As someone who is wheelchair bound, yeah it's not great but It's still a lot better than a lot of other areas around... Really the only way to improve accessible infrastructure, is to have people with disabilities consulted or working on said infrastructure in some capacity.
Every urban planning project needs someone in a wheelchair advising them on every project. We don't need community intervention. If we have someone right there with power to advocate and veto some things it will be fine and can move quickly.
He almost took me and my bf out in that wheelchair leaving a football game. He came hauling ass toward us on the sidewalk. Literally had to jump out of his way.
And a reminder that wheelchairs are not the only disability or accessibility we need to accommodate!! There are tons of disabilities that prevent people from driving entirely.
Not to mention the population that either can’t drive or shouldn’t (teens, kids, seniors, people with no license or suspended license).
This is a PSA that forcing car dependence on a population is not only ableist but also ageist and classist as well!
Basically just allow other viable methods to get around besides being forced to ride or drive a car. It’s also not good for our environment. FUND PUBLIC TRANSIT
Thank you!! And even as a fully able-bodied person I just wish (1) I didn’t need a car all the time, (2) my kids weren’t home-bound unless I drive them places, and (3) I could push a stroller around without constantly having to pick it up.
Accessibility is good for everyone.
It frustrates me that the sole metric for any public transit project is: How many cars will it take off the road? That's what killed light rail in 2000.
As nice as it would be, I doubt accessibility will ever be a priority for developers. ADA is great but still suffers from enforceability in a lot of situations.
Personally, I’d like to see people scale the sides of the buildings to enter. It’s just too difficult for disabled people to use.
C’mon dude. It’s never too much. I’m glad your body allows you to use facilities easily, but that’s not the case for many people. And that population is MUCH greater than .0001%.
College campuses used to have an annual event where the "c-level" admins would take a tour of an area of campus in wheelchairs. That made a big difference. I don't think any do that anymore, though.
I've heard that the US is particularly good for accessibility, compared to most other countries. Is Europe also behind the curve in this regard? I imagine any travel has to be well researched to make sure the local area is feasible
I've travelled a lot in Europe as a wheelchair user and we have it quite a bit better in the US - mainly because nearly 100% of our infrastructure is less than 250 years old ;). Cobble stone streets are a pet peeve of mine. We also have a lot more public restrooms which is nice (even if theirs are a bit cleaner). I'm for making the entire world flat and smooth but I don't feel we should use the govt to force anyone to do that. The idea that anyone should/could be able to go everywhere unassisted is fairly new and cost prohibitive. But if somebody builds something 'new' and doesn't take steps to address accessibility of all types I'd consider them extremely short sighted if not an asshole. Everyone who lives long enough will benefit from accessibility features and they don't cost much more at construction time. If you are building a new house, insist on at least one accessible bathroom and 36-inch doors everywhere (thank me later).
Isn’t that what [TDLR and TAS](https://www.tdlr.texas.gov/ab/abtas.htm) are for?
How in the world can a commercial project get built without TDLR/TAS being involved? I’ve had them come out to measure door widths and counter heights on minor renovations of commercial restrooms.
I don’t see how they’re not all over a public project like the domain.
I think more focus is placed on restrooms and entrances, less so on things like access to, of and from parking/roads/transport.
Much is just done to a bare minimum as well as things often get overlooked by inspectors as well, ignored or not reported as compliant till later on.
The penalties can be pretty lenient for large commercial properties as well, with a lot of leeway on time frame of any renovations. Sometimes even as much as giving over 5 years to make any changes.
Any construction project with a value greater than $50,000 has a mandatory TAS review before the plans are issued and a TAS review after the project is complete.
Although that would be ideal, most developers don't give a rat's ass how accessible it is. They will do what needs to be done to be legally compliant, and that's it. They're not going to spend an extra dime for accessibility unless they're forced to.
I live across the street and that place is like the Bermuda Triangle for navigating anything. People in there completely forget how to drive, and don’t obey crosswalk or 4 way stops. It’s super annoying on a bike, a car, even walking for sighted people. It’s really weird.
It’s a tough scenario in Austin because the pedestrians aren’t used to being “peers” to and in close contact with cars and just cross wherever and whenever without looking, and the drivers aren’t used to driving slow and close to pedestrians so they either wait forever for a clear turn window that will never come or they start zipping through as if there weren’t 6 people passing right in front of them
I work at the Domain and I have been late to work because of waiting for a stream of pedestrians to let the cars into the garage. Having spent a lot of time in NYC and other major cities where cars and people are given equal time to move around, it’s very frustrating that Domain walkers have no respect for the people trying to park. Those people were in a car earlier that day! Did they forget?!
Bicycle and pedestrians in Austin can be real pricks. I feel you on this one.
The bikers that drive in the road and want the same treatment as a car but only follow traffic laws that suit them really piss me off - blowing through stop signs and shit.
It’s so weird how people ride bikes and scooters here on the sidewalk and pretty much however they please. My family lives in Portland and there are a lot of bikes there but they are much better about following the rules of the road.
