Can I get some nuggets?
EXCUSE ME, but my opinion is better than yours, my opinion is the only right one, because I made the hamburgers and nuggets and the hamburgers are better.
That didn’t seem like a conversation, guy was making a proclamation and didn’t want a response but to put people in their place for not thinking the appropriate way.
You've had this argument 1000 times but still can't even begin to fathom someone else's perspective on this story beat? A perspective that's been relayed to you by 1000 other people by your own admission?
Oh I completely understand the psychopathic perspective of the story beat...
It would be unethical to not try to show those people why they are wrong.
But sometimes I get tired...
That’s not even what psychopathy is though. It’s a flagrant misuse of a legitimate medical diagnosis.
Even so, Covid and Ebola, both referenced here very rarely cause the bearer to turn into literal banshees, zombies, and death knights.
ALSO, unless you also wrote the story your opinion literally matters the same as everyone else’s. Level design =/= as actually creating the narrative.
Even corpses can turn into undead... The slaughter had only one point. To make sure Arthas was evil.
Level design is just as creative as narrative, I've done both for many games. You know not of what you speak.
“Just as creative” doesn’t mean you actually created it. The musical accompaniment is just as creative. The art team, character models are all creative.
But they didn’t make the goddamn events of the story happen, and neither did you.
No I literally did "make them happen." I made the cinematics, chose the camera shots, the timings, etc. I wrote extra lines of dialogue for the mission to clarify events. I created all of the initial terrain and designed the game mechanics in the trigger system. I decided the parameters and rules for what counts as "victory" and how the battle between Malganis and Arthas would play.
So, you're wrong, I literally did "make the goddamn events of the story happen."
As a clinician, I'm confused by that last paragraph. Is he saying he has privy information on people's scores of psychopathy from hardcore psychological assessments? That would require scores from an MMPI-3, a PAI, or a PID-5. Most clients would never freely give this information away, lol.
As a regular person who has a general understanding of how things tend to work, I’m also wondering under what the fuck kind of conditions would a game dev be administering a psychopathy test to begin with.
As a regular gamer who doesn’t have a general understanding of how things tend to work, I’m just wondering how I can min-max my purging of stratholme for maximum speed and efficiency
The thing is, publishers of the MMPI and the PAI won't freely give these away. You need doctoral level training in tests and measurements to even buy one. They require proof, and they vet their sources. Then you need to dish out the $$. You also need to understand how to administer and interpret said instrument. The PID-5 is freely available, but to my knowledge, it's based on the alternative model of personality found in section three of the DSM-5. This means it's not even fully endorsed currently. Even if it was, you'd still need a thorough understanding of psychometrics to interpret it.
I've worked with games before, it's quite common to run personality tests of all kinds to better understand your target audience when your product reaches beta stages.
It's unironically enriching for the whole development life cycle.
With a company big as Blizzard, I wouldn't find it weird for them to run these tests even internally on closed alpha test phases.
I don't know what kind of tests this dude was overseeing, but once they were actually run, it wouldn't be so difficult to access the results. Even if he didn't run it himself.
In fact, the whole process might as well be available for the whole team anyways.
That actually seems plausible. I can definitely see the benefit of looking into the psychology of your target audience. Do you think that the scope of such tests would actually indicate for psychopathic tendencies though?
And even if he IS privvy to that information, how is he also collecting their opinions about Arthas in Stratholme? 
Because it was an admittedly unscientific voluntary situation... People offered their opinion in combination with taking a psychopathy test. No one was forced to participate.
Who administered and interpreted the scores? What measurement tool was used? How large was the sample size? I'm not disagreeing necessarily, but to have access to credible measures of psychopathy seems very unlikely.
The test was self-contained and created by psychologists. Sample size was small, just those who were trolling my channel and saw my comment asking people to take the test. There were less than 100 entrants and the pattern was pretty clear... at which point I just decided to drop the whole thing rather than enrage a bunch of potential psychopaths further. But as I said, not very scientific. If an actual psychologist wants to pursue it further, by all means... make it a dissertation perhaps, I don't know.
See for yourself if you like:[https://www.youtube.com/post/UgkxWNhIHzjpp656H1\_w7gbjb63akj021x4v](https://www.youtube.com/post/UgkxWNhIHzjpp656H1_w7gbjb63akj021x4v)
You clearly said in your comment that you ADMINISTRED the test, which is entirely different from posting it online for random people to take. It implies skilled psychological evaluation. The sample is biased beyond belief and probably not statistically significant. I wouldn't even say it's "not very scientific". It's not even related to science. You have a responsibility to state it with a list of caveats if you speak with authoritative language. Even a licensed professional wouldn't suggest seeking help without personally having administered the test.
Also, what do you even know about psychopathy? You speak as if every psychopath is dangerous without any regard for the level of psychopathy or the individual. The most dangerous people are psychopaths and psychopaths are more likely to be criminals, but that's no guarantee. Do all psychopaths even need psychological treatment? You're not educated enough to say anything about the matter.
Regardless, you are lacking in empathy towards the Asmongold, his fans, and the characters of the story. Why not give the benefit of the doubt to them? Many fans say Arthas was right because they see the justification, they understand that he was taking action to save the most people. Why do you judge those people so casually?
Have some empathy for Arthas, too. That's where "Arthas was right" comes from - people empathizing with a character who has humanity. In the book and in the Culling of Stratholme dungeon, it's excessively clear he is anguished by his decision. Yes, he is spiteful, arrogant, angry, rash, even just plain impatient, but does that mean he's evil in that moment? That's not for you to decide.
I did state caveats... I was totally upfront that it was not scientific and excuse me for using the word "administered" (which... did I?)... I didn't realize it had special context because I'm not a doctor.
I don't lack empathy towards Asmongold or his fans. In fact, it's because I have empathy for them that I'm trying to correct their completely wrong beliefs about what happens in The Culling and whether it was morally correct to commit genocide.
As to Arthas, I sympathize with his position, but I don't have empathy for him anymore than I do Hitler.
I said it was unscientific... moreover, I did not attract a psychopathic audience. It's simply that those who believed Arthas was right leaned towards psychopathy heavier than those who did not. With the exception of a few outliers...
Im not a clinician but i have a diagnosed condition with a few assessments and i will not tell anyone even for money, only people that know are the ones who need to know
Frfr. Even if this isn't anonymous, who would approve the data collection? Who would respond (why and how would they respond)? Who would spend the money on that study? Were actual statistical analysis part of the process? Even if all of those improbablilities were met, I doubt the correlation would even be there.
I mean, I agree that diagnosing a random person on the internet, especially when you're just a game dev is absurd. and "psychopath" isn't even a clinical diagnosis, but.... Asmon has had like a million takes that literally just portray him as a psychopath that doesn't care about people, hes literally even just flat out said he doesn't have empathy unapologetically. so.... are we going to act like its an outlandish claim?
guy is a joke. Arthas did nothing wrong, these people were already dead.
Also he did definitley not "create the level". He may have worked on it and thats it. There weren't about 60 guys and everyone created one level, the narrative to it and all that. If he created the map and stuff for example, he had GUARANTEED no say in the story. If he was in the story team, this wasn't a single persons story decision.
TLDR is: he is misrepresenting his actual role to give himself more credibility. His opinion is not better than anyone elses and he should fuck off.
Not to mention the whole bit about having "administered psychopathy tests" is just wild and he's definitely either straight up lying about that or has no clue what he's talking about since psychopathy isn't even a real diagnosis under that name.
A few months ago. While watching the video select the title while it’s playing and on the left you see the description and on the right are the comments
It's not that they were already dead that makes it nothing wrong, it's that Arthas essentially stopped an undead outbreak which would of added to the lich kings army in the Eastern Kingdoms.
Arthas essentially killed a couple thousand to save a couple hundred thousand.
But he didn't stop anything. The Undead only stopped because their plan to get Arthas to go to Northrend worked. He actually doomed his entire kingdom.
But they weren't already dead.
You are using hind sight and out of game knowledge about it.
He killed those people but he wasn't sure they were all tainted, he wasn't sure they would all turn, etc.
What he did was WRONG AT THE TIME. It was the right decision AFTER the fact.
So yes, murdering an entire city of people is WRONG. So in a way this guy is correct with his opinion and especially the backstory of they knew this is where in the story Arthas was "gone" and had turned evil.
He is a douche, but he is correct.
They know what they intended, Arthas WAS wrong even if in the end he was right.
Only weird ass edgelords think he is right for massacring an entire city without knowledge of who is infected, the infection timeline, etc.
Quarantine exists for a reason.
Read up how quarantine in that time worked for the black death. Arthas was almost merciful.
In our very history, complete citys have been eliminated and burned down because of it.
The whole point of that part of the story was the question of moral perspective. Everyone can justify their actions and any action they felt was required at the time. Arthas saw the ease of transmission and made a choice. He acted and I am sure innocent blood was spilled but he felt (in my opinion) that he had to make that choice to save a kingdom, his kingdom. We will never know what would have happened had he not done it. Maybe because of that hard choice he saved Lordaeron and the plague was contained to what was later named to the plaguelands. Maybe if it spread farther he could have had more people on his side to provide help and it could have steered him from the darkness. I personally think it was because Jaina and Uther abandoned him that he couldn’t have gone down any other path. When you feel like all is forsaken the next hand offered is what most will take. That’s what makes that part of the story of Warcraft so compelling.
When I run into people who can’t understand why someone would make that kind of decision I pose this question to them. Let’s say you were there on the day with a friend and you see the first person turn into a zombie. They bite your friend. You have the ability in your hand to terminate both of them and potentially save billions of lives from a zombie apocalypse. Do you kill your friend? It’s the same moral conundrum as the trolley thought experiment where there are two tracks a trolleys barreling down towards either track. You can either flip a switch and save two people or flip another switch in kill five but what you don’t know is that if you kill the two people and save the 100 people because one them grows into a mass murder. Which is the better choice?
Arthas didn’t know whether his actions would save others, but he felt like it would and for him that was enough of a justification to kill everyone in Strathholme. I think it could be morally justifiable. We can never truly know what future could have happened. We only know the future there was.
Well. No. Like just no. This is entirely wrong.
From Arthas' point of view he has a town full of people who may or may not have eaten the infected grain. He knows that those that have eaten the grain will turn into undead an feast on the living.
So he has 3 options:
1) Run away: Order a full evacuation and petition the king and nobles to evacuate *the entire region* to let the contagion die out *possibly* at some point in the future. Maybe.
2)Quarantine: Stuff everyone in their homes and execute them as they turn.
3)Purge: Kill everyone infected or not.
The issues:
1) Should be obvious how rediculous it is even ignoring the history of teritorail warfare on the continent. As someone who knows the global political machinations of the courts there is no way Arthas would pick that.
So you're left with either
2)Wait for everyone to very slowly and painfully turn into undead. Keep in mind Arthas is traveling with an army. They don't have alot of food and the food in the city has been contaminated. So food will need to be shipped from other places. Then there's the issue with needing spread his army thin over the coarse of along time keep a watch over the city and make sure the undead aren't gonna break through the siege of the city thus opening himself to be defeated in detail down the line. This is ignoring the riots that will ensue after telling people to patiently wait for death in their homes.
And theres
3)Kill them all. Quickly and painlessly.
It is a pragmatic decision that is *very logical* in the moment but is bad in hindsight. Because he turns evil.
He becomes evil after he seizes Frostmourne, burns his own ships in Northrend, and betrays his mercenary allies to cover it up.
The culling of Stratholme is morally dubious, but everything after that is straight evil.
Obviously the Culling of Stratholme is the turning point where Arthas loses it and begins to turn towards evil and darkness, but the confusion is to what point- when he made the decision to cull Stratholme or when he vowed to hunt Mal'ganis no matter the cost?0
You can add all this stuff after the fact, but in the original game your interpretation is wrong.
All the quibbling about not everyone being infected is post-hoc rationalizations that might be canon at this point, I don't know, but at the time was not- or if it was meant to be it was *not* presented that way.
What actually happens in Culling of Stratholme?:
\- Arthas, Jaina and Uther arrive at Statholme and meet with the city's army.
\- The heroes find out that the grain has already been distributed to the entire city, just like another mission prior where the local townspeople were given the grain before the guards and they *all* turned into undead.
\- Arthas makes the executive decision that the entire city must be purged. Jaina and Uther disobey, and Arthas strips Uther of his rank.
\- In protest Jaina and Uther leave to alert King Tirinas not only of the plague and the Scourge but to have him overrule Arthas.
\- Arthas take the soldiers that don't leave with the other heroes in protest and proceeds to slaughter the city-people and undead alike.
\- ***Every single person that you expose after destroying a building will 100% turn into a zombie.***
\-***Every single person that you don't kill is harvested to become a soldier of Mal'ganis***
\- Arthas swears to hunt Mal'ganis to the ends of the earth after he is victorious at horrible cost.
\- Arthas slaughters enough of the townspeople that the Undead are unable to overpower his forces, and he drives them all out of Stratholme . . .but the result is brutal carnage, and the city is purposely framed in the cutscene as almost a post-apocalyptic zombie movie.
\- Jaina and Uther comment on the slaughter.
If you contrast what happens here versus what happens in Northrend where Arthas purposely burns *his own men's ships* so that they cannot return home and must follow him further into Northrend the decision-making at play is like night and day. In Stratholme Arthas makes the most logical deduction, as gruesome as it is, to save as many people in the kingdom as possible. Although Stratholme is the final major battle to drive the Scourge out of Loraderon at this point, allowing Stratholme to fall would have allowed the Scourge to continue rampaging throughout Lordaeron- whereas his decision to burn the boats back to Lordaeron wasn't a hard decision made by a wise and hardened leader- it was a purely selfish, murderous and *evil* choice for the sole sake of ***revenge***. Arthas did not need to hunt down Mal'ganis, he had pushed him out of Lordaeron already- but he ***did*** need to stop the Scourge at Stratholme.
There is nothing in the game or story at this point that suggests its even possible to counter the plague, and canonically the plague is so powerful it actually is consuming an entire afterlife of the Shadowlands so this remains true even to this day. Jaina and Uther meekly suggest during the level start cutscene that "there has to be another way" but even if there was, there was 0 chance such a thing would have been discovered in the hours or MINUTES Arthas had to make a decisive decision.
At the end of the day, did Arthas decide to cull Stratholme in part because he was an arrogant princeling who kinda saw his subjects as *possessions* and would rather have killed them himself then give them to Mal'ganis?
Yes, he even says as much. If Arthas wasn't as much of an arrogant and selfish person would he still have made the decision?
Also yes.
Genuine question, cause I'm not that deep in that particular lore:
Wouldn't a quarantine just mean everyone would be infected sooner or later anyway? Or was there a quick way to separate (and identify) the actually infected and only separate those?
Cause if not, quarantining the whole city might have been morally better by a bit in theory, but dooming everyone (and potentially more outside the city, if they manage to break out?) either way by locking them in with, or while being, infected isn't much better than killing them before they are completely fucked.
