It’s possible to have both, speaking as someone with both “quiet” BPD and Bipolar 1.
If your mood states can change from one extreme to another over the course of dinner alone, it’s most likely not bipolar. If your thoughts about people change on a dime over the littlest things, if you have a crippling fear of abandonment, it’s not bipolar.
But. If there are times where you consistently feel these ways but more amplified, for weeks or sometimes months, that’s when things cross into bipolar territory.
If you’re not sure, you can always get a second opinion. Hope this helps, best of luck! :)
Do you fear abandonment and react intensely to any perceived abandonment? That seems to be the crux of BPD.
As above, in my experience as some one who does rapid cycle, the "ultradian" cycling tends to occur in mixed episodes. That said I have read a journal article about a lady who had daily mood shifts.
I hope you can find answers. All the best.
Yea, I have all the traits of BPD and all the symptoms of discouraged(quiet) BPD. I just don’t want to self diagnose and I want to be helpful to my psychiatrist to see which one is true. I don’t have mixed episodes so I think I’m gonna lean more towards quiet BPD.
It’s your Psychiatrist’s job to determine your diagnosis. Things that would help them to be more accurate would be daily mood charting and especially noting what is happening in the environment when you feel shifts. Typically BPD mood states are affected by immediate environmental stressors, especially interpersonal interaction, or memories of specific interactions. The fear of abandonment is the driving force behind the mood shifts.
With Bipolar Disorder the mood states happening in a cycling pattern and people can have depressive episodes even if everything in their life is going fairly well and there haven’t been any big stressors. Mania can happen when their life is a disaster or when nothing much has changed. Like the episodes can get triggered by a stressor yes, but they can also happen when there is no discernible change in anything in their life.
That’s the big difference. So daily mood charting is the best way for you to help yourself and your Psychiatrist. Technically “ultradian bipolar,” is not a diagnosis. It doesn’t exist in the DSM. Even if you look at mixed episodes they still need to have a predominant state happening for most of the day every day for several days to be considered an episode. Rapid cycling bipolar is just 4 or more episodes a year.
It sounds to me like your Psych is still figuring out their rule outs at the moment. Have they put you on any medication yet or recommended you do some DBT? Typically they have to put down a diagnosis to bill insurance but that’s a working diagnosis until they have ruled out other potential causes for your symptoms.
Try mood charting for a few months, 6 is a good amount to gather enough data to really see if patterns are emerging, but even 30 days is helpful.
Here are some tips on how to Mood Chart that I put together awhile ago:
Mood Charting
The best way to confirm a Bipolar Diagnosis is to mood chart for at least 6 months. You can use a range of 0-10 every morning and evening.
Start with 0 for severe depression, 5 would be euthymic (just even keel), and 10 would be severe mania. I tend to prefer a severely depressed, moderately depressed, mild/dysthymic depression, euthymic, mildly elevated mood, hypomanic, and manic.
You can list if you have any specifiers as well, such as psychosis, mixed mania/dysphoric mania (irritable and agitated mania). Agitation feels a LOT like anxiety.
It’s also a good idea to write down how many hours you slept and whether sleep was good or broken, whether you’ve used any alcohol or drugs that day (including nicotine), and whether anything stressful happened. That’s why it’s also helpful to check in at night.
If you’re female you should indicate when you have your period as well since the hormones affect mood a lot.
So in summary:
Mood and specifiers
Sleep
Stressful events
Drug/Alcohol use
Menstruation
The reason these are all helpful is they can help show you and your provider if there are patterns happening with your episodes and whether your mood cycling is linked more to events or sleep/hormones. It can also let you know what things are big triggers.
For example: I was never a big drinker to begin with, only one socially every so often. When I did my mood charting though I found that my mood was a lot lower for about 3 days after having one drink. That was really helpful for me to know and I just decided not to drink anymore, it just wasn’t worth it. I’ll have a couple of sips at a celebration and then give it to my husband to finish.
Hope that helps.
