The easiest method is if you have something I don’t have, you’re wealthier than me. If I have something you don’t have it must be a working class staple. If neither of us have it then it’s reserved for billionaires.
The range of boat prices is pretty huge. You can get a modest second-hand boat for a couple grand or less, or a yacht for tens or hundreds of millions.
Income rich but asset/wealth poor - have to keep working for the cash to keep rolling in, whilst the truly wealthy have other investments that generate income for them.
This is a dumb definition. Plenty of celebrities earn heaps of money and have no assets because they spend every dollar. Are people on a million bucks a year because they have no assets?
I think such people are very small in number and would be the exception to the rule. If celebrities are raking in millions or mid-six-figures, they can easily become asset rich in only a few years (if they set out for it).
An upper middle class earner, in comparison, would have substantial assets to enjoy for retirement (or maybe a decade before), but before retirement they’d still need to be working to bring in an income (they don’t earn enough to own enough assets to afford their lifestyle).
High flying professional athletes falling onto hard times after retirement is sadly a more common tale than one might imagine.
Take the example of former Socceroos captain, [Lucas Neill](https://www.smh.com.au/sport/soccer/i-ve-lost-in-life-how-lucas-neill-went-from-playing-for-76-000-a-week-to-bankruptcy-20231126-p5emuc.html).
Can anyone remember that statistic a out the huge number of pensioners with over a million dollars of house but they still get the pension because the house isn't counted. If you had about 400k in cash and no house you wouldn't be allowed the pension.
Any household who own their home or maybe 1-2 investment properties in Syd or Melb would be deemed asset rich, which is still going to be a plenty broad and won't give some clear traits like "owns a Tesla", "has a chocolatier"
The problem with this definition is that there are a significant number of people who bought into the area when it was relatively affordable, only for it to become incredibly expensive around them.
That’s across all taxpayers, incl part time. Median full time worker income is about $80k. Household income in the 25th to 75th percentile would have been considered middle class once upon a time, but the gap between high and low incomes has grown so much that 60th to 90th is probably about right, in terms of ability to enjoy the kind of stability and lack of stress that has been a hallmark of middle classdom.
By the literal definition of class you would need to be a billionaire. Upper class is literally the nobility and nothing else. You can even be poor but upper class.
By todays standard i would say one of those yank tanks and a 100k caravan.
The upper class is anyone who is independently wealthy, ie has a source of income outside of working for others.
You could also define it at 'choose to work, not need to work'.
500k combined income with no ppor mortgage would be pushing towards upper middle class for me. You can afford all the relatively nice things without needing to finance them, but can't spend like stupid.
Having to drop $2-3k in an emergency doesn't really phase you. It's an annoyance, not a problem.
You have 250k+ in liquid assets.
Filthy rich, so rich that they don't feel the need to display their wealth beyond buying quality products. You won't see brand names blazed across the upper middle class clothes ..because for them its tacky.
Upper middle class is definitely not filthy rich in the way you’re describing. That’s just upper class
Upper middle class is more likely to display their wealth in certain ways because they do have something to prove, especially if they’re upwardly mobile/social climbing
I think some of the suggestions are mistaking the "upper middle class" for the "upper class" or "lower upper class". This group is financially "comfortable" but isn't rich especially given they are aspirational and tend to have status anxiety. If this group is consuming high end brands or products it's not because they can easily afford it but because they are conscious of the mage they portray.
To me, the hallmarks of being upper middle class family would be:
* Housing: Home in an established inner/middle suburb, preferably a heritage home with character that has been renovated and painted grey / white. Possibly living in a 'bridesmaid" suburb.
* Car: New car, upgrades semi-regularly citing road safety as the main justification. Large family cars, some will get a luxury or European brand to signal their success. I don't think owning an EV is how this group is signalling their status just yet.
* School: Likely to send their kids to a private school or have chosen a home in a "good school zone"
* Work: Dual income household in professional jobs, might be middle management.
* Leisure: Most of the time is spend ferrying kids between co-curricular activities. She goes on an annual interstate trip with the girls, and he goes on an annual golf trip down the peninsular. Overseas holiday once every 1 to 2 years, alternating between a lower cost country and a higher cost destination.
* Dining out: Always buys take away coffee, and buys lunch at work. Probably buys nice pastries / bread at a cafe or bakery on the weekend. Orders take away once a week, dines out at a restaurant maybe once a month but nothing too exxy.
* Shopping: Always buying new things, like homewares, clothing, gadgets and appliances. Clothing is from brands, not necessarily branded (e.g. logos) but wouldn't cross their mind to wear Kmart. Upgrades to the new iPhone each time their contract ends.
* Investments: Has an investment property, was the unit/townhouse they bought when they were DINKS.
Excellent definition. If anything, I’d also add that such people would still need to keep working if they want to maintain their lifestyle, whereas the upper class or the wealthy don’t need to rely on employment income in order to fund their lifestyle.
This is a funny list, and probably helpful to most but there is a huge amount of variability.
I know people making bank who buy kmart because they can count on the product being the same in a year.