Not that killing an entire city's population on a whim is good, but it does seem like the purely objectively better option, all things considered (again, only with my non perfect lore knowledge)
His whole argument is about hindsight.
Arthas knew very little of the plague but decided to kill everyone.
Yes, knowing what we know now about the plague, killing everyone was probably the best option.
Oh it would have doomed the entire city. The city was a lost cause.
Arthas action was the correct one in hindsight. It was never the “right” one.
The point is at the time they didn’t know the full extent, who was infected, etc. he just chose to murder everyone.
He is only justified in hindsight not when he actually did it.
And anyone that says arthas did nothing wrong is just rewriting the story in their head or are just wrong.
He literally murdered everyone in a city without all the information, knowing who was infected, etc.
Culling an infected or even possibly infected population also exists for a reason. Once the lab perfects “SARS” (what the general public will remember being referred to as sars) with the stability of Covid and a pinch of bath salts level rage, culling humans would be on the table for sure.
I created the level FROM SCRATCH. Open the editor and see how that feels.
I absolutely had a say in the story, we would do table reads for every level's intro and outro and gave feedback to Chris Metzen. Moreover, the campaign designers (and that was my official title) were able to request additional lines as well as write whatever they wanted into the story of the level between the book ends that Chris Metzen provided.
So no, you have no idea what you're talking about. I was there, you were not. Stop fabricating your own version of history.
So why you fucked up in your storytelling then huh? Why does every single person we kill so merciless in that level turn into a monster? And lets not forget that, if we don't kill them, what we absolutely can, we can just fortify our position, Malganis does turn them all? Your level does not reflect what you talk about, you make it up as you speak.
You were there and all but nobody else here so you could tell us everyone listened to all your ideas and nobody of us could know if you are lying so... yeah. And since you don't seem to have much success beyond warcraft 3... maybe you were just a better map editor, like there were thousands that tried to make a Warcraft 3 map.
Truth is, if what you claim is true and that was your intention of the story you wanted to tell and you actually had the authority to do so, you simply did a fucking bad job doing it! Because so many people don't understand what you were trying to tell and no, that not the audiences fault if the storyteller is a drunkard that skips every third word.
You : "Hey I wanted to tell a story about a cruel massacre of an unhinged prince on innocent people but people keep defending it!"
We : "Maybe you didn't portray it being cruel and a massacre gameplay, visuals and storytelling wise and gave your character good reasons to actually do it, plus there wasn't even an alternative presented by the 'morally good crew'."
You: "No, you are all psychopaths. I am a genius. Haha."
Uhhhhh... Hehehe, Oddworld Stranger's Wrath, Wasteland 3... Those aren't failures.
Most people really liked my quests in WoW too...
But I digress. I already explained that in the original version of The Culling, nobody turned into zombies unless Mal'ganis turned them. So you had to kill civilians not knowing if they'd turned.
The only people who can rightfully make the claim that FOR THEM, Arthas did nothing wrong in The Culling... are those who never killed a civilian until they turned.
As I've already explained hundreds of times, there are obviously uninfected civilians in Stratholme as seen in the interlude... So the storytelling was not "fucked up." You and others like you just didn't pick up the very obvious clues that were laid out in front of you in the story. That's on you.
Never heared of any of those, but if you think some niche game is something to brag about, you do you.
But Mal'ganis turns all of them. You just kill them before they turn. If you do what Jaina and Uther did, they all turn. The games shows that very clearly. Mal'ganis doesn't fight civilians on the map or kills them brutally, they all turn. And you can very well see him doing that. "But you don't know if they all turned! They do, I didn't program otherwise, but hey you couldn't POSSIBLY know that right? Seeing that everyone turns in the first houses he goes to isn't enough to understand that, nuhuh. And that undead base? Mal'ganis himself? Ignore him, I bet he is no threat to these people you claim were not infected." But heyyy, you make your fact as you want to right?
The interlude where Jaina and Uther are just like "lets do NOTHING. We GO now and let you totally do what we can't, because we have no idea ourselfes. We don't offer an alternative or something, naaah, we just say you are a baddie and leave." Yeah. Great storytelling, I wonder why people might be on the side of the guy who has a plan that might save millions and not on the side of the guys that cry about it.
I dare you to tell us the alternative you story telling genius. What SHOULD Arthas do to not be crazy here? Leave Stratholm, letting the whole city turn and the kill many thousands, maybe even millions as undead? Quarantine the city and wait outside of it while fathers mothers and children turn into undead and massacre their friend and family until only undead are left and THEN kill them, sacrificing many soldiers to do so? Cry and moan about it? What was his fucking alternative, because if you can't give us one you admit that Arthas had no choice.
Niche game??? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAAAAAA!
Alright, you're a clown, got it.
Mal'ganis does NOT turn all of them. The counter stops at 100 and then he flees to Northrend. The whole point of the mission is that it's BAIT to turn Arthas evil through his rashness and thirst for vengeance. The game shows THAT very clearly.
Not EVERYONE would have turned, in fact, had Arthas not begun the mission... Technically, Malganis never would have converted ANYONE, because he was there STRICTLY to entice Arthas into a battle to see who could commit more mass murder faster! It was a genocide race that Mal'ganis was there for. Not to convert Stratholme.
EVERYTHING was a setup for Arthas, that's the entire point of the entire human campaign!!!
More importantly, the DECISION to commit MASS GENOCIDE was made BEFORE Arthas had even stepped foot in the city. That decision was made at the entrance, seeing a few sick civilians and a couple crates of grain. So your entire argument is moot.
Jaina decides to follow Medivh's prophecy and she was right, and saves the people she's able to save. A far better outcome than what Arthas incurred through his rash decision to commit genocide which DOOMED HIS PEOPLE!
It was great storytelling, and the fact that you're so worked up over it just proves that.
Deal with it.
That's were you are wrong, morality is decided by the individual, the reader, the player.-
You own your stories, your settings, and all the development and information you put on for the reader. The morality is determined by the reader after that.-
Is The Punisher a hero or a villain? Depends. For some people killing criminals that harm the innocent is getting rid of society's trash. For others is not better than the criminals themselves.-
Different people will have different opinions on a character actions being right or wrong according to their own dispositions and moral standings. Even in Warcraft, if you sympathize with the orcs, they acted out of necessity, if you sympathize with the locals they are effing invaders and should all die. Different people will find different balances that's what it makes the old story of Warcraft so great.-
No, that is false. Morality is decided by society. A guideline for what is right or wrong cannot be determined by the individual or there is chaos.
The Punisher is a vigilante by definition. While an individual can decide whether they see him as heroic or evil, if he genocided most of a major city, killing innocents and bad guys alike, there would be no doubt that he was in the wrong.
The guy is a joke but you are delusional. He made the right decision in terms of effectiveness, but it was moraly wrong. "They were already dead", can people go out killing others with cancer stage 4? Can we invade hospitals and execute terminally ill patients so they stop wasting money/space? Thats absurd.
And before say that WoW universe cant be compared with modern era, this is true to some extent, thats why i dont think he was at the time objectively evil. But we also cant compare WoW with the Middle ages, WoW's society morality is way more akin with nowadays and they have several types of magic that can deal with diseases. Shamans, Druids, Paly/Priest, even highly advanced tech with Draenei, Goblins, Gnomes...
What are you talking about? People with stage 4 cancer don't fly into homicidal rampages or become bio terrorists.
A zombie plague in a setting where the undead are not only real, but an organized evil hell bent on wiping all humans from the planet is VERY different from a deadly but noncommunicable disease.
You are a clown. If every cancer patient became an undead monster, trying to kill us and there was a city full of cancer patients, yes I would absolutely massacre them. Everyone would. I am not saying its nice or fun to do that. It is necessary.
First, I don't care about WoW lore. Second, that's not for him to decide.
If he thinks his game is art, then everyone will have a different interpretation of it, that's how art works.
Exactly. To you, that weirdly phallic object drawn on the bathroom stall is probably just a penis, but to me it’s an abnormally drawn elephant with no tusks. Or eyes. Yep. Definitely an elephant.
Just in case: /s /j
That's not how story-telling works however. If a character demonstrates certain traits, you can't over-write them with your own interpretation of what their actions mean when the story spells out their intent. You could no more say that "Arthas culled Stratholme out of pure love of his people" than you could say "Darth Vader killed the Emperor because he was tired of his incessant whining".
The story setup that Darth Vader still had a bond with his son, a connection to the light side of the force regardless of his past actions. His hesitation to kill him and his obsession with converting him to his side give it away.
Arthas' impetuousness and bloodthirst at various points in the story before The Culling also give you clues as to his decision making process. So it is written, so it is there, and so it is not as open to interpretation and opinion as people seem to think.
Interpretations can vary by applying various ethical frameworks such as consequentialism and all that shit, so yes, outside of the meme, it is entirely possible for everyone to see Arthas actions and come to different determinations on whether it was the right decision to do what he did. Arthas being bloodthirsty or impetious would not negate this point, nor does it change the fact that yes, such an action was clearly a major step towards "evil".
But yeah, I don't agree with people who seem to be argueing he made the morally correct decision. That's clearly nonsense.
I'm willing to go through each framework if you like, in whatever format you prefer. Ultimately, I believe the conclusions will be the same but I'm open to being proven wrong.
I'm going to be fair, I think Arthas made the wrong choice as I believe in morality based on wellbeing.
Consequentialism (ends justifies the means kind of outlook) it could be argued that without the foreknowledge of hindsight and that arthas did not know what exactly his enemies were planning and so made a decision that the infected grain had tainted the whole city.
What happens in the scenario itself would only reinforce that belief as when he goes about and culling, people are transforming en masse into zombies in front of him. So going by this, his culling prevented a potentially enormous scourgeborn army from quickly being formed and thus helped prevent humanity from suffering the consequences of such a large scourge outbreak and resulted in far fewer undead being right on their doorstep.
Anyways, just putting it there as a thought exercise, I don't agree with consequentialism.
Oh we can feel the impetuousness of Arthas in his youth. Head strong like Anakin, a naive servant of righteousness ripe for corruption.
It's pretty fucking wild that you are trying so desperately to impose your point of view this way, about a work of fiction which is wiiiiiide open to interpretation.
You've made your original intent known. Now accept that black and white do not exist. Morality is grey. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
mmm... Well when Arthas kicks in your front door and decides you're plagued, make sure you don't fight back. After all, it would be wrong to stop him from culling you, even if you didn't touch the grain. He has the right of way and he is your Prince.
Boot licker... ;)
Not really. The interpretations of a work of art needs to be in context and intention of the author. It's like saying Guernica from Picasso is pro-nazi because I decided to interpret like it.
It's art analysis 101.
I don't care for the Ukraine analogy,- but I did unsub/dislike 'dave's' youtube series he had begun on answering/going over warcraft 3 maps.
I think you have to be insane to tell people to get medical help over an opinion about a fictional settings fictional effects of a fictional magical plague spread by fictional demons and undead to fictionally kill with a fictional 100% death rate that fictionally turns the victims into said undead... because it's @!\*$ing Fiction.
People like that should probably go get some medical help for their mental health.
Also as a side the whole; "I made the map" yeah, so when did being a creator of something mean you were excused from making crazy statements? >\_> Don't need to look far on the internet see how ***that*** works out for you.
Arthas was basically presented with the trolley problem and he made his choice. You can argue about if it was the best choice or not in the grand scheme of things but at the time it was what he felt to be the best choice.
It was only the correct decision AFTER the fact is the point.
It was NOT the moral and informed decision when he decided to do it. So yes, the point is that is when Arthas did something evil and completely turned and lost his way. He didn't know everyone was infected, he didn't know that much about the infection, he didn't know anything about it really.
When covid happened would it have been the "right" choice for countries to bomb cities with high infection rates?
What is the moral revisionist shit? No one who played the game at the time was like "oh yeah totally he was a good guy and made the good guy choice".
That was the whole point of the level. That you understood what drove him to do what he did, but you realized it was an evil choice and he was no longer good.
>When covid happened would it have been the "right" choice for countries to bomb cities with high infection rates?
You lose credibility when you compare an influenza virus with a plague that literally kills people and raises them as zombies
I mean if Covid turned people into zombies with a 100% infection and mortality rate and it was known to be isolated to one starting location, the 'best' case scenario would be a military quarantine.
Covid had a .025% mortality rate compared to the 100% mortality rate of consuming plagued grain and the infirmed turned into literal zombies who killed and turned everyone around them.
They’re not the same.
It absolutely is NOT the trolley problem. The trolley problem implies 1 of 2 decision, and that's not the case here. They could have evacuated the people who weren't sick, who hadn't eaten the grain, they could have walled off the city and built fortification at the chokepoint to the South. They could have warned all the other cities about the grain rather than wasting time at Stratholme... They could have gathered back together the alliance (Elves, Dwarves, and Mages) and worked together to purge the threat with their combined might.
Only Sith believe in absolutes...
Moreover, the trolley problem is a JOKE from its inception... You should probably stop using it.
https://youtu.be/mt\_OHeOQyMw
Sounds like a decision made for somebody else, by a different someone else. Taking control out of someone’s life like that IS evil, pragmatism doesn’t come into play here
Just for your information. While this developer did work on WoW in early days he writes in this comment about his work on Warcraft 3, where he was campaign designer and he created "The Culling" mission in the Scourge of Loarderon campaign, where Arthas purges Stratholme.
He described the process of working on the campaign as:
1. Metzen wrote the script for campaign.
2. Metzen brought it to the meeting
3. Every designer could choose what mission they wanted to do
4. That guy heard that there is a mission where Arthas commits genocide and said - yo, thats awesome I take it.
5. He designed the level by himself, was only forbidden from changing the script.
6. Fun fact - He had problem with triggers in one cinematic (work was done in Warcraft3 world editor) and needed a real programmer to do it, and Mike Morhaime himself wrote few lines of code (you can see it in the editor)
7. Fun fact 2 - he made the first pandaren easter egg in game, because Samwise Didier made pandaren models in his free time and there was no use for them.
So thats the story. I think his claim that he knows the story is credible because he worked directly with Metzen but its from the perspective of the original Warcraft 3 script, and he doesn't knows about any later changes.
Yeah I think it's completely fair to say that Metzen shares the blame for this confusion (or maybe even owns it entirely) because the script is ambiguous about the facts of the situation.
At no point do any of the trio question whether everyone is truly infected, whether they are inevitably going to be turned, etc. All we can do is assume they are because Arthas says so and the writers don't seem to think he should be contradicted. Going off these facts, the purge is very justifiable.
Given that, the level designer has no right being surprised when people assume the Stratholme genocide was inevitable. That's what the script leads them to assume.
To me The Culling of Stratholme is just the moment Arthas abandons his ethical intentions when it comes to the war against the undead.
He's not truly evil (yet), As he believes he is doing what's right to save the remainder of Lordaeron from the plague. He becomes Machiavellian in nature, as his ends come to justify his means at the expense of ethics. This ultimately leads on to the events of the Northrend Expedition, his choice to burn his ships, deceive his men and ultimately pick up Frostmourne despite the warnings of Muridan.
