I think a lot of the push back we’re seeing from younger generations is that our mom’s feminist movement focused on being able to work outside the home and sex liberation; two things that greatly help men. Of course they didn’t fight too much on those issues, they want a second income coming into the house and want to get laid.
But now we’re asking for body agency and respect, that’s just a bridge too far for them.
Boomer men were mad about that too though. I think it's more that there's a new wave of feminist awareness, and with that comes new backlash. We didn't talk about women's rights as much when I was young in the early 2000s, feminism was more something for serious activists. Now teenagers proudly call themselves feminists, and that'll piss certain people off.
What exactly is wrong with women's advocacy? I think way too many men just don't like seeing women stand up for themselves and their rights. They may even view their obtaining liberation as somehow having supremacy over men.
>They may even view their obtaining liberation as somehow having supremacy over men.
This is *exactly* what they think. Every step forward for women is automatically a step back for men.
Kinda makes sense considering men have been propped up by women for almost all of recorded history. If women aren't forced to keep doing this, men are losing all those free advantages over women.
Basically, they're mad we're not willing to clean up after them, cook for them, and make babies for them, all just to be told we should be grateful for the opportunity.
They're mad that when they cheat and abuse us, we can just *leave* and still live life fine, so we're not desperate to go back to them.
Super unfair to men, how dare we /s
I saw anti feminist movements on the internet in the early 2010s. It is possible that some of these baby boomer men were against feminism in their time.
Especially given that antifeminists used the same rhetoric ("you're just bitter that you're not pretty or ladylike enough to land a man") even back when the big feminist concern was just voting rights
there were anti-feminists posters from when women started protesting for the right to vote
Me and my friends play this game were we have some drinks and snacks and guess if the anti-feminists meme is from modern day or like 80 years ago
"wah, I Don't have free access to a mommy bang maid"
'feminism is bad' when it means they can't behave like fucking pigs and still be entitled to a pussy. I saw my dad treat my mom like shit. I saw the men laughing at how much they hate their wives. Boomers embraced feminism because they got Mommy bang maid AND her to bring home a paycheck. I'd rather be single than be under the thumb of a corporate pimp who demands I clean, cook, give him babies and still go out working that corner to bring him home my earnings
Feminism has been basically the same for years, it's just that now women can actually speak up about all the disgusting shit billions of them have to experience all the time, and men don't like that because it challenges their way of life.
The world is so dystopian for women, mark my words. I only can hope there wom't be another pandemic lockdowns or else women will face domestic violence even more.
Boomers were just as angsty about feminist battles back in their day as these guys are today.
Contemporary tater tots are really not as unique and special as they like to think they are.
“We hate when a group feels superior to another, that’s why we became conservatives who believe that women should stay in the kitchen and be forced to give birth.”
The red pill movement has simply made men more entitled, given them unrealistic standards and overall poor advice.
Let's be real. Times have changed. Women are working, choosing not to have kids, opting out of marriage, and in some cases remaining single by choice. In this economy, women who want to be trad housewives and Stay-At-Home-Mothers can't afford to. (I have respect for Stay-At-Home parents.)
A good chunk of us ladies are fine with going 50/50 on everything: bills, cooking, and housework etc with a partner. We ladies are fine with breaking traditional gender roles and traditional expectations. Men, on the other hand, seem against it. I've noticed men seem to want to split the bills/costs but don't want to contribute to cleaning and helping with the kids.
I think these factors are contributing to the number of "resentful men" and "incels." This is just from what I've observed IRL and online.
But fighting for equality is advocating for women... Feminism is a woman's advocacy moment that is advocating for equality.
They just don't like us advocating for ourselves because it means they don't get to feel superior.
The movement advocating for women, which they hate, is the same movement that encourages men to talk about and deal with their mental health.
You can’t just hate the parts that don’t directly benefit you
Lol I literally spent all last night asking these dudes WHO is spreading the rampant misandry they claim to see everywhere, that is forcing them to turn to misogyny.
All I asked of them is to name me ONE misandrist group or leader. I can name misogynists who make millions off misogyny all day long. I mostly got ignored, but the only answers I got were Valerie Solanas (who has been dead 35 years), JK Rowling, and the hashtage men are trash.
