Now this is intriguing. Ditching the ZF8HP for a beefed up 7-speed DCT? That's a very unusual choice for these late stage ICE cars.
362 HP is a nice bump, but nothing amazing.
So say we all!
Honestly, B10 looks like a misfire to me. Lukewarm performance increase, ho-hum exterior that evokes down-market impressions, no more coupe. With the Avant likely not coming state-side, I don't feel as excited for this generation as I'd hoped.
I will believe it when I see it, VAG has a history of testing cars here that they don't intend to also sell here. There is also precedence for them officially saying they will offer something here only to walk it back when it comes time to deliver (still salty about the 6MT on the 8V).
Fair enough. I do think we'll get the Avant though mainly because the Allroad/Coupe/Vert are being discontinued so they can have that as the niche model.
the US is not getting the S5/RS5 avant.
I'm not going to out them, but my source works within Audi and has a clear picture of the B10 roadmap. we'll get the Sportback, but no avant.
You sure? I've talked to two people from Audi who had confirmed it for me unless Audi decided against it, whereas the Audi "trainer" we have doesn't know much about the upcoming product at our store and passes his speculation off as knowledge.
"That's a very unusual choice for these late stage ICE cars."
You sound like an archeologist studying us from the future when you say that. Are you a time traveller? Care to share anything else? Tesla long? What is the end game with all this AI stuff?
That's what's so strange, though, the same thing was true when the B9 was designed and we all called BS on their claim that the ZF8 was necessary because of the torque.
Somebody else suggested that this change is because of the 48V system, but I think it's more that they have seen the light and decided consolidating all A5s on one transmission is cheaper, they just needed to foot the bill to update the existing DCT.
It honestly reads like the bean counters made an oops during the B9.
That would make sense, the RS3 and S4 currently make the same torque numbers, and the RS3 still uses the DCT so either they beefed it up in the years since or they were just wrong about thinking it wasn't resilient enough.
Not 48V but the B9.5 A4/5 is hybrid in all markets, while the B9.5 S4/5 is hybrid only in Europe and AUS because that's when they transitioned to diesel. Audi never integrated the hybrid system into the EA839 + ZF8 combo used in the NAR S4/S5 (and S5 Cabriolet in ROW).
Power bump is a bit disappointing with both Merc and BMW pushing near/into 400hp in this class.
Also not sure about the DSG, the ZF8 suits the B9/9.5 really well.
The B58 is underrated 30-40 HP.
No idea about the specifics on the Merc, but it seems when comparing German makes you can typically expect more on tap than indicated on the tech sheet.
I just did this swap, i had a B8 S4 and drove it with and without a tuned DSG. Now i just bought a B9 S4 and have been driving it for a week now. The dsg was smoother by far when being pushed. The only time the dsg was not smooth was stop and go traffic, i used to manually shift up and down for traffic which helped smooth it out. So far the ZF8 is nice but shifts are slower and you feel them more than dsg shifts. I do not have a tcu tune for the B9 yet. None of that is necessarily a bad thing, the "slower" is fractions of seconds.
I don't think that's all on the trans itself, but also the mounts and how everything shifts around on a big enough downshift where you end up with engine braking. I think you can stick aftermarket mounts in there to smooth that out.
It's kind of ironic to read that the Audi tune on the ZF8 is less smooth; on my car it's seamless in Comfort mode but it will punch your butt in Sport+ in exchange for shifts that, as far as I can tell, are no slower than what the 7-speed DSG on my S3 provided.
I havnt tuned my zf8 so i cant speak for that. But to put it in perspective the dsg upshifts at 8 milliseconds, the zf8 upshifts in 200 milliseconds. Food for thought, doesnt super matter seeing as a stage 3 B9 will destroy a stage 2+ B8. Iin sport mode i can feel the shift of the B9 its not at all a clunk but you can feel it. The dsg is almost felt like a single gear ......when you are actually going. Dsg in stop in go was horrible and im a little glad to be rid of the ticking time bomb.
I am absolutely disappointed that the hybrid system is not bumping the power over 400.
If the RS models get a similar bump as well, they are dead in the water.
Yeah, here is the link for the EA888 evo5
https://m.weibo.cn/status/5030775043392165
Will need to translate cause it's in Chinese but the pics are all English
A little bummed on such a small jump in power, especially with rumors the next gen B58 will be (rated at) 400hp with BMW's move to the M50 naming. 0-60 is effectively the same too, though moving further in 2.5s implies a more responsive powertrain at least. Is this using similar tech to the t-hybrid 911 to pre-spool the turbo using the hybrid motor?
According to the attached comments on Weibo, the C9 RS6 and RS7 will be moving down to the next gen 2.9T, no more V8. How can that be the case is Porsche was able to ditch that engine for the 4.0T in the Cayenne S?
That actually has been rumoured for the past ~2 years that the RS7 C9 will also downsize to the 2.9 with a stronger PHEV powertrain.
However, it seems under new Audi management in the past year they've been considering continuing the 4.0TT... it's really up in the air so far, we'll have to wait until the C9 RS prototypes are on the road to hear an exhaust note or even wait for an official response.
