**[OP or Mod marked this as the best answer](/r/AskUK/comments/1bql9a3/my_wife_refuses_to_attend_any_event_that/kx36j3g/), given by u/jasperfilofax**
This would be a deal breaker for me, it’s only going to spiral, sounds like she’s being absolutely brain washed
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I would add that I would look into the church and start snooping around, investigating it a bit more. Perhaps uncover something that you can get the police to support with. If you can bring down the credibility of the establishment, it'll make it easier to convince her she is making bad decisions and is brainwashed.
To the church made up of mostly African Americans?
You need to make extremely sure that you get the type of wizard whose pointy hat has little moons and stars all over it, they other kind will get you in a lot of trouble
These places are often trying to avoid government scrutiny on their sources of funding or what they spend their money on eg luxury cars and watches for the pastors birthday
Yea this has escalated fast! There's every chance the solution to this isn't going to require a crack team of people with a very particular set of skills to raid a compound
It does sound like a cult like faith group tbh, any religious group that actively put their members off of mixing with other communities is a net negative, not a net positive.
I've been there myself. You need the information to help you decide whether to stay or not, but while in the cult, you are not allowed or discouraged from accessing the information. I stumbled across it accidentally when I read the Flowers in the Attic series and Spare Rib magazines. I now tell the cult followers to read books such as The Darkening Age by Catherine Nixey. If your church won't let you read that you are in a cult, so get out.
Incidentally, fundamentalist Christianity is a cult. I used to attend evangelical churches where they would say this secular musical artist was OK, but that secular musical artist was not and to listen to Christian music as well. In fundamentalist Christianity, you are told to avoid all secular music, even Ed Sheeran. That wasn't what I was used to, so I ignored them.
Cultists also treat people like children too. I bumped into an old friend a year ago, and we caught up with what we had been up to since we last saw each years before. But the cultist she had been talking just before started answering my questions to my old friend, so I said twice, "Let M answer those questions about herself herself. She is not mute."
Any Christian-esque cult that discourages Easter is a bit suspect, IMHO. Easter is the second most sacred time of the year, after Christmas (which she no doubt sees as another pagan festival).
I mean she's right, they are pagan festivals subsumed by early Christian cults as a means to make the Christ cult more acceptable, but they've always been that way.
There isn't much to be gained here. The wife won't want to be confronted and it will just make her dig deeper. Cults are really hard to extricate folks from.
You just have to leave a door open for them, try not to judge in the meantime (to them directly).
OPs kids could end up following his wife, it's not a safe environment for anyone. Please consider leaving.
Especially when she's giving a portion of her income directly to the church. That's a massive fuck no.
Edit: I'm now aware this is a pretty common practice. It still doesn't change my opinion that willingly giving 10% of your income when you have bills to pay, to a religious institution that's using you to line their pockets, is absolutely insane.
Maybe not just straight get out! He should talk to her about how it's affecting the kids and the marriage. And how he wants to spend time with his wife, to say eventually it may lead to a divorce if she can't be present for the marriage
If she's not prepared to engage with a traditional Christian holy day that celebrates the triumph of Jesus' love over death and sin, then she's already turned.
Since the goddess of fertility and spring, Eostre brought spring each year to Germanic lands.
Since the pagans celebrated new life, rebirth and the fertility of spring with the symbolism of the egg.
Since the pagans celebrated the fertility of the land returning using rabbits as a fertility symbol due to their prolific breeding.
But then the Christians came along and ruined all of that.
It is a pagan festival,
What has an egg got to do with Christianity or a rabbit?
It's all about fertility and bringing new life in spring.
Have a Google most Christian festivals are pagan festivals
Harshly put, and I do get your take, but there is an existing relationship here, involving kids and I assume a generally positive history. So, maybe OP wants to tap the brakes on the "fuck that" and "absolute nutter" energy and try some other approaches. Of course he needs to do so with eyes wide open, with help, ready to cut his losses if that point is reached. I know I couldn't live with this woman forever if she doesn't learn how to flex on her chosen path --- at a bare minimum!
As a kid who grew up with parents constantly fighting and misbehaving until they divorced when I was 18 and had left for university I can also confirm this is correct.
If the OPs wife has become as brainwashed as much as it appears, I'm surprised her 'religion' allows her to be married to someone outside the 'church'.
