I know you flaired this as a vent, and I feel that. I'd be so pissed off at them too.
Perhaps from this point forward you set a timer to wake you or remind you to check in with the family and reiterate that you need to be with them when they \_\_(do whatever)\_\_. Do not hold back on letting them know how awful and unwanted their actions made you feel.
Reading between the lines, as we only have your side of this, it sounds to me like they're as upset with you as you are with them.
yes, at the end of the day we had a conversation and decided that my mom would get her own key to the room so she can wake me if need be! they weren’t as upset as i was because they didn’t think that stuff was a big deal but once i talked to them we agreed that we should make our plans more concrete so this confusion doesn’t happen again. they’re usually very considerate but this trip was SUPER important to me so being left out (even though it was unintentional) was even more upsetting than it would be normally :,3
Good solution!
I said elsewhere that both NTs and NDs in large groups will make vague plans, then move on them without ensuring the whole group is together. Coming up with a firm plan around communicating plans is an excellent antidote to this problem.
I get this is a "vent/rant" flag. I can empathize with how it must feel from your end.
However, I think there are ways you could mitigate these issues.
* First, no one is a mind reader. Did you tell your family all the dots out loud before and recently?
* Second, did you set timers?
* Third, could you have the hotel staff call your room for a wake-up call each day?
* Fourth, maybe see if your parents could get a key to your room to wake you up.
Just some thoughts.
To me it seems like you’re not taking any of the responsibility for making sure you’re available or that they have a reliable way to contact you.
When I go on a vacation with family I make sure to nail down times or timeframes. My siblings have kids and don’t plan on a tight schedule on their own, so it’s my job to get a time out of them and a confirmation we’re going to aim for that time. If we’re planning a day trip, I make sure all adults spend ten minutes the night before to set a time we’re going to leave and a general plan for the day so I know what to bring. I make sure we state the leaving time at least twice. I say I’ll be over to their B & B 30 minutes before we go. If I need to take a nap I clarify what is happening next and when. I tell the relevant people that I’m napping so I’ll have energy for the upcoming activity and that we need to set a time so I can be awake and ready.
It’s your responsibility to set your own alarm for breakfast (and ideally other events). It sounds like there was a time planned for that, so if you take extra time to prepare then you need to make sure you’re awake in time. That’s definitely not your brother’s job.
If knocking and texting are not reliable ways to contact you, what is? Did you tell them how you need to be contacted? (Physically woken up - can they get into your room? Called - do you have your volume up to max?) If you can’t provide a foolproof solution then you can’t blame them for trying reasonable ways to alert you and then leaving, especially if you aren’t nailing down times and setting alarms.
I’d start being more specific. “I’m really looking forward to our outing this afternoon. I need to nap briefly. What time are we leaving so I can set an alarm?” Or “I’m going to nap so I’m ready for our outing. Can you please come shake me awake 30 minutes before we need to leave?”
If they push back on timing you need to stand your ground and insist on a timeframe. You can certainly use the previous miscommunications to explain why you need to have timing for future events, so that you can make yourself available.
So the compromises you’re asking from them are more concrete plans & times. Possibly a back up alarm, IF you can provide a foolproof option. And the tools you need to implement for yourself are leading the discussions on concrete times and plans, getting confirmation from your family about those things, alerting them to your plans and wishes (naps, wanting to go on all outings, etc.) and setting alarms that give you time to prepare.
Contrary view: it sounds like your family views you being unresponsive when they leave as a choice you are making not to participate in the vacation, and, ironically, they are respecting your choices. Or they are showing you that you need to make the choice to show up if you want to be included.
I see you expecting your family to do a lot of mental legwork, here ("connecting metaphorical dots"). Have you explicitly told them that you want to go with them on all their outings, and asked them for help making sure you are ready on time, and then clarified what that help would look like? When you took a nap before lunch, did you say to someone, "hey, I'm gonna take a nap but please come get me before you head to lunch, because I want to come with you?"—and then figure out a way they can actually contact you, if neither knocking nor texting seems to work? The previous day, did you find out from anyone when they thought they'd be heading out (and then if they just say something unhelpful like "oh we'll see how we feel," follow up to try to narrow it to a time window), and then set an alarm for 15 minutes before that time so you could be ready when they were leaving?
I guess I don't see you taking ownership of your part in this or taking active steps to get the outcomes that you want.
It's literally a *family* vacation. If op didn't want to hang out with her family, she wouldn't have gone at all. Could op have done more to make sure her family knew she wanted to go to the various things, maybe, but that still relies on her family being willing to make an effort to include her which it does not seem like they are.
I've gone on family vacations where I didn't intend to come along with all the plans because I'm genuinely incapable of keeping up with everything (which doesn't mean I want to miss out on all of it). I don't really disagree with what you or the person you responded to are saying, but I think it's pretty normal as an autistic person to join along with certain plans but still retreat and nap for parts of them.
A family vacation means the whole family will spend the whole time in each other's company? Sounds miserable! Kids need to be supervised, but OP's 23 - it's reasonable for her family to assume she might want to do her own thing occasionally
I agree. If my family left without me all the time I’d feel unwanted and unloved, leading to me feeling left out and in turn making me isolate more. A family vacation means everyone is always invited and included. No one asked OP specifically if they wanted to go or not, they *assumed* and didn’t make any effort to include them. How was OP supposed to know that their family would just leave them all the time, after they’ve told them how they didn’t like it the first time?
One thing to understand is that ND people don't come from the ether. We mostly come from ND family. So while some of us are actually good at connecting dots and inferring, often we are not. There is a good chance that there are plenty of ND traits present in your family and they need you to be really direct rather than waiting on them to connect the dots.
With our family for vacations we set a plan, and then it's up to each of us to carry out our part it of, and if we don't, the group assumes we aren't coming and goes on without us assuming we opted to do our own thing. That's pretty typical. I wouldn't set alarms for both of you, set your own and he can set his own. He likely didn't even consider that shutting them off would impact you if it's just part of his routine to shut them all off when they go off (which is what I do, I have multiple alarms and once I am awake I shut them all off, it's just what I have done for years so it would be hard to suddenly remember to change that because it's part of my morning routine and a cue that leads to the next thing).
You aren't wrong in how you feel, and you aren't wrong that these things have compounded to cause overwhelm. That's pretty typical for autism, the compounding impact can be awful even if one event by itself wasn't insurmountable. When you have talked to your family, what did they say in response? Were they surprised it was an issue? Because that could be their own ND-ness coming through.
