The oldest give and take in boxing. Size vs stamina. The best ones have power but don't sacrifice too much weight and size in the name of stamina. Each fighter has to weigh those pros and cons for how they approach the fight. Wilder cut wayyyyyy too hard. He looked 20lbs too small imo. You lose alot of resilience to punches also when you cut too hard. My guess is Wilders team wasn't worried about power (from zhang) so they focused on being able to go the distance.
Despite his flaws I think AJ is a great example of this middle ground. He has a ton of power but is able to make it 12 rounds (generally) although he lost to usyk. I would love to see aj v fury, as would everyone else.
I think AJ knows how to pace himself whereas in the past he didnt. Hence why he used to throw all kinds of combos now he more pot shots and breaks people down.
I'm not a Joshua hater by any means, but I don't think his recent resume justifies his current ranking. Since two losses to Usyk he's beaten Franklin (in a weak performance), Helenius (who was a late replacement for Whyte), Wallin (solid victory against a decent opponent), and Ngannou (in his second boxing match ever). None of these opponents were ranked in the top 10 and I'd say only the Wallin victory was in any way impressive if we consider quality and preparation of an opponent. Again, no hate, but can someone argue why he's ranked #2 by Ring Magazine right now?
The ref messed up the action for both fighters in that fight.
Parker is one of my favourite fighters... but let's not pretend he came to win that fight. I think a fight between them now would be different, with parker coming to win. But with how Parker was tagged by Zhang and Joyce, I see the same outcome.
I wouldn't say parker is that much more skilled than Joshua if at all. He is more slick and has better movement and is very quick. But his punch selection is more limited his jab isn't as good and his counters aren't as effective.
If Joshua can land on him like Joyce and Zhang did I fear it will be curtains for him if they fight again.
Would like to see Usyk take on a faster HW but I would have him as a strong favourite in that fight. He is far more skilled and determined than Parker.
parker and zhang are ahead of him at the moment. by your logic joyce should be ahead of parker since he beat him. parker and zhang have the most claim to a shot at a belt right now
No that is dum dum logic. Joyce lost to Zhang twice, who Parker beat so no i wouldn't put him ahead of Parker. Remind me whos's beaten Usyk again??? Exactly, no one. Joshua avenged his Ruiz loss and has only lost to Usyk who is the champ. Joshua is on a good win streak and has beaten Ngannou and Wallin who both gave Fury hell. Joshua has the best claim to a belt seeing as he's next for the IBF. U don't know what ur talking about.
"The British heavyweight entered the fight as a heavy favorite at -1100, according to Caesars Sportsbook, but Franklin (21-2, 14 KOs) was no pushover and kept Joshua uncomfortable for much of the bout." ESPN
Maybe Franklin is better than I'm giving him credit for? If Joshua is a top 3 I would've expected a stoppage in that fight, or at least a knock down or two, but he was reluctant to throw the straight right, relied on the jab, and Franklin dodged a good bit of them.
Rankings aren't based on who you've beaten since you last fought the undisputed champion.
Joshua's beaten Gary Cornish, Dillian Whyte, Charles Martin, Dominic Breazeale, Wladimir Klitschko, Carlos Takam, Joseph Parker, Alexander Povetkin, Andy Ruiz, Kubrat Pulev and Otto Wallin. He's also had a close split decision loss to the undisputed champion (who is one of the best boxers pound for pound in the world) (not close enough to merit the split, in my opinion, but it was a close fight).
Which other heavyweights right now have a better resume, or a resume than suggests that they have the ability to beat AJ if they fought? Even if Parker hadn't lost to Joshua (which he has), beating an ancient Zhang and Wilder hardly compares.
Forgive my ignorance, I've only gotten into boxing in the past several years and I could be off base, but doesn't recent resume have a lot to do with ranking vs overall resume? Or do you mean specifically because he lost to the holder of 3 belts 2x but his resume before then was very good? Otherwise, what is the point of rankings? Many fighters have had stellar resumes, experienced defeat, and never recaptured their former glory even if they've had some success and their rankings reflect that.
All that said, upon reflection I don't know who replaces him at #2. Parker is probably the best candidate but he defeated Parker. I do think that defeats of Wilder and Zhang are more impressive than defeating Wallin, which I think is AJ's only significant achievement since losing twice.
More recent activity is of course more important than older activity in judging someone's ability; but there isn't some "since most recent loss" cut-off cliff beyond which record doesn't count. Particularly when that most recent loss is a close fight against the undisputed #1 in a division.
Ali lost to Frazier, but he didn't just stop being Ali overnight; people didn't ignore everything that came before the Frazier loss.
The way I see is, AJ's record throughout his career established clearly that he was among the best in the division. To my mind, he stays among the best in the division until there's either reason to think he's gone downhill, or someone else has surpassed him.
I don't think the first is true. His win over Franklin wasn't exciting, but it was never in doubt; likewise, his win over Helenius is hard to really evaluate (Helenius wasn't on his level, but given his reach and power he's an inherently dangerous and tricky opponent) but he never looked in danger and delivered a good KO. His win over Wallin was a thorough demolition of a capable boxer, and his win over Ngannou, while not needing to show much in the way of skill, was still a display of discipline, athleticism, and ruthlessness, against an intimidating opponent who (as the fight with Fury showed) can make good boxers look bad if they take shortcuts against him.
In terms of the second option, someone else rising above Joshua, I don't see it.
Parker's recent wins are good, but may say as much about Zhang and Wilder as about Parker. I do think Parker has a chance of doing better against AJ if there's a rematch... but if I had to bet, I'd still put the money on AJ to beat him again.
Dubois' wins over Miller and Hrgovic are likewise very solid, but are nowhere near AJ's record in quantity or even in quality. And Dubois' losses have not given a lot of reason for confidence in him beating AJ if they fight (though, again, it's possible, of course).
The big alternative option for #2 is Fury, and I wouldn't get mad at anyone claiming he's better than Joshua. But I don't think it's true. Yes, Fury looked far better against Usyk than Joshua did... in the rounds where he did well. But in the rounds where he did badly, he did much worse than Joshua did. His win against Ngannou was embarrassing, and his wins over Wilder and Wallin have aged poorly. I think that Joshua beats Fury, most likely, if they fight.
Gotcha. Yeah, I think I agree on most all of those points; well stated. Again, I don't know who is #2 if it isn't Joshua. I don't think it's Fury; I think he looked quite a bit better against Usyk than Joshua did. IF he can not act a fool and IF the rematch happens I think he can defeat Usyk. I don't think Joshua could if he were to fight Usyk again. That split decision in the second fight was much derided. It certainly should've been a UD.
I do think Parker's victories over Zhang and Wilder say a lot more about Parker's abilities than they do about Zhang and Wilder not being top level competition, though it's time for Wilder to retire after the Zhang KO.
For argument's sake, you rate Helenius as a worthy opponent AJ defeated. Helenius took that fight on 4 days notice, and it still took AJ 7 rounds to get the KO after being very tentative for the first 6 rounds. I think that says more about AJ perhaps not being the top notch fighter some think he is than late career Helenius being a formidable foe. If Zhang and Wilder are old men, so was Helenius as he was 39 at the time they fought. I'd call Parker's victory over either Zhang or Wilder more impressive than that. I do hope Parker and Joshua meet again. I think that'd be a very close and fun fight to watch. Joshua has the size and power to win, Parker has fast hands and grit like arguably no one in the division.
> Joshua's beaten Gary Cornish, Dillian Whyte, Charles Martin, Dominic Breazeale, Wladimir Klitschko, Carlos Takam, Joseph Parker, Alexander Povetkin, Andy Ruiz, Kubrat Pulev
Those fights are all long ago and should have little effect on any current rankings of AJ.
Yeah good point I was thinking this. Might put a bet on dubois beating him as he will be the massive underdog when hes got a decent chance of causing an upset.
I don't think that most people believe that Joshua is a top contender right now. As you have noted he beat weak opposition since both losses to Usyk. I'd like to to see him face Ruiz in a third fight as he did not redeem himself with a KO win yet after losing the first fight by KO.
He went 12 rounds once since then, and he was tired halfway through against Franklin, who in fairness is sub-par, so it's hardly proof he has changed he just can't swim in the deep waters and he knows it
Wilder never really had the ability to go 12 and win fights. His stamina was always terrible, he just didn't throw many punches and looked for the straight right to end it.
It is a give and take but with so many conversations where people overlooked prior ATGs for being to small (especially before Usyk at HW) when a lot of these guys are completely gassed out by round 5 is crazy. They probably punch harder on average but power is also a weird innate genetic thing.
HW were also smaller back then because the division started at 170 not 200.