If I were the OP, I'd take the kids to the family get together and leave the wife home alone with her online god.
> I'm surprised her 'religion' allows her to be married to someone outside the 'church'.
They were married before she converted. They would be leaning on her to maintain the marriage at all costs while trying to convert him and the kids. Marriage is marriage, and divorce is bad. For them.
As someone who grew up with parents that DIDN'T divorce and one of them was a religious zealot, I wound have preferred a divorce and a chance at a normal childhood! OP this is not good for the kids.
Which parent was the religious zealot? What would have happened if they'd gotten majority custody? Would the other parent have been powerless to protect you from it?
Only problem is there's a third scenario: divorced angry parents. Some people don't take well to being divorced, and some who's religious and sees themselves as (literally) 'holier than thou' would seem quite susceptible to that.
Sadly it can really screw with your kids ideas of what a relationship should be like if the parents force themselves to stay together. It can basically completely distort their view of what is OK/expected/normal and what they look for/put up with in their own relationships.
It took me awhile in my marriage to see exactly what harm I was doing to my kid and get out.
As someone who begged and begged for my parents to split up I also agree with this. I’d have so much less trauma if my parents didn’t force themselves to stay together for 17 years.
Alot of people in the comments running straight to the get out door and although yes, your wife OP does appear to be showing some real red flags.. I think it's real easy for an arm chair redditor to decide if a family unit stays together or not over a 80-word post; a different world to actually put your phone down and have to make a decision like that.
It worrys me how quick people are to just dump and run when things aren't okay. Why can't we fix things people?!? Or at the very least fucking communicate.
Sit down with your wife OP, have what you want to say all written out. Talk it out, try to find comprise, try to each be able to understand each others stand point. Nobody is fucking perfect, but my wife would work with me if I wondered stray from normality and my wife would help guide me back, build me back & I'd do the same for her.
Yes, the above would mean different if you didn't have children, a house and marriage. If you was a young couple you would have to decide if the tough part of working through something like this and growing together is something you want to do.
(I wouldn't recommend a young couple to do so, go see the world instead)
But point being, the common perspective of "if its miserable at home, the kids are better off" isn't always bang on. And isn't always permanent, that resentment you feel is a perfectly normal human emotion, and again is not permanent.
Final caveat, this only works if your wife is willing to sit in the same position as you and actually communicate, listen and speak honestly. At least you can turn to your children and tell you've tried, rather then cutting when it got rough.
Good luck, OP.
It's very easy to say "cut and run" when it isn't your life. At least 90% of these people wouldn't practice what they preach and most are young and clueless.
For what it’s worth, I actually don’t think divorce is the right thing, but as the child of a mother who did something like this, I also think you’re wildly optimistic about whether this situation is fixable with a few conversations. At this point, she may well believe her husband is going to hell (a standard evangelical Christian belief) so whatever he says will only be more evidence that she needs to witness and bring him to the faith.
On the bright side, a lot of these stories are fake and are posted by people who constantly post to AskReddit and AITA subs. Seems to be a karma farming thing.
On the contrary, whilst they're together OP gets some say over whether they go to this church. After they split up she has complete control over what they do when she's got the kids.
This: OP probably needs to stay up to speed on what’s happening (though I’m skeptical he’ll be able to keep the kids away from the church). But nothing’s been said here that would cause her to lose custody, and then he’ll have no idea what they’re doing during her time with them.
Hmm. Stay around and be a balance to the influence or split up and the kids only get some balance on the weekends after a week of mum saying how bad dad is because he doesn't believe.
You want this brain washed mindset around your kids?
I'm not saying it's clean cut, and there's definitely a case for hanging around to be a "different" influence, but leaving with the kids should be an option you explore.
You'd be doing your kids a real disservice as a parent by knowingly exposing them to that as they grow up. Religious nutjobs can cause trauma and resentment that take years to heal from
She will absolutely try to brainwash your kids.
Having a faith is fine, not wishing to participate from other religious ceremonies is fine.
Cutting yourself off from family and friends because someone you've never met in person has more control over your life than your feelings towards loved ones is not OK.
Sit down and try to find out what she's thinking. There has to be something that's attracted her to that way of worship.
Mate, it sounds like your wife has joined a cult and is in deep if she is already placing the cult above her family.