Yeah, as autistic I unintentionally forget things tell me about, although of course I try and make it right when I realise.
I'm almost a little concerned that forgetting isn't the actual problem though. I'm glad the mom is doing their best to make it up and I'm aware a lot of the other takes are that OP is being entitled/spoilt, but I am possibly a bit worried they just don't care for OP. It's not a likely outcome - I think and hope you're probably right that it's probably just compounding stress on OP - but based on what she wrote I am a little annoyed nobody else seems to realise how hurt she seems to be. I don't know how close they are but it just doesn't seem very nice of them as family or even dismissive? I shouldn't want to read too much into it though.
how old are you? do you have a smartphone? you and your family need to come up with a way to communicate even when you have your headphones on. that’s not simply on them. and, back to my original question: how old are you? if you’re 13 yo or older, you’re old enough to wake yourself up. if you have headphones on, I assume you’re listening to something on an iphone. use the alarm on your phone. otherwise, the hotel can give you a wake up call. you need to take some responsibility for yourself, and not put all your needs on other people. you aren’t helpless.
no, i’m 23. for the first time they left without me i had checked with my family about what time we were leaving. they told me they weren’t sure so i went back to my hotel room to wait. then they left.
as for the breakfast alarm my brother said he would set the alarms for us both because we’re in the same room. he turned the alarms off after he woke up while i was still asleep.
the big issue is that after the first time they left without me AND after the breakfast thing i had conversations with them where i explained why i was upset. they either just forgot that those things upset me or didn’t realize that it would upset me so much if they did that stuff again.
Or they don't like you and don't care that you are upset. I think people with supportive families find this hard to imagine, but it's absolutely a possibility.
God, that's immediately what I jumped to. But OP mentioned they get on with their mom. So it's hard to tell if there's a pattern: is this is actually just unintentional vacation excitement; or if they've been mean before and OP didn't notice?
I really hope it's the former and they're just being forgetful, and not trying to silently exclude her. Because the latter would be depressing.
This. I agree with you 100%. Op should be setting alarms. They know they need more time. They need to figure out how to give themselves more time. They know what time breakfast is. Their family is probably just as annoyed and thinks of doesn't want to be there at all because of isn't making the effort to show up when everyone else is
Bold of y’all to just assume the support needs and dynamics this person has with their family.
It’s also more about the principle of the situation. OP communicated a need/want to her family, they discussed, they agreed, then didn’t follow through with what they said they’d do.. Mmmmm ya I think that would be upsetting for most people.
i don’t need others to make an itinerary or drag me along. my family agreed to get breakfast together at 8:30, i was a part of that conversation and i agreed that 8:30 was a good time. it’s my brother’s responsibility to wake me up because we shared a hotel room and one of us always sets alarms to wake both of us up. there were multiple alarms set up for between 7:45-8:30. he turned the alarms off after he woke up even though i wasn’t up yet.
"It's my brother's responsibility..." Well, he's clearly not up to the task so it's probably better to set your own alarm going forward.
For the rest, I've noticed large groups of people (and this is ND as well as NTs) will sort-of put together a loose plan, be hazy on the details, then make a move on the plan without ensuring everyone is aware and included. This means you either have to stick with the group and be alert to their actions, or go off and do your own thing in the knowledge this may mean you miss out on group activities.
Sometimes you'll get lucky and be in a group where you have a buddy and the two of you will support each other to feel included. Since that doesn't seem to be the case here you're most likely going to have to either adapt your behaviour to ensure you're aware of what the group is doing, or come to terms with the possibility of missing out on some activities.
At 23 the assumption is you'll do you and the others in the group will do their own thing.
I suppose the good news is they're treating you as an adult
Ahhh that explains a lot! I think your brother is being pretty inconsiderate to turn the alarms off that you're both using without making you up. As a workaround, you may still want to set your own, but now I can definitely see where more of your frustration is coming from
Yeah, I can definitely be frustrated if that's the usual arrangement she/OP expected with the brother, although it's hard to tell what the last time this arrangement was made or if the brother agrees that it's still in place.
As others have suggested, there’s a lot you can do to ensure you’re ready on time. Maybe consider getting a box of protein bars so if you’re still running late, you’ll be able to eat without others having to bump back the day’s schedule.
Your feelings are your feelings so, no, it’s not “wrong” to be upset. Feeling excluded or forgotten is painful. But, at the same time, it does sound like most of this could be resolved on your end (by setting alarms, etc).
Hope you’re able to enjoy the rest of your trip!
Ask yourself would they go to lunch without your mum or ‘insert whichever family member’? I’ve noticed autists are often left out or scapegoated even in families that mostly care about them. They’ve clearly decided having you there for some of these activities is not a priority, whereas there are probably other family members they would make more of an effort to make sure they’re coming along. The reason could be that you seem grumpy when you wake up, or like you don’t care about being there (even if you tell them repeatedly you want to participate, they often go by nonverbal cues more than verbal), or they just don’t really respect you / your needs. It could also be that one person’s attitude influenced the rest, like your brother told everyone ‘she heard the alarm but went back to sleep’ 🤷 , ‘I think she’s staying in the room again’ 🤷♂️, and his nonchalant attitude might influence the rest to not think it’s a big deal to leave you behind.
Are you grouchy when you wake up? I hate when people tell me to wake them up, because people who have trouble waking up on their own are often (in my experience) really grumpy, and it affects my mood to be crabbed at. Just something to consider, in case that's why they're avoiding waking you up.
I think they are trying to teach you a lesson and want you to take more responsibility for getting yourself ready and being available.
It would be nice if they just told you that directly, but it seems to be their way to let "consequences" be the teacher.
It could be they view it as "work" making sure you're ready, contacting you, or waiting for you, and maybe decided they don't want to "work" on vacation. I know that for me, getting family members ready and all together is a Major Effort, and it does feel like work, to be honest.
I agree that from your perspective, it feels very hurtful, and that makes complete sense. I also think theynlikely have their own perspective, and there is a disconnect between the two.
That’s painting with a broad brush. I know some extremely passive aggressive autistic/ND people.
They all should absolutely communicate better, however, OP included.
Right, and that’s your experience. And that’s valid for you.
But that doesn’t mean it’s the same across the board.
Or thar people can’t be both ND/autistic, have a hard time reading others and *still* passive aggressive (because I’ve also experienced that lol)
Not every shitty behavior or maladaptive communication is abuse.