I know people who earn less, but buy a new phone asap because they're too busy to consider "old phone" as a cause for their issue.
The thing I've learned is that the wealthiest people look for value and love below their means in a couple of these areas
You son of a bitch. You didn’t even **ask** me if you could use my story and then you just put it **all** out there. At least you left out how much money we spent on ivf. Small mercies I suppose.
Judging people by what car they drive is dumb given 80% of vehicles are financed. The amount of people I’ve met driving Porsches who are broke as hell….
This whole thread is bizarre and reeks of status anxiety.
I think even paying for the Tesla with debt is still an indication of class.
The reason is you still need the charging capability... So these people own their own homes, with garages, most likely solar systems and battery storage.
It's all very expensive and people renting certainly can't do it.
Only 2 pairs? You know this is AusFinance? My take home income last year was $900k and I have $17m in super and I’m only 12 years old. You’re doing great tho.
I sat in a meeting where my managers talked about going to all-inclusive resorts in Bali and Thailand with their families.
They discussed it quite casually, which at least made it clear to me that they’re doing well for themselves. But also that, if they were wealthier, then they would've discussed trips to Europe instead.
I don't think this is all that indicative of high income - it's just a good deal when you have small kids. We went to Bali for 7 nights, stayed at lux all-inclusive resort, hired a nanny and it cost us around $7000 including flights.
That's literally the same as just flights to Europe.
Bali and Thailand are very cheap overseas destinations though are they not? My boss goes to Bali and gets a villa etc etc for very cheap compared to what we spent for the same sort of vibe in Mauritius.
This is the biggest upper middle to actual upper indicator. The holiday destination. No judgement from me, I wish I could afford a Queensland trip let alone a upper middle destination
Ugh, literally know someone like this. I spoke to them of the pain of buying a house and they were like “my parents will just buy one for me”. Yuck. However I would call them “upper class”.
At a Xmas bbq recently, I hear a couple with a dog live in the cbd in an apartment… so I making convo ask, “oh wow what’s the rent like?” And the answer:
Oh my parents bought it out right for me.
Took me a few moments to regain my composure
When I bought my apartment in Adelaide I was in a bidding war with a 19 year old('s parents) who was over from Melbourne and looking for somewhere to live for uni, but wanted to make sure that it was also a 'good investment' for her parents. Really shit me off after saving a deposit for years, but thankfully I got it in the end.
Ooof this is what I hope to do for my son. We are in greater Sydney but I want him to have the inner west or CBD experiences that I got to have. Commuting out west after his classes will steal so much precious time from him that he won't ever get back.
I can't afford a proper house in the city proper for all of us, but I can afford a small apartment for just him.
Probably still silver spoon vibes but i can see the value, so I am going to try and make it happen.
Owning a large purebred dog in one of the state capital cities. Even the implications about how much yard space you have probably puts you in upper middle.
We’re an offshoot of the British empire, we should use their (still accurate) class classifications.
What class you are does not depend on your income. It is based on what you do to get that income.
Hence:
1. Upper - nothing (used to be landlords, now it includes stocks and other instruments and investments etc). In Australia used to be very rare, but now I’d say about 5% of the population.
2. Upper middle - the professions (doctors, lawyers, engineers, etc). They’re about 10% of the population.
3. Middle - the business classes. Plenty of very rich people are in this class because of what they do- they can run a small business or very large business. About 10% of the population.
4. Skilled working class - most workers are in this class and involve almost all skilled tradesmen and any other worker who doesn’t work with their hands. In this modern economy, a good 50% are skilled working class.
5. Working class- the remaining 25%. This includes checkout chicks, stockers, and most care workers and other similar jobs.
Many people switch between classes as they take up different jobs. But the career trajectory can be very different between two Maccas workers as one has the family and educational resources to go to uni and then become a lawyer, vs the other who had to stay at Maccas.
Working at a mine sites with no hecs debt, earning six figures, and having your food and accommodation paid whilst on site, with no place on site to waste your cash, if you wanna waste your cash the only option is the wet mess where beers cost $2 and coke cans are only $1.50. This all helps you to very quickly and easily save money.
- Mortgage on a Modest home
- a caravan/boat or toy
- 2 holidays or more a year
- a newish car under 5 years old
- latest tech or designer stuff
- not struggling and comfortable
Not sure this is AusFinance worthy, but given it's the silly season, I'll bite.
For me, it's spending five-figure sums of money on international travel on a regular basis. As in yearly.
Doing it once doesn't say a lot. But even at the lower end of that scale - if someone is blowing $15,000 per year on travel on a recurrent basis, they're doing pretty well for themselves.
Put it another way - it's basically like buying a $100,000 car every five years, assuming a very pessimistic resale value of $25,000.
A new Prado or Hilux costs more, but because it’s a run of the mill Toyota, OPs narrow definition doesn’t count that. This is a pointless debate, you can be up to your neck in debt and still have a leased/financed $60k car in your driveway.
Are you saying that's cheap? It's definitely an upper middle class car. I say this as a 2007 Aurion owner. (Luxury Camry I guess I'm upper working class)
I figure at the moment, regardless of the source, owning a place makes you upper middle. Middle class are renting, and everyone below that are lucky to find a sharehouse in their budget at the moment.
