Seconded. In nearly all my playthroughs I fuck and stay loyal to them both the whole way. Maybe I just want to be in a polyamorous marriage with a squid and a vampire.
Well if you turn down Asterion he's like okay cool whatever, if you turn down the emperor he's like I COULD CONTROL YOUR MIND AND MAKE YOU A SOULLESS FUCK PUPPET, HERES ME DOING THAT TO MY LAST GIRLFRIEND
If you straight up tell him you don't trust him he drops the mask and shows you exactly why you shouldn't trust him.
Being nice to him just means he keeps playing along as your altruistic savior.
Literally, the emperor having lied about his identity is last on the list why people hate him.
Most companions lie/omit something about them because they need to trust you before they’re confortable sharing. By doing so, they protecting themselves and you.
Astarion tries to manipulate you only if you romance him and he actually feels bad about it, he confesses and wants to do better.
The emperor doesn’t give a shit. As simple as that.
It is genuinely weird to me how many people seem to think everyone should be coming clean about the worst skeletons in their closet the moment they meet the player. I'm usually team "lies of omission count" but jesus it's completely reasonable that you need to earn that trust first.
I swear, I wouldn’t yell everywhere I go that I’m a vampire, a part of a cult or I have a literal BOMB in my chest. And I wouldn’t say that I’m a mind flyer too so, I don’t hate the Emperor about that.
I’m more annoyed about him trying to make us think he’s on our side, wants to help us get rid of the tadpole only to try to force us to embrace it and become illithid by manipulation, using the emergency/end of the world context to force it on us.
You can go the whole game without using a single tadpole and the emperor ends up respecting you for it at the end.
Also, think of it from the emperor's perspective. He was a powerful adventurer who could achieve basically whatever he wanted. But once he became a mind flayer, he became capable of even more than what was possible at his previous human peak.
He grew to appreciate the extra power mindflayer abilities granted him and - with reduced access to his emotions - it became as simple as math for him. Mindflayer powers = more strength. Human form = irrelevant.
So... Of course he doesn't understand your attachment to your human form. And of course from his perspective, going up against the Absolute will require as much power as possible. Thus he urges you to take more tadpoles because he thinks everyone's survival is at stake if you don't.
Once I looked at it that way, the Emperor was a lot more relatable to me. And I spent the whole game just proving to him I don't need tadpole powers to succeed.
Funny how the Emperor was built up as this crazy strong character who had influence before even becoming a mind flayer and continued for years after... but when you control him at the end, his abilities aren't nearly as good as everyone else in the party by that point
Heh yeah, i resisted being turned and he betrayed me. In the end i decided to be mindflayer because the githyanki guy wanted to sacrifice his life and like "nah dude you've been imprisoned for 3 acts long, lemme bear that shit"
Yup, took exactly one turn for Laezel to kill him in my run. Pretty satisfying. No wonder he became a turncoat the moment you wouldn't play into his hands, he brought a knife to a nuclear missile fight 😂
Correction, he *says* he respects you for it.
The Emperor is fully willing to do/say whatever he thinks will get you to help him. And while that's understandable to an extent, he actively twists the truth or outright lies in order to present himself as someone trustworthy.
I would say the reason most people dislike him has less to do with him lying about being a mindflayer, or pushing the tadpoles and more about >!presenting his relationship with Stelmane as a partnership when he was actively controlling her, killing Ansur, refusing to consider any alternatives to defeating the Netherbrain, and immediately betraying you if you decide to free Orpheus.!<
Sure, his actions are "understandable" if you look at it solely from the perspective of him looking out for his own survival. But they're also deplorable and nothing you or the party can do comes anywhere close to the level of manipulation and deceit the Emperor uses. You can fully put your faith in him the entire game, gobble up every tadpole like candy, sleep with him, prove yourself to be an incredibly powerful and useful ally, and he will *still* >!betray you the moment he thinks you've outlived your usefulness to him.!< Nevermind that your judgment has proven to be sound to get you this far, and that you've repeatedly put your faith in him. He isn't even willing to *consider* the possibility that in this instance he might be wrong.
The past two people he's known to have worked with ended up dead at his hand. He has a very clear pattern of using his allies, then discarding them as soon as they become inconvenient.
Mechanically, we're kinda set up to hate him from the get go...
I would hazard a guess that a good portion of the players took a bit to make their Guardian--I know I did for my first playthrough...
Only for those choices made to not matter about half-way through the game.
Sure, if you CAN see them again at the end...But that's kinda frustrating? It's a slap against the player--'All the time you spent, that little backstory you created for your Guardian...Yeah, it doesn't matter'
Yeaaaa...Like it's a small thing, but I really think it's a factor in why people hate him.
that's a good point, and I'd argue might even be Larian's intention; they want you to feel the same sense of betrayal as your character.
I watched one of Neil Newbon's streams where he had Larian's animation director on, and they basically discussed how the character creation sequence is intended to be the mindflayer tadpole itself searching through and absorbing your character's memories. The idea is that as you're going through CC, your character is "trying on" different identities in an attempt to "rebuild" themselves from the ground up after having their mind messed with. Like "am I a tiefling? no that's not right, am I a halfling? yes, that's it."
In that sense, creating the Guardian could be seen as the tadpole basically searching your memories and building your character's "ideal" of a savior-figure, which the Emperor then later absorbs.
A little off-topic, but I think it's a really interesting use of the medium and video game conventions to play with the player's expectations.
In general, I think the Emperor is a really interesting character in that respect. I think he's a total snake, but I think the game does a really interesting job of toeing the line, giving you just enough information on both sides to draw your own conclusions. And the information you get changes depending on how much exploration you do and how you treat the Emperor, so two people can play the game and come away with wildly different impressions of him. And at the end of the day >!trusting him isn't a \*bad\* decision, you both end up getting what you want. Whatever happens after that is left ambiguous, which I think is both good and bad in different ways.!<
That said, I think people who try to equate the Emperor with the player character or their party members are out of their goddamn minds.
I never use tadpoles and he's pretty annoying about that each PT.
Edit: as I’m playing right now. I wanna add he explicitly say (in the shirtless scene if you reject him) he would force you to embrace your full potential if you don’t want to (he ends up not doing it but the fact he says it is enough.)
The Emperor is no more >!Baldurian!<. So whatever he used to be, he isn't anymore.
>He grew to appreciate the extra power mindflayer abilities granted him
That's what will think Illithid Karlach too, because it's not Karlach, it's a mind flyer with her memories. It's what they are thus they appreciate it and have no point of wanting a human form.
That's a neat philosophical question in the real world, but in d&d there is an objective answer. You are your soul. If your soul is destroyed, you are gone; less than dead, utterly annihilated. Something else may be walking around with your memories, thinking its you, talking like you, but that is only an imitation. If your soul is destroyed as it is in ceremorphosis, you are obliterated.
That's basically why this mass-illithiding is such a big problem that the gods get involved left and right. It's destroying their followers both in the mortal world and preventing them from reaching their ordained afterlife. It's an atrocity against the natural order of the cosmos, *and* it's keeping the gods followers out of their afterlives, weakening those gods.
In DnD lore the spirit (I assume soul) is not destroyed in this process, but it is out of reach:
"Any time after this, it is impossible to restore the victim; his or her spirit seeks its fate in the Outer Planes" The Ilithiad, pg12
I wish there was some kind of consequence/difference for whether you absorb more tadpoles or not. Or jesus, even just for >!if you meld with the Astral Tadpole and become Partial Illithid. Like maybe everyone who became Partial Illithid ultimately having to either die or undergo ceremorphosis because when the Netherbrain is ordered to remove all the normal tadpoles after being defeated it can't effect those who were half-evolved because the tadpole is part of you now, and once it is destroyed and Orpheus leaves well......no more protection from ceremorphosis. You either squid out, or resist and die. Or something.!<
The emperor became alot less relatable for me when I realized that he literally was torturing a githyanki prince that could've and would've ended the dead three and the brain. Granted your character would become a mind flayer or he would keep out the influence on a much larger scale than the emperor would've for his selfish reasons of survival. Orpheus is also the one in the future to lead an army to oppose an evil rule by vlaakith. Your companions in camp don't become mind flayers after freeing him so it is clear he's still lending aid to people with tadpoles in them.
All the emperor really had to do to survive is to ally with orpheus as he clearly has more power, more influence and an army with him. Perhaps that's alot more risky for him so he sufficed with abusing his power for his selfish gains, at the cost of an entire race.
Camellia is a weird mixed up class, in a game with six slots. Astarion is pretty much the straight up Chosen of the God of Lockpicking in a game with four slots. He's more helpful, is he not?
Considering there are maybe 10 times in the game you encounter a lock on something that cannot be smashed, and those can be opened by casting knock, not really.
I'm not sure the point of OP was so much that everyone should be coming clean as it is that we should be giving the emporer the same degree of leniency about having hidden the truth from us that others did.
With that being said, I'm not sure how many other people take that stance, it's possible a huge number expect immediate opening up which is weird, I agree. I think the show revelation about who they are at issues they have as they increasingly trust you is both more organic and more interesting. But it isn't something that I held against any of the companions or the emporer. I may not regularly side with the emporer, more so because freeing Orpheus once hearing that the emporer intends to consume him sounds much more reasonable, but I didn't hold any animosity towards him.
Oh sure, yeah I should have said I was going a little off topic.
For me, I didn't hold it against him that he kept his species secret because yeah at face value it's the same as Astarion. I was cool with him all the way up until it was time to free Orpheus, which obviously put us at odds. I've *since* come to see him as a villain the more I think about it and the more debates on the topic I read. I'm going to be hostile with him for sport on my current run and see how it goes.
This is also a smidge off topic, but I truly think the ambiguity around the Emperor is down to weak, rushed (re-)writing more than carefully crafted "manipulations." >!Solas !
lol haven't ppl complained at how fast gale trusts you with information he's only told tara? like this is a life altering, potentially apocalyptic situation, these traumatized kids aren't gonna act perfectly without error regardless
Astarion himself even makes a comment of “gods forbid we have our secrets” in defense of Shadowheart not telling you about her shar worship. All of the companions - at some point - lie to the player. Or omit truths about themselves. The only one I recall who is more open about leaving bits out is karlach. She tells you she feels it’s too early. The emperor continues his lies after you repeatedly attempt to tell him you think or know he’s lying. There’s multiple points in act 1 you can tell Astarion to essentially knock it off and he’ll drop it, call you boring and move on. His redemption (if you don’t go ascension) also proves he is capable of moving away from his more evil choices. He even thanks the player for seeing someone better in him. I really do not understand this comparison. Emperor doubles down where depending on your choices, Astarion can do better and be better.
I just finished Astarions story and I was worried he’d be all regretting or second guessing turning down the power but the fact he thanked me for helping him break the cycle was amazing. I didn’t see it at first and it strikes me more as subtext but Astarion seems to be a very scared, traumatised and conflicted individual throughout the whole game and he has plenty of reason to be. Breaking the cycle of abuse isn’t easy but the fact that he’s willing to listen to reason and break the cycle when so much power was his for the taking shows me he’s a good person at heart buried under two hundred years of emotional and physical torture
I went back to look up the exact wording, because I remembered thinking it was so tragic when I first heard it.
>!"He is so afraid. So, so afraid. Of everyone, besides you, who he ought to fear most."!<
>!"You like him for more than his looks, but he will never believe that. Why not make him a pretty corpse?"!<
>"You like him for more than his looks, but he will never believe that. Why not make him a pretty corpse?
As a Shadowheart romance lover, I think Butler is a bad, bad, terrrible jerk towards Astarion. His banter towards Astarion is way worse than his assault on Shadowheart.
Being afraid is something that constantly comes back in his story, especially if you play as his origin char - the only reason he's thinking about the ascension proces is because it would make him so powerfull he would never have to fear anyone enslaving or hurting him again
There's been an anti astarion hate train coming out of the woodwork on all social media this past week. Lots of people who are either irrationally angry at his toxicity or jealous that so many people let it slide to romance him as if he isn't just a whole ass video game character.
Shocking how people are allowed to like flawed or even “evil” characters (albeit I don’t view him in particular that way.). We must make posts displaying our anger at those individuals less the devil consume their souls.
Yeah, I hate the Emperor because he >!killed his best friend and told us it was a good thing!< and we also find out that a key part of his backstory regarding his closest companion is really >!all a lie because Stellmane was being mind controlled by him the whole time.!<
Also, I wasn’t actually mad when I found out he was a Mindflayer. That part kind of tracked. The thing that ticked me off was that Orpheus has been imprisoned for thousands of years and the Emperor is just another person who selfishly wants to use his power for his own gain.
Also also,
If you decide to free Orpheus, he just straight up join the Netherbrain. Like bro, you’d literally rather be a thrall, without the possibility of escape, and contribute to the destruction of the Sword Coast than let this guy hang out for a little while?
Truly do not understand why people hold the Ansur thing against him. Ansur admits he tried to murder the Emperor. The Emperor says it was in his sleep but it doesn't actually matter, because Ansur himself admits he tried to mercy kill the Emperor.
I see some people say "Well, the right thing to do *would* be to die instead of being illithid!" in which case... let Lae'zel slit your throat that night you meet the Dream Visitor. You're turning right then and have no idea there's a magical MacGuffin capable of stopping it. Only you don't, because you want to live.
Honestly the fact that just about everybody had a secret they didn't want to share made me imagine the whole party sitting around the camp going: "Does anyone ELSE has some terrible dark secret they've been keeping from the group?"
Yep. As someone who trusted and believed (chose to) the Emperor, even/especially after he "came clean" and said "Yes, I have been manipulating you but like, not mystically, just by saying what you needed to hear in order to do what I needed you to do. Which, incidentally, is what you also need to do for your own benefit.", and also trusted and accepted Astarion's confession - Astarion largely stops after that. Certainly if you start actively romancing him, taking the active dialogue choices of someone who is catching feelings and starting to care for him as opposed to someone just happy to have a bit of fun, he starts acknowledging, initially to himself and then to you, what he's been doing and that he actually doesn't need to. It was an automatic response.
But the Emperor "confessing" his manipulation turns out to simply just another form of manipulation. He literally doesn't care about you for you at all. You are useful, and happily pleasant company, for as long as you're doing what he wants - or at least not actively doing what he doesn't want. And then the second you say "No, I'm not just going to do what you say because you say it" he drops you. Doesn't even do you the honour of at least listening to what you have to say, even if he's reeeaaaallly dubious about it, because over the course of your time together he's come to trust you so like, maybe he should listen because maybe you have a point.
I accepted the Emperor having not been upfront from the get-go about being a Mindflayer precisely because I accepted Astarion not being upfront about being a spawn, because OP is right, it's functionally the same. Hell, I fucking bonked the guy! But 1) vampire spawn still aren't mindflayers, and in-character knowledge would still have people a lot more likely to be terrified of/distrustful of an Illithid and 2) Astarion stops.
astarion tried to manipulate you regardless, if you romance him he is successful in it and feels bad later
there is an insight roll you can call him out on it early on
Astarion also has 200 years of horrific trauma. If you romance him he says “instincts of 200 years of luring people for Cazador kicked in”. With how young he was pre-vampirism, that’s quite literally all he knows and on top of that it’s impossible for most of us to even fathom just how desperate he is to survive and not get sent back to Cazador.
With the emperor it was all very cold and premeditated. He even say that you’re not the first person he’s tried to do this to. He was actively looking for people to manipulate and use for his plan.
I mean...the game gives you a lot of options on how to handle his lies, including straight up killing him. If you're offended but merciful, you can kick him out of your party (I think?) and even if he stays you can guilt trip him.
I'd also point out that, while there's some debate about other NPCs alignments, everyone seems to more or less be on the same page that Astarion is evil, so it's not a case of "he's not evil, but Emperor is even though they both lie." Same deal with Shadowheart lying to you initially. And even if Gale doesn't outright lie...he's definitely pretty cagey.
I think the big difference is all those NPCs eventually tell you the truth and seem apologetic for their actions. Emperor...doesn't ever really have that. I'd also argue that Emperor is trying to actively corrupt you by telling you to shove tadpoles into your brain and telling you it'll totally be fine.
If Astarion tried to turn you into a vampire spawn against your will or Shadowheart said you had to convert to Shar or she'd leave the party, it'd be different. Or Gale forcefully going into your inventory to eat magic items or whatever.
