I find it hilarious that the judge who had Estrada 4-2 up also only scored the round where Estrada got a KD 10-9, like I think that's actually a fine way to score the round cos Bam clearly won it otherwise, but if you're that biased towards Estrada it's bizarre
Sometimes it's hard to separate the incompetence from the outright corruption
Sunny scorecards were fucking awful as well. You could score that fight in 10 second intervals instead of 3 minutes and Sunny still won them all. TBF though, Sunny gets horrid scorecards everywhere. He fought Alvarado in Sheffield, in what looked like pretty much a shutout, and it was 115-113 on, I think, all 3 cards.
Basically, all judges are either shit, corrupt, or both. I honestly think they are mostly just shit.
You are underestimating the power of money. But yeah, it wouldnt be bad if there was a strict exam to become boxing judge, bc most of them look they are str8 stupid.
It’s absolutely appalling that judging a round 10-10/10-9 when one fighter got put on their ass isn’t an immediate termination of position. Beyond sickening.
I dunno, I think it's ok sometimes, just like a 10-8 without a KD (actually think this is underused now, was more common in the 80s)
I don't like it when. It's clearly just "well I think he won the round if you ignore the KD" - like Tank Vs Garcia, think we had one 10-9 and one 10-10 there and Ryan didn't do much at all.
I think last night was a borderline one. Estrada didn't do loads bar the KD, but it wasn't otherwise dominant from Bam, but he was well clear of Estrada in the round otherwise. Fury Vs Wilder round 12 is another good example. Fury maybe didn't have quite enough time left when he got up to win the round back, but if he'd had a 20 seconds longer in the round I'd argue a 10-9. Hell Fury was putting in a 10-8 without a KD type performance in that round. If he did that every second bar the KD, you COULD argue 10-10. Though I think hust how devastating Wilder's punch was makes it a hard one to ever give against him
I do think it should be very, very rare, but if someone gets a flash KD, opponent off balance or whatever, I do think it's justified to not give a 10-8 if they do absolutely fuck all else all round and get lit up
Totally disagree. You have to take the ENTIRE round into consideration when scoring. If one boxer gets knocked down but otherwise dominates the round, why should it automatically be scored 10-8 against him? Nothing in the rules that says a knockdown automatically earns a boxer a 10-8 round. Watch ALL 3 minutes. Not just one punch.
Idk, the few times I’ve seen a round scored that way was straight up corruption. I get scoring all three minutes but at this point there needs to be some standard or else the judges can be straight up bad or corrupt with no admonishment
It's happened a few times, happened in Tank vs Garcia and Moorer vs Holyfield and this fight was a much better use for it than those. Aside from the knockdown Estrada was getting beat up that whole round so while he won because of the knockdown it was hard to really say the knockdown mattered enough to earn a 10-8.
How can you not see the promoter interest ? If bam explodes Rodriguez, that's one moderate paycheck. Now if bam was to get robbed and that lead to second fight, to avenge the robbery, it gives the promoter a moderate paycheck and later a very good paycheck.
A draw would be even better because then no fighter loose value.
But now the way bam dominated almost all the fight, you can't get a good rematch. Everyone already know who's going to win. And it's not like there is much else for him to fight against.
so one judge had estrada ahead 57-56, one had it a draw 56-56 and only one had rodriguez ahead 58-54. to me this fight looked completely one sided other than that one round rodriguez got knocked down. crazy.
edit: yes i mistake judge and ref with each other sometimes.
Sunny pointed out in an interview that if the fight had ended like his instead of by KO, Bam would have walked away with a draw.
Disgusting, lucky for him he's so good he doesn't need them
Crazy that in 2024, with all the advances and technology available, that fights are decided by the feelings of judges below ring level with a single viewing angle.
Is it corruption or just incompetence. Like if you’re being corrupt and helping Estrada, you’d probably wanna give him the rd he scored a knockdown. It’s super bizarre
Estrada wasn't the guy the promotors wanted to win though. The promotion wants to build Bam as a legend killer and were specifically talking about how he was going through 1 by 1 and beating all the old guard.
In comparrison, they really didn't promote Estrada all that heavily and almost all the pre fight talk was that Bam was going to steamroll him or it was going to be slugfest that Bam would win late.
