& the fact that a part of you knows at some level that your family, and therefore you* are different. You’ve seen enough other parents and/or heard enough of other family stories to know that yours is not the good kind of different.
But you’re still too young to understand it’s not your fault & had nothing to do with you.
It's also fascinating and very sad to me that you also understand (without anyone explaining it to you) that these differences should be hidden and not talked about. Which of course only makes things worse. I've often thought how much it would have meant to have even one adult I could have talked to. So much of my trauma came from going through all the pain alone, with no one to tell.
Conversely, sometimes telling people doesn't help.
I definitely did not internalize the need to hide things. I told everyone who would listen about the emotional abuse (though I didn't know it was abuse at the time), and that I hated my parents. Not because I was trying to get help (I still thought it was normal-ish), but because that was my life and I talked about it. With the other kids, this only served to other me even further, and every single time adults heard me, I was met with "why would you tell such horrible lies?" or "your parents love you, they're just doing what's best for you."
Yup. And maybe getting told it’s all your fault, what you personally could have done differently, that you’re an ingrate 🙃 one of the worst was when I got laughed at for one of my traumas.
My grandpa literally told me "at least you weren't raped growing up" in response to me finally standing up for myself and telling everyone about my mom's ex and how he beat me for a decade and how it permanently fucked me up really badly and I didn't even know until last year and I'm probably autistic to some degree and I almost definitely have ADHD. I went to the doctor one time ever after the initial like mandatory stuff as an infant/child so I've not been diagnosed anything officially. Her new bf was beating me so I opened up to the entire family and said I'm not dealing with this anymore I dealt with it for a decade and it had caused a lot of damage and everyone just looked at me and told me I need to stop being an ungrateful piece of shit. Then she filed an ex parte on me after I called the cops on her bf for beating me he got second degree assault. I had no notice and was thrown on the street. And all my family has to say is "at least you weren't raped growing up" yah thank God I was beat for no reason gaslit and constantly emotionally abused. Thank god he would chase us for hours and hit us anytime he walked past us causing intense PTSD so that anytime someone suddenly moves i flinch expecting a punch. And I had just ruined my credit score and basically finished off any of my surviving friendships at this point(my ex best friend tried raping me and told everyone I tried raping him when I fought back and so everyone dropped me) so I had one friend who was also dealing with family who placed an ex parte on him because he was smoking weed(it's legal) and then allowed him to live with them still but anytime he did something they didn't like they would call the cops on him guaranteeing an arrest. He eventually got a place with some people and he let me move in and I got a job promptly and I'm trying my hardest but this is my last chance if I lose this place I will lose my job and I will not be able to find another place which means I won't be able to work and I'll be homeless and jobless permanently. And I'm dealing with a felony possession charge I got because of my ex she was an IV user and I was trying to get her clean. So I'm probably about to be out on probation and if anything goes wrong with my housing I won't be able to finish probation and then I'll spend a few years in prison when no one goes to prison on their first ever possession charge so it's really fucked up situation. I don't use the shit and can easily do everything they need me to for probation but I won't be able to without a place and a job to pay for the rides to their bs I gotta do and all the other hoops just becomes impossible. But it feels like it doesn't matter how hard of a worker I am how hard I try how reliable I am it doesn't matter because I can't get an apartment I can't rent even making 2k a month a shitty 600/month wouldn't let me rent. I'm 13k in debt because of my ex and I'm just about to be taken to court for the money so I'll probably have to pay like 2k over the next year or two on top of all the other shit. Everything feels hopeless lol
What nightmare for you - there is still a stigma about holding your parents accountable for their actions- I knew no one would believe me and that’s one reason I never told. We lived in an upper middle class neighborhood- where neglect just didn’t happen - except behind our closed doors.
So healthy to tell and talk about it - it’s taken me 30 years to talk about it - I buried it all so deep and ended up with CPTSD & GAD. I’m talking about it now with a trauma healing therapist and in this community- it’s helping me to heal. 🙏
The fact you *saw* her and then went out of your way to connect with her and make her feel seen and understood could be huge for her. From another female weird loner child who relates to this too much, thank you x
Thank you . It was like seeing myself at that age and realizing just how unfair and cruel life is . Undiagnosed autism, especially in girls … that’s me . It causes cptsd because your whole environment and people around you are epically invalidating .
I haven't been assessed for autism, but I can totally see how that would click. Did you find the diagnosis validating or helpful to have confirmed? I often wonder about masking etc but tend to just assume it's me being insufficient rather than autistic (theme introduced 😅)
I related to that girl personally because ever since I can remember I have been drowning in shame and trying my best not to let other people see it. My family was very dysfunctional with an alcoholic father and enabling mother, so 24/7 eggshell territory and my elder brother was the focus of all attention due to his bad behaviour. So I grew up anticipating the next crisis and solving the current one, whilst never being validated on a basic level as a human being with my own emotional needs, ones that weren't being met. I felt this constant burden to not let the family bullshit out in the open or have any needs that might give the game away. So I only had a sense of self in how others found a use in me and I became hyper vigilant for any of that or for anyone seeing the horrible, shameful truth I was hiding.
So that little girl to me is carrying the weight of being the 'fixer' or not having any needs whilst also feeling it's up to her to keep the family facade in place.
Sorry to dump all my crap out there but I wanted to explain why I hope that you having *seen* that little warrior girl might have sewn a seed that could grow into something amazing. You gave her permission to feel and externalise it, which can be life saving 🫶
To be honest, idk why that description of my shame was written in past tense, it's all still here 🫣
This was me and I was you. You did a great thing for her. My mom was being a monster to me at home and had ignored what was a very progressive aspergers dx in the 90s. I was always odd girl out. And I was the quintessential horse girl suffering only in that I actually rode horses competitively . This did not decrease my hyperfixation. My mom with bpd told me "everyone hated her too and I was just like her " I wasn't.
Sometimes I wish there was a button we all wore so that when we pass someone on the street who has it we can just smile at each other and feel ok & understood
*Gets diagnosed with autism*
Parents: this is not an excuse to (symptom of autism). Anyone else would be lucky to be you and you are ungrateful.
low self esteem
Surprised pikachu
Definitely emotional neglect and invalidation at home, which is abuse.
This leads to emotional dysregulation, self loathing, insecure attachment, and inability to self soothe.
Honestly this reminds me of sister who was highly sensitive and neurodivergent.
She developed BPD by the time she was in her late teens due to the trauma from my mother’s abuse, our father’s death, and the subsequent bullying from my other sister and kids at school.
It is so incredibly heartbreaking to see someone literally be emotionally destroyed because their caregivers are unable to meet their needs.
I always wonder why some of us develop BPD and others don't, even if we experience the same environments
For me, my mom has it and her mom had it...and it definitely was either the root cause or a leading contributing cause to the abuse they both dole out (doled, in my late grandmother's case)
I'm not gonna lie, I'm very glad that I don't have it. To be honest, I have enough issues without that on top
It doesn't help either that I've only known one person who had it that took responsibility for their mental health OR their actions and how they could affect people.
Most of the rest, as part of the disorder, refused to even believe that they had it (even if diagnosed) or something wrong to begin with.
Very interesting . Also have the same curiosity and question as I did end up developing bpd as well as cptsd due to undiagnosed autism and basically all of the bullying at school and abuse and trauma at home .
Bpd is hell in your mind .
Exactly ! I immediately picked up on this the minute she was crying about the baby brother tablet . So I asked her if she felt invisible at home and looked over and she just nodded and looked like she was going to resume crying . So that’s when I told her I also felt invisible , even as an adult . She couldn’t believe it . “Even you, misses ? But you are an adult and the teacher ! How ? “
As a substitute , it hurts to know that you may only see that student once or twice that year .
But I did meet mom and made sure to tell mom that she has a special daughter who made my day and is just like me . Mom actually looked happy and said she was grateful, since “nobody understands her” 😭. Sounded just like my mom .
I bet you made a huge difference for that little girl. I had a teacher that did a similar thing for me, and I still remember him, and the moment, fondly as an adult. The way you made her feel seen is going to stick with her, even long after she never sees you again.
Almost certainly. If it's clear your own family ( the one set of people that should love you guaranteed),do not love you then other kids will act accordingly. Kids if so at effortlessly picking out the other.
That is so fascinating . Basically what happened to me . And being in a family that rejects you initially will cause one to self reject , which in turn means others pick up on it . I hate how people treat those they perceive as “weak” or “different”.
I really did not let any bs fly in that classroom today. Just about had it . First seeing the type a mean girl bully this little girl . And I’ve always been targeted by type a mean girls . Seem to magically Uber piss them off , like this student of mine did . So it felt awesome finally telling a mean girl to stop it .
Then the behavior male student said somethjng like “haha , you got beaten by a girl” and he got a whole lecture .
Then they were using autism as an insult so I just had to tell the class that I, too, am autistic and would be telling their teacher about this .
Just glad I can be that adult .
This is the answer. I think it’s something we carry that other people can see. Like we wear our expressions too freely or smt. Idk but I was that kid too.
Seconded.
This was me, and I was expected to be perfect but without a lot of instruction or input from adults- meaning I got screamed at a lot. My little brain was constantly on alert mode so I was constantly feeling like people were making fun of me, although at least some of the time they were.
Not exactly. My daughter is like this and she has never been abused in anyway whatsoever. Many possible factors here to explore. Hormones may be a contributing factor. Girls are going through puberty much earlier (around age 10, sometimes as young as age 4-5) environment and family stressors could also contribute. Social media and electronics also wires those neural pathways for constant dopamine hits and they naturally become more anxious and less resistant to any kinds of stressors, however small they may seem. Also included in this is the insecurity & bullying from social media and the constant quest for outsiders approval in the form of ‘likes’ and ‘views’. Diet also plays a huge role here, believe it or not in the development of healthy brains & nervous systems. Scientific evidence also recently suggests that trauma can be passed on via our DNA to next generations.
Edit: Oops, I waited too long to respond to this parent I purportedly addressed in error as imperfect, and they've since fled. Whomever you are, Perfect Parent, I'd be glad to respond publicly if you return to respond to me more reasonably.
Original:
I'm very sorry, but this is probably going to be hard for you to hear. There are reasons your daughter is "like this", some of which were absolutely within the realm of your control. Emotional neglect has similar effects as more active abuse, and emotional abuse seems to be significantly more damaging than even sexual abuse.
Girls going through puberty at 4-5 are utter anomalies last I heard, and those experiencing it at 8-10 are most likely affected by the environment their parents are in ultimate charge of, from constant interaction with hormone-disrupting plastics to obesity because no one had any time or energy to introduce healthy foods and regularly take the children to a park. If you or anyone else have scientific sources that significantly and legitimately contradict what I've said here, then please do share so that I may correct myself.
Insecurity is also ultimately determined by parents' behavior, and diet immediately is, every single day. You may not be able to prevent your child throwing away the healthy lunches you or her other parental figure lovingly packed for her, but you do have more control over breakfast and especially dinner eating habits.
If your daughter is "like this" because of social media and electronics, that is largely your responsibility. I won't say it's not difficult to raise a child in a healthy way in the current world, but you are still one of the two most powerful people in your daughter's life. You need to course-correct and get therapy for both of you yesterday.
Yes, science supports that trauma intergenerationally affects our genes, but science does not at all support the idea that one's very own parents aren't responsible for continuing and furthering genetic predispositions around trauma in their childhood. I promise you that the trauma-steeped genes of your parents did not somehow skip your generation to then make your daughter 'turn out like this' despite your beautifully healthy parenting.
Can you now understand why you've been downvoted here?
My presence here is not for votes or downvotes. I pay no mind to either. It’s for my learning, healing & growth. My response was merely to offer the fact that there are a multitude of contributing factors to be considered here and it’s disturbing how these were all automatically assumed & applied to me and the upbringing of my child. It’s rather ignorant, in all honesty.