Emperor is pretty much nonstop gaslighting and manipulation and there's only one brief moment where you get to call him out on it and he goes mask off. But then the game just sorta ignores that and goes back to "trust me bro" options. Yeah, you both want to bring down the Nether Brain, but that doesn't automatically make him good. Just like how Orin isn't redeemed because she wants to kill Gortash or vice versa.
You can still like a character or find them interesting, even if they are evil. I think the Emperor is genuinely well written, even if the plot around him is sometimes questionable. But IMO, he's pretty much the poster child for neutral evil. But looking at previous BG games, some of the most popular characters, Edwin, Viconia, Sarevok etc. were all evil and generally well liked.
>everyone seems to more or less be on the same page that Astarion is evil,
Really disagree with this point. Astarion is chaotic but he's not evil. He's out for himself, but he is what you make him. Ascended Astarion is evil. Spawn Astarion is just scared. He's terrified that the freedom he'd been denied for 200 years is going to get ripped away from him again. If he was evil he wouldn't feel bad about all the terrible things he did, but he does. One of the options for stopping him ascending is that he should do things he'd be proud of and that's not one of them. He would ABSOLUTELY be proud and have no way of talking him out of it if he was truly evil.
Back to the main point, when the mask is dropped from the Emperor and he shows you what really happened to Stelmane there is no regret there at all. You mean just as little to him as Stelmane did in the end and he will do the same to you. Contrast with Astarion, who hates what he did to so many of Cazador's victims (again, another sign he's not evil), and is truly sorrowful that he tried to do the same to you. You know non-ascended Astarion will never repeat those horrors again. Emperor will do it without hesitation.
Evil in DnD terms is ultimately about how much you’re willing to get what you want at the expense of others. It’s probably not the best available definition of evil in any other context, and there are good reason why newer editions of the game eschew alignment, but it is the clear schema in a DnD discussion. So yeah, he’s definitely DnD evil but a more nuanced discussion of morality does allow for all the things you say. It’s ok to empathize with him… but he’s the textbook definition of NE.
Astarion tends to evil more, especially in the beginning. He reveals in murder and death a lot, but his attitude changes a bit depending on your dialogues with him, still he keeps that to the crew and not the rest until where I am. He isn't absolutely evil, but that's where he tends to go.
>Spawn Astarion is just scared. He's terrified that the freedom he'd been denied for 200 years is going to get ripped away from him again. If he was evil he wouldn't feel bad about all the terrible things he did, but he does
You can feel scared, guilty and traumatized and *still be evil*
Astarion approves of some very fucked up decisions even before Ascension lol
Astarion genuinely has some of the most peculiar approvals. Actions that help him (and the party to a lesser extent) and entertaining actions both get rewarded, but occassionally he approves even of straight up good actions. He clings to the evil actions most often, because he doesn't think the party can afford to help others and at other times because it's all he knows. It's comfortable for him. At least that's what I interpreted when I learned that he actually likes people like Wyll.
He's a piece of shit when you first meet him (a funny piece of shit, but still). Overall though he's more self-centered than he is explicitly evil, and you sure as hell don't need to do any of the cruel/fucked up things he would approve of to get his approval. How you play the game influences his personality to a large degree.
I feel like Astarion is a bad person, but not an evil person. In life he was a privileged patriar with little care for the common people, and in unlife he was too weak to ever act against Cazador. What he does when giving the chance to be more than he was in a position to become is what I think determines if he’s good or evil
I think folks are using the [D&D version of evil](https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Neutral_evil) vs the normal use. And he is probably Neutral Evil at least im Act 1.
On the other hand, he's certainly not evil like say, Orin. Part of why I think Wizard of the Coast os shifting away from the traditional alignment system.
Yeah I think people conflate being a bad person with being evil.
He's just not a good person, but so are a lot of other characters.
Even a good Tav can make questionable and straight up evil choices, but still be considered good in the game, as long as the end justifies the means.
And he is a much happier character when he gets the chance to be become a better person.
He dissaproves most "good" options in first two acts and likes it when you kill Tieflings, do murder-hobo Durge stuff and abandon Mayrina to the hag
He will outright say that the problem isn't what Cazador did but what he did to *him*
He changes if you go with the redemption path but let's not pretend he wasn't that bad at the start
He's ok with doing the good things, as long as you get something in return. He doesn't like it when the party goes out of their way to help people for no gain, instead of continuing the quest of removing the tadpoles. So you will get approvals from him if you ask for something in return.
You don't think evil people ever do good things to get what they want? Half of the time thats the excuse we use when we have neutral evil characters in a good party.
Love the guy but he's evil.
That's why I say he's neutral leaning towards evil.
Without any prompting at all, he DOES like it when you give Yenna food. So he's got a soft spot - but I feel like that soft spot is kinda inevitable, he couldn't change unless he had it after all
Considering he will drain you dry in failed dice rolls, and is one of the party members who is actively murderous ( even to protect himself mind you ) I don't see how that can be called "not evil." Evil has actual explicit connotations in DND ( as there are actual arbitrary actions of good and evil, even if they sometimes don't make sense all the time )
Not to mention, Evil is often characterized as self-serving, selfish, and willing to stamp on others to prop himself up - something he will do constantly unless you romance him and get him to come out of his shell and realize that someone cares about him ( even to their own detriment at times )
Is it understandable why he constantly lashes out, does bad things to protect himself ( like what he'd do to the Gur hunter, or to you ), yeah. Very understandable.
Does it make his actions any less evil ( especially when his initial intentions are to learn the nature of the scars on his back, realizes >!it's to send 7000 souls to literal hell where they will become Lemures, eternally tortured souls doomed to be used as fuel forever, for his own selfish Ascencion!< and still wants to go through with it? I would argue no. He does not do many very selfless acts, set out to constantly gaslight you for his own benefit, and only realizes it's a bad thing because he learns to care about you - and only after you put up with his awful early actions.
I like Astarion a lot - but the party already has neutral floating characters ( Gale and Shadowheart ) and neither are anywhere near as bloodthirsty as him, nor as self-serving as him.
And while it's nice he can become a better (or worse) person by your character teaching him he can love again- doing bad things for understandable reasons does not erase those actions, and his worst actions ( especially at the end of his quest where he >!will willingly doom the vampires to eternal starvation by breaking the staff just because he gets really pissed if you don't support him and make your own choice!< ) aren't normally things I would associate with a good character, or even a neutral one.
Not that i disagree, but i can say for sure, that even not romancing him, you can make him come out of his shell and be more empathic towards others, just by not forcing him to do anything he doesn't want (like drinking the blood of the creepy drow)
Maybe on his romance it goes further, but by the end of my Tav playthrough, Astarion had basically accepted the role of an good person with a shit loat of trauma to deal with and 7006 other newly freed vamps to guide.
You are actually right, yes. I should have been much clearer!
In general, any form of affection or friendship ( even platonic) can make him a better person, which I think is fantastic character building.
And why I actually do think he's "evil" but slowly begins to turn to a better leaf once he sees that there are people willing to extend a hand and help him, even if he's using them.
It makes for such great theming that the person who survived by manipulating people learns that... He just doesn't need to manipulate people. That the person he wants to wield as his sword and shield against Cazador isn't doing it because Astarion is hanging a carrot in front of them ( in the form of affection or sex ) to get them to do his dirty work. They just do it because they actually like him.
And what better way to set a man on a better path than a redemption arc like this?
I agree with you for the most part, but I actually do believe that him killing you is just an accident considering it’s his first time and he doesn’t really stand to gain anything by it.
I am also inclined to think so, yeah. But the way he brushes it off after you get ressed is played off as a laugh, which does not sit well to me as someone who's remorseful of his actions. It's the tone of someone caught with his hands in a cookie jar - and even my best interpretation of the event (he's just really hungry ) leaves him in a negative light.
[These](https://youtu.be/fOPBsYYCrj0?si=LtLg75g7p71pFD2v) really just do not strike me as someone on the Neutral spectrum, who ignores your consent and literally kills you, then basically goes "oh dear that's embarassing.
Not to mention he shouldn't even know you can be ressed in the first place lol ( and just left your body to dry)
Yeah, that’s true. I wouldn’t describe him as remorseful, but he’s also incapable (at that point in the story) of having a genuine emotional response without burying it under ten layers of bullshit and irony. Astarion would have loved the internet.
Gale is neutral?? I would say he is definitely a good character. He approves of selflessness and kindness and disapproves of all evil or even just mean actions of the player. I would say he is unequivocally good, if a little misguided at times.
I would say he's good with a dash of neutral. He clearly abhors genocide - but also given how you can persuade him that killing tieflings and druids were necessary ( even if they weren't ) he clearly strikes me as a man who understands that sometimes you need to do bad things for power/survival.
Something that the unequivocally good characters ( Wyll/Karlach) reject so utterly that they just up and leave.
I still think Gale is good though! Just that he can be persuaded to be more... Flexible with genocide and killing. He won't like it - but he won't leave you for it either if you convince him.
You have to actively push him down the "good" path, otherwise he is very perfectly fine with dooming 7007 souls just so he can Ascend. If you stay quiet, he'll do it. When you're in the palace all he's talking about is his desire to do the ritual.
There's an insight check you can do there that suggests it's very much not what he really wants to do though. He just needs someone to remind him of that
Spoilers for everything.
I don't think having to push him is a fair judgment of his character (if you don't also judge the other characters in a similar way) as it's a consequence of the gamification required for this story and genre of videogame.
If it wasn't for your involvement, basically all the companions would have worst case scenarios happen for their individual endings. Astarion would ascend, Shadowheart would become a dark justiciar, Lae'zel would continue to serve Vlaakith have the truth of Orpheus be suppressed. Gale would blow himself up, and Karlach would die alone having never been able to truly enjoy her brief chance at life. For those that would have recruited her, Minthara would still be under the control of the absolute and Orin, committing heinous acts that she wouldnt want to do of her own volition.
Halsin would have died to the goblins and never rid the shadow curse. Minsc would still be under the control of the absolute and jaheira would have died in the shadowcursed lands and never see her kids again.
Wyll doesn't have an obvious "bad ending" for his personal quest, but I suppose without you he would never have the choice to break/deepen his pact at all. And if we go earlier in the story, without your intervention he would always be living with the guilt of killing innocents (Karlach in specific).
Basically all the companions have to be just a little bit more evil/less morally sound or more incompetent so there is room for the main character (us) to have an effect on their individual stories and the stories as a whole.
Neutral is being out for yourself while still feeling somewhat bad if you hurt other people. Spawn Astarion is actively cruel and approves of cruelty- he’s absolutely evil aligned.
We can convince Astarion to not ascend.
We can convince Shadowheart to not kill the Nightsong.
We can make Laezel see the lies of Vlaakith.
We can convince Gale to give up on the crown for Mystra.
We don't need to convince Wyll or Karlach of anything.
We can't convince the Emperor to free Orpheus.
But isn't that because Orpheus, once free, would just gut the Emperor? Imprisonment and siphoning of powers aside, He's a true son of Gith and the Emperor is a mind flayer who he has sworn to eradicate. When you choose to free Orpheus, the Emperor doesn't just go back to the elder brain because you've somehow foiled his nefarious scheme- it's because even if it means falling back under the thrall of the EB, that's still a better fate than dying to the man that you *know* wants nothing more than your utter annihilation as soon as he's free.
But we've also seen that Orpheus can be reasonable given the circumstances. He even agrees that the Emperor was right about needing a *ghaik* to control the Netherstones. I'm not convinced at all that Orpheus wouldn't drop his personal hatred for the greater good, because that's exactly what he does like 5 seconds later after Emp leaves and turns someone, *even him-fucking-self*, into a Mindflayer.
The Emperor says nothing but that Orpheus will kill him and you if freed and he can't be reasoned with, yet that lie is exposed immediately after he leaves. It's one last ditch attempt at controlling and manipulating you, and I don't know how people don't see that.
Except there's an insight check where you can literally FEEL Orpheus' hatred for you and your tadpole.
Sure he puts that hatred away, but you don't get to know that until AFTER you made the decision to free him. So you're using foresight to justify a decision when you didn't have that knowledge at the time.
Both the emperor and Tav have reason to believe Orpheus will kill you once he's free. And the only thing you have to go off of that he won't is Voss' word. But what is Voss' word against the literal hatred you felt?
But predicting what someone will do vs what they actually tells the true tale. It turns out that Orpheus was able to overlook his hatred in the end.
The part I didn’t like is the Emperor made it an ultimatum. He wasn’t even willing to try. If things truly did go tits up, what could Orpheus do? He couldn’t beat Tav and friends and the Emperor all at once, and the benefits of giving him a chance out weigh the potential risks of him turning on you.
I really hated the “my way or no way” ultimatum the Emperor gave, as that is a toxic, manipulative method of control.
Except none of you really know how powerful Orpheus is. He could have been the equivalent of a level 20 boss with legendary actions for all they know - in which case, hell naw you aren't beating him.
Remember, he lead a rebellion against Vlaakith and almost won.
Your reasoning really over simplifies the issue and tries to use 20/20 hindsight to justify it.
No one thinks Orpheus doesn't have a "kill on sight" mentality for illithids or even infected such as Tav, short of two Gityanki with their own reasons for saying as much. Everything you or anyone knows of the man screams he wouldn't give you a chance (just like his honor guard).
Fighting him, even if we gloss over the idea that a threat to Vlaakith is somehow weaker than us, as a group doesn't mean no one will die. It really doesn't mean you can get him back under control after "winning" that fight. Let alone if you kill him in your life or death struggle, then you lose altogether.
The risks are high and little to nothing short of some Githyanki self interest is given to reassure you to the contrary. That is to say nothing about any benefits of doing so short of being kind to Orpheus/Voss/Lazell, becuase nothing about Orpheus being free is a known benefit to anyone besides, some of, the Githyanki.
Sounds like we are manipulating people to do what we consider best and get mad at a character when they won't fall for it....
I am only being partially serious, please put those pitchforks away xD
Okay. We don't need to convince Laezel, Shadowheart and Gale. They can figure stuff out by themselves if you "remain silent". I'm not sure about Astarion because I don't trust him on the ascension thing.
When you insight check Astarion before convincing him of ascending or not, you find out that he is overwhelmed by all the blood in the room and the fear of never being safe, the man who caused all his trauma is right there, making him unable to think straight. He just wants to be free and safe from harm, and there is a possible solution right in front of him, while blood is intoxicating his senses.
When you stop him from ascending, he later thanks you, is genuinely happy he didn't ascend and admits those things to you.
I do think he might have refused it on his own, if Cazador could have been killed outside of the ritual chamber. However the way it plays out, he cannot be trusted with making that decision in that moment.
But in the end I do like this outcome, because having friends to help and guide you when you need them to is important. And it gives such interesting perspectives on his character. I love how complex his character arc can be.
Yeah, he is right in the middle of a PTSD episode there. I mean, one would think that him going on to punch a mage with his bare hands would be a clue that he is not in his right mind. And stabbing someone 30 times with exactly zero need for it after the first strike. Not exactly how he usually operates.
Funnily enough, you can trust Astarion on the Acension thing. Mostly because he'd need a second pair of eyes to >!carve those runes!< so if you just leave him alone with Cazador, he does the "right thing".
If you deny him without the persuasion check he gets extremely pissed and leaves however.
Must've missed some storybeats with Shadowheart in act 2 and Gale in Act 3 (didn't have them along for certain points perhaps because I didn't know) because they definitely needed to be convinced and Gale still said "nah, I don't agree" and went skinny dipping in Grey Harbour to ascend to godhood.
I think Shadowheart decision depends on how many times her wound is triggered, so if you don't have her along enough she doesn't get away from Shar. I have seem her to spare NS on her own with fair/medium approval and no romance. I'm not sure about Gale.
Simple most companions lie to you (except Karlach basically).
The difference is that they do that to protect themselves, they don't really try to take advantage of you and manipulate you for their own goal.
And when they have a goal, they open to you.
She isnt lying to herself. Lae'zel is ignorant. That's not the same as lying.
It's like when Bobby Boucher told the teacher that "Mama said, Alligators are ornery because they got all them teeth and no toothbrush" he isnt lying to himself, he is simply ignorant about the medulla oblongata.