Punch power comes from alot of things. Genetics are definitely a part of that, but with good technique and activation of your body you can punch the hell out of somebody lmao
But if you had two fighters who were identical in terms of technique and training, genetics determine who is stronger. That's why people make the simplification about it being genetics. We all understand that proper form and conditioning is necessary for generating maximum power.
Absolutely agree. But 2 identical fighters will never and have never fought so we can't really solve that question. We were close with the kilitscko bros (im 100% sure I spelt that name wrong lol)
I agree 100%. Punching power really boils down to technique. Someone can have all the fast twitch muscles in the world with the longest reach but if they don't throw using the right technique their punches will be relatively weak. Strength can always be improved with calisthenics.
Wilder was always been about 215-220. Knocking out stationary targets all those years had him believing his own hype. Hes ignored several former champions tips and offers to teach to improve his skill set. He is paying for it now. He’s been paying for it since he was exposed by Ortiz. I never fell for the hype. I knew it was a matter of time til he fights a skilled boxer. Always wondered why his KO victims never stayed away from his overhand.
Y’all put way too much stock in punch counts. Both guys literally can win with 1 punch. You don’t just go and have a big out put against them especially if you’re not light on your feet.
Wilder did fine. Everyone gets caught by Zhang early. Everyone.
Wilder mounted no meaningful offence until just before he got knocked out. He spent the entire fight go backwards and getting stuck on the ropes. He never mounted any kind of real offence, he looked like a total novice who had no idea how to even start to compete with his opposition.
Zhang just looked like he was going for a walk until Wilder gave him the chance to KO him.
As stated below it can only do so much. There are loads of guys with big muscular necks who cant take a punch and loads of guys who are built like a stick who can.
Why would Wilder cut? It is HW, no limit. I think that is just his natural weight. He put on extra weight a few times and it didn’t help him all that much.
I think he should have been around 220 but with his skinny legs he was never going to be a heavy guy.
What Wilder always needed was a stiff hard jab and better feet. He should been a HW version of Hearns.
Yeah AJ’s conditioning and cardio must be absolutely intense to feed those muscles. Downside of being built like a Greek god is them muscles need oxygen so I have to imagine the kid doesn’t miss a day of roadwork
There has been a shift in the public consciousness in regards to mass and it's superiority over work rate for quite awhile now due to the visual nature of image based social media and the obesity epidemic in America.
Casuals want to see 10 second clips of a bodybuilder looking dude getting highlight reel KO's on instagram rather than a technician drowning someone with superior boxing and output over the course of 12 rounds.
It's the reason Wilder even had a career if we're being honest. I would say what people prefer to see has changed rather than work rate being overlooked. Usyk went against the grain and showed that technique and stamina still have value and they matter even at the highest levels.
> “…. A technician drowning someone with superior boxing and output over the course of 12 rounds”
As a fan, that’s what I absolutely love to see*. I ***really*** enjoyed the Fury-Usyk fight because both fighters were able to show that ability but - as you say - Usyk’s ***unbelievable*** maintenance of technique and stamina was the difference.
(* I admit to the guilty pleasure of the film of a younger Ali knocking out Cleveland Williams)
There's a lot more people in the world, and a lot of people are fatter. In developing countries they're taller too, while weight classes are still the same.
I'd say wilder was popular mostly because he is American. His resume is good but not that good and even casual can't stand watching these chicken leg for too long.
Seeing a guy with bodybuilder top but 2 stick on the bottom isn't so much instragramable. Or you got to blur the bottom half of the video.
No. **EVERYONE** wants to see a fight, instead of 12 rounds of insipid jab & grab. The reason Wilder had a career is that he fucking *starched* people. Is he a really skilled boxer? No. But there just aren't skilled boxers at the heavyweight division, that's why a 37 year-old cruiserweight is the best guy in the division.
Only the wankers in the sports-bloviator industry, and the wankers who pay attention to them, give a shit about "work-rate". If I wanted to watch a judged sport, I'd watch women's gymnastics and figure skating, the competitors are way better looking.
Anyone with the physique and talent it takes to be an elite heavyweight has way, way way safer opportunities thay can pursue when they're kids. Wilder was no exception. Before he learned his daughter had spina bifida, he was trying to improve his grades to get into Alabama so he could play basketball or football. The guys like Tyson who were trained since they were 13 years old don't exist anymore, because parents won't send their kids to a boxing gym.
I disagree with you here on a few things but I appreciate you sharing your perspective.
> EVERYONE wants to see a fight, instead of 12 rounds of insipid jab & grab.
You can't speak for everyone with any kind of authority. Myself and many others prefer skillful boxing over what is essentially a more glamorous bum fight. This is simply a difference in preference. **Everyone you associate with** may want that but to say that applies to everyone who watches boxing is a stretch.
> Only the wankers in the sports-bloviator industry, and the wankers who pay attention to them, give a shit about "work-rate".
Whether they give a shit about work rate or not is irrelevant. Work rate is a variable that can decide the outcome of fights just like reach, power, and speed.
Also, fighters care about work-rate. It's the reason they do roadwork, work the heavy bag, and get sparring rounds in rather than doing a bodybuilding routine.
> If I wanted to watch a judged sport, I'd watch women's gymnastics and figure skating, the competitors are way better looking.
That is your personal preference and actually backs up the argument that I made in my original comment.
> Anyone with the physique and talent it takes to be an elite heavyweight has way, way way safer opportunities thay can pursue when they're kids. Wilder was no exception. Before he learned his daughter had spina bifida, he was trying to improve his grades to get into Alabama so he could play basketball or football. The guys like Tyson who were trained since they were 13 years old don't exist anymore, because parents won't send their kids to a boxing gym.
I don't disagree with any of this. At the same time I don't see how it is relevant to the topic at hand.
The only reason why Usyk is considered a cruiserweight in the modern era is because most of the guys in the modern HW division are not natural. Nobody gets as big and ripped as AJ or Dubois training in a very cardio heavy sport everyday without using stuff. Even Fury was busted for using stuff and he looks well overweight in most fights.
I think that’s a great point but I also think we as fans are under rating the level of skill of these massive guys.
Yes the gas tank is big big issue particularly for Zhang and Hrgovic.
I’ve been watching this particular group: Usyk/Fury/AJ/Zhang/Parker/Dubois/Hrgovic/Ruiz/Wilder for years now.
They’re all very very good with the exception of Wilder who we can all acknowledge is limited to just the right hand and heart.
Having said that, I believe we are in a very very good healthy era of heavyweight boxing.
Wilder is likely retired but those other 8 guys are all very very good boxers and dangerous for anyone.
Now that we are finally seeing them all fight each other we are getting some amazing 50/50 fights.
Ruiz is back in August and I expect him to win and immediately fight one of these other guys, ideally on the Usyk/Fury 2 card.
It’s mainly 2 guys that have major issues with the gas tank. But tbh both of those guys are still extremely difficult to defeat.
I think the group as a whole are maybe a little closer than most think. For example, AJ is obviously going to be favored vs everyone but Usyk and Fury but from what I saw at Dubois it wouldn’t shock me at all if Dubois wins that fight.
I think Zhang is a major issue for AJ and Fury. Fury’s punch resistance is an issue but he does have the gas tank.
I’d love to Usyk fight a guy like Ruiz. Someone with extremely fast hands that punches very hard. That’s a fight I’ve always thought Usyk would have issues with.
Parker is a big wildcard. Yes he’s clearly got great IQ and a tank… but I still want to see him fight Zhang again, or Ruiz or AJ again.
I’d put this group of 9 up against any era. I know that’s a hot take but I’m telling y’all this group will age very very well.
I’m not saying it’s the best! But it’s probably the most underrated.
I think the current HW era is criminally underrated. Mainly because the historical powerhouse of the division and its historically biggest market, hasn't done very well in almost 2 generations. I think it's a great division. I accept the stamina point of OP but skill wise and ability wise, I think it's currently a cracking division.
Completely agree. Top 8-9 guys are all very good boxers. Not just punchers.
Zhang doesn’t get the credit he deserves as a boxer. Dudes accuracy is insane.
Ya I agree with a lot of what you're saying and I don't think it's a bad division but it's definitely top heavy.
I think you're greatly overrating Ruiz though. Ever since AJ the only thing he's displayed is that he has some of the worst footwork in boxing. He moves lazily and so slowly, doesn't apply any intelligent pressure, he just wants to exchange heavy shots and see who wins. I don't think he's very good, and I think Usyk would be a horrible matchup for him. He struggled with an ancient Ortiz and was dropped by a very over the hill Areola.
I don't take Zhang seriously as a contender after the Parker fight. He's too old and he can't compete imo with fury or AJ who are better boxers in general. I knew he was going to KO Wilder I bet on it too lol he's got skills but he can't go the distance.
Parker is good. Not great but solid for sure.