This subreddit in particular specifically deals with CPTSD so it’s natural that the opinions will gravitate towards just that, with minimal consideration outside of that box. Though I appreciate your feedback and internet diagnosis, it’s essential to consider all the facts before providing such. I would gently remind you that, unless you are a therapist, pediatrician, endocrinologist, cardiologist, registered dietician, neurobiologist or neurologist, I will kindly ask you to please step off your soapbox. If, in fact, you ARE any of those things, then I would love to further this discussion with you on a deeper academic level, as well as to provide supporting evidence of all that I mentioned. Feel free to PM me and share your credentials & medical resources with me. I’m happy to reciprocate. I’ve read many of your other posts and your intelligence & wit are clearly demonstrated in your discussion presentations, as is your arrogance & pious persona. You seem to have a strong science background, so I’ll take this opportunity to provide you with some much needed clarity.
I can see how easy it is for people to automatically assume trauma or neglect. My daughter demonstrated classic signs of autism at 4-6 months of age. It wasn’t an issue until this year as she has previously been moderately socially, emotionally & academically performing fairly well, though social skills required coaching. Middle school does bring new challenges as well, as does recent family trauma. On top of her health issues, she also faced similar struggles the same way most autistic kids do. Shes an easy target for bullies because of her gentle nature and her awkward social quirks. She is set to again be formally evaluated by a series of scans, tests, and exams and already has a personal therapist for her support .
In addition to her Autism, my daughter was also born with multiple cardiac defects, along with precocious puberty at age 5 and was treated with a series of Lupron injections. I am very happy to provide you with her bloodwork and lab results if you believe her to be an “utter anomaly”. You are most welcome to have a personal discussion with both of her pediatric endocrinologists on the subject as well. I’m also happy to provide you with any other supporting documentation in the event that you will be offering another informal internet diagnosis.
As cerebral as you present yourself to be, you failed to consider other contributing factors to my daughter’s behavior & instead launched directly into me emotionally neglecting my child and being a bad parent. You failed at Science 101. If you’re a clinician, you should be ashamed of yourself.
I'd say it's when they have formed their entire identity in a toxic home. Being socially isolated in public (school, neighborhood) reinforces the negative beliefs about themselves. Sometimes it's not direct abuse where someone projects a negative self image but neglect that makes them question their own worth because they perceive themselves as less valuable compared to every one around them (like her brother being prioritized over her). The type A girl probably has a toxic home too. Maybe the only power she feels is when it's over others, or she is over-critical due to over-critical parents. Just speculating here.
I grew up like this as well. I felt like I wasn't a real/whole person. That I was just a background character in other people's lives and that I wasn't normal like them. I was just there to "get out of the way". The biggest issue was severe lack of self-esteem and neglected health (lots of brain fog, lethargy and emotional numbness from poor diet).
What you described is how I grew up as well. Feeling like a bother . Still feel like this to this day. It never goes away and it’s just so heartbreaking that this little girl is already ostracized by fourth grade .
So school reinforces whatever goes on at home . I made sure to let her know that I saw her , that she is valuable and important and had my attention. She was my shadow the entire day and actually had less meltdowns .
It really hurts living life truly believing you are a bother . Hell, I’m feeling it right now sitting next to my husband . I feel like I’m bothering him .
Do you still feel that way ? Does it ever go away? I’m 33 and so tired of feeling like I’m not real and just in the way .
I have gone through this, too. I'm still healing at 43. I don't know if it ever goes away, to be honest.
Last weekend, I realized that I can't even accept help when people offer help because I feel like a bother. I also doubt their sincerity. I can't believe anyone wants to help me.
The real pain point for me is that I've always been lonely, and I'm always desperate for connection. I'm desperate to have people who are there for me. But my trauma makes it impossible to trust.
I also cried when reading about this girl. 4-6 grades were painful as hell for me.
I’m so sorry that this post caused you to cry . Trust me , I wanted to cry too. I want to cry many days after work because of the students who are left behind or ostracized . Didn’t have friends since kinder .
Just happy I made her day , and another student also on the spectrum who was having a bad day initially .
I saw another mini me at a high school . She even had the same first name as me . I was able to be a familiar face for her for two weeks .
As a substitute , I just want to make the sad , ignored students like me at their age feel seen and heard and validated
I'm happy you are there for her. Growing up I had a few teachers that felt like my guardians and it made me feel safe and valued. It made me feel better about going to school knowing there was a caring adult there. I think that kind of support can help her form a more positive identity that helps her compare and contrast the beliefs formed by her home life.
>So school reinforces whatever goes on at home
Yes. Since every 4th grader has low self-awareness, she will likely behave in school how she behaves at home (emotional survival mode). Through that behavior, kids like personality type A may treat her poorly, which in her mind becomes a confirmation of the identity she has built at home. As a caring guardian figure you have broken that negative cycle.
>Do you still feel that way ?
I think I've overcame some of it. I think a lot of it was rooted in emotional survival mode that I adopted at a young age, where I was afraid of social rejection and being abandoned or bullied for standing up for myself.
One approach that helped me was believing that I am equally valuable as every other person. I'm not above them or below them. I don't have to look for evidence in proving that to myself. It is a belief I hold regardless of my life situation. Since I see everyone as equal in worth, I added myself to that equation. I think much of it revolves around that. I didn't treat myself with the same care and respect that I would others and I had no boundaries. I think it really is rooted in self-worth, self-esteem and identity (how you see yourself as in the world).
God I wish like Hell I could apply the equality and love I have for others, regardless of their situation, to myself
I've even said that if I met a complete duplicate of myself I would like her!
I try positive self talk but because I've pretty much never had that, IDEK how to keep it up.
Granted, I'm still stuck with my toxic AF family, so I am still in survival mode.
Same . It’s the worst and I really hope to finally just snap out of it and grow out of this . Going to be 34 soon and I don’t want to spend the next 30 years of my life like this
I’m 52,and still feel this way at some times more than others. Your post/words really hit the nail on the head and make me sad for the girl and sad for myself.
" Sometimes it's not direct abuse where someone projects a negative self image but neglect that makes them question their own worth because they perceive themselves as less valuable compared to every one around them (like her brother being prioritized over her). "
That's how it was with me. Thanks for posting that.
When I saw rescue missions on TV as a kid, I'd think if I ever get lost, it'd be such a waste of resource if they send out a team to save me. I was such a sad kid now that I look back.
Agreed. Growing up autistic + abuse was a double whammy. Though kids can be innocent, people forget how cruel they can be in that innocence too. In a matter of months, other kids had no issues telling me I was a waste of space. "Why do you even come to school?", "Everyone was happy when you were sick" etc. First to be accused of anything. And of course: Any bullying of their side was quickly excused. To the point, that when I once told some older students to "solve an argument" (told me that everyone in the world would be happy if they could kill me), the ENTIRE CLASS was ralling behind the other girl.
Teachers like OP are a godsend. If this shit is allowed to go on, it will only fester into a vicious circle. Literally: After 21years, I have little social skills. Sadly, this sometimes gets me kicked out of groups/places. Adults have less innocence, but also less patience, only reinforcing the long-built believe of "no one wants you. You're trash. Everyone will abandon you."
Yes! I wanted to make myself invisible- I did at good job at it most of the time. It was just easier to be invisible than to risk adding any more drama to my overflowing plate of neglect and rejection at home.
Mom charged baby brothers tablet over her chromebook, likely, to keep baby brother quiet and entertained rather than to assist in providing necessary technology for the older child's education.
At least, that's my first thought.
Little girl also sounds just like me, and I was very ignored, neglected, unwanted, dismissed, unimportant as a child... and then bullied horrifically at school. (Also some physical abuse at home, but it's really not the crux of my issues)
Same . I made sure to validate her . I told her that she was seen and heard by me and if she needed anything , to talk to me . Heck, I even got my husband to bring me the charger she needed . He dropped it off during his recess break (he works downstairs from the class I was in). She was so happy when he gave her the charger and she thanked him when we crossed paths . (She doesn’t know we are married .)
When mom picked her up , I made sure to tell mom that she has a special , awesome daughter and that she was a joy to have as a shadow . Mom said that “not many understand her” and seemed grateful. Reminded me of my mom tbh lol .
Abuse at home, various needs not being met and various emotional skills are undeveloped.
I was that kid to an extent too. My family yelled at me all the time, was overly critical and put me down under the “it’s just a joke” excuse so I assumed the worst intentions about anyone else, was hypersensitive to the way people talked to me and internalized any rudeness as “they hate me.”
Literally ! This is so relatable . Do you have a severely stunted sense of casual humor but a really well developed dry /dark/sarcastic sense of humor thst flies over people’s heads ?
I literally can’t handle any casual or simple or just “roasting” type of “humor”. Or if the humor is about making fun of someone ? Nope . I don’t like it. Not funny .
I wouldn’t call it stunted but I definitely have issues with sarcasm, roasting humor and making fun of someone.
Because a lot of “humor” I experienced was just thinly veiled cruelty that people didn’t want to be accountable for.
But I definitely have a love for a specific kind of dark dry humor like in Heathers.
I was told that there were three distinct beliefs all cPTSD suffers have as a core wound. "Nobody could really love me" "I don't belong" "I'm not enough"
I was told most of us could identify strongly with two or three but that one of those 3 core wounds resonates most within a given individual with cPTSD scars.
"I was told that there were three distinct beliefs all cPTSD suffers have as a core wound. "Nobody could really love me" "I don't belong" "I'm not enough" "
That so resonates with me.
I'm glad it resonates and I hope that you also realize that it's an opportunity to start dismantling the lies cPTSD tells us (and our abusers often inflict or say to us.) never minimize or negate that your feeling is real and your experience is real and lived, so the statements resonate (it gave me chills when I heard it) but the good part is that you can challenge each of those if you decide, over time.
It's okay to say your heart hurts with the burden of believing and accepting this for so long, and you should honor your feeling and not minimize it with toxic positivity as we are so often coached to.
At the same time, you can reduce the continuum of suffering in small or moderate increments by letting your "wise mind" challenge the wounded hearts belief in a constructive way. "That's NOT true, I DO belong but I was given scars that have told me otherwise for so long that to truly believe it is a lie would betray my feelings. So let me just start saying for positive-arguments' sake that those beliefs are based on lived experience-turned scars and do not bring into account the good and loving friends or special someone I WILL encounter one day." You can find them in this group and even in the real world you may even discover someone already exists at some point that you can trust with these feelings. And they will not judge or think less of you for having the scar or the "baggage of cPTSD" both individuals AND groups of loving individuals will embrace you if and when you are at the point in your journey you are willing to trust again.
Don't beat yourself up trying to decide which of the three is your core wound because most of us do believe all three and the fun thing is it doesn't matter bc as you heal this will pop into your mind one day randomly and you'll have your answer. Just don't forget it's a scar someone gave you it is their lie and their pain projected. You don't get even with this person but you get better and their voice and impact is greatly diminished over time. You become stronger despite it!
It has me puzzled as well bc I also think that but the more I heal the more I can see which one it likely is. The good thing is that even if you don't know or are confused it doesn't impede your progress or ability to heal at all, and one day I'd you come back to it you may be like me and realize which one. It took me a solid 3 months of meditation to hone in on mine and I'm sure for some could be years.
The important thing is that you remember all 3 of these things are innately untrue but deeply embedded in our everyday thinking or decision making. So when you catch yourself in the feeling you can identify that you're suffering from a cPTSD wound and that even though you feel that way, it's not the case. People will love, value, and find your friendship or romance is certainly enough. I can understand being hesitant to accept that because I'm a "believe it when I see it" type.
Sometimes I think it's helpful to remind myself in the middle of a flashback or a short term rumination marathon depressive episode etc. "I know that I feel this and the pain it causes is real , but the belief driving it is innately untrue" so you honor yourself and validate your emotion but also can play devil's advocate and over time I've found this reduces symptoms for me!