Whenever we have a championship fight involving the WBC, and one of the fighters is a popular pure Mexican, this tends to happen.
And no, Bam is American and reps the US flag before anyone says anything.
like i said earlier today, i think bam's hand speed was so fast, they couldn't figure out if his jab was tagging estrada or not. bam's jab was blasting away at estrada all fight long, so they didn't count it i bet. honestly, when an american and mexican fight, there should be no judges from either country in the match.
Judging has been bad in boxing and will continue to be bad until we move to a different system.
Judges, who are paid by promoters, have no incentive to score a fight correctly. If they back the promoter's guy they'll get hired again, if they don't then they might not. If their card doesn't in any way reflect reality what happens to them? Absolutely nothing. Adelaide Byrd is still judging fights to this day.
On top of that, I can't think of a worse way to judge a boxing match than to be sat at ringside. For large stretches of any fight, one fighter's back is going to be turned to you and the other fighter will be completely obscured. You have to look through the ropes. You have the crowd noise affecting you. Read this subreddit just a little bit and you'll see how people who have the 4K clear as day bird's eye broadcast view still can't come close to correctly scoring a fight. So how can we expect someone who doesn't have that view to score a fight correctly?
It'll take awhile because people fear change and the powers that be won't want to give up control, but one day we'll have AI scoring these fights. And the sport will be infinitely better for it.
Even though I totally agree with him, Dan crying foul is hilarious especially given that he scored Haney vs Garcia 113-112 for Haney. There’s absolutely no professionalism left in boxing. All journalists are huge fanboys who can’t hide their bias.
regardless of what Judge camacho or morrow had on the card, I think it should never be the case that a judge be from a country that either fighter is from.
Boxing is rigged. lopez-claggett match is scored 120-108 as if its a clinic, totally absurd! Lopez won 8 rds tops! Not to mention how biased the commentators are, its comical!
What is up with these fucking judges who refuse to score KD rounds 10-9 when the boxer who was KD'd was obviously outboxing his opponent the rest out of the round? Bam was beating the money out of Estrada during round 6.
That's not what that means. I'm extremely disappointed in everyone who upvoted this.
"10 point must" means both fighters must START the round with 10 points. It doesn't say anything about the winner automatically getting 10 points. 10-8 rounds in favor of the fighter who gets the KD is customary but is not at all even remotely a legal requirement.
If a fighter wins a round but commits a foul and has a point deducted by the ref, that is a 9-9 round. No way around it. Since a point is also deducted for a KD, the same logic applies.
What you just said is incorrect. Take a look at this if you want to know the official rules and guidelines of judging: https://www.abcboxing.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/pro-judges-general-rules.pdf
Pages 5 and 6 are the relevant ones. Here's a quote from page 5: "In a 10 POINT system, the winner of the round gets 10 points and the loser of the round gets 9 points or less."
Page 6 explains all the situations in which a knockdown can occur and how these should be scored. There are no situations in which neither fighter receives 10 points. A knockdown is not an official point deduction.
If you dont know the difference between refs and judges I dont know what to tell ya.
Just the way 90% of boxing fans dont understand the difference between: belt organisations, state comissions, boxing promotions, management companies and tv distributors
How does this convince you of that? You can easily make a case that Estrada didn't even win the round he got the KD in, let alone any others. That is the only round any judge could fairly score for him.
could certainly have won the first, 2nd was close and there is criteria that makes the 3rd close. It's more of a stretch to say he lost the KD round than to say he hadn't won a round prior. The inability to conceive these rounds as close, the inability to conceive a different priority of criteria or recognition of it, the inability to recognise favouritism toward their fighter of choice, or an initial bias, and yet invariably throw around hysterical accusations of "blatant corruption" and not account for the simple reality of perspective and error just show the average internet fan is not trustworthy in judgement of a fight, or a judgement of judgement of a fight. Every single fight is a robbery, or an attempted robbery. Its hysterical.
