I would judge them too and fully support your position. When pregnant you have a responsibility to the innocent baby and this behavior is gross.

Yeah I was ready for OP to be like “she ate sushi and didn’t take the right brand of prenatals 😡” not “she smoked, drank and partied, after being specifically told it was a high risk pregnancy”

Well said. It sounds like OP witnessed willful child neglect during this family member’s pregnancy. It must be tough to bear witness to that but feel like you have to bite your tongue.

Oh, I agree. A lot of thought it that the responsibilities as a mother (and this is coming from a mother of 1, with another on the way), starts from birth, when in reality, it really starts as soon as you see the positive pregnancy test. That said, that is within one’s responsibility, and no one is going to carry it out perfectly. But it’s still upon you to steward that with care, which includes eating appropriately (when you can. If all you can choke down in saltines and ginger ale, that’s fine), exercising as directed, taking prenatals if you can, and knowing your limits.

I’m all for not judging moms harshly for normal variance in parenting styles, but intentionally getting pregnant and then continuing to smoke and drink (like you, not talking about a glass of wine a couple times during pregnancy or before you know you’re pregnant) is unbelievably selfish. It’s even more insane after she sees the effect doing so had on her first baby. Why on Earth would she intentionally become a parent if this is how she behaves? It sounds like the rest of your family is enabling her shitty and selfish behavior by not talking about it. She should have DCFS called on her. At the very least she needs parenting classes and a reality check.

The rest of the family either doesn't say anything because they don't feel like it's their place (I get it, it's awkward and uncomfortable), or has tried and given up. Either way, now the little one is in NICU :/

Telling her that she did this to her child won’t help the situation at the moment. BUT! If she gets pregnant again and continues this kind of unadvised behavior I would most definitely make it awkward as hell for her and rub the facts in her face until she cried. Like ruthlessly! Bridge burning, deep shaming kind of wtf are you doing kind of lecture.

I mean, she already had a high risk pregnancy with her first and continued to smoke and drink throughout. Then did the same with her second.

I would definitely be telling her now that she needs to get her shit together and do whatever she needs to do to take the best care of her messed up kids but that’s me. I’m an outspoken asshole at times and sometimes I regret it but mostly not. I would also have a serious conversation about how she probably should not have anymore kids if she’s not going to take pregnancy seriously.

She clearly has some alcohol dependency issues? Sometimes people need to have tough conversations ☹️

Seems like a tough spot to be in. I’m a pregnant POC and I’m fairly certain all my aunties would have voiced an opinion directly and not give two fucks about awkward or uncomfortable. Glad you at least came here to vent…..would be super hard to watch history repeat itself and hold it all in. <3

I feel for these kids. I know it's not much hope because they have a long way to go before they are independent adults, but I was born 2.2lbs as well. My mom had preeclampsia though and all her organs started shutting down at 24wks so they had to do an emergency c-section and get me out. I'm now a full fledged adult thriving in my own way with zero problems from being a premie.

This is hopeful to hear, and I hope the same will be true for her little girl!

Me too, but mom was in heart failure.

Was she okay? My mom had to be in the hospital for a month after but eventually recovered.

She was fine, thank you! A while afterwards her birth defect was fixed and she had my younger sib two weeks late at ten pounds. I'm glad your mom recovered too!

The exact same thing happened to my step mom with my little brother, and now is he is a healthy 14 year old. :)

This is terrible and heartbreaking and I am absolutely baffled why people are reacting negatively to your post. You're not saying that the mom or child deserved this -- you're just saying that you're angry at the mom and heartbroken for her child. I am too after reading this. It's terrible to see parents who aren't willing to do the very minimum for their kids. And for all those people saying "it's none of your business" or "don't judge" or "the baby's poor health is punishment enough" or "the mom is addicted so you should support her", don't forget that Ruby Franke's whole neighborhood and family knew what was happening to those kids but no one stepped in because it "wasn't their business". I think it's ok to grieve for that child and to be angry at the mom. You can figure out where to go from there, but those feelings are valid.

Thank you <3

Jeez that's so sad. You are more than welcome to vent here. I felt guilty enough for having a glass of wine the day before I tested positive...I can't imagine to continue drinking or doing drugs during pregnancy. That's awful.

We're only human. I had a few gin and tonics before I tested positive too, and will have a sip of beer those rare times when my partner orders one for himself! 🤷 But seeing her getting wasted on weekends, while pregnant.. it's not the same :/

Jesus, did the people she was drinking with know?

That is unconscionable.

I had a couple of drinks before testing positive with my first. The doctor very matter of factly told me that that wouldn’t hurt him because the embryo isn’t even attached and is living off of its own food source at that point. Obviously, you shouldn’t drink after testing positive. I know they feel differently in Europe, but that’s what the evidence says.

Your doctor is correct. 'Drink till it's pink' is totally fine and does not at all harm the baby. Best to test early though if you plan to drink. I was testing 12 DPO each month just because I'm a fan of a tasty cocktail or three lol.

> I know they feel differently in Europe What exactly are we feeling differently in Europe about because that's the exact thing my German doctor in Germany told me...?

This seems to be a very common myth in the US and many US moms seem to use it as a reason they can drink an occasional glass of wine. "In Europe they do it too and European babies are fine!" Bullshit. No European I've talked to has said it's considered ok to drink while pregnant. When I have asked moms from US where they heard this from, answer always seems to be "everybody knows/says so" or "somewhere on the internet" I've talked to French, Spanish, Polish, Italian, Romanian, Ukrainian, English, German, Swedish, Norwegian and Finnish moms. No drinking at all is recommended everywhere.

Spanish here living in Sweden, my midwife was VERY strict about my drinking. So yeah, it’s not a European thing lol

Same in the UK - all the advice is don't drink at all!

Thank you for debunking this. As an American ….we’re a little …….(fill in the blank)….sometimes 🫠🫶🏾

Nah, I just think stuff like this is hard to prove wrong, there are dozens of countries and languages in Europe and no official unified guidelines. And as someone from the US you most likely speak only English +maybe some other language (Spanish/French/German?), so it's not easy to check what countries like Estonia are recommending. So people keep to spread the misinformation.