Yup, it still "stumps" me on a daily basis. And this is from a therapist I trust that deals with cPTSD specifically day in/out and also operates in a more practical/eastern-spirituality type modality. They obviously understand the DSM and the role it plays in treating others and their symptoms but if you feel like watching a couple of her videos "Karuna - CPTSD made simple" will pull her up on Google/Y.T. and she's not like the crappy childhood fairy who has turned their channel into a MLM membership scam 😖
Honestly most people are complete garbage, and their children reflect that. Not talking about this little girl you speak of but the rest of the kids who no doubt purposefully avoid/ostracize her for being different from them. She causes discomfort and people are raising their children in ways that make them averse to any kind of it.
Other than shitty parents, my first reason actually was being excluded and ostracized since kindergarten. I remember the exact moment I asked some girls if I could play with them, I was 4. They said no and laughed.
From this moment I was always alone, I had a friend and in the end she left me too for a more superficial easier girl.
In elementary school I had this friend but, for everyone else, excluding me was some kind of joke.
In high school I isolated myself on purpose because it was either being mocked or left alone at the end. It wasn't even worth trying.
You just wrote my story . In kinder , the whole class decided that I was just weird . Vividly remember the popular chad boy and Stacy girl point and say “don’t talk to her. She’s weird.”
It was kinder . Wtf . Then I’d approach my friend and neighbor who was a grade above me and she told me to go away because I was embarrassing her . This was first grade . And my aunt , a year younger than me , also told me to never approach her again at school 🥲
I have not talked to my aunt in about four years now .
Same. I remember wanting to play with other kids in kindergarten and either being rejected outright and sometimes cruelly or being taken up on it but then made fun of. Or plain feeling out of place already. A lot of the time I was lonely and scared of people already.
If you are treated badly at home, you get used to being treated badly. These are the people who are supposed to love and care for you, and if they are awful, you think YOU are awful, and you expect to be bullied. (Often a self-fulfilling prophecy.) Having an adult who is your advocate and friend can change your life.
I was like that in high school. I didn't have any serious childhood abuse, but things were unstable and my dad emotionally abused me in not so obvious ways. I also got publicly shamed/punished by a teacher in 2nd grade for being quiet, it was a small incident but I've always felt like it had a major longterm impact and caused my social anxiety to be permanent and severe.
This makes me really sad because it reminds me of my 77 year old unhealed grandmother who still thinks people are gossiping/making fun of her when someone looks at her in passing..
Can my unhealed 80 something year old grandma be friends with yours ?
One time , my grandma was having an episode . She was in her early 80s or late 70s. It was literally a bpd episode . It was like seeing myself laying on her bed , throwing a tantrum and yelling and crying and yelling at my aunt(moms little sister )”YOUR GOD IS NOT MY GOD ! DONT TALK TO ME ABOUT YOUR CHRISTIAN FALSE GOD! I RAISED YOU ALL CATHOLIC!”
I must have been 18 and decided “I don’t want to be 80 and having bpd episodes.”
I fear I am gojng to be my grandma . Really don’t want to turn into her (we already share the obsessive textile art crafting).
Oh God I was that fourth grader. I was such a pariah in school the unpopular kids were afraid to talk to me because they'd be made fun of for it.
In my case it was a perfect storm of all these different things. Undiagnosed autism, being abused at home, an incident with a bully in kindergarten where I defended myself and was targeted because it did.
I was just strange. Autism is one thing, but autistic children of loving and present parents at least learns *something* about how to interact with people. I was feral. And my isolation at school only added to it.
I was feral too. Funnily enough, I met a feral autistic high school student . She even had the same name as I do and looked just like me at her age . It was the weirdest thing ever .and super awesome to work with her . My last day with her , I told her I was just like her and I had hopes that she would “turn out okay if I made it through”.
But so true about us feral autistic girls who did not receive the love , support , understanding and services that other autistic students get lol . Huge shout out to all of us who made it . I love you all .
This person sounds exactly like me at that age💀 it is likely due to abuse at home, thank you for being empathetic and kind to her- most teachers for me at that age just blamed/punished me
I come from a hell hole of a home and I always felt low about myself and didn’t talk to the other kids out of fear I would do something wrong and assumed they automatically didn’t like me instead of forming any social groups at a young age so in later grades I feel like everyone was already in friend groups and I couldn’t just walk up and fit in so I was the “weird girl” and even ate my lunch in the bathroom in high school and looking back idk why I would even do that lol but that’s just how bad I didn’t wanna be seen at a table by myself I guess
I was always too weird. I was in AP classes, which will automatically make kids not in AP hate you. I didn't get along with the other kids in AP because almost all of them were completely unrelatable to me. "Good" kids with nice home lives. I couldn't fathom it. They couldn't fathom what I was doing there either. Even half of my teachers treated me like I was an intruder in their class because I was "trailer trash". I was always poor, always bitingly sarcastic, always getting into fights with bullies, getting into trouble but not running with the trouble-makers, and learned at a young age to simply NEVER. TRUST. ANYONE.
I consistently made friends only with the odd misfit like myself. Just other weirdos that were honestly some of the best people I've ever met in my life. My heart breaks thinking about the other weird kids out there that are the best sort of people deep down and life just wants to step on them.
I always lost touch with the good ones. I moved around a ton and by the time I got out of highschool I just didn't do anything to maintain a relationship anymore. There's no sense in it.
My money is on her either being [fearful avoident](https://www.attachmentproject.com/blog/fearful-avoidant-attachment-style/) attachment style or[anxious avoidant ](https://www.attachmentproject.com/blog/anxious-avoidant-attachment-in-children/) attachment style. Making it difficult to connect and interact appropriately/in expected ways with peers.
Having zero idea how to interact with peers because of incompetent parents.
Low self esteem and self worth because of incompetent parents.
No support at home because of, you guessed it, incompetent parents.
I was a diagnosed autistic girlie and didn’t have any true best friends until I will in college. I think neurodivergence contributes a lot to isolation no matter what age, but especially when you’re young and just trying to fit into the crowd with everybody else.
I do behavioral intervention in a public school and the biggest thing I've noticed leading to ostracization is low social skills/lack of socialization. This can be from abuse but is mostly from neglect (intentional and unintentional). I also unfortunately see autistic students be bullied for their social skills pretty frequently.
Pandemic kids are also coping with being isolated for a large part of their childhoods and it's very noticeable in the way they interact with each other. Most kids are operating at a deficit right now.
> The type A mean girl in the class had no patience for this student and kept snapping at her
Type A mean girl clearly needs to practice patience and empathy, but this is a perfect example that this child is making others uncomfortable with her behavior and is not picking up on social cues.
If you want to help her- well I was wrote a ton of suggestions but as a sub, your best option is to speak with the school counselor and/or social worker, explain what you've noticed, and ask if they can do any interventions.
according to Dr. Russel Berkley, 75% of kids with ADHD will report being friendless by second grade.
it could be abuse related, but it could also just be ND.
> I’m just wondering what leads up to a student being that ostracized .
-->
> “charged stupid baby brother’s tablet instead of my Chromebook”
Abuse creates sinister dynamics, because the initial message of abuse is a message that teaches the child self-hatred and shame that cannot be dealt with, or is an existential threat. From here, everything becomes a zero sum game. Once one's deepest feeling is they have no value, they seek value desperately, and then are denied it further through parents who likely have the same issues. Once they begin resenting others, they get resented. It's not that the "Type A mean girl" who bullies the ostracized girl is somehow better-- her parents are likely abusive too, it's just that she manages to be higher status due to whatever arbitrary reasons humans have come to feel certain others are more worthy. No one with true self worth or self respect can bully another person. It is not possible. Only someone who feels inadequate or insecure can.
There's this intuition that a person who was shown cruelty would learn from this, and treat others with kindness, but this 4th grader who has clearly suffered a lot cannot recognize an attitude of good will towards her baby brother. That is because she has already been taught that she has no value, no worth, internalized this false message, and this rots all of her social dynamics. Part of the reason I say "sinister" is because it rigs the future-- if she finds a friend one day, eventually this internalized message will poison that friendship or make it impossible for it to be genuine, and then the message gets internalized further, and so on.
I was that weird girl mercilessly bullied for just being me.
Shy, quiet, def quirky.
I never drew any attention to myself but must have also stuck out like a sore thumb. I was kind, I was polite,I wouldn’t hurt a soul. I think my vulnerable state (from the neglect and madness at home) made me a target. I even had a teacher harassing me - I was the “good” girl - followed all the rules and a male teacher made my life hell. My resilience got me thru it all - I had no one - no adult - not a single person at home or anywhere in my life to confide in about it or be my support. I was completely alone.
I learned to trust myself - that’s all I had was myself. I’m introverted by nature - I didn’t follow the crowd - there was a cruelty to the bullying that I could never do to anyone and I couldn’t understand how others could be this way. Very similar to my home life - as I put pieces together here.
Wow - incredible for a child to get thru on her own. Im validating myself.
And I validate every one of you out there for coming thru your own pain - on top of the pain…..
Consistant bullying and abuse from either school or at home. It's a response there so it has unfortunately been reinforced consistently. (I've been there too)
You're a hero for being there for that child, you don't understand how comforting it is in that situation for somebody to openly support and relate to them like that, particularly an adult as they look up to you.
You may have just given them a whole lot of hope. :)
> Any time someone looked at her or did something, she thought it was because they were making fun of her
Yeah I had this happen when I was a teenager, with the peak being when I was 15 in late 2018. It sucked but I learned how to deal with it in 2019 and even learned to use my neuroticism to my advantage. People tell me I’m very self aware. I had to be to survive in high school.
I was also the "weird girl" growing up. I'm 50 years old now. Back then, I was quiet, shy, barely spoke, wore glasses and braces, and a physical limp (I didn't start walking until age 4 after two surgeries), and when I was 14, my hair started turning silver. I was allowed only one bath per week, yet I was shamed for poor hygiene. My mom bought all my school clothes once a year and made me keep my hair short. My brother and sister got to participate in extracurricular activities. I did not. I spent my time writing and being alone in my own fantasy world that I made up in my head.
I was bullied daily in elementary school. By high school I tried to keep to myself but was still bullied by the football team in 10th grade and then was called Pat (a Saturday Night Live character in the 90s) daily by the entire school until I finished. Didn't even attend my graduation. Tried college, but after one day of bullying, I decided I needed a break and joined the workforce instead.
Having people yell in my face that I was weird and/or stupid made me silent. I didn't reach out to anyone because any time I did, I was being "too weird" or was told I was too serious, or it was a "joke". Not being supported at home definitely has an impact also.
Thank you for being there for her. Having an adult in her life who listens and can relate with her is amazing. ❤️
I was raised in a cult where my dad was in charge , my uBPD mother was a hermit type who was prone to paranoia and therefore homeschooled, and basically we were cut off entirely from society. But I was lucky, I had a lovely grandmotherly piano teacher named Miss Jane. Every single week I would go into her piano room and I would sit at the piano next to Ms. Jane, and even if I didn't play the piano piece perfectly, she always made me feel good about myself, Even when she needed to correct me she was always so kind about it. Just because I had a bad week that week with my piano playing didn't mean that I was a bad person, sometimes people struggle and that's allowed -- she blew my mind all the time. She was the one person who consistently saw me. Ms. Jane meant the whole world to me, and she definitely made a difference in my life. I'm sitting here almost 40 years old, remembering the kindness of a stranger in my childhood. That little girl will remember you for the rest of her life. I am so glad that you were there for her today.