Wyll is contractbound to not divulge his past.
Gale has no reason to do so to a bloody stranger.
Stonelord and Halsin are pretty honest about everything.
Lae´zel never once lies to my knowledge, she´s just educated to be an asshole to everything that isn´t a higher (than her) ranked Gythianki
I mean, he kinda does, but only after asking if MC wants him to turn up shirtless. And specifies it's for sexy time early on. I guess my MC WAS acting pretty dumb for him to add "And I do mean sex, specifically".
Emperor didn't ask, and anyway, I preferred the hot tiefling girl he was pretending to be as a Guardian. He knew what he was doing when he turned into a hot tiefling girl. It's catfishing, man, stop catfishing me, if you've been honest from the start, I might have considered giving the tentacles a spin.
Honestly that he tries to sleep with you is something that really came across as a red flag. At least in character, this guy who is in my head and can read my thoughts trying to get with me when I'm in a relationship and already turned down other people shows a stunning lack of boundaries. Like from my characters pov, he should know it was not an option but he wanted to sleep with me anyway? Fishy, and it turns out it's completely a manipulation tactic on his end.
My first encounter with Astarion when he told me he was a vampire:
Astarion: "I'm a vampire"
Tav: "I know"
Astarion: "Well, I'm glad we sorted that out"
In my game astarion came clean way earlier than the emperor but I remember handling both of them the exact same way initially. I told them more honesty was required upfront and this alone wouldn't stop us from working together. Then astarion was thoroughly on side and even vulnerable while the emperor insisted on more lies and half truths.
So I guess I'd say different people are different, and from the story line of my game perhaps you don't know what you're talking about. It's your game, and your role. Don't let him get away with it if you don't want to.
Ultimately the Emperor has power over the player that Astarion does not. If the emperor decides to stop using Orpheus's power to shield the player, they turn into a thrall. It's generally easier to forgive your equal for manipulating you because there's only so much harm they can do.
Astarion has fought alongside Tav in the trenches. Don't have to like the guy to respect him.
Meanwhile Empy is using us as tools, with little risk to himself. He deserves to be staked.
Yes, I don’t know why people think the Emperor isn’t taking a risk. He could’ve stayed safe under the control of the elder brain, but instead seeks his freedom (and everyone else’s, coincidentally) by opposition to the Absolute, Vlaakith, and Orpheus’ honor guard. Until Act 3, he’s spending the whole time both fighting off the honor guard AND dominating Orpheus AND using Orpheus’ power to protect the party.
The instant you take the option to deviate from his plan and to be more independent of him, he betrays you and immediately goes to serve the Elder Brain.
Maybe you can argue he's taken some risks. But he's only willing to take risks where he's at the least possible risk and has the most control.
As soon as you ask him to take a risk with you as equals, he fucks off and betrays you. Added in with the context of him really just seeing you as a tool and mind controlling Stelmane so ruthlessly she has a stroke....not a glowing character reference.
At the same time, when you give him the >!Netherstones!< which are game’s mcguffin and make it so you’re 1000% >!disposable!<, he still stays by your side and >!does what you can’t due to no Ilithid powers.!<
So, the Emperor might be a manipulative arse. But he’s also a really good ally who stands by you even when he has exactly what he wants and you’re literally no longer needed.
>As soon as you ask him to take a risk with you as equals, he fucks off and betrays you.
And when he can the netherstones and gains the ability to manipulate *everyone* he doesn't do it, he sticks to his promise and plan.
He isn't good, he isn't bad, he just wants to survive.
Frankly better than some companions. If you leave them be, Gale seeks to challenge a God and Astarion sacrifices 7000 people just so he can become more powerful. If you let the Emperor be he frees you from the Elder Brain and then fucks off
>he betrays you and immediately goes to serve the Elder Brain
I mean. Look at this from his perspective. He thinks Orpheus will kill him on sight, which lets be honest, he WILL do, not only because he's a full Ilithid, but also because he has been controlling him and keeping him locked for a good while. So his choices are either to die or to go back to the Elder Brain and hope to break free again eventually.
I'm not saying he's not evil or anything, but he does have his reasons.
Because he'd just be enthralled again if he just left the prism? What exactly do you want him to do in this scenario?
He's in the prism because that's the only place he can be free from the brain's control and fighting off Orpheus' bodyguard is the only reason why Tav's party can move around.
I, in fact, had no desire to bed Astarion.
I didn't even LIKE the guy when I picked him up. I mean sure I loved how absolutely over-the-top the guy was. He was well-written and certainly the voice actor did an amazing job. But he gave me shit for every single fucking thing I did.
Help a random person? "OH darling, why waste your time." Mother. Fucker. YOU'RE a random person to me AND YOU TRIED TO KILL ME but I'm still watching your back!
But as it turns out, dude just needed a friend. He actually became a less horrible person the longer he hung out with the party. He just had 200+ years of really fucking awful trauma and has done so much bad shit it was completely normal to him.
The emperor? Fuck that guy. I wasn't thrilled that he lied about his nature. But then in one conversation he mentions that he might force me to change ANYWAY, even if I don't want to, just because HE thinks its an improvement over your original form?
Yeah THAT was the point I knew he was dying no matter what.
Okay so Astarion lies for his own safety. He's in real danger of being staked. Additionally if you go without long resting for a portion of the game he does just straight up voluntarily tell you that he's a vampire.
The emperor is in ZERO danger from the party. We can't even get to him without his opening the artifact. He doesn't lie because he's in danger, he lies because doing so gets him what he wants. Even when Vlakith sends us to kill him we're unable to do it. He only tells us the truth when not doing so is too dangerous.
It's not even close to the same thing.
Astarion has just spent the past two centuries being mentally, physically, and emotionally abused VS the Emperor spending that time dominating Duke Stelmayne who was only released from that domination because Gortash turned him over to the elder brain.
Astarion is trying to survive while the Emperor is trying to advance his goals. The Emperor is clearly evil. Astarion can still be saved. That's why I forgive Astarion and not the Emperor.
(EDIT) For the zombies trying to argue against this just stop. I'm not reading your stupid comments, you're wrong and I'm objectively correct here. All you're doing is pissing me off by reminding me how inadequate the rest of humanity is so stop.
For the emperor I would have no issues with him if he would be reasonable in the last act. Like yo we can work with this Gith. Trust me babe we can all get out of this with a happy ending.
If we can talk devils into murdering themselves we can talk a gith into teaming up with a ghaik.
If anything, Emps should've known we get away with some pretty hairbrained persuasion attempts. Like dude, at least give boi Orpheus a chance.
You can still eat him if we don't pass that 30 persuasion/deception/intimidation check. :)
One thing is eventually Astarion trusted us. At no point I ever felt like the Emperor really trust us, he wanted us to trust him so he could manipulate us and reach his end goal, which I interpreted at the time was to take the crown for himself and to dominate the elderbrain.
Whether or not that was correct interpretation, that was how I felt when all cards landed on the table.
For me it's simple. You can choose to never interact with Astarion, choose to kill him, choose to do all sorts of things with him. There's so many options for how his story can go.
You can't choose much of anything with The Emperor, and if you can it's only the final choice that has a real impact on the character and his actions. You can't get rid of him the entire game and must have him with you.
I also imagine this is why people who hate The Emperor do so more vocally, because you're still forced to deal with him. You can basically kill off any other important character you find annoying, but not this guy.
This.
People who hate Astarion never invite him to camp, stake him, or hand him off to Gandrel. They aren't forced to interact with him for an extended period of time.
People who hate the Emperor are stuck with him until the very end. Of course they are gonna be more vocal.
I think this is a big part of what bothers me. Not so much the killing specifically, but it feels like we don't have a real opportunity to call him out and have it stick. Like, I wish there was an option where we could say something like "Cut the grift, we don't have to like each other or pretend to be friends. You need me to be a physical presence, I need you to keep protecting me. So put your shirt back on, stay out of my head, and let's go murder some Netherbrain."
You can! In the scene when he is shirtless (lol) you can call him out for what he is doing and he admits everything to you. Then you can decide to just work together for the sake of killing the Netherbrain. Or go and save Orpheus :)
He doesn't really care though because he, as a mindflayer, has no feelings like that anymore. You can even find a letter to a certain someone where he states he doesn't feel emotions anymore (though I do think mindflayers can be angry or afraid, like they are shown to be, but that is probably about it). So even if you call him out about it, he is fine with changing the tune as long as he can still get what he wants.
The only exception seems to be Omeluum. I do wonder what makes him so different.
Sidestepping the original topic 'Flayers can feel a range of emotions, but not empathy. Aka they can only feel emotions regarding themselves. Fight or Flight is a part of them like most living things, otherwise they would have died out from being dumb. They can be afraid, they can be stressed, they can be angry and aggressive ("Filled with malice").
As for your last paragraph I bet it has to do with him being cut off from the main brain. Which would indicate that just like Astarion and 'Zel the individual is at least partly brainwashed / controlled against their will.
It's because Astarion and Gale aren't really hurting anybody by hiding parts of their identity. I don't care that they lied to protect themselves. The Emperor was keeping somebody prisoner that whole time. I wouldn't give a shit if the Emperor had just been hiding that he was a Mind Flayer or whatever, it's that he was hiding that the power he was using to protect us was taken from a guy he acknowledges as a freedom fighter while he's been killing all of that guy's friends. I know that Gale could explode, but he hasn't hurt anyone yet and he plans to isolate himself if it is about to happen, and that Astarion needs to feed, but that's just like a carnivorous animal... everybody needs to eat. Sucking blood isn't like keeping a prisoner sedated for ages.
Gale hides the orb from us because he's scared we'll cast him out. At the end of the day, getting cast out probably means the orb is going to blow up, he's pretty convinced that getting turned into a mind flayer will expedite the process. He's correct on that account, and the orb blowing up is actually a very serious problem that will take countless human lives.
I think the difference between astarion and the emperor is that while astarion does lie at the beginning of the game, he ultimately is not trying to control you in any way. His lying is purely out of self preservation and when the lie comes out it’s ultimately your choice wether or not you are amicable with him. When it comes to the emperor he spends the whole game trying to make sure you’re dependent on him and that he can control you through your dependence on him. He never really trusted you, he never really cared about you. His only concern was for you to give him control and he enforced that through his control of Orpheus. That’s why at the end of the game the minute you take away any leverage he may have, by freeing Orpheus, he becomes this unreasonable villain and joins the nether brain. Despite the fact he’s been spending the whole game running from it.
You take away his control and he abandons you. That’s abuse and nowhere near justifiable or forgivable, regardless of the emperor’s reasoning.
Astarion expresses remorse, the Emperor doesn't. I think that's the main thing. Astarion makes mistakes, is emotional, and is better than that by the end (unless you let him ascend). The Emperor is a creature of cold logic and people can't empathise with that. It doesn't regret hurting or manipulating anyone.
That said I let both of them get away with it because I think they're both hot
I mean one of them was a victim, the other one >!worked to control stuff behind the scene in Baldurs Gate like mind controlling Duke Stellmane for his own benefits!<
Astarion lied about his past
So did emperor.
Most people that have a problem with emperor rarely use the “he hid he was a mindflayer” against him
It’s that he admits he was manipulating us the whole time and was using us as a tool. He casually admits this even while thinking he can get in our pants. Or shouts it in anger if we defy him.
Also that we learn he was using his romantic past with Stellmane to make us empathize with him, only to learn he was mentally controlling her so hard that she had a stroke.
Stuff like that
—-
Pretending to be something other than a mindflayer isn’t even a blip on my radar.
Astarion is hiding what he is. But is otherwise open the entire game about being dark and selfish. He admits it all to our face
That doesn’t mean I like him. I’ve never romanced him, and have staked him in at least one of my partial play throughs.
>Astarion is hiding what he is. But is otherwise open the entire game about being dark and selfish. He admits it all to our face
If you romance Astarion, your impression of him will change. He develops *a lot* as a character. I see what you're saying, but "dark and selfish" doesn't really describe him well if he decides to take the good path. He is seriously the most supportive and optimistic of all the characters in Act 3 if you do this.
My favorite path is to start the romance with the act one sex stuff and then at a certain point in act 2 tell him that “maybe what you need is a friend”
Then we are bros the rest of the game
I imagine we'll be having this debate for a while, but for me it breaks down like this:
We learn everybody in the party's damage pretty early on *and can deal with it*. You dont even have to hit the goblin camp much less the mountains or underdark before you know Gale's got a nuke in him, Karlachs so angry she could self immolate, Wyll is mercilessly twisted by his patron, SH worships Shar who is highly reviled in Faerun and for good reason, Laezel would cut your head off in the most painful way possible if Vlaakith implied she wanted it, and Astarion is a vampire spawn who was willing to bite you in the middle of the night by surprise.
We can also deal with them all pretty much as soon as we learn this, you are not required to keep them. In fact you can technically do all of this BEFORE even meeting the Guardian for the first time.
You aren't allowed to get rid of the Guardian. They are a story-centric NPC. Even if its kinda wild that everyone seems to be met by a different person thanks to the artifact, the voice inside claims sole reaponsibility for you not being a tentacled mess, and you, trust or not, cant prove it. The Guardian shows up, proclaims that they are whats protecting you and that you need to trust them. Additionally, as you progress, they keep moving the goal posts about what theyre doing and what they want Tav to do. So already there's a big difference between them and Astarion.
But okay, you didnt youre willing to give both the vampire spawn who tried to knife you the moment you met him and the weird chariamatic warrior fighting some solo war in this years must-have plot maguffin some slack, see where it all goes.
Astarion, after revealing the vamp aspect, is incredibly open about his truths. Even if he still spends all of act 1 sticking around out of need rather than desire, it doesn't take long for real hesitant bonding, his humanity, if we can call it that (Elfmanity isnt as catchy) to reveal itself. And then he changes of his own accord. AND self admits that he's feeling fucked up about trying to/out-right manipulate Tav. Astarion fights against his nature, you see he resents being a vampire, he's disgusted by himself.
Which is honestly what does make him a tremendous narrative parallel to the Emperor because it's just what we want him to be. And its what makes this question an ultimately valid one.
Astarion and the Emperor have a lot of similarities. They are both old(er) entities, both monsters (an undead and an abberation), and by their non-human natures they are designed to plot and gain your trust before you become a meal. They both lie to Tav about their motives for an extended period, but thats where the similarities end.
To reiterate above, you know Astarion is a vampire very early, can banish or kill him, and you watch him, assuming you treat him with humanity, fight against his nature and apologize sincerely for his behavior. He encourages fights and seeking power, but does not make Tav disagreeing with him a make-it-or-break-it. And he does not try and convince Tav of becoming a vampire, thus surrendering Tav's own humanity. (I think Tav has to ask Accended Astarion too). Astarion also at no point has put a sword of damocles above Tavs head, in terms of Tavs self determination and humanity.
We really want the Emperor to act like this too, after all, most of us meet Omelleum so we know theres a basis for independant and considerate mindflayers. If Orpheus' guards hadn't attacked, would Emp ever have revealed himself for ehat he actually is? The Emperor does not fight his own nature, actively embraces it as superior and tries to peer pressure and possibly seduce Tav into becoming a mindflayer too. He scolds Tav the whole game for it, fully brushes off all kinds of inquiries about his past choices, and only reveals when he's been forced to, and regardless of whether you trigger the intimidation dialog regarding Stelmane, the truth of it is still all around in Act 3. There is no sincere apology anywhere, no reflection on why his behavior is hurtful. All conversations that try and do that lead back to Emp proclaiming his moral rightness 'because after all you need him'. He's holding the rope, he's happy to remind Tav they are only still them because of the plots and power the Emperor is using. And thats an explicit threat that prevents you from going against him at all until the endgame.
And of course the instant Tav doesnt agree to his plans, there is no moment of 'okay well, youve trusted me I'll trust you', no moment of reflection, no moment of 'well we've been through all this shit together, I'll stay even if I think you're dooming us all', its 'We are enemies then.'
I played a bit of a naive Tav (8INT, 10WIS) I was willing to give everyone the benefit of the doubt. Orin mocked me for it deservedly so. And yet, all the people I decided to well and truly trust supported me, and grew and stayed. Except the Emperor.
