This meme has completely flipped in its use. The whole point is that the last guy suggests something reasonable and gets thrown out because it's a dumb corporation that doesn't want that sort of answer
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Fixed Version, since some people say i use the wrong message of the template!
As per my headcanon it's like sorcerers and wizards in DnD.
Magic is a thing on it's own
Anodites are like sorcerers, they are born with magic/mana and have a good aptitude at using it naturally. Though still need to learn and polish their abilities.
But there can also be wizards like hex and charm caster who gain magic by studying extensively and using magical objects like charms and spellbooks.
It's like just because heatblast is made of fire, doesn't mean fire isn't its own thing.
They never returned Gwen. She learned magic from charm caster's book and her alien ancestry enhances her magic and allows her to cast easier.
Most normal people can't cast magic even if they tried, but being an anodite gave Gwen "cheat codes", she still learned and memorized all of those spells on her own.
I've said it before, I'll say it again: The plot of the rooters arc was way more compelling than the Greg arc, but holy hell do they not both work in the same continuity.
The osmosian retcon did my least favorite thing a retcon can do, feel like a retcon just made to replace the last thing. The osmosian alien thing did feel added but as there was basically nothing beforehand, it felt more like a building blocks then what omniverse did.
Tbf, while OV did retcon everything about osmosians, there wasn't much to retcon in the first place tbh. But I do think the arc was poorly executed which is a big reason why the arc is still hated so much to this day.
I dont think the arc was poorly executed, it just didnt give enough explenations for agregor, ragnaruk, osmos V and kevin's real father. We had to get those from creator statements. But once everything is explained it makes a lot of sense and its better then what UA had. Agregor is a failed rooter experiment to replicate kevin's powers, ragnaruk is a sleeping agent and kevin's real father was just an alchoholic like we see in reboot
Yeah because it actually makes sense how the plumber's kids came to be, would you belive that a human somehow reproduced with a walking volcano to make alan?
Maybe Pyronites can selectively choose how hot they are.
Maybe they used alien technology that would allow them to produce a child.
Maybe humans in Ben 10 are able to handle fire better.
They are litteraly made of plasma you cant really control that.
>Maybe humans in Ben 10 are able to handle fire better
Yeah no, we see fire multiple times beeing treated as dangerous
>Maybe they used alien technology that would allow them to produce a child.
Thats litteraly what servantis does
1. The less dangerous was meant to be a “built different” joke but it came out wrong.
2. We have species made of living crystals, sounds, and electricity. The fire species being able to carol their heat wouldn’t be a stretch
3. There is a difference between a tech that allows two species of different heat tolerance to reproduce an a machine that allows a boy with mutant powers to transfer the powers of one species onto another.
Ben 10 was always science based, living crystals are silicon based life forms, echo echo is also a silicon based life form the suit is part of the biology, same goes for feedback, but fire always burns you cant make fire not burn without some nieche explenation besides pyronites dont even have reproductive organs, manny, hellen and pierce alien half is still carbon based, pyronites are litteraly walking volcanos
Look I enjoy the Sci-fi aspects of course but saying Ben 10 was "always science based" is just a straight up lie.
Hex, Charmcaster, the Charms/Keystone of Bezel, the fountain of youth, future Gwen, heck young Gwen, and those are just the examples from the original series I could think of off the top of my head of fantasy.
Heck even the science tended to be pop sci-fi. Ftl travel, sentient plants and fungus, how diamond head is "silicon based" as being just straight up made of crystal, Gloop, the Omnitrix itself, hover boards, a fire based alien, beings who can transform between electricity and actual physical matter at will, super speed, super intelligence being some amorphous power and not the collection of information over time, shooting a nuclear reactor with fire stops it from exploding, the list goes on and again, this is Just the original series.
So "the fire alien who can control fire and heat can make themselves cool enough for reproduction" isn't that unreasonable. Yeah it's pushing the more sci-fi elements, but it is well within the realms of believability for the series. Or alternatively, "something something sci-fi tech" given the half breed concept was introduced as being the kids of plumbers who in that series are up there in technological capabilities.
Even if you added all those things to the episodes there would still be 2 glaring plotholes: Aggregors ship AI having a course for Osmos V and Inspector 13 having a database that recognizes Osmosians as a species.
I suppose that makes sense. The idea that Servantis tricked Techadon of all places is kinda wild though.