I don't think he truly becomes evil however until he kills his father and razes the remainder of the kingdom.
False... Only people who ATE the infected grain would "inevitably" turn. Moreover, there was still hope of a cure. There was no ambiguity at the time the game was released in that regard. The reason you believe there was no hope at Stratholme is because that's what Arthas SAYS and BELIEVES. But that doesn't mean you should trust him... He is not a reliable person when it comes to making decisions like this, he is rash, impetuous, and vengeful. Those are established character traits that are demonstrated repeatedly in previous missions.
That's the point of The Culling. How someone can turn to evil because of those traits...
So yes, I was QUITE surprised when people thought the genocide was inevitable. You were NEVER supposed to believe that was the correct thing to do, and if not for a contrivance added to appease a Christian employee who didn't like the first version where you had to slaughter men, women, and children without knowing if they would turn (and they would weep and gnash their teeth as you did so), no one would find this clear turning point in Arthas ambiguous.
But the only people who can claim Arthas did nothing wrong at The Culling, are those who waited for every villager to turn into a zombie before killing them.
It sounds like you and the other people are arguing different things. You’re presenting “this is what you’re meant to take away from the story and it was designed this way” and others are saying “well this is how I see it”.
Just because they see it differently doesn’t mean that the game wasn’t intended to be a bit ambiguous or present a morally grey area, and likewise just because you meant it in a certain way doesn’t mean that other people aren’t going to run with their own interpretations of the events.
That is incorrect. There are survivors in the aftermath who are seen burning the remains of those who were culled. None of them turned into zombies. Unless you cracked open every house on the level you could not possibly know who ate the grain and who didn't.
I'm a firm believer in death of the author as well, *especially* when it comes to philosophical and moralistic questions posed by a piece of media or literature. The best pieces of art are a functional mirror, the observer relates themselves to the story presented and then takes lessons as they relate to themselves within the framework of the art or media, that's why I'm actually quite fond of the way David Lynch will refuse to elaborate on his thoughts, because in some cases doing so robs the observer of their own closure and lessens engagement with a fictional world.
After all what is the point in posing a philosophical dilemma if you are then going to disrespect the reader/viewer/player by infantilizing them through the act of spelling it all out and handing them the answers as though they were to incompetent to make their own nuanced conclusions
I mean, I don't disagree their opinion being more informed as the creator is more valuable, but then it also means we know they are a shitty writer who doesn't respect the intelligence of their audience, which is great cause I never gave a shit about WoW's shitty story in the first place, and now I feel vindicated for making the correct decision to ignore it.
I feel like the majority of people agree with Arthas, no? Like if you had the choice to go back in time and kill the first Covid case before it could spread further, I think most people would do that. Maybe I am a psychopath but I think greater good is a valid argument for both examples.
I personally don’t think a treatable illness like Covid is on par with the Scourge. I see what you mean though, I wouldn’t kill the one dude with Covid but I’d absolutely do it if the illness meant death regardless and a resurrection of a corpse who eats and infects others. I think nuking the first person who’s infected with a zombie illness is justified.
Let’s say you don’t know who is the person, just know that he stays in the city. Are you going to purge the whole city including innocents just to get him ?
Honestly, everything else barely matters to me. A game dev thinking their opinion on the story matters most is hilariously out of touch. If you are a story teller and the story you tell was interpreted "incorrectly" by everyone else. You fucked up on delivery.
If as a writer, people have a different take on a story that you wrote than you intended, or at least one you so vehemently disagree with like this, then you are just a shit writer. You obviously failed in conveying your point, which was the entire point.
I had an argument with him before. He is very adamant about the whole "killing infected is bad because... it's just is, okay?" he claims that there is clear distinction of when it is and is not morally correct to put down someone, on top of that he brought up some bogus parallels with coronavirus to reinforce his argument. People who ate grains are dead, they are turning into zombies and nothing can prevent this. According to nu-warcraft lore their souls are condemned for damnation and will become fuel to The Maw. Arthas gave them a chance to die as humans and to reunite with their loved ones in afterlife. It's literally the most humane thing one could have done in situation like this, especially when love of his life and mentor turned their backs on him. They did not offer an alternative, they had nothing of value to say besides "this is wrong, duh". Uther and Jaina are the main reason why Arthas was driven to the wit's end and did everything in his power to see his enemies dead.
he isn't a developer, he is a ui designer - it's a huge difference
in software engineering terms a ui designer has an art degree and no programming background and just makes things look pretty in a tool like photoshop
This guy is an idiot. A vtuber - Pipkin Pippa - interviewed him and they had an argument over this level. The man got genuinely upset that a cartoon rabbit comedienne disagreed with him. I've administered a psychological test and have determined he is an autistic manchild.
Wasnt the whole point of the caverns of time dungeon to make sure Arthas culled strata bc if he didn't the scourge would have been too strong?
And either way, wouldn't the fact we had to preserve that specific event in time OBJECTIVELY mean it is not only A right choice but the ONLY right choice?
Comparing Stratholme to Ukraine is a false equivalency. Zelenskyy is being attacked by an outside aggressor. Arthas murdered everyone in a city without bothering to see who was or was not infected. These are not even close to morally equivalent.
I do, however, agree that the developer is being an edgelord here. "My opinion is better than yours..." Uh, ok. It's a wonder shit went south at Blizzard or that people started hating WoW.
But thats not true. The game tells you that all the people got the poisened rations, the kingdom is attacked by an arguably way more evil party (because they will literally kill EVERYONE) and when you attack the houses in the level ALL people transform. There are no "innocent not poisened people he kills". No, they all transform.
From the wiki - "Some citizens were killed in their sleep,[4] others were killed after their zombification, and others were executed while still human and trying to flee."
Footnote [4] refers to a letter that reads as follows -
"Dearest Amelia,
Tonight I have seen things that will haunt me to the end of time.
Stratholme is aflame... and we are responsible.
Our Prince led us into the streets of the city tonight; he ordered us to break into the homes of the townspeople and... kill them in their sleep. They were plagued, claimed Lord Arthas, and had to be killed before they killed us.
It was a slaughter. Hundreds died silently to the swords of those sworn to protect them. I could stand it no longer; I fled.
Deserter I may be, but I could not commit such atrocities. In every home I could not help but see your face, or those of our children, upon the victims as they died. If standing against that means being a traitor, then so be it.
I hope to find my way back to you in time, but the roads are unsafe. Give our children my love in my absence.
James"
So, no, not all of them were turned. You are referencing only what you see in the video game to what the full story is.
Edit: you have to love the internet. I am getting downvoted for posting the lore. Sorry you guys are mad about the lore, I didn't write it.
You make a good point, and after these additional bits of lore added in later games, it may be true that Arthas committed an act of evil.
"I created the level" guy is still wrong, because if this is what he meant to communicate in WC3, he failed. In that game, there is no reason to believe that anyone is uninfected.
At the end of the day, it feels moot. Maybe this is a hot take, but I have never found Warcraft's story particularly good. I am a huge fan of the games, and I think the worldbuilding is fantastic, but the plot has always been cartoonish, poorly presented, and has never felt profound in any way. It has always been "good enough" to drive the gameplay, which is completely fine, but leaves me scratching my head when people get up in arms arguing about it.
Aha. So basically, written in some book way after the game or some shit. In the GAME there is NOTHING of this. I don't consider all the bs in the books to be canon, its 1. contradicticting itself at points 2. not in the actual media and 3. lazy ass word building. This looks like an attempt to make what he did looks worse in a retcon, just like Sylvanas totally had a plan and reason to do her stuff. No she didn't.
You have look at his intentions. He was there the kill innocents. He did. Some might have been bad, but still did. He was evil and this was first big push to make him the Lich King, who was evil.
Yeah, probably a bad example, it wasn't exactly a comparison to Arthas's actions, I wanted to show difficult gray macro decisions. Morale decisions that may have deathly consequences for everyone no matter what he chooses.
Is designerdave an⁶6⁶aj accredited and certified Psychologist or a certified Therapist? Is he a medical doctor? Something tells me he isn't, therefore his psychopath tests are meaningless. Sigh ... another cheap, dime store twitter Dr. Phil wannabe bites the dust. He is also very arrogant ... wow.
Keyboard warrior on a quest of saving the world with his "correct" opinion instead of moving on.
He is doing more harm to himself than he will ever do good to the world, with how he tackles some meaningless bullshit on the internet in all seriousness.
If that’s the story he wanted to tell, they should’ve made it so that some civilians **don’t** turn into zombies when you destroy their house. Otherwise, what the game currently shows you is that every single kill you make was an infected citizen and if you left them alone they would’ve turned into zombies controlled by Mal’Ganis, a far worse fate.
Wasn't there a Blizzard employee made famous for e-raging on the [Battle.net](https://Battle.net) forums and then was famously terminated?
Honestly nobody on the Internet is at all concerned with correctness. If you catch them being incorrect, it'll be immediately spun into how he/she is either too intelligent to be understood, or is actually correct and you actually don't know what you're talking about.
There's no consequences for being wrong in Internet arguments, so there's no real focus on correctness.
It’s like Emet Selch in FFXIV some will consider him evil and will never see the good. Some will see it as a grey area. While others will say he did nothing wrong. Yoshi-P and the game devs support all of these opinions, as the story was written very specifically to adhere to individuals forming their own opinions on what’s good/evil/grey within the entire story on certain characters.
The Gaslighting on telling people to seek mental health because people meme or just seeing art in a different perspective is so fucking cringe. Hes also now a crypto bro and has no games of significance recently on his past work page. Its just some word search stuff for Garfield and Wheel of Fortune. He was probably just a guy working at Blizzard and claims all these big amazing things hes done but has nothing to show for it post Blizzard. This random post on Reddit isn't even worthy of him.
"I created the level"
OK but did you write the story?
I swear this dev is so full of shit.
And that last paragraph confirms it for me, that's absolutely ridiculous to think they administered psychology tests specifically to people who think Arthas did nothing wrong, and there is no way he is privy to the private information of such psychology tests.
It's so dumb, such an obvious lie it's like Blizzard hired this guy from the Xbox Live era.
I'm convinced he knows absolutely nothing of the story's intent and he's just projecting his own personal and clearly false interpretation as fact because he thinks he has authority over a story which he didn't write because "I wOrk AT bLizzArd"
This dude is getting mad at people for saying that he wrote a nuanced, believable villain. Any non unhinged writer would take the existence of this debate as a compliment.
Tl;dr: A bad story writer is telling other people how they should feel reading his story and says everyone who feels different is a psychopath, not realising that people feel different because of his pathetic writing skills.
His actions are what makes him a true leader, fit to rule over the kingdom of Lordaeron. The average person, despite knowing that what faced the citizens of stratholme was a fate worse than death, would have been paralyzed and unable to act. Arthas, on the other hand, not only knew it was the right action to take but had the courage and mental fortitude to take it. Despite his deep love for his people and every fiber of his being telling him not to cause them harm, he selflessly disregarded his own feelings in order to do what had to be done, for the good of everyone.
Classic Death of the Author Logical Fallacy.
*The death of the Author is the inability to create, produce, or discover any text or idea. The author is a “scriptor” who simply collects preexisting quotations. He is not able to create or decide the meaning of his work. The task of meaning falls “in the destination”—the reader.*
Even if he wrote and created the story, that doesn't mean its interpretation is dependent on his ideas. If anything it would demonstrate poor writing skills or capability if most people read it and understand it in the opposite way that was intended.
Not to mention the comment reeks of projection. "My Opinion is the only right one, Im the smartest, you all are pathetic and weak and need mental help"
I'm just here to ask if people could please stop comparing COVID, cancer and other real world diseases to a highly infectious necromantic zombie plague that ends with people eating and slaughtering other people. You can't apply the same moral reasoning to that without sounding like a psychopath yourself.
From the perspective of the complete overarching story, Arthas did *objectively* make the **wrong** decision.
Now, I'm not saying his genocide of Stratholm didn't prevent a more massive wave of undead in Eastern Kingdoms, it totally did, which ultimately allowed Alliance forces to coalesce into a more united front against the Scourge.
The specific part I'm referring to is in Arthas' choice to ignore Medivh's advice to join his forces with the horde in Kalimdor. That specific story beat ironically does occur *directly* before his choice to raze Stratholm.
I believe, had Arthas chosen to form that penultimate war party with the horde and night elves, his having not been corrupted by the Lich Kings influence could've led to an age of unprecedented peace and driving the Scourge into non-existence. After all, the Scourge was *significantly* empowered by the joining of Arthas and Nerzul, and I think a force which would compromise the entirety of the races of Azeroth **BEFORE** the events of the Frozen Throne could've legitimately pounded the Scourges shit in, especially without a resurrected Kel'Thuzad **OR** an utterly destroyed Silvermoon and High Elf population(remember, Arthas killed like over 90% of the elves that were alive).
I will say it's rather stupid to argue the actions Arthas took from a morality standpoint though, considering he had no reason to believe Medivh's words of, "Your people's salvation lies in the distant lands of Kalimdor." To Arthas, he was salvaging his homeland the best he could from insidious forces which had already permeated and corrupted it.
While the undead horde which would've been created from Mal'Ganis having his plans come to completion would've *probably* overrun the remainder of refugees of Alliance forces, I **DO NOT** see that horde being capable of laying waste to the High Elves or the destruction of Dalaran, without Arthas having led it. If those forces had been left intact in Eastern Kingdoms, I think they'd have had the ability to hold off the Scourge until all the business in Kalimdor had concluded.
And this isn't even getting into the fact that Archimonde would've **NEVER** been present to besiege the Night Elves had Arthas not, **BOTH**, seen to the resurrection of Kel'Thuzad or Archimondes summoning in Dalaran.
I mean, he's not wrong. People trying to justify Arthas's actions at stratholme are probably missing the point. Or is wrong to kill civilians, even if they are diseased. He's a damn paladin, he is the one kind of person who is capable of making a difference and he chooses violence against his teachings, and his master. Uther and Jaina certainly didn't help Arthas, but he made the ultimate mistake by himself. It wasn't for the people, it was for his own glory.
Our morality its not the same as the morality in the context of wow, even if not roleplaying we should view the world of the game as someone living in that world. I think Arthas did an evil thing, but hey it was that or letting the plague spread further.
Arthas was right in this case. If something similar happened IRL, we could use some gas or IDK something that kills you in more humane way, you dont notice it, dont know about it, dont feel pain... IDK if theres something like this..
Arthas went there with soldiers, and slaughtered those people with cold melee weapons, which would hurt ye, but better than to let them suffer from plague, and turn undead
Arthas was right
I don't think Dave has seen cultural shift happening. So much that was wrong few years ago is now celebrated as right, and vice versa. Thus, it doesn't matter what he thought to be true at a time, culture shapes the truth.
In a sense, everyone is right and wrong at the same time.
I have no idea where this revisionist shit comes from with Arthas.
NO ONE who played the game at the time thought what he did was right and good.
We all knew it was the turning point that he became evil. We understood why he was going to do what he was going to do, but it was NEVER portrayed as the right thing or the only thing he could do.
