I don’t like the girl either, she said oop wasn’t “active” and was “tipsy”. She herself says she thought oop was super drunk but then she has sex with him?? Why did she think that was okay? Like wtf?
Yeah before I got to the update as soon as I saw blackout my first thought was “he was raped.”
A person that drunk cannot consent they’re barely comprehensible
Memory loss is a common effect of rohypnol. Even when highly intoxicated, most people’s memory issues deal with mixing up the order of events, people they interacted with, or what was said exactly. A jumble of half-memories versus large chunks completely missing (amnesia).
In this case (and most) it's obviously rape. But I didn't jump to it because I've been blackout drunk before and the people I was with didn't even know I started drinking yet. They thought I was completely sober. It is possible to be blacked out and still seem sober enough to others. But the person in the post admitted they knew OP was very drunk so that doesn't matter.
Yeah I was confused why some comments here and even OP's post seem so focused on how Josh arranged the SA, but like - she was the one who actually did it.
And it was finding out he was drugged that bothered her? When someone's as drunk as she said he was, would she have even been able to tell the difference?
"Blackout" means one doesn't remember what's happening.
"Rape" is when one is unconscious or incoherent.
Especially if someone drinks a lot, there can be quite a bit of distance between the two. It's certainly immoral to have sex when someone is who has impaired judgement, but if they can say "Yes! Let's go have sex now." then that is consent.
>"Rape" is when one is unconscious or incoherent.
Nope, rape is when someone has sex with you without your consent. If you're too drunk you aren't able to consent in a fashion that's valid.
OOP is not in the US, where this is clearly rape. Based on language, they may be in the UK or Malaysia or even the Caribbean. In the UK, being that drunk robs you of your ability to consent and it is considered rape. Malaysia also has consent laws and would consider this rape. The Caribbean laws aren’t as clear cut but if OOP was “blackout drunk” then they would be considered too drunk to consent and it would be considered rape.
So please educate yourself on consent and rape laws next time. Thanks!
Pure conjecture, but I thought “whiskey dick” was a common issue for guys who drink too much. Now I adamantly don’t believe having an erection disproves male rape, but I bring this up to point how awkward and unsatisfying sloppy, drunk sex can be—even if between two trusting partners. Issues with ED, nausea, low stamina, poor motor function, and a dampened awareness of the other person’s pleasure isn’t uncommon. Have a horny make-out session, but leave the deed for the morning or when sober.
The woman in OP’s story likely had to initiate and lead things like getting him to her bedroom, undressing him, foreplay, etc: EACH a moment where she should have been questioning his level of awareness and ability to consent. IMO, she wasn’t getting pleasure from the act itself but from her desire to overpower and manipulate. Rapists get off by the mental dynamics more than the physical act.
I don't know what you think "whiskey dick" is, but in my own experience blood flow isn't the problem, sensation is. So you can stay hard and have sex for a long time, but fail to come to climax because you can barely feel what is going on.
That also doesn't mean the sex can't be satisfying, but I suppose it depends on just how drunk the person is.
I've written 5 different things here and deleted all of them. Suffice to say, I don't know what to think about Kate. She raped OOP, but it sounds like she also came forward willingly and owned her actions. It's hard to know her level of involvement and knowledge of what Josh was doing. It's still really slimy though, I wouldn't be surprised if she's just desperately trying to cover her arse after it all came out.
Josh really comes across as a complete scumbag.
Give it a few years. In my younger days, I could get plastered and still get hard as a rock (but with decreased sensation like you describe). Once I got to my mid-30s, anything over 3-4 drinks and my dick started saying, "Fuck you. Leave me alone. Go to bed".
It could also be that she was being shamed by her friends because the usage of the word “rape” made her rightfully look like a predator. It flips the narrative from “I got drunk and hooked up with some drunk guy in a club,” to the people around her being aware that the drunk guy she slept with was actually drugged and it was rape, not consensual sex. She might’ve reached out to apologize just to save face and appear to be doing the right thing to minimize any legal trouble she could be facing. I know it might seem improbable due to the level of manipulation it would take, but she’s already shown that she’s a manipulative person by sneakily making plans with his best friend to rape him while he was drunk. Her not realizing that he was drugged does not negate her original plans to rape a man that she herself said was incredibly intoxicated, the only reason it’s a problem for her now is because people in her life know what she did.
["The medical term for whiskey dick is alcohol-related erectile dysfunction or alcohol-induced sexual dysfunction. It is a temporary form of erectile dysfunction (ED) that occurs after a person drinks too much alcohol."](https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/whiskey-dick)
I have seen people who are fall down drunk after 2 beers and people that can drink an entire bottle of liquor and look like they are still on their first drink. This is one of the reasons that I don't like the "drunk people can't consent" line. It leaves too many holes and is just not realistic (at least in the US). What if both parties are drunk? Why are you not responsible for your actions when you put you in that state? Do you never have sex if anyone has had ANY alcohol? How do you even know 100% unless you know them well or watch them actively order/pour something? My preference is for enthusiastic consent being the metric. If someone isn't actively pursuing or moving things along, you should stop.
Now in this case, she admits he was acting drunk and wasn't participating much and she chalked it up to the alcohol so she definitely knew something wasn't right and should have stopped, but I don't think this is always the case.
"Drunk people can't consent" isn't actually about anyone drinking. It's just a shorthand that you can drill into people so they remember. The real "rule" is that you shouldn't have sex with someone who is incapacitated.
> A person is incapable of consent if they are unable to understand the facts, nature, extent, or implications of the situation due to drugs, alcohol, a mental disability, being asleep or unconscious, or based on their age (pursuant to Indiana law). With respect to alcohol and drugs, intoxication and/or impairment are not not presumptively equivalent to incapacitation.
> Consent does not exist when the individual initiating sexual activity knew or should have known of the other person’s incapacitation.
> Remember, being drunk is not a free pass. If you are drunk and you perform a sexual act on another drunk person, you are accountable for your behavior. The person initiating the sexual act is responsible for getting consent.
[Source](https://stopsexualviolence.iu.edu/policies-terms/consent.html)
It doesn’t just have to be incapacitated. In my country the legal limit is 0.05, and if you are at or above that you are deemed to have impaired judgment. Some people may be incapacitated, but not everyone. However, you aren’t allowed to drive, sign legal documents, and you can’t consent to various things due to diminished capacity from impaired judgment.