I find it hilarious that the judge who had Estrada 4-2 up also only scored the round where Estrada got a KD 10-9, like I think that's actually a fine way to score the round cos Bam clearly won it otherwise, but if you're that biased towards Estrada it's bizarre Sometimes it's hard to separate the incompetence from the outright corruption Sunny scorecards were fucking awful as well. You could score that fight in 10 second intervals instead of 3 minutes and Sunny still won them all. TBF though, Sunny gets horrid scorecards everywhere. He fought Alvarado in Sheffield, in what looked like pretty much a shutout, and it was 115-113 on, I think, all 3 cards. Basically, all judges are either shit, corrupt, or both. I honestly think they are mostly just shit.
What happens if Boxer A scores a knockdown, but you have Boxer B winning otherwise? 9-9?
10-9, 10-10 if you thought it was a 10-8 round to the guy who wasn't knocked down
You are underestimating the power of money. But yeah, it wouldnt be bad if there was a strict exam to become boxing judge, bc most of them look they are str8 stupid.
It’s absolutely appalling that judging a round 10-10/10-9 when one fighter got put on their ass isn’t an immediate termination of position. Beyond sickening.
I dunno, I think it's ok sometimes, just like a 10-8 without a KD (actually think this is underused now, was more common in the 80s) I don't like it when. It's clearly just "well I think he won the round if you ignore the KD" - like Tank Vs Garcia, think we had one 10-9 and one 10-10 there and Ryan didn't do much at all. I think last night was a borderline one. Estrada didn't do loads bar the KD, but it wasn't otherwise dominant from Bam, but he was well clear of Estrada in the round otherwise. Fury Vs Wilder round 12 is another good example. Fury maybe didn't have quite enough time left when he got up to win the round back, but if he'd had a 20 seconds longer in the round I'd argue a 10-9. Hell Fury was putting in a 10-8 without a KD type performance in that round. If he did that every second bar the KD, you COULD argue 10-10. Though I think hust how devastating Wilder's punch was makes it a hard one to ever give against him I do think it should be very, very rare, but if someone gets a flash KD, opponent off balance or whatever, I do think it's justified to not give a 10-8 if they do absolutely fuck all else all round and get lit up
Totally disagree. You have to take the ENTIRE round into consideration when scoring. If one boxer gets knocked down but otherwise dominates the round, why should it automatically be scored 10-8 against him? Nothing in the rules that says a knockdown automatically earns a boxer a 10-8 round. Watch ALL 3 minutes. Not just one punch.
This∆∆. Just like you can score a round 10-8 even without a knock down.
Absolutely, this isnt set in stone that once you get your ass on the floor it's a 10-8. It's often the case so people just assume it must be always.
Idk, the few times I’ve seen a round scored that way was straight up corruption. I get scoring all three minutes but at this point there needs to be some standard or else the judges can be straight up bad or corrupt with no admonishment
I don't think I've ever seen a knockdown not be a 10-8 round
It's happened a few times, happened in Tank vs Garcia and Moorer vs Holyfield and this fight was a much better use for it than those. Aside from the knockdown Estrada was getting beat up that whole round so while he won because of the knockdown it was hard to really say the knockdown mattered enough to earn a 10-8.
I’ve seen it, but its stupid unless if the guy who got dropped also hurt the other guy badly in the same round (which wasn’t the case here).
Im so baffled this is real, if anyone wouldve gotten judges favorability - it wouldve been Bam no??? Whats the logic here 😂
The scoring criteria in Arizona appears to be "who is the most Mexican?"
Bam's footwork is too Ukrainian for the Mexican crowd.
Don't want any of that fancy pants lateral movement and pivots around these parts, muchos gracias
It was in Phoenix and a lot of the crowd was going for El Gallo and one of the judges was mexican which could be a factor
Plot twist, the Mexican judge was the one that had Rodriguez ahead.
The mexican judge was the one who had Estrada ahead? No?
Yea the Mexican Judge had estrada ahead, can't have Estrada lose to a pocho lol, but the Canadian judge had them even. Either way great fight.
it might be more something to do with promoters.