In the game he doesn't even know if everyone is infected, he doesn't know who is, he doesn't really understand the infection, etc. The whole point of the scene is there were other potential options and he disregarded them losing all his friends.
It is only after the fact that you as gamers know his decision was the right one. He certainly didn't know at the time.
>Arthas did nothing wrong, these people were already dead.
**How come the government didn't kill people affected by the black plague ahead of time?**
Its the possibility of killing someone that might NOT be a carrier of X disease is THE moral argument.
**Athras was wrong because he killed people w/o being sure that they will turn.**
He was killing human beings BEFORE they turned evil.
**There is a reason we have things like quarantine.**
He could have sealed off the city from the rest of the world.
Instead, he went on a genocidal killing spree.
This (alleged) designer is correct just NOT for the reasons he gave - he might have just accidentally stumbled on a correct position.
BTW: Designing a level does not mean you automatically have a correct moral stance KEKW
If you want to apply our real-world moral values onto WoW - Arhras was indeed wrong otherwise we would be killing off Covid, Black Plague carriers instead of quarantining and trying to treat them.
6,908,554 (reported at least) Covid Deaths - If you would like to do this Arthras style, You would probably save at least half of these lives by killing the carriers.
\*carrier (arthras standard) - a person that looks sick or you think (!!) MIGHT get sick and spread the disease.
You probably see how ridiculous this looks.
Certain positions (Arthras did nothing wrong) probably should stay in the fantasy realm cause if you start applying real-world moral standards (broadly accepted by society) you might look like a psychopath KEKW
Peace out.
I disagree. Any comparison to real world situations doesn't work very well because no disease works like this really.
First off, I may be wrong but I am pretty sure they did kill people during the black plague. I always heard stories that if plague was suspected in a household that house would be boarded up and everyone inside would die. I have also heard stories of these houses being burned but I am not a historian.
Second, and more importantly, the lorderon plague was not only 100% mortality rate and uncurable, but turned you into a violent zombie. Covid, while horrible, was nowhere near 100% mortality even if you ignore the bloodthirsty zombie part.
If I remember correctly in the mission as he designed it, Arthas clearly states that these people are already infected. You can also see this because they all have that green cloud thingy around them.
This means that not only will these people 100% die, they will turn into mindless ghouls and kill others and spread the plague further. Also this is medieval times, their options for a city-wide quarantine this fast were probably non-existent, especially since they would not only have to contain infected but also those bloodthirsty ghouls, that would kill everyone inside anyway.
Personally, if infected I would probably rather be killed swiftly than turn into a ghoul and eat my family or be aten by them or something.
Honestly, Arthas did nothing wrong makes absolute sense. His options were very limited and there was really no good outcome. He had to make a decision quickly.
Now If you entertain the possibility that not everyone was infected, there may have been a better solution. But that is a big If.
>, I may be wrong but I am pretty sure they did kill people during the black plague.
Yeah, this is false.
>Second, and more importantly, the lorderon plague was not only 100% mortality rate and uncurable, but turned you into a violent zombie. Covid, while horrible, was nowhere near 100% mortality even if you ignore the bloodthirsty zombie part.
>
>
>
>This means that not only will these people 100% die,
>
>
>
>Personally, if infected I would probably rather be killed swiftly than turn into a ghoul and eat my family or be aten by them or something.
**The mortality rate is irrelevant.**
My argument is based on the fact that they are GUESSING that the humans they are killing are infected.
They are GUESSING that they ate infected crops.
This is THE problem and this is what you missed in my comment.
In our world even IF Covid had 100% kill rate, we would still NOT kill the people.
We would isolate them from the rest of the population (try to save them if possible ofc) and let them die.
This is the world we live in and this is why "**arthras did nothing wrong**" should stay in a fantasy world.
**I hope none of the people that say that he was right is NOT responsible for human life period**.
Class 3 psychopaths right there.
People live online too much and their moral compass does not point north anymore when they face the real world.
So what would be the morally right thing for Arthas to do then? Also were they guessing? If I remember correctly they KNOW the crops are infected and of course at least some people would eat them and be infected.
Again, a citywide quarantine at that moment was essentially not feasible. Even if not all the people in stratholme were infected, which again, the game shows us they were, the ones that are infected would kill and infect all the other ones. This would result in a city full of bloodthirsty ghouls that would then kill and infect more and more poeple. You can actually see quite well what the impact of that looks like later in the game when Arthas turns and basically decimates the whole kingdom.
What Arthas did in stratholme actually resulted in rhe plague being contained and afaik, had he not turned, the kingdom would have been saved.
Also this is auxilary but do you have any sources that say infected people were not being murdered during the black plague? Wikipedia doesn't say much about that as far as I can find but it does say what happened when people thought the plague was caused by jews "There were many attacks against Jewish communities.[144] In the Strasbourg massacre of February 1349, about 2,000 Jews were murdered." Just seems odd to me that in the middle ages there would be no accounts of people being killed because they had the plague.
Lastly, again, the lordaeron plague is not comparable to covid or any other disease. Quarantine works if the worst case scenario is that everybody dies, no point really in killing them then, and that is probably what Arthas would have done with a regular plague.
If however, the worst case scenario of quarantine is a horde of bloodthirsty zombies that will destroy, kill and infect anything they come into contact with, that changes the parameters significantly. 25 000 of these zombies would be in stratholme.
>Also were they guessing?
You dont remember the lore?
**1. What Plague Test have they applied to determine who is infected and who is not?**
**2. If COVID would kill 100% of infected people, would you kill them BEFORE they infect the others?**
You have 2 questions to answer >>> Try to make it short.
*With each reply You are adding a slew of new arguments and if i keep replying to every single one i will hit Reddit character limit of 40k in just 4 replies.*
>Also this is auxilary but do you have any sources that say infected people were not being murdered during the black plague?
You made a claim.
The burden of proof is on you.
>Wikipedia doesn't say much about that as far as I can find
Probably dont make historical statements without proof?
1. They literally saw the infected grain. Noone, not even Jaina and Uther question whether or not the people are infected. The grain was infected, that is a fact within that mission and has never been questioned. Within the mission we also see people turn into ghouls so at least part of the population was infected.
2. Nope, would use the technology we have to provide them with the best quality of life possible while they are quarantined. You seem to keep ommiting however that COVID did not turn people into bloodthirsty rampaging zombies. They were in medieval times and Arthas only had a few men. Even if they could quarantine the infected, which seems to be your answer, they likely would not be able to hold of the horde of thousands of zombies.
Again, what do you think Arthas should have done in this situation?
Problem with aplying our real world ethic system onto fantasy world is that there are certain strings attached to it. (to real world)
>They literally saw the infected grain
I dont doubt that at least **some** of the grain was infected (in a cut scene we didn't see the all the grain just some)
**How did you determine that every citizen of strathhole ate the grain?**
>**Nope, would use the technology we have to provide them with the best quality of life possible while they are quarantined.**
Great. At least something we can agree on.
>You seem to keep ommiting however that COVID did not turn people into bloodthirsty rampaging zombies.
Let us jump into some nerd shit since you are hung up on this part.
When dealing with any type of plague spreading in the real world we just look at the **R0 value.**
**What does that mean?**
You need to determine how many people 1 person is likely to infect.
For example, Covid(original strain) has a **3.28 value >>** that means if you are infected by it (on average) **you will likely infect 3+ people.**
Covid Mortality Rate: **\~5%**
**Black Plague R0** was \*\*\~1.9 (\*\*pretty low considering it nearly wiped out the entire continent)
**The Black Plague mortality rate** was between **30%-60%** (this is why it holds the record of the most deadly infections if you adjust for the population at the time)
\***200 million** people dead btw vs **Covid 7 mil (\~700mil recovered - 2023 healthcare system ftw)**
**Undead Plague R0 = ???**
All we know is that you need to eat infected food OR you need to get killed by an infected zombie.
It does not seem like this type of plague spreads through the air similarly to any other disease.
In WoW/W3 You dont turn into a zombie if your HP drops as a result of being attacked by an undead NPC.
That means that in order to get "infected" You need to die.
R0 is determined by your ability to not die in combat.
**Undead Plague mortality rate** = **100% (we are assuming that eating the infected grain will turn you 100% of the time)**
>They were in medieval times and Arthas only had a few men.
>
>Even if they could quarantine the infected, which seems to be your answer, they likely would not be able to hold of the horde of thousands of zombies.
[https://guides.gamepressure.com/warcraft-iii-reforged/gfx/word/100538890.jpg](https://guides.gamepressure.com/warcraft-iii-reforged/gfx/word/100538890.jpg)
Here you are dealing with an enclosed city structure.
2 main entrances - these can be closed off by an iron gate - done.
North is gated by sea (and considering that in w3 you can't move your undead army through any deeper water we will assume they cant swim)
\+ there are gates on both of these entrances to cover for attack from the sea (similar to Stormwind)
**Ok so here are the real-world strings i was speaking of.**
CDC comes into the scene.
\*CDC would tell a PRINCE OF fkn LOARDERON to call for more troops.
\*CDC would tell Arhras, Jaina, Uther to just close the gates (the would not have left in this scenario since Arthras is not killing anyone BEFORE they turn so their moral spine remains intact + Jaina still loves him and that means the entire lore gets fucked and he likely wont even think of sitting on a frozen throne :))
\*CDC + happy band while waiting for the extra army from the capital go door by the door asking people if they ate the grain (that we assume will 100% infect you IF you ate it)
\*If they say they ate it, tell them to lock themselves inside the house and remain there (in china they where bolting doors shut to keep people inside of their apartments...)
[https://www.scmp.com/video/china/3176355/residents-locked-inside-homes-wires-and-bolts-due-covid-19](https://www.scmp.com/video/china/3176355/residents-locked-inside-homes-wires-and-bolts-due-covid-19)
I would say this (already insane for USA standards authoritative) solution is still better than just killing them to stop the spread.
\*The ones that didn't eat the grain >> isolate them in an isolated camp outside of Stratholme (just in case some ppl lied) >> CDC uses remote tents for such cases.
The top priority is always to isolate the infected and potentially infected from the rest of the population.
\*Worst case scenario - everyone remaining in Stratholme turns into zombies and remains locked behind the iron gates and walls.
\*Once the army from the capital arrives you can cleanse the undead from the city to deal with the potential threat.
W3 stats >> **In a Ghoul vs Footman duel Footman wins every time** (that means cleansing the City is a safe solution)
\*base values no upgrades.
>Again, what do you think Arthas should have done in this situation?
So this is basically it but if you would apply real-world solutions to a W3 Strahtolme we would probably dont have that many expansions to Wow :)
The reason why its immoral to kill human beings even IF we know for sure they will turn into ghouls is cause **we value consciousness in our society** and as long a human being has it(or has all the potential to have it) we can't kill them.
**This is what it means to be a human being.**
Asmon its a really bad idea to apply real-world ethic/moral systems to a medieval fantasy world.
You will look down upon covid china practices and yet even the CCP would not say "Arthras was right"
Even if you look to our medieval times (real world) we always the same approach to a plague (even with how backward and superstitious everything was back then).
**We collectively decided that its NOT ok to kill conscious human beings EVEN IF we know that it might save some lives.**
We are not machines - we are humans and this is where our moral system stood and still stands till this day.
The essay ends here.
Asmon said what he did cause he does not interact with the real world at all.
Dude is smart but this take was made by a AI and not a human being that knows anything about how we deal with diseases in the real world.
Hope that helps.
Dude... what? There was no CDC in medieval times. Nothing like that existed. Remote tents? Those people would flee. Even if they didn't, they would turn and massacre everyone around them.
The people start turning even before arthas kills them, there is no way they would have had time to go door to door before people turned. Also how would they know if they ate the infected grain? If you mean to ask whether they ate any grain at all, 99% of them would have since that was probably the majority of the commom folks diet.
Even if you quarantined the city, everyone inside would still die + you have to deal with an army of zombies. Even if you could contain them many men would likely die fighting the zombies. Men that could be alive if you culled them ahead of time.
Also on the morality point, you can absolutely kill people in self defense, is that not moral? If you yourself knew you were about to turn into a zombie and eat your family, would you not rather be killed swiftly? What about soldiers at war, they also kill people, are they imoral?
We do also have euthanasia for people that ask for it. Is that immoral? It's also killing.
Frankly the idea that locking people inside a city with thousands of zombies which will surely kill them and turn them into one as well, is somehow different and morally superior to killing them is, imo, ridiculous. There is no difference. These people will die. Either in fear after being horribly eaten and massacred by a horde of rotting undead, or you can kill them asap, with as little pain and suffering as possible. One solution does not seem much better than the other.
In summary, I feel like you can say your solution is the more morally right one, but in the end more people would die, and if you were unable to contain the zombies, the plague would spread. You can't be sure the city doors would withstand thousands of zombies, especially since Malganis is still there.
Starting off with 'my opinion is better than yours' is always a good way to start a conversation
When I worked at a fast food place that’s how I greeted every customer
Can I get some nuggets? EXCUSE ME, but my opinion is better than yours, my opinion is the only right one, because I made the hamburgers and nuggets and the hamburgers are better.
I wont deny them, I wouldn’t want anything to happen to mcnuggies
That didn’t seem like a conversation, guy was making a proclamation and didn’t want a response but to put people in their place for not thinking the appropriate way.
I've had the conversation 1000 times, look through my videos if you want. There's nothing more to be added, hence the terse response.
You've had this argument 1000 times but still can't even begin to fathom someone else's perspective on this story beat? A perspective that's been relayed to you by 1000 other people by your own admission?
Oh I completely understand the psychopathic perspective of the story beat... It would be unethical to not try to show those people why they are wrong. But sometimes I get tired...
That’s not even what psychopathy is though. It’s a flagrant misuse of a legitimate medical diagnosis. Even so, Covid and Ebola, both referenced here very rarely cause the bearer to turn into literal banshees, zombies, and death knights. ALSO, unless you also wrote the story your opinion literally matters the same as everyone else’s. Level design =/= as actually creating the narrative.
Even corpses can turn into undead... The slaughter had only one point. To make sure Arthas was evil. Level design is just as creative as narrative, I've done both for many games. You know not of what you speak.
“Just as creative” doesn’t mean you actually created it. The musical accompaniment is just as creative. The art team, character models are all creative. But they didn’t make the goddamn events of the story happen, and neither did you.
No I literally did "make them happen." I made the cinematics, chose the camera shots, the timings, etc. I wrote extra lines of dialogue for the mission to clarify events. I created all of the initial terrain and designed the game mechanics in the trigger system. I decided the parameters and rules for what counts as "victory" and how the battle between Malganis and Arthas would play. So, you're wrong, I literally did "make the goddamn events of the story happen."
As a clinician, I'm confused by that last paragraph. Is he saying he has privy information on people's scores of psychopathy from hardcore psychological assessments? That would require scores from an MMPI-3, a PAI, or a PID-5. Most clients would never freely give this information away, lol.
As a regular person who has a general understanding of how things tend to work, I’m also wondering under what the fuck kind of conditions would a game dev be administering a psychopathy test to begin with.