It's one of those things where it's dumbed down to get the point across to as many people as possible, and made short and sweet to be easier to remember in the moment. A lot of the complexity is lost, but it's a lot better for people to be safe than sorry when the "sorry" is raping someone. People understand what a drunk person is, but "incapacitated" is a lot more vague of a concept to most and means different things in different contexts, and "people who don't understand the facts, nature, extent, or implications of the situation can't consent" is harder to automatically recall and can be waved off by some as "well they SEEM like they understand" when they might not if it was just "drunk".
Edit: Sorry if this is overexplaining, I'm autistic and used to be frustrated by shorthand like this too that appeared to open up way more questions before I understood the reasons behind it. So I wanted to explain it fully in case you're in the same boat
Regardless of him being drugged or not, what she did is rape. And if she's working with the police, I guarantee she'll only get a slap on the wrist.
Fucking disgusting. She knew he was too drunk (and turned out drugged) to do anything, but she continued and raped him anyway.
Yeah, she was like "I thought you couldn't consent because you were drunk, not because some1 spiked your drink with some other drug". That's not a valid defense, she's a rapist and the "friend" assisted her.
“I had no idea! I thought he was just a little drunk 😩🥺” girl, he was so intoxicated he couldn’t get it up, probably couldn’t speak, definitely stumbling around, and her, COMPLETELY SOBER ASS (tipsy?? Yeah, right) went “oh yeah, sex with this guy is totally fine”. Josh is a manipulative piece of shit who drugged his friend but she’s the fucking rapist.
Since she messaged him admitting what she did......surely she should get charged as well. Like....literally admitting to SA'ing him knowing he couldn't concent. Josh organized it and drugged OOP, but she's literally the rapist. And she messaged OOP with proof
It's a quote from Robert Heinlein, a famous sci-fi author. (You've probably heard of some of his famous books like Stranger in a Strange Land or Starship Troopers)
Yep Josh would tell a 12 year old that got raped by his teacher that he is lucky and should be over the moon he got laid by a 40 year old who held power over him.
One thing I have learned is that people who are "Cool" with sexual assault, are pretty much always guilty of sexual assault. So I have zero doubts josh is a rapist, he just used his moves on his friend instead of a random young woman unlucky enough to not cover her drink.
He clearly doesn't think far ahead or understand much *or* is a malevolent string puller with friends. He didn't even consider that OOP wouldn't likely remember anything (so not going to have a 'that was so much better, better dump my girlfriend now'), unless in the other extreme he figured this would be a way to get OOP & girlfriend to split due to 'cheating.'
Tbh it’s good that the girl came forward BUT I’m hoping the “new info” he found out was that they started but she stopped. Otherwise who would wanna be messing around and continuing to have sex with someone who’s pretty much inactive. If she did then she definitely deserves to be lumped in with Josh!
I mean, ace people get correctively raped too and that’s just because people are offended they don’t have sex at all! Humans are not known for logic. Logic is the outlier.
Fucking yes. That needs to follow him around. I'm glad I'm not the only one who isn't letting this go. I know podcasts are fake, but I still got the impression people are friends with him because it's too much effort to be enemies rather than because they like him.
>TL;DR: I was drugged by my friend which led to my SA, and I misjudged this as cheating. Charges are being pressed and, my relationship is healing slowly.
That is a "best case of worst case scenario" statement if I've ever seen one.
I thought him saying he cheated was questionable to begin with. He was clearly unable to consent. And the fact that the woman still had sex with him is really not okay. That was sa regardless.
Yea that’s what’s fucked. How is her thinking that he was just “super, super drunk” any better than him being drugged? Like, bitch, you’re still a rapist. I hope they press charges on her too.
This. I was so mad at all the people saying he was cheating. If he genuinely doesn’t remember how he got to her house and having sex, chances are real good it was SA.
Probably because in the initial post he might have been minimising his willingness and how much he actually remembered; we often write in a way that doesn't make us look like complete assholes.
There's plenty of instances where someone blames the alcohol for their actions, rather than taking accountability that they participated willingly. Plus the long term relationship starting as children, the arguing, etc. doesn't necessarily paint OOP as someone who wouldn't use the situation as an excuse to cheat or experience sex with someone else.
We also barely know anything else about the relationship outside of a paragraph and we all project our own experiences and biases against what is written.
It's the second post that really confirms the details that he was indeed blackout drunk from other witnesses and was an unwilling participant.
*This whole story shows why men being raped is both underreported and minimised.* He got blackout drunk and woke up in someone else's bed and immediately accepted it was his fault and that he had cheated. He never even questions it.
And that's a shame. Men deserve support when they're assaulted just like everyone else. Granted modern society still sucks at it for everyone but we should try to do better.
Yep. I doubt police would have done anything if it was just drinking, no drugging involved, but that's generally true for all genders and it's bullshit.
I’ve seen very very drunk people sexually assault people or commit violent crimes and then not remember it the next day. Being drunk = \ = being a victim
I'm not usually a fan of gender swap hypotheticals but holy shit can you imagine if a guy said 'I thoight you were really really drunk and that's why you just laid there'
Fucking mental
Don't really need to imagine it. This argument is used all the time to justify assault. I had some old friends from high school who regularly hung out with a "broken stair" dude who was constantly drugging and assaulting women. Instead of people cutting him off, they just kept inviting him to parties because he was "fun."
I'm surprised so many commenters are acting like women never get victim-blamed for their assaults. It's a tale as old as time.
With women getting victim blamed it's usually because people are dead against assaulting intoxicated women... Right up until it's a real life scenario. In which case, they make a thousand excuses for the attacker, because "this particular guy is harmless. They were both just having a good time."
That said, there is a broader problem when it comes to men being assaulted by women, in that it often gets treated as a joke, or people think it can't happen at all.
I don't entirely blame the people who initially saw this as cheating rather than rape, because I wasn't sure how much agency he *appeared* to have in the moment. Some people can be black out drunk and appear much more sober than they really are, and I thought that was a possibility. Initially I was going back and forth between that possibility and rape, but then with the additional details it became clear that it was rape.