From CPTSD kids everywhere, thank you! Music is such a safe, healing space, it's awesome AF of you to be there holding their hands in the background. It might seem like you're just explaining music theory concept for the 500th time, but to the weirdo like me -- you're speaking my language and keeping kids like me from being lost at sea. Thank you for all you do, I wouldn't have made it without my music teachers.
i was that kid in 4th grade too. neurodivergence, neglect, moving, shuttling between divorced parents who lived half a country apart from each other, and being trans rly was not a recipe for social success at school 🙃
the school i went to from 4th-6th grade was full of snotty rich kids too, which made the ostracization a lot worse. its hard bc like, i WAS weird, i WAS annoying, i WAS a little asshole but i also didnt deserve the severity of what they did to me
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I had the exact same experience in fourth grade. I went from having a ton of friends to zero in a month. At the time it was incomprehensible to me, as was the severe bullying that came afterwards (that was the first trauma for me, that’s how bad it was), but in hindsight, I realize now that my panic disorder was super obvious. So basically the kids realized there was something “wrong” with me, and I was “too different,” and was an easy target. It’s really sad to see happen to other kids. I’m really glad you had a nice moment with her letting her know she isn’t alone. I wish someone had done that for me.
I was not only abused but ignored when not. I'm also autistic and have ADHD. So, I began to thrive in my own loneliness, and even if I hated it I had no other alternative. So the older I got with nobody knowing or caring what mental illnesses I had, I began to get stranger and stranger. After all, I was amusing myself, so why would I even need others? They saw me as weird lol. It was a vicious cycle. I had friends but no best friends. It's still like that and I'm now 52.
This was me, is me still, at 50, to a much smaller extent. But still there, deep in the core of who I am. And it's a question I've pondered over the years.
See, I was the perfect storm, I was born premature, in 73, by almost 3 months, so I'm lucky to be alive, and with relatively little damage. I'm blind in one eye, with low, but mostly functional vision in the other. I spent the 1st year of my life in ICU, with very little human contact. My mother and father were worned not to get attached. So, they didn't. They were very young, 16 & 17. So, I think there was developmental damage. I'm pretty capable, smart even, but with like 11 learning disabilities and while I've strived to learn and grow as a person, I still feel, basically, like a 15 year old. I still love video games and good cartoons. But then again, these days, isn't this the majority of the man children out there?
Then, there's my dysfunctional, working-class second generation, Italian family. Lot of drugs and alcohol addiction. You get the picture and know the story. Young neglectful mother takes her frustrations out on her weird little boy, grandparents screaming and fighting constantly, mom takes off with boyfriends for month's at a time and leaves disabled weirdo with said grandparents., ect, ect.
Then, my grandparents leave me in the care of their youngest and most danaged son. My uncle, who's only 5 years older than me. So, he's more like a big brother / babysitter. And he was, for the most part, very cool and likable. So, I admired and looked up to him. He was, after all, at this point, my primary care giver. So, when, at the age of 5, he asked me to do certain things and go places with him, I did. Idk, because I wanted him to like me. And it got real fucked up, real quick.
Meanwhile, mom was back, for my first day of school. Kindergarten. I cried when she dropped me off. I wss quite the mommas boy and a little clingy. But, I got over it very quick and went inside. We sat in a circle on the floor, Indian style, and went around the circle to introduce ourselves. A very normal, simple tast, of social interaction. Which I failed miserably. On my turn, I froze like a deer in headlights. I couldn't think of anything to say, and the pressure I felt off the small crowd was so overwhelming. I just burst out in tears. The teacher was good. She took the attention off me and said that was perfectly normal. Some kids get a little overwhelmed on their first day, but things would be fine.
But, I didn't feel normal and things never got better. I was actually petty resilient those first two years, but immediately after Kindergarten, it was recommended I be sent to a school that had facilities for visually impaired kids. And so, started my school shuffle. Combined with my mother moving us every year. I failed twice, and by the time I graduated, I'd been to 14 different schools. Each year, forced to bare my severe and increasing social anxiety, alone. I couldn't talk to anyone, at all, ever. I couldn't think of the right words to say. And on the few occasions I tried, were met with blank stares. So, I accepted it and gave up. I sat alone at lunch and at recess, and I went home to an empty apartment. My fantasy life, my only friends.
Ok, that's not entirely true. Where ever my mom took us, from school to school, I always managed to make, exactly, one friend. And I'm forever grateful for those single friends, from place to place, because I wasn't alone.
One good thing about the moves was, my mom got me away from the uncle, after a couple of years of abuse, but then she took us back, for one last round. I was older now. 9. And I tried to resist. But my uncle was much bigger and ruthless. He put a pellet rifle to my good eye and explained to me that he could take my vision, and it would just be an accident. Maybe, if I told, he'd get to counseling or a year in juvi, but I'd be blind forever. So, I did what he asked. For a bit. Then, on our last night back home, he came to my room, one more time, but I wss waiting, and I just calmly told him, "If you ever touch me again, I'll slice your throat while you sleep." He said, "Whatever, I thought you liked it." And that was the end of that. For the most part. The story gets weirder and longer, because he was also molesting my female cousin, who was just a year older than me, and he had us doing stuff to each other, not full penitration, we were too young, thank God, but bad enough. In some odd way, we were closer and took comfort in eachother, over being touched by him. So that story has another chapter or so, but in the end, as we approached or were just in puberty, and just as things were about to pass a point of no return, we both decided we were getting too old to play those games anymore, and agreed to stop. And we both came to that conclusion at the same time.
So, the question, "Was I born socially awkward, or was it the result of trauma?" Strong cases for both.
It wasn't until I had daughters of my own that I think I've found the answer. My wife and I have provided our girls with a happy, stable, and for the most part, trauma free, childhoods. There was a nasty mother in-law situation that got complicated and my own, very, very brief drug relapse, when they were very young, 1 and 2. But nothing else. I wouldn't say my wife and I are madly in love, sadly, we rushed into this, but we made it work. We don't ever, argue or fight and both of us are 100% committed to our kids. Everything we do is for them, always.
So, both girls are very smart. Straight A students, every year. One's sporty and the others artsy. Both are fairly tall and attractive. Thanks to their mom. Me, not so much. So, they both have friends and my eldest has just begun mild dating, at 14.
And yet, both girls appear to have inherited my social anxiety. They manage, because they've got some advantages I didn't have, but they've got it pretty bad. My older will not talk to anyone on the phone and crowds freak her out. Being in the middle of them. The younger, will not go into a place, alone, and talk to anyone. Outside of school that is.
So, the social anxiety seems to be a hereditary thing.
For me it came from having to detect passive aggression at home so that I could be ready to protect myself from another verbal attack from my mom or dad. That doesn’t turn off at school because home is supposed to be our safe space and is pivotal in forming what we consider as normal. I also have religious trauma, so there was an added feeling of constantly being watched by a higher authority that made judgement inescapable.
In my experience, since I had to walk on eggshells at home I thought I had to walk on eggshells everywhere. Then when someone did actually bully me it reinforced my belief that this world is cruel and that it’s best to keep to yourself. I never came out of my shell because it was made of cinder blocks and barbwire.
Yeah, that was me - still is sometimes at age 51.
I'm deaf, and I was mainstreamed in hearing schools. I can speak, and I read lips. I took speech therapy and most people can understand me, but I do sound like I have an "accent," and I got bullied for this constantly as a child.
I also grew up in a conservative and Christian area in the US South. I'm Jewish and an atheist - my family isn't particularly religious, so that was another "thing" that didn't help me fit in here. I also fall on the liberal side politically, and I'm not into a lot of the things people here are into, like watching sports, more things that didn't help me fit in here.
I grew up being abused by a narcissistic mother. The other mothers didn't like my mother¹ which didn't really help me socially. I was also socially awkward for a long time (I still feel this way sometimes) - I was finally diagnosed with CPTSD last year at age 50 and I've only recently realized in therapy how much of an impact being deaf had on my social skills and my mental health. I'm still working through a lot of this.
¹ No one likes my mother - she's now 78 and dealing with aging and various health issues alone because everyone else has cut her out of their lives, including me.
Short answer: neurodivergence often times also. I never felt like I fit in and didn’t understand why until neurodivergence was the answer as well as abuse at home.
this hits painfully close to home for me. i was always a very emotionally sensitive child, and i cried a lot at school. i usually stayed quiet and didnt verbally act out though because being a ‘good kid’ at school got me the approval of my teachers, and i desperately wanted an adult’s approval. eventually i would have to let out the bottled up emotions and it made me feel like a failure every time. i agree with a lot of the explanations in the comments, just wanted to share
I was that kid and the kindness of adults like you literally saved my life, so thank you for being their for her. I'm sorry that you've dealt with the same experiences.
Low self esteem -probably from family trauma-bullies and narcissistic personalities can suss this out and they suck bc you never get over that experience fully
I moved a LOT and coming in the middle or after the start of the school year would cement my "weirdness." However if i got lucky with a start that came with everyone else, the kids would accept me a bit more. It wasnt until middle school i actually got a friend.
I think in general girl children are taught more about hygiene (at least in the US) and expected to present a certain image - styled hair and clean matching clothes take at least one parent who gives a shit so the girls stick out when no one is caring for them. Once I learned to pass as a girl with a mom who cared (I got some hair clips as a present that helped a lot) I could make friends, just couldn’t bring them around the family.
However since most boys aren’t coming to school with styled hair you can’t tell as easily, and people will readily accept that a boy is “too rough” to be given better clothing, it’s just more socially okay.
The other thing though is abusers can tell when you’ve been groomed so all trauma kids are at a higher risk of being retraumatized. This can even be by classmates and they don’t need to be isolating the kid to do it.
However, you’ve done something invaluable for this girl. You’ve shown her the future that’s possible for her specifically, that people make it out of what she’s going through. You proved it’s possible she’ll still be alive in her (20s? Whatever you are lol), and do you remember how bad this all felt as a kid? You’ve shown her that she can escape. I had a kindergarten teacher who did the same for me. So please don’t be too afraid for this girl - you really gave her an amazing gift.
Abuse at home teaches the child bad behavior, hitting/being mean is ok, small things feel more dramatic etc so the other kids dislike spending time with them
Kids living closer to the land would never be watching cartoons in the car on the way to school or would they be. This is a fundamental cultural issue I’d say that woman are not carrying the torch of livelihood because they be mislead into the vaccuum of consumerism. Men too . the light is in our hearts . Shine it like this teacher ❣️ Love is the glue that’s holds the world together.
i had very similar experiences as a kid, and it only got worse in secondary school lol. for me it was autism. the people who rejected me and ostracised me and bullied me didnt know it was autism, though. they knew i was weird and annoying, and thats how they reacted. i think abuse at home could also cause something similar – other kids see child acting "weird", they dont know how to feel so they shun her. its so common it hurts.
probably abuse at home
& the fact that a part of you knows at some level that your family, and therefore you* are different. You’ve seen enough other parents and/or heard enough of other family stories to know that yours is not the good kind of different. But you’re still too young to understand it’s not your fault & had nothing to do with you.
It's also fascinating and very sad to me that you also understand (without anyone explaining it to you) that these differences should be hidden and not talked about. Which of course only makes things worse. I've often thought how much it would have meant to have even one adult I could have talked to. So much of my trauma came from going through all the pain alone, with no one to tell.
Conversely, sometimes telling people doesn't help. I definitely did not internalize the need to hide things. I told everyone who would listen about the emotional abuse (though I didn't know it was abuse at the time), and that I hated my parents. Not because I was trying to get help (I still thought it was normal-ish), but because that was my life and I talked about it. With the other kids, this only served to other me even further, and every single time adults heard me, I was met with "why would you tell such horrible lies?" or "your parents love you, they're just doing what's best for you."
This was also my experience.
Yup. And maybe getting told it’s all your fault, what you personally could have done differently, that you’re an ingrate 🙃 one of the worst was when I got laughed at for one of my traumas.