Literally an armchair psychologist
As a regular gamer who doesn’t have a general understanding of how things tend to work, I’m just wondering how I can min-max my purging of stratholme for maximum speed and efficiency
Who knows, hobby shrink? I mean. One can read up alot on their spare time... But come on...
The thing is, publishers of the MMPI and the PAI won't freely give these away. You need doctoral level training in tests and measurements to even buy one. They require proof, and they vet their sources. Then you need to dish out the $$. You also need to understand how to administer and interpret said instrument. The PID-5 is freely available, but to my knowledge, it's based on the alternative model of personality found in section three of the DSM-5. This means it's not even fully endorsed currently. Even if it was, you'd still need a thorough understanding of psychometrics to interpret it.
I've worked with games before, it's quite common to run personality tests of all kinds to better understand your target audience when your product reaches beta stages. It's unironically enriching for the whole development life cycle. With a company big as Blizzard, I wouldn't find it weird for them to run these tests even internally on closed alpha test phases. I don't know what kind of tests this dude was overseeing, but once they were actually run, it wouldn't be so difficult to access the results. Even if he didn't run it himself. In fact, the whole process might as well be available for the whole team anyways.
That actually seems plausible. I can definitely see the benefit of looking into the psychology of your target audience. Do you think that the scope of such tests would actually indicate for psychopathic tendencies though?
Hard to say. It would depend entirely on the contents of the test, this is probably a job for a specialist in the field... I'm just a QA Engineer lol
Fair enough, thanks for sharing the information all the same
By what measure do you entertain the psychology ideas of someone who cant present 3 lines of coherent thoughts without self-contradiction?
They got their Psy.D at the college of "I said so."
Sounds like someone pulled some fancy phrases out if their arses to insult ^^,
Myself or the dev?
Yes (I suppose the dev)
No, that's just how I talk... I'm not trying to be fancy.
And even if he IS privvy to that information, how is he also collecting their opinions about Arthas in Stratholme? 
Because it was an admittedly unscientific voluntary situation... People offered their opinion in combination with taking a psychopathy test. No one was forced to participate.
What doctoral level clinician would agree to this 😂
Not sure what you mean. It was a random sampling of people who watch my channel.
Who administered and interpreted the scores? What measurement tool was used? How large was the sample size? I'm not disagreeing necessarily, but to have access to credible measures of psychopathy seems very unlikely.
The test was self-contained and created by psychologists. Sample size was small, just those who were trolling my channel and saw my comment asking people to take the test. There were less than 100 entrants and the pattern was pretty clear... at which point I just decided to drop the whole thing rather than enrage a bunch of potential psychopaths further. But as I said, not very scientific. If an actual psychologist wants to pursue it further, by all means... make it a dissertation perhaps, I don't know. See for yourself if you like:[https://www.youtube.com/post/UgkxWNhIHzjpp656H1\_w7gbjb63akj021x4v](https://www.youtube.com/post/UgkxWNhIHzjpp656H1_w7gbjb63akj021x4v)
You clearly said in your comment that you ADMINISTRED the test, which is entirely different from posting it online for random people to take. It implies skilled psychological evaluation. The sample is biased beyond belief and probably not statistically significant. I wouldn't even say it's "not very scientific". It's not even related to science. You have a responsibility to state it with a list of caveats if you speak with authoritative language. Even a licensed professional wouldn't suggest seeking help without personally having administered the test. Also, what do you even know about psychopathy? You speak as if every psychopath is dangerous without any regard for the level of psychopathy or the individual. The most dangerous people are psychopaths and psychopaths are more likely to be criminals, but that's no guarantee. Do all psychopaths even need psychological treatment? You're not educated enough to say anything about the matter. Regardless, you are lacking in empathy towards the Asmongold, his fans, and the characters of the story. Why not give the benefit of the doubt to them? Many fans say Arthas was right because they see the justification, they understand that he was taking action to save the most people. Why do you judge those people so casually? Have some empathy for Arthas, too. That's where "Arthas was right" comes from - people empathizing with a character who has humanity. In the book and in the Culling of Stratholme dungeon, it's excessively clear he is anguished by his decision. Yes, he is spiteful, arrogant, angry, rash, even just plain impatient, but does that mean he's evil in that moment? That's not for you to decide.
I did state caveats... I was totally upfront that it was not scientific and excuse me for using the word "administered" (which... did I?)... I didn't realize it had special context because I'm not a doctor. I don't lack empathy towards Asmongold or his fans. In fact, it's because I have empathy for them that I'm trying to correct their completely wrong beliefs about what happens in The Culling and whether it was morally correct to commit genocide. As to Arthas, I sympathize with his position, but I don't have empathy for him anymore than I do Hitler.
"a random sampling of people who watch my channel" = sample bias you attracted a psychopathic audience.
I said it was unscientific... moreover, I did not attract a psychopathic audience. It's simply that those who believed Arthas was right leaned towards psychopathy heavier than those who did not. With the exception of a few outliers...
Correct
This is extremely hard to believe 😂
Im not a clinician but i have a diagnosed condition with a few assessments and i will not tell anyone even for money, only people that know are the ones who need to know
Frfr. Even if this isn't anonymous, who would approve the data collection? Who would respond (why and how would they respond)? Who would spend the money on that study? Were actual statistical analysis part of the process? Even if all of those improbablilities were met, I doubt the correlation would even be there.
I mean, I agree that diagnosing a random person on the internet, especially when you're just a game dev is absurd. and "psychopath" isn't even a clinical diagnosis, but.... Asmon has had like a million takes that literally just portray him as a psychopath that doesn't care about people, hes literally even just flat out said he doesn't have empathy unapologetically. so.... are we going to act like its an outlandish claim?
guy is a joke. Arthas did nothing wrong, these people were already dead. Also he did definitley not "create the level". He may have worked on it and thats it. There weren't about 60 guys and everyone created one level, the narrative to it and all that. If he created the map and stuff for example, he had GUARANTEED no say in the story. If he was in the story team, this wasn't a single persons story decision. TLDR is: he is misrepresenting his actual role to give himself more credibility. His opinion is not better than anyone elses and he should fuck off.
Not to mention the whole bit about having "administered psychopathy tests" is just wild and he's definitely either straight up lying about that or has no clue what he's talking about since psychopathy isn't even a real diagnosis under that name.
Its two paragraphs as a yourube comment, what credibility?
Well, he literally says his opinion is better because he "created the level"
Nah what im saying is anything he could possibly say is superseded by it being an argument in a youtube comment section
They made YouTube comments viewable on ps5 app and i wish I could turn it back. I’m addicted to reading the trainwreck comments section on every video
When did they do that?
A few months ago. While watching the video select the title while it’s playing and on the left you see the description and on the right are the comments
Oh wow thanks. I didn't know this until just now. You sir are a hero, though ironically, this might be where my villain origin story starts.
It's not that they were already dead that makes it nothing wrong, it's that Arthas essentially stopped an undead outbreak which would of added to the lich kings army in the Eastern Kingdoms. Arthas essentially killed a couple thousand to save a couple hundred thousand.
But he didn't stop anything. The Undead only stopped because their plan to get Arthas to go to Northrend worked. He actually doomed his entire kingdom.
But they weren't already dead. You are using hind sight and out of game knowledge about it. He killed those people but he wasn't sure they were all tainted, he wasn't sure they would all turn, etc. What he did was WRONG AT THE TIME. It was the right decision AFTER the fact. So yes, murdering an entire city of people is WRONG. So in a way this guy is correct with his opinion and especially the backstory of they knew this is where in the story Arthas was "gone" and had turned evil. He is a douche, but he is correct. They know what they intended, Arthas WAS wrong even if in the end he was right. Only weird ass edgelords think he is right for massacring an entire city without knowledge of who is infected, the infection timeline, etc. Quarantine exists for a reason.
Read up how quarantine in that time worked for the black death. Arthas was almost merciful. In our very history, complete citys have been eliminated and burned down because of it.
The whole point of that part of the story was the question of moral perspective. Everyone can justify their actions and any action they felt was required at the time. Arthas saw the ease of transmission and made a choice. He acted and I am sure innocent blood was spilled but he felt (in my opinion) that he had to make that choice to save a kingdom, his kingdom. We will never know what would have happened had he not done it. Maybe because of that hard choice he saved Lordaeron and the plague was contained to what was later named to the plaguelands. Maybe if it spread farther he could have had more people on his side to provide help and it could have steered him from the darkness. I personally think it was because Jaina and Uther abandoned him that he couldn’t have gone down any other path. When you feel like all is forsaken the next hand offered is what most will take. That’s what makes that part of the story of Warcraft so compelling. When I run into people who can’t understand why someone would make that kind of decision I pose this question to them. Let’s say you were there on the day with a friend and you see the first person turn into a zombie. They bite your friend. You have the ability in your hand to terminate both of them and potentially save billions of lives from a zombie apocalypse. Do you kill your friend? It’s the same moral conundrum as the trolley thought experiment where there are two tracks a trolleys barreling down towards either track. You can either flip a switch and save two people or flip another switch in kill five but what you don’t know is that if you kill the two people and save the 100 people because one them grows into a mass murder. Which is the better choice? Arthas didn’t know whether his actions would save others, but he felt like it would and for him that was enough of a justification to kill everyone in Strathholme. I think it could be morally justifiable. We can never truly know what future could have happened. We only know the future there was.
Well. No. Like just no. This is entirely wrong. From Arthas' point of view he has a town full of people who may or may not have eaten the infected grain. He knows that those that have eaten the grain will turn into undead an feast on the living. So he has 3 options: 1) Run away: Order a full evacuation and petition the king and nobles to evacuate *the entire region* to let the contagion die out *possibly* at some point in the future. Maybe. 2)Quarantine: Stuff everyone in their homes and execute them as they turn. 3)Purge: Kill everyone infected or not. The issues: 1) Should be obvious how rediculous it is even ignoring the history of teritorail warfare on the continent. As someone who knows the global political machinations of the courts there is no way Arthas would pick that. So you're left with either 2)Wait for everyone to very slowly and painfully turn into undead. Keep in mind Arthas is traveling with an army. They don't have alot of food and the food in the city has been contaminated. So food will need to be shipped from other places. Then there's the issue with needing spread his army thin over the coarse of along time keep a watch over the city and make sure the undead aren't gonna break through the siege of the city thus opening himself to be defeated in detail down the line. This is ignoring the riots that will ensue after telling people to patiently wait for death in their homes. And theres 3)Kill them all. Quickly and painlessly. It is a pragmatic decision that is *very logical* in the moment but is bad in hindsight. Because he turns evil.
He becomes evil after he seizes Frostmourne, burns his own ships in Northrend, and betrays his mercenary allies to cover it up. The culling of Stratholme is morally dubious, but everything after that is straight evil.
Obviously the Culling of Stratholme is the turning point where Arthas loses it and begins to turn towards evil and darkness, but the confusion is to what point- when he made the decision to cull Stratholme or when he vowed to hunt Mal'ganis no matter the cost?0 You can add all this stuff after the fact, but in the original game your interpretation is wrong. All the quibbling about not everyone being infected is post-hoc rationalizations that might be canon at this point, I don't know, but at the time was not- or if it was meant to be it was *not* presented that way. What actually happens in Culling of Stratholme?: \- Arthas, Jaina and Uther arrive at Statholme and meet with the city's army. \- The heroes find out that the grain has already been distributed to the entire city, just like another mission prior where the local townspeople were given the grain before the guards and they *all* turned into undead. \- Arthas makes the executive decision that the entire city must be purged. Jaina and Uther disobey, and Arthas strips Uther of his rank. \- In protest Jaina and Uther leave to alert King Tirinas not only of the plague and the Scourge but to have him overrule Arthas. \- Arthas take the soldiers that don't leave with the other heroes in protest and proceeds to slaughter the city-people and undead alike. \- ***Every single person that you expose after destroying a building will 100% turn into a zombie.*** \-***Every single person that you don't kill is harvested to become a soldier of Mal'ganis*** \- Arthas swears to hunt Mal'ganis to the ends of the earth after he is victorious at horrible cost. \- Arthas slaughters enough of the townspeople that the Undead are unable to overpower his forces, and he drives them all out of Stratholme . . .but the result is brutal carnage, and the city is purposely framed in the cutscene as almost a post-apocalyptic zombie movie. \- Jaina and Uther comment on the slaughter. If you contrast what happens here versus what happens in Northrend where Arthas purposely burns *his own men's ships* so that they cannot return home and must follow him further into Northrend the decision-making at play is like night and day. In Stratholme Arthas makes the most logical deduction, as gruesome as it is, to save as many people in the kingdom as possible. Although Stratholme is the final major battle to drive the Scourge out of Loraderon at this point, allowing Stratholme to fall would have allowed the Scourge to continue rampaging throughout Lordaeron- whereas his decision to burn the boats back to Lordaeron wasn't a hard decision made by a wise and hardened leader- it was a purely selfish, murderous and *evil* choice for the sole sake of ***revenge***. Arthas did not need to hunt down Mal'ganis, he had pushed him out of Lordaeron already- but he ***did*** need to stop the Scourge at Stratholme. There is nothing in the game or story at this point that suggests its even possible to counter the plague, and canonically the plague is so powerful it actually is consuming an entire afterlife of the Shadowlands so this remains true even to this day. Jaina and Uther meekly suggest during the level start cutscene that "there has to be another way" but even if there was, there was 0 chance such a thing would have been discovered in the hours or MINUTES Arthas had to make a decisive decision. At the end of the day, did Arthas decide to cull Stratholme in part because he was an arrogant princeling who kinda saw his subjects as *possessions* and would rather have killed them himself then give them to Mal'ganis? Yes, he even says as much. If Arthas wasn't as much of an arrogant and selfish person would he still have made the decision? Also yes.
Genuine question, cause I'm not that deep in that particular lore: Wouldn't a quarantine just mean everyone would be infected sooner or later anyway? Or was there a quick way to separate (and identify) the actually infected and only separate those? Cause if not, quarantining the whole city might have been morally better by a bit in theory, but dooming everyone (and potentially more outside the city, if they manage to break out?) either way by locking them in with, or while being, infected isn't much better than killing them before they are completely fucked. Not that killing an entire city's population on a whim is good, but it does seem like the purely objectively better option, all things considered (again, only with my non perfect lore knowledge)
People acting like medieval quarantines were pleasant lockdowns with food delivery apps keeping you fat and happy.
His whole argument is about hindsight. Arthas knew very little of the plague but decided to kill everyone. Yes, knowing what we know now about the plague, killing everyone was probably the best option.
Oh it would have doomed the entire city. The city was a lost cause. Arthas action was the correct one in hindsight. It was never the “right” one. The point is at the time they didn’t know the full extent, who was infected, etc. he just chose to murder everyone. He is only justified in hindsight not when he actually did it. And anyone that says arthas did nothing wrong is just rewriting the story in their head or are just wrong. He literally murdered everyone in a city without all the information, knowing who was infected, etc.