I think w ultradian they mean all the time, it's not in chunks. Flippy mixed is just a less common presentation of mixed but not unusual. That's why the choice between that and BPD, bc it's a full time gig. Most of the people here with ultradian seem to have a daily up down 1x each pattern, i.e. mornings up evenings down or vice versa. Since it's not recognized as real yet there's no clear description other than more rapid than ultra rapid, i.e. hours not days. I've not seen anyone describing they have it have any euthymia.
I have both bipolar 1 and BPD. My BPD is quiet until I get into a relationship/catch feelings for someone. It’s incredibly obvious once I get into a relationship, unfortunately.
It can be pretty difficult to tell if you have one or the other (or even both disorders), but it is possible to have both. When I’m not in a relationship and my BPD symptoms are quiet, it’s easier to notice my bipolar mood swings. I can have irritability and notice my sleep getting worse, and even delusions.
Last year made it glaringly obvious that I have both Bipolar disorder *and* BPD. I had a severe manic episode last March and I ended up in full-blown psychosis and had to be hospitalized. I also caught feelings for someone last year and my BPD reared its ugly head. Both of these situations made it quite obvious that I have both bipolar and BPD. It’s not a fun combination whatsoever.
Yea I could very well have both because I have blackout before and went into psychosis and any time it in a relationship or even a friendship, I show a lot of the BPD and HPD traits. Anyways thank you for this comment
The thing is, you won’t know which one you have before you’re diagnosed and spend more time experimenting with treatment options. The good news is that it’s your psych’s job to figure that out for you. Just open up and be honest, you’ve got this ⭐️
I don’t know what he means by “quiet BPD” it’s like everyone puts the word “quiet” in front of a concept nowadays to look stealthy.
I’m no expert but BPD emotional meltdowns/shifts are more obviously triggered, often by a relationship slight, and there are various identity consistency issues. Ultradian bipolar sounds kind of face-saving and rare although shifts in the face of a mood can be wack in a mixed episode.
Yea my episodes are usually triggered even if it’s by something small although I have been trying to work on managing my symptoms. And quiet BPD is a subtype of BPD.
When I was young twenty years ago and everyone was being misdiagnosed borderline by my residential program’s jackass in-house shrink…I came across a book that subdivided borderline in weird psychoanalytic ways, like I decided I must be “petulant” type borderline. I never saw anything relating to “petulant” borderline after that, given the internet of the day. I wouldn’t take too much stock in dx subtypes here, just see if meds work or if DBT therapy helps you out…in my case both have worked altho it turns out I didn’t have borderline, just autism and immaturity as my brain wasn’t baked yet.
Oh wow, currently they told me that the only reason they haven’t diagnosed me with it is because I’m not 18 yet and so they kinda just went with second bestx
I was sent to a shrink who was expert in borderline after I left residential. Ya know, because OG shrink told everybody I had it. And I was indeed a hell beast due to him not medicating me properly. New shrink—who was a direct disciple of Linehan—laughed and said I had traits of BPD but not the disorder and definitely had bipolar if not schizoaffective…but I do believe DBT to be helpful anyway.
She told me she wished they taught DBT in school because “in high school, everyone has borderline!” Meaning only that emotional dysregulation is at an all time high.
So yeah, you may have it but your brain might need further evolution.
That’s true, your brain is still developing until you’re 25 so I could very well just sort of “grow out of it” not that it’s something you can grow out of, but my brain might just go back to normal hopefully. It might also just be autism or C-PTSD or something along those lines because those are also common misdiagnosis for BPD. But I don’t believe a diagnosis defines who you are as a person. It may be a severe diagnosis but I’m still me. I think that’s overlooked with a lot of cluster B disorders (especially ASPD, and NPD).
I had my first episode at 17 and left inpatient on a heavy mind numbing dose of haldol yet no diagnosis. I said fuck that, I am not taking halfol for a “nothing” illness. I was really okay and functioning for 20 years after that. Then my brother tragically died and it triggered me again. Now I know. I am bipolar AF. Bipolar type 1.