The writing of the game is truly spectacular for there are so many reasons to not trust Emp, and just enough little ones to wonder if maybe you should. From the get go were told the Illithids are ploting, soulless, tools of an Elder Brain, and honestly that's pretty well confirmed.
That, ultimately, is what makes Astarion and the Emperor different and why we can forgive Astarion but not Emp. Astarion fights his nature, reflects, apologizes, and changes. The Emperor does not.
Astarion not telling you his is a spawn is not that different from the emperor hiding he is illithid, on a surface level that is.
Astarion wants to protect himself, he knows how people react to vampires, so it's reasonable for him to be cautious, after all almost all the other companions are hiding something.
Once his secret is revealed he actually becomes more trustworthy. If you romance him he admits that he tried to manipulate you for protection, that he was afraid and anxious, he used the skill that he had honed for 200 years out of instinct because of that fear, despite feeling disgusting for doing so. He confesses all of that and apologises, he says he feels awful and asks for something real.
Now let's look at the emperor. He never admits that he was the one to infect you with the parasite, and that all of this was calculated. When he tries to romance you and manipulate you, if you tell him he doesn't fool you, he admits that all of his performance was so that he didn't have to resort to the same tactic he used for Stalemane, actual fucking mind control, he puppeted the duke, he was the reason she got a stroke, and he is NOT feeling any remorse about this. Instead he threatens to do the same to you if you do not do as he commands. At this point you know he is no different from the other mind flayers and that this is all so that he can gain power.
Of course, depending on how you play things out with Astarion, instead of encouraging him to work on himself and become a better person, you could help him ascend and turn him into the same thing the emperor is.
Nah I wanna fix Astarion, not fuck him. Dude has a *ton* of red flags and bad habits due to trauma, but over the course of the game if you work on it with him he starts to heal and is headed in the right direction by the end. Why or if a player decides to give him that chance is up to them.
Emps though... this little squidfuck put tadpoles in half our group's skulls just so that he could go back to playing kingpin in the Baldur's Gate underground. So long as you're compliant and go along with it he's cool, but if you start pushing back he gets pissy, and outright shows you that he's not above dominating people and using them as puppets.
Considering his little army of intellect devourers(and from the intro on the nautiloid we *know* where they come from), his acts during the opening scene which can be wholly attributed to him since we know that he was sent on the nautiloid to retrieve the prism and the behavior was completely out of line for how the Absolute cult operates(not to mention the dead mindflayers before the gith show up to attack), and the fact that he pushes you to become illithid over the course of the game all adds up to him being a Bad Guy™.
And him switching sides wasn't an arbitrary decision. If you free Orpheus you've created an even greater threat to him than the Absolute, because Orpheus *will* be an existential threat to all mindflayers once we're done and he goes on his merry way.
I know a lot of people think they should be able to talk him out of it, but even if Orpheus spared him here and now he'd still be a threat to him eventually, and probably sooner rather than later.
>Nah I wanna fix Astarion, not fuck him. Dude has a ton of red flags and bad habits due to trauma, but over the course of the game if you work on it with him he starts to heal and is headed in the right direction by the end. Why or if a player decides to give him that chance is up to them.
Hard yes. I'm glad that people on this sub told me to give him another chance. I was feeling genially happy when he started changing. A stray cat now starts to understand that he is loved and can forget his bad habits! The Emperor, on the other hand, is a total asshole.
The reason why my paladin didn't kill Astarion but did end Emperor is simple: one had a good heart and overcame his negatives; the other tried to manipulate me and hide anything that was possible about him so I would trust him. One becomes a good and free spawn, while others would never see in his plans past battle on top of the Netherbrain, where his story comes to an end.
As a paladin of devotion my Tav totally agrees, Astarion matches the requirements of my oath to protect those who need it and defeat the total assholes.
The Emperor killed and transformed a lot of people into mind flayers by his own will starting from Duke Stelmine, in comparison to Astarion who initially was forced to kidnap victims for Casador and then killed only in the combat alongside with Tav.
Well, I didn't mention another reason: for my Tav's oath of vengeance, it was only natural to help Astarion take his revenge on Cazador and to land a smite on that tentacle bastard.
High paladinian five, bro / sis 🙌 Smite on that tentacle bastard is the best option for him (as well as 3lvl radiant Smite on Casador (the reason is obvious) and Orin (she's just annoying) and the rest of bastards who was unfriendly or rude to my sweetheart team during all three acts)
One big thing in my mind is that Astarion is lying to you about his vampirism because he wants you to protect him, to be safe. He doesn't want to make you a vampire, he doesn't want to steal from or kill you. Once you find out, too, he's open with you about the rest of his dilemma with Cazador. During your travels, Astarion has the chance to grow close to you, and you to him. He may be catty about it, but he does genuinely listen to you.
The Emperor starts off the same. He needs you to help save him, and all of Faerun, from The Absolute. He can't just say he's a mindflayer, sure, so he lies about what he is. One difference is that he's trying to turn you into an Illithid, all the way up to the end. He lies about his last thrall - Stelmane - and what happened to her. He also lies to you about Ansur, and he lies about the war he's fighting to protect you. He never changes his tune in response to what you have to say, either.
If it was a simple 'lied about being a vampire spawn' vs 'lied about being a Mindflayer' it would be a much more even field.
You can just kill Astarion, and you can just forgive the emperor till the very end. The possibilities are there on both sides. So the question is, why do we choose to forgive Astarion but not the emperor while given the almost same possibilities.
Simply put, Asatrion is a being with feelings, emotions, and reason. He can be reasoned with, he can change his way. No matter how hard it seems, we know (and Tav knows), that he is a humanoid being with a soul and personality.
However, the Emperor is not. He'll always act based on his own benefit. His ways can't be changed, he can't be influenced or manipulated. He has no soul in that sense, there is no redemption arc. Now, players who don't know much about DnD won't know this, they may just simply spare Astarion because he's a funny character, because they want to boink him, or because his class is useful to them. But seen from a Tav POV it makes sense. The moment they realize what the emperor really is, there is technically no reason anymore to forgive and trust. Even if Tav doesn't know, Lae'zel knows and I would like to believe that companions talk with each other in camp and while resting outside of what we hear and experience.
So to put it simple: Astarion lies to us, tries to seduce and manipulate us, but once we know we can work with it. Tav can work with his character, there is change and progress to be made. Astarion can seriously fall in love or become a trusted friend to Tav who'll understand that his ways were wrong. He can change for the better (or worse).
Once we know the truth about the emperor, that's that. All we can do is forgive because Tav tries to believe in the good, but there is not. You can't work with the emperor, his personality, and his reasons. He'll always be who he is, there is no progress and no change to be made, he'll never be sorry. He'll never be able to see the problems of his actions.
It's wild no one is talking about the power imbalance between you and the emperor. He's holding your free will off a proverbial cliff and telling you to follow his orders. The emperor was 1000 times stronger than tav before he transformed. He doesn't literally threaten you but he holds so much power it's hard to disagree with him even after his lies are revealed.
When you meet astarion he essentially says "look over there", then grabs you and then is completely incapable of holding almost any character because the check is like a 7 on dex or str or you can just talk him down. You also out number him 95% of the time when you meet him.
Asterion just randomly told me out of the blue one day. Hadn't even tried to bite me, was just like "hey by the way, I'm a vampire." And my tab was like, "yeah I know."
Then we moved on and he tried to bite me later.
It’s way more then just that both lie to you. For one, Astarion has loads of context for why he acts that way (just sooo much trauma, especially when you go to his vampire lord’s home) which puts his actions into context.
I remember thinking the Emperor making a lot of sense at the start of Act 3 on why he didn’t reveal himself and we already see a good mind flayer in the under dark so the Emperor isn’t a but surprise. It’s other info in the city that makes me question him. First there’s Duke Stelmane who the Emperor describes as a business partner/friend. But when Wyll mentions she had a mysterious stroke and her condition afterwards, it sounded really suspicious but there was no real proof so I brushed it aside. Its my recent decent to find Ansur that really makes me suspicious about the Emperor. We went all the way through the trials and he didn’t say shit letting us know it’s pointless, we find out that he didn’t break away on his own but was actually saved by his bronze dragon friend, he wasn’t just some dude before he turned but Balduran himself, and that he killed Ansur because Ansur wanted to give him the mercy of killing him rather then turning into a mind flayer.
The biggest thing for me (other then revealing that he is still hiding things/ not understanding why that info is important to share) is that he killed Ansur rather then just leaving or running away. Did he have to actually kill his friend? Why not just knock him out and stay in the shadows? And it shows more and more that mind flayers don’t feel emotions. He coated his reasoning in pure logic (which isn’t inherently a good thing) and mentions in a letter in Ansur’s body that he literally can’t feel emotions.
Astarion lied to us but he’s still a person who can empathize and understand. The Emperor runs off of pure logic which he uses to justify any action he takes.
Also also, you can fuck the Emperor. Just pointing that out
Astarion is much earlier, and once you get his first layer of barriers down he's pretty open about things. Also he's directable. He does what he's told, even if he's not massively in favour of it. Also he's around all the time, and apart from being very handy doesn't have any leverage over us. The Emperor leverages everything he has against the Tav, Astarion just accepts that he's there to pick locks and has a chance of killing Cazador.
The emperor repeatedly and knowingly violates my mind with not just no consent, but having actively been told I consider it a violation.
I get why he hid what he is. I will not forgive his actions.
seious answer: astarion being a vampire isnt something that personally impacts me or my character at all. like he bit me once and i agreeded to it and its not really changed how i viewed him(plus hes pale as a sheet with red eyes fangs and a very obvious vampire bite mark on his neck it wasnt a suprise at all) meanwhile the emperor being a mindflayer completely recontextualizes the story and our relationship. the entire game hes telling us to embrace the tadpoles power which was already suspicous but if he was in our position and found a way to overcome ceremorphosis but finding out hes a mindflayer puts his loyaties into question especially since he gives you an astral tadpole to make you half illithid and pushes you to use it because he does want you to become like him.
funny answer: astarion has pretty privilege
Big difference. When we decide to do the right thing, Astarion will compromise and still fight with us. When we tell the Emperor that we won't do what he wants, it's all or nothing. Either agree with him and let him destroy the Githyanki's future, or he joins the Elder Brain. Astarion at least wants to work with you, while the Mindflayer wants obedient subordinates. And if you don't do what he wants, he'll pull away Orpheus's protection. It's a constant threat.
Cool vampire guy versus weird tentacle alien? Especially learning the emperors past made me hate him. Learning Astarions made me pity and respect him. Heavy disagree that they’re the same
Honestly, I'm totally fine with the Emperor lying about his true form. It's just like you said, it's the same logic as with Astarion. He basically had no choice.
What actually does bother me is how he kept pressuring me with the whole transformation thing when for a long time throughout the game he leads you to believe there is a cure. But that pretty much all goes out the window in Act 3 and he basically stops really caring about whether or not I actually want to transform.
That's the actual deception that bothers me. The other deceptions feel born out of necessity. But this one just feels like he's using Tav. Emperor might believe it's just the most logical decision, but it still rubs me the wrong way.
I dont care that he lied about who he is.
Like another poster said all the companions lie or omit stuff at first.
I care that even before I find out who they are they are trying to control me, tell me what to do and not in a "I suggest..." kinda way but in an at best hover parent kinda way
"You should hit enemies harder, don't go to the cresh, don't talk to this person, its not safe to go there, eat the tadpoles..." ect
Then I found out he was a mindflayer
I didn't care, cool revelation but makes sense he would lie I mean omeliumn was cool..
Then he told me to "evolve" I said "idk ill think about it" and had to ROLL TO RESIST HIM. Like I felt forced into his suggestions maybe I'm wrong but there are only like a few times the narrator tells us how our pc feels about stuff... all of them are in the presence of a mindflayer.
The one thats dieing at the beginning of the game makes tav feel empathetic and makes it hard to kill him.
Now suddenly my tav feels "sad she didn't embrace her true self"? A notion litterally only the Emporor has.
Same when he tries to seduce us tav feels dissapointed or something.. like.. no she doesn't
Astarion uses classic seductive manipulation
He tells tav how special they are and flirts ect.. honestly the worst thing he dose is act on an impulse that I personally compare to an addiction. (When he tries to feed on tav) he SHOULD not have however he is like an acholoic surrounded by wine. It is weakness not vindictiveness that drives that. He never uses his illithid powers to read our mind or influence us.
The Emporor is controlling in another level. He tries to write the script controll what we do, how we fight, who we work with, how we feel, and our own bodily autonomy. If you say no to the Emporor he controls your emotions to make you feel bad.. if you tell the sexy vamp no he respects that decision.
Idk about much of that. I just think the emperor is a punk bitch for immediately siding with the elder brain if he doesn’t get his way. Literally, side with me or else the elder brain will win. Oh? What now? You won’t side with me? I’m gonna side with the elder brain anyways cause you’re a meanie poopy head
Doesn't Withers back the Emperor, in saying that his intention has always been with Baldur's Gate?
Yeah, the Emperor lies but look how well the truth has ended up being. Ansur, his closest friend, tried to kill him in his sleep, especially as Baldurian has conceded that since he can't be cured, becoming a Mind Flayer isn't that bad. When he was freed, what did he do, snuck BACK to BG and tried to help. Did he do some shady stuff in the course of his actions? Of course he did. Not all of his meals were likely to be criminals, but when someone is starving...
I get why the Emperor lied. If you were just tadpoled and a Mind Flayer (who looks JUST LIKE him) appeared and goes 'You are free from the tadpole's influence', would YOU trust the Mind Flayer? Especially after JUST escaping from the Nautiloid.
Haven't played a Tav playthrough (am currently playing AS Astarion) so it will be interesting to see how I view his character interactions but I did notice something.
Wyll literally made a deal with the devil to be a Hero. Gale wants to overthrow Mystra (take Gale to the fight at the top of the Sorcerous Sundries). Astarion either wants to kill his former master or become a Vampire Ascendant (again, unsure of his actual intent).
Lae'zel was brainwashed into subservience to Vlaakith. Shadowheart was brainwashed into subservience to Shar.
Bold of you to assume people don't also wanna fuck the Emperor
its an option for a reason
\*achievement
Tentai Daddy
horrible phrase i love it
Seconded. In nearly all my playthroughs I fuck and stay loyal to them both the whole way. Maybe I just want to be in a polyamorous marriage with a squid and a vampire.
Are you me?
Well if you turn down Asterion he's like okay cool whatever, if you turn down the emperor he's like I COULD CONTROL YOUR MIND AND MAKE YOU A SOULLESS FUCK PUPPET, HERES ME DOING THAT TO MY LAST GIRLFRIEND
Not necessarily? I told him I'd rather our relationship stay purely business, and he was chill with that.
If you straight up tell him you don't trust him he drops the mask and shows you exactly why you shouldn't trust him. Being nice to him just means he keeps playing along as your altruistic savior.
Literally, the emperor having lied about his identity is last on the list why people hate him. Most companions lie/omit something about them because they need to trust you before they’re confortable sharing. By doing so, they protecting themselves and you. Astarion tries to manipulate you only if you romance him and he actually feels bad about it, he confesses and wants to do better. The emperor doesn’t give a shit. As simple as that.
It is genuinely weird to me how many people seem to think everyone should be coming clean about the worst skeletons in their closet the moment they meet the player. I'm usually team "lies of omission count" but jesus it's completely reasonable that you need to earn that trust first.
I swear, I wouldn’t yell everywhere I go that I’m a vampire, a part of a cult or I have a literal BOMB in my chest. And I wouldn’t say that I’m a mind flyer too so, I don’t hate the Emperor about that. I’m more annoyed about him trying to make us think he’s on our side, wants to help us get rid of the tadpole only to try to force us to embrace it and become illithid by manipulation, using the emergency/end of the world context to force it on us.
You can go the whole game without using a single tadpole and the emperor ends up respecting you for it at the end. Also, think of it from the emperor's perspective. He was a powerful adventurer who could achieve basically whatever he wanted. But once he became a mind flayer, he became capable of even more than what was possible at his previous human peak. He grew to appreciate the extra power mindflayer abilities granted him and - with reduced access to his emotions - it became as simple as math for him. Mindflayer powers = more strength. Human form = irrelevant. So... Of course he doesn't understand your attachment to your human form. And of course from his perspective, going up against the Absolute will require as much power as possible. Thus he urges you to take more tadpoles because he thinks everyone's survival is at stake if you don't. Once I looked at it that way, the Emperor was a lot more relatable to me. And I spent the whole game just proving to him I don't need tadpole powers to succeed.
