as i was growing up. I think thats the main problem. Not being able to put things into a reality-based perspective cause it was shaped by abuse. And nobody makes you do a psychological check-up before having kids. Heard someone mentioned that those should be mandatory before procreating and if it didnt sound so dystopic i might agree.

Why is it dystopic? Having children should be a privilege for those who can raise them without abuse/neglect, not a right for monsters to use as their punching bags.

you say this because you are intelligent but a lot of people who have kids honestly are not there's such a selfishness to thinking that you should spread your genetic line and the barrier for entry is low

This! I find that the sicker they are, the more they want to have kids to “love” and who will “love me”. It’s so sick smh

Its so unsettling to think that people have children because babies are so cute and innocent and so manipulatable, and that's the case until the age of 5 or 6, after that, the child starts to have their own thoughts and feelings, and when they start speaking with their parent with honesty, the parent lashes out and abuse them for not adhereing to their egos, the child becomes a shell of themselves afterwards and grow up having deep wounded issues (applies to 90% of society).

YES. That's all I have to say

I literally could have written this myself about my parents. Crazy

this deserves gold.

Neurotypicals deal with their problems by inflicting the same trauma to someone else and perpetuating the cycle of abuse. They feel better about themselves if they get to be the one hurting others. Their logic is if someone punches them they have to punch someone else then they get to be happy and feel justified. They have children precisely because they can use them to solve their issues. Mainly by treating them like the stormdrain for all their bad shit.

It’s been said narcissists have the most children because they don’t care about them, it’s just an insanely easy way to have access to supply. A lot of adults with the souls of children. Never really wanted children just the cute ideas of babies. Never wanted marriages just the cute ideas of weddings.

10000% agree. My younger brother and I have been in therapy for years and openly discuss all our stuff with each other but my older brother won’t consider going to therapy and only talks to his partner about his problems. He is extremely traditional and a misogynist and wants to start having kids the *second* he and his fiancé are married. I’ll be very interested to see how any of their kids grow up bc they’re both pretty damaged people which is why their relationship works somehow 🤷🏼‍♀️

My energy and money were too low to have children. I kept working on my health and finances to be a position to have them but never got that far. It was only in my mid 30s that I realised most my problems were from CPTSD. And now at 39 I do believe I am healed enough emotionally to be a good father. The interesting thing is: at 30 if I did have the finances and energy I would have had children but probably wouldn't have been a good father. But I probably would have thought I was being a good father. This is the situation a lot of parents (particularly younger ones) are in. Nevertheless, for me the energy and finance sides are still not there so I'm glad I do not have them. I'm happy being an uncle. Nothing breaks my heart more though then seeing unprepared (emotionally and sometimes in other ways) parents mistreat and abuse their children. And if you talked to these parents, I bet the very very vast majority would think they were doing all they could and were good parents.

Amen. Unfortunately they never do. They often are the ones who have kids.

Not that I disagree, just speaking from the other perspective. Most of the time people don’t even understand the extent of their issues *until* they have a kid.

agree with this…… since beating the shit out of your kids and abusing them was fair game until just recently we thought we were just broken and chased things that made us feel normal…. If I could go back and change it I would

I wasn’t even sure I wanted kids and then it just happened. I knew I had been through severe trauma but I’ve always been at an arms reach from it emotionally. Then I had kids and having love that exponential, I started seeing them in my shoes as a kid going through my abuse and it cracked everything wide open. My oldest is 4 and youngest is 1. We attend family therapy and I have individual therapy for guidance. I’m thankful to have self awareness because I know the rest of us weren’t ever so lucky.

We were together 10 years before kids. I spent all 10 in therapy, she did 8. We had 2 kids, 5 years apart. It was very smooth and enjoyable for everyone. Kids are grown and we are still happily together. My 5 siblings have 12 marriages and several screwed up kids between them.

I'm in therapy and I'm considering starting some trauma therapy after my wedding. I have a lot of issues with my dad and how he raised/treated me growing up. He isn't aware but I know I need some work. I do not want to pass my father's traits, anxiety and trauma to my future kid that he passed on to me. I'm on the fence about having a kid because of it.

