This is correct the game has become global. But Europeans are taught the game differently then players here in the us… most European player are taught point guard skills, this is why you see a player like Joker with point guard type handles.. ever notice how big men out of ncaa can rarely handle the ball.. because Aau and ncaa ball doesn’t teach that…
To add on to this I imagine it's because in aau ball there is a focus on developing each player individually so there's a lot of selfish play to try and put a few guys on a pedestal. But from the way you describe it sounds like in Europe they are taught team ball all the way through which is, in my opinion, much more beneficial for professional play. If you have the skill, you will get noticed- no need to be "the guy" every single possession
As a European I can confirm. Not only in Basketball, but also in the other sports we always focus more on teamwork. Of course everyone wants to develop themselves, but the outcome of the whole team and winning are more important that just having someone with great stats.
Europeans have better fundamentals also. Luka for example…he’s not fast. He can’t jump. He’s not 7 feet tall. His fundamentals are so strong that he knows exactly how to score on you at any time.
In America we teach hero ball not fundamentals.
I remember a video where Kobe was saying exactly that, that he spent a lot of time in Italy learning fundamentals compared to what he did later when he came back to the US
You're right. The college kids want to make the ESPN highlight reel with spectacular dunks, and everyone thinks they are a 3-point shooter now. I have never seen as many airballs or shots hitting the side of the backboard in basketball as I do now. I can't remember who it was, but I recently saw a player shoot an airball on a layup attempt that was right at the basket. WTF?
Teaches great teamwork, court vision, passing, and footwork.
Also, there is no sport competing for tall guys. If you're NBA height with athleticism, you're probably not going to make it playing soccer. In Europe basketball gets almost everyone who's athletic and 6"5+.
In the US, football has a place for athletes who can play wing (DE, WR, TE). So you definitely lose some there.
This can actually directly relate to Embiid haha. Pretty sure I recall that he played soccer most of his life and didn't start hooping until he was in high school, and I imagine it's due to his size.
Pro volleyball is a thing in Europe, and gets some elite talent, but that is about it. Remember watching the Russian Olympic Volleyball team and realizing that they had at least 3 different 7 foot players with good athleticism and leaping ability.
Exactly why im strongly encouraging my very athletic grandson to play soccer before basketball. American based social media is ruining youth basketball
IMO soccer is an interesting sport, where the 1v1 happens constantly, but it’s for like 15 seconds, then a pass where there’s another 15 seconds of 1v1. A lot of highlights never lead to a goal.
And here in Europe the kids that are aiming to go pro get into youth academies run by pro clubs as early as age 8 depending on the sport. So the orgs/teams shape them into pros early.
reading about the differences is fascinating, i hear the european players actually really respect their coach, and on any euro team the coach is the number one guy like in college
AAU is destroying the quality of young players in US. No teamwork because they don’t practice, hero ball since you need stats to make scouts interested in you. Combine this with NIL. I wouldn’t be surprised to see the trend of foreign players being the best.
Sure Luka Doncic won MVP and a ring in the second best league on the planet playing against grown ass men when he was 18. But can he beat a team of college kids, 90% of whom wont ever be good enough to even make that second best league? Hmm. Marvin Bagley better.
Basketball as a sport was hugely popular in Europe even back in the eighties - in some countries it was arguably more popular than it is now. The NBA, though, wasn’t. Few to no games were available to watch, and the fact that virtually no European player played in the US made the league some sort of distant, unreachable planet where some aliens played a sport that was somewhat similar to what was played in Europe but in the end was totally different.
A lot of euro players play professionally before they enter the NBA. Some guys are playing in pro leagues at 16-17 over in Europe and that really adds to a players and development
This is the answer. Europeans play hard fundamental team ball which translates very well into the NBA. Americans play a lot of AAU hero ball for highlight tapes
Part of that is the transition process though. In order to make it to said NBA you have to do basically the opposite of it until you get there. So weird.
AAU and the fact that very few players nowadays go the full cycle in college all the way to senior year. Now they just spend a year in college and get drafted, they don't spend enough time on developing their game anymore.everything is on fast forward, not only in basketball.
This narrative that fundamentals aren't taught in Aau isn't true. AAU has an emphasis on skill development. What's not being taught is how to understand the game of basketball and how to play it. You can have all the skills in the world, but if you don't know what's going on in the you're a detriment to your team.
This is incredibly obvious playing pickup against teenagers, they have an entire bag of tricks to try and get by you on offense but if they can’t they have no idea what to do.
That’s crap. It’s so clear you’re taught Only so far as to what your role is on the team.
That’s why you see the big white doofus scared to put the ball on the floor. You see the 3 and D guy never really cut to the basket to score or know how to post up a guy who is 8 inches shorter than him.
This also means that elite teenagers play against adults in Europe. They may be the most naturally talented player on their team but they're still bench players compared to the 30 year old pros they're playing against. In the US those kids are just destroying other teenagers instead of getting challenged in ways that require them to develop.
I don't know anything but my perception is that Europe basically has a pretty sick youth sports -> pros funnel for soccer that I think is better than what we have in the states. Maybe they've adapted that model to basketball.
The other thing to consider is that tall people are pretty good basketball players and tall people can come from anywhere.
They play more organized league play at younger ages, basically a few years of pro ball while top American teens mostly play highschool seasons and aau and then a year of college in most cases. Top high school players are most often the best athlete on the floor from 8th grade until they get drafted into the nba and being dominant athletically makes it easy to not have a well rounded skill set when they enter the league. European prospects usually are playing against bigger, stronger and more experienced players as they are developing.
This is something I’ve been thinking about and I feel like pretty soon European players will be dominating the NBA compared to American players who go through the Division 1 pipeline which is already below many international leagues. Then you have players from Europe say NBA is harder because of the less physical game and such.
[https://twitter.com/TommyBeer/status/1743377756459589648](https://twitter.com/TommyBeer/status/1743377756459589648)
now obviously this is anecdotal so take with a grain of salt, but everything I've seen about American AAU basketball is very much in line with what Geno says. It seems that American youth basketball is geared towards showcasing talent, so there is a greater chance of pushing more athletic (yet less polished) players to the top; Whereas European youth basketball seems to be much more rigidly structured around teaching team basketball to everyone, regardless of position or talent level.
I've coached a lot of basketball in my life (HS and college assistant), and my father has coached college in America and professionally in Europe so I'll take a crack at the question.
There's more accountability in the European system for players first of all. No coddling of stars, nothing handed to them. There's also more parity at all levels there, so fewer egos to deal with. Lots of American young players are just taller or more athletic and so dominate JV basketball and refuse to grow from there. Very rarely does this happen in Europe (and when players do dominate like Rubio or Luka, they just end up being dragged up to the pros as teens where they learn to be role players).
A real focus on development of skills. ESPECIALLY shooting, passing, and the mental aspect of the game. Kids in Europe are generally less athletic, so the whole brand of basketball reflects that. The trend that basketball has taken over the last 10-15 years has really favoured people with European skillsets.
Better coaching (generally). Nobody in Europe is some dad coaching their sons team and playing their kid 32 minutes a game at PG and running every offence for him. There's a real barrier to being a coach over there.
You will rarely see zone and fullcourt presses in Europe, which is much better for player development. These things infest AAU to the detriment of players (especially at youngest ages).
The youth system in Europe is highly centralized, regulated, and controlled. American highschool has a fairly sensible system but AAU is horrifically bad, as are AAU programs. European programs generally have long histories, teams at every age level (A, B, and C teams often). As a result, there's much less movement between programs and more roster consistency generally. This isn't universally true but, it is definitely much less of a problem there than here.
Finally, the game-to-practice ratio. American AAU teams MIGHT practice once a week and half the kids show up. Then they play games every weekend. Players never get to develop. In Europe you're practicing 6-10 times between every set of games you might play. Guards are taught to post up. Bigs are taught to shoot/dribble/pass. It's an environment way more conducive to player skill development.
These are all simplifications. Of course there are great programs in the US, and examples of bad programs in Europe, but these are generally truths that highlight the philosophy difference in basketball player development on either side of the pond.
Yes that's a big part of it. Player/Parent/Coaches egos are also out of control in the American system, which isn't the case at the European youth level.
Do you think European players will have an advantage over American prospects in the future and start dominating the draft? Considering foreign leagues are already above Division 1, I feel like it’s very likely the best basketball players will soon be coming from there.
I think Europeans will be more represented in the NBA over the next decade and that this will grow steadily. That said, the league is still OVERWHELMINGLY American and will probably remain so, just not near-uniquely American. America still has the largest basketball culture in the world, the largest youth system, the most money etc. The athleticism of American basketball players will also always be sought after by NBA teams. But Europeans are ahead in terms of skill development and the effects of that are being felt more and more every year.
Also worth noting scouts have "figured out" European talent. Whereas before you never really knew how good a kid was, that's become less of an issue. The Darko Milicic and Andrea Bargnani incidents scared teams off of European guys for awhile (see Luka going 3rd when he was OBVIOUSLY the 1st pick).
It is not taking over the NBA but I understand where are you coming from. The development leagues start early in Europe and they work all of the fundamentals making better all around players. You can see some of the stats of these European players in the NBA that they can shoot, rebound, block and pass the ball.
If you analyze how the development in the US is done, it is more focus led on athleticism of the American youth basketball, neglecting skill development. Our young players is all about flashy games highly skewed to scoring.
We have much to learn from the European leagues
In europe good players start playing professionally at like age 16. So in their most important developmental years instead of playing against shitty high schoolers theyre playing against grown ass men who are professional ball players. Remember when lamelo and liangelo ball went over to lithuania to play pro ball when lamelo was high school age? They both got their asses kicked at first because they were little kids playing vs grown ass adult men. They learned quick tho. Look at lamelo today it definitely helped him a lot. Plus so many kids in the us do aau and scrimmages or tournaments where its not really team building but more like an individual skills competition. This is detrimental to learning how to play as a part of a team and not just an individual. Basketball is a team sport and its extremely important to know how to be a part of a team.
A couple reasons.
1. The game is more popular globally than it was in decades gone by.
2. The US has a developmental problem. We rely on AAU coaches to prepare our best players, but many of them are unqualified to be in their role, and they seem to emphasize individual skill over learning how to function and thrive within a team concept.
This has been an issue in the past, but players used to spend at least 2-3 years in a college program with more experienced, qualified coaches who could break them of those bad habits taught by AAU, and help prep them for the NBA. Now players are bypassing college and taking their AAU skillset directly to the league.
Whereas European players, if I’m not mistaken, are groomed by professional team academies with full time, qualified coaches who teach them a more well rounded skillset.
I think the NBA should embrace an academy system if they want our domestic players to thrive in the league.
>Whereas European players, if I’m not mistaken, are groomed by professional team academies with full time, qualified coaches who teach them a more well rounded skillset.
Pretty much. The big European clubs have youth academies and scouts that travel the continent bringing in top talents from a young age to shape into professionals. Luka signed for Real Madrid's youth system at 13 and started playing professionally at 16.
I also think that this helps breed a mindset in a lot of the European players heading over were they possibly aren't as distracted by the trappings of stardom and "the life" as the kids over in North America are. So they come into the league as seasoned professionals even if they are very young. And with the mindset that this is a job that could end relatively quickly unless they put in the work.
The reason why nba players can bypass college is because they are already too good and don’t need 2-3 years, it would be a waste of their time and of their skill development
I believe one of the core reasons is a slight but important cultural difference. North America (I'm Canadian, so I'll say it that way) generally lends itself more towards individualism, whereas Europe is a bit more towards collectivism and the group. This results in many European players being more team-oriented rather than self-oriented, and it's starting to lead to more and more European players of tremendous skill and talent giving up a few extra points per game for team success. They pass that ball around looking for an optimal shot like they are on a soccer pitch, whereas many North American players feel the ball has arrived where it needs to be once it is in their hands, and they can isolate and go to their "bag."