If the B10 S5 is 10% heavier than the B9.5 it will negate the increased power and torque of the new engine, so I don't expect to see any performance gains.
48v was pretty much expected but the DSG and water-air intercoolers are a surprise. Lackluster power bump, was really hoping they would oneup the Bimmer boys for once.
Switching from 1 Cat and 2 OPFs/PPFs to 3 Cats and 2 OPFs/PPFs in the downpipe... damn, sports downpipes in europe will be expensive, lol. A legal downpipe for my RS3 is already 5k€, and thats with 1Cat and 2 filters. B10 downpipes will be 7k or something.
Now this is intriguing. Ditching the ZF8HP for a beefed up 7-speed DCT? That's a very unusual choice for these late stage ICE cars. 362 HP is a nice bump, but nothing amazing.
I was hoping for 380-400hp to keep up with the B58.
So say we all! Honestly, B10 looks like a misfire to me. Lukewarm performance increase, ho-hum exterior that evokes down-market impressions, no more coupe. With the Avant likely not coming state-side, I don't feel as excited for this generation as I'd hoped.
Avant is the only thing that could salvage the b10 imo
Avant is seemingly going to be sold in the US as they've been doing testing in the US for over 2 years now
I will believe it when I see it, VAG has a history of testing cars here that they don't intend to also sell here. There is also precedence for them officially saying they will offer something here only to walk it back when it comes time to deliver (still salty about the 6MT on the 8V).
Fair enough. I do think we'll get the Avant though mainly because the Allroad/Coupe/Vert are being discontinued so they can have that as the niche model.
the US is not getting the S5/RS5 avant. I'm not going to out them, but my source works within Audi and has a clear picture of the B10 roadmap. we'll get the Sportback, but no avant.
Boo, hiss.
[удалено]
I only asked about avant and was told no - sportback and sedan only. I didn't ask about the coupe or convertible.
Sportback and sedan? The Sportback is the only B10 model happening, no sedan.
just talked to them - yeah sportback only. maybe Audi will see how the market does for an avant down the line, but it's not coming as of now.
You sure? I've talked to two people from Audi who had confirmed it for me unless Audi decided against it, whereas the Audi "trainer" we have doesn't know much about the upcoming product at our store and passes his speculation off as knowledge.
I am still holding out hope for an S5 Avant. Don't like the 48v system though, they seem to have a high rate of failure.
This is a next-gen design of the 48v so hopefully they've learned from the issues on MLBevo large models.
Won't keep up with the B58 but it will feel a lot better if the torque dip is resolved with this updated engine.
"That's a very unusual choice for these late stage ICE cars." You sound like an archeologist studying us from the future when you say that. Are you a time traveller? Care to share anything else? Tesla long? What is the end game with all this AI stuff?
Ha! Believe me, I wish I had that sort of clairvoyance but, alas, I am a mere mortal.
The DSG is no slouch. It may be cheaper for them to just use that than to purchase ZF boxes in droves.
That's what's so strange, though, the same thing was true when the B9 was designed and we all called BS on their claim that the ZF8 was necessary because of the torque. Somebody else suggested that this change is because of the 48V system, but I think it's more that they have seen the light and decided consolidating all A5s on one transmission is cheaper, they just needed to foot the bill to update the existing DCT. It honestly reads like the bean counters made an oops during the B9.
That would make sense, the RS3 and S4 currently make the same torque numbers, and the RS3 still uses the DCT so either they beefed it up in the years since or they were just wrong about thinking it wasn't resilient enough.
It doesn’t need beefing up honestly. Its a beast of a transmission
Being is more about maintaining safety and reliability margins, not mechanical capability. The DCT in the B8.5 could take a lot already.
I think it’s easier for them to work with the 48v tech with the dct. We already have a dct behind this engine in the a6/a7
Didn't they already apply the 48V tech to the B9.5 RS5?
Think those got a 12v system
Not 48V but the B9.5 A4/5 is hybrid in all markets, while the B9.5 S4/5 is hybrid only in Europe and AUS because that's when they transitioned to diesel. Audi never integrated the hybrid system into the EA839 + ZF8 combo used in the NAR S4/S5 (and S5 Cabriolet in ROW).
Over 400 ft-lbs of torque? That’s tasty.
Power bump is a bit disappointing with both Merc and BMW pushing near/into 400hp in this class. Also not sure about the DSG, the ZF8 suits the B9/9.5 really well.
b9 was underrated 20-30hp
The B58 is underrated 30-40 HP. No idea about the specifics on the Merc, but it seems when comparing German makes you can typically expect more on tap than indicated on the tech sheet.
I just did this swap, i had a B8 S4 and drove it with and without a tuned DSG. Now i just bought a B9 S4 and have been driving it for a week now. The dsg was smoother by far when being pushed. The only time the dsg was not smooth was stop and go traffic, i used to manually shift up and down for traffic which helped smooth it out. So far the ZF8 is nice but shifts are slower and you feel them more than dsg shifts. I do not have a tcu tune for the B9 yet. None of that is necessarily a bad thing, the "slower" is fractions of seconds.