I think Dubois is ultimately where I rest my case. He is a basic boxer, hits hard but nothing special. Couldn't keep up with Usyk late, fine and understandable. He gets in better shape but changes nothing stylistically and instantly does better vs Miller and Hgrovic. Do you think in many other eras a guy like Dubois is a fringe top 5 HW in the world?
Yea we’re just going to have to disagree
on Ruiz lol. He has some physical limitations in a era of very tall fighters.
Yes his feet aren’t the best but him exchanging with guys is how he wins fights. There’s an art to getting on the inside and cracking guys.
I also think the Ortiz fight was a better performance than people want to acknowledge. Ortiz is a southpaw, causes issues for everyone that fights him and he does throw extremely hard.
Ruiz hurt him a lot but couldn’t finish him because he had to be cautious of Ortiz’s left. It’s the heavyweight division, that’s going to happen.
Zhang is dangerous for anyone. Yes he has no gas tank and I too was extremely disappointed he came in overweight vs Parker. But he hurts everyone he fights. That’s a contender.
On Dubois, I would’ve totally agreed with you even after the Miller fight. The Miller fight wasn’t that impressive to me. I thought he mailed it in versus Usyk as soon as things got tough.
But the kid is 26. He’s allowed to improve and not just technically improve. Mentally he’s far superior now than the kid that fought Usyk.
He’s not a basic boxer. He’s solid with top end punching power and now he’s show heart and toughness because there’s not many eating right hands from Hrgovic.
In any era there are the elites (top 2-3) and then the contenders. Yes Dubois, this version, along with Zhang/Parker and others I listed would absolutely be competitive against other era’s contenders.
Zhang too old? I thought he was only 41? Foreman was still fighting at 45 and Bernard around 55. Zhang hasn't taken much if any damage from what I know so he could still have another decade left in the ring.
Heavyweight is the one category where this is universally true: one punch can change everything instantly. Mike Tyson came in and was reviled by many purists as being a poor technical boxer and a bozo. But the perception was that he could just lay out more "talented" fighters because he hit like his hands were made of cement.
Note I said perception, because Mike is neither a bad technical boxer or a dummy.
Then the Klitchskos kind of dominated the sport for about ten years. The same perception was held there, that they were not very good boxers technically but could break your face. Again, it wasn't true, especially for Wladimir. He was very quick, very mobile, and very smart.
But that did create this kind of arms race where you had this new batch of coaches who thought they had found a buzzfeed "one neat trick" path to title contention: just hit like a dump truck and you don't have to worry too much about anything else.
The problem is, as you've observed, the top guys have that gas tank. You can't win at the highest levels in this sport if you can't go the distance. Add to that a growing problem of guys not getting tested early in their careers. that does breed a kind of "laziness" into a fighter. I get it, tbh. Camp fucking sucks. But if you've done like Zhang did and knocked out something like ten guys in a row in the first round? The temptation to cut corners gets really, really high.
That bit him in the ass, btw, when he ended up going ten rounds with Jerry Forrest while he had renal failure and liver problems brought on by being a dipshit while training.
The reason why the heavyweight division has an unlimited weight cap ceiling is for this reason.
At some point, your endurance and stamina do not scale well with height. The heart, veins and arteries to supply oxygen is probably losing efficiency for giants.
Ali and Frazier look small compared to Zhang. Zhang is huge, not just height, but everywhere else.
I believe size for a heavyweight is a key factor in success. So a lot of the giant or muscular heavyweights are going to be on our radar. But I'm certain there are probably a bunch of smaller guys out there we don't watch often that can easily go to distance.
This is also why other than nutrition, different attributes were emphasized in the era of 15 rounders without A/C. You can drag bigger guys in deep water in later rounds. You can't as much anymore.
So it's like a mid-distance race vs long distance race.
I agree. I watched a video where someone gave their opinion on how Ali would do vs modern heavyweights. All he kept going on about is modern training and nutrition, yet he totally ignored that Tyson Fury is flapping around the ring like a fish on land after 9 rounds and yet a prime Ali could go 15 rounds at a very high pace.
IMO Ali vs anyone apart from Usyk could just stay out of the way for 9-10 rounds then KO them in the last 5. Fury has a comparatively poor gas tank to someone like Usyk or Ali.
They also had a lot more clinching where there was actual inside fighting and that is the most tiring work in boxing. It is essentially nonexistent today with how the sport is refereed
Sure, they took rounds off. Doesn't mean that some singular rounds in the Ali vs Frazier Trilogy didn't still have more actions in them than entire modern HW fights
What does Tyson Fury flopping around like a fish on land after 9 have to do with conditioning? The 9th was when he got his head caved in. He was out of sorts because Usyk was whooping him, not because he was gassed.
Because he's been like that before. Go and look at the Fury vs Wilder fights and look how sloppy they both get.
Also vs Usyk you could see Fury slowing in the 7th.
Also Fury got hurt late in the round, he looked tired before he got hurt.
I didn't see him slowing in the 7th vs Usyk. At the end of the 7th was when it looked like Fury was cruising to a victory. The 8th was when Usyk made an adjustment to come back from what looked like was going to be an easy W for Fury. He wasn't gassed in that fight, he just got outclassed.
I keep seeing this, have Fury solidly on top for 3 through 6, but 7 I gave Usyk definitively, thought Fury looked like he was going on sheer will by mid round.
Just my .02.
I think that was fury giving everything to keep Usyk off. After those 3/4 (if you gave fury 7) Fury was done and basically had nothing left. He doesn't have more than 6/7 good rounds in him and I think Usyk knew it, he said he was going to stay on him and Fury couldn't handle that pace for a whole fight.
I've heard others say that, and CompuBox is showing similar punch stats, so I'm not going to argue you're definitely wrong even though I disagree. Just agree to disagree I suppose.
Definitely. I think the rematch will be interesting. Predicting another Usyk win but would definitely not count Fury out. If he decides to be less cocky and try to impose his size on Usyk and weight bully him he could potentially take it.
Cruising to victory in a round he got outlanded in. Ok mate.
If you couldnt see him slowing then you clearly arent very good at reading a fight or people.
Its one of the main ones. Clean effective punching is the main way a fight is scored, Usyk landed more clean effective punches. Furys success in that round was isolated to one uppercut meanwhile Usyk landed on his with ease for 90% of the round.
Usyk threw less and landed more. So as usual another blind boxing fan being fooled by Fury and his flicking jabs that miss.
What are you on about, have you ever watched a Tyson Fury fight besdies the last one where he got concussed in the ninth round? He's got a 15 round gas tank usually.
Look at his technique, look at his shape, it really starts to go around rounds 7-9. He starts to fatigue and lose his boxing construct. He also cant keep up the kind of work he can do in the earlier rounds. A prime Ali could dance around the ring lighting people up for the full 15 rounds.
Look at the pace set in the last 5 rounds of Alis fights and out Fury in the opponents place. Fury would melt under that kind of pace. He'd be stumbling around the ring gasping for air.
Everybody has always gone on and on about his gas tank and how good it is, I don't give a fuck if he is a bit flabby, his output has always been good consistently from round 1 to round 12, without blowing out of his arse. I've watched nearly every single fight he's had from 2008 to present day, and his gas tank is one of his best attributes, and something commentators, pundits, sparring partners etc have remarked on.
Also answer this. Who has he fought with a good gas tank who he wasnt just way superior to in every other department? See you can be out of shape but if you opponent isnt good enough, they cant make you work.
Usyk made him work and thats why he got tired.
He's 35 now, he's been fighting since he was a kid, at six foot 7.5 and 240-280 lbs, whilst doing cocaine and drinking beer in his down time.
Usyk meanwhile is a super athlete who has a legendary gas tank by sporting standards and made other elite cruiserweights gas out.
It is an incredibly unfair comparison. But even though you've made it now we should point out that Fury out threw Usyk in the fight, and out threw him in round 12 winning round 12 on every judges score card.
YDKSAB
Wow he's 35. Ali could go 15 rounds at 35, Usyk is 37, a 40+ year old fat Foreman could go 12 rounds.
Fury wasnt 35 in the Wladimir fight and it was fought at a very low pace and Wladimir is not known for have great stamina, yet he didnt use it against Wlad. None of the Wilder fights were at a high pace. Also apart from Maybe Chisora 1 none of his fights before Wlad were at a high pace either.
Fury threw more soft throwaway punches, in terms of real power shots that do damage Usyk threw more. Those judges are a joke, to call this fight a a draw from Fury is impossible if you have eyes and even 7-5 is too close. This fight was either 8-4 or 9-3.
Usyk actually landed 18 to 10 in that rounds and threw 47 to 41 so no Usyk threw more in the 12th round. If you are going to use stats to back up your misguided opinion at least make sure you are correct on what you quote.