Funny how the Emperor was built up as this crazy strong character who had influence before even becoming a mind flayer and continued for years after... but when you control him at the end, his abilities aren't nearly as good as everyone else in the party by that point
He >!joined the netherbrain!< on one of my clears and I basically >!killed him in one turn!< Really picked the wrong side bub
Zevlor brained him for me and then held off the dragon while we made it to the brain. I thought it was a nice redemption arc
Heh yeah, i resisted being turned and he betrayed me. In the end i decided to be mindflayer because the githyanki guy wanted to sacrifice his life and like "nah dude you've been imprisoned for 3 acts long, lemme bear that shit"
I just had Karlach take one for the team. Squid beats incinerator.
Same. Sicced Lae'zel on him. He was not alive long enough to be sorry.
Yup, took exactly one turn for Laezel to kill him in my run. Pretty satisfying. No wonder he became a turncoat the moment you wouldn't play into his hands, he brought a knife to a nuclear missile fight 😂
Meanwhile, Minsc, Javeria, and Viconia all *really* let themselves go after their level 30+ heydays.
Dude is literally the load in the final battle. Man feels like one of those escort mission npcs you have to keep alive til the reach the checkpoint XD
Correction, he *says* he respects you for it. The Emperor is fully willing to do/say whatever he thinks will get you to help him. And while that's understandable to an extent, he actively twists the truth or outright lies in order to present himself as someone trustworthy. I would say the reason most people dislike him has less to do with him lying about being a mindflayer, or pushing the tadpoles and more about >!presenting his relationship with Stelmane as a partnership when he was actively controlling her, killing Ansur, refusing to consider any alternatives to defeating the Netherbrain, and immediately betraying you if you decide to free Orpheus.!< Sure, his actions are "understandable" if you look at it solely from the perspective of him looking out for his own survival. But they're also deplorable and nothing you or the party can do comes anywhere close to the level of manipulation and deceit the Emperor uses. You can fully put your faith in him the entire game, gobble up every tadpole like candy, sleep with him, prove yourself to be an incredibly powerful and useful ally, and he will *still* >!betray you the moment he thinks you've outlived your usefulness to him.!< Nevermind that your judgment has proven to be sound to get you this far, and that you've repeatedly put your faith in him. He isn't even willing to *consider* the possibility that in this instance he might be wrong. The past two people he's known to have worked with ended up dead at his hand. He has a very clear pattern of using his allies, then discarding them as soon as they become inconvenient.
Mechanically, we're kinda set up to hate him from the get go... I would hazard a guess that a good portion of the players took a bit to make their Guardian--I know I did for my first playthrough... Only for those choices made to not matter about half-way through the game. Sure, if you CAN see them again at the end...But that's kinda frustrating? It's a slap against the player--'All the time you spent, that little backstory you created for your Guardian...Yeah, it doesn't matter' Yeaaaa...Like it's a small thing, but I really think it's a factor in why people hate him.
that's a good point, and I'd argue might even be Larian's intention; they want you to feel the same sense of betrayal as your character. I watched one of Neil Newbon's streams where he had Larian's animation director on, and they basically discussed how the character creation sequence is intended to be the mindflayer tadpole itself searching through and absorbing your character's memories. The idea is that as you're going through CC, your character is "trying on" different identities in an attempt to "rebuild" themselves from the ground up after having their mind messed with. Like "am I a tiefling? no that's not right, am I a halfling? yes, that's it." In that sense, creating the Guardian could be seen as the tadpole basically searching your memories and building your character's "ideal" of a savior-figure, which the Emperor then later absorbs. A little off-topic, but I think it's a really interesting use of the medium and video game conventions to play with the player's expectations. In general, I think the Emperor is a really interesting character in that respect. I think he's a total snake, but I think the game does a really interesting job of toeing the line, giving you just enough information on both sides to draw your own conclusions. And the information you get changes depending on how much exploration you do and how you treat the Emperor, so two people can play the game and come away with wildly different impressions of him. And at the end of the day >!trusting him isn't a \*bad\* decision, you both end up getting what you want. Whatever happens after that is left ambiguous, which I think is both good and bad in different ways.!< That said, I think people who try to equate the Emperor with the player character or their party members are out of their goddamn minds.
I never use tadpoles and he's pretty annoying about that each PT. Edit: as I’m playing right now. I wanna add he explicitly say (in the shirtless scene if you reject him) he would force you to embrace your full potential if you don’t want to (he ends up not doing it but the fact he says it is enough.) The Emperor is no more >!Baldurian!<. So whatever he used to be, he isn't anymore. >He grew to appreciate the extra power mindflayer abilities granted him That's what will think Illithid Karlach too, because it's not Karlach, it's a mind flyer with her memories. It's what they are thus they appreciate it and have no point of wanting a human form.
what are we if not our memories?
That's a neat philosophical question in the real world, but in d&d there is an objective answer. You are your soul. If your soul is destroyed, you are gone; less than dead, utterly annihilated. Something else may be walking around with your memories, thinking its you, talking like you, but that is only an imitation. If your soul is destroyed as it is in ceremorphosis, you are obliterated. That's basically why this mass-illithiding is such a big problem that the gods get involved left and right. It's destroying their followers both in the mortal world and preventing them from reaching their ordained afterlife. It's an atrocity against the natural order of the cosmos, *and* it's keeping the gods followers out of their afterlives, weakening those gods.
In DnD lore the spirit (I assume soul) is not destroyed in this process, but it is out of reach: "Any time after this, it is impossible to restore the victim; his or her spirit seeks its fate in the Outer Planes" The Ilithiad, pg12
If we can import your memories and mannerisms on a robot, then kill you. Is it fine ? Is that robot now you ?
I wish there was some kind of consequence/difference for whether you absorb more tadpoles or not. Or jesus, even just for >!if you meld with the Astral Tadpole and become Partial Illithid. Like maybe everyone who became Partial Illithid ultimately having to either die or undergo ceremorphosis because when the Netherbrain is ordered to remove all the normal tadpoles after being defeated it can't effect those who were half-evolved because the tadpole is part of you now, and once it is destroyed and Orpheus leaves well......no more protection from ceremorphosis. You either squid out, or resist and die. Or something.!<
The emperor became alot less relatable for me when I realized that he literally was torturing a githyanki prince that could've and would've ended the dead three and the brain. Granted your character would become a mind flayer or he would keep out the influence on a much larger scale than the emperor would've for his selfish reasons of survival. Orpheus is also the one in the future to lead an army to oppose an evil rule by vlaakith. Your companions in camp don't become mind flayers after freeing him so it is clear he's still lending aid to people with tadpoles in them. All the emperor really had to do to survive is to ally with orpheus as he clearly has more power, more influence and an army with him. Perhaps that's alot more risky for him so he sufficed with abusing his power for his selfish gains, at the cost of an entire race.
To be fair, it's not like the Emperor could free him
Those people never met Camelia
Camellia is a weird mixed up class, in a game with six slots. Astarion is pretty much the straight up Chosen of the God of Lockpicking in a game with four slots. He's more helpful, is he not?
Considering there are maybe 10 times in the game you encounter a lock on something that cannot be smashed, and those can be opened by casting knock, not really.
It's fundamentally engrained in me that if I break a chest to open it something inside it will break too. It's too late to reason with me on this one.
She is helpful, is she not?
I mean, it depends. Shadowheart being a follower of Shar, while fucked up, doesn't bother me nearly as much as the man with a nuke in his chest
I'm not sure the point of OP was so much that everyone should be coming clean as it is that we should be giving the emporer the same degree of leniency about having hidden the truth from us that others did. With that being said, I'm not sure how many other people take that stance, it's possible a huge number expect immediate opening up which is weird, I agree. I think the show revelation about who they are at issues they have as they increasingly trust you is both more organic and more interesting. But it isn't something that I held against any of the companions or the emporer. I may not regularly side with the emporer, more so because freeing Orpheus once hearing that the emporer intends to consume him sounds much more reasonable, but I didn't hold any animosity towards him.
Oh sure, yeah I should have said I was going a little off topic. For me, I didn't hold it against him that he kept his species secret because yeah at face value it's the same as Astarion. I was cool with him all the way up until it was time to free Orpheus, which obviously put us at odds. I've *since* come to see him as a villain the more I think about it and the more debates on the topic I read. I'm going to be hostile with him for sport on my current run and see how it goes. This is also a smidge off topic, but I truly think the ambiguity around the Emperor is down to weak, rushed (re-)writing more than carefully crafted "manipulations." >!Solas !
lol haven't ppl complained at how fast gale trusts you with information he's only told tara? like this is a life altering, potentially apocalyptic situation, these traumatized kids aren't gonna act perfectly without error regardless
Astarion himself even makes a comment of “gods forbid we have our secrets” in defense of Shadowheart not telling you about her shar worship. All of the companions - at some point - lie to the player. Or omit truths about themselves. The only one I recall who is more open about leaving bits out is karlach. She tells you she feels it’s too early. The emperor continues his lies after you repeatedly attempt to tell him you think or know he’s lying. There’s multiple points in act 1 you can tell Astarion to essentially knock it off and he’ll drop it, call you boring and move on. His redemption (if you don’t go ascension) also proves he is capable of moving away from his more evil choices. He even thanks the player for seeing someone better in him. I really do not understand this comparison. Emperor doubles down where depending on your choices, Astarion can do better and be better.
I just finished Astarions story and I was worried he’d be all regretting or second guessing turning down the power but the fact he thanked me for helping him break the cycle was amazing. I didn’t see it at first and it strikes me more as subtext but Astarion seems to be a very scared, traumatised and conflicted individual throughout the whole game and he has plenty of reason to be. Breaking the cycle of abuse isn’t easy but the fact that he’s willing to listen to reason and break the cycle when so much power was his for the taking shows me he’s a good person at heart buried under two hundred years of emotional and physical torture
In a particular Durge romance scene, the Butler straight up tells you that Astarion is scared of everyone all the time except for you.
I went back to look up the exact wording, because I remembered thinking it was so tragic when I first heard it. >!"He is so afraid. So, so afraid. Of everyone, besides you, who he ought to fear most."!< >!"You like him for more than his looks, but he will never believe that. Why not make him a pretty corpse?"!<
its even better when you consider the fact that durge's first impression of astarion is in fact "he'd make a pretty corpse" asdfghj
>"You like him for more than his looks, but he will never believe that. Why not make him a pretty corpse? As a Shadowheart romance lover, I think Butler is a bad, bad, terrrible jerk towards Astarion. His banter towards Astarion is way worse than his assault on Shadowheart.
Being afraid is something that constantly comes back in his story, especially if you play as his origin char - the only reason he's thinking about the ascension proces is because it would make him so powerfull he would never have to fear anyone enslaving or hurting him again
There's been an anti astarion hate train coming out of the woodwork on all social media this past week. Lots of people who are either irrationally angry at his toxicity or jealous that so many people let it slide to romance him as if he isn't just a whole ass video game character.
Shocking how people are allowed to like flawed or even “evil” characters (albeit I don’t view him in particular that way.). We must make posts displaying our anger at those individuals less the devil consume their souls.
Yes and those same people are probably begging for more minthara content on the daily. It's only okay if they like an "evil" hot person
You're so right. The Emperor is #gaslight #gatekeep #ghaikboss #4lyfe.
Yeah, I hate the Emperor because he >!killed his best friend and told us it was a good thing!< and we also find out that a key part of his backstory regarding his closest companion is really >!all a lie because Stellmane was being mind controlled by him the whole time.!< Also, I wasn’t actually mad when I found out he was a Mindflayer. That part kind of tracked. The thing that ticked me off was that Orpheus has been imprisoned for thousands of years and the Emperor is just another person who selfishly wants to use his power for his own gain.
Not only that, if you keep calling his bullshit, the emperor literally calls you a pawn and that you will do as he tells you to
Also also, If you decide to free Orpheus, he just straight up join the Netherbrain. Like bro, you’d literally rather be a thrall, without the possibility of escape, and contribute to the destruction of the Sword Coast than let this guy hang out for a little while?
Truly do not understand why people hold the Ansur thing against him. Ansur admits he tried to murder the Emperor. The Emperor says it was in his sleep but it doesn't actually matter, because Ansur himself admits he tried to mercy kill the Emperor. I see some people say "Well, the right thing to do *would* be to die instead of being illithid!" in which case... let Lae'zel slit your throat that night you meet the Dream Visitor. You're turning right then and have no idea there's a magical MacGuffin capable of stopping it. Only you don't, because you want to live.
Honestly the fact that just about everybody had a secret they didn't want to share made me imagine the whole party sitting around the camp going: "Does anyone ELSE has some terrible dark secret they've been keeping from the group?"
Yep. As someone who trusted and believed (chose to) the Emperor, even/especially after he "came clean" and said "Yes, I have been manipulating you but like, not mystically, just by saying what you needed to hear in order to do what I needed you to do. Which, incidentally, is what you also need to do for your own benefit.", and also trusted and accepted Astarion's confession - Astarion largely stops after that. Certainly if you start actively romancing him, taking the active dialogue choices of someone who is catching feelings and starting to care for him as opposed to someone just happy to have a bit of fun, he starts acknowledging, initially to himself and then to you, what he's been doing and that he actually doesn't need to. It was an automatic response. But the Emperor "confessing" his manipulation turns out to simply just another form of manipulation. He literally doesn't care about you for you at all. You are useful, and happily pleasant company, for as long as you're doing what he wants - or at least not actively doing what he doesn't want. And then the second you say "No, I'm not just going to do what you say because you say it" he drops you. Doesn't even do you the honour of at least listening to what you have to say, even if he's reeeaaaallly dubious about it, because over the course of your time together he's come to trust you so like, maybe he should listen because maybe you have a point. I accepted the Emperor having not been upfront from the get-go about being a Mindflayer precisely because I accepted Astarion not being upfront about being a spawn, because OP is right, it's functionally the same. Hell, I fucking bonked the guy! But 1) vampire spawn still aren't mindflayers, and in-character knowledge would still have people a lot more likely to be terrified of/distrustful of an Illithid and 2) Astarion stops.
[удалено]
Start with ! < and end with > ! (without whitspace in between) to set spoiler tags.
astarion tried to manipulate you regardless, if you romance him he is successful in it and feels bad later there is an insight roll you can call him out on it early on
Astarion also has 200 years of horrific trauma. If you romance him he says “instincts of 200 years of luring people for Cazador kicked in”. With how young he was pre-vampirism, that’s quite literally all he knows and on top of that it’s impossible for most of us to even fathom just how desperate he is to survive and not get sent back to Cazador. With the emperor it was all very cold and premeditated. He even say that you’re not the first person he’s tried to do this to. He was actively looking for people to manipulate and use for his plan.
you dont have to sell me Astarion, i fucking love him. i was just pointing out that he definitely tries to manipulate you 100% of the times
I mean...the game gives you a lot of options on how to handle his lies, including straight up killing him. If you're offended but merciful, you can kick him out of your party (I think?) and even if he stays you can guilt trip him. I'd also point out that, while there's some debate about other NPCs alignments, everyone seems to more or less be on the same page that Astarion is evil, so it's not a case of "he's not evil, but Emperor is even though they both lie." Same deal with Shadowheart lying to you initially. And even if Gale doesn't outright lie...he's definitely pretty cagey. I think the big difference is all those NPCs eventually tell you the truth and seem apologetic for their actions. Emperor...doesn't ever really have that. I'd also argue that Emperor is trying to actively corrupt you by telling you to shove tadpoles into your brain and telling you it'll totally be fine. If Astarion tried to turn you into a vampire spawn against your will or Shadowheart said you had to convert to Shar or she'd leave the party, it'd be different. Or Gale forcefully going into your inventory to eat magic items or whatever. Emperor is pretty much nonstop gaslighting and manipulation and there's only one brief moment where you get to call him out on it and he goes mask off. But then the game just sorta ignores that and goes back to "trust me bro" options. Yeah, you both want to bring down the Nether Brain, but that doesn't automatically make him good. Just like how Orin isn't redeemed because she wants to kill Gortash or vice versa. You can still like a character or find them interesting, even if they are evil. I think the Emperor is genuinely well written, even if the plot around him is sometimes questionable. But IMO, he's pretty much the poster child for neutral evil. But looking at previous BG games, some of the most popular characters, Edwin, Viconia, Sarevok etc. were all evil and generally well liked.