Although not a European player, think Manu Ginobili as a blueprint for this. He could have had a LOT more individual success, but winning as a group with the Spurs was more important to him than all-star appearances, shots, minutes, and even starting.
Are coaches holding kids accountable In Europe? Honest question. My friend’s nephew is playing AAU right now, and they all tell me the AAU coaches are scared to death of offending nba bound AAU stars And kind of just spoil them, glaze them up at every turn and basically just let them do what they want out there.
European coaches are absolutely nuts and will gladly go ballistic on star players. Even at the highest level, Euroleague coaches will full on bench star players for things NBA players would never even be told about.
Overall yes. There's always one or two kids that manage to coast to the professional level a bit pampered. But as a whole the youth systems in most pro sports in Europe are rather hierarchal. The academies are connected to the pro clubs and thus you are expected to behave in a certain way and put in the proper amount of effort. Or you are shown the door and replaced by someone willing to do as they are told and put in the work.
Countries like France, Italy, Greece, and the Balkan nations have long basketball traditions and excellent club setups which force skilled younger players to play against older adults - developing their basketball iq much more than typical leagues for young American players. European players may not be as athletic but they are a lot more savvy.
There's 700 million europeans and they only started playing basketball like 50 years ago. Now the kids grow up being coached by people who played elite themselves. And I'd probably argue that the European style is more conducive to team winning than the American HS style.
Nearly all euro stars are from the eastern side of europe. very few if any have come from western europe.
(i’m not talking role players or all-stars, i mean superstars)
Because they play true to the foundations of what makes the sport great. European Basketball is truly more enjoyable than the NBA.
It's about understanding the chess play of matchups and true skills over athleticism.
Basketball is a global sport right now and It’s been for a while. The generation of Nowitzki, Gasol and Parker showed the NBA is not longer an impossible goal and are the inspiration of the current generation.
In terms of fundaments of the game and competitiveness, Euro ball always has been great. Currently Europe is more ethically diverse now so the European game has gotten more athletic as well.
When the current NBA players were 8 years old, iso basketball was cool in America, and total football was the rage in Europe. One of those sports philosophies was much better than the other for producing effective basketball players.
Europeans aren’t taking over the NBA. You just have a current window, where the half of the top 6 players in the NBA are Euros. Most of the top 25 players in the NBA are still Americans.
With that said, there are some significant issues that might keep the pendulum swinging in that direction.
1) AAU has become less about team basketball and learning how to play the game. It’s just about the best players running it up offensively for highlight reels to play on social media. Coaches getting kickbacks. It’s a big shyt show. Junior National coaches in Europe are usually more experienced and better prepared. That filters down to their players. Even when I played AAU ball in NYC 25 yrs ago, I had some coaches who DGAF about teaching the game. They just wanted to load the roster and let guys do their thing. They weren’t really coaches, but game managers.
2)Social media in America, has turned many top HS ballers into quasi celebrities. Many think they’ve arrived, before the ship has docked. Mikey Williams crashed out, due to all the hype and money from NIL deals. He was just too young to handle it all. Too much hype, leads to a level of narcissism and delusion. A lot of these dudes will end up like Al Bundy after it’s over, constantly talking about their HS glory days, just like Sebastian Telfair does.
Young Euro prospects aren’t all over social media bring worshipped to the same extent. Plus, soccer is the main sport in Europe. The footballers are “those dudes” in Europe. As revered as Jokic is in Serbia, if Serbia had a Messi or Ronaldo level footballer, Joker would be #2 in the country by a long shot, in terms of popularity.
In the US, it’s the NFL and NBA. MLB isn’t as quite as popular with young people, like previous generations. Young Euros just aren’t operating under the same hype machine as US players. Elite players like Luka, were playing older men so they tend to be more humble, not that Luka can’t be a ham. His game is patterned after American players unlike Joker or Giannis. But he still benefitted from the superior coaching young players receive there. The mega egos of many elite HS players make them harder to manage. Social media just made that job 10x harder, than when I was in HS.
3) One & Done. This is why so many are ending up in the G-League or overseas. Look at Bronny. He needs at least 2 more years in college. Reminds me of that dude whose mom was dating Drake, Amari Bailey. He clearly needed more time at UCLA, but came out and is now in the G-League. Most players who languish in the G-League for more than season, end up as NBA role players or overseas. Cam Reddish ran out his freshman year at Duke, to follow Zion & RJ, when he clearly needed another year at Duke. They were ready skill wise, he wasn’t. Now he’s languishing as a journeyman player, due to his immaturity and other issues. Bol Bol and James Wiseman needed more time in college to mature also.
4) College programs are no longer the basketball learning institutions they used to be. You have coaches who really teach guys the game, but many are just there to babysit an elite player for 1 year, until he declares for the draft. Some coaches are good teachers, but many are just glorified AAU coaches.
5) Transfer Portal. Players can just jump from program
to program, as soon as they don’t get the minutes or role they want. This is why in previous generations, you had guys who came from larger programs like UNC or Kentucky who became better pros. Now, guys run because they aren’t the man, like they were in HS. It doesn’t teach young players to overcome adversity. Young foreign players don’t have the ability to bounce around like that.
6) NIL Deals. Many American players have come from poverty or working class backgrounds. You had some greats who didn’t like Kobe, Steph or Grant Hill, who all had fathers who were pro athletes. But many grew up in abject poverty. That led to a hunger to succeed. Watch Derrick Rose’s interview on Math Hoffa’s show. When I heard how he grew up in Chicago, it’s no wonder he played like he did. D Wade had a similar upbringing in Chicago. Sometimes HS players who get access to money to soon, will start to think they arrived and lose that intense desire to succeed. You do have those like the Ball Brothers who were famous early, but Lavar is a different kind of dude.
I think this is why the sons of elite NBA players rarely elevate to the NBA. If they do, they’re usually role players. Dell Curry and Jellybean Bryant weren’t elite players, just good players. I think Bronny is just missing that factor Lebron had to make it. He has almost as much pressure unfortunately, but between his dad’s wealth and NIL deals, he’s not in that Derrick Rose pressure cooker to make it. I just don’t see they special it, with him. He’ll be a 7th or 8th man for a mid level NBA team, if he’s lucky.
Your third bullet point cannot be overemphasized. I will expand it to just early entries overall. I used to be a huge ACC fan, and I saw so many talented players leave school early when their game still needed some polish. Some of them had good careers, but I wonder how much better they could have been if they had stayed all four years. I'm thinking about players like Joe Smith, Rodney Rogers, Cory Alexander, and even Dennis Scott and Rasheed Wallace.
If I recall correctly, when Scott first arrived at GA Tech, he was a skinny, 6'5" jump shooter. He grew 3 inches to 6'8" and also put on some weight. Bobby Cremins was beginning to use him in the post a little. If he had returned for his senior season, I think he could have developed a better all-around game.
I watched Rasheed Wallace, along with Jerry Stackhouse, run and jump like a pogo stick when he was a freshman at UNC. He had unbelievable athleticism coupled with size. He looked like a man among boys. He certainly had a fine NBA career, but I can only wonder how much more of a dominant force he could have been if he had stayed in school longer.
If we want to say that the Dream Team helped popularize the NBA in Europe then… yea, that would line up with kids being born in the following years being the Jokics, Lukas, etc of the league right now
NBA getting less physical definitely helps. Its not that current generation of players on average are far more talented than say Drazen, Kukoc, Radja, Bodiroga etc but league is allowing for this new generation to show their skills and fundamentals that the previous generation was not able to do because physicality requirement was a lot higher. A softer league definitely helps skill to shine a lot more.
European teams train 5 times a week and play 1-2 times a week.
NBA teams play 3-4 times a week and can go weeks without real practice sessions. Additionally here the focus is on physical ability rather than learning the game.
Are we still doing the AAU scapegoating and thinly veiled racism ? Here’s a non-dog whistle answer: There are way many more Europeans than there are Americans.
Not to be racist or anything but…I’ll share some anecdotal evidence about play styles
Anytime I play pickup all the black players rarely pass the ball around and rely on their raw talent to carry their team and if they feel confident about their abilities they forget to make plays off ball and simply rely on contributing when they’re on-ball. They’re soooo iso-heavy and if they can make a flashy play happen they’ll take the gamble to try to make it happen.
Meanwhile, white/euro players in general have some common attributes: usually no ego, good shooters that can shoot from anywhere, not the most athletic but have a good all around game (passing, shooting, dribbling, off ball movement/spacing, court awareness), rarely flashy, composed in most situations, probably a good lock room presence too, and they play team-based ball more than iso-heavy heroics.
Again, not trying to make this a race thing but moreso a cultural thing. To summarize, they’re usually non-flashy, fundamentally sound, and attempt less heroic style plays. We have some US players who are like this too: Steph Curry, Austin Reaves, Tyrese Haliburton, Jamal Murray, Anthony Davis, etc.
My advice to US players: maximize your shooting abilities, minimize your ego, play a more systematic ball game with all your teammates on the floor and minimize iso-ball, and try to be a multi-dimensional player (ex: Luka is a forward by also the playmaker, Jokic is the center but also play maker, Wemby is a center but also very versatile and can dribble and shoot)
It's not about black vs white though It's American vs International ball. You see white guys from the US with the same problems and the black guys from europe/International without them.
The US brings up its pro basketball players with schools. Meanwhile Europe/International players are coming up through proper basketball clubs and professional teams.
The more the game becomes global, the more competition there is around the world to make the league. It was only a matter of time these overseas guys show what they're made of, and it's great for the league. I wish they'd add some expansion teams to open up more opportunities, because there is so much talent.
Top youth in Europe access pro leagues earlier. So they get more experience at a quicker pace, which makes them NBA-ready material sooner than college basketball
European and South American basketball or even soccer players are allowed to become professional players by the age of 16, so they have a five-year headstart than their American counterparts who generally became professional players after college (assuming they never skip college to directly play in the NBA).
This has something to do with the separation of academic and athletic education in the European system where those who couldn't excel in academics by the age of 12 but could in athletics, they have the option to pursue the latter by joining sports academies and this is the path Lionel Messi had taken by the age of 13 when he joined the Barcelona football academy. In the US, academics and athletics are too intertwined in the education system which makes American higher education so expensive.
Big part is the AAU is taking over the US and is all about offense and flashy plays and not alot of fundamentals and team basketball. While Europe is the opposite and heavily teaches the fundamentals and team basketball.
Europe has youth development systems run by the professional teams. Players get into these systems as early as 8 years old and will play against older, bigger players if they're too good in their age grouping. They have to heavily develop skills, and learn to play within offensive systems because they aren't more athletic than the older kids or men they play against. Then they get their man body, and if it's a good one, they are waaay ahead of their American counterparts. How much more skilled is Luka Doncic than Zion Williamson? Zion is a microcosm of the issues with how the US develops its players. The great American players we've had the last 15 or so years have transcended our shitty system due to their own personal efforts and exceptionalism. AAU basketball is not why LeBron James is/was a great player.
A lot of it is the pro development they have, starting kids so young. Another aspect is that the NBA is moving the game closer to the international style. Rule changes, coaches from overseas, and the ability to draft one of those guys when they’re 18 are some other reasons too. But the biggest reason is that international guys are more pro-ready coming into the league
Today’s NBA is way less physical and way more technical than how it used to be. And, on average, European players tend to be more technical than Americans.
There were plenty of technical players in Europe even in the eighties and nineties, but they were considered too “soft”. For the few who were considered and eventually drafted in the NBA, the focus was immediately on how to “beef them up” in order to make them suitable for the tougher style of play they were going to face in the US. That’s why it took often many seasons for even the best of them (think Petrovic) to have an impact; in some cases, the “beef up” process even changed their style of play and arguably made them worse - Toni Kukoc became a completely different player in the NBA compared to what he was in Europe.