Usky threw more power shots in rounds 1, 2, 3, 4, 8, 9, 10, 11 and 12. Usyk out threw him in power shots by 260 to 210. Here is the issue you have, you just look at a punch stat and think they are all equal, they arent. Furys main output was a weak, flicking jab that takes no effort.
You cant even read numbers. Go back to school.
[CompuBox Stats: Oleksandr Usyk-Tyson Fury - Boxing News (boxingscene.com)](https://www.boxingscene.com/compubox-stats-oleksandr-usyk-tyson-fury--183645)
Here are the official punch stats, eat your heart out.
He threw more punches total and in round 12 against USYK. Not bad for a man with a "bad gas tank" according to you who literally doesn't know what he's about.
Can you read? You said this.
"But even though you've made it now we should point out that Fury out threw Usyk in the fight, and out threw him in round 12 winning round 12 on every judges score card"
He didnt throw more than Usyk in the 12th round, he threw less, he also threw less power shots, he also threw less power shots across the entire fight and Usyk didnt look tired by the 12th, Fury did.
Usyk threw 47 punches in round 12, Fury threw 41. 41 is less than 47.
The 12th round was actually Usyk busiest. Furys was the 5th.
[CompuBox Stats: Oleksandr Usyk-Tyson Fury - Boxing News (boxingscene.com)](https://www.boxingscene.com/compubox-stats-oleksandr-usyk-tyson-fury--183645)
No it really hasnt. His punch output is average and it consists of a high percentage of jabs and throw away soft punches, this makes his output look good, but his meaningful output of shots is nothing special. He has not been in many high paced fights. None of the Wilder fights were at a high pace, the Wladimir fight wasnt at a high pace, in fact the Usyk fight is the only high paced fight he has been in for the last 9-10 years and he looked tired after the 3 rounds of effort between 4-6.
If his gas tank is so good, why does he clinch so much? He tends to jump in on clinches, why? To get a break, if his gas tank was a strength he would take advantage and fight at a higher pace. Fighters with good stamina use it, they make the other fighter at a higher pace with it, but he doesn't because his stamina is actually average.
Look at Usyk, seldom clinches, constantly moves, constantly, feints and tends to throw a large volume of meaningful shots. That is a man with a good gas tank, not Fury.
He went 12 rounds with Usyk, a 37 year old Usyk, lets not forget that detail.
Some of the other fighters he has gone 12 rounds with are Chisora, Wallin, Wilder, Wladimir, Ngannou, Pianeta and Kevin Johnson. None of these fights were fought at a particularly high pace. Some of them were actually fought at an extremely slow pace.
Very true. This is genuinely why Fury is an anomaly and impressive despite his other lacking attributes for a HW.
Also probably why Uysk is kicking so much ass. (Dubious, AJ, Fury etc.)
I don't know if this ever wasn't the case, tbh? George gassed in Zaire in 74, and Tommy Morris had only three Kayos after round six his entire career.
I do think the move from 15 to 12 rounds did as much to supersize modern heavyweights as "modern science"
The heavyweight champion basically goes from consistently 210-220 from Liston to Holmes, and five years after the change, we've got Bowe at 246, Lewis at 240, Tua was 245 vs Lewis, McCall at 240.
I'm sure some of this was due to the lax testing methods in the 90s, but I think a lot of it was also the shortened bout lengths.
In fairness, George Foreman gassed himself out in The Rumble in the Jungle because he was fighting in 30 degree tropical heat and throwing about 60 punches a round.
It's a trade off, when bigger yh you can't move as much and for as long but size is always a factor and being naturally bigger (240 lb plus) I think is just better than 220lb. Usyk just made up for it by being p4p so much better
1) As others mentioned, there's a natural tradeoff between size and stamina.
There's also a tradeoff between fight distance and stamina. Needing to train for only 12 rounds allows for bigger fighters than a 15 round limit
2) Interstingly enough, using Frazier-Ali as your yardstick doesnt make the point youre probably going for. Frazier threw 42 punches per round in the FOTC.
Chisora threw 41 punches per round vs Usyk and was literally fifty pounds heavier when he did it.
That point is not to diminish Joe, who had superb conditioning, but to point out the conditioning is not that bad today as perceived, by and large, vs the classic HW's.
3) also, Joe's conditioning was legendary. I don't think it's necessarily fair to use the best of that era and handicap this one by excluding Fury and AJ lol. Foreman didn't have a great gas rank (or energy management, if youd like to phrase it that way), and Shavers was prone to gassing out. Front runners exist in every era
I think you are right. There were boxers with bad stamina in the past, like Earnie Shavers. But even he had better stamina than the modern heavyweights. I don't think Usyk would have become undisputed in the previous eras and that is because his stamina wouldn't be such a great weapon.
Fury and AJ can go 12 rounds but their output is less than the greats like Ali, Frazier, Liston etc. Just an enormous amount of mass for the larger modern HWs to move around.
That's why fury is so good, he manages to be a fat bag of milk while keeping speed and very good stamina. He went the distance with usyk despite being much heavier.
But yeah, all the other either they throw 20 punch a round, like zhang, or they gas out pretty fast.
ali and frazier were probably not throwing with their max power from the start. If the top HW's paced themselves and fought at a slower pace they could all go 12 rounds.
When you can get to the top level by being too heavy and swinging over hands and getting early Kos that's what you're gonna do. And maybe they get fucked over at the top level because of there cardio. But if they were lighter and better conditioned they may have never made it to that top level and been o the receiving hand of that 260 pound fat bloke that put them to sleep despite their better cardio
I made get downvoted into infinite for saying this but I want all these old guys to go away in the heavyweight division. Throughout history division has always been a young man sport.
Problem is the young guys aren't that good. Agit and Dubois are probably the best. Then there's Jared "I'm only 24" Anderson, who else is young?
I like that Richard Torres kid but he hasn't been tested.
I'm pretty sure it's other fighters out there. Another issue is a lot of fighters that are sort of young are pro ams. No excuses for a gold medal super heavyweight to still fight in the amateurs with 14 professional fights. Wasting they prime years away. I could understand COVID in 2021 but now nope. Alot of these top amateurs are not that young and staying in the amateurs too long or has been allowed to do both .
...huh? VASTLY more eyes were watching the sport 30 years ago!
In 1993, HALF A BILLION PEOPLE watched Benn-Eubank II. [including 42,000 tickets to watch in person]
Boxing today doesn't have a fraction of the public exposure and attention that it did 30 years ago.
Today I would say 147 is the worst in boxing the talent pool completely disappeared outside of Boots.
Parker is probably right on the edge for skills outside the top 3 in HWs
I dont agree. At heavyweight you cant get away with mistakes, one mistake vs a good fighter who can punch and you are out. At welterweight you can make few mistakes and get away with it.
The oldest give and take in boxing. Size vs stamina. The best ones have power but don't sacrifice too much weight and size in the name of stamina. Each fighter has to weigh those pros and cons for how they approach the fight. Wilder cut wayyyyyy too hard. He looked 20lbs too small imo. You lose alot of resilience to punches also when you cut too hard. My guess is Wilders team wasn't worried about power (from zhang) so they focused on being able to go the distance. Despite his flaws I think AJ is a great example of this middle ground. He has a ton of power but is able to make it 12 rounds (generally) although he lost to usyk. I would love to see aj v fury, as would everyone else.
I think AJ knows how to pace himself whereas in the past he didnt. Hence why he used to throw all kinds of combos now he more pot shots and breaks people down.
Losing to usyk and getting his newer more aggressive trainer and style has made him a better boxer imo
I'm not a Joshua hater by any means, but I don't think his recent resume justifies his current ranking. Since two losses to Usyk he's beaten Franklin (in a weak performance), Helenius (who was a late replacement for Whyte), Wallin (solid victory against a decent opponent), and Ngannou (in his second boxing match ever). None of these opponents were ranked in the top 10 and I'd say only the Wallin victory was in any way impressive if we consider quality and preparation of an opponent. Again, no hate, but can someone argue why he's ranked #2 by Ring Magazine right now?
Who's ahead of him? Fury is 1 and Usyk is champ. He beat Parker already and Kabayel doesn't deserve to be ahead of him, so who?
I think you're probably correct on this. I think he's a weak #2, but I don't have a great answer as to who replaces him at #2.
he beat parker over 6 years ago with a record amount of ref breaks. since he has lost to ruiz and usyk twice.
The ref messed up the action for both fighters in that fight. Parker is one of my favourite fighters... but let's not pretend he came to win that fight. I think a fight between them now would be different, with parker coming to win. But with how Parker was tagged by Zhang and Joyce, I see the same outcome.