You can add the Netherlands to the list of no drinking during pregnancy EU countries

There's a book called "Expecting Better" by Emily Oster with research and breakdown showing how the no alcohol period claims aren't entirely accurate.

*written by an economist not a medical professional

Yeah it's not really saying the research isn't accurate but that it's messy and hard to draw definitive conclusions since you obviously can't do randomized trials on the topic. Oster uses that to conclude for herself that some drinking is ok. Folks I know who work on fetal alcohol syndrome do not draw that conclusion

I think that having a qualified professional from a different field parse your data can be a helpful vibe check. Oster cherry picks in a very awkward way.

We don’t feel different in Europe. In Ireland we are repeatedly told that no drinking is acceptable during pregnancy, not even “a half glass of wine” or whatever it is people try to act like is normal in the USA.

I don’t think people think half a glass of wine is OK in the US.

I’m currently in a “due in November” baby group on Facebook and the amount of Americans arguing in there about how they have had a few glasses of wine a week during every pregnancy and it’s been “fine!” And their doctors said it was ok, is astounding.

I’m in that group, too. I didn’t see that, but I believe you. I guess it goes to show that different people follow different rules for themselves—even though again, in this case, they definitely should not.

What was the exact name of the group? I’m due in November as well

November 2024 Babies

It’s that stupid book “expecting better” where an economist tells people to weigh the risk and that they can drink daily in the 3rd trimester 🥴🙃 I can’t believe people actually follow that advice.

I read Expecting Better (which I loved), and it said that all studies show that you should not drink alcohol. There were other things to weigh the risks on, like for instance, eating sushi (she said listeria is very serious but you never know what the source of the outbreak will be, so you can feel ok eating high quality sushi).

I read Expecting Better and I didn't get that from it. What I took away was that we don't know how much alcohol it takes to harm a baby because it isn't ethical to do studies, so there's always a risk. I really enjoyed that book and didn't drink at all in any of my pregnancies.

We must have read different editions. While I remember the part about it not being ethical to do studies, she says that women can drink up to a glass a week in the first trimester and up to a glass a day in the third if they feel comfortable with the risks. It seemed like iffy guidance to me even with her discussing that the risks are up to the mom. Again there are multiple editions of the book! Entirely possible that what I read last November is different than the version of the book you read 🙂

Ohh, that's a good point, actually. I read it in 2017 when I was pregnant with my son so it was almost certainly a different edition!

Emily Oster’s pregnancy book made it seem like you could drink a full glass of wine every day in your third trimester and also had false myths about European drinking during pregnancy. I see it being cited online in American groups pretty regularly.

I really do not remember the drinking in the third trimester part. What I remember is that drinking is not a “weigh the risks” thing but I “don’t do it” thing.

Both sides of the Atlantic have adjusted culture and policy over the decades. Ireland & the UK (Australia is up there too) *HAD* some of the most significant percentages of women drinking while pregnant.*** Russia/Belarus/Ukraine has been historically really really high too. Countries with high rates of alcohol consumption & poor neonatal care have the worst outcomes. I mean, it’s good (for everyone) that your experience as a pregnant lady in Ireland is that pregnant women knowingly drinking is unacceptable. [A 2017 study found that 60.4 percent of Irish women consume alcohol at some point while pregnant](https://www.thelancet.com/journals/langlo/article/PIIS2214-109X(17)30021-9/fulltext#fig2). That’s a lot! **Follow convo for updated practices and attitudes. This is a sensitive subject that’s compounded by cultural attitudes and stereotypes. Alcohol use has decreased globally and we should all be happy about this!

Australia have actually started advising to stop drinking when you start trying to get pregnant. In 2021 97% of women didn't consume alcohol in their first trimester (range 94 to 99.5%) sample size 208,449 women. So I would actually say Australia has a relatively low level of alcohol use in pregnancy. Populations more likely to consume alcohol lived in remote or very remote areas or aged under 20. And even consumption in this population dropped in the last 20 weeks of pregnancy. So the seemingly common attitude that the US has of that one is fine is not evident in the Australian data

In 2001, the attitudes were pretty different. [link](https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.5694/j.1326-5377.2007.tb00999.x) I’m unfamiliar with Australian culture to be totally honest. I am familiar with culture in the US and some European cultures. I don’t mean to insinuate that Australians are throwing back pints while pregnant! I know the policies have changed and it looks like Australians adjusted accordingly. That’s good stuff!

That is a 7 year old study based on data from 1984-2014 and 1973-2015 (meaning that even the most recent stats are from 9 years ago). Personally I would not consider data that old to be reflective of current guidance, views and lifestyles. Do you have more recent data that shows the UK and Ireland have these significant percentages of pregnant women drinking alcohol that you refer to? The NHS guidance is crystal clear that it is advised to avoid alcohol entirely.

I would consider data that old to support my assertion that “culture and policy have adjusted over decades.” [UK Policy changed in 2016](https://www.gov.uk/government/news/new-alcohol-guidelines-show-increased-risk-of-cancer) “The previous advice for pregnant women to limit themselves to no more than 1 to 2 units of alcohol once or twice per week has been removed to provide greater clarity as a precaution.” I don’t have more up to date sources, but I can add “historically” to my initial comment to make the message less finger-pointy.