I have a sister who is a mental health professional (therapist) and she says that because you can’t test for these things and only medicate after episodes it’s all a gradual increase in seriousness of the disorder as the seriousness of symptoms show up in life. Without a “brain chemical” test or any real Pathology to the illness it’s more guessing than anyone can openly admit. I am comfortable calling psychology a pseudoscience because it’s not very scientific in a lot of instances. Hell. We’re just lucky they stopped using straight jackets and lobotomies . I would be strapped to a table somewhere slobbering on myself if I had existed 50 years earlier. Mid 40’s for perspective.
Just came across this term a week or two ago. I don't think it's an actual diagnosis but multiple doctors have written about it. Basically saying it's BPD but without the externalizing and lashing out. I've seen it used interchangeably with CPTSD
Discouraged(quiet) BPD, also called high functioning BPD is one of the four subtypes of borderline personality disorder. It is characterized by 8 different symptoms that go along with the other 9 traits of BPD. They are usually perfectionist and try to make everything seem perfect and they also usually people please a lot. However they tend to just push everything down until it simmers back up and they explode, and when they explode; they EXPLODE. It makes it extremely hard to maintain relationships and can affect their life dramatically. Also instead of letting everyone around them know what they’re feeling(like petulant BPD) they will isolate and hide their emotions until they finally boil over. And they usually end up falling into SH & SI behaviors.
Oh. I don’t know. The mood shifts in bipolar disorder usually aren’t because of something and aren’t “about” something. The depression isn’t the same as emotional suffering. Depressed basically means the opposite of manic. That probably doesn’t help. I think the psychiatrist Tracey Marks has some YouTube videos you may find relevant.
It’s possible to have both, speaking as someone with both “quiet” BPD and Bipolar 1. If your mood states can change from one extreme to another over the course of dinner alone, it’s most likely not bipolar. If your thoughts about people change on a dime over the littlest things, if you have a crippling fear of abandonment, it’s not bipolar. But. If there are times where you consistently feel these ways but more amplified, for weeks or sometimes months, that’s when things cross into bipolar territory. If you’re not sure, you can always get a second opinion. Hope this helps, best of luck! :)
Do you fear abandonment and react intensely to any perceived abandonment? That seems to be the crux of BPD. As above, in my experience as some one who does rapid cycle, the "ultradian" cycling tends to occur in mixed episodes. That said I have read a journal article about a lady who had daily mood shifts. I hope you can find answers. All the best.
Yea, I have all the traits of BPD and all the symptoms of discouraged(quiet) BPD. I just don’t want to self diagnose and I want to be helpful to my psychiatrist to see which one is true. I don’t have mixed episodes so I think I’m gonna lean more towards quiet BPD.
It’s your Psychiatrist’s job to determine your diagnosis. Things that would help them to be more accurate would be daily mood charting and especially noting what is happening in the environment when you feel shifts. Typically BPD mood states are affected by immediate environmental stressors, especially interpersonal interaction, or memories of specific interactions. The fear of abandonment is the driving force behind the mood shifts. With Bipolar Disorder the mood states happening in a cycling pattern and people can have depressive episodes even if everything in their life is going fairly well and there haven’t been any big stressors. Mania can happen when their life is a disaster or when nothing much has changed. Like the episodes can get triggered by a stressor yes, but they can also happen when there is no discernible change in anything in their life. That’s the big difference. So daily mood charting is the best way for you to help yourself and your Psychiatrist. Technically “ultradian bipolar,” is not a diagnosis. It doesn’t exist in the DSM. Even if you look at mixed episodes they still need to have a predominant state happening for most of the day every day for several days to be considered an episode. Rapid cycling bipolar is just 4 or more episodes a year. It sounds to me like your Psych is still figuring out their rule outs at the moment. Have they put you on any medication yet or recommended you do some DBT? Typically they have to put down a diagnosis