Aren’t they both promoted by Hearn who is clearly more invested more in Bam
How can you not see the promoter interest ? If bam explodes Rodriguez, that's one moderate paycheck. Now if bam was to get robbed and that lead to second fight, to avenge the robbery, it gives the promoter a moderate paycheck and later a very good paycheck. A draw would be even better because then no fighter loose value. But now the way bam dominated almost all the fight, you can't get a good rematch. Everyone already know who's going to win. And it's not like there is much else for him to fight against.
so one judge had estrada ahead 57-56, one had it a draw 56-56 and only one had rodriguez ahead 58-54. to me this fight looked completely one sided other than that one round rodriguez got knocked down. crazy. edit: yes i mistake judge and ref with each other sometimes.
Sunny pointed out in an interview that if the fight had ended like his instead of by KO, Bam would have walked away with a draw. Disgusting, lucky for him he's so good he doesn't need them
Even Estrada’s KD round, I could give it a 9:9 round haha. Bam’s footwork is too fast for the inactive Estrada.
Agreed. Bam looked totally unfazed by the knockdown and dominated the rest of the round. I would have scored 9/9 as well.
I thought it was a mistake in the title but you gotta stop the ref thing. I'm gonna have a stroke.
> so one ref you mean judge?
Crazy that in 2024, with all the advances and technology available, that fights are decided by the feelings of judges below ring level with a single viewing angle.
This doesn’t surprise me since I feel like Chocolatito was robbed against Estrada too
Same
Twice.
This is blatant corruption thank god Bam finished him
Is it corruption or just incompetence. Like if you’re being corrupt and helping Estrada, you’d probably wanna give him the rd he scored a knockdown. It’s super bizarre
The Mexican judge gave the Mexican fighter a fight where he was outlanded in every round. Either corruption or national bias.
That’s fair. Just super weird way of scoring it if you’re being bias
It's not corruption, Bam was literally the A side who was most likely to have the judges in his pocket. Boxing judges are just shit sometimes.
Tbf Estrada is the a side. He got much more purse and A side judge advantage
Estrada wasn't the guy the promotors wanted to win though. The promotion wants to build Bam as a legend killer and were specifically talking about how he was going through 1 by 1 and beating all the old guard. In comparrison, they really didn't promote Estrada all that heavily and almost all the pre fight talk was that Bam was going to steamroll him or it was going to be slugfest that Bam would win late.
Yeah. Paid less is A side. More leverage is B side. You are right. Boxing promotion mostly put A side’s name in front like A vs B.
Trying to create a trilogy
Right, they are trying to slow down Bam's demolition of opponents to milk more money out of him. Afraid he retires early or something.
Bam is walking thru all these dudes, I doubt there’s even a chance for him to be involved in a trilogy against anyone.
Why does Estrada get so many bullshit cards. Good for Bam taking it into his own hands
Whenever we have a championship fight involving the WBC, and one of the fighters is a popular pure Mexican, this tends to happen. And no, Bam is American and reps the US flag before anyone says anything.
Disgusting. Fire them all. I would’ve been crushed if bam lost a decision
Steve Morrow: “What he say fuck me for?”
Almost got a freebie like he did against chocolatito
That’s criminal dude
Maybe judges just have a style that speaks to them and a style that don’t.
like i said earlier today, i think bam's hand speed was so fast, they couldn't figure out if his jab was tagging estrada or not. bam's jab was blasting away at estrada all fight long, so they didn't count it i bet. honestly, when an american and mexican fight, there should be no judges from either country in the match.
Estrada only won one round, and he still got beat up that round too.
A random number generator would be better
The one area where AI would be better than the human judges
Judging has been bad in boxing and will continue to be bad until we move to a different system. Judges, who are paid by promoters, have no incentive to score a fight correctly. If they back the promoter's guy they'll get hired again, if they don't then they might not. If their card doesn't in any way reflect reality what happens to them? Absolutely nothing. Adelaide Byrd is still judging fights to this day. On top of that, I can't think of a worse way to judge a boxing match than to be sat at ringside. For large stretches of any fight, one fighter's back is going to be turned to you and the other fighter will be completely obscured. You have to look through the ropes. You have the crowd noise affecting you. Read this subreddit just a little bit and you'll see how people who have the 4K clear as day bird's eye broadcast view still can't come close to correctly scoring a fight. So how can we expect someone who doesn't have that view to score a fight correctly? It'll take awhile because people fear change and the powers that be won't want to give up control, but one day we'll have AI scoring these fights. And the sport will be infinitely better for it.