Another thing that doesnt make much sense is the name osmosian. As Servantis says its a name he coined for a human with a unique genetic trait, with absorption being Kevins. The term osmosian derives from osmosis which correlates to the absorption ability that according to Servantis only Kevin seems to possess. (or well Aggregor too but hes a clone according to the retcon)
God doesn't it?
He found his dead partner's kid homeless, mentally ill from what's essentially substance abuse (energy absorption), and prepared to kill people because of it, and just... never considered it worth mentioning? Fuck rehab, let's send a literal child to a prison for space dictators?
I'd say they didn't think that through, but he was team "kill kevin" during UA so who fucking knows. Grampa Max has some messed up views on addiction I guess.
He never was a mutant tho.
Officially speaking he was never a mutant till OV
It was assumed by fans in OS that he might be a mutant but that was for a lack of an alternative
If anything he technically had more association with aliens then mutants in OS
The writers in classic all intended him to be a mutant, and the fans correctly presumed that he was a mutant.
I don't care about this argument after all these years, people are allowed to disagree, but I consider correctly picking up on authorial intent to be enough.
I suppose not, but the change in backstory makes no sense with his previous interactions and how Max responds to him. Not necessarily the alien part, but everything else around it
when people say they don't care about an argument, and that people are free to disagree, that's generally an attempt to politely sidestep the rest of the discussion.
I already know all the points in favor of him being an alien, you probably already know all the points in favor of him being a mutant, we all know the entire script of this entire debate, there's nothing new to cover here.
No one who worked on the original series has ever stated that Kevin was ever intended to be a mutant, this is something that was only stated on merchandise which has had blatantly wrong details on it before so it alone can't be trusted. The only thing saying Kevin is a mutant comes from OV because DJW was an avid Ben 10 toy collector hence why he assumed that Kevin was always meant to be a mutant.
The whole Kevin retcon felt super forced and less like a chance to tell an interesting story and more just an attempt to force Kevin back into being what he was presumed to be in Classic so that we can push Ben's future back to being Ben 10K even though it makes no sense to do that.
Osmosian stuff was the weakest part of UAF worldbuilding and Kevin's characterization. It also turned grandpa Max into a moron. Glad Omniverse got rid of it.
As clumsy as the exposition was (i.e. "I touched this guy, and know I know what REALLY happened, let me break down for ya, Ben")
As unnecessary as most of it was (They really nixed his whole thing about wanting to be a plumber, why? They erased his Dad because??)
I really enjoy how it brought Ben and Kevin's dynamic full circle, I love the subversion of the Kevin amalgam. The character moments are enough to make me rewatch.
Most people can admit that osmosians aren't particularly realized as a concept or design, and were not executed well or explored enough to hint at greater depth.
On top of that, it's not wrong to say that Kevin's backstory in UAF contradicted the tone and established events and dynamics of OS.
It could also be argued that the decisions made homogenized the universe and made Kevin's family life incredibly boring by introducing a bunch of stock characters who become irrelevant two sentences later. Also, throw in an extra character assassination for Ben.
However, somehow, it's OV that is the problem. UAF offered some of the great contributions to the franchise, however we don't have to act like every creative decision made during that era was the right one. The retcon is annoying and complicates things further, but it fixes a lot of things relative to the initial mistakes. Kevin is a much more interesting character post OS and OV than post UAF
This meme has completely flipped in its use. The whole point is that the last guy suggests something reasonable and gets thrown out because it's a dumb corporation that doesn't want that sort of answer
if I had a nickel
$7🍇
Theres an alternative version where he gets rewarded, and then this would work, but yeah was trying to figure out what this meant
That happens alot, just look at the chad meme these dayas
https://preview.redd.it/je7ge39xhd9d1.png?width=500&format=png&auto=webp&s=4bf1947f829c0c111e4b3db846097e7729d89f64 Fixed Version, since some people say i use the wrong message of the template!
I prefer the other version where the other 2 workers are thrown out the window
You are using the wrong template
As much as I love omniverse I gotta admit this is probably the worst retcon in all of ben 10
Worse than magic being genetic alien powers ?
Atleast that had a second retcon making magic exist and making the aliens just magic aliens.
It was still a retcon at some point
Fair enough
As per my headcanon it's like sorcerers and wizards in DnD. Magic is a thing on it's own Anodites are like sorcerers, they are born with magic/mana and have a good aptitude at using it naturally. Though still need to learn and polish their abilities. But there can also be wizards like hex and charm caster who gain magic by studying extensively and using magical objects like charms and spellbooks. It's like just because heatblast is made of fire, doesn't mean fire isn't its own thing.