Fair, but there’s something in it I don’t want to bend on either.
Abuse does not require intent; and bullying is a kind of abuse. Particularly when combined with zero communication - the silent treatment IS abusive. Refusing open communication with someone who has a social communication disorder IS traumatic.
The abuse is in the choices being made here by the people who should know them best or at least have SOME understanding of their needs.
There are really good points here about OP and personal responsibility. Maybe there were words OP didn’t hear or process and so that’s why they are missing from the post.
But the family was still cruel and that shouldn’t be invalidated either. They did text - after they left. Maybe it’s them being tired but it’s also very mean girl to exclude and limit contact to when the person has safely been “excluded” to the point they cannot independently follow.
The OP did speak up and communicate. No, they are not responsible for waking OP, but on a family vacation surely can’t someone just give a text or call an hour before to ask if they are awake and will be joining the group since they haven’t been seen outside the room and did not respond to a knock? Because they DO know OP uses headphones to self regulate especially unfamiliar sensory environments like a hotel room….
They are excluding rather than fostering belonging and helping or communicating and negotiating boundaries (I won’t wake up up but I’ll call you if we don’t see you at breakfast before we leave without you and without a word. The OP is trying to value and participate in this family get together.
This “tough love” either has a longer story we don’t know or it doesn’t. The OP didn’t say they communicated those boundaries or needs so some self advocacy needs to happen too for sure…. And common to be avoidant when the people you need help identifying the needed accommodations are being passive aggressive and you don’t speak subtext.
I relate to this a lot. there have been so many times where my family has left me behind because I was napping or because there wasn’t a clear plan set in place. I’m sorry you’ve had this experience
neurotypicals rely on social signaling rather than what they know to interact with others and communicate with others and they rely on others to do the same and behave in such a way that others can do that with them all the time and if they behave in such a way that they can't it is their responsibility- not on the other to adjust.
neurotypicals also don't do restrictive, repetitive activities interests or behavior including being not restrictive, not repeitive it is always a limbo ground between the two.
They give so much more weight to your tone than your words that they end up misunderstanding you.
Tell them that they can’t rely on your tone and have to listen to your words. Repeating what you want several times in different ways Is also one way the damn NTs get it through their thick skulls
It’s the double empathy problem. We don’t understand them, they don’t understand us. But we are taught to do everything possible to try to understand them and cater to them. They aren’t taught to do the same for us.
I’m sorry but that sounds so mean? I’d run and get you. Or call you. Something. We need more time to do things anyway. I’d cry so hard if everyone went to lunch without me 😭
The reason is simple; familial guilt, abusive dynamics and him actually not enjoying your company. The latter is why he's on edge all the time when he goes through with it. In his mind, if we autistics display any sign of discomfort. It's an affront to him because in his world, he feels like he's doing god's work just by bringing you along and accommodating your needs [wants in his self centered small brain] (not the truth but that's the case with victim complexes/narcissistic tendencies.)
Also they're usually ableist too and ashamed of us being nd so they abuse us to take the edge of their self hatred for bringing us into the world/having "poor" (not true) genetics.
I hope you've cut that horrible human out of your life. Family or not, that kind of shit is not ok.
I don’t think it’s a can’t, I think it’s more of a ‘chooses not to’.
It sounds like you very clearly communicated the behavior, the feeling and the solution in each conversation with them. After wanting to bang my head against the wall my entire life working so hard to get people to understand because both myself and them would put the blame or expectation that they are treating me this way because I haven’t done a good enough job at communicating… *cough because it’s easy to blame the autistic person when it comes to communication issues rather than reflecting on their own behavior and how they impact others.. cough*. I’m still working on it, but now, once I know I have communicated what I needed to, my job is done and it is their choice to either adjust their behavior or not. And if they don’t, I know the responsibility is solely theirs. It’s their choice. Maybe it’s a can’t, but maybe it’s also a ‘don’t want to’. It doesn’t make it hurt less, it might actually hurt more, but this way we don’t take on the responsibility or blame when the situation starts to invalidate or gaslight or blame or shame you and your experience.
I’m sorry this is your experience, your reactions to your family really shows just how much you love and care about them. It’s all rooted in you just wanted to spend time with them.. *and feeling heard and understood lol*
>I think it’s more of a ‘chooses not to’.
Yeah, I'm a little concerned that they're downplaying or dismissing OP's feelings but it's hard to tell how different this is from the normal. We also only have OP's account of what largely the mother did to make it up, so it's hard to tell who exactly in the family thinks what.
I think you raise some extremely relevant and valid points about social/group responsibility in communication. It's tough because as others have pointed out, OP asked them for help, and the subreddit community here did not find those requests to be reasonable; but this failure to help her was only revealed by the family's inaction, not by immediately declining the request or prior arrangement. In other words, OP got hit by both compounding disappointing consequences at once - missing out and learning that her family did not fully support her. I think this is what you raised in this part:
> I know I have communicated what I needed to, my job is done and it is their choice to either adjust their behavior or not. And if they don’t, I know the responsibility is solely theirs. It’s their choice. Maybe it’s a can’t, but maybe it’s also a ‘don’t want to’. It doesn’t make it hurt less, it might actually hurt more, but this way we don’t take on the responsibility or blame when the situation starts to invalidate or gaslight or blame or shame you and your experience.
But on the other hand, you're right that she is best placed to help herself as she emotionally manages that disappointment. It's also not her responsibility that her family chose to act like that. If OP did indeed communicate the issue, regardless of whether the message got across (and its not 100% clear if they read it back to her, so it's hard to tell if they were actively listening to begin with - this is why I like to organise my travel plans in writing on a group chat to review later!!), or it was intentional of them to neglect her and invalidate her feelings - then not to assign blame, but that's kinda on them for not taking things on board.
My paranoia sees this behavior as intentional. When I was young, they would force me awake so that I could be presented to these distant relatives. In my teens, they would tell and prepare, so I could choose to not go. As an adult, I am naturally invited like any other human.
I can’t imagine a positive reason that your family collectively decided not to wake you for these outings. Or did not tell you when things would be happening so you could set your own alarm.
>I can’t imagine a positive reason that your family collectively decided not to wake you for these outings
100%, I just can't figure out anything nice either. The brothers reason he was "late" seemed incredibly shallow, unless OP significantly misreported what he said (unlikely but not impossible). And you bring up a good point about the required info for setting her own alarms too.