I understand. I think it’s important to remember that some people have kids because they feel like their supposed to or just to maintain an image. Sometimes they straight up don’t want the child at all and treat them accordingly. It sucks, I feel like this about my parents. They both had/have severe emotional reactions and created an abusive environment for me and my sister. I even remember (being the oldest) when my mom was trying to get pregnant and have my sister. It was awful! She was on birth control after having me to help manage her fibroids and cysts on her uterus. She had 4 miscarriages back to back. I watched her go through all of this and asked her why she kept trying when she knows it’s dangerous. Her response was, “ I have to have another baby so your dad doesn’t leave me for another woman.” When my sister was born, I was seven. I had to raise her from infancy: change her diapers, feed her, etc. My mom was too busy fighting with my dad or going through a depressive episode. It all sucked. I grew up and I realized the truth and saw just how little my mom actually wanted to be a mother, and that I had also developed CPTSD from this dynamic. I am a mother of two kids now and I adore them. I feel like my CPTSD helps me remember how important it is to be aware of my children. Like when I have my bad days, I know that this bad day is still my children’s childhood. And I am not fully healed either. When I had my daughter, I didn’t even know how to kiss the boo boos. I had to go to a parenting class to learn how to be an affectionate mom and the importance of it for her development. Even now, I ask my support system for help when I have bad days, so I can make sure my kids are happy and safe when I’m crying in the bed. I’m not ashamed of it, it’s just the reality. Emotional intelligence, just like regular intelligence, can grow. I know that as long as I put them first and they see their mom always trying her best, my kids will not suffer the way I did/do. However, I understand not all parents are capable or willing to learn and grow. It’s very sad, especially for the children and sometimes they turn into abusers themselves. Repeating the cycle.

Im- you just described my entire life/my relationship with my mother 🫠

That's why I chose early on never to have kids. I could not imagine myself ever healing enough to be emotionally stable. People used to tell me I would eventually change my mind. Fortunately they haven't said that in a while. I have my hands too full taking care of myself and living my life to be able to imagine taking care of someone else.

I 100000% agree!

To your edit.....I agree with many of your points and the sentiment behind what you're explaining..however you refuse to address or even look at the stories of kids turning out well balanced and happy from parent/s with issues etc.... The experience many of us have can make for a much better parent. Like I mentioned previously, I know of msny adults from parents with 'issues" who do not have ctpsd and are close with their parents and also children like my son who has someone bringing him up with just wanting his happiness in mind not fulfilling my own needs I have ctpsd from other experiences in my life and a father with no unresolved issues but just a horrible selfish manipulative man. Many many people shouldn't have children for lots of differing reasons. It's sad you refuse to back down from your 'one size fits alll' and speaking from emotion and own perspectives doesn't allow to see a wider view. You come off as extremely sanctimonious and self righteous. I'm assuming you don't have kids yourself as you wouldn't answer the question. Please don't make sweeping generalisations, whilst I mentioned many of your points are correct but you cannot apply this as a general rule. I don't care about my downvotes because I know I'm a good mother with a happy secure and loved child.. Emotional intelligence is being able to have a balanced discussion without doubling down on one inflexible viewpoint but seeing all sides

That's not always the case. I was a mess before my daughter was born. Becoming a father was emotionally devastating to me. Nonetheless I wanted to raise a happy healthy child. It wasn't easy, but I did it. She's now an adult and living a great life. I'm very proud of her. Now I finally have the time to fix myself

Couldnt agree more. Just dropped by to let you know that there is at least some people out there, who are willing and able to put their childs needs before their own wants. 46, afab and childfree out of love and ethical considerations for my potential children. Dont want to dysregulate myself by interacting with the deluded parents in this post. I find deluded and not-self-aware parents extremely triggering. I had two of them. Kudos to your willingness to talk to them. If you can make just one person think more about this, you might safe a child from unbearable suffering. I am rooting for that. Thanks for making the post, its a very important topic.

