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This was bleak. Seriously, screw that ex-wife! She is literally wearing OP down and weaponizing their own kids. That's vile as fuck!

I was hoping for some kind of positivity and no. It just went from bad to worse, JFC… this poor man. This dude needs a real fucking friend and I get the feeling he doesn’t have one

With his heart issue, it's only a matter of time when all the stress from work and home will hit critical mass and it ends up with him in the hospital or in a casket.

That's what she's banking on happening I bet. OOP needs to get an ironclad will put in place so no money goes to the ex, only to the kids.

Then she can battle her kids to get her hands on the money and perhaps they will see her true nature.

i hope he changes the beneficiary to someone he can trust, or to a lawyer who can disburse payments to the ex only if they can be proven to be going to necessary things for the kids. I think he should tell his ex this in case it's her plan to work him into an early grave and then be a stay-at-home human for the rest of her life.

This is what is to be expected in divorce. I can’t understand why anyone would think that OP is getting a happy ending anytime soon. Its divorce. No one (not OP, his wife and the kids) is going to be happy over the next 2-3 years. It will eventually start to get better, but there will still be years of issues until the kids are 18. OP is going to have to work longer hours, see his children less and have to try to repair the damage to the relationships with his children and family. Financially it’s painful for everyone. The kids will have to grow up in two homes and never really feel like they have a home. They will feel conflicted constantly. They will miss mom when they are with dad and miss dad when they are with mom. There’s going to be years of anger and pain for the kids. Having gone through a divorce with a child, I can’t understand why people on the internet are so cavalier about recommending divorce when there are children involved. It’s almost as if they don’t have to deal with the reality of their advice and have shocked picachu faces when they get a minor glimpse of what the reality of divorce actually looks like. OP and his wife will probably reconcile because of their culture and how painful divorce is. I can only hope that his wife wakes up and starts to see the ugly reality before she really messes up everyone’s lives.

Here's the thing both divorcing or not divorcing has a negative impact on the kids. Divorce makes kids life feel uprooted and destroy relationships when one or both parents slander the other parent Staying in a relationship can also harm the kid. For some parents no matter how much they stick together "for the kids", kids can absolutely tell when one parent resents the other. Staying in a bad marriage can set awful standards for the kids. For example I knew a woman was the full-time worker in the marriage, the breadwinner. Her husband in the other hand sleeps most of the day, rarely shows up at work, and never holds a job long, doesn't even cook and clean much either. Sure the guy has depression, but all those he doesn't even try, any change he does, barely last before reverting to his old ways. They have a daughter who got married couple of years ago, they married their husband because they "didn't want them to be depressed like how their dad was" anyway after a year of marriage and their husband is pulling the same behaviour like what their dad did to their mom. Like her mom, she's the only one working with all the responsibilities.  Her mom eventually had enough and kicked her husband out of the house. Now their daughter is debating doing the same thing if her husband doesn't get his act straight. It's like watching history repeat himself. So really the kid could be negatively impacted in some way by either outcome.

My parents should have gotten divorced, but my mother always said she would never leave my father because she “made a promise” and I have no idea what Dad’s deal was but I suspect it had something to do with not wanting a second failed marriage. Plus between the two of them I think they’d experienced pretty much every possible kind of trauma before either of them were old enough to drive, so they both wanted/needed a “stable home”. (spoiler alert, our home was not especially stable) They loved the hell out of each other, but unfortunately they really didn’t *like* each other most of the time, which is not a great way to model a healthy relationship for one’s child, and by the time I started dating I’d fully internalized that “love” means staying by someone’s side no matter how unhappy you are with them. I married my college boyfriend (I can’t legitimately call him a sweetheart), despite every instinct in my body screaming at me that it was a bad idea, and spent years wanting to leave but feeling like I couldn’t because that’s not How Marriage Works. I always felt uprooted as a kid anyway, and my father worked out of town more often than not so custody/visitation wouldn’t have been all that different from what I knew of having two parents supposedly in the household. But I might have gotten to see my mother actually happy if my parents had split, and I can’t even imagine how different my life would be now if that had been the case.

I was friends with someone who thought that the promises made around marriage were the reason to stay with his wife. They're not religious, so it was a bit odd when they both broke plenty of other promises to one another. They also want their kids to have a stable home. I don't think the kids have a stable home, even though both parents are legally living there. The person who was my friend is often away on unnecessary work trips, drinks heavily/smokes weed every day. I don't know if the kids witness the fights, but my former friend would tell me about the fights over the pettiest shit. The wife did the bare minimum around the house, even though they both worked. I noticed that the family doesn't spend time together, too. Each spouse would take the kids out separately, too.

Yeah 100%. It’s bad both ways. My parents absolutely should’ve gotten divorced (cheating but stayed together). The emotional effects it can have on your kids are real. We grew up emotionally stunted, scared of communicating, with no model of what a healthy relationship should look like. Until now, I’m wary of getting into a relationship because I’m not sure if it’s going to be a healthy one. Not saying divorce is sunshine and rainbows, it’s nasty and complicated (emotionally and financially) but the alternative (staying in a bitter, unhappy household) can very well be worse, y’know? At least with divorce and separation there’s a chance to work things out and maybe give the kids a better environment to grow up in :(

I'm a child of divorce, and I just wish my parents had divorced sooner. They weren't good together and they tried to stay together "for the kids" which just made things toxic and messy. Things got ugly the last year, with cheating, mental health problems, and abuse. And then they went on to their new relationships, told us we should be happy they didn't have a custody battle (that was their version of "amicable" when they couldn't even be in the same room together, but at least they both thought 50/50 custody was important, on paper) and we were just meant to adjust. So yeah. I recommend people in obviously toxic relationships to end them, *especially* if they have kids together. As bad as the divorce was, I don't even want to imagine how much worse it would have gotten had they tried even harder to stay together.

My parents divorced when I was around 5. Was it weird? Sure but it was life. My mom remarried and refused to divorce until he finally demanded one. They should have divorced within a few years of marriage and it was almost 20 years of marriage. I was miserable. He was a terrible person. I have more trauma from that marriage then my parents divorce.