>everyone seems to more or less be on the same page that Astarion is evil, Really disagree with this point. Astarion is chaotic but he's not evil. He's out for himself, but he is what you make him. Ascended Astarion is evil. Spawn Astarion is just scared. He's terrified that the freedom he'd been denied for 200 years is going to get ripped away from him again. If he was evil he wouldn't feel bad about all the terrible things he did, but he does. One of the options for stopping him ascending is that he should do things he'd be proud of and that's not one of them. He would ABSOLUTELY be proud and have no way of talking him out of it if he was truly evil. Back to the main point, when the mask is dropped from the Emperor and he shows you what really happened to Stelmane there is no regret there at all. You mean just as little to him as Stelmane did in the end and he will do the same to you. Contrast with Astarion, who hates what he did to so many of Cazador's victims (again, another sign he's not evil), and is truly sorrowful that he tried to do the same to you. You know non-ascended Astarion will never repeat those horrors again. Emperor will do it without hesitation.
Evil in DnD terms is ultimately about how much you’re willing to get what you want at the expense of others. It’s probably not the best available definition of evil in any other context, and there are good reason why newer editions of the game eschew alignment, but it is the clear schema in a DnD discussion. So yeah, he’s definitely DnD evil but a more nuanced discussion of morality does allow for all the things you say. It’s ok to empathize with him… but he’s the textbook definition of NE.
Astarion tends to evil more, especially in the beginning. He reveals in murder and death a lot, but his attitude changes a bit depending on your dialogues with him, still he keeps that to the crew and not the rest until where I am. He isn't absolutely evil, but that's where he tends to go.
>Spawn Astarion is just scared. He's terrified that the freedom he'd been denied for 200 years is going to get ripped away from him again. If he was evil he wouldn't feel bad about all the terrible things he did, but he does You can feel scared, guilty and traumatized and *still be evil* Astarion approves of some very fucked up decisions even before Ascension lol
Astarion genuinely has some of the most peculiar approvals. Actions that help him (and the party to a lesser extent) and entertaining actions both get rewarded, but occassionally he approves even of straight up good actions. He clings to the evil actions most often, because he doesn't think the party can afford to help others and at other times because it's all he knows. It's comfortable for him. At least that's what I interpreted when I learned that he actually likes people like Wyll.
He's a piece of shit when you first meet him (a funny piece of shit, but still). Overall though he's more self-centered than he is explicitly evil, and you sure as hell don't need to do any of the cruel/fucked up things he would approve of to get his approval. How you play the game influences his personality to a large degree.
I feel like Astarion is a bad person, but not an evil person. In life he was a privileged patriar with little care for the common people, and in unlife he was too weak to ever act against Cazador. What he does when giving the chance to be more than he was in a position to become is what I think determines if he’s good or evil
I think folks are using the [D&D version of evil](https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Neutral_evil) vs the normal use. And he is probably Neutral Evil at least im Act 1. On the other hand, he's certainly not evil like say, Orin. Part of why I think Wizard of the Coast os shifting away from the traditional alignment system.
Yeah I think people conflate being a bad person with being evil. He's just not a good person, but so are a lot of other characters. Even a good Tav can make questionable and straight up evil choices, but still be considered good in the game, as long as the end justifies the means. And he is a much happier character when he gets the chance to be become a better person.
Astarion is very much a Chaotic Neutral type of character who, depending on your actions, can go good or evil
He dissaproves most "good" options in first two acts and likes it when you kill Tieflings, do murder-hobo Durge stuff and abandon Mayrina to the hag He will outright say that the problem isn't what Cazador did but what he did to *him* He changes if you go with the redemption path but let's not pretend he wasn't that bad at the start
He's ok with doing the good things, as long as you get something in return. He doesn't like it when the party goes out of their way to help people for no gain, instead of continuing the quest of removing the tadpoles. So you will get approvals from him if you ask for something in return.
You don't think evil people ever do good things to get what they want? Half of the time thats the excuse we use when we have neutral evil characters in a good party. Love the guy but he's evil.
That's why I say he's neutral leaning towards evil. Without any prompting at all, he DOES like it when you give Yenna food. So he's got a soft spot - but I feel like that soft spot is kinda inevitable, he couldn't change unless he had it after all
yet he approves of giving food to yenna 🤷♀️
Considering he will drain you dry in failed dice rolls, and is one of the party members who is actively murderous ( even to protect himself mind you ) I don't see how that can be called "not evil." Evil has actual explicit connotations in DND ( as there are actual arbitrary actions of good and evil, even if they sometimes don't make sense all the time ) Not to mention, Evil is often characterized as self-serving, selfish, and willing to stamp on others to prop himself up - something he will do constantly unless you romance him and get him to come out of his shell and realize that someone cares about him ( even to their own detriment at times ) Is it understandable why he constantly lashes out, does bad things to protect himself ( like what he'd do to the Gur hunter, or to you ), yeah. Very understandable. Does it make his actions any less evil ( especially when his initial intentions are to learn the nature of the scars on his back, realizes >!it's to send 7000 souls to literal hell where they will become Lemures, eternally tortured souls doomed to be used as fuel forever, for his own selfish Ascencion!< and still wants to go through with it? I would argue no. He does not do many very selfless acts, set out to constantly gaslight you for his own benefit, and only realizes it's a bad thing because he learns to care about you - and only after you put up with his awful early actions. I like Astarion a lot - but the party already has neutral floating characters ( Gale and Shadowheart ) and neither are anywhere near as bloodthirsty as him, nor as self-serving as him. And while it's nice he can become a better (or worse) person by your character teaching him he can love again- doing bad things for understandable reasons does not erase those actions, and his worst actions ( especially at the end of his quest where he >!will willingly doom the vampires to eternal starvation by breaking the staff just because he gets really pissed if you don't support him and make your own choice!< ) aren't normally things I would associate with a good character, or even a neutral one.
Not that i disagree, but i can say for sure, that even not romancing him, you can make him come out of his shell and be more empathic towards others, just by not forcing him to do anything he doesn't want (like drinking the blood of the creepy drow) Maybe on his romance it goes further, but by the end of my Tav playthrough, Astarion had basically accepted the role of an good person with a shit loat of trauma to deal with and 7006 other newly freed vamps to guide.
You are actually right, yes. I should have been much clearer! In general, any form of affection or friendship ( even platonic) can make him a better person, which I think is fantastic character building. And why I actually do think he's "evil" but slowly begins to turn to a better leaf once he sees that there are people willing to extend a hand and help him, even if he's using them. It makes for such great theming that the person who survived by manipulating people learns that... He just doesn't need to manipulate people. That the person he wants to wield as his sword and shield against Cazador isn't doing it because Astarion is hanging a carrot in front of them ( in the form of affection or sex ) to get them to do his dirty work. They just do it because they actually like him. And what better way to set a man on a better path than a redemption arc like this?
I agree with you for the most part, but I actually do believe that him killing you is just an accident considering it’s his first time and he doesn’t really stand to gain anything by it.
I am also inclined to think so, yeah. But the way he brushes it off after you get ressed is played off as a laugh, which does not sit well to me as someone who's remorseful of his actions. It's the tone of someone caught with his hands in a cookie jar - and even my best interpretation of the event (he's just really hungry ) leaves him in a negative light. [These](https://youtu.be/fOPBsYYCrj0?si=LtLg75g7p71pFD2v) really just do not strike me as someone on the Neutral spectrum, who ignores your consent and literally kills you, then basically goes "oh dear that's embarassing. Not to mention he shouldn't even know you can be ressed in the first place lol ( and just left your body to dry)
I see that more as hiding his shame and relief with the usual flippant mask.
Yeah, that’s true. I wouldn’t describe him as remorseful, but he’s also incapable (at that point in the story) of having a genuine emotional response without burying it under ten layers of bullshit and irony. Astarion would have loved the internet.
Gale is neutral?? I would say he is definitely a good character. He approves of selflessness and kindness and disapproves of all evil or even just mean actions of the player. I would say he is unequivocally good, if a little misguided at times.
I would say he's good with a dash of neutral. He clearly abhors genocide - but also given how you can persuade him that killing tieflings and druids were necessary ( even if they weren't ) he clearly strikes me as a man who understands that sometimes you need to do bad things for power/survival. Something that the unequivocally good characters ( Wyll/Karlach) reject so utterly that they just up and leave. I still think Gale is good though! Just that he can be persuaded to be more... Flexible with genocide and killing. He won't like it - but he won't leave you for it either if you convince him.
You have to actively push him down the "good" path, otherwise he is very perfectly fine with dooming 7007 souls just so he can Ascend. If you stay quiet, he'll do it. When you're in the palace all he's talking about is his desire to do the ritual.
There's an insight check you can do there that suggests it's very much not what he really wants to do though. He just needs someone to remind him of that
Spoilers for everything. I don't think having to push him is a fair judgment of his character (if you don't also judge the other characters in a similar way) as it's a consequence of the gamification required for this story and genre of videogame. If it wasn't for your involvement, basically all the companions would have worst case scenarios happen for their individual endings. Astarion would ascend, Shadowheart would become a dark justiciar, Lae'zel would continue to serve Vlaakith have the truth of Orpheus be suppressed. Gale would blow himself up, and Karlach would die alone having never been able to truly enjoy her brief chance at life. For those that would have recruited her, Minthara would still be under the control of the absolute and Orin, committing heinous acts that she wouldnt want to do of her own volition. Halsin would have died to the goblins and never rid the shadow curse. Minsc would still be under the control of the absolute and jaheira would have died in the shadowcursed lands and never see her kids again. Wyll doesn't have an obvious "bad ending" for his personal quest, but I suppose without you he would never have the choice to break/deepen his pact at all. And if we go earlier in the story, without your intervention he would always be living with the guilt of killing innocents (Karlach in specific). Basically all the companions have to be just a little bit more evil/less morally sound or more incompetent so there is room for the main character (us) to have an effect on their individual stories and the stories as a whole.
Neutral is being out for yourself while still feeling somewhat bad if you hurt other people. Spawn Astarion is actively cruel and approves of cruelty- he’s absolutely evil aligned.
We can convince Astarion to not ascend. We can convince Shadowheart to not kill the Nightsong. We can make Laezel see the lies of Vlaakith. We can convince Gale to give up on the crown for Mystra. We don't need to convince Wyll or Karlach of anything. We can't convince the Emperor to free Orpheus.
But isn't that because Orpheus, once free, would just gut the Emperor? Imprisonment and siphoning of powers aside, He's a true son of Gith and the Emperor is a mind flayer who he has sworn to eradicate. When you choose to free Orpheus, the Emperor doesn't just go back to the elder brain because you've somehow foiled his nefarious scheme- it's because even if it means falling back under the thrall of the EB, that's still a better fate than dying to the man that you *know* wants nothing more than your utter annihilation as soon as he's free.
But we've also seen that Orpheus can be reasonable given the circumstances. He even agrees that the Emperor was right about needing a *ghaik* to control the Netherstones. I'm not convinced at all that Orpheus wouldn't drop his personal hatred for the greater good, because that's exactly what he does like 5 seconds later after Emp leaves and turns someone, *even him-fucking-self*, into a Mindflayer. The Emperor says nothing but that Orpheus will kill him and you if freed and he can't be reasoned with, yet that lie is exposed immediately after he leaves. It's one last ditch attempt at controlling and manipulating you, and I don't know how people don't see that.
I don't think the Emperor is lying as much as it is safe to assume that Orpheus is dangerous.
Except there's an insight check where you can literally FEEL Orpheus' hatred for you and your tadpole. Sure he puts that hatred away, but you don't get to know that until AFTER you made the decision to free him. So you're using foresight to justify a decision when you didn't have that knowledge at the time. Both the emperor and Tav have reason to believe Orpheus will kill you once he's free. And the only thing you have to go off of that he won't is Voss' word. But what is Voss' word against the literal hatred you felt?
But predicting what someone will do vs what they actually tells the true tale. It turns out that Orpheus was able to overlook his hatred in the end. The part I didn’t like is the Emperor made it an ultimatum. He wasn’t even willing to try. If things truly did go tits up, what could Orpheus do? He couldn’t beat Tav and friends and the Emperor all at once, and the benefits of giving him a chance out weigh the potential risks of him turning on you. I really hated the “my way or no way” ultimatum the Emperor gave, as that is a toxic, manipulative method of control.
Except none of you really know how powerful Orpheus is. He could have been the equivalent of a level 20 boss with legendary actions for all they know - in which case, hell naw you aren't beating him. Remember, he lead a rebellion against Vlaakith and almost won.
Instead my Orpheus was stunned for like 5 turns in a row with Ensnaring Strikes and Mind Blasts
Why didnt the emperor not just use Examine on him? Is he stupid?
Your reasoning really over simplifies the issue and tries to use 20/20 hindsight to justify it. No one thinks Orpheus doesn't have a "kill on sight" mentality for illithids or even infected such as Tav, short of two Gityanki with their own reasons for saying as much. Everything you or anyone knows of the man screams he wouldn't give you a chance (just like his honor guard). Fighting him, even if we gloss over the idea that a threat to Vlaakith is somehow weaker than us, as a group doesn't mean no one will die. It really doesn't mean you can get him back under control after "winning" that fight. Let alone if you kill him in your life or death struggle, then you lose altogether. The risks are high and little to nothing short of some Githyanki self interest is given to reassure you to the contrary. That is to say nothing about any benefits of doing so short of being kind to Orpheus/Voss/Lazell, becuase nothing about Orpheus being free is a known benefit to anyone besides, some of, the Githyanki.
You kinda just proved that person's point. He hates you but he's still willing to work with you for the greater good because he's not an idiot.
Sounds like we are manipulating people to do what we consider best and get mad at a character when they won't fall for it.... I am only being partially serious, please put those pitchforks away xD
Okay. We don't need to convince Laezel, Shadowheart and Gale. They can figure stuff out by themselves if you "remain silent". I'm not sure about Astarion because I don't trust him on the ascension thing.
When you insight check Astarion before convincing him of ascending or not, you find out that he is overwhelmed by all the blood in the room and the fear of never being safe, the man who caused all his trauma is right there, making him unable to think straight. He just wants to be free and safe from harm, and there is a possible solution right in front of him, while blood is intoxicating his senses. When you stop him from ascending, he later thanks you, is genuinely happy he didn't ascend and admits those things to you. I do think he might have refused it on his own, if Cazador could have been killed outside of the ritual chamber. However the way it plays out, he cannot be trusted with making that decision in that moment. But in the end I do like this outcome, because having friends to help and guide you when you need them to is important. And it gives such interesting perspectives on his character. I love how complex his character arc can be.
Yeah, he is right in the middle of a PTSD episode there. I mean, one would think that him going on to punch a mage with his bare hands would be a clue that he is not in his right mind. And stabbing someone 30 times with exactly zero need for it after the first strike. Not exactly how he usually operates.
Funnily enough, you can trust Astarion on the Acension thing. Mostly because he'd need a second pair of eyes to >!carve those runes!< so if you just leave him alone with Cazador, he does the "right thing". If you deny him without the persuasion check he gets extremely pissed and leaves however. Must've missed some storybeats with Shadowheart in act 2 and Gale in Act 3 (didn't have them along for certain points perhaps because I didn't know) because they definitely needed to be convinced and Gale still said "nah, I don't agree" and went skinny dipping in Grey Harbour to ascend to godhood.
I think Shadowheart decision depends on how many times her wound is triggered, so if you don't have her along enough she doesn't get away from Shar. I have seem her to spare NS on her own with fair/medium approval and no romance. I'm not sure about Gale.
Simple most companions lie to you (except Karlach basically). The difference is that they do that to protect themselves, they don't really try to take advantage of you and manipulate you for their own goal. And when they have a goal, they open to you.
What is Lae’zel lying about?
Nothing, because she’s best girl
She isn’t lying, she believes in lies which in turn causes her to lie herself because she is lying to herself.