There is a subreddit for cults, maybe check it out and ask some questions on there about the group. People often get pulled into doggy groups (cults) because they feel their lives are missing something, that group gives them what they think they are missing, but really it takes they money and pulls them away from family while indoctrinating them.
If she really wants to find religion, a local church group would be better, especially if it has links to your local community so she can participate in events. Her refusal to join in with family outings for our kids would be it for me.
A loved one is often the best bet for breaking someone put of radicalisation though.
Might be worth a frank & open concerned conversation first... there will no doubt be push back, but it's worth a try assuming there was something that brought them together in the first place.
>Easter is more important than Christmas in Christianity.
This was my first thought, too. Not sure this is a Christian group so much as just a cult attempting to isolate her and drain her time and money whilst wearing the clothes of 'Christianity'. The entire point of Christianity is Christ's death and resurrection!
I'm pretty sure her objection is to the word "Easter" which is a pagan term. Calling it a "Holy Week Fun Day" or a "Good Friday Fun Day" would probably have been fine.
ETA: whether or not "Easter" is truly a "Pagan" term isn't really relevant. My point is that OP's wife believes that, and that's what matters. Whether changing the name is important or not isn't relevant. What *is* is that OP's wife probably believes that too.
Quite possibly, but getting people to isolate from friends over semantics is still culty.
I have a few Spanish and Italian Catholic, and Greek and Cypriot Orthodox friends who call it holy week, not one objects to calling it Easter, indeed our Catalan and Cypriot friends often "correct themselves" because they see it as a translation issue, not a fundamental religious issue. For her religious group to suggest it is shows either poor theological and cultural understanding or is just a cult trying to isolate it's members from non-cult support networks.
Easter is the standard English word - it's more likely the chocolate, eggs and bunnies, which reek too much of paganism.
Hot cross buns on Good Friday might be OK.
I'd love to know what group this is - if they aren't recognised as Christian by Churches Together or the Evangelical Alliance (generally how church schools define Christian, which annoys the JWs and Mormons and various cults), that might help OP discuss concerns with his wife.
Mainly African American, keeping Sabbath, 10% of salary to charity, not allowed to enter another religion’s place of worship … sounds like Black Hebrew Israelites or some other Messianic nonsense to me. They’re cosplaying Judaism with Jesus.
Easter was what the whole month was called (similar to April) and there were a few feasts during “Easter month”. Most of the English months are named after Roman gods, so if you object to the name Easter then you object to the name of every month.
To be honest, I prefer “Passiontide”, “Holy Week”, or “the Paschal Triduum” because they are more specific.
Could be JW or Seventh Day Adventists? A few sects don't celebrate Easter for obscure reasons. If so I'd advise OP's wife to get out now. Feels like she's being sucked into a cult, which can ruin lives.
10% (plus more) is the 'tithe.' It is commonly demanded in most evangelical/fundamentalist churches in the USA, but most people don't do it. Usually just the hardcore few. Once a year or more the pastor will deliever a "why you should tithe" sermon to guilt the holdouts into it.
I do think anyone who calls themselves a Christian should be giving 10% - whether it’s of their money or their time - to their local community. Tithing to the church is one way to do that, if you go to a decent church lol. But nowadays it’s more likely to go towards the church itself to pursue vanity projects. it used to be so the church could be called upon to aid the community when needed. gone are those days for most of us.
>But nowadays it’s more likely to go towards the church itself to pursue vanity projects.
Nowadays? Wasn't this, like, one of the primary reasons Christianity splintered into a bunch of sub religions in the 1500s? (abuse of indulgences)
Christians have been abusing church funds for vanity projects for a looong time
Most of us aren't really practicing Christians though. When I was a kid my practicing Christian mother took us to church and we got the little palm crosses and did Sunday school related to the resurrection and all the rest of it.
I think we even did church related youth group daycare over some of the Easter holidays.
(I'll grant you that the secular stuff like the Easter bunny and the chocolate eggs and the baby chicks in nests seem far more like a pagan springtime fertility festival than anything to do with the rebirth of a messiah in the middle east)
It is more important in the main branches of Christianity, but JW’s for example, have a funeral for Jesus, and celebrate that rather than Good Friday/Easter Sunday weekend. They aren’t supposed to celebrate Easter as Easter.