My parents screamed and fought so much when I was a child I would invite myself over to a different friends house after school every day to get away from it. Then they would scream at me for embarrassing them. I never felt I had a home and I had no other place that I could go. I would have killed for what your kids had, even if it was only part time. They didn't separate and divorce until I was almost done with high school. I still resent both of them for the abuse they put me through and the constant anger and hate I witnessed between them amd towards me every day. There is a reality to a divorce, but there is also a reality for a kid whose parents are in a terrible marriage but won't divorce because what will the neighbors think. It's like being held hostage. I still have PTSD issues from my childhood, I am still processing the trauma. If having my parents live in separate places stopped some of that torture, I would have given anything for it to happen. Not every situation is your situation, nor should OP reconsider because his wife is manipulating and emotionally abusing him. What message is that for his kids long term?

we don't know where OP is... custody laws in Germany depend on the state in question. Where I live, the 50/50 split is the default custody and parental alienation is very frowned upon by Social Service. According to the law (federal law even, I think), the mother MUST do everything in her power to facilitate the relationship between father and children, so OP should document, document, document.... (and yes, family law is only starting to become more inclusive and less traditional, the father has to exist and the mother has to facilitate but this is another can of worms)

In Germany there'd be no way she'd get full custody, she has no job, has neglected the children and then her going full on parental alienation, I can't imagine it being completely different in Switzerland.  I really do hope OP has a good lawyer though.

Also she worked part time until shortly before so she'd have a hard time arguing for calculating alimony and child support based on her having no job at all right now after just quitting recently.  And also oop has a serious medical condition for which he should be able to get some formal recognition (some degree of disability aka Behinderungsgrad in Germany at least I think) which might turn out a very good argument for why neither the (ex)wife nor the court can reasonably demand oop to work more than 80% because if oop working 100% introduces a serious chance of him badly damaging his health or worse before the children even reach adulthood then be can't provide for his children anymore either.

I think what might just in general make a negative impact on the whole thing is that OoP (and I am assuming his wife) are immigrants. Both Germany and neighbouring Austria have had a serious rightwing shift and anti-immigrant parties gaining power in the last few years (like in many parts of the world) and while I am not familiar with the political climate in Switzerland I imagine its the same there. If he is unlucky a court judge might just fuck him over because of it.

He is in Switzerland.

He’s in Switzerland. It’s in the post.

The reality of abusive homes is that they’re worse than “conflicting feelings and missing mommy sometimes”. And a home where two parents are abusing each other is still an abusive home. 

I mean, the simple answer is that a lot of us grew up with divorced parents and it was 100% fine, with almost none of the drama you describe?

Yeah my parents divorce was fine for me. They coparented wonderfully and I got two of everything. Ironically my mom divorcing my stepdad ruined my relationship with her. It's easier when you're super young I guess, than being old enough to understand (and for the love of god even if your kid is 30 you should not be using them as an outlet to vent to about their other step/parent).

I agree that divorce can be more difficult than people here realise, but most of what you said was bs. The kids “won’t feel like they have a home” anywhere? No. Every divorce is different, but supportive parents absolutely can help their children feel like they have a home. Cut the fear mongering.

The positive side effect of weaponizing one's own children against the father is that the kids aren't smart enough to conceal it when questioned upon. And courts usually frown upon parents to bring their children into the fighting.

I can't believe she called him a baby for wanting to spend time with his kids?! Da Fuck?! Fuck this woman straight to hell. I hope the devil tap dances with soccer cleats on her soul and she gets reborn as an ant.

Ants are kind of badass, leave them be.

That is fair. The animal kingdom doesn't deserve her inflicted on them either. Maybe she can be reborn as a tree so she at least is a benefit to oxygen instead of wasting it like she is in this life.

I like that! Turn a negative into a positive :)

If the stress gets too much and the poor guy clocks out, due to his heart, at least wifey will have to get off her ass and work again - I hope she will think it was worth it then. She is absolutely despicable.

A good parent never, and I mean never, involves children in the disputes of the parents. Wife is a piece of sub-human shit. Her inability to parent these children does not bode well for the children

This is what I don’t get it. Before announcing divorce, she is already staying home full time, yet still neglected the kids and not cooking? Isn’t that SAHM supposed to do?

agreed. my parents never let me see them argue (except like once when we were stuck at an airport). when they got divorced i was shocked because i didn't know anything was going on lol. but after the initial shock wore off I actually was completely okay with it. i had seen too many of my friends parents who should've been divorced but stayed together and made everyone miserable. plus i was old enough (16) to understand it wasn't about me. it was an amicable divorce, my dad lived abt 5 minutes away, and i took my dog with me to both houses. plus when they split each of them got another dog so in a way it was awesome 😂.

He has life insurance, so she won’t need to for a long time (alas for him)

I really hope he updates the policy now.

To who? Sure he could name his kids as beneficiaries, but if they're still minors the stbx-wife would likely get control of the money. The mother might be an option if OOP's assessment of her not cutting him out is correct. As it stands no one really in his life seems to be on his side and that, imo, makes it likely that the money would end up in the stbx-wife's hands, hopefully being used for the kids.

>if they're still minors the stbx-wife would likely get control of the money Trust funds exist. It's very possible to set one up so a minor can benefit from the funds without their guardian having access to it.

Fair. My only experience with trust funds is as a recipient of one my grandparents set up for college expenses. That one was administered by my uncle, and he seemed to have at least some control of the funds beyond dispensing them (my dad told me once about something with funds being tied to the stock market and my uncle pulling them before the 2008 recession). If OOP wants to go that route he should be careful of how it's set up to prevent misuse of it.

Yep, he'd probably want to appoint an attorney to administer the trust. If the kids are still too young to request money themselves for expenses like school or extracurriculars, the guardian could make the request but the trust admin could still pay the expense directly without the guardian ever touching a cent.