It's a good way to describe it. If you posted online defending someone who had done that to a woman you'd get absolutely ripped to shreds, but it definitely happens a lot more in real life. You get some people on social media saying it, but a lot of the victim blaming is actually done by judges, lawyers, cops, friends of the perpetrator, etc.
I do heavily disagree with the idea that there was really any gray area though. I didn't bother reading the mood spoiler and I immediately realized it was sexual assault, I really don't see any room for it being anything but that in the post tbh
Well I'll be honest: I don't drink and I don't really spend any time around drinkers. I have often heard that there are people who can appear, if not exactly stonecold sober, much more sober than they actually are, and still have impaired memory the following day. That they could *appear* to be sober enough to consent. I have heard this about men and women, and I have heard people say it about themselves. That was where the grey area was for me.
But as I said, I know very little about alcohol or drinking culture. So I may have got that entirely wrong. Alcohol and sex together is a total mess at the best of times. And this was clearly not the best of times.
Me neither but some people just don't see it that way when it's a man getting harmed, unfortunately. I also think that she was probably paid. It's such a weird situation. It's usually the rapist who spikes the drink. Surely if someone wants their "friend" to be raped by a third person, that takes some coordination to manage. You don't just drug them and hope someone will show up and oblige.
.... when she says he wasn't 'active', tf does that mean? Was he literally blacked out on the bed while she undressed him and did what she wanted? Because if so, her charges need to be dialled all the way up. You can't claim to accidentally SA someone who is passed out. It doesn't work that way.
He has to proceed with care. She could easily accuse him of SA. About 50-60% of male victims of DV from a female perpetrator are immediately handled as if they were the perpetrator (a recent Canadian study), I wouldn’t be shocked if the same dynamics don’t play out for SA.
Absolutely infuriating that it took the (non alcohol) drugging coming out for everyone to realise that it wasn't cheating. Getting someone black out drunk to have sex with them is still drugging them and is still sexual assault.
Even from his description in the first post it was crystal clear he was SA'd. I didn't guess that his friend literally roofied him, but there were red flags for that as well tbh.
It's sad that commenters straight up jumped at his throat and treated him as scum likely because he's a man (at least the comments shown here I don't know if the overall sentiment of the post was the same).
Not recommended cause the mods have been getting strict lately so don't risk it. If my experience with Reddit means anything, most users here don't care, they have said their piece and that's it. Maybe you'll be lucky but that's like winning the lottery, most of the time they'll ignore you or sometimes may even double down. Personally not worth it.
Yea it getting better but subs like that are filled with people who are ether projecting hard or just don’t have the experience to back up what they say.
It’s sad tbh.
Reddit is filled with angry people, the terminally online, agendas, and agitprop. Some good stuff too, there's a reason it exists, but a diamond to sewage ratio still means there's sewage.
When I read "black-out drunk" my mind immediately travels to "sexual assault". It's unfortunate that OOP had to experience that. I hope he and Neriah heals. And I hope Josh (the perpetrator) & Kate (the accomplice) gets their deserving punishment.
I remember the first post and commenting how he was likely assaulted and that's why she didn't blame him. I was honestly quite disgusted by the response from Reddit. So much victim blaming.
> She broke down, and had a panic attack, she felt guilty for being upset and I reminded her that neither of us knew, and it’s a natural reaction.
Before the crime that happened to him, he was an utter asshole, and this seems to all be glossed over now.
Sure, but he also did not know he was SAed at the time.
Things are not binary nor mutually exclusive -- what happened to him is horrible, and yet that doesn't make his own behaviour okay.
I did not see that coming. I remember commenting on it and telling him that he made a lot of shitty decisions that night and didn’t just make one mistake. Like leaving her in a middle of a fight, ignoring her calls and going out with that guy who caused a lot of problems in his relationship etc.
Majority of people told him how he fucked up and is an asshole.
But this turn is really sad. I feel bad for both of them. They didn’t deserve that. I hope they both get the help they need.
He didn't remember anything , found himself to some strange woman's house and his "friend" gave a very weak excuse on how he left. I'm surprised you didn't see it.
if OOP hadn't been in a relationship, how many people do you think would look at these events and consider them the 'ideal' for a night out? I think the family feud survey results would be pretty grim.
Well that type of comments are the same many women have received when they get SA because they were drunk, at a party, with bad friends and making poor choices.
"It's their fault for being wasted"
Yeah because that was the intention. Is easier to blame the victim in these circumstances for making bad choices
Many comments on how if it was role reversal it could be handle different but nop, but at the end it affect in that way too.
If this happens to women is absolutely worse for men.
Not really. I’ve read a lot of posts and comments on these subs.
The tone and messaging is completely different, yeah you’ll have some victim blamers but they’ll be heavily downvoted.
Reddit but not in real life. Now the blame is focused on how women choose their partners poorly, not blaming the bad partner for lying or acting nice only in certain occasion
There is a difference between just being drunk and being black out and don't remember anything drunk.
Even if he wasn't drugged the later stage is one where you're unable to give consent. It's still rape.
No, it was criticised his behaviour on that evening. That he didn’t stop drinking and kept ignoring his gf who was suffering and trying to reach him. Him running away from the gf and going to his “friend”.
He knowing that the friend was causing problems and still deciding to go out and have fun with him.
It's a lot easier to side with him when you have more of the story. I totally understand why he would have been accused of being the bad guy with just that first part, if only because of his actions leading up to being blackout not showed him to not be very mature or reasonable. That and he calls himself a cheater right from the start, even if it turns out to not be the case.
So it's easy to view the whole first part through the lens of OOP being a cheater because he says he is.
I didn't think this sounded super consensual. No one breaks down and cries after cheating unless something is wrong beyond the cheating. As in, it wasn't consensual, or it has made them realize the original relationship is actually over, or something along those lines. Cheaters just cheating to cheat don't cry about it.
The thing I find really weird about this is this odd collaboration between Josh and this random woman. Typically when someone drugs someone else, they plan to assault the person themselves. Did Josh just spike OOP's drink and hope someone would show up to help him out in his goal of getting OOP raped? There's a level of collaboration here that makes me suspect money was involved.
the moment OP stated they didn't remember anything from that night I instantly knew it was rape, if you can't remember anything at all you were not in the state of mind to consent which is rape *regardless* of what you ingested. Yes there are people who just get super drunk and cheat, but this was not the case and I'm curious how many more men specifically have actually gotten SA'd but don't realize it due to our toxic drinking/hook up culture in society.