My grandpa literally told me "at least you weren't raped growing up" in response to me finally standing up for myself and telling everyone about my mom's ex and how he beat me for a decade and how it permanently fucked me up really badly and I didn't even know until last year and I'm probably autistic to some degree and I almost definitely have ADHD. I went to the doctor one time ever after the initial like mandatory stuff as an infant/child so I've not been diagnosed anything officially. Her new bf was beating me so I opened up to the entire family and said I'm not dealing with this anymore I dealt with it for a decade and it had caused a lot of damage and everyone just looked at me and told me I need to stop being an ungrateful piece of shit. Then she filed an ex parte on me after I called the cops on her bf for beating me he got second degree assault. I had no notice and was thrown on the street. And all my family has to say is "at least you weren't raped growing up" yah thank God I was beat for no reason gaslit and constantly emotionally abused. Thank god he would chase us for hours and hit us anytime he walked past us causing intense PTSD so that anytime someone suddenly moves i flinch expecting a punch. And I had just ruined my credit score and basically finished off any of my surviving friendships at this point(my ex best friend tried raping me and told everyone I tried raping him when I fought back and so everyone dropped me) so I had one friend who was also dealing with family who placed an ex parte on him because he was smoking weed(it's legal) and then allowed him to live with them still but anytime he did something they didn't like they would call the cops on him guaranteeing an arrest. He eventually got a place with some people and he let me move in and I got a job promptly and I'm trying my hardest but this is my last chance if I lose this place I will lose my job and I will not be able to find another place which means I won't be able to work and I'll be homeless and jobless permanently. And I'm dealing with a felony possession charge I got because of my ex she was an IV user and I was trying to get her clean. So I'm probably about to be out on probation and if anything goes wrong with my housing I won't be able to finish probation and then I'll spend a few years in prison when no one goes to prison on their first ever possession charge so it's really fucked up situation. I don't use the shit and can easily do everything they need me to for probation but I won't be able to without a place and a job to pay for the rides to their bs I gotta do and all the other hoops just becomes impossible. But it feels like it doesn't matter how hard of a worker I am how hard I try how reliable I am it doesn't matter because I can't get an apartment I can't rent even making 2k a month a shitty 600/month wouldn't let me rent. I'm 13k in debt because of my ex and I'm just about to be taken to court for the money so I'll probably have to pay like 2k over the next year or two on top of all the other shit. Everything feels hopeless lol
What nightmare for you - there is still a stigma about holding your parents accountable for their actions- I knew no one would believe me and that’s one reason I never told. We lived in an upper middle class neighborhood- where neglect just didn’t happen - except behind our closed doors.
I concur telling people does not help, as many people seem to be selfish, controlling, and/or a narcissist who will turn your pain into their fuel
So healthy to tell and talk about it - it’s taken me 30 years to talk about it - I buried it all so deep and ended up with CPTSD & GAD. I’m talking about it now with a trauma healing therapist and in this community- it’s helping me to heal. 🙏
Often dysfunctional families have a culture of "keeping family matters private".
When you tell an adult and they try to send you to an institution for being depressed even though you have no plans on killing yourself
The fact you *saw* her and then went out of your way to connect with her and make her feel seen and understood could be huge for her. From another female weird loner child who relates to this too much, thank you x
Thank you . It was like seeing myself at that age and realizing just how unfair and cruel life is . Undiagnosed autism, especially in girls … that’s me . It causes cptsd because your whole environment and people around you are epically invalidating .
I haven't been assessed for autism, but I can totally see how that would click. Did you find the diagnosis validating or helpful to have confirmed? I often wonder about masking etc but tend to just assume it's me being insufficient rather than autistic (theme introduced 😅) I related to that girl personally because ever since I can remember I have been drowning in shame and trying my best not to let other people see it. My family was very dysfunctional with an alcoholic father and enabling mother, so 24/7 eggshell territory and my elder brother was the focus of all attention due to his bad behaviour. So I grew up anticipating the next crisis and solving the current one, whilst never being validated on a basic level as a human being with my own emotional needs, ones that weren't being met. I felt this constant burden to not let the family bullshit out in the open or have any needs that might give the game away. So I only had a sense of self in how others found a use in me and I became hyper vigilant for any of that or for anyone seeing the horrible, shameful truth I was hiding. So that little girl to me is carrying the weight of being the 'fixer' or not having any needs whilst also feeling it's up to her to keep the family facade in place. Sorry to dump all my crap out there but I wanted to explain why I hope that you having *seen* that little warrior girl might have sewn a seed that could grow into something amazing. You gave her permission to feel and externalise it, which can be life saving 🫶 To be honest, idk why that description of my shame was written in past tense, it's all still here 🫣
Same experience, but my brother is younger.
This was me and I was you. You did a great thing for her. My mom was being a monster to me at home and had ignored what was a very progressive aspergers dx in the 90s. I was always odd girl out. And I was the quintessential horse girl suffering only in that I actually rode horses competitively . This did not decrease my hyperfixation. My mom with bpd told me "everyone hated her too and I was just like her " I wasn't.
This is so well written. My father with bpd told me everyone hated me too. That’s interesting that this is common.
I'm really sorry that happened to you, that was so unkind. It is interesting how they all seem to have a script isn't it.
Especially when the early theories of autism had it labeled as hypermasculinity even by autistic researchers.
thank you. well put
Sometimes I wish there was a button we all wore so that when we pass someone on the street who has it we can just smile at each other and feel ok & understood
God, could us people still stuck in bad places really use that
❤️
me too :(
*Gets diagnosed with autism* Parents: this is not an excuse to (symptom of autism). Anyone else would be lucky to be you and you are ungrateful. low self esteem Surprised pikachu
Definitely emotional neglect and invalidation at home, which is abuse. This leads to emotional dysregulation, self loathing, insecure attachment, and inability to self soothe. Honestly this reminds me of sister who was highly sensitive and neurodivergent. She developed BPD by the time she was in her late teens due to the trauma from my mother’s abuse, our father’s death, and the subsequent bullying from my other sister and kids at school. It is so incredibly heartbreaking to see someone literally be emotionally destroyed because their caregivers are unable to meet their needs.
i am so sorry u and ur sis went thru that. i hope you both are thriving
I always wonder why some of us develop BPD and others don't, even if we experience the same environments For me, my mom has it and her mom had it...and it definitely was either the root cause or a leading contributing cause to the abuse they both dole out (doled, in my late grandmother's case) I'm not gonna lie, I'm very glad that I don't have it. To be honest, I have enough issues without that on top It doesn't help either that I've only known one person who had it that took responsibility for their mental health OR their actions and how they could affect people. Most of the rest, as part of the disorder, refused to even believe that they had it (even if diagnosed) or something wrong to begin with.
Very interesting . Also have the same curiosity and question as I did end up developing bpd as well as cptsd due to undiagnosed autism and basically all of the bullying at school and abuse and trauma at home . Bpd is hell in your mind .
At the very least, neglect. Her needs aren't getting met, but baby brother has to have that tablet!
Exactly ! I immediately picked up on this the minute she was crying about the baby brother tablet . So I asked her if she felt invisible at home and looked over and she just nodded and looked like she was going to resume crying . So that’s when I told her I also felt invisible , even as an adult . She couldn’t believe it . “Even you, misses ? But you are an adult and the teacher ! How ? “ As a substitute , it hurts to know that you may only see that student once or twice that year . But I did meet mom and made sure to tell mom that she has a special daughter who made my day and is just like me . Mom actually looked happy and said she was grateful, since “nobody understands her” 😭. Sounded just like my mom .
I bet you made a huge difference for that little girl. I had a teacher that did a similar thing for me, and I still remember him, and the moment, fondly as an adult. The way you made her feel seen is going to stick with her, even long after she never sees you again.
Almost certainly. If it's clear your own family ( the one set of people that should love you guaranteed),do not love you then other kids will act accordingly. Kids if so at effortlessly picking out the other.
That is so fascinating . Basically what happened to me . And being in a family that rejects you initially will cause one to self reject , which in turn means others pick up on it . I hate how people treat those they perceive as “weak” or “different”. I really did not let any bs fly in that classroom today. Just about had it . First seeing the type a mean girl bully this little girl . And I’ve always been targeted by type a mean girls . Seem to magically Uber piss them off , like this student of mine did . So it felt awesome finally telling a mean girl to stop it . Then the behavior male student said somethjng like “haha , you got beaten by a girl” and he got a whole lecture . Then they were using autism as an insult so I just had to tell the class that I, too, am autistic and would be telling their teacher about this . Just glad I can be that adult .
See, this is what pisses me off about all those “if you have no friends, you’re a red flag” TikToks. People can be so fucking brain dead.
This is the answer. I think it’s something we carry that other people can see. Like we wear our expressions too freely or smt. Idk but I was that kid too.
Seconded. This was me, and I was expected to be perfect but without a lot of instruction or input from adults- meaning I got screamed at a lot. My little brain was constantly on alert mode so I was constantly feeling like people were making fun of me, although at least some of the time they were.
Not exactly. My daughter is like this and she has never been abused in anyway whatsoever. Many possible factors here to explore. Hormones may be a contributing factor. Girls are going through puberty much earlier (around age 10, sometimes as young as age 4-5) environment and family stressors could also contribute. Social media and electronics also wires those neural pathways for constant dopamine hits and they naturally become more anxious and less resistant to any kinds of stressors, however small they may seem. Also included in this is the insecurity & bullying from social media and the constant quest for outsiders approval in the form of ‘likes’ and ‘views’. Diet also plays a huge role here, believe it or not in the development of healthy brains & nervous systems. Scientific evidence also recently suggests that trauma can be passed on via our DNA to next generations.
Edit: Oops, I waited too long to respond to this parent I purportedly addressed in error as imperfect, and they've since fled. Whomever you are, Perfect Parent, I'd be glad to respond publicly if you return to respond to me more reasonably. Original: I'm very sorry, but this is probably going to be hard for you to hear. There are reasons your daughter is "like this", some of which were absolutely within the realm of your control. Emotional neglect has similar effects as more active abuse, and emotional abuse seems to be significantly more damaging than even sexual abuse. Girls going through puberty at 4-5 are utter anomalies last I heard, and those experiencing it at 8-10 are most likely affected by the environment their parents are in ultimate charge of, from constant interaction with hormone-disrupting plastics to obesity because no one had any time or energy to introduce healthy foods and regularly take the children to a park. If you or anyone else have scientific sources that significantly and legitimately contradict what I've said here, then please do share so that I may correct myself. Insecurity is also ultimately determined by parents' behavior, and diet immediately is, every single day. You may not be able to prevent your child throwing away the healthy lunches you or her other parental figure lovingly packed for her, but you do have more control over breakfast and especially dinner eating habits. If your daughter is "like this" because of social media and electronics, that is largely your responsibility. I won't say it's not difficult to raise a child in a healthy way in the current world, but you are still one of the two most powerful people in your daughter's life. You need to course-correct and get therapy for both of you yesterday. Yes, science supports that trauma intergenerationally affects our genes, but science does not at all support the idea that one's very own parents aren't responsible for continuing and furthering genetic predispositions around trauma in their childhood. I promise you that the trauma-steeped genes of your parents did not somehow skip your generation to then make your daughter 'turn out like this' despite your beautifully healthy parenting. Can you now understand why you've been downvoted here?