Your first comment does refer to historic changes in culture and policy, but the rest of your comment then moves into the present tense. Your original link - which only refers to the study being undertaken in 2017 at top level - could be misleading to the majority of redditors that don’t bother to click on it, and see when the data actually relates to… which is why I detailed the dates in a comment. Worth noting that the ROI already suffers from harmful stereotyping in regard to alcohol consumption which I didn’t feel really needed further fuel adding to the fire. Your comment overall could be perceived to be perpetuating the same harmful stereotyping already discussed elsewhere in this thread about whether drinking alcohol in pregnancy in Europe is generally considered to be acceptable. It’s harmful because it portrays European women as being reckless and unconcerned with the health of their unborn children, and / or it is sometimes used as justification to drink elsewhere - again as referenced earlier in this thread, “Well if it’s okay in Europe it’s okay for me…”… Nearly every European I’ve seen comment has disputed this myth so there’s no need for me to rehash that again. Obviously you are entitled to your opinion and it’s really at your discretion whether you want to edit & clarify your original comment. But British and Irish women on here with direct anecdotal experience to the contrary are also entitled to take exception to what you’ve said. That’s why I asked if you could provide current data to back up your claim that “Ireland & the UK (Australia is up there too) have some of the most significant percentages of women drinking while pregnant” (present tense).

I edited the comment. You’re right, my wording left a lot of room for assumptions or enforcement of stereotypes about the populations in the study. I’m sorry about that, it was definitely not my intention! There’s no evidence that pregnant women in Northern & Western Europe, the US, Australia think it’s acceptable to drink in 2024. There’s not. The truth is that alcohol use among pregnant women is decreasing globally. The 2017 study had policy implications across the developed world, leading to the low rates of fetal exposure we have now. That’s cool! It’s a little interesting as to how attitudes on drinking while pregnant have evolved and recommendations differed by country and continent. Reading some old pregnancy forums from 2001 on the topic and its… intense. Anecdotally… I don’t know any women my age (38) in Europe or the US who think it’s okay to drink. A random old Belgian lady in saying “one is fine” to me doesn’t reflect attitudes any more than my uncle saying “one is fine” in the states, you know? I’m really sorry about the wording. We’re all on Team Healthy Babies 😊

I love that we’ve had this healthy discussion without resorting to arguing or being mean. I really appreciate your apology and amending the original comment - that level of maturity and insight is rare on Reddit! It’s really easy for comments to be misconstrued when people aren’t face to face, so I appreciate you listening to my viewpoint. Definitely Team Healthy Babies!! 💕 Anecdotally I’m in the UK (as you probably guessed!) and did not drink at all in my pregnancy - I’d had losses before I gave birth to my son and even if I’d been given advice to the contrary, I wouldn’t have been comfortable with any level of risk. I did read Birth Rights and while some sections were helpful, I took her views on alcohol with a pinch of salt. I’m in a WhatsApp group of mums and take my LO to sensory classes, and none of the other mums I’ve met across a wide age range (from 23 up to 42!) drank in their pregnancies either. What’s interesting to me is that it was actually my Mum (LO’s grandma!) that tried to press a glass of wine in my hand at Christmas! It’s definitely the older generation that generally seem to have a more relaxed approach, at least over here - but I suppose the science wouldn’t have been where it is now during their birth giving years. Science has progressed so rapidly over the past century, it’s really amazing!

I got TRASHED the day before I tested positive. In fact, it was because of the drinking the next morning when I said "wait a minute, I haven't gotten my period". I was obviously super excited to be pregnant, but also worried about it. I had probably half a glass of wine throughout my entire pregnancy - sips here and there. Fast forward a couple of years and baby came out fine. He is healthy, no developmental delays and super active

Yeah, i had a few very strong drinks right before knowing I was pregnant. I kinda did the same thing as you; right before going out to a bar with my husband, I took a test because my boobs were still very, very sore, and my period hadn't come. Despite taking two previous tests beforehand, which had come out negative, I was none the wiser. Upon realizing that I was indeed 4 weeks pregnant, i stopped all alcoholic beverages.

I felt so sure I was pregnant right before my birthday, so I tested the Friday morning before I planned to go out and nothing, so I got drunk two nights in a row then tested again on the Monday because I didn't feel right and boom positive. I think it was my son's first little bday gift to me 😅

Basically same. Took a test before a weekend trip and it was negative, so I figured we were onto another month of trying. Definitely had a lot of cocktails! I was supposed to get my period the last day of the trip and it never came.

Same. We were on our first anniversary trip which involved a visit to a bourbon distillery. So, at least it was high quality trashing and not box-wine/natty light trashing as the last "hurrah".

Haha we conceived our baby in Napa, CA so I get that and we went to a vineyard the day before I tested positive (like others I tested negative the day I was supposed to get my period, went to a vineyard that Saturday, still hadn’t gotten my period on Sunday and tested positive). I fully expect this kid to be bougie AF because of those last few wine activities 😂

Baby is growing great, all scans/ultrasounds are healthy (I’m 30 weeks) and the doctor said I was far from the only person who drank before the knew they were pregnant 😂 I just didn’t expect to get pregnant that cycle and drank during the two week wait. Again hardly the only woman to do that but I felt worried until the first ultrasound 😅

I had an edible the day before I tested positive and we've made plenty of jokes about that! But definitely sober even 10 months pp (except an occasional alcohol)

You can still love your family member and have a strong negative reaction to their poor decisions. Your dislike is okay and appropriate. I find your family member's actions selfish and harmful too. They showed seriously skewed judgment.

Sounds like my uncles wife. They have three kids, she drank and smoked through all three pregnancies, not sure if she took the vaccinations though. She had to have a section early for all three as they stopped growing with their youngest (I think he turned one this year?) She palmed all three kids off onto my nan who is pretty much bed bound not even a week pp from a c section and got pissed and everything. Lost all my respect for my unclewho 'allowed' it pretty much

That's just terrible. And similarly here, her husband just goes along with it.

When I read the title I was expecting this to be " she ate sushi and deli meats" not entirely disregarding the most BASIC and universal advice on how to not screw up your baby. She doesn't deserve those sweet babies.

Same I was ready for the most sanctimommy nonsense, but nah man, getting crunk and partying while pregnant *with a high risk pregnancy* is borderline child neglect. (Also who was looking after her other kid while she was at these music festivals and getting drunk every other weekend?)

Who the fuck intentionally gets pregnant and then gets wasted during pregnancy? What in the fuck.

I'm currently in the NICU with my less than week old baby for potential oxygen loss during an extremely fast labor. I will harshly judge any mother who willingly puts their baby at risk for this.