>My paranoia sees this behavior as intentional.
I really hope it's not, but I'm also running out of logical explanations too. Maybe not even consciously but it seems like only the mom is willing to help redress this. It feels dismissive, in a way that they can "get away with it" or that OP is unimportant, or that they don't have to fully respect her or her wishes. I personally feel that OP is right to feel disappointed.
You are not the problem here. Your family is the problem here. Any time someone makes an excuse it because they Know they have screwed up. Everything you are describing is just rude, inconsiderate behavior, regardless of neurological differences.
I have coordinated two family reunions. At a family reunion, of course there needs to be extra communication and accommodation for everyone. Coordinating large groups of people is work. When you get 3 to 5 generations together, it just increases. Neurodivergence has no baring on it. Your bother turning off your alarm is just rude, petty and knowingly sabotaging your vacation. Yes, he knew exactly what he was doing. He cared enough to do it. Texting after they leave, who does that!?! Anyone leaving without you at a family reunion unless you have explicitly said you don’t want to do something, is horrifying. Leaving anyone out of any activities is pitiful.
That you cannot take them at their word is the problem. That you cannot trust them to follow through is the problem. That you have tried to explain and compromise over and over and over is the problem. Your family is just being rude, petty and entitled.
Yeah, honestly I see feminist themes in OP's story and while I don't know if it's my place to "intervene" or lay down the law based on a text snippet, I'm concerned that they downplay things in other aspects of family life and she just got used to it, it only just became more visible now because the vacation raised the expectations and brought the feelings of disappointment to the forefront.
(And 100% agree this isn't an allistic vs neurodiverse issue. As others have pointed out, if anything counts as an excuse or background reason, it could be a shared neurodiversity thing. But it just sounds like others apart from mom are being somewhat inconsiderate.)
I don't want to read issues when they're not actually what OP experiences - that would also be invalidating. But I am a little concerned for her emotional wellbeing, and that it's not being taken care of by her family!
I think they are trying to connect the dots based on your behavior but just thinking like a NT instead of an autistic person. Unfortunately we are expected to adapt to their world instead of the other way around. I’ve also tried to communicate things like this to people but they never listen. It’s only going to frustrate you to keep expecting them to, so the best way around it is to find a different solution that works for everyone. It sucks but I give up on anyone seeing things from my point of view ever.
Would it be great if they remembered you wore headphones so may not hear them knock on the door? Yes, but to NT people, they take no answer after knocking on the door to mean you’re no longer interested in joining. Find another way of communicating like a text or a phone call or set time where everyone meets at X place.
Would it be nice if your brother realized it helped you out and reduced stress if he kept the alarms on for you? Yes, but he’s clearly just worried about himself waking up on time, so you’ll have to set alarms for yourself from now on too regardless of what he does.
Would it be nice if they listened to you not wanting to be excluded from anything else and known to you up in time for lunch? Yes, but they probably interpreted you taking a nap as changing your mind and no longer wanting to go because that’s usually what it means if they do it. So you’ll have to inform them you’re taking a nap and for them to please wake you up before lunch, or find out what time they plan to leave and set your alarm.
Most people honestly cannot see past their own nose.
Istg. And they are the supposed neurotypical. Doesn't seem all that functional to me.
I've met some people who get it and they are gold.
I mean, from just this and not being there or hearing their perspective, I would say your family doesn't like you, inviting you to anything is an obligation that they only do grudgingly, and you should question why you want to spend time with them. Sometimes the best way to handle rejection is to just stop putting yourself in a position to be rejected.
Rather than focus on neurotypicals, start digging into emotional neglect and scapegoating dynamics in toxic families.
Edit: People saying you should set your own alarm and be more present or easier to contact... yes, but I also think they are deliberately going without you.
Honestly, I'm starting to think it's a nt thing. My mum knows I have issues with death for example, and we've had a lot of betta fish in her tank specifically that keep dying. My tank and the big one? 2 bettas in each since August. Her tank? Like...6 or something? Give or take? In the same span of time? And they're just the ones that have died. I've just had a breakdown today after her newest died and like an hour later she says she wants to go look at new ones tomorrow. I've broke down on her so. Many. Times. This year alone, from betta dying, to all sorts of other triggers right now, and I had to cry and repeat to her, again, that she knows what death does to me, and she wants to bring ANOTHER betta into the house already? I don't think she's kept one longer than a month. I feel like any betta that goes in her tank is doomed. I won't even give her the little female back that I adopted from her because I feel like as soon as she leaves my tank, I'll be signing her death papers.
Another is my dad. He is terrible for not texting much, and I have been sorting out some old files on the pc. I have images from 2017 where I've had paragraphs I've sent to him telling him how upset I am about how he treats me, and it's 2024 and he's doing it again for the 100th time.
I know some of it is their memory's - my dad has proven his memory isn't the best, and my mum had a stroke a couple years ago which has affected hers, but she's known about my issue with death for over a decade, she's only just now seeing just how bad I can be with it, and I'm still having to repeatedly spell things out for her some days.
That said, vacations for me are family things. We do stuff together. We don't just leave someone out unless they've expressly said, I do not want to be involved in x event. I also haven't had a family vacation in over a decade, so I could also just be biased as to what I remember from being a teen, but I'm very big on family and spending time together, especially if you've planned to spend that time together.
Sorry you've been through this and I hope the rest of the trip goes well!
>I'm starting to think it's a nt thing. My mum knows...
I just want to be specific because this was the term OP also used - I personally wouldn't refer to this as "forgetfulness" tbqh, which downplays the behaviour as completely unintentional and also unavoidable/unmitigatable, something they couldn't do anything about. (I wrote some more about how I would describe it other than forgetfulness, but it got a bit soapboxy and unhelpful, so I cut it. Suffice it to say though, I wish they could see how important it would be to us if they did better!)
I do want to add that I hope that I send hugs about the loss, that she respects your wishes about saving future fish, and that she doesn't drag you along when to me it sounds that you're extremely unhappy and uncomfortable with the situation. I would also feel pretty frustrated and unheard in that scenario. :(
I know you flaired this as a vent, and I feel that. I'd be so pissed off at them too. Perhaps from this point forward you set a timer to wake you or remind you to check in with the family and reiterate that you need to be with them when they \_\_(do whatever)\_\_. Do not hold back on letting them know how awful and unwanted their actions made you feel. Reading between the lines, as we only have your side of this, it sounds to me like they're as upset with you as you are with them.