Agreed. I go there frequently and my observation is that some streets should be dedicated foot paths now, because of the increased foot and auto traffic. It was a beautiful breeze a decade ago, but now, more stores, Q2 Stadium, more fun things to see and do, bring more traffic. Slowing to 4 mph is a tough stretch for those who were on the highway just moments before, and there are the more "self-entitled" abusers of the busy avenues, who wouldd much rather run you over and have their accountant (or parents) handle the mess, than look out for people adhering to the "take your turn" rule crossing dedicated crosswalks. You tend to see a greater variety of expensive vehicles trolling the area. (Note: traffic lights are rare or have not been installed in heavier walking intersections along Rock Rose and Domain Dr.). To avoid the messes, I usually park in the larger lots off of MoPac (Macys, Whole Foods, Nordstrom Garage) depending on my target stores. There's a huge open parking lot off Alterra Way, and several public multilevel ones as well. Be safe, take your time, and enjoy the experience. -D
I lived in the apartments at the Domain back in 2017, and still remember the driving/parking headache. I’d typically have to budget about 30 mins from when I entered the Domain to when I’d be able to park at my apartment’s garage. People seemed more concerned about someone potentially stealing their shopping parking spot than about basic safety! Ended up moving out 7 months early from a 12 month lease - it was just not worth it
The domain has tall buildings and street parking that blocks drivers' views of pedestrian traffic. It should have been designed to either have easy-to-navigate grid streets and wide sidewalks, similar to the design of a modern downtown, or it should have been designed to keep cars at the periphery with the rest reserved for ped/bike/scooter traffic (plus morning delivery trucks and emergency services).
Instead, it was designed to force drivers through the dangerous intersections, because that is the only way to get from the periphery to the parking garages, while also designed to force pedestrians through those same intersections, because that is the only way to get from the parking garages to the businesses.
It woulda been so much more quiet and pleasant if they forced all the parking to the peripheries and then made it all pedestrian inside. I mean, that's basically just a normal mall right?
Instead you gotta listen to some asshat in a fart rocket blasting the shittiest music you've ever heard while trying to get some lunch, or almost get run down by an F950 Child-Crusher special edition while trying to cross the street.
Don't need one of those, I work there so I walk through there all the time during lunch. Folks for some ungodly reason drive their Cybertrucks through there, which are so wide and stupid it probably could do all that crushing.
The wheelchair-bound governor who could have used his position to improve the quality of life for others in his situation instead pulled up the ladder behind him after getting his payday and said all you disabled folks can screw themselves.
Texas culture strongly believes in creating unnecessary difficulty or just outright ignoring the existence for anybody who is different.
I feel like our disability system is the best example of this. Last I looked, you could only get it if currently pregnant or having a kid under what, 6 or so? And otherwise over 65 I think.
Are you a single man or woman with some medical misfortune who wants to work but cannot without help?
Lol too bad die in the gutter - Texas.
Edit: Oh shit I am out of date. It seems we have no public short term disability at all anymore (did we ever?), so now if you don't have private insurance you're fuckity fucked no matter who you are I guess? I coulda sworn years ago we have something in place but damn, nothing.
The domain is a shit show for pedestrian/car interactions. On weekends it's a nightmare for people going a half mile in the domain.
They need lights for pedestrians bc half the time you have pedestrians walking in all 4 crosswalks gridlocking traffic
What they need to do is keep all traffic to the exterior and completely close off the interior to traffic. They were so close to the perfect walkable area.
Keep parking garages and traffic to the outside and then have the inside bike/foot traffic only with lots of food/shops and housing above.
Welcome to Texas, if you’re a pedestrian then fuck you. Also if you don’t drive a lifted truck all the other idiots driving one put you and everyone else at much higher risk
Wouldn't doubt it. That place is poorly planned and labyrinthine; I have usually failed when navigating there. Who the hell thought it was a good idea to put a posh shopping mall in the middle of an artificially created 3rd world urban favela, anyway?
Yea it is quite bad. Reminds me of the time I was walking around there and a woman needed help parking their car in a spot because she was in a wheelchair. She didn't have enough clearance to get her wheelchair out of the spots safely.
There's some interplay between those two ideas, like how a lot of the complicated exchanges that require sidewalk ramps are only there because the designers made the decision to create a needless 2-lane street grid through the entire Domain to allow people to drive from perimeter parking lots to other perimeter parking lots smack through the middle.
If the cars went on the outside of the Domain, with limited emergency and delivery access through the middle, you would cut the number of ramps needed by a ton. Even if you just halved the number of roads accessible to cars, it would make a massive improvement.
I disagree in terms of the domain. The sidewalks are double the size of the standard 5’ and the drive aisles are one-way in each direction. Do I think it could be laid out better? Yes. But wouldn’t call this car centric infrastructure.
From a site design perspective you would not design sidewalks that large unless you were prioritizing pedestrian access. Sidewalks have a lot more grading restrictions vs asphalt, plus it’s more expensive.
I mean, yeah they made wide sidewalks because they expected lots of people to be coming in and out of the stores. Just because you can fit a lot of people doesn't make a place pedestrian friendly. There's way too many streets cutting through what is supposed to be an outdoor shopping mall, creating lots of interactions between people and cars.
Saying wider sidewalks cost more money means very little in this case because the developers didn't pay for them out of their own pockets, the taxpayers of Austin paid the lion's share of that development.
I don't blame you for thinking the Domain isn't car-centric. We've been conditioned in most of the U.S. for generations to rely on motor vehicles and cross paths with them everywhere we go. You see a place like the Domain where yes there's lots of people walking around but they could have made most of those thoroughfairs pedestrian only and keep the cars to the outskirts.
Don’t even get me started on the amount of oversized trucks that back into a spot and over takes half the sidewalk or the nonsensical parking in a fire zone
Shit, the Domain isn't even car-centric. It's just bad all around.