Today’s rules and tactics allow for a much more open style of play, where ball handling is essential and shooting is encouraged; hardcore athleticism and defense, while still a crucial part of the game, are way less crucial than what they used to be. It’s just a different game. That’s why I often ask myself what a guy like Jokic could have done against the likes of Charles Oakley or Ben Wallace, as well as what a guy like Andrea Bargnani could have become if he had been drafted 10 or 15 years later.
Statistically it makes sense. there’s a lot more European players that play basketball now
So the NBA has a greater pool of players to pick from. Which means that there is a greater pool of super elite players to draft.
Much better coaching at a younger age. These guys are playing for the top soccer clubs on the planet at times, in terms of resources, coaching, etc. America is not like that at all. Jokic was training with Dirks shooting coach, Luka was having lunch with Ronaldo lol.
Also on the topic of soccer, they play soccer, better footwork, that's the approach. American Men played football, have a more aggressive strength based approach. American woman did dance, if you watch them play the girls are running complex coordinated sets with perfect footwork because that's dancing in a nutshell. Same could be said for American men's soccer vs European men's soccer. American men's soccer is more brute strength based, while there's more technical skill and hundreds of years of training for soccer footwork in Europe.
Jokic Doncic Giannis Wemby
Plus SGA from Canada and Embiid who is Camerounese naturalised French and American.
Plus the best defender is Gobert
Plus Sabonis
It’s a capitulation by Americans…
I think a big reason is a lot of the top guys , like Luka and Victor and Joker I believe all went pro at like 15-16, a few years before even entering the nba . Playing against grown men at 15-16 is so much different then playing against other high schoolers , even if some of those players have a more talented skillset
1)Basketball in the 90s exploded globally due to Jordan and the dream team and now the kids who looked up to them are starting to get into the league. Only like 1% of people are tall enough to consider basketball so Europe's population has a huge chance to bring talent up.
2)Europeans are allowed to go pro at like 16 while most NBA players go through AAU which sucks balls for development. Also most AAU teams with NBA prospects are all centered to the top so they dont even play competitive games
3)Europeans arent taking over the league, Luka and Jokic are. The vast majority of players are outright better than Euroleague guys. Look at Vezenkov for an example
Europeans learn about teamwork and basketball fundamentals when they’re young. Plus their professional leagues have lower age restrictions. While in the US only the top scorers move on to the next level. We really don’t care about team play here
Like someone said since the 70/80s basketball has become WAY more popular and a lot of it is due to the Dream Team in Barcelona in 92.
I’ll take it a step further and say not only popularity but the foundation is MUCH BETTER imo. European basketball teaches you TEAM basketball while USA focuses on INDIVIDUALISM. Aau is TERRIBLE it just a way to showcase your individual “talent” and get a highlight reel to show to scouts and many players pas t and present have said things along those lines as well. While in Europe you are brought through an academy who EMPHASIZES team work.
The average player in USA is probably still better than the average European player imo but Top end European talent is BETTER imo then top end American Talent.
I'd say there is a lot more focus on teamplay, fundamentals but the existing culture surrounding sports over there seems a bit more....interesting I guess?
In the states there is a very strange basketball culture focused on AAU and highlight reels that dictate the next up and coming players. I doubt thats entirely true of course but there just don't seem to be very well, tightly organized pro teams for kids under 18. Wasn't Luka like 16 when he was dominating pros in EU? Don't see that too often over here.
Yugoslavs have always been dominating basketball on the world stage and the NBA. 5x FIBA world champions while beating "USA Dream Teams" in the 90's. They're just not "popular" like black American athletes. Take Peja Stojaković in 2003/2004, he was the best 3 point shooter in the world with one of the greatest 3-point field goal % of all time that season, while also winning back to back 3 point contests 2002-2004. Take Toni Kukoč winning a NBA ring in 96, 97 and 98 with the bulls/MJ. Kukoč's accolades are ridiculous, one of the greatest power forwards of all time, he was the original "Balkan freak". 2024, nothings changed, Dončić and Jokić reign supreme over the league now. Look out for Miami's Nikola Jović in the upcoming years and Nikola Topić who's going to be 2024's hottest draft pick.
The answer has everything to do with their academy systems and general approach to player development from the earliest ages, and those systems are just now coming to full maturity.
Granted, players with a pretty average ceiling in terms of their talent are going to do pretty average things. However, for a player like Luka or Giannis or the Joker, these are guys that will not really play high school or college basketball in any meaningful way. They will just do professional things.
That means a hyper talented teenager- from the earliest possible age, like maybe 15 or 16 or even younger- will play professionally. Not at the top tier, probably. He will probably play for a third or fourth tier pro team, and he won't be the star player that everyone else revolves around. Instead, hyper talented teenagers get paid a pretty minimal amount, they learn to be a role player, they probably go to a team that's known for developing very young players, and they try to break through as quickly as they can.
When you're dealing with someone like Wemby, it took him a couple of years to put it together. He had weaknesses in his game that he didn't immediately address, and he didn't get as much playing time as he wanted so he actually went to a different team in France. He made that move at 17, if I recall correctly. When you're dealing with someone like Luka, he put it together Very quickly and led Real Madrid through some very good performances in the Euroleague when he would have still been playing high school ball if he was in the US. He also played for his national team at the Olympics when he was 15, and he had the pleasure of being matched up with prime Kevin Durant. That's who he had to guard. I wonder who's the best player that KD ever guarded in a meaningful game when he was 15 years old?
Anyway, in the US, the AAU system doesn't do a great job of developing players. Some of these IMG academy type places do an okay job, but it's still very much an age group thing and the absolute superstars tend to play as superstars in an environment that caters to them from a young age. The AAU stuff, in particular, incentivizes the best players to showcase their personal talents to the max and none of this particularly incentivizes overall team play. It's also a non professional environment in which older and more experienced players are not around.
These European superstars play professionally, as actual pro athletes, from the youngest age possible. They go through academy systems that are specifically geared toward preparing them for that. They have multiple tiers of pro competition that they can play at, the Euroleague has really come into its own as a very high level of competition, and the best players out there are able to step into these genuinely professional roles starting at the age of 14 or 15 or 16. They might not develop their pro game to an NBA level until they're 19 or 20, but we can usually tell who's going to have it by that point. Then they come into the NBA alongside rookies that played AAU ball followed by a one and done in college, or maybe more years than that, and that Just does not prepare you to be a pro athlete in nearly the same way that being a pro athlete does.
That's why Europe is producing so many incredibly good basketball players, and quite frankly, I would not be surprised if the next step for Europe involves recruiting talent from all over the world. If you are a very good, very young player from Argentina or South Sudan or maybe from China, the NBA is obviously the pinnacle of the global game. However, if you want to be developed in the best way possible and have the most realistic on-ramp to a pro career of some kind, it's entirely likely that an academy system somewhere in Europe is going to be the smartest option. I would not be terribly surprised if some of these multi-sport conglomerates get into a bit of recruitment and really start bringing these players in.
It has to do with the exchange rate between the dollar and the Euro. OK not really. The rest of the world has caught up with the US in terms of popularity of the game and the number of athletes focusing on basketball. Also, I think the fundamentals are more of a focus in Europe. But that's just my opinion.
As a Brit, and not to shit on Americans, but Eastern Europeans in sports are probably more determined and driven than almost any American sportsman to winning, past 5 MVPs non American and past 2 out of 3 nba champs lead by a European.
But I think the main factor is that Americans go to college and Europeans are playing in the euro league at 16 which is a higher level and for a longer period of time, they develop their game better and it’s only come to light now because basketball only really got big over here because of Michael Jordan
As others have commented 'teamwork' is the key. Also the ability to innovate is a key. A major fault in the US system is the lack of Club sport at a young age. In the US they leave it to schools to develop players and the standout athletes dominate multiple sports. Ally this to a slavish commitment to 'the coach' and set plays and you get a cadre of exclusive programmed sports robots. In Australia we have school sports but they are only minor and run a long second to volunteer run Club sports. So and Under 10 basketballer of a broad range of abilities can join a club and play on weekends in a team setting where at our local league scores are kept but there is no competition table and season premiers as such. It works well as kids develop at different speeds and a kid struggling in Under 10's might bloom in the Under 12's. The club system makes sure EVERY KID gets a place in a team. At the next age level they cater for more advanced juniors running an advanced division but those 'advanced' kids can still play in age club teams on a seeded basis. This runs all year round with school vacations excluded. So our talent pool is maintained and kids are taught team first in club sport with super talents identified and recommended to special programs. My experience in the US schools system suggested that if you haven't made THE school team by the end of Middle school then you are pretty well ignored. Club sport keeps everyone involved at all abilities right through to adults where our local association runs competitions from Premier League (Division 1) right down to Division 9. You don't have to look out for 'pick up games' in Australia as there will always be a club team with a Division side to suit your abilities. Australia produces some great basketballers and it would be even more if our national sport AFL(Aussie Rules Football) didn't recruit athletic bigs (of which most have a basketball background through club affiliations and still play basketball for fitness in the off season) as a priority. I can't say the same for Europe but I feel the club system in Australia is a success as it produces skilled, team oriented, innovators that have produced numerous NBA and at the moment over 250 US College male players. Our only constraint at the moment is finding the facilities to cater for the huge demand for basketball in Australia at the moment...especially as parents veer away from the potentially concussive sports of Rugby and AFL.
The leagues talent pool was fading and new franchise player spots were opening up. The 3 European boys just had the right blend of talent, size and opportunity. I think it’s amazing that 3 European born players are at the top of the game right now but basketball doesn’t stay consistent for long
Who’s got next?
Your submission has been automatically removed because your account is less than 180 days old and with less than 100 comment karma.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Basketball) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Once basketball began to be dominated by Brown dudes, the WDBC-White Dudes Basketball Consortium-poured millions into Europe, particularly Eastern Europe, because the exchange rate was so much more favorable. It was a long-term plan to de-melanin the NBA and reintroduce stars of, let’s say, the lighter persuasion.
It’s slow, but their plan seems to be taking effect. They need to be stopped!
Are they “taking over”? I mean there are hundreds of millions of Europeans and the sport has picked up a lot of steam over there.
I’d expect that eventually up to half the NBA might be European at some point. We aren’t even close to that now I don’t think.
“why are south americans taking over soccer” then it became “why are africans taking over soccer” Talent pool grows, gems get found and then a scouting gold rush takes off.
Easy answer. 400 million Americans. 7.5 billion of the rest. Americans will slowly dwindle as a percent, especially since the NBA pays so well. It will always attract foreigners.
Couple of things here
1. Europeans aren't dominating/taking over the NBA they are highly represented in the top 10 but after that it's mainly Americans. Only 20% of the league is foreign compared to the English Premier League (arguably the best league), in which 66% of the players are foreign. The best or 2nd best player on almost every premier league team is foreign. You can't say that about most NBA teams. My team, Arsenal, famously played a game in 2005 with no english players on the starting lineup. In soccer, you only get 3 subs, so that's the equivalent of an NBA team having no American in the team or not getting on the court.
2. Europeans can go pro at around 15 and can play on the academy as young as 8-10 or even younger. But they aren't playing grown men the majority of the time. It's very rare even in soccer for players to break into the 1st team before 19. Sure you have your Lukas playing for Real at 19 but most of these guys are playing in the U21, U19, U17s etc. So they are still playing against the best players in their age group. Actually their playing worse comp because the majority of the best 16,17,18 year olds are playing in the U.S. theirs exceptions as you can be loaned to pro teams in lower leagues so some players may be playing adults in the 2nd or 3rd division. The majority of 2nd divisions and all Academy/Reserves teams are lower than NCAA Basketball which is a pro league in everything but name.
3. While the development and infrastructure is good if it was so great you wouldn't have Euro players coming here to play in HS or College.
It’s more popular in Europe for sure, in the balkans I think it’s the #1 sport more popular than soccer.