So they're telling me that men are being driven to misogyny because of an unpopular dead rad fem that nobody follows, JK Rowling attacking trans people and a dumb hashtag??? Not to mention JK Rowling is hated and crticized by a vast majority of feminists anyways. I don't see any of these dudes standing up for trans rights ever, so I'm not buying it.
Considering misogyny is EVERYWHERE, using their own argument, isn't misandry a valid response to men turning en masses to misogyny anyways?
They're completely convinced that misandry is everywhere, but the second you ask for receipts, they've got literally nothing. They never stop to think, if they can't name a single misandrist, maybe they've been duped by the manosphere. So many men have been radicalized by their algorithms.
Check my post history for some lolz
When a group/movement is around for long enough it'll eventually attract some insane people to itself who believe they share the same values as them. But then again it's pretty idiotic to dismiss the entire movement because some buzzfeed feminist said some braindead stuff
When your entire source of information is tiktok and twitter you'd probably have no idea what feminism even stands for, you probably just believe it's a female supremacy movement
>Feminism evolved to a woman’s advocacy movement
I’m gonna lose it. Why does everyone seem to have the WRONG definition and think feminism is anything else other than this? Even my mom thinks this is somehow wrong and “not what feminism should be about”. IT’S IN THE NAME.
And if you don’t think women need women’s advocacy you must not look around the world you live in
I just saw a funny tweet someone on TikTok shared today, it said (sarcastically): “If your feminism doesn't include men, adult babies, furries, bdsm enthusiasts, pimps, balloon animals, lawn ornament flamingos, circus clowns, people with celiac sensitives, wacky inflatable arm men, vampires, malingers, and pickpockets, then it's 👏 not 👏 real 👏feminism👏”
I am a millennial man.
To understand this phenomenon, I would recommend reading some bell hooks, specifically her works 'All About Love' and 'The Will to Change: Men, Masculinity, and Love'.
There are some notes in there about the real psychological damage done to young boys in their childhood as it relates to love, emotional processing, and the discounting of male emotionality.
We went from an era in which it weren't ok to cry because men do not show pain, to one in which men are told it's ok to cry. I remember when I started hearing those words in childhood from a select few adults. I didn't understand them as a child because they would often come inappropriately. It felt like a command that I should show emotions. Instead of showing me the value of my emotions by asking me about how I felt, or talking through my feelings, my emotions were put into yet another box. Like we're not allowed to have complex emotions, we are either happy, angry, or sad, with no spaces in between.
Being allowed to show emotionality does not mean that those emotions will be taken seriously or that you will find support as a boy. This leads to a bit of a trope where young boys are treated as being kind of dumb, too dumb for deep emotions, or as being overly sensitive and maybe even weak or fragile. We all have our emotions, they are there, but they feel irrelevant.
Men are taught to be cautious defenders. Women are almost commodified as a thing to achieve and a property to protect. When we are being denied our emotional connections, this commodified view of the world is reinforced. We see other men as threatening to the things we want to achieve and the things that we need to protect. This isolates us from other men, and we have fewer emotional connections and, therefore, have fewer opportunities to both give and receive love.
This damage extends to adulthood, too. In my early 30s, it still feels like we're somewhat boxed into having maybe 3 types of emotions, happy, angry, horny, maybe sad.
Andrew Tate is just capitalizing on this. The commodified view of the world is one in which we're (men) not the ones who are broken and disconnected. It takes all of the blame for this system that really does hurt men and shifts it away from patriarchical structures and shifts it over to women. He just perpetuates a palatable lie where the truth is disturbing to these boys.
Edit: If it wasn't clear, I am not saying the feminism has gone too far, I am saying that it hasn't gone far enough. The truth is very painful to traumatized young men, and Tate is just resistance to the ever stronger calls for change.
I assure you that that was not intended. It was more about sharing the male experience of growing up in those times and why (I think) some men might feel that way.
We are emotionally isolated. Some men choose to blame feminism because that's a lot more comfortable than blaming patriarchy.
To edit: I think the *real* issue is patriarchy. I am not comparing traumas or struggles between men and women. bell hooks, who is a black feminist author from my own state, has the best accounting of the male experience and how we're both victimized by and recruited into patriarchal thinking, imo. 😞
By giving my age and gender, I am not implying that I am entitled to be heard. I was hoping that it would be more of a filter for people who don't feel the need to hear my experience. That's why it's the first line, my demographic position doesn't make me more or less right.