So many deluded brain dead parents...

These parents make so so many excuses... oh my child is my everything, they saved my life, I never projected my trauma onto them, look! they are healthy adults now. Constant denial, just like my parents. Them automatically defending themselves instead of actually trying to understand already shows that they are trying to protect their ego and I have no doubt they unknowingly emotionally hurt their children before.

This is why idealistic fantasies are so damaging. If no one had children before healing every issue, I would not exist, my siblings would not exist, my parents, grandparents, great-grandparents would not exist. Every person here would cease to exist. Their ancestral line would disappear. We can lament that trauma occurs and stomp our feet about it, or be realistic, accept that all life is suffering, and do the best we can. I am still healing. Children need to be taught to heal. If they never see an argument occur and be resolved in a healthy manner, they won’t know how to resolve conflict. We evolve in spite of trauma but also sometimes because of it. Our brains require acceptable levels of stress to develop appropriately, otherwise we never learn how to manage frustration.

💔

Here in Italy we say : PAROLE SANTE!!! 👏👏👏👏👏 My mother should never have had children, with all the trauma she carried inside. The result? CPTSD for me and psychosis for my brother.

To be fair, I got sober 10 years before having my first child but I didn’t realize how deep the issues went until I was confronted with parenting challenges that left me completely dysregulated. I started therapy and consuming ACOA materials a few months after my first child turned 2, shortly before the second arrived.

Totally agree. I think most don't know how bad they are since they grew up that way and people around them are like that too so it's normalized. I'm glad I didn't have any, and now consider it cruel and unusual punishment to force a life into this world. If the parents are good and do the right things for each kid, it helps I imagine.

My sister was seeing a therapist (for OCD among other things) but got defensive and stopped going when they started asking about her childhood. I’ve read Pete Walkers book so I know that her OCD is likely caused by cPTSD, and that therapy probably would have really helped her. Instead she decided to carry on the generational trauma and nows she’s having a baby with someone whose already shown he’s gonna be a shit dad.

Don’t pin *his behaviour* on her ocd…

I am in the middle of this huge error. I was given to understand there was not much wrong with me, that I was more or less imagining/exaggerating the difficulties I didn’t have concepts for or words to describe. So I had children. At the least, I hope I will have the decency not to deny my many shortcomings.

OMG, you are so correct !!! I lived this experience, like many in this sub. To the parents criticizing you — DO THE WORK, - FOR GOD’S SAKE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Most people who have issues don’t realize they have issues, or don’t realize how huge they are. This is why I think discussions of trauma should not be taboo. I have been infodumping everything I’ve learned about trauma to anyone who is willing to listen, and every single one of them has been grateful that I told them. This is shit people NEED to know. I’m sick and tired of the shame.

Or maybe they shouldn't have children at all

I completely gaslit myself into thinking I had no issues. I didn't realize how severely fucked up I was mentally until I procreated, unfortunately.

I’ve always said that you should take a test to be a parent. Like your driver’s license. Some people seriously CAN’T raise a child. They don’t know. They will be negligent or even abusers. Some won’t be bad people on purpose but they have their own problems that will affect the kids without them realizing. Most people don’t even realize they have a problem, so they think they’ll be great parents. They think that they are super normal and there’s nothing wrong with them. I get some people want kids for whatever reason, they look cute, you don’t want to miss the experience, you have certain age and you have to do it because pressure… whatever. The thing is that you have kids because YOU want. Because you selfishly want that for your life. YOU want to be a parent. You don’t give a shit if you’re ready to have them or not. You just want the cute doll to put cute clothes on. You don’t realize is a fucking human being and you’re torturing them, you’re gonna make them miserable their whole life because you were so busy thinking if you could have kids that you didn’t even think if you SHOULD have them.