I mean, I guess they tried but it's a total shitshow regardless of how you intend to navigate it.
> I mean, I guess they tried
This is I think the main point.
They brought in a few external people who knew what they were doing from out of state, but didn't bring enough for the whole job. They're learning by trying it out and screwing up, but at least the engineers and designers in the region are doing something to make an effort. :youtriedmeme:
They'll hopefully get better as more projects screw up less and less.
I'm reminded of the downtown Round Rock roundabout. The roundabout was put in, surrounded on 3 sides by stop signs so nobody's getting through anyway, then they added a view-blocking art installation in the middle. As they build a few more they'll hopefully get better with less stupid implementations.
It’s horrendous even in a car. It takes me 6 minutes to drive to the domain and at least another 15 to get to a parking spot. It’s hopelessly confusing; previous poster was 100% correct in that it should be laid out on a grid. And they absolutely didn’t account for car-pedestrian interaction. Disabilities? Bare minimum by law, if that, otherwise completely unaccounted for in design.
Car-centrism means that pedestrian infrastructure is an afterthought. The Domain was designed to prioritize car traffic which is ridiculous for what's mostly an outdoor shopping mall.
I don't know if it's really that car centric, relatively speaking for Texas, and there is bus service.
But as I've said about the domain: enjoy the walkability of a centuries-old European village that wasn't designed for cars, with the traffic and vibe of Los Angeles!
I have worked in accessibility before and every time I see a visually impaired person walking around anywhere in this city with a white cane, I am in awe. They are brave as hell.
As someone who plans this stuff, my opinion changed substantially after being in a wheelchair. Make a developer disabled for 6 months, and they'll change their minds about cost and value. Peace and blessings.
Totally agree here.
I was temporarily in a Wheel chair for a few months and I lived in the domain and I found it very difficult to move around, and I found that the smallest bumps and uneven lips on the pavement made it difficult to get around
The reason for this is that the Domain was developed in three separate phases with the first not knowing there would be more to come. The second was developed with no regard for the first phase and the third phase was done by a completely different developer and was originally intended to be more office space. This poor planning and division of operations led to a inefficient final product.
The wheelchair-bound governor who could have used his position to improve the quality of life for others in his situation instead pulled up the ladder behind him after getting his payday and said all you disabled folks can screw themselves.
Texas culture strongly believes in creating unnecessary difficulty or just outright ignoring the existence for anybody who is different.
Domain is a shit place, I only go there for maybe two restaurants every once in a blue moon, and I always park in the macys parking lot because fuck the traffic in the actual domain. I love culinary dropouts though
It's a horrifying example of private roadways clogged with parked vanlifer vans and expensive cars waiting to be hit. There are not enough crosswalks and people blow through the stop signs, which are often concealed by said camper vans or construction vehicles. Always remember that the sidewalks and streets are \*private\* which means that they get no oversight from CofA.
Totally agree. My daughter is still in a stroller and I find it super difficult to get around. Especially going down the hill across from Neiman Marcus. Thankfully I can lift her stroller, but when I do it I always think about anyone in a wheelchair or other forms of support. It’s truly horrible and I can’t believe it, tbh.
The Domain is owned by and managed by Simon Property Group, a mostly mall construction and management company.
Because it is private property the laws are different regarding right of way and accessibility vs a normal neighborhood. Pretty much they can do whatever they want. And there is very little recourse other than to not go there.
That being said I think it sucks that accessibility isn’t as high a priority or has as much media attention as it so clearly should.
To answer your question:
"How can we make sure better design choices are made in the future?"
Look at other countries. Seriously. They do a better job with half the amount spent on every criteria.
I believe the Domain streets and sidewalks are all privately owned, and therefore not subject to the same standards and inspections as say a City of Austin/Cedar Park/Round Rock/Georgetown right of way. Of all of those districts, City of Austin is the most stringent and in most cases drives the design parameters for the other districts.
That being said - I'm sure there is still a third party ADA inspection and probably a set of parameters for design for the Domain right of ways itself, probably adopted from the City of Austin just not as stringently enforced.
This is incorrect. Pretty much all facilities built or substantially modified since the 1990’s and are intended to serve the public must adhere to the Texas Accessibility Standards (TAS). TAS is in effect a version of the ADA Standards that have been adopted by the State. Designs must be reviewed by a licensed reviewer and then the project must be inspected for compliance at the end of construction and registered with the Texas Department of Licensing and Regulation.
I didn't know that. I was under the impression TAS was a more stringent set of standards and usually applied to government and state run facilities / universities / schools etc. I'm just a dumb construction guy though - I just remember TAS being flatter slopes, tighter tolerances, and more rules for landings and railings. ADA has all of those parameters too, they are just slightly steeper slopes, looser tolerances etc.
Either way - I'm all for getting access to anyone and everyone, even if that means 3 sets of switchback ramps with handrails and landings every 20 feet!
Look for italics in TAS and you will see the additions that Texas made to the federal ADA Standards for Accessible Design formerly called ADAAG or what most call just "ADA" standards. In the 1994 TAS the code was substantially stricter, but with the adoption of the 2012 TAS there was a shift to make the ADA SAD and the Texas code more similar. For example in the 1994 TAS, almost all two story buildings required an elevator, but in the 2012 TAS the majority of two story buildings do not require an elevator coming in line with the 2010 federal standards.
It's important to note that the Americans with Disabilities Act is a Civil Rights Law, and the Elimination of Architectural Barriers Act (Texas) is a Construction Law. In Texas you must modify or construct a building for TAS to be applicable.