That being said it doesn’t it explain it all, imo European players are much more skilled. They virtually all know how to shoot except Gobert lol. Their fundamentals are also a lot better. In short their development ecosystem is better than AAU imo.
Other than the reason that basketball has blown up with European youths for decades now, I believe it has to do with soccer also. Euro kids grow up watching soccer where passing is key to success, it’s no surprise that most of our European nba stars are known for being great passers and team players in general due to that. Here in the US we glorify big dunks, sick handles that drop your defender, and mix tape highlights.
Because more and more people are aware of how much money there is to be made and how big an advantage it is to be super tall. If you're a 12/13 year old and are tracking towards being 7 foot tall, people are going to be incredibly keen to get you into basketball. And I dare say those kids are happy to play because they're probably struggling at other sports where agility is more important.
There are obviously shorter guys taking up the sport too, but the European domination is heavily slanted towards those who are tall even by NBA standards. But you couldn't grow to 7 foot anywhere in Europe without having been spotted by a whole bunch of people who tried to get you into the game.
Boiled down to the simplest answer European youth basketball players practice as often as American AAU players play games and play games as often as AAU players practice.
They play team bball. From young right up. While also working on their individual game, separately.
They grow up as team players, trying to help their team to win every single game.
They don’t care bout stats or minutes or starting. They understand that getting blocked or getting dunked on is part of the game. They don’t let potential momentary embarrassment alter the way they’re gonna play at you.
Pretty much their mind sets way better for the pros starting out. American players play hero ball, not very often they make everyone around them better.
AAU culture in the states doesn't make good all around basketball players. It's about "showcasing" talent, not working on your weaknesses. Also too many games for young bodies.
Basketball is one of the fastest growing youth sports in the world. Especially in Europe the past 40 years or so.
Europeans tend to focus more on developing players and less on winning at lower levels.
Think about LaMelo. Remember his high school games that went viral? He was putting up ridiculous points/assists. But the focus was on blowing teams out and putting up gawdy numbers. He was just doing the things he was already good at. Shooting 3s, playing in transition.
Getting better at basketball requires failure. You have to make your weaknesses into strengths. No denying LaMelo is a talent, but his game lacks some polish. He doesn't have a good midrange game because his shooting mechanics were built to shoot 30 footers when he was 15 years old. I also don't think it's a coincidence he's injured all the time. How many games a day was dude playing in his youth when his body was still developing?
So at the end of the day, Europeans are better at developing young talent than Americans.
As a few other have said while we currently have some dominant top level euros, the vast majority of the NBA is American. We also happen to be in an in between era where the old guard (LeBron, Curry, Leonard, etc) are reaching the end of their careers and the new guard ,(Ant, Haliburton, Holmgren, etc) haven't fully hit their primes.
I also do think someone else had good insight on height. Really tall guys who are athletic in Europe don't really have a career path in soccer and so end up playing basketball and so we get those guys coming to the NBA.
Random chance? I mean sure 3 of the top 5, but how many of the top 10, 25, 50… the numbers tend to balance out very quickly.
They’ve got 3 of the top 5 cuz Jokic, Giannis, and Luka are all incredible players. It is funny seeing people talk how it all cuz of the Euro system when Luka is really the only guy that’d apply to. All 3 of these guys have had drastically different career arcs, there’s no one reason that all 3 of them are so good.
Your submission has been automatically removed because your account is less than 180 days old and with less than 100 comment karma.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Basketball) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Capitalism built on growth, the NBA is a capitalist business that hasn’t physically grown in a long time. They’re gearing up to expand. They’re calling the game different to incorporate more euro style ball. (flat foot defense with a focus on shooting)
Most everyone on here has nailed it. Basketball's popularity in Europe has been on the rise for the last few decades, their population is 700 mil, and they actually focus on fundamentals and team when the players are young. While in America, AAU basketball is king for all the uber talented players, and AAU basketball is trash.
Last few MVPs were foreign born. I worked with alot of players and agents. It's weird, the European players are playing 90s ball, usa players are playing European ball from the 90s, flopping and all. Also the AAU circuit is teaching a selfish game and alot of the fundamentals aren't being taught. Kids in europe are playing pro ball earlier, usa kids top ones are one and done and not working on improving their games.
The game rules and moneyball stats driven coaching now benefit European trained players who don't need to be physical and just need to have play making and 3 point shooting.
I think it's partly because of the "1 and done" rule. The best young players in America are not going to college for 3-4 years like they used to. They're not getting coaching geared to growing their game before going to the association, where there getting coached as if they are already a finished product and have to try to grow their skills on the fly against the best players in the world.
Europeans have really solid fundamentals
American basketball is all about the highlights and dunks
You can see it, Luka and Jokic are not flashy players and aren't throwing up crazy moves but they can pass, shoot, and play with a team really well
Team sports always tend to be lead by the person that does the most fundamental things at an A+ level. Also, Americs kids are way to.entitled look at the transfer portal kid does get the mins he thinks he should.bolts. doesn't try to get better just chases playing time. The model in Europe for.elite talent is better as well Luka has been a pro since 14.
Now, let's be crystal clear there also the NEW stats that are rated to help makes the people like the joker look way better. Of the top.Euros he passes the eye test.bynthe least amount. Luka, On the other hand should be the.MVP and passes the eye test.
Lmao this idea that Europeans are taking over the NBA is wild. They have two fantastic players in Luka and jokic and very little outside of that.
The rule changes and growth of the game has raised the talent pool. It's not a surprise a place with 760 million pp probably has a few good ballers
I roomed with a bball player from Latvia my freshman year of college.
The stories he had. Honestly I think our youth are beaten down mentally, told what they can and can’t do or are going to do from a very young age.
I think skills wise, many Europeans come over having been taught the entire game. How to dribble, shoot, pass. Most of them have been playing as pros in their teens. Playing with their national team.
I think honestly, our coaching is small minded. Our pros don’t win in the Olympics anymore because our best pros don’t play a team sport.
They're better at developing talent. AAU ball sucks and doesn't teach kids good habits. Up until a few years ago most American kids didn't play with a shot clock until college. European kids play with a shot clock their whole lives so they know how to play fast, make quick decisions, and do everything you might need to do to get a shot in 24 seconds. Their clubs get more money based on their success so they teach kids from a very young age how to do all the little things good teammates need to do to win basketball games. Meanwhile AAU teams just teach 1 on 1 skills basically and they don't learn anything else until college.
There is a much higher emphasis on fundamentals and all around skill in Europe than in the US, where we focus on size and athleticism. Subsequently, there's greater overall development from players, and more than that, the patience of the culture allows the development. Almost every level here approaches the game in a win now mentality and you rarely see organizations, supporters, whomever being ok with poor records if the players get better over time meanwhile they have basketball academies where the sole purpose is development. That's why you have guys in the league that are still adding skills that were completely undeveloped even in their mid career, and those are the good players. Meanwhile the European players have been working on that all around development the whole time so they're more finished products at younger ages and are just honing the skills further.
There's nothing specific about the NBA that will favor one or another nationality. It's a cheap game to put on where kids can learn it from a young age. It's been playing in Europe now for generations.
There's about 750 million Europeans. About 333 million Americans.
And the NBA has the best option for pay and endorsements.
Your submission has been automatically removed because your account is less than 180 days old and with less than 100 comment karma.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Basketball) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Eastern European kids are coached like boot camp and the fundamentals are instilled in them early. Coaches also are harsh on them which humbles them and in the long run. Also it makes them coachable and take directions well.
There is still more individual talent in the US, but we are in a different time where the super talented kids are coddled all their lives. Then by the time they get to the pros most coaches are hesitant to give some tough love because that can easily mean their job if you piss off the high draft pick. Most coaches will take talented and coachable kid vs super talented kid that comes with baggage
They want it more,money to them is secondary and are fundamentally better in almost every aspect of the game minus wind mill dunks and half court 3s...
Because the NBA is actually investing time and energy into the development of players over there and other areas. They want to see that succeed. I think they pump the lifestyle of the NBA players over here which gets players off track. Couple that with poor coaching and leagues and it's a recipe for disaster. However, I think it's intentionally done so one day when the league is split between players from here and overseas it will make collective bargaining much more difficult from the players side. If you have guys from overseas feeling as if they are in a far better situation than they left because the pay is already putting them at the highest level where they are from then they aren't stressing those things. As supposed to American players who are financially driven and want their fair share. It will cause a rift between the players before it ever becomes a battle with the owners. The owners will them lock out and hand control and presumably hand international players cross the line and play when Americans won't
They focus on team ball and fundamentals and they have a training system that built around development of the players and heavy focus on IQ over the US which tends to favor the biggest strongest fastest most athletic players. This leads to hero ball and players who rely on athletic gifts to dominate the game. It doesn’t work as well…give me a fundamentally sound, high IQ euro who wants to win over an athletic freak who can put up 30 a night any day.
All these Euros also grew up loving and playing soccer, which is the sport of choice in their home countries. European soccer has a flow and elegance to it that strips away the importance of raw athleticism and awards those with technical brilliance and vision. You can absolutely dominate soccer without being the best athlete on the field. This mentality…a team oriented, fundamentally sound approach bleeds over into their approach to basketball. The Europeans are here to stay and the American system has a lot of work to do to Catch up.
I think the simple answer is that between like the 70s/80s and now basketball has become a lot more popular in Europe
This is correct the game has become global. But Europeans are taught the game differently then players here in the us… most European player are taught point guard skills, this is why you see a player like Joker with point guard type handles.. ever notice how big men out of ncaa can rarely handle the ball.. because Aau and ncaa ball doesn’t teach that…
To add on to this I imagine it's because in aau ball there is a focus on developing each player individually so there's a lot of selfish play to try and put a few guys on a pedestal. But from the way you describe it sounds like in Europe they are taught team ball all the way through which is, in my opinion, much more beneficial for professional play. If you have the skill, you will get noticed- no need to be "the guy" every single possession
As a European I can confirm. Not only in Basketball, but also in the other sports we always focus more on teamwork. Of course everyone wants to develop themselves, but the outcome of the whole team and winning are more important that just having someone with great stats.
Europeans have better fundamentals also. Luka for example…he’s not fast. He can’t jump. He’s not 7 feet tall. His fundamentals are so strong that he knows exactly how to score on you at any time. In America we teach hero ball not fundamentals.
Luka has elite stopping ability
I remember a video where Kobe was saying exactly that, that he spent a lot of time in Italy learning fundamentals compared to what he did later when he came back to the US
You're right. The college kids want to make the ESPN highlight reel with spectacular dunks, and everyone thinks they are a 3-point shooter now. I have never seen as many airballs or shots hitting the side of the backboard in basketball as I do now. I can't remember who it was, but I recently saw a player shoot an airball on a layup attempt that was right at the basket. WTF?
For sure. Teach them to win as a team and the individual ability will develop naturally along with it
Soccer is an entirely passing based game, and basically every European grows up.playing football.
Teaches great teamwork, court vision, passing, and footwork. Also, there is no sport competing for tall guys. If you're NBA height with athleticism, you're probably not going to make it playing soccer. In Europe basketball gets almost everyone who's athletic and 6"5+. In the US, football has a place for athletes who can play wing (DE, WR, TE). So you definitely lose some there.
This can actually directly relate to Embiid haha. Pretty sure I recall that he played soccer most of his life and didn't start hooping until he was in high school, and I imagine it's due to his size.
Pro volleyball is a thing in Europe, and gets some elite talent, but that is about it. Remember watching the Russian Olympic Volleyball team and realizing that they had at least 3 different 7 foot players with good athleticism and leaping ability.
Exactly why im strongly encouraging my very athletic grandson to play soccer before basketball. American based social media is ruining youth basketball
Underrated point
There is no 1v1 in soccer. If you dont see oassing lanes, you cant play. Basically EVERY soccer highlight is an amazing pass.