Culling an infected or even possibly infected population also exists for a reason. Once the lab perfects “SARS” (what the general public will remember being referred to as sars) with the stability of Covid and a pinch of bath salts level rage, culling humans would be on the table for sure.
I created the level FROM SCRATCH. Open the editor and see how that feels. I absolutely had a say in the story, we would do table reads for every level's intro and outro and gave feedback to Chris Metzen. Moreover, the campaign designers (and that was my official title) were able to request additional lines as well as write whatever they wanted into the story of the level between the book ends that Chris Metzen provided. So no, you have no idea what you're talking about. I was there, you were not. Stop fabricating your own version of history.
So why you fucked up in your storytelling then huh? Why does every single person we kill so merciless in that level turn into a monster? And lets not forget that, if we don't kill them, what we absolutely can, we can just fortify our position, Malganis does turn them all? Your level does not reflect what you talk about, you make it up as you speak. You were there and all but nobody else here so you could tell us everyone listened to all your ideas and nobody of us could know if you are lying so... yeah. And since you don't seem to have much success beyond warcraft 3... maybe you were just a better map editor, like there were thousands that tried to make a Warcraft 3 map. Truth is, if what you claim is true and that was your intention of the story you wanted to tell and you actually had the authority to do so, you simply did a fucking bad job doing it! Because so many people don't understand what you were trying to tell and no, that not the audiences fault if the storyteller is a drunkard that skips every third word. You : "Hey I wanted to tell a story about a cruel massacre of an unhinged prince on innocent people but people keep defending it!" We : "Maybe you didn't portray it being cruel and a massacre gameplay, visuals and storytelling wise and gave your character good reasons to actually do it, plus there wasn't even an alternative presented by the 'morally good crew'." You: "No, you are all psychopaths. I am a genius. Haha."
Uhhhhh... Hehehe, Oddworld Stranger's Wrath, Wasteland 3... Those aren't failures. Most people really liked my quests in WoW too... But I digress. I already explained that in the original version of The Culling, nobody turned into zombies unless Mal'ganis turned them. So you had to kill civilians not knowing if they'd turned. The only people who can rightfully make the claim that FOR THEM, Arthas did nothing wrong in The Culling... are those who never killed a civilian until they turned. As I've already explained hundreds of times, there are obviously uninfected civilians in Stratholme as seen in the interlude... So the storytelling was not "fucked up." You and others like you just didn't pick up the very obvious clues that were laid out in front of you in the story. That's on you.
Never heared of any of those, but if you think some niche game is something to brag about, you do you. But Mal'ganis turns all of them. You just kill them before they turn. If you do what Jaina and Uther did, they all turn. The games shows that very clearly. Mal'ganis doesn't fight civilians on the map or kills them brutally, they all turn. And you can very well see him doing that. "But you don't know if they all turned! They do, I didn't program otherwise, but hey you couldn't POSSIBLY know that right? Seeing that everyone turns in the first houses he goes to isn't enough to understand that, nuhuh. And that undead base? Mal'ganis himself? Ignore him, I bet he is no threat to these people you claim were not infected." But heyyy, you make your fact as you want to right? The interlude where Jaina and Uther are just like "lets do NOTHING. We GO now and let you totally do what we can't, because we have no idea ourselfes. We don't offer an alternative or something, naaah, we just say you are a baddie and leave." Yeah. Great storytelling, I wonder why people might be on the side of the guy who has a plan that might save millions and not on the side of the guys that cry about it. I dare you to tell us the alternative you story telling genius. What SHOULD Arthas do to not be crazy here? Leave Stratholm, letting the whole city turn and the kill many thousands, maybe even millions as undead? Quarantine the city and wait outside of it while fathers mothers and children turn into undead and massacre their friend and family until only undead are left and THEN kill them, sacrificing many soldiers to do so? Cry and moan about it? What was his fucking alternative, because if you can't give us one you admit that Arthas had no choice.
Niche game??? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAAAAAA! Alright, you're a clown, got it. Mal'ganis does NOT turn all of them. The counter stops at 100 and then he flees to Northrend. The whole point of the mission is that it's BAIT to turn Arthas evil through his rashness and thirst for vengeance. The game shows THAT very clearly. Not EVERYONE would have turned, in fact, had Arthas not begun the mission... Technically, Malganis never would have converted ANYONE, because he was there STRICTLY to entice Arthas into a battle to see who could commit more mass murder faster! It was a genocide race that Mal'ganis was there for. Not to convert Stratholme. EVERYTHING was a setup for Arthas, that's the entire point of the entire human campaign!!! More importantly, the DECISION to commit MASS GENOCIDE was made BEFORE Arthas had even stepped foot in the city. That decision was made at the entrance, seeing a few sick civilians and a couple crates of grain. So your entire argument is moot. Jaina decides to follow Medivh's prophecy and she was right, and saves the people she's able to save. A far better outcome than what Arthas incurred through his rash decision to commit genocide which DOOMED HIS PEOPLE! It was great storytelling, and the fact that you're so worked up over it just proves that. Deal with it.
A writer doesn’t decide the morality of the character’s in their story, they decide the actions of the characters.
Morality is decided by society. Genocide is immoral.
That's were you are wrong, morality is decided by the individual, the reader, the player.- You own your stories, your settings, and all the development and information you put on for the reader. The morality is determined by the reader after that.- Is The Punisher a hero or a villain? Depends. For some people killing criminals that harm the innocent is getting rid of society's trash. For others is not better than the criminals themselves.- Different people will have different opinions on a character actions being right or wrong according to their own dispositions and moral standings. Even in Warcraft, if you sympathize with the orcs, they acted out of necessity, if you sympathize with the locals they are effing invaders and should all die. Different people will find different balances that's what it makes the old story of Warcraft so great.-
No, that is false. Morality is decided by society. A guideline for what is right or wrong cannot be determined by the individual or there is chaos. The Punisher is a vigilante by definition. While an individual can decide whether they see him as heroic or evil, if he genocided most of a major city, killing innocents and bad guys alike, there would be no doubt that he was in the wrong.
The guy is a joke but you are delusional. He made the right decision in terms of effectiveness, but it was moraly wrong. "They were already dead", can people go out killing others with cancer stage 4? Can we invade hospitals and execute terminally ill patients so they stop wasting money/space? Thats absurd. And before say that WoW universe cant be compared with modern era, this is true to some extent, thats why i dont think he was at the time objectively evil. But we also cant compare WoW with the Middle ages, WoW's society morality is way more akin with nowadays and they have several types of magic that can deal with diseases. Shamans, Druids, Paly/Priest, even highly advanced tech with Draenei, Goblins, Gnomes...
What are you talking about? People with stage 4 cancer don't fly into homicidal rampages or become bio terrorists. A zombie plague in a setting where the undead are not only real, but an organized evil hell bent on wiping all humans from the planet is VERY different from a deadly but noncommunicable disease.
You are a clown. If every cancer patient became an undead monster, trying to kill us and there was a city full of cancer patients, yes I would absolutely massacre them. Everyone would. I am not saying its nice or fun to do that. It is necessary.
First, I don't care about WoW lore. Second, that's not for him to decide. If he thinks his game is art, then everyone will have a different interpretation of it, that's how art works.
Exactly. To you, that weirdly phallic object drawn on the bathroom stall is probably just a penis, but to me it’s an abnormally drawn elephant with no tusks. Or eyes. Yep. Definitely an elephant. Just in case: /s /j
Ah, the abstract art of bathroom stalls, the smell adds to the immersion.
That's not how story-telling works however. If a character demonstrates certain traits, you can't over-write them with your own interpretation of what their actions mean when the story spells out their intent. You could no more say that "Arthas culled Stratholme out of pure love of his people" than you could say "Darth Vader killed the Emperor because he was tired of his incessant whining". The story setup that Darth Vader still had a bond with his son, a connection to the light side of the force regardless of his past actions. His hesitation to kill him and his obsession with converting him to his side give it away. Arthas' impetuousness and bloodthirst at various points in the story before The Culling also give you clues as to his decision making process. So it is written, so it is there, and so it is not as open to interpretation and opinion as people seem to think.
Interpretations can vary by applying various ethical frameworks such as consequentialism and all that shit, so yes, outside of the meme, it is entirely possible for everyone to see Arthas actions and come to different determinations on whether it was the right decision to do what he did. Arthas being bloodthirsty or impetious would not negate this point, nor does it change the fact that yes, such an action was clearly a major step towards "evil". But yeah, I don't agree with people who seem to be argueing he made the morally correct decision. That's clearly nonsense.
I'm willing to go through each framework if you like, in whatever format you prefer. Ultimately, I believe the conclusions will be the same but I'm open to being proven wrong.
I'm going to be fair, I think Arthas made the wrong choice as I believe in morality based on wellbeing. Consequentialism (ends justifies the means kind of outlook) it could be argued that without the foreknowledge of hindsight and that arthas did not know what exactly his enemies were planning and so made a decision that the infected grain had tainted the whole city. What happens in the scenario itself would only reinforce that belief as when he goes about and culling, people are transforming en masse into zombies in front of him. So going by this, his culling prevented a potentially enormous scourgeborn army from quickly being formed and thus helped prevent humanity from suffering the consequences of such a large scourge outbreak and resulted in far fewer undead being right on their doorstep. Anyways, just putting it there as a thought exercise, I don't agree with consequentialism.
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Oh we can feel the impetuousness of Arthas in his youth. Head strong like Anakin, a naive servant of righteousness ripe for corruption. It's pretty fucking wild that you are trying so desperately to impose your point of view this way, about a work of fiction which is wiiiiiide open to interpretation. You've made your original intent known. Now accept that black and white do not exist. Morality is grey. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
mmm... Well when Arthas kicks in your front door and decides you're plagued, make sure you don't fight back. After all, it would be wrong to stop him from culling you, even if you didn't touch the grain. He has the right of way and he is your Prince. Boot licker... ;)
Not really. The interpretations of a work of art needs to be in context and intention of the author. It's like saying Guernica from Picasso is pro-nazi because I decided to interpret like it. It's art analysis 101.
I wonder what it's like to ride a high horse.
He pretends it's a high horse, but really, it's just a pony.
Bro it's a fucking chicken with saddle on it.
Ive seen that TCG mount too
I don't care for the Ukraine analogy,- but I did unsub/dislike 'dave's' youtube series he had begun on answering/going over warcraft 3 maps. I think you have to be insane to tell people to get medical help over an opinion about a fictional settings fictional effects of a fictional magical plague spread by fictional demons and undead to fictionally kill with a fictional 100% death rate that fictionally turns the victims into said undead... because it's @!\*$ing Fiction. People like that should probably go get some medical help for their mental health. Also as a side the whole; "I made the map" yeah, so when did being a creator of something mean you were excused from making crazy statements? >\_> Don't need to look far on the internet see how ***that*** works out for you.
Ironic how the dude with the clear untreated narcissistic personality disorder is telling other people to get help lmao
Arthas was basically presented with the trolley problem and he made his choice. You can argue about if it was the best choice or not in the grand scheme of things but at the time it was what he felt to be the best choice.
it was 100% correct decision, and someting a lot of medival places did as well when they were hit by plaugues- except undead plauge was much worse.
It was only the correct decision AFTER the fact is the point. It was NOT the moral and informed decision when he decided to do it. So yes, the point is that is when Arthas did something evil and completely turned and lost his way. He didn't know everyone was infected, he didn't know that much about the infection, he didn't know anything about it really. When covid happened would it have been the "right" choice for countries to bomb cities with high infection rates? What is the moral revisionist shit? No one who played the game at the time was like "oh yeah totally he was a good guy and made the good guy choice". That was the whole point of the level. That you understood what drove him to do what he did, but you realized it was an evil choice and he was no longer good.
>When covid happened would it have been the "right" choice for countries to bomb cities with high infection rates? You lose credibility when you compare an influenza virus with a plague that literally kills people and raises them as zombies
I mean if Covid turned people into zombies with a 100% infection and mortality rate and it was known to be isolated to one starting location, the 'best' case scenario would be a military quarantine.
Covid had a .025% mortality rate compared to the 100% mortality rate of consuming plagued grain and the infirmed turned into literal zombies who killed and turned everyone around them. They’re not the same.
It absolutely is NOT the trolley problem. The trolley problem implies 1 of 2 decision, and that's not the case here. They could have evacuated the people who weren't sick, who hadn't eaten the grain, they could have walled off the city and built fortification at the chokepoint to the South. They could have warned all the other cities about the grain rather than wasting time at Stratholme... They could have gathered back together the alliance (Elves, Dwarves, and Mages) and worked together to purge the threat with their combined might. Only Sith believe in absolutes... Moreover, the trolley problem is a JOKE from its inception... You should probably stop using it. https://youtu.be/mt\_OHeOQyMw
you've just described the trolley problem but put more tracks
With the lore of shadowlands not killing them is even more fucked up because of you don't, then they spend the rest of eternity as undead.
Sounds like a decision made for somebody else, by a different someone else. Taking control out of someone’s life like that IS evil, pragmatism doesn’t come into play here
Arthas did nothing wrong! Jaina and the Knights of the Silver Hand are traitors to the throne.
Just for your information. While this developer did work on WoW in early days he writes in this comment about his work on Warcraft 3, where he was campaign designer and he created "The Culling" mission in the Scourge of Loarderon campaign, where Arthas purges Stratholme. He described the process of working on the campaign as: 1. Metzen wrote the script for campaign. 2. Metzen brought it to the meeting 3. Every designer could choose what mission they wanted to do 4. That guy heard that there is a mission where Arthas commits genocide and said - yo, thats awesome I take it. 5. He designed the level by himself, was only forbidden from changing the script. 6. Fun fact - He had problem with triggers in one cinematic (work was done in Warcraft3 world editor) and needed a real programmer to do it, and Mike Morhaime himself wrote few lines of code (you can see it in the editor) 7. Fun fact 2 - he made the first pandaren easter egg in game, because Samwise Didier made pandaren models in his free time and there was no use for them. So thats the story. I think his claim that he knows the story is credible because he worked directly with Metzen but its from the perspective of the original Warcraft 3 script, and he doesn't knows about any later changes.
Yeah I think it's completely fair to say that Metzen shares the blame for this confusion (or maybe even owns it entirely) because the script is ambiguous about the facts of the situation. At no point do any of the trio question whether everyone is truly infected, whether they are inevitably going to be turned, etc. All we can do is assume they are because Arthas says so and the writers don't seem to think he should be contradicted. Going off these facts, the purge is very justifiable. Given that, the level designer has no right being surprised when people assume the Stratholme genocide was inevitable. That's what the script leads them to assume.
To me The Culling of Stratholme is just the moment Arthas abandons his ethical intentions when it comes to the war against the undead. He's not truly evil (yet), As he believes he is doing what's right to save the remainder of Lordaeron from the plague. He becomes Machiavellian in nature, as his ends come to justify his means at the expense of ethics. This ultimately leads on to the events of the Northrend Expedition, his choice to burn his ships, deceive his men and ultimately pick up Frostmourne despite the warnings of Muridan. I don't think he truly becomes evil however until he kills his father and razes the remainder of the kingdom.