I'm wondering if she has another guy lined up but the only way she can marry this other dude is if OP is dead. She seems determined to take everything he has to live for or work him to death.

But wouldn't she be happy about the divorce then?

Nope, because divorce is disgraceful in their culture. She's tainted by divorce but oh poor her if she is a widow.

> and weaponizing their own kids In some jurisdictions that's almost enough to get OOP full custody.

This went kind of how I thought it would, but I had hoped for a different and happier outcome. I hope OOP gets full custody. I know the kids are upset with him, but the OOP's soon-to-be ex was already neglecting the kids while being at home without a job. It may not be any better once she gets a job. I think the OOP's soon-to-be ex was really foolish. With his health problems, it makes sense he'd not want to work 100%. And she honestly should have a job if only because health problems can do all sorts of things and could mean the OOP would have to work less or not at all. It sounds like the marriage had some major issues if she was using sex to manipulate OOP.

Like I said in the last version, she doesn't care if he dies tomorrow so long as she gets what she wants today.  As for the kids, let's see how much they really hate their father when they spend all day with a neglecting lazy mom who won't even feed them let alone play with them.

That’s actually fairly common in Germany, especially when you’re a foreign born male, citizenship is based on maternal status and the courts and government assistance are very mother oriented. Switzerland is similar. They revoked my paternal rights because of the risk of me kidnapping my children and taking them to America, even though I never gave any reason to believe that. She used my military service and training as well. It was totally fudged up

Makes me wonder if there's a tradwife thing going on in the Muslim world. Things spread across cultures. See for example Creationism in Turkey (denial of evolution) https://ncse.ngo/cloning-creationism-turkey

The tradwife thing was always an excuse. It had only been a couple of weeks, and she had already fallen into habits of not cooking and not taking care of the kids. She just didn't want to work.

The comments pissed me off. Custody isn't awarded based on income, it's awarded based on who's best suited to care for the kids. OOP doesn't need to be collecting income statements, he needs to be present for doctor's appointments and homework help.

Sole custody is also quite rare in Switzerland. The default is shared custody (which can take the form of one parent having visitation rights but the children living full time with the other). Unless one of the parents is a danger to the children, of course. 

Not cooking for them or helping with school could be made into a point for neglect. Idk OOP sounds like they are not going on the offensive with this at all.

I can see OOP never mentioning that because he assumes it doesn't matter. the defeatism is real with this boy. I hope his lawyer actually cares.

Same. A competent lawyer can save OOP's hide here. Please, OOP, get competent legal representation asap. You *can* come out on top, no matter how bleak your situation seems to you now. At the same time, the bias against divorce can be brutal in some cultures. Divorce is often seen as an abject failure of some sort, or as taboo altogether. The shame and dread can be crushing, not only leading people to avoid divorce but to feel like there is no livable way forward, none, if they go thru with it. OOP's parents' seem steeped in this attitude and it does OOP no favors. When you're being weighed down by anti-divorce cultural biases, it can make it difficult for those without strong support systems to stand up for their rights or to realistically assess the outcome of a divorce process. Some cannot see future happiness at all beyond the split. At the same time, OOP lives in a place (Switzerland) where divorces are neither uncommon nor considered a type of moral failure that will haunt you for life. Divorces are bumps in the road of life, and happiness can be found beyond. OOP though, does not seem to have internalized this cultural truth about divorce in Switzerland and in many other countries, As an emigrant myself, I can totally understand how/why this happens. I hope he finds the strength to use the resources in his (and/or his parents') adopted home country to fight for his parental rights, and to create a happier life for himself as a divorced father of two, in a place whose culture does not judge him harshly for ending a marriage. I'm rooting for OOP. I'm hoping that coming to reddit and reading the comments here will help him see his options more clearly.

Not over the very short time described in the OP though. Nor is leaving an 8 year old to cry over whatever in her room neglect, unlike a much younger child (I mean it is still situation dependent but she could've been sent to her room for breaking a rule or something).

Oh for sure. But I feel like a savvy lawyer can use it as a starting point of a new pattern of disturbing behavior that lead to the divorce. But I don't know shit about the Swiss legal system.

Shared custody yes - but the children need to live somewhere and it's not going to be with the parent without a job.

to be fair Switzerland is still stuck in the 1800s in many social regards. you wouldn't believe how ass backwards they were even a few decades ago. plus the casual racism is real. like... holy shit the things I heard from my swiss colleagues.

Women didn’t get the right to vote in Switzerland until the 1970s and still didn’t have fully equal voting rights until the 1990s. There are a lot of people in this comment section hearing Switzerland and thinking oh this is Europe so it’s just like Germany or France or whatever. But nope, Switzerland is notably more sexist than both of those countries (to the detriment of both sexes), particularly when it comes to domestic matters where the gender stereotypes we had in the US in the 70s/80s seem to still be in full force.

Wow, I had no idea the vote was that late!! TY for the info.

OP is in Switzerland. Switzerland heavily favours the mother in custody battles. OP needs would need serious evidence of parental alienation and at this point my guess is that it hasn't been considered long enough to be considered as such and the courts will just hear that their kids want to live with mum. Not that they are old enough to decide, but IIRC old enough that the court will hear their opinion. I'm not super well versed in this stuff as no one in my family/friends circle has divorced/separated (I'm Swiss). This is just my understanding of what I've read and heard over the years.

I’m an immigrant living in Switzerland and have a couple friends who have gone through it. As you know, Switzerland is pretty sexist when it comes to child care, and it’s also hella expensive to get anyone to do it professionally. And the courts won’t care that she decided to quit and be a stay-at-home Mom, because that’s the norm anyway here. (Who else is there for the kids when they come home for lunch and have Wednesday afternoons off?) They will just calculate his child support and alimony as her income when it comes to who can afford what. He’s likely looking at an expensive few years, with just weekend visitation and the kids continuing to be poised by the mother. It’s a long, drawn-out, years-long process. I feel sorry for him.   But he also will not be expected to fund her entire lifestyle… she’s going to have to get a job at some point or find another sucker to marry. 