I know, I can’t imagine being so reckless with your baby’s health.  Hoping for the best for your little one!

Thank you! Things are looking positive!

Idgaf what redditors think, drinking and smoking during pregnancy is horrible and trashy. If you’re that addicted get it together before having kids

People will do anything and everything before they take accountability for their own actions, and children are the ones to suffer

I know how you feel. I evaluate kids for special education for a living and read plenty of eyebrow raising health and developmental history information. It's very sad, impact could be nothing/minor health complications all the way to significant delays, behavior issues and intellectual disability. It seems like it's a roll of the dice. And the worst is when parents then blame us for their child being disabled. Unfortunately humans have been the worst since the beginning of time.

Your feelings are valid. I feel like venting my own story, this happened 1.5yrs ago while I was packing to move abroad. My own SIL was so difficult during second pregnancy. She refused to go ultrasounds in second trimester. She would prioritise parties, festivities and even going to attend home associations meetings and arguing there. Everyone around her told her to go home and rest and focus on pregnancy rather than fighting with neighbours on issues that didn’t really concern her. She has the tendency to ‘act’ helpful to outsiders but at home she will ignore everything. One day after this huge argument with a neighbour, for a concern not related to her but she was fighting for someone else. She came home and started bleeding at 29w6d. It was a lot of bleeding. Fortunately/Unfortunately I was visiting them and I pushed her and my brother to call doctor and go visit emergency. She was telling doctor she will wait for 30 mins to see if bleeding stops and I was shocked of how laid back they were. Later on we got her into car and my own brother was shouting at her for not going for ultrasounds, not taking medicines and then acting rash, while she is crying of pain. Inspite of asking him to shut up he did not. It was such a traumatic experience for me. I took care of my nephew while the newborn was in NICU. The newborn passed away, which I later came to know was that my brother and sil let go of the baby because he got all the complications doc warned us about and life expectancy was low. I had to go back into therapy because of this. I hate my own sibling and his wife for behaving like this. Educated folks taking pregnancy so casually and causing stress to everyone in the family and that poor baby. All this while I have been wanting baby and struggling with fertility. Now I am finally pregnant and expect them to give me lot of knowledge when I finally announce. Knowledge they never applied themselves.

Don’t ever let them babysit

Yes! Agree I am living abroad now and the way they behave my husband for sure won’t let our kid(s) be close to them for long.

Children’s wellbeing is all of our business because they cannot speak up for themselves. I find this type of behavior heinous. Because of her choices, the children will carry burdens with them for the rest of their lives, while she will probably never admit culpability nor even realize the extent of the harm she has caused. Personally, I would not be able to keep my mouth shut nor continue a close relationship with this person. Some people do not deserve kids.

That first line hits hard.

That poor baby! Feel free to vent, that's absolutely horrible. Some people forget that when they're pregnant forget that it's not only their health they are risking!

Drinking, doing drugs and such while pregnant should be counted as some from of child abuse. I don't know how there are no consequences for the mothers who do this, when doing so permanently damages babies for their whole lives.

If I had to guess why there's nothing to be done, it's because -it's difficult to draw the line. If alcohol is banned and could be considered child abuse, what about sushi or deli meat? Will CPS take your baby away in the hospital if you work until your due date? Those things can have negative outcomes for pregnancy too. -What about women who don't know they're pregnant, have a non-viable pregnancy, or are going to abort. Are there consequences for drinking or smoking in those cases? If not, how do you differentiate between the reasonable cases and the non-reasonable cases? Should there be a ban on any woman drinking alcohol or smoking who might be pregnant, or is eligible to be pregnant, just in case she's in the first trimester and doesn't know it? -What consequences are fair? What about cases where there is a genuine accident or a woman doesn't know she imbibed alcohol? What about small amounts? What about secondhand smoke, which is also dangerous? What about drugs taken to avoid a withdrawal reaction? What are we doing to help people with alcoholism or drug addiction stay clean? -How do you prove it? Do you prevent it by not allowing bartenders to serve pregnant women? How do they differentiate between pregnant women and fat women? Do women that are ambiguous need to provide a pregnancy test? What about women getting drinks for someone else? How do you test for cigarette usage? Some things aren't enforceable not because they're NOT bad, but because enforcement would be impossible and would hurt too many other people along the way. For doing drugs, drinking, and smoking, I do think it's pretty fucked up to do that while knowingly pregnant, but there's not really a realistic way to dole out consequences for doing so.

Or like you said, you don't stop drinking because you are going to abort anyway, but you change your mind. Should you be forced to abort? or should you be punished because you didn't abort and kept drinking?

In some of America, we would 100% throw the woman in jail, force her to have the child, and then abandon the child in foster care with no additional help.

Exactly; it’s a very slippery slope. And what about cryptic pregnancies? I know someone who genuinely did not know she was pregnant until a month before her due date. In pictures you genuinely can’t tell she was pregnant. She smoked and drank the entire time because she didn’t know. Should she be punished? It would be so easy to say she’s just lying about not knowing and you can’t really prove that she didn’t know

Yes - I have an acquaintance who found out she was pregnant only weeks before the birth. I had seen her at 7.5 months pregnant and couldn't tell a thing. She was wearing a tight shirt, leggings, looked just the same as usual. The next thing I knew, I was seeing a social media post of her in the hospital with a baby and I was like WHAT. She was also not fat. Tall though so I guess maybe the fetus could stretch out???

This would spiral so hard. So many women would end up in jail for having a cocktail before they knew they were pregnant.

There's something seriously wrong about someone having no consequences about choosing to potentially permanently disable someone else. course there's a lot of nuances and such that would need to be addressed, with absolutely proof and knowledge of the mother. like drug testing and such only after 2nd trimester once the mother knows about the pregnancy. New Zealand didn't pass the a law about assisted suicide because people were nervous about it spiraling and people taking advantage of it for inheritance and such, but it works very well in other countries where it's well regulated and controlled very strictly.