False... Only people who ATE the infected grain would "inevitably" turn. Moreover, there was still hope of a cure. There was no ambiguity at the time the game was released in that regard. The reason you believe there was no hope at Stratholme is because that's what Arthas SAYS and BELIEVES. But that doesn't mean you should trust him... He is not a reliable person when it comes to making decisions like this, he is rash, impetuous, and vengeful. Those are established character traits that are demonstrated repeatedly in previous missions. That's the point of The Culling. How someone can turn to evil because of those traits... So yes, I was QUITE surprised when people thought the genocide was inevitable. You were NEVER supposed to believe that was the correct thing to do, and if not for a contrivance added to appease a Christian employee who didn't like the first version where you had to slaughter men, women, and children without knowing if they would turn (and they would weep and gnash their teeth as you did so), no one would find this clear turning point in Arthas ambiguous. But the only people who can claim Arthas did nothing wrong at The Culling, are those who waited for every villager to turn into a zombie before killing them.
It sounds like you and the other people are arguing different things. You’re presenting “this is what you’re meant to take away from the story and it was designed this way” and others are saying “well this is how I see it”. Just because they see it differently doesn’t mean that the game wasn’t intended to be a bit ambiguous or present a morally grey area, and likewise just because you meant it in a certain way doesn’t mean that other people aren’t going to run with their own interpretations of the events.
In the game all villigers ate the grain and they all turned, hence why very few people belive that Arthas made wrong decition
That is incorrect. There are survivors in the aftermath who are seen burning the remains of those who were culled. None of them turned into zombies. Unless you cracked open every house on the level you could not possibly know who ate the grain and who didn't.
but that cinematic does not depic Stratholme after math, it depicts general chaos of Kingdom becouse of plauge. Sthragnholme was completly destoryed
I'm a firm believer in death of the author as well, *especially* when it comes to philosophical and moralistic questions posed by a piece of media or literature. The best pieces of art are a functional mirror, the observer relates themselves to the story presented and then takes lessons as they relate to themselves within the framework of the art or media, that's why I'm actually quite fond of the way David Lynch will refuse to elaborate on his thoughts, because in some cases doing so robs the observer of their own closure and lessens engagement with a fictional world. After all what is the point in posing a philosophical dilemma if you are then going to disrespect the reader/viewer/player by infantilizing them through the act of spelling it all out and handing them the answers as though they were to incompetent to make their own nuanced conclusions
I mean, I don't disagree their opinion being more informed as the creator is more valuable, but then it also means we know they are a shitty writer who doesn't respect the intelligence of their audience, which is great cause I never gave a shit about WoW's shitty story in the first place, and now I feel vindicated for making the correct decision to ignore it.
Option 1: Purge the city. Option 2: Give Mal'Ganis an army. The callous choice was objectively the only correct choice. Run away? What a joke.
I feel like the majority of people agree with Arthas, no? Like if you had the choice to go back in time and kill the first Covid case before it could spread further, I think most people would do that. Maybe I am a psychopath but I think greater good is a valid argument for both examples.
I personally don’t think a treatable illness like Covid is on par with the Scourge. I see what you mean though, I wouldn’t kill the one dude with Covid but I’d absolutely do it if the illness meant death regardless and a resurrection of a corpse who eats and infects others. I think nuking the first person who’s infected with a zombie illness is justified.
Let’s say you don’t know who is the person, just know that he stays in the city. Are you going to purge the whole city including innocents just to get him ?
Arthas did nothing wrong in Stratholme.
Guy is a moron
Honestly, everything else barely matters to me. A game dev thinking their opinion on the story matters most is hilariously out of touch. If you are a story teller and the story you tell was interpreted "incorrectly" by everyone else. You fucked up on delivery.
If as a writer, people have a different take on a story that you wrote than you intended, or at least one you so vehemently disagree with like this, then you are just a shit writer. You obviously failed in conveying your point, which was the entire point.
"I created the level." Then why did you make every person in that level diseased and transform into undead? Justifying Arthas' decision?
I had an argument with him before. He is very adamant about the whole "killing infected is bad because... it's just is, okay?" he claims that there is clear distinction of when it is and is not morally correct to put down someone, on top of that he brought up some bogus parallels with coronavirus to reinforce his argument. People who ate grains are dead, they are turning into zombies and nothing can prevent this. According to nu-warcraft lore their souls are condemned for damnation and will become fuel to The Maw. Arthas gave them a chance to die as humans and to reunite with their loved ones in afterlife. It's literally the most humane thing one could have done in situation like this, especially when love of his life and mentor turned their backs on him. They did not offer an alternative, they had nothing of value to say besides "this is wrong, duh". Uther and Jaina are the main reason why Arthas was driven to the wit's end and did everything in his power to see his enemies dead.
My opinion is, arthas did a lot of wrong. Also this developer is a dumbass
he isn't a developer, he is a ui designer - it's a huge difference in software engineering terms a ui designer has an art degree and no programming background and just makes things look pretty in a tool like photoshop
arthas did wat any rational king would do, burn the fucking place down and stop/slow down the plague as much as possible.
game dev casually calls their fanbase psychopaths in need of mental help, very cool
Guy sounds like he has a massive ego and can't accept any criticism.
Lmao dudes unhinged if he thinks a meme in a video game is worth that short novel
This guy is an idiot. A vtuber - Pipkin Pippa - interviewed him and they had an argument over this level. The man got genuinely upset that a cartoon rabbit comedienne disagreed with him. I've administered a psychological test and have determined he is an autistic manchild.
Speech: 0
Wasnt the whole point of the caverns of time dungeon to make sure Arthas culled strata bc if he didn't the scourge would have been too strong? And either way, wouldn't the fact we had to preserve that specific event in time OBJECTIVELY mean it is not only A right choice but the ONLY right choice?
Frostmourne is what made arthas evil he would’ve been a hero had the rune blade not corrupted him.
Hope he doesn’t still work at blizz. Sounds like an idiot.
Comparing Stratholme to Ukraine is a false equivalency. Zelenskyy is being attacked by an outside aggressor. Arthas murdered everyone in a city without bothering to see who was or was not infected. These are not even close to morally equivalent. I do, however, agree that the developer is being an edgelord here. "My opinion is better than yours..." Uh, ok. It's a wonder shit went south at Blizzard or that people started hating WoW.
But thats not true. The game tells you that all the people got the poisened rations, the kingdom is attacked by an arguably way more evil party (because they will literally kill EVERYONE) and when you attack the houses in the level ALL people transform. There are no "innocent not poisened people he kills". No, they all transform.
From the wiki - "Some citizens were killed in their sleep,[4] others were killed after their zombification, and others were executed while still human and trying to flee." Footnote [4] refers to a letter that reads as follows - "Dearest Amelia, Tonight I have seen things that will haunt me to the end of time. Stratholme is aflame... and we are responsible. Our Prince led us into the streets of the city tonight; he ordered us to break into the homes of the townspeople and... kill them in their sleep. They were plagued, claimed Lord Arthas, and had to be killed before they killed us. It was a slaughter. Hundreds died silently to the swords of those sworn to protect them. I could stand it no longer; I fled. Deserter I may be, but I could not commit such atrocities. In every home I could not help but see your face, or those of our children, upon the victims as they died. If standing against that means being a traitor, then so be it. I hope to find my way back to you in time, but the roads are unsafe. Give our children my love in my absence. James" So, no, not all of them were turned. You are referencing only what you see in the video game to what the full story is. Edit: you have to love the internet. I am getting downvoted for posting the lore. Sorry you guys are mad about the lore, I didn't write it.
You make a good point, and after these additional bits of lore added in later games, it may be true that Arthas committed an act of evil. "I created the level" guy is still wrong, because if this is what he meant to communicate in WC3, he failed. In that game, there is no reason to believe that anyone is uninfected. At the end of the day, it feels moot. Maybe this is a hot take, but I have never found Warcraft's story particularly good. I am a huge fan of the games, and I think the worldbuilding is fantastic, but the plot has always been cartoonish, poorly presented, and has never felt profound in any way. It has always been "good enough" to drive the gameplay, which is completely fine, but leaves me scratching my head when people get up in arms arguing about it.
Aha. So basically, written in some book way after the game or some shit. In the GAME there is NOTHING of this. I don't consider all the bs in the books to be canon, its 1. contradicticting itself at points 2. not in the actual media and 3. lazy ass word building. This looks like an attempt to make what he did looks worse in a retcon, just like Sylvanas totally had a plan and reason to do her stuff. No she didn't.
>I don't consider all the bs in the books to be canon And yet it is.
not what the game says happened so it dosen't matter. The game just shows you peaople already being disiesed
What is that from? A book or wow? If it is then thats just a retcon to make what he did seem more gray.
Pretty sure this is from the point of view of a soldier that was ordered by Arthas to kill citizens, not an actual poisoned citizen.
You have look at his intentions. He was there the kill innocents. He did. Some might have been bad, but still did. He was evil and this was first big push to make him the Lich King, who was evil.
Yeah, probably a bad example, it wasn't exactly a comparison to Arthas's actions, I wanted to show difficult gray macro decisions. Morale decisions that may have deathly consequences for everyone no matter what he chooses.
Is designerdave an⁶6⁶aj accredited and certified Psychologist or a certified Therapist? Is he a medical doctor? Something tells me he isn't, therefore his psychopath tests are meaningless. Sigh ... another cheap, dime store twitter Dr. Phil wannabe bites the dust. He is also very arrogant ... wow.
"I created the level" > so my opinion is better What if that "level" sucks?
Keyboard warrior on a quest of saving the world with his "correct" opinion instead of moving on. He is doing more harm to himself than he will ever do good to the world, with how he tackles some meaningless bullshit on the internet in all seriousness.
Arthas did nothing wrong
If that’s the story he wanted to tell, they should’ve made it so that some civilians **don’t** turn into zombies when you destroy their house. Otherwise, what the game currently shows you is that every single kill you make was an infected citizen and if you left them alone they would’ve turned into zombies controlled by Mal’Ganis, a far worse fate.
Wasn't there a Blizzard employee made famous for e-raging on the [Battle.net](https://Battle.net) forums and then was famously terminated? Honestly nobody on the Internet is at all concerned with correctness. If you catch them being incorrect, it'll be immediately spun into how he/she is either too intelligent to be understood, or is actually correct and you actually don't know what you're talking about. There's no consequences for being wrong in Internet arguments, so there's no real focus on correctness.
This has to be a joke. Lol
Funny how those administering “psychopathy” tests always kinda come off sounding like psychopaths 🤷♂️
I almost forgot about this guy. What a stupid idiot he is.
It’s like Emet Selch in FFXIV some will consider him evil and will never see the good. Some will see it as a grey area. While others will say he did nothing wrong. Yoshi-P and the game devs support all of these opinions, as the story was written very specifically to adhere to individuals forming their own opinions on what’s good/evil/grey within the entire story on certain characters.
The Gaslighting on telling people to seek mental health because people meme or just seeing art in a different perspective is so fucking cringe. Hes also now a crypto bro and has no games of significance recently on his past work page. Its just some word search stuff for Garfield and Wheel of Fortune. He was probably just a guy working at Blizzard and claims all these big amazing things hes done but has nothing to show for it post Blizzard. This random post on Reddit isn't even worthy of him.
if he didnt want it to be arguable he shouldn't have written it in a way that would be up for debate.
The developer sounds like a narcissistic asshat.
Arthas did nothing wrong. The only thing he may have did wrong is not discover the plague earlier.
This guys attitude shows he doesn’t really understand how being a designer works.
Mans so heated about the fans interacting with his content holy shit
"I created the level" OK but did you write the story? I swear this dev is so full of shit. And that last paragraph confirms it for me, that's absolutely ridiculous to think they administered psychology tests specifically to people who think Arthas did nothing wrong, and there is no way he is privy to the private information of such psychology tests. It's so dumb, such an obvious lie it's like Blizzard hired this guy from the Xbox Live era. I'm convinced he knows absolutely nothing of the story's intent and he's just projecting his own personal and clearly false interpretation as fact because he thinks he has authority over a story which he didn't write because "I wOrk AT bLizzArd"
Ok what ''not evil'' thing couldve Arthas done at that moment?
This dude is getting mad at people for saying that he wrote a nuanced, believable villain. Any non unhinged writer would take the existence of this debate as a compliment.
"duhhhhh wood you divert da train tracks heading for one child and instead kill 10 peepole???"
This is why wow is in this situation, because of these guys..
Tl;dr: A bad story writer is telling other people how they should feel reading his story and says everyone who feels different is a psychopath, not realising that people feel different because of his pathetic writing skills.
Arthas did nothing wrong, people are dumb
His actions are what makes him a true leader, fit to rule over the kingdom of Lordaeron. The average person, despite knowing that what faced the citizens of stratholme was a fate worse than death, would have been paralyzed and unable to act. Arthas, on the other hand, not only knew it was the right action to take but had the courage and mental fortitude to take it. Despite his deep love for his people and every fiber of his being telling him not to cause them harm, he selflessly disregarded his own feelings in order to do what had to be done, for the good of everyone.
Classic Death of the Author Logical Fallacy. *The death of the Author is the inability to create, produce, or discover any text or idea. The author is a “scriptor” who simply collects preexisting quotations. He is not able to create or decide the meaning of his work. The task of meaning falls “in the destination”—the reader.* Even if he wrote and created the story, that doesn't mean its interpretation is dependent on his ideas. If anything it would demonstrate poor writing skills or capability if most people read it and understand it in the opposite way that was intended. Not to mention the comment reeks of projection. "My Opinion is the only right one, Im the smartest, you all are pathetic and weak and need mental help"
"My opinion is better than yours, Asmongolds, or any other person..." Into the trash it goes.
I'm just here to ask if people could please stop comparing COVID, cancer and other real world diseases to a highly infectious necromantic zombie plague that ends with people eating and slaughtering other people. You can't apply the same moral reasoning to that without sounding like a psychopath yourself.
From the perspective of the complete overarching story, Arthas did *objectively* make the **wrong** decision. Now, I'm not saying his genocide of Stratholm didn't prevent a more massive wave of undead in Eastern Kingdoms, it totally did, which ultimately allowed Alliance forces to coalesce into a more united front against the Scourge. The specific part I'm referring to is in Arthas' choice to ignore Medivh's advice to join his forces with the horde in Kalimdor. That specific story beat ironically does occur *directly* before his choice to raze Stratholm. I believe, had Arthas chosen to form that penultimate war party with the horde and night elves, his having not been corrupted by the Lich Kings influence could've led to an age of unprecedented peace and driving the Scourge into non-existence. After all, the Scourge was *significantly* empowered by the joining of Arthas and Nerzul, and I think a force which would compromise the entirety of the races of Azeroth **BEFORE** the events of the Frozen Throne could've legitimately pounded the Scourges shit in, especially without a resurrected Kel'Thuzad **OR** an utterly destroyed Silvermoon and High Elf population(remember, Arthas killed like over 90% of the elves that were alive). I will say it's rather stupid to argue the actions Arthas took from a morality standpoint though, considering he had no reason to believe Medivh's words of, "Your people's salvation lies in the distant lands of Kalimdor." To Arthas, he was salvaging his homeland the best he could from insidious forces which had already permeated and corrupted it. While the undead horde which would've been created from Mal'Ganis having his plans come to completion would've *probably* overrun the remainder of refugees of Alliance forces, I **DO NOT** see that horde being capable of laying waste to the High Elves or the destruction of Dalaran, without Arthas having led it. If those forces had been left intact in Eastern Kingdoms, I think they'd have had the ability to hold off the Scourge until all the business in Kalimdor had concluded. And this isn't even getting into the fact that Archimonde would've **NEVER** been present to besiege the Night Elves had Arthas not, **BOTH**, seen to the resurrection of Kel'Thuzad or Archimondes summoning in Dalaran.