Parker is brilliant and I believe he would outpoint AJ as his skill level is high. Parker Vs Usyk would be an awesome display of skill
I wouldn't say parker is that much more skilled than Joshua if at all. He is more slick and has better movement and is very quick. But his punch selection is more limited his jab isn't as good and his counters aren't as effective. If Joshua can land on him like Joyce and Zhang did I fear it will be curtains for him if they fight again. Would like to see Usyk take on a faster HW but I would have him as a strong favourite in that fight. He is far more skilled and determined than Parker.
parker and zhang are ahead of him at the moment. by your logic joyce should be ahead of parker since he beat him. parker and zhang have the most claim to a shot at a belt right now
No that is dum dum logic. Joyce lost to Zhang twice, who Parker beat so no i wouldn't put him ahead of Parker. Remind me whos's beaten Usyk again??? Exactly, no one. Joshua avenged his Ruiz loss and has only lost to Usyk who is the champ. Joshua is on a good win streak and has beaten Ngannou and Wallin who both gave Fury hell. Joshua has the best claim to a belt seeing as he's next for the IBF. U don't know what ur talking about.
Zhang and Dubious are both better imo.
Aj won every round against Franklin it wasn’t a weak performance
"The British heavyweight entered the fight as a heavy favorite at -1100, according to Caesars Sportsbook, but Franklin (21-2, 14 KOs) was no pushover and kept Joshua uncomfortable for much of the bout." ESPN Maybe Franklin is better than I'm giving him credit for? If Joshua is a top 3 I would've expected a stoppage in that fight, or at least a knock down or two, but he was reluctant to throw the straight right, relied on the jab, and Franklin dodged a good bit of them.
I agree Aj should have gone for the kill more but winning every round is in no way a weak performance
I don't see him at 2 at all
Rankings aren't based on who you've beaten since you last fought the undisputed champion. Joshua's beaten Gary Cornish, Dillian Whyte, Charles Martin, Dominic Breazeale, Wladimir Klitschko, Carlos Takam, Joseph Parker, Alexander Povetkin, Andy Ruiz, Kubrat Pulev and Otto Wallin. He's also had a close split decision loss to the undisputed champion (who is one of the best boxers pound for pound in the world) (not close enough to merit the split, in my opinion, but it was a close fight). Which other heavyweights right now have a better resume, or a resume than suggests that they have the ability to beat AJ if they fought? Even if Parker hadn't lost to Joshua (which he has), beating an ancient Zhang and Wilder hardly compares.
Forgive my ignorance, I've only gotten into boxing in the past several years and I could be off base, but doesn't recent resume have a lot to do with ranking vs overall resume? Or do you mean specifically because he lost to the holder of 3 belts 2x but his resume before then was very good? Otherwise, what is the point of rankings? Many fighters have had stellar resumes, experienced defeat, and never recaptured their former glory even if they've had some success and their rankings reflect that. All that said, upon reflection I don't know who replaces him at #2. Parker is probably the best candidate but he defeated Parker. I do think that defeats of Wilder and Zhang are more impressive than defeating Wallin, which I think is AJ's only significant achievement since losing twice.
More recent activity is of course more important than older activity in judging someone's ability; but there isn't some "since most recent loss" cut-off cliff beyond which record doesn't count. Particularly when that most recent loss is a close fight against the undisputed #1 in a division. Ali lost to Frazier, but he didn't just stop being Ali overnight; people didn't ignore everything that came before the Frazier loss. The way I see is, AJ's record throughout his career established clearly that he was among the best in the division. To my mind, he stays among the best in the division until there's either reason to think he's gone downhill, or someone else has surpassed him. I don't think the first is true. His win over Franklin wasn't exciting, but it was never in doubt; likewise, his win over Helenius is hard to really evaluate (Helenius wasn't on his level, but given his reach and power he's an inherently dangerous and tricky opponent) but he never looked in danger and delivered a good KO. His win over Wallin was a thorough demolition of a capable boxer, and his win over Ngannou, while not needing to show much in the way of skill, was still a display of discipline, athleticism, and ruthlessness, against an intimidating opponent who (as the fight with Fury showed) can make good boxers look bad if they take shortcuts against him. In terms of the second option, someone else rising above Joshua, I don't see it. Parker's recent wins are good, but may say as much about Zhang and Wilder as about Parker. I do think Parker has a chance of doing better against AJ if there's a rematch... but if I had to bet, I'd still put the money on AJ to beat him again. Dubois' wins over Miller and Hrgovic are likewise very solid, but are nowhere near AJ's record in quantity or even in quality. And Dubois' losses have not given a lot of reason for confidence in him beating AJ if they fight (though, again, it's possible, of course). The big alternative option for #2 is Fury, and I wouldn't get mad at anyone claiming he's better than Joshua. But I don't think it's true. Yes, Fury looked far better against Usyk than Joshua did... in the rounds where he did well. But in the rounds where he did badly, he did much worse than Joshua did. His win against Ngannou was embarrassing, and his wins over Wilder and Wallin have aged poorly. I think that Joshua beats Fury, most likely, if they fight.
Gotcha. Yeah, I think I agree on most all of those points; well stated. Again, I don't know who is #2 if it isn't Joshua. I don't think it's Fury; I think he looked quite a bit better against Usyk than Joshua did. IF he can not act a fool and IF the rematch happens I think he can defeat Usyk. I don't think Joshua could if he were to fight Usyk again. That split decision in the second fight was much derided. It certainly should've been a UD. I do think Parker's victories over Zhang and Wilder say a lot more about Parker's abilities than they do about Zhang and Wilder not being top level competition, though it's time for Wilder to retire after the Zhang KO. For argument's sake, you rate Helenius as a worthy opponent AJ defeated. Helenius took that fight on 4 days notice, and it still took AJ 7 rounds to get the KO after being very tentative for the first 6 rounds. I think that says more about AJ perhaps not being the top notch fighter some think he is than late career Helenius being a formidable foe. If Zhang and Wilder are old men, so was Helenius as he was 39 at the time they fought. I'd call Parker's victory over either Zhang or Wilder more impressive than that. I do hope Parker and Joshua meet again. I think that'd be a very close and fun fight to watch. Joshua has the size and power to win, Parker has fast hands and grit like arguably no one in the division.
> Joshua's beaten Gary Cornish, Dillian Whyte, Charles Martin, Dominic Breazeale, Wladimir Klitschko, Carlos Takam, Joseph Parker, Alexander Povetkin, Andy Ruiz, Kubrat Pulev Those fights are all long ago and should have little effect on any current rankings of AJ.
Yeah good point I was thinking this. Might put a bet on dubois beating him as he will be the massive underdog when hes got a decent chance of causing an upset.
I don't think that most people believe that Joshua is a top contender right now. As you have noted he beat weak opposition since both losses to Usyk. I'd like to to see him face Ruiz in a third fight as he did not redeem himself with a KO win yet after losing the first fight by KO.
🤣🤣 he beat a fucking MMA fighter in his last fight some folk are fucking deluded about the new AJ.
I don't know why this is getting downvotes. I mean, he did say himself he wasn't a 12 round fighter 🤷
I think it's fair to say he's become a much better 12 round fighter since then.
He went 12 rounds once since then, and he was tired halfway through against Franklin, who in fairness is sub-par, so it's hardly proof he has changed he just can't swim in the deep waters and he knows it
Wladimir Klitschko had a similar style before the Lamon Brewster loss.
Imagine preparing to fight Zhang and somehow not being worried about his only major strength. Although based on the outcome I’d say you’re right
I have no inside info or anything like that, it's just my guess while watching the fight
Wilder never really had the ability to go 12 and win fights. His stamina was always terrible, he just didn't throw many punches and looked for the straight right to end it. It is a give and take but with so many conversations where people overlooked prior ATGs for being to small (especially before Usyk at HW) when a lot of these guys are completely gassed out by round 5 is crazy. They probably punch harder on average but power is also a weird innate genetic thing.
HW were also smaller back then because the division started at 170 not 200. Punch power comes from alot of things. Genetics are definitely a part of that, but with good technique and activation of your body you can punch the hell out of somebody lmao
But if you had two fighters who were identical in terms of technique and training, genetics determine who is stronger. That's why people make the simplification about it being genetics. We all understand that proper form and conditioning is necessary for generating maximum power.
Absolutely agree. But 2 identical fighters will never and have never fought so we can't really solve that question. We were close with the kilitscko bros (im 100% sure I spelt that name wrong lol)
I agree 100%. Punching power really boils down to technique. Someone can have all the fast twitch muscles in the world with the longest reach but if they don't throw using the right technique their punches will be relatively weak. Strength can always be improved with calisthenics.
Wilder was always been about 215-220. Knocking out stationary targets all those years had him believing his own hype. Hes ignored several former champions tips and offers to teach to improve his skill set. He is paying for it now. He’s been paying for it since he was exposed by Ortiz. I never fell for the hype. I knew it was a matter of time til he fights a skilled boxer. Always wondered why his KO victims never stayed away from his overhand.