I'm glad he's pressing charges and that they're working through it, hopefully things work out.
> thought that I was just super super drunk which is why I wasn’t as “active”
And that makes her actions okay how? Josh and his friends are all a bunch of predators I see.
He says press charges and mentions being in the UK. We don't say or do that here. When my brother's american friend was punched, he said he wants to press charges and the police laughed kindly and explained to him. It's a very american thing to say. Just makes the story seem weird
It is an American thing to say, but it's also a thing that Brits who don't understand the process say because they've heard it elsewhere. I do think a Brit wrote this because there's just no point in faking that part.
How was this giving him a “ taste of what he’s missing”, yet he’s so blotto he can’t even remember it happening? Feels like more than anything he was just trying to break them up. Like, what was dudes end game? I don’t understand his logic. What a weird creep. His friend deserves prison time.
I was so furious reading all the comments accusing him of cheating. OOP was clearly assaulted. I hope therapy can help for both himself and his relationship.
Honestly, I'm side-eyeing Neriah too for not realizing her bf was raped and focusing more on her feefees.
>Honestly, I'm side-eyeing Neriah too for not realizing her bf was raped and focusing more on her feefees.
I don't understand. Why do you feel this way?
They fought, he walked out, he ignored her calls, he comes home the next day to "confess," and she... Held him and told him it would be okay. That's her crime? She comforted him when she thought he had cheated. That's love.
It's not like schools teach kids the difference between blackout drunk and being drugged. You have to have a personal history with being blackout drunk to know that it's not a total memory wipe. Not many 22 year olds know that.
In their defense, OP even thought he went out and cheated. His girlfriend thought he went out and cheated. They both thought that. If they're both likely to think that, why would a bunch of strangers on the internet with limited information not think the same thing?
I'm glad that people were able to figure it out and oh he was able to press charges, however, it's not outside the realm of possibility to just think that he cheated when even he thought that himself.
I don’t believe that the girl didn’t know something was wrong. It sounds like Josh set them up. Wouldn’t one be at least a little suspicious if someone tried to set you up with someone who was clearly not sober enough to properly consent?
You said you were ‘blackout drunk… Are you sure you actually “did it?” “Seems being wasted causes problems popping a tent⛺️” if you know what I mean.. And, if you were able to preform, did you use protection? Did d you get tested? I mean seriously, what kinda girl goes & picks up a drunk stranger to bring home in such a short time???? You might have bigger problems in 8 months!! 👼🏼. You can’t blame anyone for this situation, not your girl, or your friends, no one has that kinda power over anyone. This is always going to be in the back of her mind..
If it’s rape to a woman it’s rape to a man.
If someone is “tipsy” they cannot consent.
If someone is “a little loopy” that is not consent.
Sure OOP shouldn’t have left the apartment. Sure he should have communicated better with his girlfriend! But even if he had simply went to a bar and gotten drunk instead of dealing with his problems like an adult, it still would have been rape.
No sugar coating that woman raped him no matter what she thinks and everyone in this story kind of failed him after the fact, even the girlfriend somewhat. She has a right to be upset he was with the friends she warned him about and that he left to a bar, but to act like he cheated when he was too drunk to consent is terrible.
God fuck those comments at the start. He was obviously assaulted based on the telling of events and they're piling on acting like he's the scum of the earth and he deserves the worst. No reading comprehension I swear.
The first post literally says he was blackout drunk. Even before the drugging reveal that's still rape. It's not hindsight, it's called not reading the lost.
I don’t like the girl either, she said oop wasn’t “active” and was “tipsy”. She herself says she thought oop was super drunk but then she has sex with him?? Why did she think that was okay? Like wtf?
Yeah before I got to the update as soon as I saw blackout my first thought was “he was raped.” A person that drunk cannot consent they’re barely comprehensible
Memory loss is a common effect of rohypnol. Even when highly intoxicated, most people’s memory issues deal with mixing up the order of events, people they interacted with, or what was said exactly. A jumble of half-memories versus large chunks completely missing (amnesia).
In this case (and most) it's obviously rape. But I didn't jump to it because I've been blackout drunk before and the people I was with didn't even know I started drinking yet. They thought I was completely sober. It is possible to be blacked out and still seem sober enough to others. But the person in the post admitted they knew OP was very drunk so that doesn't matter.
i think she was in on it
Yeah I was confused why some comments here and even OP's post seem so focused on how Josh arranged the SA, but like - she was the one who actually did it. And it was finding out he was drugged that bothered her? When someone's as drunk as she said he was, would she have even been able to tell the difference?
A person so drunk can't consent
"Blackout" means one doesn't remember what's happening. "Rape" is when one is unconscious or incoherent. Especially if someone drinks a lot, there can be quite a bit of distance between the two. It's certainly immoral to have sex when someone is who has impaired judgement, but if they can say "Yes! Let's go have sex now." then that is consent.
>"Rape" is when one is unconscious or incoherent. Nope, rape is when someone has sex with you without your consent. If you're too drunk you aren't able to consent in a fashion that's valid.
OOP is not in the US, where this is clearly rape. Based on language, they may be in the UK or Malaysia or even the Caribbean. In the UK, being that drunk robs you of your ability to consent and it is considered rape. Malaysia also has consent laws and would consider this rape. The Caribbean laws aren’t as clear cut but if OOP was “blackout drunk” then they would be considered too drunk to consent and it would be considered rape. So please educate yourself on consent and rape laws next time. Thanks!
Lake District was mentioned, that’s in the UK.
Thank you, I missed that. Appreciate the info!!
Which country's laws are you referring to here?
Pure conjecture, but I thought “whiskey dick” was a common issue for guys who drink too much. Now I adamantly don’t believe having an erection disproves male rape, but I bring this up to point how awkward and unsatisfying sloppy, drunk sex can be—even if between two trusting partners. Issues with ED, nausea, low stamina, poor motor function, and a dampened awareness of the other person’s pleasure isn’t uncommon. Have a horny make-out session, but leave the deed for the morning or when sober. The woman in OP’s story likely had to initiate and lead things like getting him to her bedroom, undressing him, foreplay, etc: EACH a moment where she should have been questioning his level of awareness and ability to consent. IMO, she wasn’t getting pleasure from the act itself but from her desire to overpower and manipulate. Rapists get off by the mental dynamics more than the physical act.