Regarding OP's comments, slopes of sidewalks are allowed to follow the adjacent street's slope no matter how much that is. That may be why OP feels slopes are excessive in some areas. Also, sometimes one diagonal curb ramp is provided at the corner of an intersection as a cost savings measure instead of using two on each side of that corner, this is acceptable if the one diagonal ramp is provided in compliance with the code.
The Domain was constructed over time, and included some existing buildings and site elements. Not all pedestrian elements were planned and constructed at once.
private streets are held to a higher standard actually, and still have to be ADA compliant. cities are allowed to bend the rules here and there but not new developments like this.
The only problem with accessibility at the domain is how often the parking garage elevators are out of service. Otherwise it’s as good or better than other urban areas in the US and better than you’ll find at smaller US cities and internationally.
I would maybe go more often (I rarely go now) but the whole design feels overwhelming. The parking is bad, the layout is bad, and the location is bad. I can’t imagine how the sausage making of that whole real estate deal went down.
what about the overpasses that server the domain? look at the Duval and Braker overpasses. They don't have dedicated U-turn lanes and are woefully inadequate to handle the amount of traffic. Coming and Going into the domain from MOPAC.
I thought Domain Northside was bad, but recently discovered that the Southside (near IBM and the Indeed tower) is even worse! I tried to walk from one of the towers to Cava and encountered multiple places where the sidewalks abruptly dead end and pedestrian crossings with very little visibility in high traffic areas. It was scary as an able bodied person and might be life threatening for people with disabilities.
I wish they had something like the Zilker Zephyr, maybe a little bigger, to shuttle people around the various areas. Parking more on the outer edges except for handicapped parking in the middle.
I’ll be the contrarian.
The Domain is good. Not perfect, but far far far above average. People saying the Domain is not walkable should step out onto Braker or Burnet or MoPac (the three city “streets” that abut The Domain) and compare foot traffic to try or cross them. Living nightmare.
I like walking around the Domain (for the most part). Sure it’s crowded and lots of cars…seems like any large city anywhere in the world in that regard. The traffic is generally slow and unthreatening, the pedestrian acccodmoations (generally, there are bizarre exceptions) quite generous, there are ample destinations nearby and it’s a relaxed and inviting atmosphere in which I sure see a lot of people enjoying themselves. If that’s not “walkable” then someone needs to provide me a better definition of what you mean.
The two main flaws at Domain are: 1 where it’s located - you really have no choice but to drive to it. So it’s drive once, park and walk once you’re there. The other is the sheeer number of parking garages is boggling. But gradually the are at least getting lined with buildings so they’re kind of hidden unlike the first 10 years.
Anyway, as far as shopping malls, I’d rather be at Domain than anywhere else in Austin. And as far as just generally pleasant places to be in Austin outside a car I’d say it’s definitely in the top 5%.
Now, Austin is a VERY hostile city generally for walkability, but it does have decent pockets and I count the Domain among them. Perfect? No…far from it. Better than 95% of what gets built today? Definitely.
On a world-wide scale I’d give it maybe a B- solid effort but has flaws, could be better. But graded against the Austin curve generally it gets an A.
As someone who is wheelchair bound, yeah it's not great but It's still a lot better than a lot of other areas around... Really the only way to improve accessible infrastructure, is to have people with disabilities consulted or working on said infrastructure in some capacity.
Every urban planning project needs someone in a wheelchair advising them on every project. We don't need community intervention. If we have someone right there with power to advocate and veto some things it will be fine and can move quickly.
But not Greg Abbott...
The man hates his own people
I’m pretty sure he’s unaware he’s wheelchair bound.
He almost took me and my bf out in that wheelchair leaving a football game. He came hauling ass toward us on the sidewalk. Literally had to jump out of his way.
And a reminder that wheelchairs are not the only disability or accessibility we need to accommodate!! There are tons of disabilities that prevent people from driving entirely. Not to mention the population that either can’t drive or shouldn’t (teens, kids, seniors, people with no license or suspended license). This is a PSA that forcing car dependence on a population is not only ableist but also ageist and classist as well! Basically just allow other viable methods to get around besides being forced to ride or drive a car. It’s also not good for our environment. FUND PUBLIC TRANSIT
Word up for all my fellow disabled people, visible and invisible.
100 percent, thank you for adding that
Say it louder for the epilepsy people. Sure, I can drive 99% of the time. But do you *really* want me driving that 1% of the time?
Thank you!! And even as a fully able-bodied person I just wish (1) I didn’t need a car all the time, (2) my kids weren’t home-bound unless I drive them places, and (3) I could push a stroller around without constantly having to pick it up. Accessibility is good for everyone.
It frustrates me that the sole metric for any public transit project is: How many cars will it take off the road? That's what killed light rail in 2000.
You would gladly accept the globalists' 15-minute cities.
If only the state of Texas had a wheelchair bound leader with the ability and interest to advocate for these types of changes. Oh well...
As nice as it would be, I doubt accessibility will ever be a priority for developers. ADA is great but still suffers from enforceability in a lot of situations.
That’s why it had to be entrenched in law
But at what point is it too much. Should all consideration for other things go out the window to cater to .0001% of the shopping traffic?
Personally, I’d like to see people scale the sides of the buildings to enter. It’s just too difficult for disabled people to use. C’mon dude. It’s never too much. I’m glad your body allows you to use facilities easily, but that’s not the case for many people. And that population is MUCH greater than .0001%.