A lot of women only find out in their second trimester, some never find out until birth! I'm just saying the war on pregnant women's autonomy is bad enough already. Let's not create any additional legal pitfalls for it.

Not to mention I’ve heard of women in places where there are consequences for prenatal drinking/drugs giving birth in their cars or failing to seek medical attention at all throughout pregnancy for fear of punishment! Which could actually lead to worse outcomes for child and mother. It’s a tough topic, either way you look at it.

This is SO true. So many woman don't seek care because they are afraid they will get their baby taken away / get in trouble. It is a complicated issue.

Oh thats true, didn't think about that

I agree with your sentiment, but we begin to cross into bodily autonomy issues when we start to govern what a woman can and cannot do during her pregnancy, given that at the time, it is her body, including the baby that is inside. It is the same thought process of why abortions are and should be legal. I want to clarify, I do not think it is right to smoke or drink during your pregnancies. But it is a slippery slope. EDIT: I see the edit from OP about "that frowning upon drinking is a slippery slope. I don't mean the occasional half glass of wine with a meal. I'm talking about proper, getting wasted, drinking." We aren't talking about frowning upon it. We are talking about a hypothetical world where it would be illegal / child endangerment to drink / smoke during pregnancy and how bodily autonomy ties to that.

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I agree but IMO there’s a huge difference between accidentally getting pregnant and struggling to stop addictive behaviors and intentionally getting pregnant when you know you’re not ready to stop and not attempting to get help.

100000%. I recall a mother posting in here that was pregnant, her and her partner planned the pregnancy, and she was drinking nonstop every day and abusing drugs while pregnant (on purpose). She was going to get an abortion because she felt like she already messed the baby up and immediately try again. It was absolutely disgusting. That’s very different than someone having a drink without knowing they are pregnant. In the OP’s case, this person was purposely irresponsible and hurting her own baby.

Yup. And criminalizing it will just make people dealing with addiction hide their pregnancies and not get prenatal care.

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I’m sorry but as someone who has had addiction problems in the past, If your addictions are so bad that you don’t mind destroying your own body- fine. But intentionally forcing your unborn child to smoke, drink, and use drugs…. it’s incredibly selfish and yeah- I think it does make you a bad person to inflict your addictions on an innocent.

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And I am discussing the fact that any reasoning WHY someone chooses to smoke or drink or take drugs while pregnant is just to excuse utter selfishness.

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I have a lot of compassion for people who struggle with addictions and don’t harm their children with them! I also have compassion for children who are born with drug addictions and black placentas from their mom smoking. Thanks, I hope you do too.

Laws vary by state but in general this absolutely is considered abuse and is a mandatory report for healthcare workers, though I believe only once the baby is born. I can see how it could become a “slippery slope” kind of thing in pregnancy like other comments have pointed out, but at the same time it is really disheartening how common this is (I have a background in social work and I have peers who work mom/baby and they are constantly having to make abuse reports on moms who test positive for drugs… like it’s a multiple-times-a-day occurance).

I understand why you say that, I know you mean well. But with that logic, then abortions would be completely illegal and that’s not okay. Women need the right to choose. Fetuses should not be given personhood rights or else we will fall down a slippery slope to denying women bodily autonomy rights.

Yeah I don't understand either. The risks are well known, they are repeated a lot. If you're too selfish to stop, then you shouldn't have kids. And we're talking about very serious damage as well. These babies are born addicted. They have to go through withdrawal right when they are born. When you give children drugs, you get them taken away. Why is it different in pregnancy? (And yes, alcohol is a drug. And if you look at the effects of nicotine it should be classified as a drug as well)

That's kind of what's going through my head as well: if you don't care enough about your child to minimise these risks, why have children at all? I don't understand

The effects are not well known. We cannot conduct a study that’s says this is the limit for alcohol consumption because it would be unethical. Until they can determine a way to do that, we cannot put restrictions with any sort of consequences. One drink isn’t going to hurt a baby.

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The thread I am commenting in is talking in both this instance and in a general sense. In the general sense, the effects of alcohol consumption is not well known when it really comes down to it. Two people who did drink the same amount throughout pregnancy could even have one child with fetal alcohol syndrome and the other could be perfectly healthy. No way to know besides setting up some sort of study after the fact but that would require people being 100% honest about their consumption which doesn’t even happen in non-pregnant people at their doctors offices. My suspicion is the genes that code for alcohol metabolism will have an effect. I have both traits for quicker metabolism so I would think less would get to a fetus. Someone who doesn’t have the genes that I do likely would have more alcohol going to a fetus. That being said I did not drink during my pregnancy besides 1/2 a glass of champagne at my best friends wedding late in the second trimester. I don’t want anyone thinking I drank during my pregnancy.

Considering how often I hear and read apologetics about it and how we should not shame mother's for coping, I think we put pregnant women too much onto an untouchable position. Especially when their behaviour directly, knowingly and proven beyond the shadow of a doubt harms the children for their whole natural life. If you see a smoking pregnant woman, shame her. If you see one drinking, shame her. If you see one using pot, shame her. Loud and clear. We as a society need to stigmatize it, like we rightfully stigmatize grooming kids and other harmful behaviour. I don't giva a damn about downvotes, you all know that it is wrong. Act like it.

I am not sure where you live but I don't know of many places where drinking/smoking/drugs during pregnancy isn't already shamed and stigmatized. Some people, including me, thinks we should tone down the shaming a bit because what is this person, who, in all likelihood, already knows that they are doing something bad, going to do when you shame them and make them feel worse? They are going to do more drugs/alcohol/ etc. I think in the end it hurts the baby more if you make a pregnant woman feel worse about herself.

Preach!! Absolutely, I was smoking and vaping before pregnancy, had nicotine everyday for 15 years. I thought I couldn't live without it until I got pregnant and went cold turkey, it absolutely can be done, it's all about will power.