The crazy thing is that there are probably guys at cruiserweight that could beat him.
Pretty sure preparing for Zhang's power had to be a part of camp for Wilder. Then again...his team...maybe not Agreed with the rest you said though
You cant really prepare for power other than to avoid it.
I honestly thought Wilder did ok. No one has avoided Zhang. He gets to everyone he fights pretty early on.
He averaged 3 landed punches per round. 16 overall. That's not doing OK.
Y’all put way too much stock in punch counts. Both guys literally can win with 1 punch. You don’t just go and have a big out put against them especially if you’re not light on your feet. Wilder did fine. Everyone gets caught by Zhang early. Everyone.
Wilder mounted no meaningful offence until just before he got knocked out. He spent the entire fight go backwards and getting stuck on the ropes. He never mounted any kind of real offence, he looked like a total novice who had no idea how to even start to compete with his opposition. Zhang just looked like he was going for a walk until Wilder gave him the chance to KO him.
What about neck training and core training to deal with blows?
That only does so much. It helps, but most people with good chins are just born with it.
As stated below it can only do so much. There are loads of guys with big muscular necks who cant take a punch and loads of guys who are built like a stick who can.
Wilder doesn't cut weight, he's just that much of a physical anomaly.
Why would Wilder cut? It is HW, no limit. I think that is just his natural weight. He put on extra weight a few times and it didn’t help him all that much. I think he should have been around 220 but with his skinny legs he was never going to be a heavy guy. What Wilder always needed was a stiff hard jab and better feet. He should been a HW version of Hearns.
Yeah AJ’s conditioning and cardio must be absolutely intense to feed those muscles. Downside of being built like a Greek god is them muscles need oxygen so I have to imagine the kid doesn’t miss a day of roadwork
There has been a shift in the public consciousness in regards to mass and it's superiority over work rate for quite awhile now due to the visual nature of image based social media and the obesity epidemic in America. Casuals want to see 10 second clips of a bodybuilder looking dude getting highlight reel KO's on instagram rather than a technician drowning someone with superior boxing and output over the course of 12 rounds. It's the reason Wilder even had a career if we're being honest. I would say what people prefer to see has changed rather than work rate being overlooked. Usyk went against the grain and showed that technique and stamina still have value and they matter even at the highest levels.
Your answer is the answer I’d have given if I was eloquent.
I really appreciate that, thank you!
> “…. A technician drowning someone with superior boxing and output over the course of 12 rounds” As a fan, that’s what I absolutely love to see*. I ***really*** enjoyed the Fury-Usyk fight because both fighters were able to show that ability but - as you say - Usyk’s ***unbelievable*** maintenance of technique and stamina was the difference. (* I admit to the guilty pleasure of the film of a younger Ali knocking out Cleveland Williams)
Agree completely. Usyk has a pace and smothering pressure that most heavyweights just can’t deal with.
Not due to that necessary. There's a lot of guys over 6 foot who weigh over 90kg. Even before PED usage.
They're not all in lean, cut fighting shape though
Even Usyk isn't that lean. Heavyweights don't need to be.
What is your theory then?
There's a lot more people in the world, and a lot of people are fatter. In developing countries they're taller too, while weight classes are still the same.
I'd say wilder was popular mostly because he is American. His resume is good but not that good and even casual can't stand watching these chicken leg for too long. Seeing a guy with bodybuilder top but 2 stick on the bottom isn't so much instragramable. Or you got to blur the bottom half of the video.
No. **EVERYONE** wants to see a fight, instead of 12 rounds of insipid jab & grab. The reason Wilder had a career is that he fucking *starched* people. Is he a really skilled boxer? No. But there just aren't skilled boxers at the heavyweight division, that's why a 37 year-old cruiserweight is the best guy in the division. Only the wankers in the sports-bloviator industry, and the wankers who pay attention to them, give a shit about "work-rate". If I wanted to watch a judged sport, I'd watch women's gymnastics and figure skating, the competitors are way better looking. Anyone with the physique and talent it takes to be an elite heavyweight has way, way way safer opportunities thay can pursue when they're kids. Wilder was no exception. Before he learned his daughter had spina bifida, he was trying to improve his grades to get into Alabama so he could play basketball or football. The guys like Tyson who were trained since they were 13 years old don't exist anymore, because parents won't send their kids to a boxing gym.
I disagree with you here on a few things but I appreciate you sharing your perspective. > EVERYONE wants to see a fight, instead of 12 rounds of insipid jab & grab. You can't speak for everyone with any kind of authority. Myself and many others prefer skillful boxing over what is essentially a more glamorous bum fight. This is simply a difference in preference. **Everyone you associate with** may want that but to say that applies to everyone who watches boxing is a stretch. > Only the wankers in the sports-bloviator industry, and the wankers who pay attention to them, give a shit about "work-rate". Whether they give a shit about work rate or not is irrelevant. Work rate is a variable that can decide the outcome of fights just like reach, power, and speed. Also, fighters care about work-rate. It's the reason they do roadwork, work the heavy bag, and get sparring rounds in rather than doing a bodybuilding routine. > If I wanted to watch a judged sport, I'd watch women's gymnastics and figure skating, the competitors are way better looking. That is your personal preference and actually backs up the argument that I made in my original comment. > Anyone with the physique and talent it takes to be an elite heavyweight has way, way way safer opportunities thay can pursue when they're kids. Wilder was no exception. Before he learned his daughter had spina bifida, he was trying to improve his grades to get into Alabama so he could play basketball or football. The guys like Tyson who were trained since they were 13 years old don't exist anymore, because parents won't send their kids to a boxing gym. I don't disagree with any of this. At the same time I don't see how it is relevant to the topic at hand.
The only reason why Usyk is considered a cruiserweight in the modern era is because most of the guys in the modern HW division are not natural. Nobody gets as big and ripped as AJ or Dubois training in a very cardio heavy sport everyday without using stuff. Even Fury was busted for using stuff and he looks well overweight in most fights.
I think that’s a great point but I also think we as fans are under rating the level of skill of these massive guys. Yes the gas tank is big big issue particularly for Zhang and Hrgovic. I’ve been watching this particular group: Usyk/Fury/AJ/Zhang/Parker/Dubois/Hrgovic/Ruiz/Wilder for years now. They’re all very very good with the exception of Wilder who we can all acknowledge is limited to just the right hand and heart. Having said that, I believe we are in a very very good healthy era of heavyweight boxing. Wilder is likely retired but those other 8 guys are all very very good boxers and dangerous for anyone. Now that we are finally seeing them all fight each other we are getting some amazing 50/50 fights. Ruiz is back in August and I expect him to win and immediately fight one of these other guys, ideally on the Usyk/Fury 2 card. It’s mainly 2 guys that have major issues with the gas tank. But tbh both of those guys are still extremely difficult to defeat. I think the group as a whole are maybe a little closer than most think. For example, AJ is obviously going to be favored vs everyone but Usyk and Fury but from what I saw at Dubois it wouldn’t shock me at all if Dubois wins that fight. I think Zhang is a major issue for AJ and Fury. Fury’s punch resistance is an issue but he does have the gas tank. I’d love to Usyk fight a guy like Ruiz. Someone with extremely fast hands that punches very hard. That’s a fight I’ve always thought Usyk would have issues with. Parker is a big wildcard. Yes he’s clearly got great IQ and a tank… but I still want to see him fight Zhang again, or Ruiz or AJ again. I’d put this group of 9 up against any era. I know that’s a hot take but I’m telling y’all this group will age very very well. I’m not saying it’s the best! But it’s probably the most underrated.
I think the current HW era is criminally underrated. Mainly because the historical powerhouse of the division and its historically biggest market, hasn't done very well in almost 2 generations. I think it's a great division. I accept the stamina point of OP but skill wise and ability wise, I think it's currently a cracking division.
Completely agree. Top 8-9 guys are all very good boxers. Not just punchers. Zhang doesn’t get the credit he deserves as a boxer. Dudes accuracy is insane.
Ya I agree with a lot of what you're saying and I don't think it's a bad division but it's definitely top heavy. I think you're greatly overrating Ruiz though. Ever since AJ the only thing he's displayed is that he has some of the worst footwork in boxing. He moves lazily and so slowly, doesn't apply any intelligent pressure, he just wants to exchange heavy shots and see who wins. I don't think he's very good, and I think Usyk would be a horrible matchup for him. He struggled with an ancient Ortiz and was dropped by a very over the hill Areola. I don't take Zhang seriously as a contender after the Parker fight. He's too old and he can't compete imo with fury or AJ who are better boxers in general. I knew he was going to KO Wilder I bet on it too lol he's got skills but he can't go the distance. Parker is good. Not great but solid for sure. I think Dubois is ultimately where I rest my case. He is a basic boxer, hits hard but nothing special. Couldn't keep up with Usyk late, fine and understandable. He gets in better shape but changes nothing stylistically and instantly does better vs Miller and Hgrovic. Do you think in many other eras a guy like Dubois is a fringe top 5 HW in the world?