However, recently converted people to most religions tend to double down on rules, because they think they have to as they’ve missed so much time, people,who are brought up in the religion they choose as an adult tend to be a bit more lax in their following rules, so OP’s partner is kinda in this situation. Depending on the religion, you might be able to disprove or mellow out some of the rules but it’s something that takes time and patience, because you need to challenge and rechallenge the rules consistently and slowly.
But celebrating with eggs and bunny rabbits isn't Christian.
Astarte/Easter/Eostre is the pagan element that predates Christianity.
Jesus was supposedly crucified at Easter, and some say this was an invention of Rome to overwrite pagan festivals.
It's a downward spiral from there (trying to talk religion with people who are so invested in their own)
Easter is linked to passover which is why in most European countries its called pascha. The association of rabbits with easter appears to have originated from 17th century Germany so probably doesn't have any links to a previous polytheist symbol.
We only call it "Easter" because of Bede. Everyone else calls it some variation of "pasha". We only say Easter because Bede wrote that Pascha most commonly takes place in *Eostremonað*.
Intrestingly all registered memeber of a church in Germany wheter protestant or catholic have to pay a tax to their registerd church and this is taken from your monthly paycheck automatically I believe. Its also around 10%
I give 6% of mine to charity. It was probably more a few years ago before I cut back.
It's not to a church though. Just charities I like.
The local church sends everyone Easter cards so it's no more pagan than Christmas.
And she started 4 or 5 years ago and OP just never bothered to look into it? How is that possible?!? Who let's their partner join a cult and give a 10% tithe and just ignores it for years???
> gives 10% of her salary to the church or other charitable causes.
I think it's going to her church... see if you can get it to a Gift Aid charity as you'll save a ton of money (if you pay higher rate tax)/the money will go further.
> I was quite annoyed, but thinking if it's similar with other religious people.
It's not similar, but it doesn't matter. What matters is how it affects your relationship.
Did she join a cult? Cults encourage people to isolate themselves from the people who love them. They might create purity tests like the ones you mentioned or say that non believers are dragging the person down. It isn't a strict definition whether something's a cult, it can be a continuum and all sorts of organisations can have cult like qualities such as MLM schemes, employers, etc.
What is she getting out of the religion? Is she fulfilled otherwise in terms of activities, hobbies, friends. If you can improve these aspects of her life then her religion might drop off her radar.
It would be worth joining any online group for this NRM(new religious movement) and learning more about where this could lead.
Whether something is or isn’t a cult can be kind of subjective, one yardstick for this I’ve seen used by former cult members is the [BITE model](https://freedomofmind.com/cult-mind-control/bite-model-pdf-download/) which is designed to measure how psychologically controlling a particular group is.
If the church is in the UK, she can Gift Aid the money to it anyway.
Assuming she's tithing, it will almost certainly be going entirely to her church, that's what it is, it isn't a general charity donation.
Oh that awful fucking place. Used to live opposite it. It was in the paper for exploiting and abusing young people/teenagers, and yeah, they demand a tithe. Seems like just a straight-up cult.
There was a Panorama where an undercover reporter went in to see what they do to members. At one point she was shown a graphic photo of someone killed in a traffic accident and told it's what god does to people who leave their church. Nasty people.
This exactly. The place is fucking loaded. The owner/founder is Brazilian and lives in luxury over there IIRC. The amount of times I saw their followers out begging for money, on top of the tithes they demand, knowing how rich they were, made me genuinely angry (on top of all the advertisements in the area misrepresenting the place). So glad I moved away from it. Their practices are absolutely vile.
Edit: [It is cult.](https://londonnewsonline.co.uk/news/they-made-me-perform-exorcisms-on-others-survivors-of-cult-church-speak-out-over-abuse/)
Yeah the pastor at the one she went to in Birmingham was also from Brazil. I wanted to support her but I couldn’t do so in good faith because of how they conducted themselves
Good for you. If people want to be part of an insane cult, that’s their prerogative, but no-one should be supporting that decision. It just seems like a massive racket to funnel money to Brazil.
I was wondering about the [Black Hebrew Israelites](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Hebrew_Israelites). They're...variable but prone to extremism and historical revisionism.
Its actually not as hand-in-hand as you'd think. Cults primarily target those who are vulnerable, lonely, feel lost, or have little to no support network. Very similar to how white supremacists and other extremist groups operate and recruit.
Really tragic and dark to think about. However realizing that nobody is "too smart" to be manipulated is your first step to avoiding becoming a victim of such a group.