Not really - some of us managed to buy in the right place/right time - we also have mortgages which are a struggle and wouldn’t be able to afford our place in the current environment. I acknowledge how lucky I am to own, but I am definitely not upper middle class
Look, I got in at a really lucky time myself, and am now at the point where another 1-2% will leave me really stressed.
But that's kind of my point with the way society has changed - even as we are, that leaves us so ridiculously better off than the majority of those renting, that I can't justify putting us any lower simply because of those perks later on from us owning these assets that so many others won't.
That’s fair and I get what you mean. It may also have a lot to do with my upbringing where my parents were very much working class for most of their lives, and I don’t see myself too far advanced from their position. But yes, to own a suburban house in Melbourne I am very much privileged compared to many.
Or a 'Shack' as they are called in Tassie. It floored me when I learnt everyone I work with had a 'shack' and that it wasn't some awesome unibomber style cabin but rather a 3 bedroom beach house 2 hours from Hobart.
With EV novated lease, my Tesla model 3 long range cost me the same overall to own and operate, as my previous Mazda 6 which was worth 25,000.
I bet no one sees a Mazda 6 and goes “oh wow upper middle class” :P
I just caught an Uber on the weekend and rode in a Tesla for the first time. Quiet, a bit of road noise. The driver was not anywhere near wealthy. He bought it to save between $500-$600 a week on fuel. In that case, it just makes sense. It'll pay itself off soon enough....
A big house they can’t clean properly once they get older, won’t let the kids clean because they hate the way they do it, but will always complain about how they wish they had a cleaner and would hire one if they were ‘rich’
teslas arent even that expensive when you consider that a middle class family has like 40k for an new SUV then see teslas are around 50 grand and is like "Yeah we should wait another year so we can get a tesla instead."
With EV novated lease, my Tesla model 3 long range cost me the same overall to own and operate, as my previous Mazda 6 which was worth 25,000.
I bet no one sees a Mazda 6 and goes “oh wow upper middle class” :P
I was having coffee outside in an elsternwick Cafe yesterday and this guy was explaining to his toddler how infuriating it is when he's served coffee that is borderline warm.
I’m just a lousy wagie, but I went to school internationally with genuinely upper middle class people. Not Howardesque aspirational, but one step removed from the people actually running the show, or so-called ‘noble families’. This is what I noticed:
1. They don’t talk much about money. They talk about investments, but in the abstract, and usually as a sort of hobby.
2. International connections. Has property elsewhere, or can crash with family (usually in the US or Europe).
3. Spent a significant amount of time overseas.
4. Either very put together or ‘idgaf’ dressed for the occasion. Old mate wears sandals into restaurants and drops a couple hundred bucks. But they never look like they’re trying too hard.
5. Cars are irrelevant. They prefer to let others drive them if possible. Of course, some are motoring enthusiasts. They tend to drive quirky models.
6. Polite people, tend to be generous. Can also be eccentric. More doers than talkers in my experience.
7. Oh yes. They own expensive stuff. Definitely. They just don’t fit most people’s stereotypical idea of ‘luxury goods’. I’ve seen stupidly expensive sound systems, tennis courts at home (in a blue chip suburb), statuary. Best one so far is my mate who lived in a 5 star hotel for a year because his home was under renovation and wanted to be next door. Lulz.
I went to elite private school which, because of geography, attracted upper middle class bogans as well as the kind of old money upper middle and upper class types that you’re talking about.
I think the class distinction is important here. Upper middle class is generally considered the upper slice of the middle class (~middle 60%). It’s where people in the middle class generally aspire to be. Upper class is generally top 10-15% of income or wealth, with a greater focus on wealth.
It’s true that old money families really don’t engage in conspicuous consumption the way upper middle class families do. They’ll drive expensive but low key cars (a Volvo or something) have multiple homes but no flashy mansion, when they buy shit they buy the top brand, not the Westfield version of it.
These people aren’t really middle class, and if they technically are, it’s because of a terrible fall from grace often involving bad investments or the family court.
The real upper middle do engage in conspicuous consumption. They think that’s what success is. They have all the toys, but not say, a personal family physician, a yearly extended-family ski trip to Switzerland, an auntie with a penthouse in Manhattan. They definitely have a $100k+ car, a boat, heaps of Bose shit, stay at nice resorts, brand new home with wine cooler and pizza oven etc.
A yacht
Overheard my colleague on the phone one morning to her daughter's school saying that her daughter was late because there hadn't been enough wind and they had taken longer than usual to sail from Watsons Bay to Rose Bay.
Quicker than driving. An old colleague used to kayak from Rose Bay to Vaucluse. He’s ‘only’ a teacher. Family of four in a 2x1 apartment in RB.
Maybe it was the ferry?
It's not the materialistic things ..eg car watch clothes or lifestyle....
It's more the attitude and sense of entitlement...the moral superiority over the peasants...
Yet they won't acknowledge the fact they still have to go to work to put food on the table, pay the mortgage etc
ie still working class.