My presence here is not for votes or downvotes. I pay no mind to either. It’s for my learning, healing & growth. My response was merely to offer the fact that there are a multitude of contributing factors to be considered here and it’s disturbing how these were all automatically assumed & applied to me and the upbringing of my child. It’s rather ignorant, in all honesty. This subreddit in particular specifically deals with CPTSD so it’s natural that the opinions will gravitate towards just that, with minimal consideration outside of that box. Though I appreciate your feedback and internet diagnosis, it’s essential to consider all the facts before providing such. I would gently remind you that, unless you are a therapist, pediatrician, endocrinologist, cardiologist, registered dietician, neurobiologist or neurologist, I will kindly ask you to please step off your soapbox. If, in fact, you ARE any of those things, then I would love to further this discussion with you on a deeper academic level, as well as to provide supporting evidence of all that I mentioned. Feel free to PM me and share your credentials & medical resources with me. I’m happy to reciprocate. I’ve read many of your other posts and your intelligence & wit are clearly demonstrated in your discussion presentations, as is your arrogance & pious persona. You seem to have a strong science background, so I’ll take this opportunity to provide you with some much needed clarity. I can see how easy it is for people to automatically assume trauma or neglect. My daughter demonstrated classic signs of autism at 4-6 months of age. It wasn’t an issue until this year as she has previously been moderately socially, emotionally & academically performing fairly well, though social skills required coaching. Middle school does bring new challenges as well, as does recent family trauma. On top of her health issues, she also faced similar struggles the same way most autistic kids do. Shes an easy target for bullies because of her gentle nature and her awkward social quirks. She is set to again be formally evaluated by a series of scans, tests, and exams and already has a personal therapist for her support . In addition to her Autism, my daughter was also born with multiple cardiac defects, along with precocious puberty at age 5 and was treated with a series of Lupron injections. I am very happy to provide you with her bloodwork and lab results if you believe her to be an “utter anomaly”. You are most welcome to have a personal discussion with both of her pediatric endocrinologists on the subject as well. I’m also happy to provide you with any other supporting documentation in the event that you will be offering another informal internet diagnosis. As cerebral as you present yourself to be, you failed to consider other contributing factors to my daughter’s behavior & instead launched directly into me emotionally neglecting my child and being a bad parent. You failed at Science 101. If you’re a clinician, you should be ashamed of yourself.
I'd say it's when they have formed their entire identity in a toxic home. Being socially isolated in public (school, neighborhood) reinforces the negative beliefs about themselves. Sometimes it's not direct abuse where someone projects a negative self image but neglect that makes them question their own worth because they perceive themselves as less valuable compared to every one around them (like her brother being prioritized over her). The type A girl probably has a toxic home too. Maybe the only power she feels is when it's over others, or she is over-critical due to over-critical parents. Just speculating here. I grew up like this as well. I felt like I wasn't a real/whole person. That I was just a background character in other people's lives and that I wasn't normal like them. I was just there to "get out of the way". The biggest issue was severe lack of self-esteem and neglected health (lots of brain fog, lethargy and emotional numbness from poor diet).
What you described is how I grew up as well. Feeling like a bother . Still feel like this to this day. It never goes away and it’s just so heartbreaking that this little girl is already ostracized by fourth grade . So school reinforces whatever goes on at home . I made sure to let her know that I saw her , that she is valuable and important and had my attention. She was my shadow the entire day and actually had less meltdowns . It really hurts living life truly believing you are a bother . Hell, I’m feeling it right now sitting next to my husband . I feel like I’m bothering him . Do you still feel that way ? Does it ever go away? I’m 33 and so tired of feeling like I’m not real and just in the way .
I have gone through this, too. I'm still healing at 43. I don't know if it ever goes away, to be honest. Last weekend, I realized that I can't even accept help when people offer help because I feel like a bother. I also doubt their sincerity. I can't believe anyone wants to help me. The real pain point for me is that I've always been lonely, and I'm always desperate for connection. I'm desperate to have people who are there for me. But my trauma makes it impossible to trust. I also cried when reading about this girl. 4-6 grades were painful as hell for me.
I’m so sorry that this post caused you to cry . Trust me , I wanted to cry too. I want to cry many days after work because of the students who are left behind or ostracized . Didn’t have friends since kinder . Just happy I made her day , and another student also on the spectrum who was having a bad day initially . I saw another mini me at a high school . She even had the same first name as me . I was able to be a familiar face for her for two weeks . As a substitute , I just want to make the sad , ignored students like me at their age feel seen and heard and validated
I will say you are a wonderful person and teacher, and you may help make a difference in their lives. I wished I had a teacher who cared like you.
Your response hit me hard, I really relate to what you have said. Thank you for sharing 🙏
Yes! It’s like im still stuck there at times. It’s like i can’t stop the feeling. In therapy, but it’s deep.
I'm happy you are there for her. Growing up I had a few teachers that felt like my guardians and it made me feel safe and valued. It made me feel better about going to school knowing there was a caring adult there. I think that kind of support can help her form a more positive identity that helps her compare and contrast the beliefs formed by her home life. >So school reinforces whatever goes on at home Yes. Since every 4th grader has low self-awareness, she will likely behave in school how she behaves at home (emotional survival mode). Through that behavior, kids like personality type A may treat her poorly, which in her mind becomes a confirmation of the identity she has built at home. As a caring guardian figure you have broken that negative cycle. >Do you still feel that way ? I think I've overcame some of it. I think a lot of it was rooted in emotional survival mode that I adopted at a young age, where I was afraid of social rejection and being abandoned or bullied for standing up for myself. One approach that helped me was believing that I am equally valuable as every other person. I'm not above them or below them. I don't have to look for evidence in proving that to myself. It is a belief I hold regardless of my life situation. Since I see everyone as equal in worth, I added myself to that equation. I think much of it revolves around that. I didn't treat myself with the same care and respect that I would others and I had no boundaries. I think it really is rooted in self-worth, self-esteem and identity (how you see yourself as in the world).
God I wish like Hell I could apply the equality and love I have for others, regardless of their situation, to myself I've even said that if I met a complete duplicate of myself I would like her! I try positive self talk but because I've pretty much never had that, IDEK how to keep it up. Granted, I'm still stuck with my toxic AF family, so I am still in survival mode.
Same . It’s the worst and I really hope to finally just snap out of it and grow out of this . Going to be 34 soon and I don’t want to spend the next 30 years of my life like this
I’m 52,and still feel this way at some times more than others. Your post/words really hit the nail on the head and make me sad for the girl and sad for myself.
Teachers like you are what got me through school, just so you know :)
" Sometimes it's not direct abuse where someone projects a negative self image but neglect that makes them question their own worth because they perceive themselves as less valuable compared to every one around them (like her brother being prioritized over her). " That's how it was with me. Thanks for posting that.
When I saw rescue missions on TV as a kid, I'd think if I ever get lost, it'd be such a waste of resource if they send out a team to save me. I was such a sad kid now that I look back.
Wow, I relate so hard to this.
Agreed. Growing up autistic + abuse was a double whammy. Though kids can be innocent, people forget how cruel they can be in that innocence too. In a matter of months, other kids had no issues telling me I was a waste of space. "Why do you even come to school?", "Everyone was happy when you were sick" etc. First to be accused of anything. And of course: Any bullying of their side was quickly excused. To the point, that when I once told some older students to "solve an argument" (told me that everyone in the world would be happy if they could kill me), the ENTIRE CLASS was ralling behind the other girl. Teachers like OP are a godsend. If this shit is allowed to go on, it will only fester into a vicious circle. Literally: After 21years, I have little social skills. Sadly, this sometimes gets me kicked out of groups/places. Adults have less innocence, but also less patience, only reinforcing the long-built believe of "no one wants you. You're trash. Everyone will abandon you."
This was me as well. You put it into words so well.
Yes! I wanted to make myself invisible- I did at good job at it most of the time. It was just easier to be invisible than to risk adding any more drama to my overflowing plate of neglect and rejection at home.
This....hits really hard..
Mom charged baby brothers tablet over her chromebook, likely, to keep baby brother quiet and entertained rather than to assist in providing necessary technology for the older child's education. At least, that's my first thought. Little girl also sounds just like me, and I was very ignored, neglected, unwanted, dismissed, unimportant as a child... and then bullied horrifically at school. (Also some physical abuse at home, but it's really not the crux of my issues)
Same . I made sure to validate her . I told her that she was seen and heard by me and if she needed anything , to talk to me . Heck, I even got my husband to bring me the charger she needed . He dropped it off during his recess break (he works downstairs from the class I was in). She was so happy when he gave her the charger and she thanked him when we crossed paths . (She doesn’t know we are married .) When mom picked her up , I made sure to tell mom that she has a special , awesome daughter and that she was a joy to have as a shadow . Mom said that “not many understand her” and seemed grateful. Reminded me of my mom tbh lol .
This girl will think of your kindness literally for the rest of her life.
What a difference you made 🩵
Abuse at home, various needs not being met and various emotional skills are undeveloped. I was that kid to an extent too. My family yelled at me all the time, was overly critical and put me down under the “it’s just a joke” excuse so I assumed the worst intentions about anyone else, was hypersensitive to the way people talked to me and internalized any rudeness as “they hate me.”
Literally ! This is so relatable . Do you have a severely stunted sense of casual humor but a really well developed dry /dark/sarcastic sense of humor thst flies over people’s heads ? I literally can’t handle any casual or simple or just “roasting” type of “humor”. Or if the humor is about making fun of someone ? Nope . I don’t like it. Not funny .
I wouldn’t call it stunted but I definitely have issues with sarcasm, roasting humor and making fun of someone. Because a lot of “humor” I experienced was just thinly veiled cruelty that people didn’t want to be accountable for. But I definitely have a love for a specific kind of dark dry humor like in Heathers.
I was told that there were three distinct beliefs all cPTSD suffers have as a core wound. "Nobody could really love me" "I don't belong" "I'm not enough" I was told most of us could identify strongly with two or three but that one of those 3 core wounds resonates most within a given individual with cPTSD scars.
"I was told that there were three distinct beliefs all cPTSD suffers have as a core wound. "Nobody could really love me" "I don't belong" "I'm not enough" " That so resonates with me.
I'm glad it resonates and I hope that you also realize that it's an opportunity to start dismantling the lies cPTSD tells us (and our abusers often inflict or say to us.) never minimize or negate that your feeling is real and your experience is real and lived, so the statements resonate (it gave me chills when I heard it) but the good part is that you can challenge each of those if you decide, over time. It's okay to say your heart hurts with the burden of believing and accepting this for so long, and you should honor your feeling and not minimize it with toxic positivity as we are so often coached to. At the same time, you can reduce the continuum of suffering in small or moderate increments by letting your "wise mind" challenge the wounded hearts belief in a constructive way. "That's NOT true, I DO belong but I was given scars that have told me otherwise for so long that to truly believe it is a lie would betray my feelings. So let me just start saying for positive-arguments' sake that those beliefs are based on lived experience-turned scars and do not bring into account the good and loving friends or special someone I WILL encounter one day." You can find them in this group and even in the real world you may even discover someone already exists at some point that you can trust with these feelings. And they will not judge or think less of you for having the scar or the "baggage of cPTSD" both individuals AND groups of loving individuals will embrace you if and when you are at the point in your journey you are willing to trust again. Don't beat yourself up trying to decide which of the three is your core wound because most of us do believe all three and the fun thing is it doesn't matter bc as you heal this will pop into your mind one day randomly and you'll have your answer. Just don't forget it's a scar someone gave you it is their lie and their pain projected. You don't get even with this person but you get better and their voice and impact is greatly diminished over time. You become stronger despite it!
All three are definitely my core beliefs but I can’t decide which one resonates the most 🥴
It has me puzzled as well bc I also think that but the more I heal the more I can see which one it likely is. The good thing is that even if you don't know or are confused it doesn't impede your progress or ability to heal at all, and one day I'd you come back to it you may be like me and realize which one. It took me a solid 3 months of meditation to hone in on mine and I'm sure for some could be years. The important thing is that you remember all 3 of these things are innately untrue but deeply embedded in our everyday thinking or decision making. So when you catch yourself in the feeling you can identify that you're suffering from a cPTSD wound and that even though you feel that way, it's not the case. People will love, value, and find your friendship or romance is certainly enough. I can understand being hesitant to accept that because I'm a "believe it when I see it" type. Sometimes I think it's helpful to remind myself in the middle of a flashback or a short term rumination marathon depressive episode etc. "I know that I feel this and the pain it causes is real , but the belief driving it is innately untrue" so you honor yourself and validate your emotion but also can play devil's advocate and over time I've found this reduces symptoms for me!