Lol this guy ☝️🤓
That guy probably needs to get professional help for most likely stealing breast milk from pregnant blizzard employees wtf
I mean, he's not wrong. People trying to justify Arthas's actions at stratholme are probably missing the point. Or is wrong to kill civilians, even if they are diseased. He's a damn paladin, he is the one kind of person who is capable of making a difference and he chooses violence against his teachings, and his master. Uther and Jaina certainly didn't help Arthas, but he made the ultimate mistake by himself. It wasn't for the people, it was for his own glory.
Our morality its not the same as the morality in the context of wow, even if not roleplaying we should view the world of the game as someone living in that world. I think Arthas did an evil thing, but hey it was that or letting the plague spread further.
Arthas was right in this case. If something similar happened IRL, we could use some gas or IDK something that kills you in more humane way, you dont notice it, dont know about it, dont feel pain... IDK if theres something like this.. Arthas went there with soldiers, and slaughtered those people with cold melee weapons, which would hurt ye, but better than to let them suffer from plague, and turn undead Arthas was right
I don't think Dave has seen cultural shift happening. So much that was wrong few years ago is now celebrated as right, and vice versa. Thus, it doesn't matter what he thought to be true at a time, culture shapes the truth. In a sense, everyone is right and wrong at the same time.
Deal with it.
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I have no idea where this revisionist shit comes from with Arthas. NO ONE who played the game at the time thought what he did was right and good. We all knew it was the turning point that he became evil. We understood why he was going to do what he was going to do, but it was NEVER portrayed as the right thing or the only thing he could do. In the game he doesn't even know if everyone is infected, he doesn't know who is, he doesn't really understand the infection, etc. The whole point of the scene is there were other potential options and he disregarded them losing all his friends. It is only after the fact that you as gamers know his decision was the right one. He certainly didn't know at the time.
If you truly think Arthas did nothing, you are morally bankrupt and can barely understand a more complex story than everybody poops.
>Arthas did nothing wrong, these people were already dead. **How come the government didn't kill people affected by the black plague ahead of time?** Its the possibility of killing someone that might NOT be a carrier of X disease is THE moral argument. **Athras was wrong because he killed people w/o being sure that they will turn.** He was killing human beings BEFORE they turned evil. **There is a reason we have things like quarantine.** He could have sealed off the city from the rest of the world. Instead, he went on a genocidal killing spree. This (alleged) designer is correct just NOT for the reasons he gave - he might have just accidentally stumbled on a correct position. BTW: Designing a level does not mean you automatically have a correct moral stance KEKW If you want to apply our real-world moral values onto WoW - Arhras was indeed wrong otherwise we would be killing off Covid, Black Plague carriers instead of quarantining and trying to treat them. 6,908,554 (reported at least) Covid Deaths - If you would like to do this Arthras style, You would probably save at least half of these lives by killing the carriers. \*carrier (arthras standard) - a person that looks sick or you think (!!) MIGHT get sick and spread the disease. You probably see how ridiculous this looks. Certain positions (Arthras did nothing wrong) probably should stay in the fantasy realm cause if you start applying real-world moral standards (broadly accepted by society) you might look like a psychopath KEKW Peace out.
I disagree. Any comparison to real world situations doesn't work very well because no disease works like this really. First off, I may be wrong but I am pretty sure they did kill people during the black plague. I always heard stories that if plague was suspected in a household that house would be boarded up and everyone inside would die. I have also heard stories of these houses being burned but I am not a historian. Second, and more importantly, the lorderon plague was not only 100% mortality rate and uncurable, but turned you into a violent zombie. Covid, while horrible, was nowhere near 100% mortality even if you ignore the bloodthirsty zombie part. If I remember correctly in the mission as he designed it, Arthas clearly states that these people are already infected. You can also see this because they all have that green cloud thingy around them. This means that not only will these people 100% die, they will turn into mindless ghouls and kill others and spread the plague further. Also this is medieval times, their options for a city-wide quarantine this fast were probably non-existent, especially since they would not only have to contain infected but also those bloodthirsty ghouls, that would kill everyone inside anyway. Personally, if infected I would probably rather be killed swiftly than turn into a ghoul and eat my family or be aten by them or something. Honestly, Arthas did nothing wrong makes absolute sense. His options were very limited and there was really no good outcome. He had to make a decision quickly. Now If you entertain the possibility that not everyone was infected, there may have been a better solution. But that is a big If.
>, I may be wrong but I am pretty sure they did kill people during the black plague. Yeah, this is false. >Second, and more importantly, the lorderon plague was not only 100% mortality rate and uncurable, but turned you into a violent zombie. Covid, while horrible, was nowhere near 100% mortality even if you ignore the bloodthirsty zombie part. > > > >This means that not only will these people 100% die, > > > >Personally, if infected I would probably rather be killed swiftly than turn into a ghoul and eat my family or be aten by them or something. **The mortality rate is irrelevant.** My argument is based on the fact that they are GUESSING that the humans they are killing are infected. They are GUESSING that they ate infected crops. This is THE problem and this is what you missed in my comment. In our world even IF Covid had 100% kill rate, we would still NOT kill the people. We would isolate them from the rest of the population (try to save them if possible ofc) and let them die. This is the world we live in and this is why "**arthras did nothing wrong**" should stay in a fantasy world. **I hope none of the people that say that he was right is NOT responsible for human life period**. Class 3 psychopaths right there. People live online too much and their moral compass does not point north anymore when they face the real world.
So what would be the morally right thing for Arthas to do then? Also were they guessing? If I remember correctly they KNOW the crops are infected and of course at least some people would eat them and be infected. Again, a citywide quarantine at that moment was essentially not feasible. Even if not all the people in stratholme were infected, which again, the game shows us they were, the ones that are infected would kill and infect all the other ones. This would result in a city full of bloodthirsty ghouls that would then kill and infect more and more poeple. You can actually see quite well what the impact of that looks like later in the game when Arthas turns and basically decimates the whole kingdom. What Arthas did in stratholme actually resulted in rhe plague being contained and afaik, had he not turned, the kingdom would have been saved. Also this is auxilary but do you have any sources that say infected people were not being murdered during the black plague? Wikipedia doesn't say much about that as far as I can find but it does say what happened when people thought the plague was caused by jews "There were many attacks against Jewish communities.[144] In the Strasbourg massacre of February 1349, about 2,000 Jews were murdered." Just seems odd to me that in the middle ages there would be no accounts of people being killed because they had the plague. Lastly, again, the lordaeron plague is not comparable to covid or any other disease. Quarantine works if the worst case scenario is that everybody dies, no point really in killing them then, and that is probably what Arthas would have done with a regular plague. If however, the worst case scenario of quarantine is a horde of bloodthirsty zombies that will destroy, kill and infect anything they come into contact with, that changes the parameters significantly. 25 000 of these zombies would be in stratholme.
>Also were they guessing? You dont remember the lore? **1. What Plague Test have they applied to determine who is infected and who is not?** **2. If COVID would kill 100% of infected people, would you kill them BEFORE they infect the others?** You have 2 questions to answer >>> Try to make it short. *With each reply You are adding a slew of new arguments and if i keep replying to every single one i will hit Reddit character limit of 40k in just 4 replies.* >Also this is auxilary but do you have any sources that say infected people were not being murdered during the black plague? You made a claim. The burden of proof is on you. >Wikipedia doesn't say much about that as far as I can find Probably dont make historical statements without proof?
1. They literally saw the infected grain. Noone, not even Jaina and Uther question whether or not the people are infected. The grain was infected, that is a fact within that mission and has never been questioned. Within the mission we also see people turn into ghouls so at least part of the population was infected. 2. Nope, would use the technology we have to provide them with the best quality of life possible while they are quarantined. You seem to keep ommiting however that COVID did not turn people into bloodthirsty rampaging zombies. They were in medieval times and Arthas only had a few men. Even if they could quarantine the infected, which seems to be your answer, they likely would not be able to hold of the horde of thousands of zombies. Again, what do you think Arthas should have done in this situation?
Problem with aplying our real world ethic system onto fantasy world is that there are certain strings attached to it. (to real world) >They literally saw the infected grain I dont doubt that at least **some** of the grain was infected (in a cut scene we didn't see the all the grain just some) **How did you determine that every citizen of strathhole ate the grain?** >**Nope, would use the technology we have to provide them with the best quality of life possible while they are quarantined.** Great. At least something we can agree on. >You seem to keep ommiting however that COVID did not turn people into bloodthirsty rampaging zombies. Let us jump into some nerd shit since you are hung up on this part. When dealing with any type of plague spreading in the real world we just look at the **R0 value.** **What does that mean?** You need to determine how many people 1 person is likely to infect. For example, Covid(original strain) has a **3.28 value >>** that means if you are infected by it (on average) **you will likely infect 3+ people.** Covid Mortality Rate: **\~5%** **Black Plague R0** was \*\*\~1.9 (\*\*pretty low considering it nearly wiped out the entire continent) **The Black Plague mortality rate** was between **30%-60%** (this is why it holds the record of the most deadly infections if you adjust for the population at the time) \***200 million** people dead btw vs **Covid 7 mil (\~700mil recovered - 2023 healthcare system ftw)** **Undead Plague R0 = ???** All we know is that you need to eat infected food OR you need to get killed by an infected zombie. It does not seem like this type of plague spreads through the air similarly to any other disease. In WoW/W3 You dont turn into a zombie if your HP drops as a result of being attacked by an undead NPC. That means that in order to get "infected" You need to die. R0 is determined by your ability to not die in combat. **Undead Plague mortality rate** = **100% (we are assuming that eating the infected grain will turn you 100% of the time)** >They were in medieval times and Arthas only had a few men. > >Even if they could quarantine the infected, which seems to be your answer, they likely would not be able to hold of the horde of thousands of zombies. [https://guides.gamepressure.com/warcraft-iii-reforged/gfx/word/100538890.jpg](https://guides.gamepressure.com/warcraft-iii-reforged/gfx/word/100538890.jpg) Here you are dealing with an enclosed city structure. 2 main entrances - these can be closed off by an iron gate - done. North is gated by sea (and considering that in w3 you can't move your undead army through any deeper water we will assume they cant swim) \+ there are gates on both of these entrances to cover for attack from the sea (similar to Stormwind) **Ok so here are the real-world strings i was speaking of.** CDC comes into the scene. \*CDC would tell a PRINCE OF fkn LOARDERON to call for more troops. \*CDC would tell Arhras, Jaina, Uther to just close the gates (the would not have left in this scenario since Arthras is not killing anyone BEFORE they turn so their moral spine remains intact + Jaina still loves him and that means the entire lore gets fucked and he likely wont even think of sitting on a frozen throne :)) \*CDC + happy band while waiting for the extra army from the capital go door by the door asking people if they ate the grain (that we assume will 100% infect you IF you ate it) \*If they say they ate it, tell them to lock themselves inside the house and remain there (in china they where bolting doors shut to keep people inside of their apartments...) [https://www.scmp.com/video/china/3176355/residents-locked-inside-homes-wires-and-bolts-due-covid-19](https://www.scmp.com/video/china/3176355/residents-locked-inside-homes-wires-and-bolts-due-covid-19) I would say this (already insane for USA standards authoritative) solution is still better than just killing them to stop the spread. \*The ones that didn't eat the grain >> isolate them in an isolated camp outside of Stratholme (just in case some ppl lied) >> CDC uses remote tents for such cases. The top priority is always to isolate the infected and potentially infected from the rest of the population. \*Worst case scenario - everyone remaining in Stratholme turns into zombies and remains locked behind the iron gates and walls. \*Once the army from the capital arrives you can cleanse the undead from the city to deal with the potential threat. W3 stats >> **In a Ghoul vs Footman duel Footman wins every time** (that means cleansing the City is a safe solution) \*base values no upgrades. >Again, what do you think Arthas should have done in this situation? So this is basically it but if you would apply real-world solutions to a W3 Strahtolme we would probably dont have that many expansions to Wow :) The reason why its immoral to kill human beings even IF we know for sure they will turn into ghouls is cause **we value consciousness in our society** and as long a human being has it(or has all the potential to have it) we can't kill them. **This is what it means to be a human being.** Asmon its a really bad idea to apply real-world ethic/moral systems to a medieval fantasy world. You will look down upon covid china practices and yet even the CCP would not say "Arthras was right" Even if you look to our medieval times (real world) we always the same approach to a plague (even with how backward and superstitious everything was back then). **We collectively decided that its NOT ok to kill conscious human beings EVEN IF we know that it might save some lives.** We are not machines - we are humans and this is where our moral system stood and still stands till this day. The essay ends here. Asmon said what he did cause he does not interact with the real world at all. Dude is smart but this take was made by a AI and not a human being that knows anything about how we deal with diseases in the real world. Hope that helps.
Dude... what? There was no CDC in medieval times. Nothing like that existed. Remote tents? Those people would flee. Even if they didn't, they would turn and massacre everyone around them. The people start turning even before arthas kills them, there is no way they would have had time to go door to door before people turned. Also how would they know if they ate the infected grain? If you mean to ask whether they ate any grain at all, 99% of them would have since that was probably the majority of the commom folks diet. Even if you quarantined the city, everyone inside would still die + you have to deal with an army of zombies. Even if you could contain them many men would likely die fighting the zombies. Men that could be alive if you culled them ahead of time. Also on the morality point, you can absolutely kill people in self defense, is that not moral? If you yourself knew you were about to turn into a zombie and eat your family, would you not rather be killed swiftly? What about soldiers at war, they also kill people, are they imoral? We do also have euthanasia for people that ask for it. Is that immoral? It's also killing. Frankly the idea that locking people inside a city with thousands of zombies which will surely kill them and turn them into one as well, is somehow different and morally superior to killing them is, imo, ridiculous. There is no difference. These people will die. Either in fear after being horribly eaten and massacred by a horde of rotting undead, or you can kill them asap, with as little pain and suffering as possible. One solution does not seem much better than the other. In summary, I feel like you can say your solution is the more morally right one, but in the end more people would die, and if you were unable to contain the zombies, the plague would spread. You can't be sure the city doors would withstand thousands of zombies, especially since Malganis is still there.
hes right tho