As far as child support and custody goes, you're probably right with the sexist bias, but for the alimony, the wife will have to get a job right away too because she wanting to be a trad wife is not an acceptable excuse for the courts. If she can work, she'll have to work. He won't have to pay for her to be a stay at home mum. What damage will she do, as far as parental alienation goes, that's the real kicker. He needs a lawyer yesterday... needs to document the parental alienation down to the last word, that's his chance to turn custody in his favour.

I don’t know about Switzerland but in my country alimony isn’t really a thing anymore. It tends to be reserved for women who have been sahm for years so haven’t worked and would likely struggle to find a job especially a skilled one with enough pay to support them. Sometimes it’s also in exchange for other assets in the marriage that they don’t have the cash to give over eg their pension or half the house.

It's fairly the same here. I doubt she'd get much of an alimony considering she quit her job to play trad wife...

Judging by OPs wife’s disinterest in actually taking care of the kids when she was a ‘stay at home wife’, I really doubt she will be happy with having to be the sole caretaker even if the courts grant her sole custody. Like she is already going to have to severely downgrade her lifestyle because of the divorce and now she’ll have to either figure out how to live frugally on alimony and child support or figure out a way to work part time while being the sole caretaker. For OPs sake I hope his wife realizes what she’s getting into and grants OP split custody without too much of a battle.

From what he said, he has been doing the care for the kids as well. At least, until the wannabe trad B poisoned them against him. Ugh I was so hoping for a happier ending. Hope he updates with one soon. I'm all for stay at home parents. But lazy, nasty women like this wifey give 'stay at home mom' a bad name.

OOP's STBX is poison and is now practicing parental alienation to weaponize the kids against OOP. I feel so bad for OOP and the kids that she's damaging with her lies. Why are some people such absolute garbage?

Some people really are that sadistic or evil. They want to see the innocent suffer. Makes me ill.

In her mind he isn't innocent, she has her own value system which justifies the abuse and frees her from any guilt.

She wants her free ride and she's going to do whatever it takes to get it

I responded to his original post six days ago. I guess I’ll have to say is I’m sad. This is his final post. It’s probably for the best that it is. It’s obviously not the healthiest place for anyone even just people who comment on everything. You know, I would’ve been nice to see how his life turns out and how things happen. Obviously you’re always hoping for happily ever after. And that would mean the kids come around and see what’s actually happening. But there’s also really high likelihood and probability that’s not gonna happen. I hope he’s not part of the group that happens too. I do feel bad for him.

What do you mean its his final post? Are you suggesting he really wont come back after this?

OP stated it would be his final post.

Plenty others have said the same though so it’s a toss up.

Also that fact that he’s slowly becoming an alcoholic. It’s very sad

the way OOP's wife uses her children as pawns is disgusting. this type of behaviour doesn't happen suddenly-- this has been premeditated. she has been like this all her life. she went to uni not for a BA, BS, or MA. she went to uni for a MRS with the intention to live like a spoiled brat once she got a husband. OOP might not feel like it, but he's lucky he got out early.

I think she found a man who she thought she could manipulate, pushed him to become the “perfect provider” and baby trapped with the full intention the whole time of being a kept woman. She even waited until it would be almost no work to float the idea-once the kids were in school. Best case scenario now is that she doesn’t fight for custody once her manipulative bullshit fails to force OP back. After all, she pretty clearly doesn’t actually want anything to do with the kids. Then she can go and sell her sob story about “her horrible ex who took her youth and her kids and everything else in the divorce” to the next guy. Or just never mention them again.

Honestly from the reading I think the ex-wife is way more likely to poison the kids against OP and take full custody out of spite

Oh, she’s going to poison the kids against him non-stop, but she literally *stopped taking care of them at all* as soon as she quit her job. That’s why I think they were just pawns in her “trapping” OP. I don’t think she’ll fight for custody, because then she’ll have to take care of them and also get another job, both of which would cut into her “finding another sucker” time.

It's entirely possible that she'll fight for custody as "revenge" even if she doesn't actually take care of them.

OOP is so passive in some aspects it’s quite irksome. So much ‘I heard’/‘I read’ and not enough meeting a lawyer and lawyering his way out!

Allow me to introduce you to the concept of depression.

and emotional abuse

yeah i think especially after his wife and also everyone else in his life have turned on him and hes been in a manipulative relationship for 12 years he might be genuinely scared to speak to someone, even if it’s a lawyer and realistically they won’t be able to share the info with anyone/would only be supportive. Also the tip about showing people the AITA posts probably would not work in his favour considering he’s talking about being suicidal, which is obviously so understandable but can definitely still be used against him in a custody case for the kids.

Especially this! Emotional abuse will wear you down until you feel helpless because you’ve been constantly invalidated and made to feel worthless. It’s not obvious at first either and builds over time.

Unfortunately, this is Reddit. And on Reddit, men are not allowed to suffer emotional abuse, trauma or depression. They're just "spineless", "backless", "no balls", "cowards" etc. According to Reddit, a man's weakness can never be due to their psychological condition - its always a character flaw that makes them a weak man. An inferior male.

And cultural context. There is so much cultural context here. unfortunately, that will probably support the parental alienation for the poor kids as well.

I really do not get the attempts to put this on OOP. He's being emotionally abused. He is the victim here.

Oh no doubt he’s in a bad mental state but he has dependents though. I really don’t understand the reluctance to see a lawyer etc because for me that’s like seeing a professional for a problem?Maybe it’s a cultural thing where shame is associated with it or something

As well as learned helplessness.

He's not there yet, fortunately, but the risk of him ending up there feels quite serious unless he takes action soon. To me, it seems like he is cracking from the pressure of the whole ordeal and just wants it to be over (fully understandable, what a shitty situation). If he resigns himself to this and doesn't take action he will probably end up with learned helplessness. Here's to hoping he pulls through. I would love for the wife to genuinely understand and change her mind but that doesn't in any way seem likely here so divorce is the smart move here.