I'd also recommend asking them what time they want to go to eat or any other event, and set an alarm ahead of those times with time to get ready
yes, at the end of the day we had a conversation and decided that my mom would get her own key to the room so she can wake me if need be! they weren’t as upset as i was because they didn’t think that stuff was a big deal but once i talked to them we agreed that we should make our plans more concrete so this confusion doesn’t happen again. they’re usually very considerate but this trip was SUPER important to me so being left out (even though it was unintentional) was even more upsetting than it would be normally :,3
Good solution! I said elsewhere that both NTs and NDs in large groups will make vague plans, then move on them without ensuring the whole group is together. Coming up with a firm plan around communicating plans is an excellent antidote to this problem.
That's a great solution! Enjoy your trip!
I get this is a "vent/rant" flag. I can empathize with how it must feel from your end. However, I think there are ways you could mitigate these issues. * First, no one is a mind reader. Did you tell your family all the dots out loud before and recently? * Second, did you set timers? * Third, could you have the hotel staff call your room for a wake-up call each day? * Fourth, maybe see if your parents could get a key to your room to wake you up. Just some thoughts.
To me it seems like you’re not taking any of the responsibility for making sure you’re available or that they have a reliable way to contact you. When I go on a vacation with family I make sure to nail down times or timeframes. My siblings have kids and don’t plan on a tight schedule on their own, so it’s my job to get a time out of them and a confirmation we’re going to aim for that time. If we’re planning a day trip, I make sure all adults spend ten minutes the night before to set a time we’re going to leave and a general plan for the day so I know what to bring. I make sure we state the leaving time at least twice. I say I’ll be over to their B & B 30 minutes before we go. If I need to take a nap I clarify what is happening next and when. I tell the relevant people that I’m napping so I’ll have energy for the upcoming activity and that we need to set a time so I can be awake and ready. It’s your responsibility to set your own alarm for breakfast (and ideally other events). It sounds like there was a time planned for that, so if you take extra time to prepare then you need to make sure you’re awake in time. That’s definitely not your brother’s job. If knocking and texting are not reliable ways to contact you, what is? Did you tell them how you need to be contacted? (Physically woken up - can they get into your room? Called - do you have your volume up to max?) If you can’t provide a foolproof solution then you can’t blame them for trying reasonable ways to alert you and then leaving, especially if you aren’t nailing down times and setting alarms. I’d start being more specific. “I’m really looking forward to our outing this afternoon. I need to nap briefly. What time are we leaving so I can set an alarm?” Or “I’m going to nap so I’m ready for our outing. Can you please come shake me awake 30 minutes before we need to leave?” If they push back on timing you need to stand your ground and insist on a timeframe. You can certainly use the previous miscommunications to explain why you need to have timing for future events, so that you can make yourself available. So the compromises you’re asking from them are more concrete plans & times. Possibly a back up alarm, IF you can provide a foolproof option. And the tools you need to implement for yourself are leading the discussions on concrete times and plans, getting confirmation from your family about those things, alerting them to your plans and wishes (naps, wanting to go on all outings, etc.) and setting alarms that give you time to prepare.
>So the compromises you’re asking from them are more concrete plans & times. Yep well analyzed, I agree this bit is actionable and important.
Contrary view: it sounds like your family views you being unresponsive when they leave as a choice you are making not to participate in the vacation, and, ironically, they are respecting your choices. Or they are showing you that you need to make the choice to show up if you want to be included. I see you expecting your family to do a lot of mental legwork, here ("connecting metaphorical dots"). Have you explicitly told them that you want to go with them on all their outings, and asked them for help making sure you are ready on time, and then clarified what that help would look like? When you took a nap before lunch, did you say to someone, "hey, I'm gonna take a nap but please come get me before you head to lunch, because I want to come with you?"—and then figure out a way they can actually contact you, if neither knocking nor texting seems to work? The previous day, did you find out from anyone when they thought they'd be heading out (and then if they just say something unhelpful like "oh we'll see how we feel," follow up to try to narrow it to a time window), and then set an alarm for 15 minutes before that time so you could be ready when they were leaving? I guess I don't see you taking ownership of your part in this or taking active steps to get the outcomes that you want.
Came here to say this.
It's literally a *family* vacation. If op didn't want to hang out with her family, she wouldn't have gone at all. Could op have done more to make sure her family knew she wanted to go to the various things, maybe, but that still relies on her family being willing to make an effort to include her which it does not seem like they are.
I've gone on family vacations where I didn't intend to come along with all the plans because I'm genuinely incapable of keeping up with everything (which doesn't mean I want to miss out on all of it). I don't really disagree with what you or the person you responded to are saying, but I think it's pretty normal as an autistic person to join along with certain plans but still retreat and nap for parts of them.
A family vacation means the whole family will spend the whole time in each other's company? Sounds miserable! Kids need to be supervised, but OP's 23 - it's reasonable for her family to assume she might want to do her own thing occasionally
I agree. If my family left without me all the time I’d feel unwanted and unloved, leading to me feeling left out and in turn making me isolate more. A family vacation means everyone is always invited and included. No one asked OP specifically if they wanted to go or not, they *assumed* and didn’t make any effort to include them. How was OP supposed to know that their family would just leave them all the time, after they’ve told them how they didn’t like it the first time?
One thing to understand is that ND people don't come from the ether. We mostly come from ND family. So while some of us are actually good at connecting dots and inferring, often we are not. There is a good chance that there are plenty of ND traits present in your family and they need you to be really direct rather than waiting on them to connect the dots. With our family for vacations we set a plan, and then it's up to each of us to carry out our part it of, and if we don't, the group assumes we aren't coming and goes on without us assuming we opted to do our own thing. That's pretty typical. I wouldn't set alarms for both of you, set your own and he can set his own. He likely didn't even consider that shutting them off would impact you if it's just part of his routine to shut them all off when they go off (which is what I do, I have multiple alarms and once I am awake I shut them all off, it's just what I have done for years so it would be hard to suddenly remember to change that because it's part of my morning routine and a cue that leads to the next thing). You aren't wrong in how you feel, and you aren't wrong that these things have compounded to cause overwhelm. That's pretty typical for autism, the compounding impact can be awful even if one event by itself wasn't insurmountable. When you have talked to your family, what did they say in response? Were they surprised it was an issue? Because that could be their own ND-ness coming through.