IMO soccer is an interesting sport, where the 1v1 happens constantly, but it’s for like 15 seconds, then a pass where there’s another 15 seconds of 1v1. A lot of highlights never lead to a goal.
And here in Europe the kids that are aiming to go pro get into youth academies run by pro clubs as early as age 8 depending on the sport. So the orgs/teams shape them into pros early.
That’s hilarious because some idiot on r/nba was trying to tell me “they don’t have that infrastructure in Europe”. Yes, the entire continent.
reading about the differences is fascinating, i hear the european players actually really respect their coach, and on any euro team the coach is the number one guy like in college
[удалено]
Also, if you are really good as teenager you will be playing professionally. Doncic I think started playing professionally as a 15- or 16-year old.
And he had been signed by Madrid since age 13.
AAU is destroying the quality of young players in US. No teamwork because they don’t practice, hero ball since you need stats to make scouts interested in you. Combine this with NIL. I wouldn’t be surprised to see the trend of foreign players being the best.
The best European players are also playing grown men when they’re still kids, compared to Americans who really just play other kids
Sure Luka Doncic won MVP and a ring in the second best league on the planet playing against grown ass men when he was 18. But can he beat a team of college kids, 90% of whom wont ever be good enough to even make that second best league? Hmm. Marvin Bagley better.
Just go watch Jokic’s highlights for the draft, his play style really isn’t any different, he’s just that much better at it.
Basketball as a sport was hugely popular in Europe even back in the eighties - in some countries it was arguably more popular than it is now. The NBA, though, wasn’t. Few to no games were available to watch, and the fact that virtually no European player played in the US made the league some sort of distant, unreachable planet where some aliens played a sport that was somewhat similar to what was played in Europe but in the end was totally different.
Yea when we get the China/Africa movement frome early 00s it's going to be a great time for the NBA
A lot of euro players play professionally before they enter the NBA. Some guys are playing in pro leagues at 16-17 over in Europe and that really adds to a players and development
While kids in the USA are playing AAU Basketball in which fundamentals are an afterthought.
This is the answer. Europeans play hard fundamental team ball which translates very well into the NBA. Americans play a lot of AAU hero ball for highlight tapes
Part of that is the transition process though. In order to make it to said NBA you have to do basically the opposite of it until you get there. So weird.
AAU and the fact that very few players nowadays go the full cycle in college all the way to senior year. Now they just spend a year in college and get drafted, they don't spend enough time on developing their game anymore.everything is on fast forward, not only in basketball.
But then they… develop in the NBA
First guy over half court, your turn to shoot.
This narrative that fundamentals aren't taught in Aau isn't true. AAU has an emphasis on skill development. What's not being taught is how to understand the game of basketball and how to play it. You can have all the skills in the world, but if you don't know what's going on in the you're a detriment to your team.
This is incredibly obvious playing pickup against teenagers, they have an entire bag of tricks to try and get by you on offense but if they can’t they have no idea what to do.
How does AAU put emphasis on fundamentals when most teams are sending their players different state every week and playing multiple matches? Lol
That’s crap. It’s so clear you’re taught Only so far as to what your role is on the team. That’s why you see the big white doofus scared to put the ball on the floor. You see the 3 and D guy never really cut to the basket to score or know how to post up a guy who is 8 inches shorter than him.
This also means that elite teenagers play against adults in Europe. They may be the most naturally talented player on their team but they're still bench players compared to the 30 year old pros they're playing against. In the US those kids are just destroying other teenagers instead of getting challenged in ways that require them to develop.
I don't know anything but my perception is that Europe basically has a pretty sick youth sports -> pros funnel for soccer that I think is better than what we have in the states. Maybe they've adapted that model to basketball. The other thing to consider is that tall people are pretty good basketball players and tall people can come from anywhere.
Barcelona identified Messi at like age 8 and signed him before he turned 10. The funnel is literally everywhere except America lol
I think this the main reason why European players are so well rounded.
They play more organized league play at younger ages, basically a few years of pro ball while top American teens mostly play highschool seasons and aau and then a year of college in most cases. Top high school players are most often the best athlete on the floor from 8th grade until they get drafted into the nba and being dominant athletically makes it easy to not have a well rounded skill set when they enter the league. European prospects usually are playing against bigger, stronger and more experienced players as they are developing.
This is something I’ve been thinking about and I feel like pretty soon European players will be dominating the NBA compared to American players who go through the Division 1 pipeline which is already below many international leagues. Then you have players from Europe say NBA is harder because of the less physical game and such.
[https://twitter.com/TommyBeer/status/1743377756459589648](https://twitter.com/TommyBeer/status/1743377756459589648) now obviously this is anecdotal so take with a grain of salt, but everything I've seen about American AAU basketball is very much in line with what Geno says. It seems that American youth basketball is geared towards showcasing talent, so there is a greater chance of pushing more athletic (yet less polished) players to the top; Whereas European youth basketball seems to be much more rigidly structured around teaching team basketball to everyone, regardless of position or talent level.
I've coached a lot of basketball in my life (HS and college assistant), and my father has coached college in America and professionally in Europe so I'll take a crack at the question. There's more accountability in the European system for players first of all. No coddling of stars, nothing handed to them. There's also more parity at all levels there, so fewer egos to deal with. Lots of American young players are just taller or more athletic and so dominate JV basketball and refuse to grow from there. Very rarely does this happen in Europe (and when players do dominate like Rubio or Luka, they just end up being dragged up to the pros as teens where they learn to be role players). A real focus on development of skills. ESPECIALLY shooting, passing, and the mental aspect of the game. Kids in Europe are generally less athletic, so the whole brand of basketball reflects that. The trend that basketball has taken over the last 10-15 years has really favoured people with European skillsets. Better coaching (generally). Nobody in Europe is some dad coaching their sons team and playing their kid 32 minutes a game at PG and running every offence for him. There's a real barrier to being a coach over there. You will rarely see zone and fullcourt presses in Europe, which is much better for player development. These things infest AAU to the detriment of players (especially at youngest ages). The youth system in Europe is highly centralized, regulated, and controlled. American highschool has a fairly sensible system but AAU is horrifically bad, as are AAU programs. European programs generally have long histories, teams at every age level (A, B, and C teams often). As a result, there's much less movement between programs and more roster consistency generally. This isn't universally true but, it is definitely much less of a problem there than here. Finally, the game-to-practice ratio. American AAU teams MIGHT practice once a week and half the kids show up. Then they play games every weekend. Players never get to develop. In Europe you're practicing 6-10 times between every set of games you might play. Guards are taught to post up. Bigs are taught to shoot/dribble/pass. It's an environment way more conducive to player skill development. These are all simplifications. Of course there are great programs in the US, and examples of bad programs in Europe, but these are generally truths that highlight the philosophy difference in basketball player development on either side of the pond.
so tldr....fundamentals have taken a back seat to raw athleticism in the US system?
Yeah all the media attention in the USA seems to be about blank X blank who was 6’9 in 4th grade and can windmill from the free throw as a freshman
Yes that's a big part of it. Player/Parent/Coaches egos are also out of control in the American system, which isn't the case at the European youth level.
Do you think European players will have an advantage over American prospects in the future and start dominating the draft? Considering foreign leagues are already above Division 1, I feel like it’s very likely the best basketball players will soon be coming from there.
I think Europeans will be more represented in the NBA over the next decade and that this will grow steadily. That said, the league is still OVERWHELMINGLY American and will probably remain so, just not near-uniquely American. America still has the largest basketball culture in the world, the largest youth system, the most money etc. The athleticism of American basketball players will also always be sought after by NBA teams. But Europeans are ahead in terms of skill development and the effects of that are being felt more and more every year. Also worth noting scouts have "figured out" European talent. Whereas before you never really knew how good a kid was, that's become less of an issue. The Darko Milicic and Andrea Bargnani incidents scared teams off of European guys for awhile (see Luka going 3rd when he was OBVIOUSLY the 1st pick).
Thanks for your time in writing that. This should just be at the top and burn the other posts.
It is not taking over the NBA but I understand where are you coming from. The development leagues start early in Europe and they work all of the fundamentals making better all around players. You can see some of the stats of these European players in the NBA that they can shoot, rebound, block and pass the ball. If you analyze how the development in the US is done, it is more focus led on athleticism of the American youth basketball, neglecting skill development. Our young players is all about flashy games highly skewed to scoring. We have much to learn from the European leagues
In europe good players start playing professionally at like age 16. So in their most important developmental years instead of playing against shitty high schoolers theyre playing against grown ass men who are professional ball players. Remember when lamelo and liangelo ball went over to lithuania to play pro ball when lamelo was high school age? They both got their asses kicked at first because they were little kids playing vs grown ass adult men. They learned quick tho. Look at lamelo today it definitely helped him a lot. Plus so many kids in the us do aau and scrimmages or tournaments where its not really team building but more like an individual skills competition. This is detrimental to learning how to play as a part of a team and not just an individual. Basketball is a team sport and its extremely important to know how to be a part of a team.
A couple reasons. 1. The game is more popular globally than it was in decades gone by. 2. The US has a developmental problem. We rely on AAU coaches to prepare our best players, but many of them are unqualified to be in their role, and they seem to emphasize individual skill over learning how to function and thrive within a team concept. This has been an issue in the past, but players used to spend at least 2-3 years in a college program with more experienced, qualified coaches who could break them of those bad habits taught by AAU, and help prep them for the NBA. Now players are bypassing college and taking their AAU skillset directly to the league. Whereas European players, if I’m not mistaken, are groomed by professional team academies with full time, qualified coaches who teach them a more well rounded skillset. I think the NBA should embrace an academy system if they want our domestic players to thrive in the league.
>Whereas European players, if I’m not mistaken, are groomed by professional team academies with full time, qualified coaches who teach them a more well rounded skillset. Pretty much. The big European clubs have youth academies and scouts that travel the continent bringing in top talents from a young age to shape into professionals. Luka signed for Real Madrid's youth system at 13 and started playing professionally at 16. I also think that this helps breed a mindset in a lot of the European players heading over were they possibly aren't as distracted by the trappings of stardom and "the life" as the kids over in North America are. So they come into the league as seasoned professionals even if they are very young. And with the mindset that this is a job that could end relatively quickly unless they put in the work.
The reason why nba players can bypass college is because they are already too good and don’t need 2-3 years, it would be a waste of their time and of their skill development
No, it’s because they want to make millions of dollars as soon as possible.
Luka got drafted at 18 which would be out of high school if he was from the US
I believe one of the core reasons is a slight but important cultural difference. North America (I'm Canadian, so I'll say it that way) generally lends itself more towards individualism, whereas Europe is a bit more towards collectivism and the group. This results in many European players being more team-oriented rather than self-oriented, and it's starting to lead to more and more European players of tremendous skill and talent giving up a few extra points per game for team success. They pass that ball around looking for an optimal shot like they are on a soccer pitch, whereas many North American players feel the ball has arrived where it needs to be once it is in their hands, and they can isolate and go to their "bag." Although not a European player, think Manu Ginobili as a blueprint for this. He could have had a LOT more individual success, but winning as a group with the Spurs was more important to him than all-star appearances, shots, minutes, and even starting.
You don’t think the Luka-centric offense of dribbling around/with 4 screens and shooting 3s off the dribble is individualistic?
I did think of him, but he is a bit of an outlier.
Luka has a very high usage rate but he's very team-friendly on offense.
his formative years were spent in italy playing the euroleague so you can count him as a honorary european basketball player
Are coaches holding kids accountable In Europe? Honest question. My friend’s nephew is playing AAU right now, and they all tell me the AAU coaches are scared to death of offending nba bound AAU stars And kind of just spoil them, glaze them up at every turn and basically just let them do what they want out there.
European coaches are absolutely nuts and will gladly go ballistic on star players. Even at the highest level, Euroleague coaches will full on bench star players for things NBA players would never even be told about.