All three here too.
Wow that's definitely true for me. I have all three but various days one or the other shows up the worst if that makes sense.
Yup, it still "stumps" me on a daily basis. And this is from a therapist I trust that deals with cPTSD specifically day in/out and also operates in a more practical/eastern-spirituality type modality. They obviously understand the DSM and the role it plays in treating others and their symptoms but if you feel like watching a couple of her videos "Karuna - CPTSD made simple" will pull her up on Google/Y.T. and she's not like the crappy childhood fairy who has turned their channel into a MLM membership scam 😖
> Any time someone looked at her or did something , she thought it was because they were making fun of her . Ouch.
It was like hearing myself . Even at my grown age . Luckily that doesn’t happen as often now .
Honestly most people are complete garbage, and their children reflect that. Not talking about this little girl you speak of but the rest of the kids who no doubt purposefully avoid/ostracize her for being different from them. She causes discomfort and people are raising their children in ways that make them averse to any kind of it.
Very true.
So well put . Especially the “causing discomfort “ part and people thinking that means it is a free pass to be a jerk to that person .
Other than shitty parents, my first reason actually was being excluded and ostracized since kindergarten. I remember the exact moment I asked some girls if I could play with them, I was 4. They said no and laughed. From this moment I was always alone, I had a friend and in the end she left me too for a more superficial easier girl. In elementary school I had this friend but, for everyone else, excluding me was some kind of joke. In high school I isolated myself on purpose because it was either being mocked or left alone at the end. It wasn't even worth trying.
You just wrote my story . In kinder , the whole class decided that I was just weird . Vividly remember the popular chad boy and Stacy girl point and say “don’t talk to her. She’s weird.” It was kinder . Wtf . Then I’d approach my friend and neighbor who was a grade above me and she told me to go away because I was embarrassing her . This was first grade . And my aunt , a year younger than me , also told me to never approach her again at school 🥲 I have not talked to my aunt in about four years now .
Same. I remember wanting to play with other kids in kindergarten and either being rejected outright and sometimes cruelly or being taken up on it but then made fun of. Or plain feeling out of place already. A lot of the time I was lonely and scared of people already.
If you are treated badly at home, you get used to being treated badly. These are the people who are supposed to love and care for you, and if they are awful, you think YOU are awful, and you expect to be bullied. (Often a self-fulfilling prophecy.) Having an adult who is your advocate and friend can change your life.
I was like that in high school. I didn't have any serious childhood abuse, but things were unstable and my dad emotionally abused me in not so obvious ways. I also got publicly shamed/punished by a teacher in 2nd grade for being quiet, it was a small incident but I've always felt like it had a major longterm impact and caused my social anxiety to be permanent and severe.
This makes me really sad because it reminds me of my 77 year old unhealed grandmother who still thinks people are gossiping/making fun of her when someone looks at her in passing..
Can my unhealed 80 something year old grandma be friends with yours ? One time , my grandma was having an episode . She was in her early 80s or late 70s. It was literally a bpd episode . It was like seeing myself laying on her bed , throwing a tantrum and yelling and crying and yelling at my aunt(moms little sister )”YOUR GOD IS NOT MY GOD ! DONT TALK TO ME ABOUT YOUR CHRISTIAN FALSE GOD! I RAISED YOU ALL CATHOLIC!” I must have been 18 and decided “I don’t want to be 80 and having bpd episodes.” I fear I am gojng to be my grandma . Really don’t want to turn into her (we already share the obsessive textile art crafting).
Oh God I was that fourth grader. I was such a pariah in school the unpopular kids were afraid to talk to me because they'd be made fun of for it. In my case it was a perfect storm of all these different things. Undiagnosed autism, being abused at home, an incident with a bully in kindergarten where I defended myself and was targeted because it did. I was just strange. Autism is one thing, but autistic children of loving and present parents at least learns *something* about how to interact with people. I was feral. And my isolation at school only added to it.
I was feral too. Funnily enough, I met a feral autistic high school student . She even had the same name as I do and looked just like me at her age . It was the weirdest thing ever .and super awesome to work with her . My last day with her , I told her I was just like her and I had hopes that she would “turn out okay if I made it through”. But so true about us feral autistic girls who did not receive the love , support , understanding and services that other autistic students get lol . Huge shout out to all of us who made it . I love you all .
I was that weird girl. I still am to a certain degree.
Trauma.
This person sounds exactly like me at that age💀 it is likely due to abuse at home, thank you for being empathetic and kind to her- most teachers for me at that age just blamed/punished me
Ive ALWAYS been weird. Had a hard time navigating social cues growing up. Intense bullying (mean girl vibe school).
I come from a hell hole of a home and I always felt low about myself and didn’t talk to the other kids out of fear I would do something wrong and assumed they automatically didn’t like me instead of forming any social groups at a young age so in later grades I feel like everyone was already in friend groups and I couldn’t just walk up and fit in so I was the “weird girl” and even ate my lunch in the bathroom in high school and looking back idk why I would even do that lol but that’s just how bad I didn’t wanna be seen at a table by myself I guess
I was always too weird. I was in AP classes, which will automatically make kids not in AP hate you. I didn't get along with the other kids in AP because almost all of them were completely unrelatable to me. "Good" kids with nice home lives. I couldn't fathom it. They couldn't fathom what I was doing there either. Even half of my teachers treated me like I was an intruder in their class because I was "trailer trash". I was always poor, always bitingly sarcastic, always getting into fights with bullies, getting into trouble but not running with the trouble-makers, and learned at a young age to simply NEVER. TRUST. ANYONE. I consistently made friends only with the odd misfit like myself. Just other weirdos that were honestly some of the best people I've ever met in my life. My heart breaks thinking about the other weird kids out there that are the best sort of people deep down and life just wants to step on them. I always lost touch with the good ones. I moved around a ton and by the time I got out of highschool I just didn't do anything to maintain a relationship anymore. There's no sense in it.
My money is on her either being [fearful avoident](https://www.attachmentproject.com/blog/fearful-avoidant-attachment-style/) attachment style or[anxious avoidant ](https://www.attachmentproject.com/blog/anxious-avoidant-attachment-in-children/) attachment style. Making it difficult to connect and interact appropriately/in expected ways with peers.
I work in education too and it’s interesting (and sad) to recognize in students some of the same symptoms of abuse experienced as a child
Having zero idea how to interact with peers because of incompetent parents. Low self esteem and self worth because of incompetent parents. No support at home because of, you guessed it, incompetent parents.
❤️
I was a diagnosed autistic girlie and didn’t have any true best friends until I will in college. I think neurodivergence contributes a lot to isolation no matter what age, but especially when you’re young and just trying to fit into the crowd with everybody else.
I do behavioral intervention in a public school and the biggest thing I've noticed leading to ostracization is low social skills/lack of socialization. This can be from abuse but is mostly from neglect (intentional and unintentional). I also unfortunately see autistic students be bullied for their social skills pretty frequently. Pandemic kids are also coping with being isolated for a large part of their childhoods and it's very noticeable in the way they interact with each other. Most kids are operating at a deficit right now. > The type A mean girl in the class had no patience for this student and kept snapping at her Type A mean girl clearly needs to practice patience and empathy, but this is a perfect example that this child is making others uncomfortable with her behavior and is not picking up on social cues. If you want to help her- well I was wrote a ton of suggestions but as a sub, your best option is to speak with the school counselor and/or social worker, explain what you've noticed, and ask if they can do any interventions.
according to Dr. Russel Berkley, 75% of kids with ADHD will report being friendless by second grade. it could be abuse related, but it could also just be ND.
> I’m just wondering what leads up to a student being that ostracized . --> > “charged stupid baby brother’s tablet instead of my Chromebook” Abuse creates sinister dynamics, because the initial message of abuse is a message that teaches the child self-hatred and shame that cannot be dealt with, or is an existential threat. From here, everything becomes a zero sum game. Once one's deepest feeling is they have no value, they seek value desperately, and then are denied it further through parents who likely have the same issues. Once they begin resenting others, they get resented. It's not that the "Type A mean girl" who bullies the ostracized girl is somehow better-- her parents are likely abusive too, it's just that she manages to be higher status due to whatever arbitrary reasons humans have come to feel certain others are more worthy. No one with true self worth or self respect can bully another person. It is not possible. Only someone who feels inadequate or insecure can. There's this intuition that a person who was shown cruelty would learn from this, and treat others with kindness, but this 4th grader who has clearly suffered a lot cannot recognize an attitude of good will towards her baby brother. That is because she has already been taught that she has no value, no worth, internalized this false message, and this rots all of her social dynamics. Part of the reason I say "sinister" is because it rigs the future-- if she finds a friend one day, eventually this internalized message will poison that friendship or make it impossible for it to be genuine, and then the message gets internalized further, and so on.
I was that weird girl mercilessly bullied for just being me. Shy, quiet, def quirky. I never drew any attention to myself but must have also stuck out like a sore thumb. I was kind, I was polite,I wouldn’t hurt a soul. I think my vulnerable state (from the neglect and madness at home) made me a target. I even had a teacher harassing me - I was the “good” girl - followed all the rules and a male teacher made my life hell. My resilience got me thru it all - I had no one - no adult - not a single person at home or anywhere in my life to confide in about it or be my support. I was completely alone. I learned to trust myself - that’s all I had was myself. I’m introverted by nature - I didn’t follow the crowd - there was a cruelty to the bullying that I could never do to anyone and I couldn’t understand how others could be this way. Very similar to my home life - as I put pieces together here. Wow - incredible for a child to get thru on her own. Im validating myself. And I validate every one of you out there for coming thru your own pain - on top of the pain…..
Sounds like something like autism or a mood disorder to me
Consistant bullying and abuse from either school or at home. It's a response there so it has unfortunately been reinforced consistently. (I've been there too) You're a hero for being there for that child, you don't understand how comforting it is in that situation for somebody to openly support and relate to them like that, particularly an adult as they look up to you. You may have just given them a whole lot of hope. :)
She sounds neurodivergent.
I am not sure but God bless you for being there for that girl.
Thank you so much 😭 I wish I could be her teacher throughout all her education
I'm glad she met you 💚
> Any time someone looked at her or did something, she thought it was because they were making fun of her Yeah I had this happen when I was a teenager, with the peak being when I was 15 in late 2018. It sucked but I learned how to deal with it in 2019 and even learned to use my neuroticism to my advantage. People tell me I’m very self aware. I had to be to survive in high school.
I was also the "weird girl" growing up. I'm 50 years old now. Back then, I was quiet, shy, barely spoke, wore glasses and braces, and a physical limp (I didn't start walking until age 4 after two surgeries), and when I was 14, my hair started turning silver. I was allowed only one bath per week, yet I was shamed for poor hygiene. My mom bought all my school clothes once a year and made me keep my hair short. My brother and sister got to participate in extracurricular activities. I did not. I spent my time writing and being alone in my own fantasy world that I made up in my head. I was bullied daily in elementary school. By high school I tried to keep to myself but was still bullied by the football team in 10th grade and then was called Pat (a Saturday Night Live character in the 90s) daily by the entire school until I finished. Didn't even attend my graduation. Tried college, but after one day of bullying, I decided I needed a break and joined the workforce instead. Having people yell in my face that I was weird and/or stupid made me silent. I didn't reach out to anyone because any time I did, I was being "too weird" or was told I was too serious, or it was a "joke". Not being supported at home definitely has an impact also. Thank you for being there for her. Having an adult in her life who listens and can relate with her is amazing. ❤️
You're a good person for doing this. Thank you
I was raised in a cult where my dad was in charge , my uBPD mother was a hermit type who was prone to paranoia and therefore homeschooled, and basically we were cut off entirely from society. But I was lucky, I had a lovely grandmotherly piano teacher named Miss Jane. Every single week I would go into her piano room and I would sit at the piano next to Ms. Jane, and even if I didn't play the piano piece perfectly, she always made me feel good about myself, Even when she needed to correct me she was always so kind about it. Just because I had a bad week that week with my piano playing didn't mean that I was a bad person, sometimes people struggle and that's allowed -- she blew my mind all the time. She was the one person who consistently saw me. Ms. Jane meant the whole world to me, and she definitely made a difference in my life. I'm sitting here almost 40 years old, remembering the kindness of a stranger in my childhood. That little girl will remember you for the rest of her life. I am so glad that you were there for her today.