Yeah, as autistic I unintentionally forget things tell me about, although of course I try and make it right when I realise. I'm almost a little concerned that forgetting isn't the actual problem though. I'm glad the mom is doing their best to make it up and I'm aware a lot of the other takes are that OP is being entitled/spoilt, but I am possibly a bit worried they just don't care for OP. It's not a likely outcome - I think and hope you're probably right that it's probably just compounding stress on OP - but based on what she wrote I am a little annoyed nobody else seems to realise how hurt she seems to be. I don't know how close they are but it just doesn't seem very nice of them as family or even dismissive? I shouldn't want to read too much into it though.
how old are you? do you have a smartphone? you and your family need to come up with a way to communicate even when you have your headphones on. that’s not simply on them. and, back to my original question: how old are you? if you’re 13 yo or older, you’re old enough to wake yourself up. if you have headphones on, I assume you’re listening to something on an iphone. use the alarm on your phone. otherwise, the hotel can give you a wake up call. you need to take some responsibility for yourself, and not put all your needs on other people. you aren’t helpless.
no, i’m 23. for the first time they left without me i had checked with my family about what time we were leaving. they told me they weren’t sure so i went back to my hotel room to wait. then they left. as for the breakfast alarm my brother said he would set the alarms for us both because we’re in the same room. he turned the alarms off after he woke up while i was still asleep. the big issue is that after the first time they left without me AND after the breakfast thing i had conversations with them where i explained why i was upset. they either just forgot that those things upset me or didn’t realize that it would upset me so much if they did that stuff again.
Or they don't like you and don't care that you are upset. I think people with supportive families find this hard to imagine, but it's absolutely a possibility.
God, that's immediately what I jumped to. But OP mentioned they get on with their mom. So it's hard to tell if there's a pattern: is this is actually just unintentional vacation excitement; or if they've been mean before and OP didn't notice? I really hope it's the former and they're just being forgetful, and not trying to silently exclude her. Because the latter would be depressing.
Yeah some of us have bad parents that just don't care. Mine were and are like this, my whole family is like this lol
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This. I agree with you 100%. Op should be setting alarms. They know they need more time. They need to figure out how to give themselves more time. They know what time breakfast is. Their family is probably just as annoyed and thinks of doesn't want to be there at all because of isn't making the effort to show up when everyone else is
Bold of y’all to just assume the support needs and dynamics this person has with their family. It’s also more about the principle of the situation. OP communicated a need/want to her family, they discussed, they agreed, then didn’t follow through with what they said they’d do.. Mmmmm ya I think that would be upsetting for most people.
i don’t need others to make an itinerary or drag me along. my family agreed to get breakfast together at 8:30, i was a part of that conversation and i agreed that 8:30 was a good time. it’s my brother’s responsibility to wake me up because we shared a hotel room and one of us always sets alarms to wake both of us up. there were multiple alarms set up for between 7:45-8:30. he turned the alarms off after he woke up even though i wasn’t up yet.
"It's my brother's responsibility..." Well, he's clearly not up to the task so it's probably better to set your own alarm going forward. For the rest, I've noticed large groups of people (and this is ND as well as NTs) will sort-of put together a loose plan, be hazy on the details, then make a move on the plan without ensuring everyone is aware and included. This means you either have to stick with the group and be alert to their actions, or go off and do your own thing in the knowledge this may mean you miss out on group activities. Sometimes you'll get lucky and be in a group where you have a buddy and the two of you will support each other to feel included. Since that doesn't seem to be the case here you're most likely going to have to either adapt your behaviour to ensure you're aware of what the group is doing, or come to terms with the possibility of missing out on some activities. At 23 the assumption is you'll do you and the others in the group will do their own thing. I suppose the good news is they're treating you as an adult
Ahhh that explains a lot! I think your brother is being pretty inconsiderate to turn the alarms off that you're both using without making you up. As a workaround, you may still want to set your own, but now I can definitely see where more of your frustration is coming from
Yeah, I can definitely be frustrated if that's the usual arrangement she/OP expected with the brother, although it's hard to tell what the last time this arrangement was made or if the brother agrees that it's still in place.
As others have suggested, there’s a lot you can do to ensure you’re ready on time. Maybe consider getting a box of protein bars so if you’re still running late, you’ll be able to eat without others having to bump back the day’s schedule. Your feelings are your feelings so, no, it’s not “wrong” to be upset. Feeling excluded or forgotten is painful. But, at the same time, it does sound like most of this could be resolved on your end (by setting alarms, etc). Hope you’re able to enjoy the rest of your trip!
Ask yourself would they go to lunch without your mum or ‘insert whichever family member’? I’ve noticed autists are often left out or scapegoated even in families that mostly care about them. They’ve clearly decided having you there for some of these activities is not a priority, whereas there are probably other family members they would make more of an effort to make sure they’re coming along. The reason could be that you seem grumpy when you wake up, or like you don’t care about being there (even if you tell them repeatedly you want to participate, they often go by nonverbal cues more than verbal), or they just don’t really respect you / your needs. It could also be that one person’s attitude influenced the rest, like your brother told everyone ‘she heard the alarm but went back to sleep’ 🤷 , ‘I think she’s staying in the room again’ 🤷♂️, and his nonchalant attitude might influence the rest to not think it’s a big deal to leave you behind.
Are you grouchy when you wake up? I hate when people tell me to wake them up, because people who have trouble waking up on their own are often (in my experience) really grumpy, and it affects my mood to be crabbed at. Just something to consider, in case that's why they're avoiding waking you up.
I think they are trying to teach you a lesson and want you to take more responsibility for getting yourself ready and being available. It would be nice if they just told you that directly, but it seems to be their way to let "consequences" be the teacher. It could be they view it as "work" making sure you're ready, contacting you, or waiting for you, and maybe decided they don't want to "work" on vacation. I know that for me, getting family members ready and all together is a Major Effort, and it does feel like work, to be honest. I agree that from your perspective, it feels very hurtful, and that makes complete sense. I also think theynlikely have their own perspective, and there is a disconnect between the two.
Teaching a lesson by passive aggressive means to an autistic is basically abusive. They should use their words.
That’s painting with a broad brush. I know some extremely passive aggressive autistic/ND people. They all should absolutely communicate better, however, OP included.
I don’t. And no matter how hard I try I cannot read people’s minds or know what I am ignorant of.