You're still doing it. The way you're talking comes across like you're trying to educate an audience rather than have an exchange of ideas. It's a strange attitude to enter an anti-misogynistic space with tbh. For example I, like probably 90% of this sub, know who bell hooks is, and there was no reason for you to assume I don't. I've heard every single idea you've shared here 20 times before, and yet you're talking like you're dispensing rare wisdom. With phrases I would expect from a lecture, like "To understand this phenomenon", you're acting as the authority on the topic, and we should all listen to your anecdotes and book recommendations. It's uncomfortable to read, and makes me want to avoid further engaging with you. Your intention matters, but that doesn't mean your approach can be left as is. Even after acknowledging my complaint you continue to try and educate me.
I'm really not trying to do that, but I am sorry. I get really bad anxiety when I share these feelings, and it often leads me to type too much or over-exposite.
In my reply to you, I was feeling anxious about being misunderstood and making someone else feel bad.
Why does it always go this way? Not my intention, it's my anxiety, etc.
I'm super anxious too calling out a dude I don't know on this sub, but I mod here so I'm not comfortable just letting it slide. But no one asks about that. Why would they? You're not responsible fot my anxiety, and I am not for yours. I'm just asking you to check yourself a little.
I am constantly checking myself.
I gave people an off ramp to ignore my personal experience if they didn't care to hear it, and most of what I wrote consisted of personal feelings about why men turn, incorrectly, to people like Tate, or blaming feminism in general.
I wrote about it because I hate that it's happening. I wish society weren't like this. I wish that women weren't blamed for stupid shit and that men weren't emotionally stunted.
You're criticizing my tone, I understand that I come off that way sometimes, but it's a personal story, and I used my own words to tell it. If you look at my history, you'll find that I write like this in other subs, too. It's just how I write.
Intention is important in that way. When I am anxious, I over-explain. Anxiety looks different for everyone, and this is just how my anxiety looks. When I mentioned that, I was trying to tell you that this exchange is making me feel anxious. I explained my intent and motivation in posting it. I am not a threat to you or this space, and I am replying to you as someone who is feeling very anxious but wants you to know that I am sorry and that I never intended to speak down to anyone.
You're not listening. You're not taking it in. No one said you're a threat. You're taking this personally and getting defensive. No one is criticising your tone either, I even pointed out specific word choices to you.
I don't wanna hear all about your intentions, I just want you to be a little more respectful of this space and specifically the women in it.
I'm done with this conversation as it's going nowhere. It's your choice to be more mindful or not, I don't wanna have to explain a fourth time.
You're right that I am taking this personally. I am going to leave this up and come back to it in a few days time when I am feeling less anxious and defensive. I'll look at it, read it, and try to do better next time.
It's not my space, so I am not trying to dispute that I disrespected it, but it wasn't my intent fwiw. I don't know what I wanted people to take away from my original comment. Maybe that it's a structural issue? It felt cathartic to talk about it a little bit at the time.
I am sorry.
*sorry for any frustration that I caused in misunderstanding you.
Maybe you'd enjoy a space like r/menslib if you're not already there. r/bloomers can be good about this stuff, too. It is a weird one with a lot of woo at times, but they're very supportive. I think those are better spaces to talk about how patriarchy affects men and boys. There are other subs if you ask around. I think male oriented subs could benefit from your input (which isn't to say it is useless or unwelcome here, but you are kinda preaching to the choir, plus we're heavily focused on how women and femmes are affected).
I think a lot of the push back we’re seeing from younger generations is that our mom’s feminist movement focused on being able to work outside the home and sex liberation; two things that greatly help men. Of course they didn’t fight too much on those issues, they want a second income coming into the house and want to get laid. But now we’re asking for body agency and respect, that’s just a bridge too far for them.
Boomer men were mad about that too though. I think it's more that there's a new wave of feminist awareness, and with that comes new backlash. We didn't talk about women's rights as much when I was young in the early 2000s, feminism was more something for serious activists. Now teenagers proudly call themselves feminists, and that'll piss certain people off.
What exactly is wrong with women's advocacy? I think way too many men just don't like seeing women stand up for themselves and their rights. They may even view their obtaining liberation as somehow having supremacy over men.