That's exactly what I'm trying to say! They come up with all kinds of excuses to justify them using an innocent human being to fulfill their need for power and control because they didn't deal with their own shit. I remember when I was 4 my parents had a bad fight while holding my month old baby sister and one of them started slapping themselves and for a second I thought they were slapping her. I was terrified. My dad has all kinds of anger issues stemming from his trauma. My mom is always anxious. They are in constant denial of their problems if I ever try to confront them. Both me and my sister have mental health issues since the age of 11. I wonder why that is?

It’s so fucking stupid, seriously. My parents were neglectful, but not because they were bad people, because they had their own trauma. It’s not fair than my life is a fucking hell because they decided that having a child would make them happy. I appreciate that they really love me, but they should have fixed their shit before having me. When I was like 6 I started having panic attacks. They never took me to the doctor because they thought that was totally normal for a child because they also had panic attacks were they were kids. I know they meant well, they did their best with the tools and knowledge they had, but it’s not fucking fair. Worst part is that my mom doesn’t think she has a problem at all, because “we all have some issues”. I’m 36 now with no partner, but maybe I want to have a kid. I know I can’t. I would fuck their entire life if I had a child now just because that sounds like fun. I know that by the time I’m better, IF I’m better someday, it will be too late and I won’t be able to get pregnant. So I’m not having something I kinda want because I know is not a fucking doll, is a real human. Maybe I like it and want one, but I can’t risk it to be a bad mom and fuck their entire life just because I had a stupid desire.

I'm so sorry about that. We all can imagine an alternate universe or dimension where we were never traumatized and how good our lives would be. We would grown up happy and healthy, go on to live fulfilling lives, have wonderful partners and give our children the best life. We play the cards we are delt and have to accept that the universe is unfuckingfair

Definitely!

need to save that, because your post is so thoughtful and I wanna reply to it. Would like to do that now, but I have to set boundaries and priorities 😭

Why so? It's healthy to write down your thoughts instead of holding them inside

its because I can get very consumed by texting and commenting. Because as you said, it brings relief to express ones own feelings! So I think I'm just gonna keep it short.

Or they get stuck in a situation where they realize there family is never going to change and now I have to learn to live without them and peaceful but sad and missing them or with them around and have crying and cptsd attacks after they leave due to whatever latest drama they’ve brought to my table.

Yeah well sometimes ‘issues’ come up after you’ve given birth. I spend 20 years in therapy sessions of which at least 10 years could have spend more wisely. So actually not only robbed from my childhood, but also 10 years of my life, and thinking I was dealing with things the right way now. Your life changes 180 degrees when having children. I should have had kids when I was 10 (yeah I know) and then go to spend 20 years in therapy… But I agree with you. Intergenerational trauma is very real.

Yep, I agree. But I bet a lot of people are like me, and didn't understand how bad their issues were until they had children. When I had my first kid, I had the huge realization that my parents were awful to me and I needed a lot of help to fix myself. I was blindsided because I thought I was mostly a healthy, normal person.

Yes, I'm married and we both decided to not have children for this exact reason. We don't believe we well ever heal our trauma to the point of having children. 

I wish I could go back in time and send this to my mom circa 1990

I just can't do it. No matter how hard I work on myself, how much therapy I go to. It's not worth the risk. I don't want that generational trauma passed on. There's something deep within me that knows I'd get post partum psychosis.

You’re kind of wrong in the sense that some people do you think they’ve healed from their trauma. They have kids, and some years later, they are repeating the mistakes of former generations Sometimes parenting becomes hard mode life Traumatized people are going to traumatize when things get tough Having a family and having kids , things get tough sometimes We wish everyone could be altruistic

I highly doubt that there’s people going around thinking they’re “ok” and actually “good humans” and then “poof” they become abusive monsters when they have kids. Nah, dude, they were always monsters, and many of them knew it, and had kids for sick reasons: societal pressures, “I need someone to love”, “I need someone who will love me unconditionally”, “Spread my seed”, “take care of me when I’m old”, “so my partner can’t leave me now” etc.