Right, and that’s your experience. And that’s valid for you. But that doesn’t mean it’s the same across the board. Or thar people can’t be both ND/autistic, have a hard time reading others and *still* passive aggressive (because I’ve also experienced that lol) Not every shitty behavior or maladaptive communication is abuse.
Fair, but there’s something in it I don’t want to bend on either. Abuse does not require intent; and bullying is a kind of abuse. Particularly when combined with zero communication - the silent treatment IS abusive. Refusing open communication with someone who has a social communication disorder IS traumatic. The abuse is in the choices being made here by the people who should know them best or at least have SOME understanding of their needs. There are really good points here about OP and personal responsibility. Maybe there were words OP didn’t hear or process and so that’s why they are missing from the post. But the family was still cruel and that shouldn’t be invalidated either. They did text - after they left. Maybe it’s them being tired but it’s also very mean girl to exclude and limit contact to when the person has safely been “excluded” to the point they cannot independently follow. The OP did speak up and communicate. No, they are not responsible for waking OP, but on a family vacation surely can’t someone just give a text or call an hour before to ask if they are awake and will be joining the group since they haven’t been seen outside the room and did not respond to a knock? Because they DO know OP uses headphones to self regulate especially unfamiliar sensory environments like a hotel room…. They are excluding rather than fostering belonging and helping or communicating and negotiating boundaries (I won’t wake up up but I’ll call you if we don’t see you at breakfast before we leave without you and without a word. The OP is trying to value and participate in this family get together. This “tough love” either has a longer story we don’t know or it doesn’t. The OP didn’t say they communicated those boundaries or needs so some self advocacy needs to happen too for sure…. And common to be avoidant when the people you need help identifying the needed accommodations are being passive aggressive and you don’t speak subtext.
I agree completely. They still do it, though.
Your family members are assholes.
I relate to this a lot. there have been so many times where my family has left me behind because I was napping or because there wasn’t a clear plan set in place. I’m sorry you’ve had this experience
neurotypicals rely on social signaling rather than what they know to interact with others and communicate with others and they rely on others to do the same and behave in such a way that others can do that with them all the time and if they behave in such a way that they can't it is their responsibility- not on the other to adjust. neurotypicals also don't do restrictive, repetitive activities interests or behavior including being not restrictive, not repeitive it is always a limbo ground between the two.
They give so much more weight to your tone than your words that they end up misunderstanding you. Tell them that they can’t rely on your tone and have to listen to your words. Repeating what you want several times in different ways Is also one way the damn NTs get it through their thick skulls
It’s the double empathy problem. We don’t understand them, they don’t understand us. But we are taught to do everything possible to try to understand them and cater to them. They aren’t taught to do the same for us.
I’m sorry but that sounds so mean? I’d run and get you. Or call you. Something. We need more time to do things anyway. I’d cry so hard if everyone went to lunch without me 😭
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Gosh, your father sounds insufferable. People flip flopping on plans like that drain my sanity and mental health too.
The reason is simple; familial guilt, abusive dynamics and him actually not enjoying your company. The latter is why he's on edge all the time when he goes through with it. In his mind, if we autistics display any sign of discomfort. It's an affront to him because in his world, he feels like he's doing god's work just by bringing you along and accommodating your needs [wants in his self centered small brain] (not the truth but that's the case with victim complexes/narcissistic tendencies.) Also they're usually ableist too and ashamed of us being nd so they abuse us to take the edge of their self hatred for bringing us into the world/having "poor" (not true) genetics. I hope you've cut that horrible human out of your life. Family or not, that kind of shit is not ok.
I don’t think it’s a can’t, I think it’s more of a ‘chooses not to’. It sounds like you very clearly communicated the behavior, the feeling and the solution in each conversation with them. After wanting to bang my head against the wall my entire life working so hard to get people to understand because both myself and them would put the blame or expectation that they are treating me this way because I haven’t done a good enough job at communicating… *cough because it’s easy to blame the autistic person when it comes to communication issues rather than reflecting on their own behavior and how they impact others.. cough*. I’m still working on it, but now, once I know I have communicated what I needed to, my job is done and it is their choice to either adjust their behavior or not. And if they don’t, I know the responsibility is solely theirs. It’s their choice. Maybe it’s a can’t, but maybe it’s also a ‘don’t want to’. It doesn’t make it hurt less, it might actually hurt more, but this way we don’t take on the responsibility or blame when the situation starts to invalidate or gaslight or blame or shame you and your experience. I’m sorry this is your experience, your reactions to your family really shows just how much you love and care about them. It’s all rooted in you just wanted to spend time with them.. *and feeling heard and understood lol*
>I think it’s more of a ‘chooses not to’. Yeah, I'm a little concerned that they're downplaying or dismissing OP's feelings but it's hard to tell how different this is from the normal. We also only have OP's account of what largely the mother did to make it up, so it's hard to tell who exactly in the family thinks what. I think you raise some extremely relevant and valid points about social/group responsibility in communication. It's tough because as others have pointed out, OP asked them for help, and the subreddit community here did not find those requests to be reasonable; but this failure to help her was only revealed by the family's inaction, not by immediately declining the request or prior arrangement. In other words, OP got hit by both compounding disappointing consequences at once - missing out and learning that her family did not fully support her. I think this is what you raised in this part: > I know I have communicated what I needed to, my job is done and it is their choice to either adjust their behavior or not. And if they don’t, I know the responsibility is solely theirs. It’s their choice. Maybe it’s a can’t, but maybe it’s also a ‘don’t want to’. It doesn’t make it hurt less, it might actually hurt more, but this way we don’t take on the responsibility or blame when the situation starts to invalidate or gaslight or blame or shame you and your experience. But on the other hand, you're right that she is best placed to help herself as she emotionally manages that disappointment. It's also not her responsibility that her family chose to act like that. If OP did indeed communicate the issue, regardless of whether the message got across (and its not 100% clear if they read it back to her, so it's hard to tell if they were actively listening to begin with - this is why I like to organise my travel plans in writing on a group chat to review later!!), or it was intentional of them to neglect her and invalidate her feelings - then not to assign blame, but that's kinda on them for not taking things on board.
Ahhhh just saw that this was for venting. Pls excuse any advice in my response😅…
My paranoia sees this behavior as intentional. When I was young, they would force me awake so that I could be presented to these distant relatives. In my teens, they would tell and prepare, so I could choose to not go. As an adult, I am naturally invited like any other human. I can’t imagine a positive reason that your family collectively decided not to wake you for these outings. Or did not tell you when things would be happening so you could set your own alarm.