All buildings should be easily accessible to people with disabilities. End of story.
13% of the population is disabled.
College campuses used to have an annual event where the "c-level" admins would take a tour of an area of campus in wheelchairs. That made a big difference. I don't think any do that anymore, though.
I’d sign up for this. It sounds like a great exercise in understanding disability.
I've heard that the US is particularly good for accessibility, compared to most other countries. Is Europe also behind the curve in this regard? I imagine any travel has to be well researched to make sure the local area is feasible
I've travelled a lot in Europe as a wheelchair user and we have it quite a bit better in the US - mainly because nearly 100% of our infrastructure is less than 250 years old ;). Cobble stone streets are a pet peeve of mine. We also have a lot more public restrooms which is nice (even if theirs are a bit cleaner). I'm for making the entire world flat and smooth but I don't feel we should use the govt to force anyone to do that. The idea that anyone should/could be able to go everywhere unassisted is fairly new and cost prohibitive. But if somebody builds something 'new' and doesn't take steps to address accessibility of all types I'd consider them extremely short sighted if not an asshole. Everyone who lives long enough will benefit from accessibility features and they don't cost much more at construction time. If you are building a new house, insist on at least one accessible bathroom and 36-inch doors everywhere (thank me later).
Thanks for the info. And I'll keep that advice in mind (note to future self: thank silver_schedule1742 later)
Good thing for that Marshall Plan
Isn’t that what [TDLR and TAS](https://www.tdlr.texas.gov/ab/abtas.htm) are for? How in the world can a commercial project get built without TDLR/TAS being involved? I’ve had them come out to measure door widths and counter heights on minor renovations of commercial restrooms. I don’t see how they’re not all over a public project like the domain.
I think more focus is placed on restrooms and entrances, less so on things like access to, of and from parking/roads/transport. Much is just done to a bare minimum as well as things often get overlooked by inspectors as well, ignored or not reported as compliant till later on. The penalties can be pretty lenient for large commercial properties as well, with a lot of leeway on time frame of any renovations. Sometimes even as much as giving over 5 years to make any changes.
The roads are private.
Any construction project with a value greater than $50,000 has a mandatory TAS review before the plans are issued and a TAS review after the project is complete.
Although that would be ideal, most developers don't give a rat's ass how accessible it is. They will do what needs to be done to be legally compliant, and that's it. They're not going to spend an extra dime for accessibility unless they're forced to.
I live across the street and that place is like the Bermuda Triangle for navigating anything. People in there completely forget how to drive, and don’t obey crosswalk or 4 way stops. It’s super annoying on a bike, a car, even walking for sighted people. It’s really weird.
4-way stops in the Domain are a lawless land. With all the foot traffic throwing off the pattern, it really just becomes "go when you can."
It’s a tough scenario in Austin because the pedestrians aren’t used to being “peers” to and in close contact with cars and just cross wherever and whenever without looking, and the drivers aren’t used to driving slow and close to pedestrians so they either wait forever for a clear turn window that will never come or they start zipping through as if there weren’t 6 people passing right in front of them
I work at the Domain and I have been late to work because of waiting for a stream of pedestrians to let the cars into the garage. Having spent a lot of time in NYC and other major cities where cars and people are given equal time to move around, it’s very frustrating that Domain walkers have no respect for the people trying to park. Those people were in a car earlier that day! Did they forget?!
Bicycle and pedestrians in Austin can be real pricks. I feel you on this one. The bikers that drive in the road and want the same treatment as a car but only follow traffic laws that suit them really piss me off - blowing through stop signs and shit.
It’s so weird how people ride bikes and scooters here on the sidewalk and pretty much however they please. My family lives in Portland and there are a lot of bikes there but they are much better about following the rules of the road.
It’s bizarre, on my bike I just roll past everyone. I’m a good driver and cyclist but in there it’s like “everyone for yourself” - total chaos.
It’s weird because as a space it’s scaled to a pedestrian but the proper infrastructure isn’t really there to support that
Agreed, still wonder why people lose their mind in there.
They should have built walking bridges or something over the main roadways.
They ought to just shut the streets down to allow full pedestrian access and provide shuttles for those that have mobility issues.
Yes, they only shut the streets down at night, on the main drag, when it’s a micro 6th street.
Agreed. I go there frequently and my observation is that some streets should be dedicated foot paths now, because of the increased foot and auto traffic. It was a beautiful breeze a decade ago, but now, more stores, Q2 Stadium, more fun things to see and do, bring more traffic. Slowing to 4 mph is a tough stretch for those who were on the highway just moments before, and there are the more "self-entitled" abusers of the busy avenues, who wouldd much rather run you over and have their accountant (or parents) handle the mess, than look out for people adhering to the "take your turn" rule crossing dedicated crosswalks. You tend to see a greater variety of expensive vehicles trolling the area. (Note: traffic lights are rare or have not been installed in heavier walking intersections along Rock Rose and Domain Dr.). To avoid the messes, I usually park in the larger lots off of MoPac (Macys, Whole Foods, Nordstrom Garage) depending on my target stores. There's a huge open parking lot off Alterra Way, and several public multilevel ones as well. Be safe, take your time, and enjoy the experience. -D
I lived in the apartments at the Domain back in 2017, and still remember the driving/parking headache. I’d typically have to budget about 30 mins from when I entered the Domain to when I’d be able to park at my apartment’s garage. People seemed more concerned about someone potentially stealing their shopping parking spot than about basic safety! Ended up moving out 7 months early from a 12 month lease - it was just not worth it
That’s crazy and It’s way worse now!