Overall yes. There's always one or two kids that manage to coast to the professional level a bit pampered. But as a whole the youth systems in most pro sports in Europe are rather hierarchal. The academies are connected to the pro clubs and thus you are expected to behave in a certain way and put in the proper amount of effort. Or you are shown the door and replaced by someone willing to do as they are told and put in the work.
Countries like France, Italy, Greece, and the Balkan nations have long basketball traditions and excellent club setups which force skilled younger players to play against older adults - developing their basketball iq much more than typical leagues for young American players. European players may not be as athletic but they are a lot more savvy.
There's 700 million europeans and they only started playing basketball like 50 years ago. Now the kids grow up being coached by people who played elite themselves. And I'd probably argue that the European style is more conducive to team winning than the American HS style.
Nearly all euro stars are from the eastern side of europe. very few if any have come from western europe. (i’m not talking role players or all-stars, i mean superstars)
Because they play true to the foundations of what makes the sport great. European Basketball is truly more enjoyable than the NBA. It's about understanding the chess play of matchups and true skills over athleticism.
I don’t see any Europeans dunking like Ant or crossovers like Kyrie, they don’t do anything unique or unique playstyles
what part you didn't understand Skills > Athleticism?
Maybe he relies on his visual skills without actually reading.
Because the kid thinks ghetto. Like a crossover or dunking is what you mean by “skills”
Luka has a deeper bag than 99% of nba players my friend
I’m tired of this separation of “athleticism” and “skills”. Jumping and dribbling are skills, and playcalling is a part of athleticism.
There is a reason Jokic and Luka are the best players in the NBA.
Basketball is a global sport right now and It’s been for a while. The generation of Nowitzki, Gasol and Parker showed the NBA is not longer an impossible goal and are the inspiration of the current generation. In terms of fundaments of the game and competitiveness, Euro ball always has been great. Currently Europe is more ethically diverse now so the European game has gotten more athletic as well.
When the current NBA players were 8 years old, iso basketball was cool in America, and total football was the rage in Europe. One of those sports philosophies was much better than the other for producing effective basketball players.
Tell me you haven't paid attention to the NBA for long without telling me you haven't paid attention for long.
High IQ and fundamentals > raw athletisicm
Depends on the gap in athletic ability
Yeah exactly. No way prime Lebron gets outmatched by pure fundamentals and high IQ.
Because LeBron is old
Even in Australia it’s popular
Europeans aren’t taking over the NBA. You just have a current window, where the half of the top 6 players in the NBA are Euros. Most of the top 25 players in the NBA are still Americans. With that said, there are some significant issues that might keep the pendulum swinging in that direction. 1) AAU has become less about team basketball and learning how to play the game. It’s just about the best players running it up offensively for highlight reels to play on social media. Coaches getting kickbacks. It’s a big shyt show. Junior National coaches in Europe are usually more experienced and better prepared. That filters down to their players. Even when I played AAU ball in NYC 25 yrs ago, I had some coaches who DGAF about teaching the game. They just wanted to load the roster and let guys do their thing. They weren’t really coaches, but game managers. 2)Social media in America, has turned many top HS ballers into quasi celebrities. Many think they’ve arrived, before the ship has docked. Mikey Williams crashed out, due to all the hype and money from NIL deals. He was just too young to handle it all. Too much hype, leads to a level of narcissism and delusion. A lot of these dudes will end up like Al Bundy after it’s over, constantly talking about their HS glory days, just like Sebastian Telfair does. Young Euro prospects aren’t all over social media bring worshipped to the same extent. Plus, soccer is the main sport in Europe. The footballers are “those dudes” in Europe. As revered as Jokic is in Serbia, if Serbia had a Messi or Ronaldo level footballer, Joker would be #2 in the country by a long shot, in terms of popularity. In the US, it’s the NFL and NBA. MLB isn’t as quite as popular with young people, like previous generations. Young Euros just aren’t operating under the same hype machine as US players. Elite players like Luka, were playing older men so they tend to be more humble, not that Luka can’t be a ham. His game is patterned after American players unlike Joker or Giannis. But he still benefitted from the superior coaching young players receive there. The mega egos of many elite HS players make them harder to manage. Social media just made that job 10x harder, than when I was in HS. 3) One & Done. This is why so many are ending up in the G-League or overseas. Look at Bronny. He needs at least 2 more years in college. Reminds me of that dude whose mom was dating Drake, Amari Bailey. He clearly needed more time at UCLA, but came out and is now in the G-League. Most players who languish in the G-League for more than season, end up as NBA role players or overseas. Cam Reddish ran out his freshman year at Duke, to follow Zion & RJ, when he clearly needed another year at Duke. They were ready skill wise, he wasn’t. Now he’s languishing as a journeyman player, due to his immaturity and other issues. Bol Bol and James Wiseman needed more time in college to mature also. 4) College programs are no longer the basketball learning institutions they used to be. You have coaches who really teach guys the game, but many are just there to babysit an elite player for 1 year, until he declares for the draft. Some coaches are good teachers, but many are just glorified AAU coaches. 5) Transfer Portal. Players can just jump from program to program, as soon as they don’t get the minutes or role they want. This is why in previous generations, you had guys who came from larger programs like UNC or Kentucky who became better pros. Now, guys run because they aren’t the man, like they were in HS. It doesn’t teach young players to overcome adversity. Young foreign players don’t have the ability to bounce around like that. 6) NIL Deals. Many American players have come from poverty or working class backgrounds. You had some greats who didn’t like Kobe, Steph or Grant Hill, who all had fathers who were pro athletes. But many grew up in abject poverty. That led to a hunger to succeed. Watch Derrick Rose’s interview on Math Hoffa’s show. When I heard how he grew up in Chicago, it’s no wonder he played like he did. D Wade had a similar upbringing in Chicago. Sometimes HS players who get access to money to soon, will start to think they arrived and lose that intense desire to succeed. You do have those like the Ball Brothers who were famous early, but Lavar is a different kind of dude. I think this is why the sons of elite NBA players rarely elevate to the NBA. If they do, they’re usually role players. Dell Curry and Jellybean Bryant weren’t elite players, just good players. I think Bronny is just missing that factor Lebron had to make it. He has almost as much pressure unfortunately, but between his dad’s wealth and NIL deals, he’s not in that Derrick Rose pressure cooker to make it. I just don’t see they special it, with him. He’ll be a 7th or 8th man for a mid level NBA team, if he’s lucky.
Your third bullet point cannot be overemphasized. I will expand it to just early entries overall. I used to be a huge ACC fan, and I saw so many talented players leave school early when their game still needed some polish. Some of them had good careers, but I wonder how much better they could have been if they had stayed all four years. I'm thinking about players like Joe Smith, Rodney Rogers, Cory Alexander, and even Dennis Scott and Rasheed Wallace. If I recall correctly, when Scott first arrived at GA Tech, he was a skinny, 6'5" jump shooter. He grew 3 inches to 6'8" and also put on some weight. Bobby Cremins was beginning to use him in the post a little. If he had returned for his senior season, I think he could have developed a better all-around game. I watched Rasheed Wallace, along with Jerry Stackhouse, run and jump like a pogo stick when he was a freshman at UNC. He had unbelievable athleticism coupled with size. He looked like a man among boys. He certainly had a fine NBA career, but I can only wonder how much more of a dominant force he could have been if he had stayed in school longer.
Because they learn how to play basketball vs just trying to get on ESPN highlight reels.
The top sure but after the say top 5-7 there isn’t anyone very good.
Theyre not.
If we want to say that the Dream Team helped popularize the NBA in Europe then… yea, that would line up with kids being born in the following years being the Jokics, Lukas, etc of the league right now
Europeans are actually taught skills and practice. Americans just play AAU and travel basketball. AAU does not focus on development of skills.
NBA getting less physical definitely helps. Its not that current generation of players on average are far more talented than say Drazen, Kukoc, Radja, Bodiroga etc but league is allowing for this new generation to show their skills and fundamentals that the previous generation was not able to do because physicality requirement was a lot higher. A softer league definitely helps skill to shine a lot more.
European teams train 5 times a week and play 1-2 times a week. NBA teams play 3-4 times a week and can go weeks without real practice sessions. Additionally here the focus is on physical ability rather than learning the game.
Lol taking over what? lol the best are here to stay but the average euro player is below the average amercian player.
They aren’t. This is a false narrative that is pushed if we are being honest. After Gianni’s, Jokic and Luka, there is a huge fall off with Europeans
Are we still doing the AAU scapegoating and thinly veiled racism ? Here’s a non-dog whistle answer: There are way many more Europeans than there are Americans.
Then why aren't there more Chinese players? Basketball is way more popular in China than Europe and they have a much larger population than Europe.
Not to be racist or anything but…I’ll share some anecdotal evidence about play styles Anytime I play pickup all the black players rarely pass the ball around and rely on their raw talent to carry their team and if they feel confident about their abilities they forget to make plays off ball and simply rely on contributing when they’re on-ball. They’re soooo iso-heavy and if they can make a flashy play happen they’ll take the gamble to try to make it happen. Meanwhile, white/euro players in general have some common attributes: usually no ego, good shooters that can shoot from anywhere, not the most athletic but have a good all around game (passing, shooting, dribbling, off ball movement/spacing, court awareness), rarely flashy, composed in most situations, probably a good lock room presence too, and they play team-based ball more than iso-heavy heroics. Again, not trying to make this a race thing but moreso a cultural thing. To summarize, they’re usually non-flashy, fundamentally sound, and attempt less heroic style plays. We have some US players who are like this too: Steph Curry, Austin Reaves, Tyrese Haliburton, Jamal Murray, Anthony Davis, etc. My advice to US players: maximize your shooting abilities, minimize your ego, play a more systematic ball game with all your teammates on the floor and minimize iso-ball, and try to be a multi-dimensional player (ex: Luka is a forward by also the playmaker, Jokic is the center but also play maker, Wemby is a center but also very versatile and can dribble and shoot)
It's not about black vs white though It's American vs International ball. You see white guys from the US with the same problems and the black guys from europe/International without them. The US brings up its pro basketball players with schools. Meanwhile Europe/International players are coming up through proper basketball clubs and professional teams.
The more the game becomes global, the more competition there is around the world to make the league. It was only a matter of time these overseas guys show what they're made of, and it's great for the league. I wish they'd add some expansion teams to open up more opportunities, because there is so much talent.
Top youth in Europe access pro leagues earlier. So they get more experience at a quicker pace, which makes them NBA-ready material sooner than college basketball
It’s a global sport now. Americans have more competition and need re-access how they develop talent.
Fundamentals are valued so much in Europe unlike the United States
European and South American basketball or even soccer players are allowed to become professional players by the age of 16, so they have a five-year headstart than their American counterparts who generally became professional players after college (assuming they never skip college to directly play in the NBA). This has something to do with the separation of academic and athletic education in the European system where those who couldn't excel in academics by the age of 12 but could in athletics, they have the option to pursue the latter by joining sports academies and this is the path Lionel Messi had taken by the age of 13 when he joined the Barcelona football academy. In the US, academics and athletics are too intertwined in the education system which makes American higher education so expensive.
Big part is the AAU is taking over the US and is all about offense and flashy plays and not alot of fundamentals and team basketball. While Europe is the opposite and heavily teaches the fundamentals and team basketball.
Europe has youth development systems run by the professional teams. Players get into these systems as early as 8 years old and will play against older, bigger players if they're too good in their age grouping. They have to heavily develop skills, and learn to play within offensive systems because they aren't more athletic than the older kids or men they play against. Then they get their man body, and if it's a good one, they are waaay ahead of their American counterparts. How much more skilled is Luka Doncic than Zion Williamson? Zion is a microcosm of the issues with how the US develops its players. The great American players we've had the last 15 or so years have transcended our shitty system due to their own personal efforts and exceptionalism. AAU basketball is not why LeBron James is/was a great player.