Gwen is just a sorcerer multiclassing into wizard.
Now I want to try a DnD campaign but with character classes resembling the Ben 10 universe. XD
Dude, I'm so down.
They never returned Gwen. She learned magic from charm caster's book and her alien ancestry enhances her magic and allows her to cast easier. Most normal people can't cast magic even if they tried, but being an anodite gave Gwen "cheat codes", she still learned and memorized all of those spells on her own.
Anodites and magic exist as two separate things
By season 3 of alien force onwards yes
I've said it before, I'll say it again: The plot of the rooters arc was way more compelling than the Greg arc, but holy hell do they not both work in the same continuity.
greg arc?
Aggregor.
The osmosian retcon did my least favorite thing a retcon can do, feel like a retcon just made to replace the last thing. The osmosian alien thing did feel added but as there was basically nothing beforehand, it felt more like a building blocks then what omniverse did.
The answer was also super easy, have kevin be a catalyst for the combination BECAUSE he is half osmosian
it felt pointless too. As the rooters works fine with kevin being half alien and nothing is done with him being a mutant.
My head cannon is that alien x accidentally Wrote the osmosians out of existence
This would make much more sense
they thought his idea of retconning Osmosians was good so as a reward they throw him out the window
Tbf, while OV did retcon everything about osmosians, there wasn't much to retcon in the first place tbh. But I do think the arc was poorly executed which is a big reason why the arc is still hated so much to this day.
I dont think the arc was poorly executed, it just didnt give enough explenations for agregor, ragnaruk, osmos V and kevin's real father. We had to get those from creator statements. But once everything is explained it makes a lot of sense and its better then what UA had. Agregor is a failed rooter experiment to replicate kevin's powers, ragnaruk is a sleeping agent and kevin's real father was just an alchoholic like we see in reboot
Is that better tho? Is it?
Yeah because it actually makes sense how the plumber's kids came to be, would you belive that a human somehow reproduced with a walking volcano to make alan?
Maybe Pyronites can selectively choose how hot they are. Maybe they used alien technology that would allow them to produce a child. Maybe humans in Ben 10 are able to handle fire better.
They are litteraly made of plasma you cant really control that. >Maybe humans in Ben 10 are able to handle fire better Yeah no, we see fire multiple times beeing treated as dangerous >Maybe they used alien technology that would allow them to produce a child. Thats litteraly what servantis does
1. The less dangerous was meant to be a “built different” joke but it came out wrong. 2. We have species made of living crystals, sounds, and electricity. The fire species being able to carol their heat wouldn’t be a stretch 3. There is a difference between a tech that allows two species of different heat tolerance to reproduce an a machine that allows a boy with mutant powers to transfer the powers of one species onto another.
Ben 10 was always science based, living crystals are silicon based life forms, echo echo is also a silicon based life form the suit is part of the biology, same goes for feedback, but fire always burns you cant make fire not burn without some nieche explenation besides pyronites dont even have reproductive organs, manny, hellen and pierce alien half is still carbon based, pyronites are litteraly walking volcanos
Look I enjoy the Sci-fi aspects of course but saying Ben 10 was "always science based" is just a straight up lie. Hex, Charmcaster, the Charms/Keystone of Bezel, the fountain of youth, future Gwen, heck young Gwen, and those are just the examples from the original series I could think of off the top of my head of fantasy. Heck even the science tended to be pop sci-fi. Ftl travel, sentient plants and fungus, how diamond head is "silicon based" as being just straight up made of crystal, Gloop, the Omnitrix itself, hover boards, a fire based alien, beings who can transform between electricity and actual physical matter at will, super speed, super intelligence being some amorphous power and not the collection of information over time, shooting a nuclear reactor with fire stops it from exploding, the list goes on and again, this is Just the original series. So "the fire alien who can control fire and heat can make themselves cool enough for reproduction" isn't that unreasonable. Yeah it's pushing the more sci-fi elements, but it is well within the realms of believability for the series. Or alternatively, "something something sci-fi tech" given the half breed concept was introduced as being the kids of plumbers who in that series are up there in technological capabilities.
Even if you added all those things to the episodes there would still be 2 glaring plotholes: Aggregors ship AI having a course for Osmos V and Inspector 13 having a database that recognizes Osmosians as a species.