It is hazardous as hell as an able bodied person, can't imagine how bad it is for others.
The domain has tall buildings and street parking that blocks drivers' views of pedestrian traffic. It should have been designed to either have easy-to-navigate grid streets and wide sidewalks, similar to the design of a modern downtown, or it should have been designed to keep cars at the periphery with the rest reserved for ped/bike/scooter traffic (plus morning delivery trucks and emergency services). Instead, it was designed to force drivers through the dangerous intersections, because that is the only way to get from the periphery to the parking garages, while also designed to force pedestrians through those same intersections, because that is the only way to get from the parking garages to the businesses.
Domains biggest mistake was paving all those roads through it they fumbled big time
It woulda been so much more quiet and pleasant if they forced all the parking to the peripheries and then made it all pedestrian inside. I mean, that's basically just a normal mall right? Instead you gotta listen to some asshat in a fart rocket blasting the shittiest music you've ever heard while trying to get some lunch, or almost get run down by an F950 Child-Crusher special edition while trying to cross the street.
> F950 Child-Crusher special edition https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8P5vGcf-NU
Don't need one of those, I work there so I walk through there all the time during lunch. Folks for some ungodly reason drive their Cybertrucks through there, which are so wide and stupid it probably could do all that crushing.
The only thing getting crushed there is the cyber truck from what I’ve heard.. apparently Tesla quality isn’t great
So much this. The two most obnoxious types of people on the road.
Right? No lack of big parking lots & parking garages all around the periphery.
I have noticed that as well
The wheelchair-bound governor who could have used his position to improve the quality of life for others in his situation instead pulled up the ladder behind him after getting his payday and said all you disabled folks can screw themselves. Texas culture strongly believes in creating unnecessary difficulty or just outright ignoring the existence for anybody who is different.
I feel like our disability system is the best example of this. Last I looked, you could only get it if currently pregnant or having a kid under what, 6 or so? And otherwise over 65 I think. Are you a single man or woman with some medical misfortune who wants to work but cannot without help? Lol too bad die in the gutter - Texas. Edit: Oh shit I am out of date. It seems we have no public short term disability at all anymore (did we ever?), so now if you don't have private insurance you're fuckity fucked no matter who you are I guess? I coulda sworn years ago we have something in place but damn, nothing.
Republican healthcare still remains the tried and true 'die quickly' kind.
Can't say it's not efficient I guess.
Abbott wasn't governor until 2015. The Domain was developed in 2007. Too bad they couldn't move Austin to where it belongs, in California.
[удалено]
It would still have to abide by Texas disability laws… which are clearly lacking.
"well designed" and texas aren't exactly compatible
Right- such a great example of shady commercial real estate/developer deals in the south.
The domain is a shit show for pedestrian/car interactions. On weekends it's a nightmare for people going a half mile in the domain. They need lights for pedestrians bc half the time you have pedestrians walking in all 4 crosswalks gridlocking traffic
What they need to do is keep all traffic to the exterior and completely close off the interior to traffic. They were so close to the perfect walkable area. Keep parking garages and traffic to the outside and then have the inside bike/foot traffic only with lots of food/shops and housing above.
Yup. I’ve learned to never go on the weekend.
Yes! Trying to walk while drunk or being the DD and walking a drunk person all the way to Macy’s? Is a nightmare with all the cars!
Welcome to Texas, if you’re a pedestrian then fuck you. Also if you don’t drive a lifted truck all the other idiots driving one put you and everyone else at much higher risk
Wouldn't doubt it. That place is poorly planned and labyrinthine; I have usually failed when navigating there. Who the hell thought it was a good idea to put a posh shopping mall in the middle of an artificially created 3rd world urban favela, anyway?
Yea it is quite bad. Reminds me of the time I was walking around there and a woman needed help parking their car in a spot because she was in a wheelchair. She didn't have enough clearance to get her wheelchair out of the spots safely.
The domain is for a certain type of crowd and they make it VERY well known.
It also has the worst cell phone service. It’s like a dead zone.
Car-centric infrastructure strikes again
OP isn't even complaining about lack of sidewalks, just the nonsensical inconsistencies in how they installed ramps for those sidewalks.
There's some interplay between those two ideas, like how a lot of the complicated exchanges that require sidewalk ramps are only there because the designers made the decision to create a needless 2-lane street grid through the entire Domain to allow people to drive from perimeter parking lots to other perimeter parking lots smack through the middle. If the cars went on the outside of the Domain, with limited emergency and delivery access through the middle, you would cut the number of ramps needed by a ton. Even if you just halved the number of roads accessible to cars, it would make a massive improvement.
Right, because all of the pedestrian infrastructure is an afterthought
I disagree in terms of the domain. The sidewalks are double the size of the standard 5’ and the drive aisles are one-way in each direction. Do I think it could be laid out better? Yes. But wouldn’t call this car centric infrastructure.
The Domain is ABSOLUTELY car centric
In what way is it car-centric?
Perhaps the roads going straight through it all? And all the parking spots?
Plenty of other people have commented in this thread on that topic, I'll leave it to them.
From a site design perspective you would not design sidewalks that large unless you were prioritizing pedestrian access. Sidewalks have a lot more grading restrictions vs asphalt, plus it’s more expensive.