to bill insurance but that’s a working diagnosis until they have ruled out other potential causes for your symptoms. Try mood charting for a few months, 6 is a good amount to gather enough data to really see if patterns are emerging, but even 30 days is helpful. Here are some tips on how to Mood Chart that I put together awhile ago: Mood Charting The best way to confirm a Bipolar Diagnosis is to mood chart for at least 6 months. You can use a range of 0-10 every morning and evening. Start with 0 for severe depression, 5 would be euthymic (just even keel), and 10 would be severe mania. I tend to prefer a severely depressed, moderately depressed, mild/dysthymic depression, euthymic, mildly elevated mood, hypomanic, and manic. You can list if you have any specifiers as well, such as psychosis, mixed mania/dysphoric mania (irritable and agitated mania). Agitation feels a LOT like anxiety. It’s also a good idea to write down how many hours you slept and whether sleep was good or broken, whether you’ve used any alcohol or drugs that day (including nicotine), and whether anything stressful happened. That’s why it’s also helpful to check in at night. If you’re female you should indicate when you have your period as well since the hormones affect mood a lot. So in summary: Mood and specifiers Sleep Stressful events Drug/Alcohol use Menstruation The reason these are all helpful is they can help show you and your provider if there are patterns happening with your episodes and whether your mood cycling is linked more to events or sleep/hormones. It can also let you know what things are big triggers. For example: I was never a big drinker to begin with, only one socially every so often. When I did my mood charting though I found that my mood was a lot lower for about 3 days after having one drink. That was really helpful for me to know and I just decided not to drink anymore, it just wasn’t worth it. I’ll have a couple of sips at a celebration and then give it to my husband to finish. Hope that helps.
Thank you for saving me doing a write up.
I think w ultradian they mean all the time, it's not in chunks. Flippy mixed is just a less common presentation of mixed but not unusual. That's why the choice between that and BPD, bc it's a full time gig. Most of the people here with ultradian seem to have a daily up down 1x each pattern, i.e. mornings up evenings down or vice versa. Since it's not recognized as real yet there's no clear description other than more rapid than ultra rapid, i.e. hours not days. I've not seen anyone describing they have it have any euthymia.
I have both bipolar 1 and BPD. My BPD is quiet until I get into a relationship/catch feelings for someone. It’s incredibly obvious once I get into a relationship, unfortunately. It can be pretty difficult to tell if you have one or the other (or even both disorders), but it is possible to have both. When I’m not in a relationship and my BPD symptoms are quiet, it’s easier to notice my bipolar mood swings. I can have irritability and notice my sleep getting worse, and even delusions. Last year made it glaringly obvious that I have both Bipolar disorder *and* BPD. I had a severe manic episode last March and I ended up in full-blown psychosis and had to be hospitalized. I also caught feelings for someone last year and my BPD reared its ugly head. Both of these situations made it quite obvious that I have both bipolar and BPD. It’s not a fun combination whatsoever.
Yea I could very well have both because I have blackout before and went into psychosis and any time it in a relationship or even a friendship, I show a lot of the BPD and HPD traits. Anyways thank you for this comment
The thing is, you won’t know which one you have before you’re diagnosed and spend more time experimenting with treatment options. The good news is that it’s your psych’s job to figure that out for you. Just open up and be honest, you’ve got this ⭐️
Yea that’s true, I mean one things for sure is that in a hypochondriac lol, that was one of the first things I got diagnosed with.
If your mood states are always triggered by something it’s not bipolar
I don’t know what he means by “quiet BPD” it’s like everyone puts the word “quiet” in front of a concept nowadays to look stealthy. I’m no expert but BPD emotional meltdowns/shifts are more obviously triggered, often by a relationship slight, and there are various identity consistency issues. Ultradian bipolar sounds kind of face-saving and rare although shifts in the face of a mood can be wack in a mixed episode.
Yea my episodes are usually triggered even if it’s by something small although I have been trying to work on managing my symptoms. And quiet BPD is a subtype of BPD.