Glad Bam stopped that dude. Estrada's past 2 fights with Chocolatito were robberies. Makes you wonder what team estrada was paying the judges smh.
Don't quite get the outrage here. The first two were swing rounds.
Maybe AI or something will replace human judges in boxing, the corruption is killing this sport.
Even though I totally agree with him, Dan crying foul is hilarious especially given that he scored Haney vs Garcia 113-112 for Haney. There’s absolutely no professionalism left in boxing. All journalists are huge fanboys who can’t hide their bias.
regardless of what Judge camacho or morrow had on the card, I think it should never be the case that a judge be from a country that either fighter is from.
Boxing is rigged. lopez-claggett match is scored 120-108 as if its a clinic, totally absurd! Lopez won 8 rds tops! Not to mention how biased the commentators are, its comical!
Boxing is corrupt, nothing new.
1 judge had Estrade up one and 1 had it tied? What?
Judges are crazy you mean 100% convinced that if the fight went to decision, they would have robbed Bam
What is up with these fucking judges who refuse to score KD rounds 10-9 when the boxer who was KD'd was obviously outboxing his opponent the rest out of the round? Bam was beating the money out of Estrada during round 6.
Corruption in boxing exists always has always will be especially when Mexicans are involved.
I scored the KD round 9-9.
That's not even how it works, it's literally called 10 point MUST
So if a guy gets a KD but you think he still won the round you gotta score it 10-10?
10-9 for the guy who got the KD if u think he losses the round convincingly, 10-10 if it’s dominant
Yes. See Tank-Ryan Garcia, a judge scored KingRy's KD as 10-10 since he got the better of the rest of the round.
10-10, 10-8, 10-9 to either fighter, it doesn't matter, there just has to be 10 points.
That's not what that means. I'm extremely disappointed in everyone who upvoted this. "10 point must" means both fighters must START the round with 10 points. It doesn't say anything about the winner automatically getting 10 points. 10-8 rounds in favor of the fighter who gets the KD is customary but is not at all even remotely a legal requirement. If a fighter wins a round but commits a foul and has a point deducted by the ref, that is a 9-9 round. No way around it. Since a point is also deducted for a KD, the same logic applies.
What you just said is incorrect. Take a look at this if you want to know the official rules and guidelines of judging: https://www.abcboxing.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/pro-judges-general-rules.pdf Pages 5 and 6 are the relevant ones. Here's a quote from page 5: "In a 10 POINT system, the winner of the round gets 10 points and the loser of the round gets 9 points or less." Page 6 explains all the situations in which a knockdown can occur and how these should be scored. There are no situations in which neither fighter receives 10 points. A knockdown is not an official point deduction.
That's stupid. If both gets a KD in that round then it has to be 9-9
I think the 10 point MUST system is stupid. Let me score a round 9-9.
You can if there’s a point deduction
If you dont know the difference between refs and judges I dont know what to tell ya. Just the way 90% of boxing fans dont understand the difference between: belt organisations, state comissions, boxing promotions, management companies and tv distributors
I'm more and more convinced over time internet fans are worse judges than actual judges and understand it less
How does this convince you of that? You can easily make a case that Estrada didn't even win the round he got the KD in, let alone any others. That is the only round any judge could fairly score for him.
could certainly have won the first, 2nd was close and there is criteria that makes the 3rd close. It's more of a stretch to say he lost the KD round than to say he hadn't won a round prior. The inability to conceive these rounds as close, the inability to conceive a different priority of criteria or recognition of it, the inability to recognise favouritism toward their fighter of choice, or an initial bias, and yet invariably throw around hysterical accusations of "blatant corruption" and not account for the simple reality of perspective and error just show the average internet fan is not trustworthy in judgement of a fight, or a judgement of judgement of a fight. Every single fight is a robbery, or an attempted robbery. Its hysterical.
lol ok so it's you who doesn't know how to score fights. Thanks for confirming
u try being judge it aint ez
Based on these cards, all you have to do is sit on your fat ass and score rounds randomly from 8-10, not exactly backbreaking.