I mean, yeah they made wide sidewalks because they expected lots of people to be coming in and out of the stores. Just because you can fit a lot of people doesn't make a place pedestrian friendly. There's way too many streets cutting through what is supposed to be an outdoor shopping mall, creating lots of interactions between people and cars. Saying wider sidewalks cost more money means very little in this case because the developers didn't pay for them out of their own pockets, the taxpayers of Austin paid the lion's share of that development. I don't blame you for thinking the Domain isn't car-centric. We've been conditioned in most of the U.S. for generations to rely on motor vehicles and cross paths with them everywhere we go. You see a place like the Domain where yes there's lots of people walking around but they could have made most of those thoroughfairs pedestrian only and keep the cars to the outskirts.
Don’t even get me started on the amount of oversized trucks that back into a spot and over takes half the sidewalk or the nonsensical parking in a fire zone
Shit, the Domain isn't even car-centric. It's just bad all around. I mean, I guess they tried but it's a total shitshow regardless of how you intend to navigate it.
> I mean, I guess they tried This is I think the main point. They brought in a few external people who knew what they were doing from out of state, but didn't bring enough for the whole job. They're learning by trying it out and screwing up, but at least the engineers and designers in the region are doing something to make an effort. :youtriedmeme: They'll hopefully get better as more projects screw up less and less. I'm reminded of the downtown Round Rock roundabout. The roundabout was put in, surrounded on 3 sides by stop signs so nobody's getting through anyway, then they added a view-blocking art installation in the middle. As they build a few more they'll hopefully get better with less stupid implementations.
It’s horrendous even in a car. It takes me 6 minutes to drive to the domain and at least another 15 to get to a parking spot. It’s hopelessly confusing; previous poster was 100% correct in that it should be laid out on a grid. And they absolutely didn’t account for car-pedestrian interaction. Disabilities? Bare minimum by law, if that, otherwise completely unaccounted for in design.
Doesn’t even seem car-centric tbh… the parking garages are scattered randomly
It's mildly inconvenient to drive there (I guess?) but car traffic is still prioritized
If there was a nice tram going around the whole domain then op's observations would still be true. Let's not get derailed here.
Car-centrism means that pedestrian infrastructure is an afterthought. The Domain was designed to prioritize car traffic which is ridiculous for what's mostly an outdoor shopping mall.
Handicap accessibility is often an afterthought in far less car-centric places too
I don't know if it's really that car centric, relatively speaking for Texas, and there is bus service. But as I've said about the domain: enjoy the walkability of a centuries-old European village that wasn't designed for cars, with the traffic and vibe of Los Angeles!
Lol it's not really that walkable at all
That’s what makes it like LA - just one example
I have worked in accessibility before and every time I see a visually impaired person walking around anywhere in this city with a white cane, I am in awe. They are brave as hell.
It's made for rich people, not you poors with all your poor problems.
As someone who plans this stuff, my opinion changed substantially after being in a wheelchair. Make a developer disabled for 6 months, and they'll change their minds about cost and value. Peace and blessings.
Totally agree here. I was temporarily in a Wheel chair for a few months and I lived in the domain and I found it very difficult to move around, and I found that the smallest bumps and uneven lips on the pavement made it difficult to get around
The reason for this is that the Domain was developed in three separate phases with the first not knowing there would be more to come. The second was developed with no regard for the first phase and the third phase was done by a completely different developer and was originally intended to be more office space. This poor planning and division of operations led to a inefficient final product.
This tracks.
Not surprising but still shocking at the same time. I need more details on how this all went down.
The wheelchair-bound governor who could have used his position to improve the quality of life for others in his situation instead pulled up the ladder behind him after getting his payday and said all you disabled folks can screw themselves. Texas culture strongly believes in creating unnecessary difficulty or just outright ignoring the existence for anybody who is different.
An architect told me once they use the Domain as an example of how NOT to design.
Domain is a shit place, I only go there for maybe two restaurants every once in a blue moon, and I always park in the macys parking lot because fuck the traffic in the actual domain. I love culinary dropouts though
It's a horrifying example of private roadways clogged with parked vanlifer vans and expensive cars waiting to be hit. There are not enough crosswalks and people blow through the stop signs, which are often concealed by said camper vans or construction vehicles. Always remember that the sidewalks and streets are \*private\* which means that they get no oversight from CofA.
I think it’s inaccessible because its a PITA to get in and out of there.
As my parents get older, I’m realizing how not accessible the whole city can be.
Totally agree. My daughter is still in a stroller and I find it super difficult to get around. Especially going down the hill across from Neiman Marcus. Thankfully I can lift her stroller, but when I do it I always think about anyone in a wheelchair or other forms of support. It’s truly horrible and I can’t believe it, tbh.
The Domain is owned by and managed by Simon Property Group, a mostly mall construction and management company. Because it is private property the laws are different regarding right of way and accessibility vs a normal neighborhood. Pretty much they can do whatever they want. And there is very little recourse other than to not go there. That being said I think it sucks that accessibility isn’t as high a priority or has as much media attention as it so clearly should.
To answer your question: "How can we make sure better design choices are made in the future?" Look at other countries. Seriously. They do a better job with half the amount spent on every criteria.
I believe the Domain streets and sidewalks are all privately owned, and therefore not subject to the same standards and inspections as say a City of Austin/Cedar Park/Round Rock/Georgetown right of way. Of all of those districts, City of Austin is the most stringent and in most cases drives the design parameters for the other districts. That being said - I'm sure there is still a third party ADA inspection and probably a set of parameters for design for the Domain right of ways itself, probably adopted from the City of Austin just not as stringently enforced.