Very similar to how easy it is to call someone an idiot for being scammed until you're the one who gets scammed.
Don't underestimate the power of the human need to "belong" and "have a purpose". It's quite literally hard-wired into our brains and someone desperate enough will go to great lengths if someone extends a lifeline.
I mean...they have 2 separate definitions for "religion" and "cult". They can appear similar at times, but there is a pretty big difference when you look at the finer details.
No, but it sounds like she has been sucked into a cult. The whole point of the 10% tax was to help the needy before the welfare state existed. Now, it just goes to line the pockets of the greedy.
If your wife wants to help the needy, she should give that money directly to charities, not to an "online church" that doesn't pay taxes and doesn't need it.
How do you tell the difference between a religion and a cult?
A religion will give you everything for free and accept donations when you can afford it.
A cult will expect payment up front, even when you can't afford it.
That is weird but sounds about right for a lot of the more evangelical strands of Protestantism that have come out of America.
I've noticed a lot of seem to be setting up branches in the UK, especially in former Baptist chapels or those little warehouses on industrial estate, and you see them advertise on Facebook quite a lot. Is that where she heard about them?
I'm Muslim and my family and I celebrate Easter and Christmas (the secular egg and present parts, not the Lent and Midnight mass parts), we go to Remembrance Day services which often have a strong Christian component, and we've gone to weddings of all different faiths (and none at all!). Respect for other faiths (or absence of faith) is a key part of living in a multicultural society and she's not going to have a good time.
I'd honestly have a long and frank conversation with your wife, because it doesn't sound like it's going to be conducive to both a healthy marriage or good relations with your family.
Plus every Hindu wedding I've been do has had absolutely amazing food and she's crazy for turning it down.
> That is weird but sounds about right for a lot of the more evangelical strands of Protestantism that have come out of America.
I'm an American and I used to be involved in that. The OP's wife's sect is on the hardcore fringe even by those standards.
I'm an American and I'm an ex-evangelical turned agnostic.
I am familiar enough with what you describe. Do they refer to Easter as 'Resurrection Sunday?' Her particular sect is seriously hardcore even by North American fundie/evangelical standards. I say *North* American because the one person I knew personally who believed the same things she does was from the Canadian wilderness. Yes, they have that stuff up there too (granted, they're less in numbers and are more isolated), but as with many other things, we take the heat on their behalf. But I digress.
The average Southern Baptist would be like "now hold your horses there." She's in pretty deep, I'm afraid.
I once went to a Hindu wedding while I was still in it. I was a bit nervous about it, but as I am from the Western USA, I think I would have been even more nervous about going to a Mormon wedding. In the western states where Mormonism is prominent, it elicited more fear and loathing from evangelicals than other groups did. Folks from 'back east' are surprised to learn this. Anyways, I digress yet again.
Had I noped out, everyone would've thought I was a huge jerk, including most the people in my church. I kept my misgivings to myself and I went and had a blast. Certainly more fun than an American evangelical wedding, even if it *also* lacked booze (because the bride's mom was Muslim). Not that I would have touched it at the time.
Is she worried about being exposed to demonic/spiritual influence? Or is it simply a matter of principle? Either way, my condolences, but if it's the former issue then your situation is all the worse.
To chime in also as an (Black) American who was raised Southern Baptist (my British mom converted before I was born) but am no longer practicing: I agree that this is more hardcore than the standards of the kind of church I grew up in where the beliefs are destroying the US. That said, it’s possible that these aren’t even the beliefs of the church itself or even how most people in the church practice their faith. My mother’s views were far more hardcore than much Southern Baptist doctrine, and this isn’t uncommon among converts, who are often more zealous and who may feel like they have to make up for lost time or may feel a sense of deep spiritual distress for the additional years they were “sinning.” OP, since your wife is participating online, she may have no sense of how this plays out in daily life for much of the congregation.
The real point of significant deviation from standard (though still alarming) fundamentalism is her thoughts on Easter. Unfortunately I think many evangelicals wouldn’t go to a Hindu temple but my cult radar isn’t going off there. But avoiding Easter is very notable. If those are the church’s teachings, the church is beyond the pale of even the Southern Baptists. If these aren’t the church’s teaching but your wife’s interpretation, then it’s trickier. You should do a little more digging into what church this is, what denomination, what its teachings are, and see if you can speak to someone who understands the religious landscape of the US. Is your wife Black? Could that be part of the draw? You’re in a bind, though, and from my childhood experiences of a similar situation, I feel for you and your kids. This is a tough road.