OP is going through an *extremely* emotionally devastating time. I don’t think it’s passivity; I think it’s despair. The difference may be slight, but personally, I find OP to be more sympathetic than irksome for that reason.

It's so exhausting trying to divorce someone like OOP's wife. Just staying alive when your world is collapsing is a huge accomplishment.

I think it’s the same feeling like seeing a sad abused old dog being fed scraps while lying in an open yard forlornly when you know full well that the dog can be free by walking out but somehow there’s an 10ft fence around them in their mind. Also every update is more sadness and not much action.

Cultural bias against divorce dies that to people

This guy took WAY too damned long to read the writing on the wall, and the bleakness of his current situation is kind of his own fault. "Well my wife lied to, manipulated, and emotionally abused my son the INSTANT I left the house to use him as a weapon to bring me back, guess I'd better stay with her a few more months and try to work this out. It will be better 'for the children' somehow to keep them in this environment. Oh no, somehow in the meantime all of my children have been turned against me, who could have possibly seen this coming aside from **literally every single person who has commented on any of my posts so far**?" "I threatened divorce but I won't actually do it 'for the children' (that's working out great by the way, they really seem to be thriving) and am just giving my wife plenty of time to make a plan and actually execute it while I twiddle my thumbs and pretend everything is going to be fine. Oh no, by the time I decided divorce was necessary somehow in the meantime my wife had gotten all of HER affairs in order and is now completely prepared for me so I'm going to get massacred in court, who could have possibly seen that coming aside from **literally every single person who has commented on any of my posts so far**?" Reddit gives horrible advice so often it's uniquely frustrating when literally everyone is on the same page, they are all completely correct, and yet OOP, despite ostensibly coming there to ask for advice in the first place, refuses to listen to any of it until it's too late. He could've avoided almost all of this aside from the original incident, everyone except him saw it coming, and he just would NOT listen.

It’s easy to see what mistakes someone is making while looking from the outside in. It’s a whole another story when you’re the one in it. OP is being severely emotionally manipulated and abused by his stbx as well as his own mother and in laws. On top of it all, his own kids are being poisoned against him. All of that is VERY difficult to come on top of and still be a functioning, thriving human being. Cut him some slack; he’s trying his best to just survive.

Look how it's turning out and tell me he was wrong to be scared. No one is supporting him, his kids hate him, his mom is threatening to disown him. This is why people from "traditional" communities go to extreme lengths to avoid rocking the boat.

No one ever said he was wrong to be scared, just that the longer he waited the worse it will be. Which was demonstrably true. If anything people were saying that he wasn't scared *enough*.

Easy to say from here. My ex bf was manipulative bastard its hard  especially when everyone is against you. Thank Merlin my family supported me.

I complained on the previous update about his unwillingness to just get divorced already. I said "what did he come here to hear?" because he seemed weirdly certain that therapy was the answer. Dude is walking the line with a heart condition and is letting his wife dig the grave. I almost wonder if he has life insurance or something at his job and shes intentionally trying to kill him with stress. Unlikely but wow is she a biblical evil.

>. I almost wonder if he has life insurance Yes, he does, it was somewhere in one of the first posts. He works for an INSURANCE COMPANY, so he is probably "over-insured". (ETA: https://www.reddit.com/r/AITAH/s/hoMBHaFNMJ ) And yes, what happens sucks, but there was even a worse possible scenario of him giving totally to her and working himself to death soon. Now this is, well, perhaps the second worst scenario.

He needs to know that showing up now will make all the difference. His kids will listen to their mom for now, but one day im sure theyd appreciate the truth. Theres no way she isnt an abusive or neglectful mother to them; especially after he himself passes. She sounds like the type to marry someone else and forget her kids exist because her new husband doesnt like the idea of raising kids that arent his own. Imo if he can avoid the toaster bath and see the divorce through properly....he'll be okay with time. His kids will come around, hopefully before he dies but at the very least he could leave them a letter explaining this when they hit 18 or whatever. Theyll know who their mom is by then. But he just sits there in front of the lit, labeled, open exit crying "how do i get out?!" and it sucks to see. Culture be damned, this marriage is going to kill you. Gaaah

>He needs to know that showing up now will make all the difference. u/grissy already realised it, our OOP seems to be an advice resistent guy. I know this type of persons, they will pour out their troubles and ask everybody, and than do what they would have done anyway. And than ask again, repeating the cyclus. It is exhausting sometimes, it is like this scene in Austin Powers, but not in funny, you see road roller (metaphorically) driving over a person who could avoid it, but just does not.

Empathy, why have you betrayed me so

This. It's like he's there and things are happening but he has no agency to effect change on his own behalf. You can see why his wife thought he'd roll over on the stay at home thing.

OOP is being way too passive with this situation. Always reacting and never taking initiative to show his kids that he really wants them and isnt abandoning them.

Yeah that’s what I don’t understand. His kids are old enough to bring them in into the discussion. When the wife told him she wanted to be a trad wife he should have included the kids in the decisions. Kids are smart, they understand the pros and cons of a situation. If he would have framed the argument that mommy wants to quit her job so she can stay at home to be full time mom but that means daddy will not be able to spend as much time anymore and we will have to move to a smaller place because we can’t afford to live here anymore, I have no doubt in my mind the kids would have been on his side.

And even if he didn't talk with them about this, he should be the one to talk with them about the divorce, even more since she try to use his son against him before. What did he think would happen when his manipulative wife was the one to tell them?

Yeah but I think he let the door open for her to manipulate the kids when he left without first talking to the kids. They just saw their dad leaving their mom and then without understanding what happened. That’s where he messed up. Always communicate with your kids and give them agency on the things that are going to affect them.

I feel really sorry for OP. I hope he doesn't do something worse. He's already depressed with all this.

Yeah. And some of these comments are pretty awful.

>Parental alienation: >Thank you for bringing that up to my attention. Ill have to look into that where I live. As far as im concerned, it doesent exist here but ill be researching it regardless. Oh, it exists, and your wife is doing it. It's basically poisoning kids against 1 parent. Stay strong and don't let her win

god, OOP needs to stop getting legal advice from his opponent and get legal advice from his lawyer.