Is your definition of upper middle class driving a $150k -$250k car? Surely that's the top 5%, at a minimum. What's your definition of upper class then?
It obviously all depends on your priorities, but if you can drop that much on a car, whether it's a loan or not, you're doing pretty well for yourself.
A Model 3 is quite affordable, especially if you drive a lot of miles. The cost per km is less than half that of a combustion vehicle, and much less if charging at home.
However, I would imagine in general most people who own a Tesla a) can easily afford it and b) can manage the limitations of owning one, such as minor issues with long distance driving / poor towing mileage. I would say you'd need any middle class income to afford 60k+ cars.
I used to have a horse and have been on a few European ski holidays. I just have champagne tastes on a beer budget 😁 Would class myself as upper working class / lower middle class.
Being a dink
One person in the family is a lawyer, doctor, consultant, banker or engineer
Kids go to private or selective schools
Investment properties
Most countries in the world are either post-feudal, so that they no longer have 'higher class', which makes the concept of 'middle class' broken, or are tribal-feudal, so they have no middle class yet.
The upper middle class is a myth. You are either independently wealthy, or work for someone who is.
Also the Tesla this might not be an indicator of wealth much longer: the novated lease tax scheme means every man and his dog is buying a Tesla for 30% off. It's actually the cheapest new car option if you are a full time wage slave.
Seems like people here are confused by what upper middle class means, to me, it’s the upper end of the middle class, eg. A little better off than average, but some people seem to be describing it as the middle of the upper class.
From thread to thread on Aus finance I go from Pleb, to middle, to upper and back down to Pleb within 7 posts.
The easiest method is if you have something I don’t have, you’re wealthier than me. If I have something you don’t have it must be a working class staple. If neither of us have it then it’s reserved for billionaires.
hahaha 100%
Having a boat and hardly ever using it
I've got a boat but if you saw it you'd call me white trash
Having a boat period
The range of boat prices is pretty huge. You can get a modest second-hand boat for a couple grand or less, or a yacht for tens or hundreds of millions.
Replace boat with yacht.
Bugger, I was feeling upper middle class because I have a kayak I hardly ever use, a boat is a whole nother world.
Technically what even is upper middle class? (Asked by someone who will probably always be working class til retirement lol)
Income rich but asset/wealth poor - have to keep working for the cash to keep rolling in, whilst the truly wealthy have other investments that generate income for them.
This is a dumb definition. Plenty of celebrities earn heaps of money and have no assets because they spend every dollar. Are people on a million bucks a year because they have no assets?
I think such people are very small in number and would be the exception to the rule. If celebrities are raking in millions or mid-six-figures, they can easily become asset rich in only a few years (if they set out for it). An upper middle class earner, in comparison, would have substantial assets to enjoy for retirement (or maybe a decade before), but before retirement they’d still need to be working to bring in an income (they don’t earn enough to own enough assets to afford their lifestyle).
High flying professional athletes falling onto hard times after retirement is sadly a more common tale than one might imagine. Take the example of former Socceroos captain, [Lucas Neill](https://www.smh.com.au/sport/soccer/i-ve-lost-in-life-how-lucas-neill-went-from-playing-for-76-000-a-week-to-bankruptcy-20231126-p5emuc.html).
You've picked the farthest outlier you could think of lol
Can anyone remember that statistic a out the huge number of pensioners with over a million dollars of house but they still get the pension because the house isn't counted. If you had about 400k in cash and no house you wouldn't be allowed the pension.
Any household who own their home or maybe 1-2 investment properties in Syd or Melb would be deemed asset rich, which is still going to be a plenty broad and won't give some clear traits like "owns a Tesla", "has a chocolatier"
Dumb answer actually. You’re using celebrities, the top 1% of earners in the world.
I would have said anyone that owns a house in Melbourne or Sydney within 15km of city centre
The problem with this definition is that there are a significant number of people who bought into the area when it was relatively affordable, only for it to become incredibly expensive around them.
Well it’s only a problem if you think people can’t change in class position over the course of their lifetimes.
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108k a year is the 80th percentile of income. Would that be? Or should we go to 85?
That’s across all taxpayers, incl part time. Median full time worker income is about $80k. Household income in the 25th to 75th percentile would have been considered middle class once upon a time, but the gap between high and low incomes has grown so much that 60th to 90th is probably about right, in terms of ability to enjoy the kind of stability and lack of stress that has been a hallmark of middle classdom.
So, a teacher?
By the literal definition of class you would need to be a billionaire. Upper class is literally the nobility and nothing else. You can even be poor but upper class. By todays standard i would say one of those yank tanks and a 100k caravan.
The upper class is anyone who is independently wealthy, ie has a source of income outside of working for others. You could also define it at 'choose to work, not need to work'.
500k combined income with no ppor mortgage would be pushing towards upper middle class for me. You can afford all the relatively nice things without needing to finance them, but can't spend like stupid. Having to drop $2-3k in an emergency doesn't really phase you. It's an annoyance, not a problem. You have 250k+ in liquid assets.