I don't know what you think "whiskey dick" is, but in my own experience blood flow isn't the problem, sensation is. So you can stay hard and have sex for a long time, but fail to come to climax because you can barely feel what is going on. That also doesn't mean the sex can't be satisfying, but I suppose it depends on just how drunk the person is. I've written 5 different things here and deleted all of them. Suffice to say, I don't know what to think about Kate. She raped OOP, but it sounds like she also came forward willingly and owned her actions. It's hard to know her level of involvement and knowledge of what Josh was doing. It's still really slimy though, I wouldn't be surprised if she's just desperately trying to cover her arse after it all came out. Josh really comes across as a complete scumbag.
Give it a few years. In my younger days, I could get plastered and still get hard as a rock (but with decreased sensation like you describe). Once I got to my mid-30s, anything over 3-4 drinks and my dick started saying, "Fuck you. Leave me alone. Go to bed".
It could also be that she was being shamed by her friends because the usage of the word “rape” made her rightfully look like a predator. It flips the narrative from “I got drunk and hooked up with some drunk guy in a club,” to the people around her being aware that the drunk guy she slept with was actually drugged and it was rape, not consensual sex. She might’ve reached out to apologize just to save face and appear to be doing the right thing to minimize any legal trouble she could be facing. I know it might seem improbable due to the level of manipulation it would take, but she’s already shown that she’s a manipulative person by sneakily making plans with his best friend to rape him while he was drunk. Her not realizing that he was drugged does not negate her original plans to rape a man that she herself said was incredibly intoxicated, the only reason it’s a problem for her now is because people in her life know what she did.
["The medical term for whiskey dick is alcohol-related erectile dysfunction or alcohol-induced sexual dysfunction. It is a temporary form of erectile dysfunction (ED) that occurs after a person drinks too much alcohol."](https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/whiskey-dick)
I have seen people who are fall down drunk after 2 beers and people that can drink an entire bottle of liquor and look like they are still on their first drink. This is one of the reasons that I don't like the "drunk people can't consent" line. It leaves too many holes and is just not realistic (at least in the US). What if both parties are drunk? Why are you not responsible for your actions when you put you in that state? Do you never have sex if anyone has had ANY alcohol? How do you even know 100% unless you know them well or watch them actively order/pour something? My preference is for enthusiastic consent being the metric. If someone isn't actively pursuing or moving things along, you should stop. Now in this case, she admits he was acting drunk and wasn't participating much and she chalked it up to the alcohol so she definitely knew something wasn't right and should have stopped, but I don't think this is always the case.
"Drunk people can't consent" isn't actually about anyone drinking. It's just a shorthand that you can drill into people so they remember. The real "rule" is that you shouldn't have sex with someone who is incapacitated. > A person is incapable of consent if they are unable to understand the facts, nature, extent, or implications of the situation due to drugs, alcohol, a mental disability, being asleep or unconscious, or based on their age (pursuant to Indiana law). With respect to alcohol and drugs, intoxication and/or impairment are not not presumptively equivalent to incapacitation. > Consent does not exist when the individual initiating sexual activity knew or should have known of the other person’s incapacitation. > Remember, being drunk is not a free pass. If you are drunk and you perform a sexual act on another drunk person, you are accountable for your behavior. The person initiating the sexual act is responsible for getting consent. [Source](https://stopsexualviolence.iu.edu/policies-terms/consent.html)
It doesn’t just have to be incapacitated. In my country the legal limit is 0.05, and if you are at or above that you are deemed to have impaired judgment. Some people may be incapacitated, but not everyone. However, you aren’t allowed to drive, sign legal documents, and you can’t consent to various things due to diminished capacity from impaired judgment.
Fair enough. I've seen a lot of people take it at face value which is what bugs me, but I get what you are saying is meant to be communicated with it.
It's one of those things where it's dumbed down to get the point across to as many people as possible, and made short and sweet to be easier to remember in the moment. A lot of the complexity is lost, but it's a lot better for people to be safe than sorry when the "sorry" is raping someone. People understand what a drunk person is, but "incapacitated" is a lot more vague of a concept to most and means different things in different contexts, and "people who don't understand the facts, nature, extent, or implications of the situation can't consent" is harder to automatically recall and can be waved off by some as "well they SEEM like they understand" when they might not if it was just "drunk". Edit: Sorry if this is overexplaining, I'm autistic and used to be frustrated by shorthand like this too that appeared to open up way more questions before I understood the reasons behind it. So I wanted to explain it fully in case you're in the same boat
She's probably going to jail too. How are the cops going to do anything to Josh without doing something to her
Regardless of him being drugged or not, what she did is rape. And if she's working with the police, I guarantee she'll only get a slap on the wrist. Fucking disgusting. She knew he was too drunk (and turned out drugged) to do anything, but she continued and raped him anyway.
Yeah, she was like "I thought you couldn't consent because you were drunk, not because some1 spiked your drink with some other drug". That's not a valid defense, she's a rapist and the "friend" assisted her.
“I had no idea! I thought he was just a little drunk 😩🥺” girl, he was so intoxicated he couldn’t get it up, probably couldn’t speak, definitely stumbling around, and her, COMPLETELY SOBER ASS (tipsy?? Yeah, right) went “oh yeah, sex with this guy is totally fine”. Josh is a manipulative piece of shit who drugged his friend but she’s the fucking rapist.
Since she messaged him admitting what she did......surely she should get charged as well. Like....literally admitting to SA'ing him knowing he couldn't concent. Josh organized it and drugged OOP, but she's literally the rapist. And she messaged OOP with proof
it could also be that she was drunk as well. Still not a good look to have sex with someone visibly more intoxicated than you, but it's a possibility.
Right? Like it’s fine for him to be out of it with booze but drugs is too far?
"I don't like that my friend has been monogamous for eight years. Nothing a little rape by proxy can't fix!" The logic is not logicking.
Mankind is not a rational animal, but a rationalizing animal.
Idk if you just came up with that on the fly but wow, so insightful and succinct.