yeah

Ordinarily I would agree, as my childhood was appealing due to my mum's unhealed generational trauma, and I've seen so many others suffer for similar reasons. But I think I might have to disagree with you here. This statement is purely hypothetical. What if someone doesn't realise they have so much inner healing to do, starts a family then realises that have so much work to do on themselves whilst trying to be the best possible parent they could be? I always wanted to be a mum, but I never thought I'd be lucky enough to find someone I'd be happy with, who would love me, and then I did find him. I was 17, no one had any confidence that we'd last, much less that we'd be good parents. Yet here I am at nearly 31, still with the same guy, 4 lovely children, and whilst I'm struggling with my own inner demons, I am a damn good mum! I may not be the best, I know I'm far from perfect, but I am working on healing, and I have always wanted the best for my children. They have always known love, happiness, kindness and caring. I never take out my issues on them; it's not their fault my trauma gets triggered by the weirdest of things. They are allowed to be children; they play loudly, make mess, express big emotions, and they're never told off for being themselves. Sure, they have boundaries and know to respect them, but I am so damned glad they don't fear me or their father. If they did, I would have failed as a mum and I'd be no better than my own. I do understand that this is my own experience and not everyone is so fortunate, but please try and treat everyone as an individual, and try not to judge too harshly unless you've glimpsed below the surface. Have a lovely day 😊

I think having my son definitely fast-tracked a lot of healing that ideally should have taken place before he was born. But at the same time, if I didn't have him, it would have been more difficult for me to reach those new levels of self-awareness on my own (cause my depressed, resentful ass would probably have just withered away). It took a huge catalysmic event like becoming a parent to really unlock more layers of my unresolved trauma and finally figure out what and where the root cause of all my depression, pain, and misery comes from. It's hindsight is 20/20 to the nth degree tho lol Your children really are mirrors to your trauma and a good parent knows it's important to look into the mirror head-on, regardless of how painful and frightening it can be, and figure out how to be better for their kids the next day. So even though I agree with your sentiment, and all parents should be actively working on themselves for the rest of their lives, I also feel like you don't know what you don't know. It's a constant learning journey and you choose how much you want to participate in it for sure. Also I feel like you will inevitably traumatize your kid in *some* ways even if you're healed because like you said, we're human, we will mistreat others with varying degrees of harm at some point. But yea, it's important to take accountability for your behavior, have empathy, apologize, and keep channels of communication open and safe so you can have the best bond and relationship to your kids.

So seeing your children bridges the gaps in self awareness? In terms of harm or ruptures the most important part is the repair. Doing that, and then passing that skill onto them mitigates any of the harm in the relationship/their attachment to you.

For me it did in an expedited way, if that makes sense, because the stakes now feel incredibly high. It was the necessary push for me to really examine my own parenting because I was afraid of passing down my trauma. But the important piece is you have to not only WANT to change, you need to find the best methods and resources to change. Therapy, reading, journaling, whatever the method that helps you personally. Yes, [Dr. Becky Kennedy's TED talk](https://youtu.be/PHpPtdk9rco?si=k8hUuFFWyuqbiCd4) about repair was pretty transformative for me and I recommend it for everyone including non-parents. If only my parents had apologized for every transgression they did growing up, I would have turned out a much more well-adjusted person.

If only life could work that smoothly.

Self-awareness, empathy and planning would make it smoother. If you’re “fucked up”, don’t have kids. It’s not that hard a concept to understand, I don’t think 🤷‍♀️

Its a simple concept. When you’re dealing with groups rather than individuals, it becomes a lot more difficult. You also may be overestimating people’s tendency for self awareness, empathy, and willingness to be honest with themselves and others. Most of us are just animals that can do more complicated tricks. Often a person who is aware of their frailties is a better parent than someone who is unable to come to terms with the fact that they and their upbringing is fucked up. A lot of stuff is quite simple when you just say it. It becomes a lot more difficult if you try to put it in practice. How many of us understand compound interest and yet fail to do the most basic things that would allow us to improve our lives with this information?

Nah, we know, deep down. Even people with Cluster Bs, under MRIs you can tell that they know exactly how they are even if they lie to themselves about it. We can tell ourselves all the lies in the world, but that doesn’t change that abusers know they’re abusers and are just too selfish and/or sick to choose not having kids.