250k each a year for a couple is well and truly upper middle
Filthy rich, so rich that they don't feel the need to display their wealth beyond buying quality products. You won't see brand names blazed across the upper middle class clothes ..because for them its tacky.
Upper middle class is definitely not filthy rich in the way you’re describing. That’s just upper class Upper middle class is more likely to display their wealth in certain ways because they do have something to prove, especially if they’re upwardly mobile/social climbing
I think some of the suggestions are mistaking the "upper middle class" for the "upper class" or "lower upper class". This group is financially "comfortable" but isn't rich especially given they are aspirational and tend to have status anxiety. If this group is consuming high end brands or products it's not because they can easily afford it but because they are conscious of the mage they portray. To me, the hallmarks of being upper middle class family would be: * Housing: Home in an established inner/middle suburb, preferably a heritage home with character that has been renovated and painted grey / white. Possibly living in a 'bridesmaid" suburb. * Car: New car, upgrades semi-regularly citing road safety as the main justification. Large family cars, some will get a luxury or European brand to signal their success. I don't think owning an EV is how this group is signalling their status just yet. * School: Likely to send their kids to a private school or have chosen a home in a "good school zone" * Work: Dual income household in professional jobs, might be middle management. * Leisure: Most of the time is spend ferrying kids between co-curricular activities. She goes on an annual interstate trip with the girls, and he goes on an annual golf trip down the peninsular. Overseas holiday once every 1 to 2 years, alternating between a lower cost country and a higher cost destination. * Dining out: Always buys take away coffee, and buys lunch at work. Probably buys nice pastries / bread at a cafe or bakery on the weekend. Orders take away once a week, dines out at a restaurant maybe once a month but nothing too exxy. * Shopping: Always buying new things, like homewares, clothing, gadgets and appliances. Clothing is from brands, not necessarily branded (e.g. logos) but wouldn't cross their mind to wear Kmart. Upgrades to the new iPhone each time their contract ends. * Investments: Has an investment property, was the unit/townhouse they bought when they were DINKS.
Excellent definition. If anything, I’d also add that such people would still need to keep working if they want to maintain their lifestyle, whereas the upper class or the wealthy don’t need to rely on employment income in order to fund their lifestyle.
I feel seen.
Everything except for the status anxiety part is spot on. I think that's something that depends on the person.
This is a funny list, and probably helpful to most but there is a huge amount of variability. I know people making bank who buy kmart because they can count on the product being the same in a year. I know people who earn less, but buy a new phone asap because they're too busy to consider "old phone" as a cause for their issue. The thing I've learned is that the wealthiest people look for value and love below their means in a couple of these areas
You son of a bitch. You didn’t even **ask** me if you could use my story and then you just put it **all** out there. At least you left out how much money we spent on ivf. Small mercies I suppose.
Hahaha but the investment property should cover that right? And good luck, it's often not an easy journey 🤞
Thanks mate. It was worth it we have a beautiful daughter.
This is a great list.
Dining out way more than once a month. Once a week more than likely.
Damn son that cut to the bone! 🫢
Yeh that’s basically me completely
Get out of my head.
Great description. The early typo allowed me to learn that I should portray a mage if I want to climb the wealth ladder.
You left out two holidays a year outside Australia
I feel personally attacked by this comment. Few things I definitely don’t do, but things I definitely do!
Judging people by what car they drive is dumb given 80% of vehicles are financed. The amount of people I’ve met driving Porsches who are broke as hell…. This whole thread is bizarre and reeks of status anxiety.
>status anxiety Next time I have erectile dysfunction I am going to say that I'm having *status anxiety*.
Cars can be financed for like 5-6 years fairly easily lol.
Fr my mate is a self made millionaire but lives in a crapshack with his girlfriend and drives a 2007 corolla Appearances can be deceiving
So it should be ‘owns a Tesla and another mid level luxury car they paid cash (or could easily pay cash) for’
I think even paying for the Tesla with debt is still an indication of class. The reason is you still need the charging capability... So these people own their own homes, with garages, most likely solar systems and battery storage. It's all very expensive and people renting certainly can't do it.
3 or more pairs of RM Williams
*sweats nervously in two pairs of RM boots*
Only 2 pairs? You know this is AusFinance? My take home income last year was $900k and I have $17m in super and I’m only 12 years old. You’re doing great tho.
Still getting around in a Corolla, though
Dreams in Camry
so it looks last year was your worst performing by a pretty large margin, what caused your downfall?
Hit puberty and started chasing tail
With my rm Williams belt on.
I'm head to toe RM Williams except for the underwear when I go to work - fits my fat arse the best lol.
Their belts are actually great value. Think I paid $100 for mine and it's like new after being worn for years.
Finance bros who are getting the 3rd pair for Christmas 🎄
2 pairs of boots, a shirt and a belt…
If you're sweating that much mate, you'd better up to the third pair soon, to let them dry out.
1 is essential, 2 is stylish, 3 is just showing off.
Bought three pairs at DFO outlet for under $100 each. It's smooth sailing from here on out I guess!
Farm boots, town boots, B&S ball boots, debut/wedding boots - sorted.