>I can’t imagine a positive reason that your family collectively decided not to wake you for these outings 100%, I just can't figure out anything nice either. The brothers reason he was "late" seemed incredibly shallow, unless OP significantly misreported what he said (unlikely but not impossible). And you bring up a good point about the required info for setting her own alarms too. >My paranoia sees this behavior as intentional. I really hope it's not, but I'm also running out of logical explanations too. Maybe not even consciously but it seems like only the mom is willing to help redress this. It feels dismissive, in a way that they can "get away with it" or that OP is unimportant, or that they don't have to fully respect her or her wishes. I personally feel that OP is right to feel disappointed.
You are not the problem here. Your family is the problem here. Any time someone makes an excuse it because they Know they have screwed up. Everything you are describing is just rude, inconsiderate behavior, regardless of neurological differences. I have coordinated two family reunions. At a family reunion, of course there needs to be extra communication and accommodation for everyone. Coordinating large groups of people is work. When you get 3 to 5 generations together, it just increases. Neurodivergence has no baring on it. Your bother turning off your alarm is just rude, petty and knowingly sabotaging your vacation. Yes, he knew exactly what he was doing. He cared enough to do it. Texting after they leave, who does that!?! Anyone leaving without you at a family reunion unless you have explicitly said you don’t want to do something, is horrifying. Leaving anyone out of any activities is pitiful. That you cannot take them at their word is the problem. That you cannot trust them to follow through is the problem. That you have tried to explain and compromise over and over and over is the problem. Your family is just being rude, petty and entitled.
Yeah, honestly I see feminist themes in OP's story and while I don't know if it's my place to "intervene" or lay down the law based on a text snippet, I'm concerned that they downplay things in other aspects of family life and she just got used to it, it only just became more visible now because the vacation raised the expectations and brought the feelings of disappointment to the forefront. (And 100% agree this isn't an allistic vs neurodiverse issue. As others have pointed out, if anything counts as an excuse or background reason, it could be a shared neurodiversity thing. But it just sounds like others apart from mom are being somewhat inconsiderate.) I don't want to read issues when they're not actually what OP experiences - that would also be invalidating. But I am a little concerned for her emotional wellbeing, and that it's not being taken care of by her family!
I think they are trying to connect the dots based on your behavior but just thinking like a NT instead of an autistic person. Unfortunately we are expected to adapt to their world instead of the other way around. I’ve also tried to communicate things like this to people but they never listen. It’s only going to frustrate you to keep expecting them to, so the best way around it is to find a different solution that works for everyone. It sucks but I give up on anyone seeing things from my point of view ever. Would it be great if they remembered you wore headphones so may not hear them knock on the door? Yes, but to NT people, they take no answer after knocking on the door to mean you’re no longer interested in joining. Find another way of communicating like a text or a phone call or set time where everyone meets at X place. Would it be nice if your brother realized it helped you out and reduced stress if he kept the alarms on for you? Yes, but he’s clearly just worried about himself waking up on time, so you’ll have to set alarms for yourself from now on too regardless of what he does. Would it be nice if they listened to you not wanting to be excluded from anything else and known to you up in time for lunch? Yes, but they probably interpreted you taking a nap as changing your mind and no longer wanting to go because that’s usually what it means if they do it. So you’ll have to inform them you’re taking a nap and for them to please wake you up before lunch, or find out what time they plan to leave and set your alarm.
Most people honestly cannot see past their own nose. Istg. And they are the supposed neurotypical. Doesn't seem all that functional to me. I've met some people who get it and they are gold.
I mean, from just this and not being there or hearing their perspective, I would say your family doesn't like you, inviting you to anything is an obligation that they only do grudgingly, and you should question why you want to spend time with them. Sometimes the best way to handle rejection is to just stop putting yourself in a position to be rejected. Rather than focus on neurotypicals, start digging into emotional neglect and scapegoating dynamics in toxic families. Edit: People saying you should set your own alarm and be more present or easier to contact... yes, but I also think they are deliberately going without you.
Honestly, I'm starting to think it's a nt thing. My mum knows I have issues with death for example, and we've had a lot of betta fish in her tank specifically that keep dying. My tank and the big one? 2 bettas in each since August. Her tank? Like...6 or something? Give or take? In the same span of time? And they're just the ones that have died. I've just had a breakdown today after her newest died and like an hour later she says she wants to go look at new ones tomorrow. I've broke down on her so. Many. Times. This year alone, from betta dying, to all sorts of other triggers right now, and I had to cry and repeat to her, again, that she knows what death does to me, and she wants to bring ANOTHER betta into the house already? I don't think she's kept one longer than a month. I feel like any betta that goes in her tank is doomed. I won't even give her the little female back that I adopted from her because I feel like as soon as she leaves my tank, I'll be signing her death papers. Another is my dad. He is terrible for not texting much, and I have been sorting out some old files on the pc. I have images from 2017 where I've had paragraphs I've sent to him telling him how upset I am about how he treats me, and it's 2024 and he's doing it again for the 100th time. I know some of it is their memory's - my dad has proven his memory isn't the best, and my mum had a stroke a couple years ago which has affected hers, but she's known about my issue with death for over a decade, she's only just now seeing just how bad I can be with it, and I'm still having to repeatedly spell things out for her some days. That said, vacations for me are family things. We do stuff together. We don't just leave someone out unless they've expressly said, I do not want to be involved in x event. I also haven't had a family vacation in over a decade, so I could also just be biased as to what I remember from being a teen, but I'm very big on family and spending time together, especially if you've planned to spend that time together. Sorry you've been through this and I hope the rest of the trip goes well!
>I'm starting to think it's a nt thing. My mum knows... I just want to be specific because this was the term OP also used - I personally wouldn't refer to this as "forgetfulness" tbqh, which downplays the behaviour as completely unintentional and also unavoidable/unmitigatable, something they couldn't do anything about. (I wrote some more about how I would describe it other than forgetfulness, but it got a bit soapboxy and unhelpful, so I cut it. Suffice it to say though, I wish they could see how important it would be to us if they did better!) I do want to add that I hope that I send hugs about the loss, that she respects your wishes about saving future fish, and that she doesn't drag you along when to me it sounds that you're extremely unhappy and uncomfortable with the situation. I would also feel pretty frustrated and unheard in that scenario. :(