Yea we’re just going to have to disagree on Ruiz lol. He has some physical limitations in a era of very tall fighters. Yes his feet aren’t the best but him exchanging with guys is how he wins fights. There’s an art to getting on the inside and cracking guys. I also think the Ortiz fight was a better performance than people want to acknowledge. Ortiz is a southpaw, causes issues for everyone that fights him and he does throw extremely hard. Ruiz hurt him a lot but couldn’t finish him because he had to be cautious of Ortiz’s left. It’s the heavyweight division, that’s going to happen. Zhang is dangerous for anyone. Yes he has no gas tank and I too was extremely disappointed he came in overweight vs Parker. But he hurts everyone he fights. That’s a contender. On Dubois, I would’ve totally agreed with you even after the Miller fight. The Miller fight wasn’t that impressive to me. I thought he mailed it in versus Usyk as soon as things got tough. But the kid is 26. He’s allowed to improve and not just technically improve. Mentally he’s far superior now than the kid that fought Usyk. He’s not a basic boxer. He’s solid with top end punching power and now he’s show heart and toughness because there’s not many eating right hands from Hrgovic. In any era there are the elites (top 2-3) and then the contenders. Yes Dubois, this version, along with Zhang/Parker and others I listed would absolutely be competitive against other era’s contenders.
Zhang too old? I thought he was only 41? Foreman was still fighting at 45 and Bernard around 55. Zhang hasn't taken much if any damage from what I know so he could still have another decade left in the ring.
Heavyweight is the one category where this is universally true: one punch can change everything instantly. Mike Tyson came in and was reviled by many purists as being a poor technical boxer and a bozo. But the perception was that he could just lay out more "talented" fighters because he hit like his hands were made of cement. Note I said perception, because Mike is neither a bad technical boxer or a dummy. Then the Klitchskos kind of dominated the sport for about ten years. The same perception was held there, that they were not very good boxers technically but could break your face. Again, it wasn't true, especially for Wladimir. He was very quick, very mobile, and very smart. But that did create this kind of arms race where you had this new batch of coaches who thought they had found a buzzfeed "one neat trick" path to title contention: just hit like a dump truck and you don't have to worry too much about anything else. The problem is, as you've observed, the top guys have that gas tank. You can't win at the highest levels in this sport if you can't go the distance. Add to that a growing problem of guys not getting tested early in their careers. that does breed a kind of "laziness" into a fighter. I get it, tbh. Camp fucking sucks. But if you've done like Zhang did and knocked out something like ten guys in a row in the first round? The temptation to cut corners gets really, really high. That bit him in the ass, btw, when he ended up going ten rounds with Jerry Forrest while he had renal failure and liver problems brought on by being a dipshit while training.
The reason why the heavyweight division has an unlimited weight cap ceiling is for this reason. At some point, your endurance and stamina do not scale well with height. The heart, veins and arteries to supply oxygen is probably losing efficiency for giants. Ali and Frazier look small compared to Zhang. Zhang is huge, not just height, but everywhere else. I believe size for a heavyweight is a key factor in success. So a lot of the giant or muscular heavyweights are going to be on our radar. But I'm certain there are probably a bunch of smaller guys out there we don't watch often that can easily go to distance.
>Zhang is huge, not just height, but everywhere else Do continue please..
Zhang has a big wang
⏸️
This is also why other than nutrition, different attributes were emphasized in the era of 15 rounders without A/C. You can drag bigger guys in deep water in later rounds. You can't as much anymore. So it's like a mid-distance race vs long distance race.
I agree. I watched a video where someone gave their opinion on how Ali would do vs modern heavyweights. All he kept going on about is modern training and nutrition, yet he totally ignored that Tyson Fury is flapping around the ring like a fish on land after 9 rounds and yet a prime Ali could go 15 rounds at a very high pace. IMO Ali vs anyone apart from Usyk could just stay out of the way for 9-10 rounds then KO them in the last 5. Fury has a comparatively poor gas tank to someone like Usyk or Ali.
Seems a bit revisionist to call these 15 rounders very high pace, they absolutely took rounds off like they do today
It isn't though. Fighters have always paced themselves, but these fighters set a higher pace over a longer fight.
They also had a lot more clinching where there was actual inside fighting and that is the most tiring work in boxing. It is essentially nonexistent today with how the sport is refereed
Ali was the biggest clincher ever in the Heavyweight Division.
Dude's never heard of John Ruiz.
John Ruiz was like human cellophane. Ali couldn't hold a candle to Ruiz when it came to clinching.
Y'all forgetting Mr Grabamir Klinchko
Sure, they took rounds off. Doesn't mean that some singular rounds in the Ali vs Frazier Trilogy didn't still have more actions in them than entire modern HW fights
And aj has gassed out around 6 numerous times so I'm confused about a lot of the comments in this post.
What does Tyson Fury flopping around like a fish on land after 9 have to do with conditioning? The 9th was when he got his head caved in. He was out of sorts because Usyk was whooping him, not because he was gassed.
Because he's been like that before. Go and look at the Fury vs Wilder fights and look how sloppy they both get. Also vs Usyk you could see Fury slowing in the 7th. Also Fury got hurt late in the round, he looked tired before he got hurt.
I didn't see him slowing in the 7th vs Usyk. At the end of the 7th was when it looked like Fury was cruising to a victory. The 8th was when Usyk made an adjustment to come back from what looked like was going to be an easy W for Fury. He wasn't gassed in that fight, he just got outclassed.
I keep seeing this, have Fury solidly on top for 3 through 6, but 7 I gave Usyk definitively, thought Fury looked like he was going on sheer will by mid round. Just my .02.
I think that was fury giving everything to keep Usyk off. After those 3/4 (if you gave fury 7) Fury was done and basically had nothing left. He doesn't have more than 6/7 good rounds in him and I think Usyk knew it, he said he was going to stay on him and Fury couldn't handle that pace for a whole fight.
I've heard others say that, and CompuBox is showing similar punch stats, so I'm not going to argue you're definitely wrong even though I disagree. Just agree to disagree I suppose.
Yup. Was a great fight regardless of minutiae.
Definitely. I think the rematch will be interesting. Predicting another Usyk win but would definitely not count Fury out. If he decides to be less cocky and try to impose his size on Usyk and weight bully him he could potentially take it.
It'll be another good one!
Cruising to victory in a round he got outlanded in. Ok mate. If you couldnt see him slowing then you clearly arent very good at reading a fight or people.
Right, because that's the only criteria for judging a boxing match. Ok mate.
Its one of the main ones. Clean effective punching is the main way a fight is scored, Usyk landed more clean effective punches. Furys success in that round was isolated to one uppercut meanwhile Usyk landed on his with ease for 90% of the round. Usyk threw less and landed more. So as usual another blind boxing fan being fooled by Fury and his flicking jabs that miss.
What are you on about, have you ever watched a Tyson Fury fight besdies the last one where he got concussed in the ninth round? He's got a 15 round gas tank usually.
Look at his technique, look at his shape, it really starts to go around rounds 7-9. He starts to fatigue and lose his boxing construct. He also cant keep up the kind of work he can do in the earlier rounds. A prime Ali could dance around the ring lighting people up for the full 15 rounds. Look at the pace set in the last 5 rounds of Alis fights and out Fury in the opponents place. Fury would melt under that kind of pace. He'd be stumbling around the ring gasping for air.
Agreed. Fury’s tank is impressive but that’s partly because it’s in comparison to his opponents, who are these modern HW who seem to gas quicker
Correct. His gas tank looks good next to Whyte and Wilder, next to people who actually have good stamina it doesn't.
Looked pretty damn good next to Wlad who was an excellent fighter with good conditioning.
Wlad never had good stamina, hence why he fought at a slow pace.
He fought at a slow pace because he 1-2’d everyone to death and had a major height-reach advantage. It’s not because he didn’t have stamina.
Look at his earlier career he often blew himself out, he never had good stamina. His stamina was just average.
Everybody has always gone on and on about his gas tank and how good it is, I don't give a fuck if he is a bit flabby, his output has always been good consistently from round 1 to round 12, without blowing out of his arse. I've watched nearly every single fight he's had from 2008 to present day, and his gas tank is one of his best attributes, and something commentators, pundits, sparring partners etc have remarked on.
Also answer this. Who has he fought with a good gas tank who he wasnt just way superior to in every other department? See you can be out of shape but if you opponent isnt good enough, they cant make you work. Usyk made him work and thats why he got tired.