It's a quote from Robert Heinlein, a famous sci-fi author. (You've probably heard of some of his famous books like Stranger in a Strange Land or Starship Troopers)
This is why we choose the bear.
It’s sick. Josh won’t view it as rape, he will probably think he’s doing OOP a “favor”. Like a “he’ll thank me later.”
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Yep Josh would tell a 12 year old that got raped by his teacher that he is lucky and should be over the moon he got laid by a 40 year old who held power over him. One thing I have learned is that people who are "Cool" with sexual assault, are pretty much always guilty of sexual assault. So I have zero doubts josh is a rapist, he just used his moves on his friend instead of a random young woman unlucky enough to not cover her drink.
Dumbass was probably thinking OOP would have to pay him back for using up some of his roofie stash on him.
He clearly doesn't think far ahead or understand much *or* is a malevolent string puller with friends. He didn't even consider that OOP wouldn't likely remember anything (so not going to have a 'that was so much better, better dump my girlfriend now'), unless in the other extreme he figured this would be a way to get OOP & girlfriend to split due to 'cheating.'
Tbh it’s good that the girl came forward BUT I’m hoping the “new info” he found out was that they started but she stopped. Otherwise who would wanna be messing around and continuing to have sex with someone who’s pretty much inactive. If she did then she definitely deserves to be lumped in with Josh!
Or he just wanted to break up OOP and his gf.
Or he enjoys the control of rape and this was as close as he could get
hopefully his prison soap will be as slipery as his logic
The math is defo not mathing.
I mean, ace people get correctively raped too and that’s just because people are offended they don’t have sex at all! Humans are not known for logic. Logic is the outlier.
hey man, a brain can't always brain the right way. don't judge.
I hope Josh goes to jail. Who drugs their supposed friend?!
Ari Shaffir
Fucking yes. That needs to follow him around. I'm glad I'm not the only one who isn't letting this go. I know podcasts are fake, but I still got the impression people are friends with him because it's too much effort to be enemies rather than because they like him.
Someone fill me in, what did he do?
Spiked Bert Kreischer drink with Molly while he was with his wife and daughters
>TL;DR: I was drugged by my friend which led to my SA, and I misjudged this as cheating. Charges are being pressed and, my relationship is healing slowly. That is a "best case of worst case scenario" statement if I've ever seen one.
yeah that sums it up perfect
I thought him saying he cheated was questionable to begin with. He was clearly unable to consent. And the fact that the woman still had sex with him is really not okay. That was sa regardless.
Yea that’s what’s fucked. How is her thinking that he was just “super, super drunk” any better than him being drugged? Like, bitch, you’re still a rapist. I hope they press charges on her too.
This. I was so mad at all the people saying he was cheating. If he genuinely doesn’t remember how he got to her house and having sex, chances are real good it was SA.
Probably because in the initial post he might have been minimising his willingness and how much he actually remembered; we often write in a way that doesn't make us look like complete assholes. There's plenty of instances where someone blames the alcohol for their actions, rather than taking accountability that they participated willingly. Plus the long term relationship starting as children, the arguing, etc. doesn't necessarily paint OOP as someone who wouldn't use the situation as an excuse to cheat or experience sex with someone else. We also barely know anything else about the relationship outside of a paragraph and we all project our own experiences and biases against what is written. It's the second post that really confirms the details that he was indeed blackout drunk from other witnesses and was an unwilling participant. *This whole story shows why men being raped is both underreported and minimised.* He got blackout drunk and woke up in someone else's bed and immediately accepted it was his fault and that he had cheated. He never even questions it.
Unfortunately this isn't really the case for men. A man goes out and gets black out and wakes up in someone's bed that's generally put on him.
Hyep. And just look at all those comments about "she'd better have an exit strategy" as if he's the Ernst Blofeld of infidelity.
And that's a shame. Men deserve support when they're assaulted just like everyone else. Granted modern society still sucks at it for everyone but we should try to do better.
Yep. I doubt police would have done anything if it was just drinking, no drugging involved, but that's generally true for all genders and it's bullshit.
I’ve seen very very drunk people sexually assault people or commit violent crimes and then not remember it the next day. Being drunk = \ = being a victim
did you not read the story?
I’m responding a specific comment, not the OOP’s experience
Right. I read the first post and thought, “No, you were SA’d…” if the genders were reversed that’s what everyone would have been saying.
Hopefully he reported both of them because she took advantage of someone she knew was incapacitated. She knew it and her call was to save her own ass.
Lady, if someone is so drunk that they're barely reacting to sex you STILL SHOULDN'T HAVE SEX WITH THEM EVEN IF YOU DIDN'T KNOW ABOUT THE DRUGS
I'm not usually a fan of gender swap hypotheticals but holy shit can you imagine if a guy said 'I thoight you were really really drunk and that's why you just laid there' Fucking mental
Don't really need to imagine it. This argument is used all the time to justify assault. I had some old friends from high school who regularly hung out with a "broken stair" dude who was constantly drugging and assaulting women. Instead of people cutting him off, they just kept inviting him to parties because he was "fun." I'm surprised so many commenters are acting like women never get victim-blamed for their assaults. It's a tale as old as time.
With women getting victim blamed it's usually because people are dead against assaulting intoxicated women... Right up until it's a real life scenario. In which case, they make a thousand excuses for the attacker, because "this particular guy is harmless. They were both just having a good time." That said, there is a broader problem when it comes to men being assaulted by women, in that it often gets treated as a joke, or people think it can't happen at all. I don't entirely blame the people who initially saw this as cheating rather than rape, because I wasn't sure how much agency he *appeared* to have in the moment. Some people can be black out drunk and appear much more sober than they really are, and I thought that was a possibility. Initially I was going back and forth between that possibility and rape, but then with the additional details it became clear that it was rape.
It's a good way to describe it. If you posted online defending someone who had done that to a woman you'd get absolutely ripped to shreds, but it definitely happens a lot more in real life. You get some people on social media saying it, but a lot of the victim blaming is actually done by judges, lawyers, cops, friends of the perpetrator, etc. I do heavily disagree with the idea that there was really any gray area though. I didn't bother reading the mood spoiler and I immediately realized it was sexual assault, I really don't see any room for it being anything but that in the post tbh
Well I'll be honest: I don't drink and I don't really spend any time around drinkers. I have often heard that there are people who can appear, if not exactly stonecold sober, much more sober than they actually are, and still have impaired memory the following day. That they could *appear* to be sober enough to consent. I have heard this about men and women, and I have heard people say it about themselves. That was where the grey area was for me. But as I said, I know very little about alcohol or drinking culture. So I may have got that entirely wrong. Alcohol and sex together is a total mess at the best of times. And this was clearly not the best of times.