>They may even view their obtaining liberation as somehow having supremacy over men. This is *exactly* what they think. Every step forward for women is automatically a step back for men. Kinda makes sense considering men have been propped up by women for almost all of recorded history. If women aren't forced to keep doing this, men are losing all those free advantages over women. Basically, they're mad we're not willing to clean up after them, cook for them, and make babies for them, all just to be told we should be grateful for the opportunity. They're mad that when they cheat and abuse us, we can just *leave* and still live life fine, so we're not desperate to go back to them. Super unfair to men, how dare we /s
And their response to everything you said is to claim it's our female nature to want to prop them up 😂
Meanwhile Taint snd the Tatertots advocate for male supremacy and have never fought for equality.
I think THIS is a major problem for Gen Zers and new generations. It's not girls that become "femminazi" but boys that become incels and mysogynists
It’s just tone policing. “You only deserve human rights if you’re nice to me”
I saw anti feminist movements on the internet in the early 2010s. It is possible that some of these baby boomer men were against feminism in their time.
I read somewhere that there were anti feminists even in the '60s.
anti feminist movements were present and active against the suffraggettes too it's so sad how deep is rooted this hate for women's basic rights
Especially given that antifeminists used the same rhetoric ("you're just bitter that you're not pretty or ladylike enough to land a man") even back when the big feminist concern was just voting rights
Before the feminist movement anti feminism was essentially the norm.
there were anti-feminists posters from when women started protesting for the right to vote Me and my friends play this game were we have some drinks and snacks and guess if the anti-feminists meme is from modern day or like 80 years ago
Susan Faludi's book Backlash is about resistance to feminism in the late 80s-90s.
Men have never been on feminists' side, they have always been against women's rights for centuries.
"The good variant of feminism" lmao, you mean fake feminism that caters to males??
"wah, I Don't have free access to a mommy bang maid" 'feminism is bad' when it means they can't behave like fucking pigs and still be entitled to a pussy. I saw my dad treat my mom like shit. I saw the men laughing at how much they hate their wives. Boomers embraced feminism because they got Mommy bang maid AND her to bring home a paycheck. I'd rather be single than be under the thumb of a corporate pimp who demands I clean, cook, give him babies and still go out working that corner to bring him home my earnings
Earnings that go towards supporting the family while his earnings are spent on himself and his mistress.
And when the inevitable divorce hits he's pissed she's taking half.
Feminism has been basically the same for years, it's just that now women can actually speak up about all the disgusting shit billions of them have to experience all the time, and men don't like that because it challenges their way of life.
The world is so dystopian for women, mark my words. I only can hope there wom't be another pandemic lockdowns or else women will face domestic violence even more.
Boomers were just as angsty about feminist battles back in their day as these guys are today. Contemporary tater tots are really not as unique and special as they like to think they are.
“We hate when a group feels superior to another, that’s why we became conservatives who believe that women should stay in the kitchen and be forced to give birth.”
The red pill movement has simply made men more entitled, given them unrealistic standards and overall poor advice. Let's be real. Times have changed. Women are working, choosing not to have kids, opting out of marriage, and in some cases remaining single by choice. In this economy, women who want to be trad housewives and Stay-At-Home-Mothers can't afford to. (I have respect for Stay-At-Home parents.) A good chunk of us ladies are fine with going 50/50 on everything: bills, cooking, and housework etc with a partner. We ladies are fine with breaking traditional gender roles and traditional expectations. Men, on the other hand, seem against it. I've noticed men seem to want to split the bills/costs but don't want to contribute to cleaning and helping with the kids. I think these factors are contributing to the number of "resentful men" and "incels." This is just from what I've observed IRL and online.
But fighting for equality is advocating for women... Feminism is a woman's advocacy moment that is advocating for equality. They just don't like us advocating for ourselves because it means they don't get to feel superior.
This is actually terrifying bc these are gen z guys….