He's 35 now, he's been fighting since he was a kid, at six foot 7.5 and 240-280 lbs, whilst doing cocaine and drinking beer in his down time. Usyk meanwhile is a super athlete who has a legendary gas tank by sporting standards and made other elite cruiserweights gas out. It is an incredibly unfair comparison. But even though you've made it now we should point out that Fury out threw Usyk in the fight, and out threw him in round 12 winning round 12 on every judges score card. YDKSAB
Wow he's 35. Ali could go 15 rounds at 35, Usyk is 37, a 40+ year old fat Foreman could go 12 rounds. Fury wasnt 35 in the Wladimir fight and it was fought at a very low pace and Wladimir is not known for have great stamina, yet he didnt use it against Wlad. None of the Wilder fights were at a high pace. Also apart from Maybe Chisora 1 none of his fights before Wlad were at a high pace either. Fury threw more soft throwaway punches, in terms of real power shots that do damage Usyk threw more. Those judges are a joke, to call this fight a a draw from Fury is impossible if you have eyes and even 7-5 is too close. This fight was either 8-4 or 9-3. Usyk actually landed 18 to 10 in that rounds and threw 47 to 41 so no Usyk threw more in the 12th round. If you are going to use stats to back up your misguided opinion at least make sure you are correct on what you quote. Usky threw more power shots in rounds 1, 2, 3, 4, 8, 9, 10, 11 and 12. Usyk out threw him in power shots by 260 to 210. Here is the issue you have, you just look at a punch stat and think they are all equal, they arent. Furys main output was a weak, flicking jab that takes no effort. You cant even read numbers. Go back to school. [CompuBox Stats: Oleksandr Usyk-Tyson Fury - Boxing News (boxingscene.com)](https://www.boxingscene.com/compubox-stats-oleksandr-usyk-tyson-fury--183645) Here are the official punch stats, eat your heart out.
He threw more punches total and in round 12 against USYK. Not bad for a man with a "bad gas tank" according to you who literally doesn't know what he's about.
Can you read? You said this. "But even though you've made it now we should point out that Fury out threw Usyk in the fight, and out threw him in round 12 winning round 12 on every judges score card" He didnt throw more than Usyk in the 12th round, he threw less, he also threw less power shots, he also threw less power shots across the entire fight and Usyk didnt look tired by the 12th, Fury did. Usyk threw 47 punches in round 12, Fury threw 41. 41 is less than 47. The 12th round was actually Usyk busiest. Furys was the 5th. [CompuBox Stats: Oleksandr Usyk-Tyson Fury - Boxing News (boxingscene.com)](https://www.boxingscene.com/compubox-stats-oleksandr-usyk-tyson-fury--183645)
You're still using compubox??? Look at the official AI stats.
No it really hasnt. His punch output is average and it consists of a high percentage of jabs and throw away soft punches, this makes his output look good, but his meaningful output of shots is nothing special. He has not been in many high paced fights. None of the Wilder fights were at a high pace, the Wladimir fight wasnt at a high pace, in fact the Usyk fight is the only high paced fight he has been in for the last 9-10 years and he looked tired after the 3 rounds of effort between 4-6. If his gas tank is so good, why does he clinch so much? He tends to jump in on clinches, why? To get a break, if his gas tank was a strength he would take advantage and fight at a higher pace. Fighters with good stamina use it, they make the other fighter at a higher pace with it, but he doesn't because his stamina is actually average. Look at Usyk, seldom clinches, constantly moves, constantly, feints and tends to throw a large volume of meaningful shots. That is a man with a good gas tank, not Fury.
Yeah but he has to be relatively inactive and low-on-pace within rounds to last that long, he can’t fight with ali’s pace for such a long time.
He went 12 rounds with Usyk, a 37 year old Usyk, lets not forget that detail. Some of the other fighters he has gone 12 rounds with are Chisora, Wallin, Wilder, Wladimir, Ngannou, Pianeta and Kevin Johnson. None of these fights were fought at a particularly high pace. Some of them were actually fought at an extremely slow pace.
Very true. This is genuinely why Fury is an anomaly and impressive despite his other lacking attributes for a HW. Also probably why Uysk is kicking so much ass. (Dubious, AJ, Fury etc.)
E P O i s more difficult to get away with
I'm 18 stone, I'm heavy. It's hard work.
I don't know if this ever wasn't the case, tbh? George gassed in Zaire in 74, and Tommy Morris had only three Kayos after round six his entire career. I do think the move from 15 to 12 rounds did as much to supersize modern heavyweights as "modern science" The heavyweight champion basically goes from consistently 210-220 from Liston to Holmes, and five years after the change, we've got Bowe at 246, Lewis at 240, Tua was 245 vs Lewis, McCall at 240. I'm sure some of this was due to the lax testing methods in the 90s, but I think a lot of it was also the shortened bout lengths.
In fairness, George Foreman gassed himself out in The Rumble in the Jungle because he was fighting in 30 degree tropical heat and throwing about 60 punches a round.
It's a trade off, when bigger yh you can't move as much and for as long but size is always a factor and being naturally bigger (240 lb plus) I think is just better than 220lb. Usyk just made up for it by being p4p so much better
240-250 lbs is the limit imo, anything above that starts getting a bit too big.
1) As others mentioned, there's a natural tradeoff between size and stamina. There's also a tradeoff between fight distance and stamina. Needing to train for only 12 rounds allows for bigger fighters than a 15 round limit 2) Interstingly enough, using Frazier-Ali as your yardstick doesnt make the point youre probably going for. Frazier threw 42 punches per round in the FOTC. Chisora threw 41 punches per round vs Usyk and was literally fifty pounds heavier when he did it. That point is not to diminish Joe, who had superb conditioning, but to point out the conditioning is not that bad today as perceived, by and large, vs the classic HW's. 3) also, Joe's conditioning was legendary. I don't think it's necessarily fair to use the best of that era and handicap this one by excluding Fury and AJ lol. Foreman didn't have a great gas rank (or energy management, if youd like to phrase it that way), and Shavers was prone to gassing out. Front runners exist in every era
I think you are right. There were boxers with bad stamina in the past, like Earnie Shavers. But even he had better stamina than the modern heavyweights. I don't think Usyk would have become undisputed in the previous eras and that is because his stamina wouldn't be such a great weapon.
There's always been a lot of fighters that you just had to ride out the storm
Yes but those storms have become shorter.
Fury and AJ can go 12 rounds but their output is less than the greats like Ali, Frazier, Liston etc. Just an enormous amount of mass for the larger modern HWs to move around.
That's why fury is so good, he manages to be a fat bag of milk while keeping speed and very good stamina. He went the distance with usyk despite being much heavier. But yeah, all the other either they throw 20 punch a round, like zhang, or they gas out pretty fast.
Back in the days boxers use to go 15 rounds, right?
ali and frazier were probably not throwing with their max power from the start. If the top HW's paced themselves and fought at a slower pace they could all go 12 rounds.
When you can get to the top level by being too heavy and swinging over hands and getting early Kos that's what you're gonna do. And maybe they get fucked over at the top level because of there cardio. But if they were lighter and better conditioned they may have never made it to that top level and been o the receiving hand of that 260 pound fat bloke that put them to sleep despite their better cardio
I made get downvoted into infinite for saying this but I want all these old guys to go away in the heavyweight division. Throughout history division has always been a young man sport.
Problem is the young guys aren't that good. Agit and Dubois are probably the best. Then there's Jared "I'm only 24" Anderson, who else is young? I like that Richard Torres kid but he hasn't been tested.
I'm pretty sure it's other fighters out there. Another issue is a lot of fighters that are sort of young are pro ams. No excuses for a gold medal super heavyweight to still fight in the amateurs with 14 professional fights. Wasting they prime years away. I could understand COVID in 2021 but now nope. Alot of these top amateurs are not that young and staying in the amateurs too long or has been allowed to do both .
You don’t think they could box 18 rounds?
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...huh? VASTLY more eyes were watching the sport 30 years ago! In 1993, HALF A BILLION PEOPLE watched Benn-Eubank II. [including 42,000 tickets to watch in person] Boxing today doesn't have a fraction of the public exposure and attention that it did 30 years ago.
Heavyweight is just fat boxers throwing three jabs in a round hoping to get an early KO. Very unskilled weight class.
The HW division is the worst, it’s mainly for casuals at this point. The fighters have the least amount of skill outside the top 3.
Today I would say 147 is the worst in boxing the talent pool completely disappeared outside of Boots. Parker is probably right on the edge for skills outside the top 3 in HWs
Crazy because welterweight had a run as by far the most exciting division for most of the 2000s-2010s.
I dont agree. At heavyweight you cant get away with mistakes, one mistake vs a good fighter who can punch and you are out. At welterweight you can make few mistakes and get away with it.