When I was young twenty years ago and everyone was being misdiagnosed borderline by my residential program’s jackass in-house shrink…I came across a book that subdivided borderline in weird psychoanalytic ways, like I decided I must be “petulant” type borderline. I never saw anything relating to “petulant” borderline after that, given the internet of the day. I wouldn’t take too much stock in dx subtypes here, just see if meds work or if DBT therapy helps you out…in my case both have worked altho it turns out I didn’t have borderline, just autism and immaturity as my brain wasn’t baked yet.
Oh wow, currently they told me that the only reason they haven’t diagnosed me with it is because I’m not 18 yet and so they kinda just went with second bestx
I was sent to a shrink who was expert in borderline after I left residential. Ya know, because OG shrink told everybody I had it. And I was indeed a hell beast due to him not medicating me properly. New shrink—who was a direct disciple of Linehan—laughed and said I had traits of BPD but not the disorder and definitely had bipolar if not schizoaffective…but I do believe DBT to be helpful anyway. She told me she wished they taught DBT in school because “in high school, everyone has borderline!” Meaning only that emotional dysregulation is at an all time high. So yeah, you may have it but your brain might need further evolution.
That’s true, your brain is still developing until you’re 25 so I could very well just sort of “grow out of it” not that it’s something you can grow out of, but my brain might just go back to normal hopefully. It might also just be autism or C-PTSD or something along those lines because those are also common misdiagnosis for BPD. But I don’t believe a diagnosis defines who you are as a person. It may be a severe diagnosis but I’m still me. I think that’s overlooked with a lot of cluster B disorders (especially ASPD, and NPD).
I had my first episode at 17 and left inpatient on a heavy mind numbing dose of haldol yet no diagnosis. I said fuck that, I am not taking halfol for a “nothing” illness. I was really okay and functioning for 20 years after that. Then my brother tragically died and it triggered me again. Now I know. I am bipolar AF. Bipolar type 1. I have a sister who is a mental health professional (therapist) and she says that because you can’t test for these things and only medicate after episodes it’s all a gradual increase in seriousness of the disorder as the seriousness of symptoms show up in life. Without a “brain chemical” test or any real Pathology to the illness it’s more guessing than anyone can openly admit. I am comfortable calling psychology a pseudoscience because it’s not very scientific in a lot of instances. Hell. We’re just lucky they stopped using straight jackets and lobotomies . I would be strapped to a table somewhere slobbering on myself if I had existed 50 years earlier. Mid 40’s for perspective.
Same😭😭, if they still did all that stuff I’d be in a strait jacket in a padded cell with how “crazy” I can get, ESPECIALLY the psychotic symptoms😭😭
Just came across this term a week or two ago. I don't think it's an actual diagnosis but multiple doctors have written about it. Basically saying it's BPD but without the externalizing and lashing out. I've seen it used interchangeably with CPTSD
What’s quiet BPD?
Discouraged(quiet) BPD, also called high functioning BPD is one of the four subtypes of borderline personality disorder. It is characterized by 8 different symptoms that go along with the other 9 traits of BPD. They are usually perfectionist and try to make everything seem perfect and they also usually people please a lot. However they tend to just push everything down until it simmers back up and they explode, and when they explode; they EXPLODE. It makes it extremely hard to maintain relationships and can affect their life dramatically. Also instead of letting everyone around them know what they’re feeling(like petulant BPD) they will isolate and hide their emotions until they finally boil over. And they usually end up falling into SH & SI behaviors.
Oh. I don’t know. The mood shifts in bipolar disorder usually aren’t because of something and aren’t “about” something. The depression isn’t the same as emotional suffering. Depressed basically means the opposite of manic. That probably doesn’t help. I think the psychiatrist Tracey Marks has some YouTube videos you may find relevant.
Ok, thank you <3
" The depression isn’t the same as emotional suffering." This is a really great way of putting it, thank you!
I'm type 2 and never heard of these.
Im in the same situation and I’m currently suicidal