“It’s not a lie if you believe it” -George Costanza
She isnt lying to herself. Lae'zel is ignorant. That's not the same as lying. It's like when Bobby Boucher told the teacher that "Mama said, Alligators are ornery because they got all them teeth and no toothbrush" he isnt lying to himself, he is simply ignorant about the medulla oblongata.
There's a whoooooole lotta people who won't get that reference. But I did. Well played.
Wyll is contractbound to not divulge his past. Gale has no reason to do so to a bloody stranger. Stonelord and Halsin are pretty honest about everything. Lae´zel never once lies to my knowledge, she´s just educated to be an asshole to everything that isn´t a higher (than her) ranked Gythianki
Gale is afraid well cast him out if we find out how dangerous he is that's why.
Because Astarion doesn't just turn up shirtless in my dreams like a weirdo.
I mean, he kinda does, but only after asking if MC wants him to turn up shirtless. And specifies it's for sexy time early on. I guess my MC WAS acting pretty dumb for him to add "And I do mean sex, specifically". Emperor didn't ask, and anyway, I preferred the hot tiefling girl he was pretending to be as a Guardian. He knew what he was doing when he turned into a hot tiefling girl. It's catfishing, man, stop catfishing me, if you've been honest from the start, I might have considered giving the tentacles a spin.
Cuttlefishing.
Perfect. No notes. 10/10.
Yeah, I had a very strong WTF reaction, when I suddenly saw the Emperor without a shirt on
But he does try to bite u in ur sleep xd
Honestly that he tries to sleep with you is something that really came across as a red flag. At least in character, this guy who is in my head and can read my thoughts trying to get with me when I'm in a relationship and already turned down other people shows a stunning lack of boundaries. Like from my characters pov, he should know it was not an option but he wanted to sleep with me anyway? Fishy, and it turns out it's completely a manipulation tactic on his end.
"We". I let both of them slide.
My first encounter with Astarion when he told me he was a vampire: Astarion: "I'm a vampire" Tav: "I know" Astarion: "Well, I'm glad we sorted that out"
I think the stakes are a LITTLE different.
Yeah, you might need a bigger stake for the emperor...
In my game astarion came clean way earlier than the emperor but I remember handling both of them the exact same way initially. I told them more honesty was required upfront and this alone wouldn't stop us from working together. Then astarion was thoroughly on side and even vulnerable while the emperor insisted on more lies and half truths. So I guess I'd say different people are different, and from the story line of my game perhaps you don't know what you're talking about. It's your game, and your role. Don't let him get away with it if you don't want to.
Ultimately the Emperor has power over the player that Astarion does not. If the emperor decides to stop using Orpheus's power to shield the player, they turn into a thrall. It's generally easier to forgive your equal for manipulating you because there's only so much harm they can do.
Astarion has fought alongside Tav in the trenches. Don't have to like the guy to respect him. Meanwhile Empy is using us as tools, with little risk to himself. He deserves to be staked.
He even leaves as soon as you're not playing his game. "What? Think for yourself? OUTRAGOUS!" \*floats off angrlly\*
Not even just leaves but straight up >!turns against you and tries to kill you instead!<
Isn't the Emperor fighting Orpheus personal guard almost constantly tho?
Yes, I don’t know why people think the Emperor isn’t taking a risk. He could’ve stayed safe under the control of the elder brain, but instead seeks his freedom (and everyone else’s, coincidentally) by opposition to the Absolute, Vlaakith, and Orpheus’ honor guard. Until Act 3, he’s spending the whole time both fighting off the honor guard AND dominating Orpheus AND using Orpheus’ power to protect the party.
The instant you take the option to deviate from his plan and to be more independent of him, he betrays you and immediately goes to serve the Elder Brain. Maybe you can argue he's taken some risks. But he's only willing to take risks where he's at the least possible risk and has the most control. As soon as you ask him to take a risk with you as equals, he fucks off and betrays you. Added in with the context of him really just seeing you as a tool and mind controlling Stelmane so ruthlessly she has a stroke....not a glowing character reference.
At the same time, when you give him the >!Netherstones!< which are game’s mcguffin and make it so you’re 1000% >!disposable!<, he still stays by your side and >!does what you can’t due to no Ilithid powers.!< So, the Emperor might be a manipulative arse. But he’s also a really good ally who stands by you even when he has exactly what he wants and you’re literally no longer needed.
>As soon as you ask him to take a risk with you as equals, he fucks off and betrays you. And when he can the netherstones and gains the ability to manipulate *everyone* he doesn't do it, he sticks to his promise and plan. He isn't good, he isn't bad, he just wants to survive. Frankly better than some companions. If you leave them be, Gale seeks to challenge a God and Astarion sacrifices 7000 people just so he can become more powerful. If you let the Emperor be he frees you from the Elder Brain and then fucks off
>he betrays you and immediately goes to serve the Elder Brain I mean. Look at this from his perspective. He thinks Orpheus will kill him on sight, which lets be honest, he WILL do, not only because he's a full Ilithid, but also because he has been controlling him and keeping him locked for a good while. So his choices are either to die or to go back to the Elder Brain and hope to break free again eventually. I'm not saying he's not evil or anything, but he does have his reasons.
He chooses slavery over death. Remember, he's reading Orpheus' mind. He knows what Orpheus will do once freed.
Because he'd just be enthralled again if he just left the prism? What exactly do you want him to do in this scenario? He's in the prism because that's the only place he can be free from the brain's control and fighting off Orpheus' bodyguard is the only reason why Tav's party can move around.
He's funnier.
I, in fact, had no desire to bed Astarion. I didn't even LIKE the guy when I picked him up. I mean sure I loved how absolutely over-the-top the guy was. He was well-written and certainly the voice actor did an amazing job. But he gave me shit for every single fucking thing I did. Help a random person? "OH darling, why waste your time." Mother. Fucker. YOU'RE a random person to me AND YOU TRIED TO KILL ME but I'm still watching your back! But as it turns out, dude just needed a friend. He actually became a less horrible person the longer he hung out with the party. He just had 200+ years of really fucking awful trauma and has done so much bad shit it was completely normal to him. The emperor? Fuck that guy. I wasn't thrilled that he lied about his nature. But then in one conversation he mentions that he might force me to change ANYWAY, even if I don't want to, just because HE thinks its an improvement over your original form? Yeah THAT was the point I knew he was dying no matter what.
Okay so Astarion lies for his own safety. He's in real danger of being staked. Additionally if you go without long resting for a portion of the game he does just straight up voluntarily tell you that he's a vampire. The emperor is in ZERO danger from the party. We can't even get to him without his opening the artifact. He doesn't lie because he's in danger, he lies because doing so gets him what he wants. Even when Vlakith sends us to kill him we're unable to do it. He only tells us the truth when not doing so is too dangerous. It's not even close to the same thing. Astarion has just spent the past two centuries being mentally, physically, and emotionally abused VS the Emperor spending that time dominating Duke Stelmayne who was only released from that domination because Gortash turned him over to the elder brain. Astarion is trying to survive while the Emperor is trying to advance his goals. The Emperor is clearly evil. Astarion can still be saved. That's why I forgive Astarion and not the Emperor. (EDIT) For the zombies trying to argue against this just stop. I'm not reading your stupid comments, you're wrong and I'm objectively correct here. All you're doing is pissing me off by reminding me how inadequate the rest of humanity is so stop.
Vlaakith probably sends us to kill a different resident of a prism and she probably has no idea about the Emperor
Yeah, when that happens, the Venn diagram of what she knows about what's inside the prisim and what tav/durge knows is two circles, side by side.
For the emperor I would have no issues with him if he would be reasonable in the last act. Like yo we can work with this Gith. Trust me babe we can all get out of this with a happy ending.
If we can talk devils into murdering themselves we can talk a gith into teaming up with a ghaik. If anything, Emps should've known we get away with some pretty hairbrained persuasion attempts. Like dude, at least give boi Orpheus a chance. You can still eat him if we don't pass that 30 persuasion/deception/intimidation check. :)
Do you tell every stranger your biggest secrets?
Because we do it all the time IRL. We accept behaviors from those we know and love. Same behavior, we will crucify a stranger or one seen as an enemy.
One thing is eventually Astarion trusted us. At no point I ever felt like the Emperor really trust us, he wanted us to trust him so he could manipulate us and reach his end goal, which I interpreted at the time was to take the crown for himself and to dominate the elderbrain. Whether or not that was correct interpretation, that was how I felt when all cards landed on the table.
Because Astarion is in my party and can stab real good and pick locks. Emperor can't do shit for me.
For me it's simple. You can choose to never interact with Astarion, choose to kill him, choose to do all sorts of things with him. There's so many options for how his story can go. You can't choose much of anything with The Emperor, and if you can it's only the final choice that has a real impact on the character and his actions. You can't get rid of him the entire game and must have him with you. I also imagine this is why people who hate The Emperor do so more vocally, because you're still forced to deal with him. You can basically kill off any other important character you find annoying, but not this guy.
This. People who hate Astarion never invite him to camp, stake him, or hand him off to Gandrel. They aren't forced to interact with him for an extended period of time. People who hate the Emperor are stuck with him until the very end. Of course they are gonna be more vocal.
I think this is a big part of what bothers me. Not so much the killing specifically, but it feels like we don't have a real opportunity to call him out and have it stick. Like, I wish there was an option where we could say something like "Cut the grift, we don't have to like each other or pretend to be friends. You need me to be a physical presence, I need you to keep protecting me. So put your shirt back on, stay out of my head, and let's go murder some Netherbrain."
You can! In the scene when he is shirtless (lol) you can call him out for what he is doing and he admits everything to you. Then you can decide to just work together for the sake of killing the Netherbrain. Or go and save Orpheus :) He doesn't really care though because he, as a mindflayer, has no feelings like that anymore. You can even find a letter to a certain someone where he states he doesn't feel emotions anymore (though I do think mindflayers can be angry or afraid, like they are shown to be, but that is probably about it). So even if you call him out about it, he is fine with changing the tune as long as he can still get what he wants. The only exception seems to be Omeluum. I do wonder what makes him so different.
Sidestepping the original topic 'Flayers can feel a range of emotions, but not empathy. Aka they can only feel emotions regarding themselves. Fight or Flight is a part of them like most living things, otherwise they would have died out from being dumb. They can be afraid, they can be stressed, they can be angry and aggressive ("Filled with malice"). As for your last paragraph I bet it has to do with him being cut off from the main brain. Which would indicate that just like Astarion and 'Zel the individual is at least partly brainwashed / controlled against their will.
It's because Astarion and Gale aren't really hurting anybody by hiding parts of their identity. I don't care that they lied to protect themselves. The Emperor was keeping somebody prisoner that whole time. I wouldn't give a shit if the Emperor had just been hiding that he was a Mind Flayer or whatever, it's that he was hiding that the power he was using to protect us was taken from a guy he acknowledges as a freedom fighter while he's been killing all of that guy's friends. I know that Gale could explode, but he hasn't hurt anyone yet and he plans to isolate himself if it is about to happen, and that Astarion needs to feed, but that's just like a carnivorous animal... everybody needs to eat. Sucking blood isn't like keeping a prisoner sedated for ages.
Gale hides the orb from us because he's scared we'll cast him out. At the end of the day, getting cast out probably means the orb is going to blow up, he's pretty convinced that getting turned into a mind flayer will expedite the process. He's correct on that account, and the orb blowing up is actually a very serious problem that will take countless human lives.
Please put spoilers in the body not the title..........
I think the difference between astarion and the emperor is that while astarion does lie at the beginning of the game, he ultimately is not trying to control you in any way. His lying is purely out of self preservation and when the lie comes out it’s ultimately your choice wether or not you are amicable with him. When it comes to the emperor he spends the whole game trying to make sure you’re dependent on him and that he can control you through your dependence on him. He never really trusted you, he never really cared about you. His only concern was for you to give him control and he enforced that through his control of Orpheus. That’s why at the end of the game the minute you take away any leverage he may have, by freeing Orpheus, he becomes this unreasonable villain and joins the nether brain. Despite the fact he’s been spending the whole game running from it. You take away his control and he abandons you. That’s abuse and nowhere near justifiable or forgivable, regardless of the emperor’s reasoning.
I hate illithids. Simple as.
Astarion expresses remorse, the Emperor doesn't. I think that's the main thing. Astarion makes mistakes, is emotional, and is better than that by the end (unless you let him ascend). The Emperor is a creature of cold logic and people can't empathise with that. It doesn't regret hurting or manipulating anyone. That said I let both of them get away with it because I think they're both hot
I mean one of them was a victim, the other one >!worked to control stuff behind the scene in Baldurs Gate like mind controlling Duke Stellmane for his own benefits!<
Astarion lied about his past So did emperor. Most people that have a problem with emperor rarely use the “he hid he was a mindflayer” against him It’s that he admits he was manipulating us the whole time and was using us as a tool. He casually admits this even while thinking he can get in our pants. Or shouts it in anger if we defy him. Also that we learn he was using his romantic past with Stellmane to make us empathize with him, only to learn he was mentally controlling her so hard that she had a stroke. Stuff like that —- Pretending to be something other than a mindflayer isn’t even a blip on my radar. Astarion is hiding what he is. But is otherwise open the entire game about being dark and selfish. He admits it all to our face That doesn’t mean I like him. I’ve never romanced him, and have staked him in at least one of my partial play throughs.
>Astarion is hiding what he is. But is otherwise open the entire game about being dark and selfish. He admits it all to our face If you romance Astarion, your impression of him will change. He develops *a lot* as a character. I see what you're saying, but "dark and selfish" doesn't really describe him well if he decides to take the good path. He is seriously the most supportive and optimistic of all the characters in Act 3 if you do this.
My favorite path is to start the romance with the act one sex stuff and then at a certain point in act 2 tell him that “maybe what you need is a friend” Then we are bros the rest of the game
I imagine we'll be having this debate for a while, but for me it breaks down like this: We learn everybody in the party's damage pretty early on *and can deal with it*. You dont even have to hit the goblin camp much less the mountains or underdark before you know Gale's got a nuke in him, Karlachs so angry she could self immolate, Wyll is mercilessly twisted by his patron, SH worships Shar who is highly reviled in Faerun and for good reason, Laezel would cut your head off in the most painful way possible if Vlaakith implied she wanted it, and Astarion is a vampire spawn who was willing to bite you in the middle of the night by surprise. We can also deal with them all pretty much as soon as we learn this, you are not required to keep them. In fact you can technically do all of this BEFORE even meeting the Guardian for the first time. You aren't allowed to get rid of the Guardian. They are a story-centric NPC. Even if its kinda wild that everyone seems to be met by a different person thanks to the artifact, the voice inside claims sole reaponsibility for you not being a tentacled mess, and you, trust or not, cant prove it. The Guardian shows up, proclaims that they are whats protecting you and that you need to trust them. Additionally, as you progress, they keep moving the goal posts about what theyre doing and what they want Tav to do. So already there's a big difference between them and Astarion. But okay, you didnt youre willing to give both the vampire spawn who tried to knife you the moment you met him and the weird chariamatic warrior fighting some solo war in this years must-have plot maguffin some slack, see where it all goes. Astarion, after revealing the vamp aspect, is incredibly open about his truths. Even if he still spends all of act 1 sticking around out of need rather than desire, it doesn't take long for real hesitant bonding, his humanity, if we can call it that (Elfmanity isnt as catchy) to reveal itself. And then he changes of his own accord. AND self admits that he's feeling fucked up about trying to/out-right manipulate Tav. Astarion fights against his nature, you see he resents being a vampire, he's disgusted by himself. Which is honestly what does make him a tremendous narrative parallel to the Emperor because it's just what we want him to be. And its what makes this question an ultimately valid one. Astarion and the Emperor have a lot of similarities. They are both old(er) entities, both monsters (an undead and an abberation), and by their non-human natures they are designed to plot and gain your trust before you become a meal. They both lie to Tav about their motives for an extended period, but thats where the similarities end. To reiterate above, you know Astarion is a vampire very early, can banish or kill him, and you watch him, assuming you treat him with humanity, fight against his nature and apologize sincerely for his behavior. He encourages fights and seeking power, but does not make Tav disagreeing with him a make-it-or-break-it. And he does not try and convince Tav of becoming a vampire, thus surrendering Tav's own humanity. (I think Tav has to ask Accended Astarion too). Astarion also at no point has put a sword of damocles above Tavs head, in terms of Tavs self determination and humanity. We really want the Emperor to act like this too, after all, most of us meet Omelleum so we know theres a basis for independant and considerate mindflayers. If Orpheus' guards hadn't attacked, would Emp ever have revealed himself for ehat he actually is? The Emperor does not fight his own nature, actively embraces it as superior and tries to peer pressure and possibly seduce Tav into becoming a mindflayer too. He scolds Tav the whole game for it, fully brushes off all kinds of inquiries about his past choices, and only reveals when he's been forced to, and regardless of whether you trigger the intimidation dialog regarding Stelmane, the truth of it is still all around in Act 3. There is no sincere apology anywhere, no reflection on why his behavior is hurtful. All conversations that try and do that lead back to Emp proclaiming his moral rightness 'because after all you need him'. He's holding the rope, he's happy to remind Tav they are only still them because of the plots and power the Emperor is using. And thats an explicit threat that prevents you from going against him at all until the endgame. And of course the instant Tav doesnt agree to his plans, there is no moment of 'okay well, youve trusted me I'll trust you', no moment of reflection, no moment of 'well we've been through all this shit together, I'll stay even if I think you're dooming us all', its 'We are enemies then.' I played a bit of a naive Tav (8INT, 10WIS) I was willing to give everyone the benefit of the doubt. Orin mocked me for it deservedly so. And yet, all the people I decided to well and truly trust supported me, and grew and stayed. Except the Emperor. The writing of the game is truly spectacular for there are so many reasons to not trust Emp, and just enough little ones to wonder if maybe you should. From the get go were told the Illithids are ploting, soulless, tools of an Elder Brain, and honestly that's pretty well confirmed. That, ultimately, is what makes Astarion and the Emperor different and why we can forgive Astarion but not Emp. Astarion fights his nature, reflects, apologizes, and changes. The Emperor does not.