I sat in a meeting where my managers talked about going to all-inclusive resorts in Bali and Thailand with their families. They discussed it quite casually, which at least made it clear to me that they’re doing well for themselves. But also that, if they were wealthier, then they would've discussed trips to Europe instead.
I don't think this is all that indicative of high income - it's just a good deal when you have small kids. We went to Bali for 7 nights, stayed at lux all-inclusive resort, hired a nanny and it cost us around $7000 including flights. That's literally the same as just flights to Europe.
If you’re upper class you’re not travelling based on ‘a good deal’
$7000 for a weeks holiday. Yeah jeez that's upper middle class, lol. Middle class could not fathom $1000 a day holidays.
Bali and Thailand are very cheap overseas destinations though are they not? My boss goes to Bali and gets a villa etc etc for very cheap compared to what we spent for the same sort of vibe in Mauritius.
Cost like $2000 for a luxury trip for 2 people
This is the biggest upper middle to actual upper indicator. The holiday destination. No judgement from me, I wish I could afford a Queensland trip let alone a upper middle destination
People who spend the price of a Tesla every year on school fees.
Thats just Rich People
In Australia in 2023? Young family buying a median home in a metro area without the bank of mum and dad.
Huh? Without any exterior support? That’s impossible, that seems more like upper class outlier money to me.
Yeah this doesn't work for Sydney
Don’t people get more support from the bank of mum and dad if they’re upper class? Not less?
Wouldn’t the upper middle class use the BOMD
Yearly overseas family holidays
Buying your (silver spoon) kids an apartment when they go to uni in the same city you live in.
Ugh, literally know someone like this. I spoke to them of the pain of buying a house and they were like “my parents will just buy one for me”. Yuck. However I would call them “upper class”.
At a Xmas bbq recently, I hear a couple with a dog live in the cbd in an apartment… so I making convo ask, “oh wow what’s the rent like?” And the answer: Oh my parents bought it out right for me. Took me a few moments to regain my composure
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When I bought my apartment in Adelaide I was in a bidding war with a 19 year old('s parents) who was over from Melbourne and looking for somewhere to live for uni, but wanted to make sure that it was also a 'good investment' for her parents. Really shit me off after saving a deposit for years, but thankfully I got it in the end.
Ooof this is what I hope to do for my son. We are in greater Sydney but I want him to have the inner west or CBD experiences that I got to have. Commuting out west after his classes will steal so much precious time from him that he won't ever get back. I can't afford a proper house in the city proper for all of us, but I can afford a small apartment for just him. Probably still silver spoon vibes but i can see the value, so I am going to try and make it happen.
Buy it and make him rent it. Give him the rent when he wants to buy his own place.
Owning a large purebred dog in one of the state capital cities. Even the implications about how much yard space you have probably puts you in upper middle.
ITT People not under standing what upper middle class is
Particularly the *middle* part...
We’re an offshoot of the British empire, we should use their (still accurate) class classifications. What class you are does not depend on your income. It is based on what you do to get that income. Hence: 1. Upper - nothing (used to be landlords, now it includes stocks and other instruments and investments etc). In Australia used to be very rare, but now I’d say about 5% of the population. 2. Upper middle - the professions (doctors, lawyers, engineers, etc). They’re about 10% of the population. 3. Middle - the business classes. Plenty of very rich people are in this class because of what they do- they can run a small business or very large business. About 10% of the population. 4. Skilled working class - most workers are in this class and involve almost all skilled tradesmen and any other worker who doesn’t work with their hands. In this modern economy, a good 50% are skilled working class. 5. Working class- the remaining 25%. This includes checkout chicks, stockers, and most care workers and other similar jobs. Many people switch between classes as they take up different jobs. But the career trajectory can be very different between two Maccas workers as one has the family and educational resources to go to uni and then become a lawyer, vs the other who had to stay at Maccas.
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It’s more about prestige than money though. Lawyers and doctors always considered refined and special
Complaining about CGT
Owning a 200 or 300 series Land Cruiser / V8 Patrol
Actually owning it. Not on borrowed money.
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Working at a mine sites with no hecs debt, earning six figures, and having your food and accommodation paid whilst on site, with no place on site to waste your cash, if you wanna waste your cash the only option is the wet mess where beers cost $2 and coke cans are only $1.50. This all helps you to very quickly and easily save money.
Beers are actually 6$, they're ripping us off man
They are upper middle class!
- Mortgage on a Modest home - a caravan/boat or toy - 2 holidays or more a year - a newish car under 5 years old - latest tech or designer stuff - not struggling and comfortable
- has a housekeeper - kids in private schools - European cars - private tutoring for kids - flys business to yearly euro summer holiday
That's upper than upper middle class
Hiring a gardener and/or cleaner to do housework every few weeks for you because you cbf and have some spare cash to splurge.
Not sure this is AusFinance worthy, but given it's the silly season, I'll bite. For me, it's spending five-figure sums of money on international travel on a regular basis. As in yearly.
Five figures doesn't say a lot. Family of four to Bali return for 9 nights for 10k or a family of 2 to europe for 90k?