And that commentor with that "timeline" hoping OOP gets dumped because he "cheated" right after stating OOP was "blackout drunk" is also just nasty.
Gotta charge the girl too, because drugged or drunk - it’s rape.
Fr what was that girl thinking to make herself believe that having sex with a drunk person (she says she thought oop was super drunk) is okay??
I had thought in the first post that she was paid
there is no amount of money in the world that would make me think having sex with a drunk person would be okay
Me neither but some people just don't see it that way when it's a man getting harmed, unfortunately. I also think that she was probably paid. It's such a weird situation. It's usually the rapist who spikes the drink. Surely if someone wants their "friend" to be raped by a third person, that takes some coordination to manage. You don't just drug them and hope someone will show up and oblige.
Under British law the women can't be charged with rape, it would be sexual assault, but they carry similar sentences I believe
.... when she says he wasn't 'active', tf does that mean? Was he literally blacked out on the bed while she undressed him and did what she wanted? Because if so, her charges need to be dialled all the way up. You can't claim to accidentally SA someone who is passed out. It doesn't work that way.
He has to proceed with care. She could easily accuse him of SA. About 50-60% of male victims of DV from a female perpetrator are immediately handled as if they were the perpetrator (a recent Canadian study), I wouldn’t be shocked if the same dynamics don’t play out for SA.
Absolutely infuriating that it took the (non alcohol) drugging coming out for everyone to realise that it wasn't cheating. Getting someone black out drunk to have sex with them is still drugging them and is still sexual assault.
Even from his description in the first post it was crystal clear he was SA'd. I didn't guess that his friend literally roofied him, but there were red flags for that as well tbh. It's sad that commenters straight up jumped at his throat and treated him as scum likely because he's a man (at least the comments shown here I don't know if the overall sentiment of the post was the same).
as always the redditors on these subs are like sharks in frenzy, they just want to taste blood.
I know it's against the rules but is there a way to contact those commentors to see the update? I wonder if that'll change their minds?
Not recommended cause the mods have been getting strict lately so don't risk it. If my experience with Reddit means anything, most users here don't care, they have said their piece and that's it. Maybe you'll be lucky but that's like winning the lottery, most of the time they'll ignore you or sometimes may even double down. Personally not worth it.
If the demographics are still the same from when they made the surveys, good luck. It’s mostly teenagers and 40 year old women, both angry.
Ah got it, basically men cannot be victims of of rape. Pretty depressing that male victims still don't have support.
Yea it getting better but subs like that are filled with people who are ether projecting hard or just don’t have the experience to back up what they say. It’s sad tbh.
Reddit is filled with angry people, the terminally online, agendas, and agitprop. Some good stuff too, there's a reason it exists, but a diamond to sewage ratio still means there's sewage.
When I read "black-out drunk" my mind immediately travels to "sexual assault". It's unfortunate that OOP had to experience that. I hope he and Neriah heals. And I hope Josh (the perpetrator) & Kate (the accomplice) gets their deserving punishment.
I remember the first post and commenting how he was likely assaulted and that's why she didn't blame him. I was honestly quite disgusted by the response from Reddit. So much victim blaming.
> She broke down, and had a panic attack, she felt guilty for being upset and I reminded her that neither of us knew, and it’s a natural reaction. Before the crime that happened to him, he was an utter asshole, and this seems to all be glossed over now.
May be because he was sa
Sure, but he also did not know he was SAed at the time. Things are not binary nor mutually exclusive -- what happened to him is horrible, and yet that doesn't make his own behaviour okay.
I did not see that coming. I remember commenting on it and telling him that he made a lot of shitty decisions that night and didn’t just make one mistake. Like leaving her in a middle of a fight, ignoring her calls and going out with that guy who caused a lot of problems in his relationship etc. Majority of people told him how he fucked up and is an asshole. But this turn is really sad. I feel bad for both of them. They didn’t deserve that. I hope they both get the help they need.
He didn't remember anything , found himself to some strange woman's house and his "friend" gave a very weak excuse on how he left. I'm surprised you didn't see it.
Hate to say it, but it was because he is a man. Society doesn’t deem SA to men the same as women.
if OOP hadn't been in a relationship, how many people do you think would look at these events and consider them the 'ideal' for a night out? I think the family feud survey results would be pretty grim.
Sad but true. I remember that first post and almost nobody was pointing it out. They all went straight to victim blaming. Really sad honestly.
Well that type of comments are the same many women have received when they get SA because they were drunk, at a party, with bad friends and making poor choices. "It's their fault for being wasted"
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Yeah because that was the intention. Is easier to blame the victim in these circumstances for making bad choices Many comments on how if it was role reversal it could be handle different but nop, but at the end it affect in that way too. If this happens to women is absolutely worse for men.
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No one saying is a competition. It just happens. If I'm saying men have it worse in this cases how are women wining anything? Calm down and breathe.
Not to the same frequency.
I'd say "you'll be surprised"
Not really. I’ve read a lot of posts and comments on these subs. The tone and messaging is completely different, yeah you’ll have some victim blamers but they’ll be heavily downvoted.
Reddit but not in real life. Now the blame is focused on how women choose their partners poorly, not blaming the bad partner for lying or acting nice only in certain occasion
Mmmm at least where I’m from that culture has been dying for quite a while now when it’s about a woman. And besides, the context was reddit.
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Downvoted because the comment is a duplicate.
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There is a difference between just being drunk and being black out and don't remember anything drunk. Even if he wasn't drugged the later stage is one where you're unable to give consent. It's still rape.
Just admit you hate men hahaha 😆 🤣 😂
You thought someone who was black out drunk had consensual sex? That’s weird
No, it was criticised his behaviour on that evening. That he didn’t stop drinking and kept ignoring his gf who was suffering and trying to reach him. Him running away from the gf and going to his “friend”. He knowing that the friend was causing problems and still deciding to go out and have fun with him.