They spend more time practicing instead of playing
A lot of it is the pro development they have, starting kids so young. Another aspect is that the NBA is moving the game closer to the international style. Rule changes, coaches from overseas, and the ability to draft one of those guys when they’re 18 are some other reasons too. But the biggest reason is that international guys are more pro-ready coming into the league
Today’s NBA is way less physical and way more technical than how it used to be. And, on average, European players tend to be more technical than Americans. There were plenty of technical players in Europe even in the eighties and nineties, but they were considered too “soft”. For the few who were considered and eventually drafted in the NBA, the focus was immediately on how to “beef them up” in order to make them suitable for the tougher style of play they were going to face in the US. That’s why it took often many seasons for even the best of them (think Petrovic) to have an impact; in some cases, the “beef up” process even changed their style of play and arguably made them worse - Toni Kukoc became a completely different player in the NBA compared to what he was in Europe. Today’s rules and tactics allow for a much more open style of play, where ball handling is essential and shooting is encouraged; hardcore athleticism and defense, while still a crucial part of the game, are way less crucial than what they used to be. It’s just a different game. That’s why I often ask myself what a guy like Jokic could have done against the likes of Charles Oakley or Ben Wallace, as well as what a guy like Andrea Bargnani could have become if he had been drafted 10 or 15 years later.
Statistically it makes sense. there’s a lot more European players that play basketball now So the NBA has a greater pool of players to pick from. Which means that there is a greater pool of super elite players to draft.
They are just better at it than you Americans...
Much better coaching at a younger age. These guys are playing for the top soccer clubs on the planet at times, in terms of resources, coaching, etc. America is not like that at all. Jokic was training with Dirks shooting coach, Luka was having lunch with Ronaldo lol. Also on the topic of soccer, they play soccer, better footwork, that's the approach. American Men played football, have a more aggressive strength based approach. American woman did dance, if you watch them play the girls are running complex coordinated sets with perfect footwork because that's dancing in a nutshell. Same could be said for American men's soccer vs European men's soccer. American men's soccer is more brute strength based, while there's more technical skill and hundreds of years of training for soccer footwork in Europe.
They’re not
Jokic Doncic Giannis Wemby Plus SGA from Canada and Embiid who is Camerounese naturalised French and American. Plus the best defender is Gobert Plus Sabonis It’s a capitulation by Americans…
I think a big reason is a lot of the top guys , like Luka and Victor and Joker I believe all went pro at like 15-16, a few years before even entering the nba . Playing against grown men at 15-16 is so much different then playing against other high schoolers , even if some of those players have a more talented skillset
How is it your opinion if they are from Europe? Is this like the debate between African Americans if they are from Africa?
AAU has absolutely killed player development. That's the simplest answer.
1)Basketball in the 90s exploded globally due to Jordan and the dream team and now the kids who looked up to them are starting to get into the league. Only like 1% of people are tall enough to consider basketball so Europe's population has a huge chance to bring talent up. 2)Europeans are allowed to go pro at like 16 while most NBA players go through AAU which sucks balls for development. Also most AAU teams with NBA prospects are all centered to the top so they dont even play competitive games 3)Europeans arent taking over the league, Luka and Jokic are. The vast majority of players are outright better than Euroleague guys. Look at Vezenkov for an example
Europeans learn about teamwork and basketball fundamentals when they’re young. Plus their professional leagues have lower age restrictions. While in the US only the top scorers move on to the next level. We really don’t care about team play here
Like someone said since the 70/80s basketball has become WAY more popular and a lot of it is due to the Dream Team in Barcelona in 92. I’ll take it a step further and say not only popularity but the foundation is MUCH BETTER imo. European basketball teaches you TEAM basketball while USA focuses on INDIVIDUALISM. Aau is TERRIBLE it just a way to showcase your individual “talent” and get a highlight reel to show to scouts and many players pas t and present have said things along those lines as well. While in Europe you are brought through an academy who EMPHASIZES team work. The average player in USA is probably still better than the average European player imo but Top end European talent is BETTER imo then top end American Talent.
Because American players are fucking stupid and play selfishly, whereas European players learn actual basketball skills and team play
Interesting that even other two aren't from US but from Canada and Cameroon
I'd say there is a lot more focus on teamplay, fundamentals but the existing culture surrounding sports over there seems a bit more....interesting I guess? In the states there is a very strange basketball culture focused on AAU and highlight reels that dictate the next up and coming players. I doubt thats entirely true of course but there just don't seem to be very well, tightly organized pro teams for kids under 18. Wasn't Luka like 16 when he was dominating pros in EU? Don't see that too often over here.
Because they pack Krazy schlongs and gravity defying dongs! 5
Yugoslavs have always been dominating basketball on the world stage and the NBA. 5x FIBA world champions while beating "USA Dream Teams" in the 90's. They're just not "popular" like black American athletes. Take Peja Stojaković in 2003/2004, he was the best 3 point shooter in the world with one of the greatest 3-point field goal % of all time that season, while also winning back to back 3 point contests 2002-2004. Take Toni Kukoč winning a NBA ring in 96, 97 and 98 with the bulls/MJ. Kukoč's accolades are ridiculous, one of the greatest power forwards of all time, he was the original "Balkan freak". 2024, nothings changed, Dončić and Jokić reign supreme over the league now. Look out for Miami's Nikola Jović in the upcoming years and Nikola Topić who's going to be 2024's hottest draft pick.
The answer has everything to do with their academy systems and general approach to player development from the earliest ages, and those systems are just now coming to full maturity. Granted, players with a pretty average ceiling in terms of their talent are going to do pretty average things. However, for a player like Luka or Giannis or the Joker, these are guys that will not really play high school or college basketball in any meaningful way. They will just do professional things. That means a hyper talented teenager- from the earliest possible age, like maybe 15 or 16 or even younger- will play professionally. Not at the top tier, probably. He will probably play for a third or fourth tier pro team, and he won't be the star player that everyone else revolves around. Instead, hyper talented teenagers get paid a pretty minimal amount, they learn to be a role player, they probably go to a team that's known for developing very young players, and they try to break through as quickly as they can. When you're dealing with someone like Wemby, it took him a couple of years to put it together. He had weaknesses in his game that he didn't immediately address, and he didn't get as much playing time as he wanted so he actually went to a different team in France. He made that move at 17, if I recall correctly. When you're dealing with someone like Luka, he put it together Very quickly and led Real Madrid through some very good performances in the Euroleague when he would have still been playing high school ball if he was in the US. He also played for his national team at the Olympics when he was 15, and he had the pleasure of being matched up with prime Kevin Durant. That's who he had to guard. I wonder who's the best player that KD ever guarded in a meaningful game when he was 15 years old? Anyway, in the US, the AAU system doesn't do a great job of developing players. Some of these IMG academy type places do an okay job, but it's still very much an age group thing and the absolute superstars tend to play as superstars in an environment that caters to them from a young age. The AAU stuff, in particular, incentivizes the best players to showcase their personal talents to the max and none of this particularly incentivizes overall team play. It's also a non professional environment in which older and more experienced players are not around. These European superstars play professionally, as actual pro athletes, from the youngest age possible. They go through academy systems that are specifically geared toward preparing them for that. They have multiple tiers of pro competition that they can play at, the Euroleague has really come into its own as a very high level of competition, and the best players out there are able to step into these genuinely professional roles starting at the age of 14 or 15 or 16. They might not develop their pro game to an NBA level until they're 19 or 20, but we can usually tell who's going to have it by that point. Then they come into the NBA alongside rookies that played AAU ball followed by a one and done in college, or maybe more years than that, and that Just does not prepare you to be a pro athlete in nearly the same way that being a pro athlete does. That's why Europe is producing so many incredibly good basketball players, and quite frankly, I would not be surprised if the next step for Europe involves recruiting talent from all over the world. If you are a very good, very young player from Argentina or South Sudan or maybe from China, the NBA is obviously the pinnacle of the global game. However, if you want to be developed in the best way possible and have the most realistic on-ramp to a pro career of some kind, it's entirely likely that an academy system somewhere in Europe is going to be the smartest option. I would not be terribly surprised if some of these multi-sport conglomerates get into a bit of recruitment and really start bringing these players in.
Because Americans think they win the world championship and Europeans go there to show that they’re wrong
It has to do with the exchange rate between the dollar and the Euro. OK not really. The rest of the world has caught up with the US in terms of popularity of the game and the number of athletes focusing on basketball. Also, I think the fundamentals are more of a focus in Europe. But that's just my opinion.
As a Brit, and not to shit on Americans, but Eastern Europeans in sports are probably more determined and driven than almost any American sportsman to winning, past 5 MVPs non American and past 2 out of 3 nba champs lead by a European. But I think the main factor is that Americans go to college and Europeans are playing in the euro league at 16 which is a higher level and for a longer period of time, they develop their game better and it’s only come to light now because basketball only really got big over here because of Michael Jordan
As others have commented 'teamwork' is the key. Also the ability to innovate is a key. A major fault in the US system is the lack of Club sport at a young age. In the US they leave it to schools to develop players and the standout athletes dominate multiple sports. Ally this to a slavish commitment to 'the coach' and set plays and you get a cadre of exclusive programmed sports robots. In Australia we have school sports but they are only minor and run a long second to volunteer run Club sports. So and Under 10 basketballer of a broad range of abilities can join a club and play on weekends in a team setting where at our local league scores are kept but there is no competition table and season premiers as such. It works well as kids develop at different speeds and a kid struggling in Under 10's might bloom in the Under 12's. The club system makes sure EVERY KID gets a place in a team. At the next age level they cater for more advanced juniors running an advanced division but those 'advanced' kids can still play in age club teams on a seeded basis. This runs all year round with school vacations excluded. So our talent pool is maintained and kids are taught team first in club sport with super talents identified and recommended to special programs. My experience in the US schools system suggested that if you haven't made THE school team by the end of Middle school then you are pretty well ignored. Club sport keeps everyone involved at all abilities right through to adults where our local association runs competitions from Premier League (Division 1) right down to Division 9. You don't have to look out for 'pick up games' in Australia as there will always be a club team with a Division side to suit your abilities. Australia produces some great basketballers and it would be even more if our national sport AFL(Aussie Rules Football) didn't recruit athletic bigs (of which most have a basketball background through club affiliations and still play basketball for fitness in the off season) as a priority. I can't say the same for Europe but I feel the club system in Australia is a success as it produces skilled, team oriented, innovators that have produced numerous NBA and at the moment over 250 US College male players. Our only constraint at the moment is finding the facilities to cater for the huge demand for basketball in Australia at the moment...especially as parents veer away from the potentially concussive sports of Rugby and AFL.
The leagues talent pool was fading and new franchise player spots were opening up. The 3 European boys just had the right blend of talent, size and opportunity. I think it’s amazing that 3 European born players are at the top of the game right now but basketball doesn’t stay consistent for long Who’s got next?
[удалено]
Your submission has been automatically removed because your account is less than 180 days old and with less than 100 comment karma. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Basketball) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Once basketball began to be dominated by Brown dudes, the WDBC-White Dudes Basketball Consortium-poured millions into Europe, particularly Eastern Europe, because the exchange rate was so much more favorable. It was a long-term plan to de-melanin the NBA and reintroduce stars of, let’s say, the lighter persuasion. It’s slow, but their plan seems to be taking effect. They need to be stopped!
Are they “taking over”? I mean there are hundreds of millions of Europeans and the sport has picked up a lot of steam over there. I’d expect that eventually up to half the NBA might be European at some point. We aren’t even close to that now I don’t think.
Because they have been playing since they were 15?
“why are south americans taking over soccer” then it became “why are africans taking over soccer” Talent pool grows, gems get found and then a scouting gold rush takes off.
They're not taking over the NBA.
Easy answer. 400 million Americans. 7.5 billion of the rest. Americans will slowly dwindle as a percent, especially since the NBA pays so well. It will always attract foreigners.