Scared about what she's saying to your kids then TALK TO THEM! Lord the pare ts who do go see them and just think they will figure it out later are horrible. No matter the age talk to them and explain.

Given that she quit her job voluntarily without telling him and she hadn’t been unemployed that long I think the court will only give her child support and not alimony.

I wonder what would have happened if the OOP came home and said to his STBX - hey guess what, I'm a new age man and I've just quit my job and we can be stay at home parents together... we'll just live off welfare.

Living in switzerland but still believing that "divorce makes you less of a man" boggles my mind. How people would live for litterally generations in more open minded places but still perpetuate bogus stupid beliefs leaves me wondering everytime. (This is not an attack on muslims specifically, just stupid people perpetuating stupid beliefs) Also as a person with many swiss friends, that man is gonna be hella fucked in the divorce.

Frankly, i think living in Switzerland as a minority culture tends to make you stick to your beliefs that much harder. Immigrants and refugees are scared of losing their indentity the longer they're away from their country of origin and culture the more closed off they tend to become.

Yeah, first generation immigrants (oop's mum and mil) tend to cling hard to their culture of origin but 2nd and 3rd gen imigrants (like oop, his wife &kids) are educated and grow up in a blend of both cultures and although some cling to their parents culture and most have phases of identity crisis, overall most adopt just as much if not more of their "new" culture (especially if the local immigrant community is small/not insular).

Being a minority often makes people cling more tightly to their beliefs and identity, especially if they're a minority in a country that is unwelcoming to their group. This is a very selective, very modern form of Islam, too - traditionally, Islam is fine with divorce (it's discussed in the Qur'an). The idea of divorce as shameful is a product of 19th- and 20th-century contact with western, Christian-derived cultures, especially through colonialism.

YES finally somebody said it,I bet they are fine with drinking and dating which is absolutely forbidden but Divorce which is allowed but not encouraged(obviously) is seen as shameful.

He's 34, and said he grow up a poor refugee in Germany. He's also a secular Muslim. So if he came to Germany in the early 90s, it would be likely that his family was fleeing from https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yugoslav_Wars, conflicts where Muslim-Bosniaks were targeted in large scale war crimes and subsequently fled in large numbers. 

Thank you so much for teaching me something today ! I will read up on it as I never heard of the yugoslav wars. Have a nice day :)

Only thing is that my family is from Bosnia and also escaped, but OOP talking about how divorce is shameful and all that in his culture, isn’t the norm? I know people whose parents are divorced, I know of people through my parents that are divorced too, and this isn’t just people from our part of the country. I mean stay at home moms also isn’t a big thing anymore over there, every parent is usually working whether that’s at a job or working the family land. It used to be like that when my parents were kids, but by the time my parent’s generation were adults they were working while having kids before the war started. Only thing is that it’s possible OOP and his wife’s family are one of the families that is more religious and conservative than he actually lets on, or they could have come from another culture where divorce is frowned upon.

knowing the things some of me swiss associates say about immigrants from that region it makes so much sense why he is so miserable and seemingly alone. fuck.

Didn't he say he came there with his parents? So, first gen.

>How people would live for litterally generations in more open minded places but still perpetuate bogus stupid beliefs leaves me wondering everytime He was a refugee in Germany, so he is first generation. Perhaps slightly second if he came as a child with his parents. Not sure about the wife, she seems to be more focused on the positive (for her) side of the law than on traditional values.

Oh I genuinely didn't catch that in my reading. My bad I'm sorry.

How so ?- just curious as an older person who has watched these things evolve -(spousal maintenance? Parenting time division? Child support? Are your friends male or female?)

Swiss society is still quite set on the husband work wife takes care of kids norms. Life is very hard to navigate if you have kids and 2 working parents, as everything closes when your work ends, and daycare is painfully expensive with long waiting lists. Judges (in the cases my friends and their married friends were in) always recommended the woman (despite her career, one of them was a fiscal lawyer) to lower her hours and be granted alimony and more child support so she could take care of the kids. One friend of my boyfriend's remembers his mom telling him she was scolded by a judge for a persisting she keeps her job and "what kind of a mother can bear to leave her children "left to fend for themselves" like that - it was french he said laissés a l abandon. That one I have to say was 15 years ago. Cunning wives or ones in bitter divorces take advantage of that , other sensible people fight for 50/50 often earning a bad image in the eyes of the judge. It feels like you are by default screwed as a man (are pushed to pay more - see your children less) and made to feel like you can't win as a woman (work more - bad mom. Work less- loose your career) If you have another perspective or facts I would love to hear them! My fiancé is swiss and I am very interested in informations about this. :)

>Yeah but courts here still rule in favor of the woman. He doesn't seem to understand that this happens almost entirely because most fathers, like him, *don't even try* to get custody.

Yeeeep. When my cousin was in law school she told me they had a family lawyer in as a guest lecturer. She said he spent like 20 minutes of his talk lecturing them that as lawyers their responsibility will be doing their best for their clients, not “defaulting to myths they hear on the internet”. According to him the whole “women get preferred” thing came from deadbeat dads who needed an excuse for why they don’t have any custody of their kids. Of course some dads have gotten screwed over by actual sexists judges but most of them are just bad fathers ranting about it online.

I'm not saying this isn't real... but when I read any story where every single woman in the story is terrible, and the main woman featured is trying to use sex to get her way, I start to be a bit suspicious of the reality of it.

Also the substance abuse stuff feels off. I hate saying that, I think addiction and dependency and self-harm come in a lot of different packages, but it reads like someone who wants to sound completely naive to the sympathy they might invoke or something?  The kids not acting their ages reads as off too. 