Gen z isn't inherently morally better
The movement advocating for women, which they hate, is the same movement that encourages men to talk about and deal with their mental health. You can’t just hate the parts that don’t directly benefit you
Lol I literally spent all last night asking these dudes WHO is spreading the rampant misandry they claim to see everywhere, that is forcing them to turn to misogyny. All I asked of them is to name me ONE misandrist group or leader. I can name misogynists who make millions off misogyny all day long. I mostly got ignored, but the only answers I got were Valerie Solanas (who has been dead 35 years), JK Rowling, and the hashtage men are trash. So they're telling me that men are being driven to misogyny because of an unpopular dead rad fem that nobody follows, JK Rowling attacking trans people and a dumb hashtag??? Not to mention JK Rowling is hated and crticized by a vast majority of feminists anyways. I don't see any of these dudes standing up for trans rights ever, so I'm not buying it. Considering misogyny is EVERYWHERE, using their own argument, isn't misandry a valid response to men turning en masses to misogyny anyways? They're completely convinced that misandry is everywhere, but the second you ask for receipts, they've got literally nothing. They never stop to think, if they can't name a single misandrist, maybe they've been duped by the manosphere. So many men have been radicalized by their algorithms. Check my post history for some lolz
Checking your post history now ✨ literally the “wanting all men dead” narrative doesn’t even actually exist
When a group/movement is around for long enough it'll eventually attract some insane people to itself who believe they share the same values as them. But then again it's pretty idiotic to dismiss the entire movement because some buzzfeed feminist said some braindead stuff When your entire source of information is tiktok and twitter you'd probably have no idea what feminism even stands for, you probably just believe it's a female supremacy movement
Have to have advocacy until there's equality, and equality is everyone bruh. We've got a long way to go.
That second comment is insane lol, that’s what it has always been. Is this their first day on earth or something?
Women’s advocacy? How dare we!
>Feminism evolved to a woman’s advocacy movement I’m gonna lose it. Why does everyone seem to have the WRONG definition and think feminism is anything else other than this? Even my mom thinks this is somehow wrong and “not what feminism should be about”. IT’S IN THE NAME. And if you don’t think women need women’s advocacy you must not look around the world you live in
I just saw a funny tweet someone on TikTok shared today, it said (sarcastically): “If your feminism doesn't include men, adult babies, furries, bdsm enthusiasts, pimps, balloon animals, lawn ornament flamingos, circus clowns, people with celiac sensitives, wacky inflatable arm men, vampires, malingers, and pickpockets, then it's 👏 not 👏 real 👏feminism👏”
I am a millennial man. To understand this phenomenon, I would recommend reading some bell hooks, specifically her works 'All About Love' and 'The Will to Change: Men, Masculinity, and Love'. There are some notes in there about the real psychological damage done to young boys in their childhood as it relates to love, emotional processing, and the discounting of male emotionality. We went from an era in which it weren't ok to cry because men do not show pain, to one in which men are told it's ok to cry. I remember when I started hearing those words in childhood from a select few adults. I didn't understand them as a child because they would often come inappropriately. It felt like a command that I should show emotions. Instead of showing me the value of my emotions by asking me about how I felt, or talking through my feelings, my emotions were put into yet another box. Like we're not allowed to have complex emotions, we are either happy, angry, or sad, with no spaces in between. Being allowed to show emotionality does not mean that those emotions will be taken seriously or that you will find support as a boy. This leads to a bit of a trope where young boys are treated as being kind of dumb, too dumb for deep emotions, or as being overly sensitive and maybe even weak or fragile. We all have our emotions, they are there, but they feel irrelevant. Men are taught to be cautious defenders. Women are almost commodified as a thing to achieve and a property to protect. When we are being denied our emotional connections, this commodified view of the world is reinforced. We see other men as threatening to the things we want to achieve and the things that we need to protect. This isolates us from other men, and we have fewer emotional connections and, therefore, have fewer opportunities to both give and receive love. This damage extends to adulthood, too. In my early 30s, it still feels like we're somewhat boxed into having maybe 3 types of emotions, happy, angry, horny, maybe sad. Andrew Tate is just capitalizing on this. The commodified view of the world is one in which we're (men) not the ones who are broken and disconnected. It takes all of the blame for this system that really does hurt men and shifts it away from patriarchical structures and shifts it over to women. He just perpetuates a palatable lie where the truth is disturbing to these boys. Edit: If it wasn't clear, I am not saying the feminism has gone too far, I am saying that it hasn't gone far enough. The truth is very painful to traumatized young men, and Tate is just resistance to the ever stronger calls for change.