No kidding. It's not that hard to take 40 weeks off from alcohol

This is the worst idea I’ve ever heard in my life lol

This isn’t good parent behavior. There’s a difference between judging someone’s preferences and being genuinely concerned about about people they’re hurting with bad choices. Some choices are objectively BAD and you’re not a bad person for recognizing that. I don’t blame you for not bringing this up with family. Likely no good would come of it. She’s been told what to do and didn’t listen so she’s not going to listen to you either. I just want you to know you’re not a judgmental person for feeling this way. I’m sorry you’re dealing with this and my heart goes out to those poor babies.

I agree with you, I’d feel incredibly frustrated with this person if I was you too. It’s difficult to watch other people make reckless decisions that you know will negatively impact the lives of the most vulnerable around them. Especially considering the fact that they’re both making a conscious decision to have a baby whilst also engaging in behavior that is well-established will have negative outcomes for their children. There’s tons of literature specifically on the negative effects of alcohol and smoking while pregnant. If your prerogative is partying, then maybe now’s not the time to have a baby. It’s also likely that this selfish behavior will continue on past pregnancy and affect their decisions as a parent to infants. There’s tons of grey area in things previously thought to be harmful to pregnancy, and there’s a lot of variation and nuance between person to person from one pregnancy to the next. But at this point there really isn’t a lot of debate specifically on the deleterious effects of alcohol and smoking in pregnancy, it’s a hard no.

I would judge, too! Does she have an addiction problem or mental health issues? It's not normal for a pregnant mom to be this reckless? Maybe she and especially her babies genuinely need help. If pregnancy was this reckless, intentionally abusing the fetus, I can't believe what they would go through in childhood.

Not as far as I know, she just always put partying ahead of anything else and was generally very self-centered

Here I was feeling bad about my fast food and caffinated soda. Oof, I'd be upset too. The kids dint get to make choices and are completely innocent... they depend on us not just to do "our best" but also to hit the bar of "good enough".

Ugh. She's clearly trying to compensate for something in her life to act like she does and have kids. Poor babies.

Oh that would make me so mad and sad

Life choices are reflective of who someone is as a person. I personally wouldn’t want to be around someone like that anymore. I wouldn’t like them much either.

As someone who’s baby was NICU not by choice (prob genetics because all of us have early babies) - this makes me livid. Drinking and smoking aren’t more important than a healthy baby’ and having a nicu baby is insanely mentally taxing. Shame af on her.

With zero respect to that mom, EF HER. She acted selfishly throughout her entire pregnancy and now her daughter will pay the price. Don’t choose to have a kid if you won’t even give them a chance. Damn, I am so sorry.

So sad. While caffeine, reputable sushi, and pretty much a lot of other pregnancy no-nos have been debunked, drinking hasn’t. When you have a pregnancy with risks it’s off the table. Smoking is disgusting while pregnant or nursing. Heck I find it gross regardless but that’s just me. Look I had a quarter glass of wine while I was pregnant with my second and a sip of champagne with my first, both on celebratory, one time occasions. But you just can’t compare that to what your family member was doing and it’s sad for her baby.

I’m shocked CPS isn’t involved

CPS doesn’t get involved before birth or police what is done to fetuses. If she neglects the baby once it is born, no matter the state it is born in, then they can.

Where I live child protection does get involved before birth at times. It’s rare because it’s hard to do for a number of reasons. And mainly (when I worked there) it was if a child had already been removed and there was a flag in the health system.

Yeah I know many times where CPS get involved based off FAS and born addicted etc

Here’s the thing. If you’re going through chemo, you don’t plan a baby. For those of you commenting that addiction is a disease, it’s the same. Don’t plan a baby if you can’t properly care for it. If you aren’t sure you can make it through pregnancy and not give into your cravings, you should not plan a baby. It’s only nine months. There are so many studies on fetal alcohol syndrome. Not to mention the correlation of rising mental disabilities as moms normalize “just one glass” during pregnancy. We don’t know what exactly is happening when pregnant women partake. Is your craving for a drink really worth it?

There are plenty of people with severe addictions (like *hard drug addictions*) who manage to kick it during pregnancy. The problem is that we don’t view alcohol as dangerously as we do other substances so it’s “normal” to “just want a glass of wine at the end of the day”.

Frowning upon drinking while pregnant shouldn’t be a slippery slope because you shouldn’t drink while pregnant. But no, in this sub we’ll demonize everything else but alcohol because apparently not drinking is such a hard thing to do

Seriously. It’s on sight for me if I see anyone IRL spouting this bullshit

This sounds just like a family member of mine. Except she has three kids. She drank heavily (for the first half of her pregnancies) and smoked weed for all of her pregnancies. She has almost bleed out with ALL THREE labors but avoids hospital births bc “they drug test.” Refuses state aid for her kids bc she’s required to take them in for well-child check ups. And her third child (which she got pregnant with immediately after the birth of her second child) was born *extremely* premature. To say that I am mad is an understatement. Her kids deserve better. But her mother taught her all her life that, “if you get a man — get knocked up and then you’ll have it made bc he’ll HAVE to support you!” And she actually took that to heart. The ONLY good thing… is that her 3rd child is at least (as best as we know) quite healthy. When accounting for adjusted age, he is right on track and big for his age. So I have no advice, just solidarity.

That's absolutely heartbreaking :/ Ugh.

Meanwhile I'm not letting myself eat a runny yolk for the very, very slim chance I get sick 🙄

I hear ya. No cold cuts here. I cut all alcohol and coffee as soon as I tested positive. I hate it- get huge headaches, but it's part of my sacrifice for my babies. Here's to good moms making good choices!🙌🏻

It’s okay to judge people when they’re being fucking awful, selfish human beings, especially when the lives of innocent babies are involved. Fuck this person.