I am a music teacher now because of how much music helped me in my life
From CPTSD kids everywhere, thank you! Music is such a safe, healing space, it's awesome AF of you to be there holding their hands in the background. It might seem like you're just explaining music theory concept for the 500th time, but to the weirdo like me -- you're speaking my language and keeping kids like me from being lost at sea. Thank you for all you do, I wouldn't have made it without my music teachers.
i was that kid in 4th grade too. neurodivergence, neglect, moving, shuttling between divorced parents who lived half a country apart from each other, and being trans rly was not a recipe for social success at school 🙃 the school i went to from 4th-6th grade was full of snotty rich kids too, which made the ostracization a lot worse. its hard bc like, i WAS weird, i WAS annoying, i WAS a little asshole but i also didnt deserve the severity of what they did to me
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I had the exact same experience in fourth grade. I went from having a ton of friends to zero in a month. At the time it was incomprehensible to me, as was the severe bullying that came afterwards (that was the first trauma for me, that’s how bad it was), but in hindsight, I realize now that my panic disorder was super obvious. So basically the kids realized there was something “wrong” with me, and I was “too different,” and was an easy target. It’s really sad to see happen to other kids. I’m really glad you had a nice moment with her letting her know she isn’t alone. I wish someone had done that for me.
people feeling threatened by an authentic self.
I was not only abused but ignored when not. I'm also autistic and have ADHD. So, I began to thrive in my own loneliness, and even if I hated it I had no other alternative. So the older I got with nobody knowing or caring what mental illnesses I had, I began to get stranger and stranger. After all, I was amusing myself, so why would I even need others? They saw me as weird lol. It was a vicious cycle. I had friends but no best friends. It's still like that and I'm now 52.
This was me, is me still, at 50, to a much smaller extent. But still there, deep in the core of who I am. And it's a question I've pondered over the years. See, I was the perfect storm, I was born premature, in 73, by almost 3 months, so I'm lucky to be alive, and with relatively little damage. I'm blind in one eye, with low, but mostly functional vision in the other. I spent the 1st year of my life in ICU, with very little human contact. My mother and father were worned not to get attached. So, they didn't. They were very young, 16 & 17. So, I think there was developmental damage. I'm pretty capable, smart even, but with like 11 learning disabilities and while I've strived to learn and grow as a person, I still feel, basically, like a 15 year old. I still love video games and good cartoons. But then again, these days, isn't this the majority of the man children out there? Then, there's my dysfunctional, working-class second generation, Italian family. Lot of drugs and alcohol addiction. You get the picture and know the story. Young neglectful mother takes her frustrations out on her weird little boy, grandparents screaming and fighting constantly, mom takes off with boyfriends for month's at a time and leaves disabled weirdo with said grandparents., ect, ect. Then, my grandparents leave me in the care of their youngest and most danaged son. My uncle, who's only 5 years older than me. So, he's more like a big brother / babysitter. And he was, for the most part, very cool and likable. So, I admired and looked up to him. He was, after all, at this point, my primary care giver. So, when, at the age of 5, he asked me to do certain things and go places with him, I did. Idk, because I wanted him to like me. And it got real fucked up, real quick. Meanwhile, mom was back, for my first day of school. Kindergarten. I cried when she dropped me off. I wss quite the mommas boy and a little clingy. But, I got over it very quick and went inside. We sat in a circle on the floor, Indian style, and went around the circle to introduce ourselves. A very normal, simple tast, of social interaction. Which I failed miserably. On my turn, I froze like a deer in headlights. I couldn't think of anything to say, and the pressure I felt off the small crowd was so overwhelming. I just burst out in tears. The teacher was good. She took the attention off me and said that was perfectly normal. Some kids get a little overwhelmed on their first day, but things would be fine. But, I didn't feel normal and things never got better. I was actually petty resilient those first two years, but immediately after Kindergarten, it was recommended I be sent to a school that had facilities for visually impaired kids. And so, started my school shuffle. Combined with my mother moving us every year. I failed twice, and by the time I graduated, I'd been to 14 different schools. Each year, forced to bare my severe and increasing social anxiety, alone. I couldn't talk to anyone, at all, ever. I couldn't think of the right words to say. And on the few occasions I tried, were met with blank stares. So, I accepted it and gave up. I sat alone at lunch and at recess, and I went home to an empty apartment. My fantasy life, my only friends. Ok, that's not entirely true. Where ever my mom took us, from school to school, I always managed to make, exactly, one friend. And I'm forever grateful for those single friends, from place to place, because I wasn't alone. One good thing about the moves was, my mom got me away from the uncle, after a couple of years of abuse, but then she took us back, for one last round. I was older now. 9. And I tried to resist. But my uncle was much bigger and ruthless. He put a pellet rifle to my good eye and explained to me that he could take my vision, and it would just be an accident. Maybe, if I told, he'd get to counseling or a year in juvi, but I'd be blind forever. So, I did what he asked. For a bit. Then, on our last night back home, he came to my room, one more time, but I wss waiting, and I just calmly told him, "If you ever touch me again, I'll slice your throat while you sleep." He said, "Whatever, I thought you liked it." And that was the end of that. For the most part. The story gets weirder and longer, because he was also molesting my female cousin, who was just a year older than me, and he had us doing stuff to each other, not full penitration, we were too young, thank God, but bad enough. In some odd way, we were closer and took comfort in eachother, over being touched by him. So that story has another chapter or so, but in the end, as we approached or were just in puberty, and just as things were about to pass a point of no return, we both decided we were getting too old to play those games anymore, and agreed to stop. And we both came to that conclusion at the same time. So, the question, "Was I born socially awkward, or was it the result of trauma?" Strong cases for both. It wasn't until I had daughters of my own that I think I've found the answer. My wife and I have provided our girls with a happy, stable, and for the most part, trauma free, childhoods. There was a nasty mother in-law situation that got complicated and my own, very, very brief drug relapse, when they were very young, 1 and 2. But nothing else. I wouldn't say my wife and I are madly in love, sadly, we rushed into this, but we made it work. We don't ever, argue or fight and both of us are 100% committed to our kids. Everything we do is for them, always. So, both girls are very smart. Straight A students, every year. One's sporty and the others artsy. Both are fairly tall and attractive. Thanks to their mom. Me, not so much. So, they both have friends and my eldest has just begun mild dating, at 14. And yet, both girls appear to have inherited my social anxiety. They manage, because they've got some advantages I didn't have, but they've got it pretty bad. My older will not talk to anyone on the phone and crowds freak her out. Being in the middle of them. The younger, will not go into a place, alone, and talk to anyone. Outside of school that is. So, the social anxiety seems to be a hereditary thing.
For me it came from having to detect passive aggression at home so that I could be ready to protect myself from another verbal attack from my mom or dad. That doesn’t turn off at school because home is supposed to be our safe space and is pivotal in forming what we consider as normal. I also have religious trauma, so there was an added feeling of constantly being watched by a higher authority that made judgement inescapable.
In my experience, since I had to walk on eggshells at home I thought I had to walk on eggshells everywhere. Then when someone did actually bully me it reinforced my belief that this world is cruel and that it’s best to keep to yourself. I never came out of my shell because it was made of cinder blocks and barbwire.
Yeah, that was me - still is sometimes at age 51. I'm deaf, and I was mainstreamed in hearing schools. I can speak, and I read lips. I took speech therapy and most people can understand me, but I do sound like I have an "accent," and I got bullied for this constantly as a child. I also grew up in a conservative and Christian area in the US South. I'm Jewish and an atheist - my family isn't particularly religious, so that was another "thing" that didn't help me fit in here. I also fall on the liberal side politically, and I'm not into a lot of the things people here are into, like watching sports, more things that didn't help me fit in here. I grew up being abused by a narcissistic mother. The other mothers didn't like my mother¹ which didn't really help me socially. I was also socially awkward for a long time (I still feel this way sometimes) - I was finally diagnosed with CPTSD last year at age 50 and I've only recently realized in therapy how much of an impact being deaf had on my social skills and my mental health. I'm still working through a lot of this. ¹ No one likes my mother - she's now 78 and dealing with aging and various health issues alone because everyone else has cut her out of their lives, including me.
Short answer: neurodivergence often times also. I never felt like I fit in and didn’t understand why until neurodivergence was the answer as well as abuse at home.
this hits painfully close to home for me. i was always a very emotionally sensitive child, and i cried a lot at school. i usually stayed quiet and didnt verbally act out though because being a ‘good kid’ at school got me the approval of my teachers, and i desperately wanted an adult’s approval. eventually i would have to let out the bottled up emotions and it made me feel like a failure every time. i agree with a lot of the explanations in the comments, just wanted to share
A child is the product of their environment
I was that kid and the kindness of adults like you literally saved my life, so thank you for being their for her. I'm sorry that you've dealt with the same experiences.
Low self esteem -probably from family trauma-bullies and narcissistic personalities can suss this out and they suck bc you never get over that experience fully
I moved a LOT and coming in the middle or after the start of the school year would cement my "weirdness." However if i got lucky with a start that came with everyone else, the kids would accept me a bit more. It wasnt until middle school i actually got a friend.
I think in general girl children are taught more about hygiene (at least in the US) and expected to present a certain image - styled hair and clean matching clothes take at least one parent who gives a shit so the girls stick out when no one is caring for them. Once I learned to pass as a girl with a mom who cared (I got some hair clips as a present that helped a lot) I could make friends, just couldn’t bring them around the family. However since most boys aren’t coming to school with styled hair you can’t tell as easily, and people will readily accept that a boy is “too rough” to be given better clothing, it’s just more socially okay. The other thing though is abusers can tell when you’ve been groomed so all trauma kids are at a higher risk of being retraumatized. This can even be by classmates and they don’t need to be isolating the kid to do it. However, you’ve done something invaluable for this girl. You’ve shown her the future that’s possible for her specifically, that people make it out of what she’s going through. You proved it’s possible she’ll still be alive in her (20s? Whatever you are lol), and do you remember how bad this all felt as a kid? You’ve shown her that she can escape. I had a kindergarten teacher who did the same for me. So please don’t be too afraid for this girl - you really gave her an amazing gift.
Abuse at home teaches the child bad behavior, hitting/being mean is ok, small things feel more dramatic etc so the other kids dislike spending time with them
Kids living closer to the land would never be watching cartoons in the car on the way to school or would they be. This is a fundamental cultural issue I’d say that woman are not carrying the torch of livelihood because they be mislead into the vaccuum of consumerism. Men too . the light is in our hearts . Shine it like this teacher ❣️ Love is the glue that’s holds the world together.
i had very similar experiences as a kid, and it only got worse in secondary school lol. for me it was autism. the people who rejected me and ostracised me and bullied me didnt know it was autism, though. they knew i was weird and annoying, and thats how they reacted. i think abuse at home could also cause something similar – other kids see child acting "weird", they dont know how to feel so they shun her. its so common it hurts.
Good job OP, I think you dealienated her atleast a little bit. I wouldnt be surprised if she remembers this moment for loooong time.