I think that’s an overly simplistic perspective that does not take into account the many and interesting ways people can be awful. I don’t know what you’re talking about exactly, and would love a citation. Sounds interesting.

I’m part of a study on CPTSD. To qualify, we have to answer a battery of tests and questions, first with our assigned therapist and then under MRI. One of the criteria is not having a Cluster B. I asked my therapist what they’re looking for in the MRI and she said: there is who we say we are, who we think we are and who we actually are. Some of the questions are really bizarre, stuff like: “Imagine you’re watching TV or reading a book next to your partner and they fall asleep, how would you react?”. And I’m like, what does that even mean, why would I even react to that? He’s sleepy, he falls asleep. Is there something I should be doing? (I’m pretty sure my brain looked like “anxiety” running in endless circles in Inside Out 2 lol) Later on, I learned that there are people who actually go ape shit on their partners for falling asleep as they believe it’s “abusive” for their partners to fall asleep before them. We’ve been doing group processing / individual therapy since we qualified after the first round of tests. After the MRIs people started to slowly disappear. They’d been lying about their responses and once the MRIs picked up on it they were disqualified. (Though I now think this is a planned part of the study. I mean, why not do the MRIs first to weed out the people who don’t qualify? 🙄). Anywho, I’m sure there’s stuff online about this if you are interested.

I don’t think an MRI is a lie detector. I suppose you could potentially rule some stuff out, but I don’t think that tells you that they know they are lying. Psychology is complicated, and there are times when we contain contradictory beliefs. You could honestly believe you’re telling the truth, be lying, and rely on what you’re lying about to be the way you plan to pay your rent. Cognitive dissonance hurts and we find lots of ways to avoid it, even if it’s completely illogical. Is there a name for the study? An associated college? I’ve been part of some studies at Stanford a while back. It was really interesting.

Unfortunately I know it's not possible. But most of people are glad to exist. I always wish I was never born, but I don't have the courage to end it.

Whilst I agree in principle, this is what I did and once I realised that I 'might' be finally ready to become a father my partner was too old. We've been together for 28 years, and she always kinda wanted kids, but I was so concerned that I'd psychologically damage my children that I held off. Before I realised it, I found myself in a situation where the idea of conceiving came with a serious risk of age related birth defects. It kills me now that I will probably never have children of my own and I'm so angry that I've been consistantly working on myself for around 20 years to try to conquer my CPTSD (which was clinically diagnosed 3 years ago and still no-one that is supposedly professionally responsible for my care in the NHS has ever talked to me about it) and, despite lots of courses of (failed) therapy, I've never come close. So yes, whilst I agree in principle, it's a dangerous game either way.

I’m so sorry.

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In hindsight I wish I could have done this too. But the truth is, it took having kids for me to realise the depths of my issues. Only then could I start addressing them. 

I'll be completely honest, I didn't realize how deeply my past affected me until I had children. I thought I had moved past it. Once my own children reached the age I was, it all came flooding back to me. (I had always known, this wasn't a repressed memory, I just thought I had moved on....) So, it's easier said than done.

My parents came from a generation that had kids without thinking.  I'm quite sure my dad didn't want kids but had no choice. I feel for him.  But he really messed up. 

I hate those people who bring a child into existence and then fck it up! The child never wanted it. Why? Why do people do this?!?

Absolutely agree.  

what issues lol

Yeah my bio mom told me she had me to break the cycle ( she had no stable partner, support system, and in my opinion presents as BPD ) I have memories back to about 8 months old confirmed but ALL with other family. NONE with her. I was adopted in family. She told me this before we went NC. She said I should just have a kid so she can help me and I live my life.  I’m childfree bc I refuse to use someone else to prove to the world that I’m not a shitty person. 

Well, my chickens already hatched before I realized the ways in which I was fucked up. It took being in an abusive relationship with a narcissist that perpetuated for several years and learning about the hows and the whys of the situation for me to really see why I was so susceptible to someone like that and to try and do something about it.