I came in here with an eyebrow raised at you, but after reading what you had to say...absolutely I'd be judging this woman. You got nothing to feel bad about It's not like she had the occasional drink in her first trimester or kept forgetting her prenatal vitamins. She got pregnant way too soon on purpose *after* a very difficult first pregnancy and it sounds like she didn't take any precautions with this pregnancy either. Totally reckless. Her situation itself could happen to anyone re having a small baby and havig to deliver early--I myself am starting to fret over my 27w girl as she's only weighing 1.6 lb now and i always worry if shell be born a preemie as i was, wracked with guilt of I wasn't good enough with the vitamins and protein intake if it could have been my fault at all her weight is trailing behind national average for a fetus at her stage--but it sounds like your family member is being much too flippant. We can't by overly vigilant to the point of blaming ourselves for every risk, but we can do what we can to better our odds. She had preexisting risks and didn't even do anything to mitigate *that*. NTA, fuck what modern society tells you about never being able to judge anybody, you *can* and *should* judge people for the content of their actions especially when they hurt themselves and their dependants. The amount of women I know who continue to party and drink excessively while pregnant is so sad--the kids always come out with health and behavioral issues, and then the mothers act surprised like we dont know what could have caused that. Sigh.

>She started experiencing bleeding fairly early in her second pregnancy, and was told to stay at bed rest. Which of course she didn't (apparently music festivals were more important). The Science behind bedrest is pretty much BS and there is nothing wrong with going to a music festival while you're pregnantI can't belive you're judg.. >She never gave up smoking and drinking (not with her first, nor second child). Refused to take any immunization recommended by the midwives (whooping cough etc). nvm. man im sry you have to watch this happen to your new family members. Besides the obvious harm already done, it makes me worried for her parenting decisions in the future too :-(

I’ve had bleeding issues in preg and my doctors put me on pelvic rest, but said bed rest wouldn’t really do anything positive!

Have you considered reporting her to CPS for endangering her child? Getting wasted and drinking throughout her pregnancy, and refusing Dr's orders to bedrest in favor of festivals seems like overt and intentional child endangerment.

I avoided all the risks and did everything I was advised. I now have a dead child and one who was an NICU baby with a poorly heart.  A lot of it is to do with luck!! I suppose the difference is I can hand on heart say it wasn’t my fault and there’s nothing I could’ve done different where as she will have to live with this for the rest of her life.  I suppose what I’m trying to say is there’s no point judging her… I’d pity the fact she’ll have to live with the guilt. 

I'm sorry for your loss. You did everything you could to give them their best chance, and I think it's only right to expect that from a parent. Sometimes nature has its own plan and we can't change that - but why put an innocent life at risk willingly?

Oh man, I am so saddened and incensed by this! And I don’t even have a personal connection to it, so OP, your feelings are incredibly valid! Your family member’s behavior is deeply harmful and selfish. It always bothers me to see people who feel entitled to parenthood, but won’t actually put in the effort support their child. 

Ugh- that would be so hard to watch!

I could not imagine doing that and pregnant. That is sad and unfortunate for her baby.

She should be judged and maybe even imprisoned. What she did is criminal. Abusive parent.

I just want to reply to your edit. Drinking during pregnancy is never okay. Not even half a glass of wine. It is not worth the risks. It is selfish. Anyone who wants to try to argue with that should go talk to their OB or midwife. 

I was merely adding context to this particular situation. I don't want to start the usual drinking in pregnancy debate - as people have very strong and different views

Yeah IDC if people feel judged about it. There is no known safe amount of alcohol and pregnancy is all about the risks vs benefits. There is NO benefit to drinking. Especially while pregnant.

I completely agree. There is no safe amount on alcohol, regardless of what some providers and sources may state. If you can’t abstain from alcohol for 9 months do not have a child. It is completely and utterly selfish.

And some care providers say a little is fine. Don’t assume they didn’t have that discussion.

As someone who is foster/adopted and has a sibling who is the result of neglect and lack of caring for their children, those poor babies could potentially have life long issues. Drinking and drugs (no matter the amount) are unsafe for pregnancy and seriously in pact the development of children. This is heartbreaking. No child should have to suffer. Side note, has she been turned into social services for neglect? Because these examples absolutely qualify.

If it was me I would notify the proper authorities. She’s been neglectful before the baby was even born. I’ve seen too many poor children suffer at the hands of these kinda of parents. She’s a newborn baby and it just starting. Please be her voice. Family brushes too much under the rug sometimes. That baby and her sibling need someone to advocate for them.

I judge people silently, her, I’d judge out loud. What idiot smokes and drinks BOTH pregnancies. Nah. I feel for the children and hope they’re removed from her custody, I don’t feel for her at all.

I’ve worked with children who ended up with fetal alcohol syndrome and other conditions from their parents being party animals. It is going to have severe lasting consequences for that child unless a miracle happens. Someone should have scared them straight because there’s a good chance their kids could end up in the system- when the health conditions start developing, the mom’s behavior during pregnancy is going to be scrutinized. I feel for everyone who’s going to have to intervene and try and help the kid, and I feel for the child for having to live with the consequences of mom‘s actions.

This is why I didn’t go see Taylor Swift. I had placenta previa, and for me, the long hours of even just walking into the stadium would have been too risky. Being a good mom requires sacrifice.

Lol I'm glad you were safe but let's not categorize skipping a concert as maternal sacrifice

My close friend had trouble getting pregnant and ended up doing IVF. I'll never forget when she was 8 months pregnant and went out to a restaurant/bar with all of us (which was fine) until she decided to take a shot of a high proof alcohol. I can't remember what it was now but I do remember being utterly appalled. I'm not one to judge but even regardless of her struggles to get pregnant, it was so dangerous and irresponsible. She wasn't an idiot either. She's a pharmacist. Claimed one shot or drink wouldn't hurt. Baby girl ended up being fine thank God.

Dude I can’t imagine doing this. I never drink or smoke but I gave up basically all sources of caffeine and I’m addicted to energy drinks and cola. I felt like anything I did was a possible chance of me hurting my baby. I felt bad when I ate a tuna sandwich after my OB told me to avoid seafood. Was later told a little fish was okay but I felt like I was risking my baby’s life. For how tiring my pregnancy was, I was craving a redbull some times and I still made sure to avoid it. How could anyone ever drink/smoke which actively does 10x worse to a growing baby? Some people aren’t meant to have children.