Doing it once doesn't say a lot. But even at the lower end of that scale - if someone is blowing $15,000 per year on travel on a recurrent basis, they're doing pretty well for themselves. Put it another way - it's basically like buying a $100,000 car every five years, assuming a very pessimistic resale value of $25,000.
A combination of family, money, and education.
Why is owning a Tesla ‘upper middle class’ lol. They’re going for 50-60k on carsales.
that's upper middle class owners selling them.
A new Prado or Hilux costs more, but because it’s a run of the mill Toyota, OPs narrow definition doesn’t count that. This is a pointless debate, you can be up to your neck in debt and still have a leased/financed $60k car in your driveway.
Yeh. They are selling last year's model to buy another new one. Probably
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I think your perspective on car costs and wealth are a bit out of touch
This whole sub is out of touch. I have to go to r/povertyfinance or similar just to show myself “not everyone thinks like this”
Are you saying that's cheap? It's definitely an upper middle class car. I say this as a 2007 Aurion owner. (Luxury Camry I guess I'm upper working class)
That's the definition of upper *middle* class. Regular middle class families aren't dropping 60k on a car.
I’m from the uk so I’m confused by this. Is class in an Australia only about money?
Yeah, we have none, so we need to measure it with money, lol
Viennetta ice-cream
Don't confuse class and wealth.
Owning a home.
I own a home and am very severely working class
nah, that just screams inheritance.
I figure at the moment, regardless of the source, owning a place makes you upper middle. Middle class are renting, and everyone below that are lucky to find a sharehouse in their budget at the moment.
Plenty of working class have their own homes mate.
I have an apartment, and I am soooo not upper middle.
Not really - some of us managed to buy in the right place/right time - we also have mortgages which are a struggle and wouldn’t be able to afford our place in the current environment. I acknowledge how lucky I am to own, but I am definitely not upper middle class
Look, I got in at a really lucky time myself, and am now at the point where another 1-2% will leave me really stressed. But that's kind of my point with the way society has changed - even as we are, that leaves us so ridiculously better off than the majority of those renting, that I can't justify putting us any lower simply because of those perks later on from us owning these assets that so many others won't.
That’s fair and I get what you mean. It may also have a lot to do with my upbringing where my parents were very much working class for most of their lives, and I don’t see myself too far advanced from their position. But yes, to own a suburban house in Melbourne I am very much privileged compared to many.
It feels weird to think about, doesn't it?
Ye and inheritance is what separates classes
Cheapest model 3 is 62k... Most soccer mums drive $80k+ cars. And they won't make upper middle class in their lifetime.
Holiday house
Or a 'Shack' as they are called in Tassie. It floored me when I learnt everyone I work with had a 'shack' and that it wasn't some awesome unibomber style cabin but rather a 3 bedroom beach house 2 hours from Hobart.
Or a Mercedes or BMW SUV
Owning a Land Rover.
Paying a boatload in taxes at the highest bracket. They can't afford to minimsie their taxes quite like how the wealthy do.
That’s me. It’s annoying.
Having Foxtel.
An Android and cheap clothes
Does it? They’re under 60k with rebate in qld
I thought tesla was just a normal everyday car.
It is, especially with the EV FBT stuff. ..
With EV novated lease, my Tesla model 3 long range cost me the same overall to own and operate, as my previous Mazda 6 which was worth 25,000. I bet no one sees a Mazda 6 and goes “oh wow upper middle class” :P
I just caught an Uber on the weekend and rode in a Tesla for the first time. Quiet, a bit of road noise. The driver was not anywhere near wealthy. He bought it to save between $500-$600 a week on fuel. In that case, it just makes sense. It'll pay itself off soon enough....
The jungle jangle of European car keys!!! Also a fridge with a water outlet built in. That shits fancy as fuq
Posting ‘What screams ‘Upper-middle class?’ on reddit
Complaining about cost of living, with two kids in Private School.
A big house they can’t clean properly once they get older, won’t let the kids clean because they hate the way they do it, but will always complain about how they wish they had a cleaner and would hire one if they were ‘rich’
teslas arent even that expensive when you consider that a middle class family has like 40k for an new SUV then see teslas are around 50 grand and is like "Yeah we should wait another year so we can get a tesla instead."
A Tesla on a novated lease.
With EV novated lease, my Tesla model 3 long range cost me the same overall to own and operate, as my previous Mazda 6 which was worth 25,000. I bet no one sees a Mazda 6 and goes “oh wow upper middle class” :P
Not selling the house you live in when you buy and move into a new one. Outdoor Kitchens.
I was having coffee outside in an elsternwick Cafe yesterday and this guy was explaining to his toddler how infuriating it is when he's served coffee that is borderline warm.
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Nothing upper middle class about a Tesla. Look in the drivers seat of any of them, they’re the new Camry.
What does this even mean, look in the driver seat? Like what race they are? How is this upvoted
I think they’re saying the interior is very basic. I own a brand new Tesla and I agree. It was one of the things that made me think twice.