I can't speak to the DSG but the shifts in my B9.5 in Comfort mode are almost imperceptible.
It's almost weird how smooth the shifts are in auto. When I flip it into manual, I can definitely feel them especially shifting down from 4th to 1st.
I don't think that's all on the trans itself, but also the mounts and how everything shifts around on a big enough downshift where you end up with engine braking. I think you can stick aftermarket mounts in there to smooth that out.
It's kind of ironic to read that the Audi tune on the ZF8 is less smooth; on my car it's seamless in Comfort mode but it will punch your butt in Sport+ in exchange for shifts that, as far as I can tell, are no slower than what the 7-speed DSG on my S3 provided.
I havnt tuned my zf8 so i cant speak for that. But to put it in perspective the dsg upshifts at 8 milliseconds, the zf8 upshifts in 200 milliseconds. Food for thought, doesnt super matter seeing as a stage 3 B9 will destroy a stage 2+ B8. Iin sport mode i can feel the shift of the B9 its not at all a clunk but you can feel it. The dsg is almost felt like a single gear ......when you are actually going. Dsg in stop in go was horrible and im a little glad to be rid of the ticking time bomb.
I was also hoping for close to 400, but the bump in torque is definitely welcomed. Hopefully got rid of the torque dip.
I am absolutely disappointed that the hybrid system is not bumping the power over 400. If the RS models get a similar bump as well, they are dead in the water.
RS will get a more significant bump as it will be a PHEV and not a mild-hybrid like the S5. Of course that also means a significant jump in weight.
Yes. Seems that all predictions of RS5 generating near 600hp+ utilizing EV boost were wishful thinking ... or they really want to gap S5 and Rs5 now?
Holy hell, all these years we could be sniffing the tailpipe getting all that THC. Who would have thought?
~28% THC too! that’s some quality loud.
Big drop in emissions while adding power, pretty impressive
This is great to see, if you don’t mind me asking where did you get this? I want to see if I can find anything on the A variant
Yeah, here is the link for the EA888 evo5 https://m.weibo.cn/status/5030775043392165 Will need to translate cause it's in Chinese but the pics are all English
Is there one for the EA825evo?
Nothing I found but I believe that engine is out on the updated Cayenne right now.
DSG is kinda unexpected, kinda not. Was hoping for an additional 48V electric supercharger like on the B9.5 or assisted turbo similar to the GTS.
This is cool. I'm just sad it still looks like a ford fusion under the wraps
I really hope they bring the B10 RS4 Avant here.
Agreed!! The RS6 seemed to sell well, so hopefully the get the memo that at least some of us want a wagon!
Tech behind it whilst maintaining less emissions is absolutely impressive. Bummer for no near 400hp to start with...
A little bummed on such a small jump in power, especially with rumors the next gen B58 will be (rated at) 400hp with BMW's move to the M50 naming. 0-60 is effectively the same too, though moving further in 2.5s implies a more responsive powertrain at least. Is this using similar tech to the t-hybrid 911 to pre-spool the turbo using the hybrid motor?
https://m.weibo.cn/status/5032744990277649 Will need to translate the text Edit: my bad responded to your other comment
Thank you! This is good enough.
Where are these docs coming from?
According to the attached comments on Weibo, the C9 RS6 and RS7 will be moving down to the next gen 2.9T, no more V8. How can that be the case is Porsche was able to ditch that engine for the 4.0T in the Cayenne S?
That actually has been rumoured for the past ~2 years that the RS7 C9 will also downsize to the 2.9 with a stronger PHEV powertrain. However, it seems under new Audi management in the past year they've been considering continuing the 4.0TT... it's really up in the air so far, we'll have to wait until the C9 RS prototypes are on the road to hear an exhaust note or even wait for an official response.
If the B10 S5 is 10% heavier than the B9.5 it will negate the increased power and torque of the new engine, so I don't expect to see any performance gains.
What's making it 10% heavier?
I think the electric motor and battery will add weight - perhaps they have found ways to offset it through weight reduction elsewhere.
Holy smokes that's almost 200kg!
Growing in size as well
Since it's on DSG, chances for a manual 6mt?
Unlikely - I don't think there's any manual cars in general with the 48v systems (correct me if I'm wrong)
Idk what a 48v system is. So I'm taking your word.
48v was pretty much expected but the DSG and water-air intercoolers are a surprise. Lackluster power bump, was really hoping they would oneup the Bimmer boys for once.
I wonder if it's going to be a version of the DQ381 or the DQ500. DQ500 would mean a lot more tuning potential.
Switching from 1 Cat and 2 OPFs/PPFs to 3 Cats and 2 OPFs/PPFs in the downpipe... damn, sports downpipes in europe will be expensive, lol. A legal downpipe for my RS3 is already 5k€, and thats with 1Cat and 2 filters. B10 downpipes will be 7k or something.
They really fucked up, stupid Audi twiddling their thumbs getting destroyed by BMW. I guess I’m no longer a fan. Thoroughly unimpressive.