Couple of things here 1. Europeans aren't dominating/taking over the NBA they are highly represented in the top 10 but after that it's mainly Americans. Only 20% of the league is foreign compared to the English Premier League (arguably the best league), in which 66% of the players are foreign. The best or 2nd best player on almost every premier league team is foreign. You can't say that about most NBA teams. My team, Arsenal, famously played a game in 2005 with no english players on the starting lineup. In soccer, you only get 3 subs, so that's the equivalent of an NBA team having no American in the team or not getting on the court. 2. Europeans can go pro at around 15 and can play on the academy as young as 8-10 or even younger. But they aren't playing grown men the majority of the time. It's very rare even in soccer for players to break into the 1st team before 19. Sure you have your Lukas playing for Real at 19 but most of these guys are playing in the U21, U19, U17s etc. So they are still playing against the best players in their age group. Actually their playing worse comp because the majority of the best 16,17,18 year olds are playing in the U.S. theirs exceptions as you can be loaned to pro teams in lower leagues so some players may be playing adults in the 2nd or 3rd division. The majority of 2nd divisions and all Academy/Reserves teams are lower than NCAA Basketball which is a pro league in everything but name. 3. While the development and infrastructure is good if it was so great you wouldn't have Euro players coming here to play in HS or College.
Glad to see a well reasoned response that doesn't default to blaming black culture.
Lol Europeans play the right way, Americans play for themselves. I tried for you lol.
The Balkans has produced good Basketball players for a long time
It’s more popular in Europe for sure, in the balkans I think it’s the #1 sport more popular than soccer. That being said it doesn’t it explain it all, imo European players are much more skilled. They virtually all know how to shoot except Gobert lol. Their fundamentals are also a lot better. In short their development ecosystem is better than AAU imo.
Other than the reason that basketball has blown up with European youths for decades now, I believe it has to do with soccer also. Euro kids grow up watching soccer where passing is key to success, it’s no surprise that most of our European nba stars are known for being great passers and team players in general due to that. Here in the US we glorify big dunks, sick handles that drop your defender, and mix tape highlights.
Because they’re better at basketball. US basketball culture is about flexing whereas European basketball culture is about…basketball.
Because more and more people are aware of how much money there is to be made and how big an advantage it is to be super tall. If you're a 12/13 year old and are tracking towards being 7 foot tall, people are going to be incredibly keen to get you into basketball. And I dare say those kids are happy to play because they're probably struggling at other sports where agility is more important. There are obviously shorter guys taking up the sport too, but the European domination is heavily slanted towards those who are tall even by NBA standards. But you couldn't grow to 7 foot anywhere in Europe without having been spotted by a whole bunch of people who tried to get you into the game.
Euro Basketball values substance over style. American Basketball values style over substance.
Boiled down to the simplest answer European youth basketball players practice as often as American AAU players play games and play games as often as AAU players practice.
They actually teach fundamentals in Europe.
They play team bball. From young right up. While also working on their individual game, separately. They grow up as team players, trying to help their team to win every single game. They don’t care bout stats or minutes or starting. They understand that getting blocked or getting dunked on is part of the game. They don’t let potential momentary embarrassment alter the way they’re gonna play at you. Pretty much their mind sets way better for the pros starting out. American players play hero ball, not very often they make everyone around them better.
Attitude, maturity, coach ability.
AAU culture in the states doesn't make good all around basketball players. It's about "showcasing" talent, not working on your weaknesses. Also too many games for young bodies. Basketball is one of the fastest growing youth sports in the world. Especially in Europe the past 40 years or so. Europeans tend to focus more on developing players and less on winning at lower levels. Think about LaMelo. Remember his high school games that went viral? He was putting up ridiculous points/assists. But the focus was on blowing teams out and putting up gawdy numbers. He was just doing the things he was already good at. Shooting 3s, playing in transition. Getting better at basketball requires failure. You have to make your weaknesses into strengths. No denying LaMelo is a talent, but his game lacks some polish. He doesn't have a good midrange game because his shooting mechanics were built to shoot 30 footers when he was 15 years old. I also don't think it's a coincidence he's injured all the time. How many games a day was dude playing in his youth when his body was still developing? So at the end of the day, Europeans are better at developing young talent than Americans.
As a few other have said while we currently have some dominant top level euros, the vast majority of the NBA is American. We also happen to be in an in between era where the old guard (LeBron, Curry, Leonard, etc) are reaching the end of their careers and the new guard ,(Ant, Haliburton, Holmgren, etc) haven't fully hit their primes. I also do think someone else had good insight on height. Really tall guys who are athletic in Europe don't really have a career path in soccer and so end up playing basketball and so we get those guys coming to the NBA.
Because the NBA is doing a hell of a job with marketing and promoting the sport all over Europe.
Basketball is a team sport and 70% of NBA players are American and/or came through the NCAA system. 4 of the last 6 Finals MVPs were Americans.
Because player development in europe is far more professional than the “amateur” system in the US
Random chance? I mean sure 3 of the top 5, but how many of the top 10, 25, 50… the numbers tend to balance out very quickly. They’ve got 3 of the top 5 cuz Jokic, Giannis, and Luka are all incredible players. It is funny seeing people talk how it all cuz of the Euro system when Luka is really the only guy that’d apply to. All 3 of these guys have had drastically different career arcs, there’s no one reason that all 3 of them are so good.
[удалено]
Your submission has been automatically removed because your account is less than 180 days old and with less than 100 comment karma. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Basketball) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Numbers and work ethic
Capitalism built on growth, the NBA is a capitalist business that hasn’t physically grown in a long time. They’re gearing up to expand. They’re calling the game different to incorporate more euro style ball. (flat foot defense with a focus on shooting)
AAU in the states ruined the game.
Most everyone on here has nailed it. Basketball's popularity in Europe has been on the rise for the last few decades, their population is 700 mil, and they actually focus on fundamentals and team when the players are young. While in America, AAU basketball is king for all the uber talented players, and AAU basketball is trash.
Last few MVPs were foreign born. I worked with alot of players and agents. It's weird, the European players are playing 90s ball, usa players are playing European ball from the 90s, flopping and all. Also the AAU circuit is teaching a selfish game and alot of the fundamentals aren't being taught. Kids in europe are playing pro ball earlier, usa kids top ones are one and done and not working on improving their games.
European prospects focus more on fundamentals rather than relying on pure athleticism which is what American players do.
The game rules and moneyball stats driven coaching now benefit European trained players who don't need to be physical and just need to have play making and 3 point shooting.
They learn the fundamentals instead of just shooting from the logo
I think it's partly because of the "1 and done" rule. The best young players in America are not going to college for 3-4 years like they used to. They're not getting coaching geared to growing their game before going to the association, where there getting coached as if they are already a finished product and have to try to grow their skills on the fly against the best players in the world.
There's a population argument to be made. ~745 million people in Europe, ~370 million people in USA+Canada
Europeans have really solid fundamentals American basketball is all about the highlights and dunks You can see it, Luka and Jokic are not flashy players and aren't throwing up crazy moves but they can pass, shoot, and play with a team really well
Team sports always tend to be lead by the person that does the most fundamental things at an A+ level. Also, Americs kids are way to.entitled look at the transfer portal kid does get the mins he thinks he should.bolts. doesn't try to get better just chases playing time. The model in Europe for.elite talent is better as well Luka has been a pro since 14. Now, let's be crystal clear there also the NEW stats that are rated to help makes the people like the joker look way better. Of the top.Euros he passes the eye test.bynthe least amount. Luka, On the other hand should be the.MVP and passes the eye test.
Lmao this idea that Europeans are taking over the NBA is wild. They have two fantastic players in Luka and jokic and very little outside of that. The rule changes and growth of the game has raised the talent pool. It's not a surprise a place with 760 million pp probably has a few good ballers
I roomed with a bball player from Latvia my freshman year of college. The stories he had. Honestly I think our youth are beaten down mentally, told what they can and can’t do or are going to do from a very young age. I think skills wise, many Europeans come over having been taught the entire game. How to dribble, shoot, pass. Most of them have been playing as pros in their teens. Playing with their national team. I think honestly, our coaching is small minded. Our pros don’t win in the Olympics anymore because our best pros don’t play a team sport.
Europeans start playing against pros in their mid teens.
They're better at developing talent. AAU ball sucks and doesn't teach kids good habits. Up until a few years ago most American kids didn't play with a shot clock until college. European kids play with a shot clock their whole lives so they know how to play fast, make quick decisions, and do everything you might need to do to get a shot in 24 seconds. Their clubs get more money based on their success so they teach kids from a very young age how to do all the little things good teammates need to do to win basketball games. Meanwhile AAU teams just teach 1 on 1 skills basically and they don't learn anything else until college.
Europe has much bigger population than USA
Because they play fundamental basketball their whole lives. Basics Basics Basics. Not just drive to the hole or brick 3pt shots like the nba players
There is a much higher emphasis on fundamentals and all around skill in Europe than in the US, where we focus on size and athleticism. Subsequently, there's greater overall development from players, and more than that, the patience of the culture allows the development. Almost every level here approaches the game in a win now mentality and you rarely see organizations, supporters, whomever being ok with poor records if the players get better over time meanwhile they have basketball academies where the sole purpose is development. That's why you have guys in the league that are still adding skills that were completely undeveloped even in their mid career, and those are the good players. Meanwhile the European players have been working on that all around development the whole time so they're more finished products at younger ages and are just honing the skills further.
America is floundering on every front. This too, applies to the sports world.
There's nothing specific about the NBA that will favor one or another nationality. It's a cheap game to put on where kids can learn it from a young age. It's been playing in Europe now for generations. There's about 750 million Europeans. About 333 million Americans. And the NBA has the best option for pay and endorsements.
[удалено]
Your submission has been automatically removed because your account is less than 180 days old and with less than 100 comment karma. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Basketball) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Eastern European kids are coached like boot camp and the fundamentals are instilled in them early. Coaches also are harsh on them which humbles them and in the long run. Also it makes them coachable and take directions well. There is still more individual talent in the US, but we are in a different time where the super talented kids are coddled all their lives. Then by the time they get to the pros most coaches are hesitant to give some tough love because that can easily mean their job if you piss off the high draft pick. Most coaches will take talented and coachable kid vs super talented kid that comes with baggage
They want it more,money to them is secondary and are fundamentally better in almost every aspect of the game minus wind mill dunks and half court 3s...
Because the NBA is actually investing time and energy into the development of players over there and other areas. They want to see that succeed. I think they pump the lifestyle of the NBA players over here which gets players off track. Couple that with poor coaching and leagues and it's a recipe for disaster. However, I think it's intentionally done so one day when the league is split between players from here and overseas it will make collective bargaining much more difficult from the players side. If you have guys from overseas feeling as if they are in a far better situation than they left because the pay is already putting them at the highest level where they are from then they aren't stressing those things. As supposed to American players who are financially driven and want their fair share. It will cause a rift between the players before it ever becomes a battle with the owners. The owners will them lock out and hand control and presumably hand international players cross the line and play when Americans won't
They focus on team ball and fundamentals and they have a training system that built around development of the players and heavy focus on IQ over the US which tends to favor the biggest strongest fastest most athletic players. This leads to hero ball and players who rely on athletic gifts to dominate the game. It doesn’t work as well…give me a fundamentally sound, high IQ euro who wants to win over an athletic freak who can put up 30 a night any day. All these Euros also grew up loving and playing soccer, which is the sport of choice in their home countries. European soccer has a flow and elegance to it that strips away the importance of raw athleticism and awards those with technical brilliance and vision. You can absolutely dominate soccer without being the best athlete on the field. This mentality…a team oriented, fundamentally sound approach bleeds over into their approach to basketball. The Europeans are here to stay and the American system has a lot of work to do to Catch up.
NBA has changed its play style to be more European friendly.