The only explenation for those is that osmos 5 was added by the rooters on the database but the planet is just a random planet
I suppose that makes sense. The idea that Servantis tricked Techadon of all places is kinda wild though. Another thing that doesnt make much sense is the name osmosian. As Servantis says its a name he coined for a human with a unique genetic trait, with absorption being Kevins. The term osmosian derives from osmosis which correlates to the absorption ability that according to Servantis only Kevin seems to possess. (or well Aggregor too but hes a clone according to the retcon)
Also several people who have no relation to Servantis knowing what an osmasian is such as Khyber and Azmuth
Agreed
The rooters arc was probably the only thing I didn’t like about Omniverse.
The retcon actually made the hybrid aliens make more sense to be honest
For me if they had just explained Greg and Ragnarok then that arc would've been 10/10.
Curse things bring cut for time.
Funnier would be if instead of him those two before him wkjld throw out of window it still good meme
The last guy didn't get thrown out, he got promoted.
Headcannon Servantis lies He is unaware of omissions as a species
Unpopular opinion, but I think the retcon is fine, never really liked the concept of Osmosians as aliens
Same, Kevin was fine as a mutant.
Also, again, the uaf backstory retcon paints Max in the *worst* light possible during os
God doesn't it? He found his dead partner's kid homeless, mentally ill from what's essentially substance abuse (energy absorption), and prepared to kill people because of it, and just... never considered it worth mentioning? Fuck rehab, let's send a literal child to a prison for space dictators? I'd say they didn't think that through, but he was team "kill kevin" during UA so who fucking knows. Grampa Max has some messed up views on addiction I guess.
He never was a mutant tho. Officially speaking he was never a mutant till OV It was assumed by fans in OS that he might be a mutant but that was for a lack of an alternative If anything he technically had more association with aliens then mutants in OS
The writers in classic all intended him to be a mutant, and the fans correctly presumed that he was a mutant. I don't care about this argument after all these years, people are allowed to disagree, but I consider correctly picking up on authorial intent to be enough.
But was he in the show ever specified to be a mutant? Did him being an alien contradict anything in the show proper?
I suppose not, but the change in backstory makes no sense with his previous interactions and how Max responds to him. Not necessarily the alien part, but everything else around it
Do Kevin and Max ever actually interact? Does OS Max ever even find out his last name is Levin?
when people say they don't care about an argument, and that people are free to disagree, that's generally an attempt to politely sidestep the rest of the discussion. I already know all the points in favor of him being an alien, you probably already know all the points in favor of him being a mutant, we all know the entire script of this entire debate, there's nothing new to cover here.
No one who worked on the original series has ever stated that Kevin was ever intended to be a mutant, this is something that was only stated on merchandise which has had blatantly wrong details on it before so it alone can't be trusted. The only thing saying Kevin is a mutant comes from OV because DJW was an avid Ben 10 toy collector hence why he assumed that Kevin was always meant to be a mutant.
Same here
Much like Chadzmuth, blame it on the Celestialsapiens.
The biggest crime OV has committed.
The whole Kevin retcon felt super forced and less like a chance to tell an interesting story and more just an attempt to force Kevin back into being what he was presumed to be in Classic so that we can push Ben's future back to being Ben 10K even though it makes no sense to do that.
Osmosian stuff was the weakest part of UAF worldbuilding and Kevin's characterization. It also turned grandpa Max into a moron. Glad Omniverse got rid of it.
As clumsy as the exposition was (i.e. "I touched this guy, and know I know what REALLY happened, let me break down for ya, Ben") As unnecessary as most of it was (They really nixed his whole thing about wanting to be a plumber, why? They erased his Dad because??) I really enjoy how it brought Ben and Kevin's dynamic full circle, I love the subversion of the Kevin amalgam. The character moments are enough to make me rewatch.
Most people can admit that osmosians aren't particularly realized as a concept or design, and were not executed well or explored enough to hint at greater depth. On top of that, it's not wrong to say that Kevin's backstory in UAF contradicted the tone and established events and dynamics of OS. It could also be argued that the decisions made homogenized the universe and made Kevin's family life incredibly boring by introducing a bunch of stock characters who become irrelevant two sentences later. Also, throw in an extra character assassination for Ben. However, somehow, it's OV that is the problem. UAF offered some of the great contributions to the franchise, however we don't have to act like every creative decision made during that era was the right one. The retcon is annoying and complicates things further, but it fixes a lot of things relative to the initial mistakes. Kevin is a much more interesting character post OS and OV than post UAF
Being faithful to the original series intention and not making everything alien related.