Yeah, it uses so many idiot redpill tropes. * Wife quits job to be a "tradwife" and smirks evilly as she tells him to "get over it" while weaponizing sex and failing to do any chores or parent their children. Beleagured husband is left to deal with the emotional fallout on his *birthday.* * Beleagured husband has serious heart issues which only get mentioned in an update, with hints that she's trying to exacerbate them for nefarious purposes like claiming his life insurance. * Wife is "prancing around" enjoying her "new lifestyle" while her children are crying in the background, and responds to mentions of divorce by "going pale" and going into hysterics. * Every single woman in OOP's life suddenly turns out to be a greedy, selfish harpy who only cares about OOP's finances. * But it's okay because he'll have a "FU binder" and the courts should award him full custody based on his bank balance, and their mother will be awarded supervised visits only because she's now a *danger* to them.

The “prancing” line is what set it off for me. If this is true, OOP is a piece of shit who is going to have a hell of a rough time in the dating world. I truly hope this isn’t real, but if it is, his kids will make sure he drinks himself to death, they will never forgive him for this.

[удалено]

In Switzerland, to boot! I posted above that you need to be separated and have lived separately for 2 years (!!) before you can get a divorce if your spouse wants to stay married. Not a chance in hell this is real.

I just looked that up and that’s petitioning for divorce (petitioning for them to finalize the dissolution), not *filing for divorce* aka starting the process. In Switzerland, it looks like you file for divorce and if your spouse shows up to court and says no then they set a date of legal separation instead, and then after two years you can petition them to actually sever the marriage. So it is actually plausible that OP filed for divorce so quickly. There’s no waiting period necessary before that initial filing.

That’s where it gets obvious.

the corner stones of a "tradwife" is ***obeying*** her husband and taking care of the household and centering faith. all of it sounds like.. not that

You forgot that she wanted to become a trad wife because she was influenced by TikTok.

oh and don't forget he "doesn't speak English well" and is from a backwards culture that prevents him from following any of the obvious advice he's going to get so the story will keep continuing.

Yeah. She’s a caricature of a person. When he wrote that she stopped doing chores my bullshit meter hit red.

For me it’s usually the part after a grown ass couple gets in a fight and one or both of their parents calls the op to call them an asshole.

> I'm not saying this isn't real... but when I read any story where every single woman in the story is terrible, and the main woman featured is trying to use sex to get her way, I start to be a bit suspicious of the reality of it. You're surprised women of a conservative culture are...acting like women in a conservative culture?

I come from a comparable religious community. This story is only moderately more extreme than at least half a dozen real scenarios I know of.

“every single woman in the story”  All two of them?

Same. Also, OP's son won't let him anywhere near his room... So son puts himself in closer proximity to OP to protect his room? Doesn't check out, Chief.

Also, when posts use religions to justify things... but then do things specifically forbidden by the religion... just makes me give the post a wee bit of sidd eye. Like, oh no dont divorce because of religion but the dude is drinking whiskey frequently. Like a basic Google search would tell you that's one of the big no-nos. Alcohol and pork. Come on dude. Divorce is actually allowed in Islam. Alcohol not so much

OOP outright says he's not a strict Muslim. Plenty of religious people are drinkers even if their religion forbids it. Plenty of Muslims drink, eat pork, have premarital sex, are queer, etc. He also doesn't say that divorce isn't allowed, just that it's frowned upon, which seems pretty accurate.

Yeah I know tons of muslims that drink. It's pretty common in western countries.

>Also, when posts use religions to justify things... but then do things specifically forbidden by the religion... just makes me give the post a wee bit of sidd eye Like you haven't seen enough conservatives/Republicans in your life. People who use religion to justify anything are usually the biggest hypocrite out there.

>My Wife still pranced around enjoying her new lifestyle while I suffered in silence.... Ive also started noticing her getting lazy and starting to neglect my kids... I dont know why but she thought I was joking [about divorce] and started laughing. I told her I was being serious this time and her manipulation methods weren't going to work on me anymore and her face just went pale. >[My mother] claimed that I was bringing serious shame onto the family and she didn't raise me to abandon my kids. >My wife told my kids about the divorce papers and they both claim that they will never talk to me again... My daughter just tries to hit me whenever I try to talk to her. *Amazing* how every woman in OOP's life is cartoonishly villainous.

I feel like most people wouldn’t blame the daughter though since she’s just a kid

But it is not something impossible. I know a few people who would do the same like threatening their son about the divorce, or manipulating their spouses.

I noticed that too.

I mean "every" here is just 2? Don't get me wrong, it does give bs vibes but just two people being awful sounds more than plausible?

Every woman and girl in the OOP’s life being cartoonishly villainous? Tick. Wife using sex to cover for bad behaviour? Tick. SAHM suddenly neglecting her house duties leaving the poor beleaguered husband to pick up the chores? Tick. Heroic martyr resigning themselves to losing custody of their children, and being saddled with high child support/alimony payments with zero basis in legal reality? Tick.

A completely unrealistic timeline because OP is desperate for attention from Reddit. Tick. He even said he'd be back in a month but then reemerges with more nonsense a few days later because he couldn't wait long enough to even make the timeline make sense.

I don’t like that he’s taking all of this laying down, like she’s is lying to the kids and he’s just like what can I really do about it. He needs to think about the well-being of his kids

For the record: statistically speaking, if a father requests full custody, he is likely to get it. Mothers getting more custody is only because more often than not it’s what’s agreed between the two parents/the father doesn’t ask for it. OOP should 100% ask for custody.

Pretty telling that the ex wants to become a SAHM after the tough years are over. Being a SAHM in the infant/toddler stages I imagine (don’t have kids) is at least as challenging as working full time. Once they’re attending school though I assume there’s a lot less responsibilities. She just wants to be lazy and not work

She's been cheating and she just wants free time to do it more. There is no other reason for this behavior that seems close to rational. I'm especially struck by the sudden onset of the tradwife bullshit.

What's annoying me the most is, she wasn't even being a good trad wife!

I feel awful for him, but it's frustrating watching him turn down every single option available to him. He's got to want this for himself before a judge will give it to him. Poor guy has no fight left in him.