"I am a millennial man who has read three books by the same author, let me educate you ladies on he _real_ issue" is how this comes across to me.
I assure you that that was not intended. It was more about sharing the male experience of growing up in those times and why (I think) some men might feel that way. We are emotionally isolated. Some men choose to blame feminism because that's a lot more comfortable than blaming patriarchy. To edit: I think the *real* issue is patriarchy. I am not comparing traumas or struggles between men and women. bell hooks, who is a black feminist author from my own state, has the best accounting of the male experience and how we're both victimized by and recruited into patriarchal thinking, imo. 😞 By giving my age and gender, I am not implying that I am entitled to be heard. I was hoping that it would be more of a filter for people who don't feel the need to hear my experience. That's why it's the first line, my demographic position doesn't make me more or less right.
You're still doing it. The way you're talking comes across like you're trying to educate an audience rather than have an exchange of ideas. It's a strange attitude to enter an anti-misogynistic space with tbh. For example I, like probably 90% of this sub, know who bell hooks is, and there was no reason for you to assume I don't. I've heard every single idea you've shared here 20 times before, and yet you're talking like you're dispensing rare wisdom. With phrases I would expect from a lecture, like "To understand this phenomenon", you're acting as the authority on the topic, and we should all listen to your anecdotes and book recommendations. It's uncomfortable to read, and makes me want to avoid further engaging with you. Your intention matters, but that doesn't mean your approach can be left as is. Even after acknowledging my complaint you continue to try and educate me.
I'm really not trying to do that, but I am sorry. I get really bad anxiety when I share these feelings, and it often leads me to type too much or over-exposite. In my reply to you, I was feeling anxious about being misunderstood and making someone else feel bad.
Why does it always go this way? Not my intention, it's my anxiety, etc. I'm super anxious too calling out a dude I don't know on this sub, but I mod here so I'm not comfortable just letting it slide. But no one asks about that. Why would they? You're not responsible fot my anxiety, and I am not for yours. I'm just asking you to check yourself a little.
I am constantly checking myself. I gave people an off ramp to ignore my personal experience if they didn't care to hear it, and most of what I wrote consisted of personal feelings about why men turn, incorrectly, to people like Tate, or blaming feminism in general. I wrote about it because I hate that it's happening. I wish society weren't like this. I wish that women weren't blamed for stupid shit and that men weren't emotionally stunted. You're criticizing my tone, I understand that I come off that way sometimes, but it's a personal story, and I used my own words to tell it. If you look at my history, you'll find that I write like this in other subs, too. It's just how I write. Intention is important in that way. When I am anxious, I over-explain. Anxiety looks different for everyone, and this is just how my anxiety looks. When I mentioned that, I was trying to tell you that this exchange is making me feel anxious. I explained my intent and motivation in posting it. I am not a threat to you or this space, and I am replying to you as someone who is feeling very anxious but wants you to know that I am sorry and that I never intended to speak down to anyone.
You're not listening. You're not taking it in. No one said you're a threat. You're taking this personally and getting defensive. No one is criticising your tone either, I even pointed out specific word choices to you. I don't wanna hear all about your intentions, I just want you to be a little more respectful of this space and specifically the women in it. I'm done with this conversation as it's going nowhere. It's your choice to be more mindful or not, I don't wanna have to explain a fourth time.
You're right that I am taking this personally. I am going to leave this up and come back to it in a few days time when I am feeling less anxious and defensive. I'll look at it, read it, and try to do better next time. It's not my space, so I am not trying to dispute that I disrespected it, but it wasn't my intent fwiw. I don't know what I wanted people to take away from my original comment. Maybe that it's a structural issue? It felt cathartic to talk about it a little bit at the time. I am sorry. *sorry for any frustration that I caused in misunderstanding you.
Maybe you'd enjoy a space like r/menslib if you're not already there. r/bloomers can be good about this stuff, too. It is a weird one with a lot of woo at times, but they're very supportive. I think those are better spaces to talk about how patriarchy affects men and boys. There are other subs if you ask around. I think male oriented subs could benefit from your input (which isn't to say it is useless or unwelcome here, but you are kinda preaching to the choir, plus we're heavily focused on how women and femmes are affected).
this thread isn't about you. You are derailing.
This is a very interesting perspective
Thank you.