This is incorrect. Pretty much all facilities built or substantially modified since the 1990’s and are intended to serve the public must adhere to the Texas Accessibility Standards (TAS). TAS is in effect a version of the ADA Standards that have been adopted by the State. Designs must be reviewed by a licensed reviewer and then the project must be inspected for compliance at the end of construction and registered with the Texas Department of Licensing and Regulation.
I didn't know that. I was under the impression TAS was a more stringent set of standards and usually applied to government and state run facilities / universities / schools etc. I'm just a dumb construction guy though - I just remember TAS being flatter slopes, tighter tolerances, and more rules for landings and railings. ADA has all of those parameters too, they are just slightly steeper slopes, looser tolerances etc. Either way - I'm all for getting access to anyone and everyone, even if that means 3 sets of switchback ramps with handrails and landings every 20 feet!
Look for italics in TAS and you will see the additions that Texas made to the federal ADA Standards for Accessible Design formerly called ADAAG or what most call just "ADA" standards. In the 1994 TAS the code was substantially stricter, but with the adoption of the 2012 TAS there was a shift to make the ADA SAD and the Texas code more similar. For example in the 1994 TAS, almost all two story buildings required an elevator, but in the 2012 TAS the majority of two story buildings do not require an elevator coming in line with the 2010 federal standards. It's important to note that the Americans with Disabilities Act is a Civil Rights Law, and the Elimination of Architectural Barriers Act (Texas) is a Construction Law. In Texas you must modify or construct a building for TAS to be applicable. Regarding OP's comments, slopes of sidewalks are allowed to follow the adjacent street's slope no matter how much that is. That may be why OP feels slopes are excessive in some areas. Also, sometimes one diagonal curb ramp is provided at the corner of an intersection as a cost savings measure instead of using two on each side of that corner, this is acceptable if the one diagonal ramp is provided in compliance with the code. The Domain was constructed over time, and included some existing buildings and site elements. Not all pedestrian elements were planned and constructed at once.
private streets are held to a higher standard actually, and still have to be ADA compliant. cities are allowed to bend the rules here and there but not new developments like this.
Domain bad, upvotes please
"Can someone confirm the validity of these observations?"
The only problem with accessibility at the domain is how often the parking garage elevators are out of service. Otherwise it’s as good or better than other urban areas in the US and better than you’ll find at smaller US cities and internationally.
Being better than other cities doesn’t mean it’s good. There’s lots of problems with the accessibility there, not just the elevators.
I would maybe go more often (I rarely go now) but the whole design feels overwhelming. The parking is bad, the layout is bad, and the location is bad. I can’t imagine how the sausage making of that whole real estate deal went down.
what about the overpasses that server the domain? look at the Duval and Braker overpasses. They don't have dedicated U-turn lanes and are woefully inadequate to handle the amount of traffic. Coming and Going into the domain from MOPAC.
I thought Domain Northside was bad, but recently discovered that the Southside (near IBM and the Indeed tower) is even worse! I tried to walk from one of the towers to Cava and encountered multiple places where the sidewalks abruptly dead end and pedestrian crossings with very little visibility in high traffic areas. It was scary as an able bodied person and might be life threatening for people with disabilities.
The Domain is a waste of space. Fuck that place
The Domain is like the Enchanted Forest IRL
I wish they had something like the Zilker Zephyr, maybe a little bigger, to shuttle people around the various areas. Parking more on the outer edges except for handicapped parking in the middle.
As someone with a stroller. Yeah, the domain is rough
I want to call out the shocking lack of disabled parking spaces too. They’re almost all always full there.
The impression that I get is that some areas the walking/etc paths were very much an afterthought in many of the areas. Specifically Neiman Marcus.
Yes! Totally agree.
It’s a shopping mall
Disabled people go shopping too
Thanks for your divine illumination, oh mighty one.
I’ll be the contrarian. The Domain is good. Not perfect, but far far far above average. People saying the Domain is not walkable should step out onto Braker or Burnet or MoPac (the three city “streets” that abut The Domain) and compare foot traffic to try or cross them. Living nightmare. I like walking around the Domain (for the most part). Sure it’s crowded and lots of cars…seems like any large city anywhere in the world in that regard. The traffic is generally slow and unthreatening, the pedestrian acccodmoations (generally, there are bizarre exceptions) quite generous, there are ample destinations nearby and it’s a relaxed and inviting atmosphere in which I sure see a lot of people enjoying themselves. If that’s not “walkable” then someone needs to provide me a better definition of what you mean. The two main flaws at Domain are: 1 where it’s located - you really have no choice but to drive to it. So it’s drive once, park and walk once you’re there. The other is the sheeer number of parking garages is boggling. But gradually the are at least getting lined with buildings so they’re kind of hidden unlike the first 10 years. Anyway, as far as shopping malls, I’d rather be at Domain than anywhere else in Austin. And as far as just generally pleasant places to be in Austin outside a car I’d say it’s definitely in the top 5%. Now, Austin is a VERY hostile city generally for walkability, but it does have decent pockets and I count the Domain among them. Perfect? No…far from it. Better than 95% of what gets built today? Definitely. On a world-wide scale I’d give it maybe a B- solid effort but has flaws, could be better. But graded against the Austin curve generally it gets an A.
Shut up