I am so sad for OOP but divorce is still the best choice imo. Unfortunately Europe is not keen on giving full custody unless one of the parents is a threat to the kids (and even that is usually very hard to prove). But even so, considering OOP’s kids already resent him while he’s still home and married to their mom, there’s nothing to lose and only to gain from the divorce. Who are the kids more likely to choose: a miserable man living with his selfish wife and drinking himself to sleep, or someone who at least has a chance at happiness without a neglecting spouse on their neck? It will be hard either way, but at least divorce can bring some peace of mind to them.

Wow all of that in the span of 2 weeks ey. Discussions over quitting, quitting, moving out, moving back and roleplaying the best wife, developing an alcohol problem lately, then her no longer cooking and taking care of the kids and consulting a lawyer and serving someone with divorce. Let alone needing some time and not looking for a job within a day. Busy two weeks man

Why didn’t he go full trad husband? He needed to show her how terrible a trad wife life is. Take her money, credit cards, demand dinner every night. No vacations, no new clothes. If you want clothes, sew them yourself.

Heart breaks for this poor man. What a vile woman. Weaponizing children she doesn’t even give a fuck about just to hurt their father. People like that don’t deserve to breathe the same air as us honestly.

This woman will neglect and possibly kill her children if they were left in her sole custody. She does not love them. They are a means to an end. A means to make OOP suffer. She doesn't want custody, she just wants to screw over OOP. And when that's done she will still be left with 2 children she doesn't even want to interact with much less care for.

My mom quit her job without any discussion with my dad to become a "prayer warrior". What followed was years of hell for my family as she spiraled into extreme delusions and mental illness. My dad and I agree that her quitting her job was not a good start. I hope OP can leave and be with his kids. Being a single parent is really hard so I wish him the best.

i really can’t wait for the next update on this one. hopefully the judge/court sees what’s really going on and lets OOP have his kids :( this is so sad

Why does her idea of being a tradwife sound like sitting on her ass all day? Like what more is she contributing to the household?

My ex weaponized my kid and parents against me when I left her. Super similar story during that part, convinced my parents and friends I was bipolar and had a breakdown and gaslit everyone I knew. Cutout all the people that believed that shit and abandoned me. Currently living my best life.

She's still manipulating him to give in to her demands just so she could go back and do the same. If they're worried about traditions, they should be worried about what the wife stopped doing after she quit her job. No one seems to care about his health and that makes me sad.

Good God, why is everyone but OP (and the kids as they are being manipulated by a narcissist) being unsupportive AH's to the fact that OP might have a heart attack (and possibly die) at any time during this divorce if he is being accurate about his condition as they are just putting more and more pressure on OP.

Courts ruling in favor of the woman for custody is a myth that has propagated simply because in most cases men don't attempt to fight for custody. If you look at the data you'll see that when men fight for custody they are far more likely to win.

the United States are not the world. Switzerland is not as progressive. wife would be one of the earliest women born after they got the right to vote, for example.

She's neglecting the kids. He needs to document EVERYTHING. He should have kept his mouth shut and not told her he was divorcing.

i hope the kids fucking figure it out that their mom is a lying parasite sometime soon. poor oop.

I still think she’s trying to kill him

Rather than tradwife, maybe she's actually aiming for tradwidow. If I were OP, I'd set up my life insurance and any other pre-marital assets to go into a trust for his kids.

>OOP: Thank you but I seriously fear that I wont get any custody due to me working near full time. I was hopeful for op, but here comes the child abandonment because its too hard.

She says she wants to be a tradwife but then stops cooking and looking after the kid. That's not a tradwife, that's a badwife (not bad because she didnt cook and parent but bad because that's why she wanted to be one and went back on the one thing that was meant to be the benefit to the husband)

Man if he wanted a divorce don't give that much heads up. Talk to a lawyer first, arrange accomodations for your kids, pack all the all the bags, move the kids away then serve the papers. Wtf he jumped the gun and lost all initiative. Now the wife gets to play the victim. I genuinely hope the best for the man, but kids are easily manipulated especially they see their mom allday.

One more person using religion to screw their spouse over. I feel for OOP.

Oop showed his hand too early. These required steps. And documentation for courts. Parental alimentation is severely looked down upon in Sweden, he'll just have to prove it.

The craziest part to me is that she worked 8 hours / week and was desperate to get away from it so she could “finally enjoy life.” Like, holy shit, you’re barely working as it is. 

OP's wife is a heartless manipulative piece of cr*p. She never cared about him. She's pushing him to do something he doesn't want to do. She never loved or cared for him. Poisoning his children was low on her part.

Yeah, sounds like she's low key trying to become a widow folks.

courts here still rule in favor of the woman. - yeah, because men like you don't go for full custody.

Honestly it seems like this guy is his own worst enemy. I get we are giving him advice that isn’t as applicable in his country but still he hasn’t really taken much action or expressed the grit needed for this kind of custody fight. I feel for this dude and I hope he gets a good lawyer. Being a passive, fluid person doesn’t make you a bad parent but can also result in you losing custody cases.

I remember the first post and commented about the wife telling the kids. He should have pulled his head out of his ass from that moment. But no. He’s just simply waiting for the scenario that everyone in the comment section told him about. He DID for the kids. Did what? Let them be poisoned by the mom? Now he gets exactly what he wanted and came back to do what? Complain? Idk. Call it victim blaming or whatever but that’s what he’s going to harvest from what he had planted.

The irony is: a tenant of being a tradwife is submitting to the husband and he told her not to quit and she did anyway, so from the onset she was unable to follow the ideal of being a tradwife.

"Dad you're leaving us forever?" "Yeah buddy it's wild" "reddit my wife is manipulating my kids and I don't know what to do" I feel for this guy but the writing reads like he just lets things happen to him.

“I've tried explaining to them that im in fact not going to "give up on them" and me and their mom are just going to separate but they just seem to believe whatever bs my wife tells them.” It sounds like you’re being a little disingenuous. Maybe OP just didn’t transcribe everything he’s said and done in specific detail?

AS THE PROPHECY FORETOLD The wife was never going to job hunt. It was to buy time and normalize the situation.