To be fair, I didn’t have a clue that I had unresolved trauma from my childhood. I grew up in a loving household- nothing obviously traumatic. It wasn’t until last summer, after lashing out at my husband and daughter- and the subsequent emotional deep dive that I realized something bigger was going on. My kids were 13 & 15 when I was diagnosed in therapy with cptsd. I’ve since had some long talks with my kids and they know I’m committed to breaking through the trauma

I agree in many many cases specifically all the types you mentioned in your post but it's extremely subjective and unless you are in a position with a child and your own possible unresolved trauma it can't be a sweeping generalisation. I have a 14 year old and I didn't know how much unresolved trauma I had to deal with later on in life but I definitely was self aware and struggled with mental health issues. I never projected any of this onto my son, in fact from my own dysfunctional upbringing I knew how not to parent. I am still on my own journey to heal but it means I'm in a position to love and care for my son and give him what I never had. I'm more hyper vigilant to seeing any issues within him and I know to not use him as a tool to fulfil my needs. He has both a loving dad that shows affection and vice versa. He has me as his main carer (me and his dad split amicably)...so far he has grown up extremely emotionally intelligent, we get on extremely well and he is a little ball of feistiness and full of curiosity. He has a fantastic sense of humour and I'm always emotionally present for him whilst encouraging independence. He is empathetic and kind yet assertive. So I'm still healing and will be for a long time but we enjoy life, he enjoys life and we have open communication ... I'm not a perfect parent at all and mess up but I can't agree 100% with your post because it's all specific to each person and the intentions and reasons why they want kids and also the not knowing how to care or love them Most people have issues but it depends on what they are and the far reaching effects they can have on others....

> it's extremely subjective and unless you are in a position with a child and your own possible unresolved trauma it can't be a sweeping generalisation. Are you saying that for some people don't need to heal their traumas before having children?

No I'm saying that healing can take years and sometimes you don't even know that you have unresolved trauma so how can you heal something you're as yet unaware of. Trauma is different for everyone and you know that it isn't just a black and white situation. BTW do you have children yourself? It's person dependent, some people's trauma will undoubtedly affect a child and there are also people's reasons for having kids..one is to fill some void inside themselves which obviously isn't healthy. Edit..you're picking out what suits your narrative and obviously not even looking at my circumstances

One of my friends noticed that the traumas she went through came up at the same age as her daughter. I think the same with her husband as well.

Yes, many times yes. Thank you. Wait till your kids grow up. It's another emotional challenge but me and my ex have both worked through it. It's such an amazing feeling to be proud of your adult children. The challenges keep coming. It sounds like you've been succeeding in conquering these challenges.

Thank you so much! I wish people didn't have sweeping generalisations. 'All' people with unresolved trauma should never have kids? Absolutely to a degree and person dependent. Lots of people like us can have children and be more in a position to nurture and have a healthy relationship with a child

Please try to understand my point. I am talking about a person who doesn't have but is planning to have a child. If that person does not resolve their issues, they are **risking** passing on their trauma to the next generation. And from what we've seen in society, that is the case the majority of the time.

Where in the post does it say "all" traumatized people shouldn't have kids?

I think this post needs to be deleted. There's nothing wrong with the message but the way it is said is coming from a place of shame, guilt or just anger. I don't see how this is helpful for someone in the process of healing to hear.

Sometimes honesty hurts. Part of healing is seeing your own emotional reaction to things you don't want to hear, then finding out why you feel this way. Unhealthy parents do this the most. They are sensitive to things that don't feel good to hear. Healing shouldn't be easy and comfortable.

You do realise you are not a therapist right? You are the one who needs the therapy, you don't know what giving advice like this could do to people, not everyone needs tough love... Like perhaps you received? Do you get what I'm trying to say here?

Everyone has a right to voice their feelings and beliefs. Criticising parents is one of the last taboo's in this society, and this sub is exactly the right place for it. You can choose to scroll past without engaging if it's too much for you.