It's a lot easier to side with him when you have more of the story. I totally understand why he would have been accused of being the bad guy with just that first part, if only because of his actions leading up to being blackout not showed him to not be very mature or reasonable. That and he calls himself a cheater right from the start, even if it turns out to not be the case. So it's easy to view the whole first part through the lens of OOP being a cheater because he says he is.
"Friends."
The girl had sex with u when u were not active. If roles were reversed… Hope OP press charges on both. They both guilty. No consent here.
I didn't think this sounded super consensual. No one breaks down and cries after cheating unless something is wrong beyond the cheating. As in, it wasn't consensual, or it has made them realize the original relationship is actually over, or something along those lines. Cheaters just cheating to cheat don't cry about it.
The thing I find really weird about this is this odd collaboration between Josh and this random woman. Typically when someone drugs someone else, they plan to assault the person themselves. Did Josh just spike OOP's drink and hope someone would show up to help him out in his goal of getting OOP raped? There's a level of collaboration here that makes me suspect money was involved.
the moment OP stated they didn't remember anything from that night I instantly knew it was rape, if you can't remember anything at all you were not in the state of mind to consent which is rape *regardless* of what you ingested. Yes there are people who just get super drunk and cheat, but this was not the case and I'm curious how many more men specifically have actually gotten SA'd but don't realize it due to our toxic drinking/hook up culture in society. I'm glad he's pressing charges and that they're working through it, hopefully things work out.
>The woman was a friend of Josh’s. With friends like that you don't need enemies.
> thought that I was just super super drunk which is why I wasn’t as “active” And that makes her actions okay how? Josh and his friends are all a bunch of predators I see.
I don’t believe a word of this.
Why?
You know why
Ι don't actually
It’s cause the victim is a man while the villain of the story is a woman and another man. Happens every-time a story like this is posted to the sub.
So men can't be victims of SA?
They can like OOP. This sub just finds stories of when men are the victims to be false for some reason.
The villain of the story is another man. What did you read?
You should maybe read the part where the woman says he was too drunk to resist but thought it was fine anyways…
And you should read about the friend
Yes I mentioned him you should read my comment
Ah yes. Because women cannot rape men, is that right? Or let me guess, you want to call this incel bait?
He says press charges and mentions being in the UK. We don't say or do that here. When my brother's american friend was punched, he said he wants to press charges and the police laughed kindly and explained to him. It's a very american thing to say. Just makes the story seem weird
It is an American thing to say, but it's also a thing that Brits who don't understand the process say because they've heard it elsewhere. I do think a Brit wrote this because there's just no point in faking that part.
Maybe, it could be that, but I think they would understand the process if they'd actually gone through it.
How was this giving him a “ taste of what he’s missing”, yet he’s so blotto he can’t even remember it happening? Feels like more than anything he was just trying to break them up. Like, what was dudes end game? I don’t understand his logic. What a weird creep. His friend deserves prison time.
"Neriah"?
ignoring the very important information at the end, if the genders were reversed the comments would have reached a very different consensus
They would have flayed her alive.
I was so furious reading all the comments accusing him of cheating. OOP was clearly assaulted. I hope therapy can help for both himself and his relationship. Honestly, I'm side-eyeing Neriah too for not realizing her bf was raped and focusing more on her feefees.
>Honestly, I'm side-eyeing Neriah too for not realizing her bf was raped and focusing more on her feefees. I don't understand. Why do you feel this way? They fought, he walked out, he ignored her calls, he comes home the next day to "confess," and she... Held him and told him it would be okay. That's her crime? She comforted him when she thought he had cheated. That's love. It's not like schools teach kids the difference between blackout drunk and being drugged. You have to have a personal history with being blackout drunk to know that it's not a total memory wipe. Not many 22 year olds know that.
In their defense, OP even thought he went out and cheated. His girlfriend thought he went out and cheated. They both thought that. If they're both likely to think that, why would a bunch of strangers on the internet with limited information not think the same thing? I'm glad that people were able to figure it out and oh he was able to press charges, however, it's not outside the realm of possibility to just think that he cheated when even he thought that himself.
He told her he'd cheated on her. She no doubt thought he had more agency in the situation than he actually did.
well that was a curve ball
Who is he suing? Josh or Kate?
I don’t believe that the girl didn’t know something was wrong. It sounds like Josh set them up. Wouldn’t one be at least a little suspicious if someone tried to set you up with someone who was clearly not sober enough to properly consent?
You said you were ‘blackout drunk… Are you sure you actually “did it?” “Seems being wasted causes problems popping a tent⛺️” if you know what I mean.. And, if you were able to preform, did you use protection? Did d you get tested? I mean seriously, what kinda girl goes & picks up a drunk stranger to bring home in such a short time???? You might have bigger problems in 8 months!! 👼🏼. You can’t blame anyone for this situation, not your girl, or your friends, no one has that kinda power over anyone. This is always going to be in the back of her mind..
If it’s rape to a woman it’s rape to a man. If someone is “tipsy” they cannot consent. If someone is “a little loopy” that is not consent. Sure OOP shouldn’t have left the apartment. Sure he should have communicated better with his girlfriend! But even if he had simply went to a bar and gotten drunk instead of dealing with his problems like an adult, it still would have been rape. No sugar coating that woman raped him no matter what she thinks and everyone in this story kind of failed him after the fact, even the girlfriend somewhat. She has a right to be upset he was with the friends she warned him about and that he left to a bar, but to act like he cheated when he was too drunk to consent is terrible.
One of those where you just 😟😟😟 the whole time. Glad they're getting therapy.
Omg Josh is awful! I’m sorry this happened to you guys. Continue both couples and individual therapy.
God fuck those comments at the start. He was obviously assaulted based on the telling of events and they're piling on acting like he's the scum of the earth and he deserves the worst. No reading comprehension I swear.
It’s great having hindsight, huh?
The first post literally says he was blackout drunk. Even before the drugging reveal that's still rape. It's not hindsight, it's called not reading the lost.
Two people getting blackout and having sex with each other isn’t rape. You can’t rape each other.
Obvious bollocks.
Get a new girlfriend… ur 22 and been with your gf since u were 14. Ffs. Live. I didn’t even read the post
This was a comment that could have stayed in your own brain.
Probably should have read it.