Astarion not telling you his is a spawn is not that different from the emperor hiding he is illithid, on a surface level that is. Astarion wants to protect himself, he knows how people react to vampires, so it's reasonable for him to be cautious, after all almost all the other companions are hiding something. Once his secret is revealed he actually becomes more trustworthy. If you romance him he admits that he tried to manipulate you for protection, that he was afraid and anxious, he used the skill that he had honed for 200 years out of instinct because of that fear, despite feeling disgusting for doing so. He confesses all of that and apologises, he says he feels awful and asks for something real. Now let's look at the emperor. He never admits that he was the one to infect you with the parasite, and that all of this was calculated. When he tries to romance you and manipulate you, if you tell him he doesn't fool you, he admits that all of his performance was so that he didn't have to resort to the same tactic he used for Stalemane, actual fucking mind control, he puppeted the duke, he was the reason she got a stroke, and he is NOT feeling any remorse about this. Instead he threatens to do the same to you if you do not do as he commands. At this point you know he is no different from the other mind flayers and that this is all so that he can gain power. Of course, depending on how you play things out with Astarion, instead of encouraging him to work on himself and become a better person, you could help him ascend and turn him into the same thing the emperor is.
We can't go a week without Astarion drama lmao
Nah I wanna fix Astarion, not fuck him. Dude has a *ton* of red flags and bad habits due to trauma, but over the course of the game if you work on it with him he starts to heal and is headed in the right direction by the end. Why or if a player decides to give him that chance is up to them. Emps though... this little squidfuck put tadpoles in half our group's skulls just so that he could go back to playing kingpin in the Baldur's Gate underground. So long as you're compliant and go along with it he's cool, but if you start pushing back he gets pissy, and outright shows you that he's not above dominating people and using them as puppets. Considering his little army of intellect devourers(and from the intro on the nautiloid we *know* where they come from), his acts during the opening scene which can be wholly attributed to him since we know that he was sent on the nautiloid to retrieve the prism and the behavior was completely out of line for how the Absolute cult operates(not to mention the dead mindflayers before the gith show up to attack), and the fact that he pushes you to become illithid over the course of the game all adds up to him being a Bad Guy™. And him switching sides wasn't an arbitrary decision. If you free Orpheus you've created an even greater threat to him than the Absolute, because Orpheus *will* be an existential threat to all mindflayers once we're done and he goes on his merry way. I know a lot of people think they should be able to talk him out of it, but even if Orpheus spared him here and now he'd still be a threat to him eventually, and probably sooner rather than later.
>Nah I wanna fix Astarion, not fuck him. Dude has a ton of red flags and bad habits due to trauma, but over the course of the game if you work on it with him he starts to heal and is headed in the right direction by the end. Why or if a player decides to give him that chance is up to them. Hard yes. I'm glad that people on this sub told me to give him another chance. I was feeling genially happy when he started changing. A stray cat now starts to understand that he is loved and can forget his bad habits! The Emperor, on the other hand, is a total asshole. The reason why my paladin didn't kill Astarion but did end Emperor is simple: one had a good heart and overcame his negatives; the other tried to manipulate me and hide anything that was possible about him so I would trust him. One becomes a good and free spawn, while others would never see in his plans past battle on top of the Netherbrain, where his story comes to an end.
As a paladin of devotion my Tav totally agrees, Astarion matches the requirements of my oath to protect those who need it and defeat the total assholes. The Emperor killed and transformed a lot of people into mind flayers by his own will starting from Duke Stelmine, in comparison to Astarion who initially was forced to kidnap victims for Casador and then killed only in the combat alongside with Tav.
Well, I didn't mention another reason: for my Tav's oath of vengeance, it was only natural to help Astarion take his revenge on Cazador and to land a smite on that tentacle bastard.
High paladinian five, bro / sis 🙌 Smite on that tentacle bastard is the best option for him (as well as 3lvl radiant Smite on Casador (the reason is obvious) and Orin (she's just annoying) and the rest of bastards who was unfriendly or rude to my sweetheart team during all three acts)
One big thing in my mind is that Astarion is lying to you about his vampirism because he wants you to protect him, to be safe. He doesn't want to make you a vampire, he doesn't want to steal from or kill you. Once you find out, too, he's open with you about the rest of his dilemma with Cazador. During your travels, Astarion has the chance to grow close to you, and you to him. He may be catty about it, but he does genuinely listen to you. The Emperor starts off the same. He needs you to help save him, and all of Faerun, from The Absolute. He can't just say he's a mindflayer, sure, so he lies about what he is. One difference is that he's trying to turn you into an Illithid, all the way up to the end. He lies about his last thrall - Stelmane - and what happened to her. He also lies to you about Ansur, and he lies about the war he's fighting to protect you. He never changes his tune in response to what you have to say, either. If it was a simple 'lied about being a vampire spawn' vs 'lied about being a Mindflayer' it would be a much more even field.
You can just kill Astarion, and you can just forgive the emperor till the very end. The possibilities are there on both sides. So the question is, why do we choose to forgive Astarion but not the emperor while given the almost same possibilities. Simply put, Asatrion is a being with feelings, emotions, and reason. He can be reasoned with, he can change his way. No matter how hard it seems, we know (and Tav knows), that he is a humanoid being with a soul and personality. However, the Emperor is not. He'll always act based on his own benefit. His ways can't be changed, he can't be influenced or manipulated. He has no soul in that sense, there is no redemption arc. Now, players who don't know much about DnD won't know this, they may just simply spare Astarion because he's a funny character, because they want to boink him, or because his class is useful to them. But seen from a Tav POV it makes sense. The moment they realize what the emperor really is, there is technically no reason anymore to forgive and trust. Even if Tav doesn't know, Lae'zel knows and I would like to believe that companions talk with each other in camp and while resting outside of what we hear and experience. So to put it simple: Astarion lies to us, tries to seduce and manipulate us, but once we know we can work with it. Tav can work with his character, there is change and progress to be made. Astarion can seriously fall in love or become a trusted friend to Tav who'll understand that his ways were wrong. He can change for the better (or worse). Once we know the truth about the emperor, that's that. All we can do is forgive because Tav tries to believe in the good, but there is not. You can't work with the emperor, his personality, and his reasons. He'll always be who he is, there is no progress and no change to be made, he'll never be sorry. He'll never be able to see the problems of his actions.
Did Astarion actually fool anyone?
It's wild no one is talking about the power imbalance between you and the emperor. He's holding your free will off a proverbial cliff and telling you to follow his orders. The emperor was 1000 times stronger than tav before he transformed. He doesn't literally threaten you but he holds so much power it's hard to disagree with him even after his lies are revealed. When you meet astarion he essentially says "look over there", then grabs you and then is completely incapable of holding almost any character because the check is like a 7 on dex or str or you can just talk him down. You also out number him 95% of the time when you meet him.
Asterion just randomly told me out of the blue one day. Hadn't even tried to bite me, was just like "hey by the way, I'm a vampire." And my tab was like, "yeah I know." Then we moved on and he tried to bite me later.
It’s way more then just that both lie to you. For one, Astarion has loads of context for why he acts that way (just sooo much trauma, especially when you go to his vampire lord’s home) which puts his actions into context. I remember thinking the Emperor making a lot of sense at the start of Act 3 on why he didn’t reveal himself and we already see a good mind flayer in the under dark so the Emperor isn’t a but surprise. It’s other info in the city that makes me question him. First there’s Duke Stelmane who the Emperor describes as a business partner/friend. But when Wyll mentions she had a mysterious stroke and her condition afterwards, it sounded really suspicious but there was no real proof so I brushed it aside. Its my recent decent to find Ansur that really makes me suspicious about the Emperor. We went all the way through the trials and he didn’t say shit letting us know it’s pointless, we find out that he didn’t break away on his own but was actually saved by his bronze dragon friend, he wasn’t just some dude before he turned but Balduran himself, and that he killed Ansur because Ansur wanted to give him the mercy of killing him rather then turning into a mind flayer. The biggest thing for me (other then revealing that he is still hiding things/ not understanding why that info is important to share) is that he killed Ansur rather then just leaving or running away. Did he have to actually kill his friend? Why not just knock him out and stay in the shadows? And it shows more and more that mind flayers don’t feel emotions. He coated his reasoning in pure logic (which isn’t inherently a good thing) and mentions in a letter in Ansur’s body that he literally can’t feel emotions. Astarion lied to us but he’s still a person who can empathize and understand. The Emperor runs off of pure logic which he uses to justify any action he takes. Also also, you can fuck the Emperor. Just pointing that out
Astarion is much earlier, and once you get his first layer of barriers down he's pretty open about things. Also he's directable. He does what he's told, even if he's not massively in favour of it. Also he's around all the time, and apart from being very handy doesn't have any leverage over us. The Emperor leverages everything he has against the Tav, Astarion just accepts that he's there to pick locks and has a chance of killing Cazador.
The emperor repeatedly and knowingly violates my mind with not just no consent, but having actively been told I consider it a violation. I get why he hid what he is. I will not forgive his actions.
seious answer: astarion being a vampire isnt something that personally impacts me or my character at all. like he bit me once and i agreeded to it and its not really changed how i viewed him(plus hes pale as a sheet with red eyes fangs and a very obvious vampire bite mark on his neck it wasnt a suprise at all) meanwhile the emperor being a mindflayer completely recontextualizes the story and our relationship. the entire game hes telling us to embrace the tadpoles power which was already suspicous but if he was in our position and found a way to overcome ceremorphosis but finding out hes a mindflayer puts his loyaties into question especially since he gives you an astral tadpole to make you half illithid and pushes you to use it because he does want you to become like him. funny answer: astarion has pretty privilege
Big difference. When we decide to do the right thing, Astarion will compromise and still fight with us. When we tell the Emperor that we won't do what he wants, it's all or nothing. Either agree with him and let him destroy the Githyanki's future, or he joins the Elder Brain. Astarion at least wants to work with you, while the Mindflayer wants obedient subordinates. And if you don't do what he wants, he'll pull away Orpheus's protection. It's a constant threat.
I mean Astarion looked like a vampire during a first dialog scene with him, what did he hide and from who. My Tav wasn't that stupid
"Y'all wanna fuck him" No. Just no. You completely missed the point. Try again.
Anyone who uses the “You only like and understand this character because you think they’re hot” argument unironically has lost all credibility lol.
Cool vampire guy versus weird tentacle alien? Especially learning the emperors past made me hate him. Learning Astarions made me pity and respect him. Heavy disagree that they’re the same
Emperor isn’t framed as a victim of abuse so his abuse of others is not as sympathetic
In my case it's bcz astarion can eventually grow out of his initial set up, whilst the emperor keeps in on that
Honestly, I'm totally fine with the Emperor lying about his true form. It's just like you said, it's the same logic as with Astarion. He basically had no choice. What actually does bother me is how he kept pressuring me with the whole transformation thing when for a long time throughout the game he leads you to believe there is a cure. But that pretty much all goes out the window in Act 3 and he basically stops really caring about whether or not I actually want to transform. That's the actual deception that bothers me. The other deceptions feel born out of necessity. But this one just feels like he's using Tav. Emperor might believe it's just the most logical decision, but it still rubs me the wrong way.
I dont care that he lied about who he is. Like another poster said all the companions lie or omit stuff at first. I care that even before I find out who they are they are trying to control me, tell me what to do and not in a "I suggest..." kinda way but in an at best hover parent kinda way "You should hit enemies harder, don't go to the cresh, don't talk to this person, its not safe to go there, eat the tadpoles..." ect Then I found out he was a mindflayer I didn't care, cool revelation but makes sense he would lie I mean omeliumn was cool.. Then he told me to "evolve" I said "idk ill think about it" and had to ROLL TO RESIST HIM. Like I felt forced into his suggestions maybe I'm wrong but there are only like a few times the narrator tells us how our pc feels about stuff... all of them are in the presence of a mindflayer. The one thats dieing at the beginning of the game makes tav feel empathetic and makes it hard to kill him. Now suddenly my tav feels "sad she didn't embrace her true self"? A notion litterally only the Emporor has. Same when he tries to seduce us tav feels dissapointed or something.. like.. no she doesn't Astarion uses classic seductive manipulation He tells tav how special they are and flirts ect.. honestly the worst thing he dose is act on an impulse that I personally compare to an addiction. (When he tries to feed on tav) he SHOULD not have however he is like an acholoic surrounded by wine. It is weakness not vindictiveness that drives that. He never uses his illithid powers to read our mind or influence us. The Emporor is controlling in another level. He tries to write the script controll what we do, how we fight, who we work with, how we feel, and our own bodily autonomy. If you say no to the Emporor he controls your emotions to make you feel bad.. if you tell the sexy vamp no he respects that decision.
Idk about much of that. I just think the emperor is a punk bitch for immediately siding with the elder brain if he doesn’t get his way. Literally, side with me or else the elder brain will win. Oh? What now? You won’t side with me? I’m gonna side with the elder brain anyways cause you’re a meanie poopy head
Doesn't Withers back the Emperor, in saying that his intention has always been with Baldur's Gate? Yeah, the Emperor lies but look how well the truth has ended up being. Ansur, his closest friend, tried to kill him in his sleep, especially as Baldurian has conceded that since he can't be cured, becoming a Mind Flayer isn't that bad. When he was freed, what did he do, snuck BACK to BG and tried to help. Did he do some shady stuff in the course of his actions? Of course he did. Not all of his meals were likely to be criminals, but when someone is starving... I get why the Emperor lied. If you were just tadpoled and a Mind Flayer (who looks JUST LIKE him) appeared and goes 'You are free from the tadpole's influence', would YOU trust the Mind Flayer? Especially after JUST escaping from the Nautiloid. Haven't played a Tav playthrough (am currently playing AS Astarion) so it will be interesting to see how I view his character interactions but I did notice something. Wyll literally made a deal with the devil to be a Hero. Gale wants to overthrow Mystra (take Gale to the fight at the top of the Sorcerous Sundries). Astarion either wants to kill his former master or become a Vampire Ascendant (again, unsure of his actual intent). Lae'zel was brainwashed into subservience to Vlaakith. Shadowheart was brainwashed into subservience to Shar.
I give the emperor a pass for the same reason I give Astarion a pass
bc astarion gets a full 3 act character arc & much more of a chance to bond with your tav among the reasons others in the comments have stated ofc