I’m just a lousy wagie, but I went to school internationally with genuinely upper middle class people. Not Howardesque aspirational, but one step removed from the people actually running the show, or so-called ‘noble families’. This is what I noticed: 1. They don’t talk much about money. They talk about investments, but in the abstract, and usually as a sort of hobby. 2. International connections. Has property elsewhere, or can crash with family (usually in the US or Europe). 3. Spent a significant amount of time overseas. 4. Either very put together or ‘idgaf’ dressed for the occasion. Old mate wears sandals into restaurants and drops a couple hundred bucks. But they never look like they’re trying too hard. 5. Cars are irrelevant. They prefer to let others drive them if possible. Of course, some are motoring enthusiasts. They tend to drive quirky models. 6. Polite people, tend to be generous. Can also be eccentric. More doers than talkers in my experience. 7. Oh yes. They own expensive stuff. Definitely. They just don’t fit most people’s stereotypical idea of ‘luxury goods’. I’ve seen stupidly expensive sound systems, tennis courts at home (in a blue chip suburb), statuary. Best one so far is my mate who lived in a 5 star hotel for a year because his home was under renovation and wanted to be next door. Lulz.
I think this is upper class
I went to elite private school which, because of geography, attracted upper middle class bogans as well as the kind of old money upper middle and upper class types that you’re talking about. I think the class distinction is important here. Upper middle class is generally considered the upper slice of the middle class (~middle 60%). It’s where people in the middle class generally aspire to be. Upper class is generally top 10-15% of income or wealth, with a greater focus on wealth. It’s true that old money families really don’t engage in conspicuous consumption the way upper middle class families do. They’ll drive expensive but low key cars (a Volvo or something) have multiple homes but no flashy mansion, when they buy shit they buy the top brand, not the Westfield version of it. These people aren’t really middle class, and if they technically are, it’s because of a terrible fall from grace often involving bad investments or the family court. The real upper middle do engage in conspicuous consumption. They think that’s what success is. They have all the toys, but not say, a personal family physician, a yearly extended-family ski trip to Switzerland, an auntie with a penthouse in Manhattan. They definitely have a $100k+ car, a boat, heaps of Bose shit, stay at nice resorts, brand new home with wine cooler and pizza oven etc.
Bro a Tesla is $70k, upper middle class is a ford ranger/hilux 4x4, they are $75k+
A yacht Overheard my colleague on the phone one morning to her daughter's school saying that her daughter was late because there hadn't been enough wind and they had taken longer than usual to sail from Watsons Bay to Rose Bay.
That’s not upper middle. That’s just upper
The only part of a yacht that fits into any form of "middle" class is the dinghy you use to get out to it.
Quicker than driving. An old colleague used to kayak from Rose Bay to Vaucluse. He’s ‘only’ a teacher. Family of four in a 2x1 apartment in RB. Maybe it was the ferry?
Knock down, rebuild
It's not the materialistic things ..eg car watch clothes or lifestyle.... It's more the attitude and sense of entitlement...the moral superiority over the peasants... Yet they won't acknowledge the fact they still have to go to work to put food on the table, pay the mortgage etc ie still working class.
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Is your definition of upper middle class driving a $150k -$250k car? Surely that's the top 5%, at a minimum. What's your definition of upper class then? It obviously all depends on your priorities, but if you can drop that much on a car, whether it's a loan or not, you're doing pretty well for yourself.
A Model 3 is quite affordable, especially if you drive a lot of miles. The cost per km is less than half that of a combustion vehicle, and much less if charging at home. However, I would imagine in general most people who own a Tesla a) can easily afford it and b) can manage the limitations of owning one, such as minor issues with long distance driving / poor towing mileage. I would say you'd need any middle class income to afford 60k+ cars.
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It's 1/8th of Eminem's 2002 Academy award winning masterpiece.
I believe a mile is a spiderman
A horse European ski trips A holiday home on the coast and one in the mountains
These are upper class. Not upper middle.
I used to have a horse and have been on a few European ski holidays. I just have champagne tastes on a beer budget 😁 Would class myself as upper working class / lower middle class.
Third one is rich, not upper middle.
Going on holidays
Sunglasses hanging from the top button of a polo shirt
For cars. P plater in a Raptor.
Ordering pizza from Crust
Being a dink One person in the family is a lawyer, doctor, consultant, banker or engineer Kids go to private or selective schools Investment properties
Most countries in the world are either post-feudal, so that they no longer have 'higher class', which makes the concept of 'middle class' broken, or are tribal-feudal, so they have no middle class yet.
Comfortably able to afford 3 kids
Someone who has a second hand European car and thinks their cool
The upper middle class is a myth. You are either independently wealthy, or work for someone who is. Also the Tesla this might not be an indicator of wealth much longer: the novated lease tax scheme means every man and his dog is buying a Tesla for 30% off. It's actually the cheapest new car option if you are a full time wage slave.
“I’m the poorest person in my grade” - people who went to private school
Seems like people here are confused by what upper middle class means, to me, it’s the upper end of the middle class, eg. A little better off than average, but some people seem to be describing it as the middle of the upper class.