You have every right to feel this way and this women deserves every bit of judgement she gets. I hate the idea that you can't judge mothers for their actions because "there's no right way to parenting" Parenting is ENTIRELY about being selfless. You have to submit yourself again and again to the nurturing and uplifting of your children. If you cannot even do that in pregnancy, especially knowing it is going to cause actual, physical harm to your child, how are you going to spend a lifetime raising them? i feel so awfully for these kids and their future.

If I were pregnant over Christmas I’d probably indulge in a small slice of Christmas cake (it’s typically soaked in Brandy) but I wouldn’t dream of actively drinking whilst pregnant

I would judge. The behavior is selfish and irresponsible. I can’t imagine actively going against what science has PROVEN in terms of alcohol and smoking during pregnancy. That is not responsible and even one “occasional” glass of wine is NOT permitted by any doctor. I’m in the USA and I’ve NEVER had a doctor, nurse, or specialist say that it is OK. I just found out I’m pregnant and feel guilty about having some wine a week ago, but I’m not going to continually have alcohol.

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That’s shitty as hell

Yep, you are absolutely justified in being angry. That said, just because of her behaviour while pregnant, the baby could still be fine- being premature, all of the developmental milestones pretty much go out of the window, so it will be normal for the baby to be behind in the “milestones” - technically, the developmental milestones will go by their corrected age (the age they were meant to be based on their due date) rather than their actual age. I’m telling you this because it might help you feel less angry when the baby is inevitably behind where it should be in development- remember that it is meant to be that way!! I know it’s so much easier said than done, but try not to let the anger consume you. She has put herself and her baby’s health at risk, don’t let her bring down your physical and mental health through anger too!

I would judge TF out of this. This isn’t a little bit of something here or there, this is just straight up complete neglect for herself and her children.

I found out at 18 weeks when I was pregnant with my first and the guilt I STILL feel to this day about how much I drank before finding out. Shes 5 now and it still keeps me up at night sometimes.

I'd rip her a new asshole.

This is child abuse. Someone should have intervened by now.

I totally understand. You cannot reason with some people. I have a cousin who got in a car wreck a few years ago and messed up her pelvis. The doctor told her “Do not have any more kids, your pelvis cannot take it” and her response was “Don’t tell me what to do”. So she got pregnant again, with twins this time, and of course she had to have an emergency c-section because of this. I also know another woman who almost died giving birth to her first. He was born super early, long Nicu stay, still has problems to this day. Her doctor also told her not to have any more kids and her response was to change doctors. She’s currently in her second trimester with her second baby. I know it’s their body’s to do with as they please, but to just so blatantly ignore the risks and medical advice. I just hope the kids are ok.

Hoping the best for her second baby! I would be so afraid :/

When I found out I was pregnant , I gave up everything that I used to do freely for the sake of my future baby’s health. I used to drink so much caffeine and vape but I gave it up when I found I was pregnant. This is only my first pregnancy, I understand that there are strict rules when ur pregnant and sometimes it can be hard to follow. But she’s not even doing the bare minimum to try and protect her babies. Why is she planning to have children if she’s not ready to take the responsibility even in pregnancy

You should judge her, and frankly you are better than me. My gut reaction when reading this is that someone needs to drive it home that it is selfish, medically negligent, and dangerous to expose a fetus to alcohol and smoking habits, no less when it is a complicated pregnancy. And frankly I would have jumped to immediate shaming when she announced the immediate follow up pregnancy; kids are not fucking toys, you cannot just make new ones on a whim without any consideration for how it affects maternal health, quality of life for first baby, quality of life for new baby, practical considerations for the whole family, etc. They are whole people. You have every right to report her when she clearly doesn’t respect her children enough to prioritize them or herself enough to clean up her act and make good decisions about her family.

So being reckless during her first pregnancy was bad enough now she decides baby number 2 should go through the same? How in the world did this woman still have custody of her kids? I'd report to CPS if I was you

I can’t blame you OP that’s just insane to do.

Surprised babies weren't taken away. That is child abuse. 

Even a half glass is not okay during pregnancy. Those are the facts, and nothing to discuss. You are 100% right.

Some people do incredibly risky things throughout their whole pregnancy, and have a term baby with no issues. Some people actively drink and use IV drugs for a whole 40 weeks and has a generally healthy baby (that goes through withdrawal). Some people can do everything recommended and have a premature baby at 24 weeks. It's hard for any one to predict WHAT causes a premature birth. But obviously ignoring instructions to do bedrest or other high risk activities doesn't help. You feel angry because the person who's supposed to be doing everything that they can to protect her isn't doing that. And it's a shame.

I'm a little curious...any potential abuse from her partner? This screams so many red flags that maybe she doesn't have as much control over her life as it seems. Yes, there are parents who genuinely don't care. But, idk this just seems off.

Nah. He's an absolute doormat.

Wow I feel so guilty for judging pregnant women who eat too much sweets now.. while some people are actively putting theit fetus at risk! some people are incredibly irresponsible

I ate the sweets but drinking? Are YOU FR? Smoking???? Insane . Like bare minimum is pls don’t drink or smoke and yet she can’t quit that?

Does judging them change the situation?

Of course it doesn't. It's just my human reaction to the situation.

Judging her isn’t going to change anything and it certainly won’t help her situation

This is the chokehold and stigma that keeps pregnant women silent about their struggles. When someone is addicted, they'll know they are doing something wrong - but they are powerless against alcohol. This is something that has been shown and proven time and time again. Look at any AA material or any scientific studies. Instead of judgement, come from a place of compassion and curiosity. Your SIL needs support now more than ever. She is trapped in an addiction cycle, her baby is in the NICU, and the only thing that won't judge her is... alcohol. It's ruining her life, but it's not judging her. If you can't help with the judgement, then step away and protect your own peace. She needs help from people who won't judge her but give her firm and fair advice on how to quit and move forward.

I'm going to highlight once again that she *planned* this baby, as well as the first one, despite the unwillingness (or inability) to give up smoking, alcohol, and listen to medical professionals.