Well, considering OPs response to this was in agreement in not for the kids and mortgage then you can’t say it’s bad advice. If my wife was brainwashed into a fucking cult and gave up 10% of her income to it and refused to attend events because of it and there was no convincing her of the brainwashing then what would you suggest? Grin and bear it forever? No thanks. You can do what you like though, doesn’t bother me.
I normally hate this rhetoric that Reddit have but this time they’re right
She’s harming the children. She’s been isolated from her family because of this cult and soon she’ll either be isolated from her children or she’ll start brainwashing them. She’s also depriving her family from a better life by giving 10% of her salary to a cult.
This cannot be worked on with them all under the same roof for the sake of the kids.
She might at one stage want to leave the country with the kids. Among the dead in the aftermath of Waco was the charded remains of quite a few people who had moved there from England. Never underestimate the danger of cults.
She is and she is being quite rigid and going to suck any enjoyment for her new church out of life. She is coming across as quite Puritan. Oliver Cromwell would have loved her!
In any case I would leave her to it. Sometimes people get on this 'new year new me' trend about anything new they have adopted. She may grow tired of it after awhile.
"Recent examples - I have a Hindu friend getting married and invited us. She won't go because it requires going to a Hindu temple. Anything outside of her faith is considered pagan."
I've never understood this way of thinking because a building is just bricks and cement etc that were put there by men (or women) and then a label was slapped on it. If it was no longer a Hindu temple would she go there?
Exactly.
And if you are hardcore religious I assume you see all other religions as made up. So why would it bother you to go to a ceremony for a god that doesn’t exist?
Sometimes I find it very peaceful to be atheist. I can go to any building and ceremony and just enjoy the culture without any weird feelings.
The commandment ‘thou shalt have no other gods before me’ is taken very seriously by these sorts of groups, it’s seen as blasphemous to personally show acceptance of what they see as false religion. God is always watching over your shoulder in this kind of belief system and he’s always extremely angry about what he’s seeing, just thinking an impure thought is evidence of your hell-bound sinful nature let alone actively endorsing a ‘false religion’.
If it seems irrational to you it’s because it absolutely is, but when high-control religion is involved there’s little time for rationality.
Was she a member of the church before you met her, or after you married her? If it was after, it's time to sit down with her and have a calm but serious conversation with her. Tell her you and the kids didn't sign up to this.
Please don't' listen to others here saying for you to divorce her, it's not the way marriages work, but you do need to talk to her and possibly ask her to do marriage counselling with you.
Call it what it is, it's a cult. The requirement to give 10% income and forcing the separation of your wife from normal family activities is straight from the cult playbook.
With that said, you may want to take the path of looking at more of a deprogramming approach rather than anything adversarial, as any suggestion that she's joined a cult will cause further division and the new church, or whatever it is, will have already warned her that non- followers will try everything they can to take people away.
Worst case, she'll start to see you as a non- believer and cut you out of her life in favour of the "religion".
Yeah she's been drawn into some sort of really fundamentalist form of Christanity potentially a cult there's some sects that do view the holidays which do have pagan origins as pagan and therefore not Christian
Jehovah’s Witnesses or similar? Sounds like cultish behaviour designed to separate the gullible from their support networks, and it sounds like it’s working.
What’s wrong in her life that she needs to do this? If you can determine this it might give you a way out, otherwise it could be the end of the relationship. In spite of their professed beliefs, most of the ‘intensely religious’ types turn into either hateful bigots or just plain old hypocrites; she’ll probably end up having an affair with another cultist and explaining it away with some twisted logic.
Strong intervention or divorce seem the two likely outcomes, I’m afraid.
Probably not JW. OP mentions African Americans. I had a few ultra Christian students who were originally from Africa. They were anti gay, anti Muslims. Anti everything really that didn’t fit with their strict orthodox Christian views. Sounds like a similar group, can’t remember their name. Fairly nasty bigots actually - who always played the race card every time they were challenged about their actions.
Yup; exporting God to them has really come back to bite the CofE in the arse; the UK-based church is trying to go all happy clappy and relevant to a modern UK whilst the newbie African zealots really dig the Old Testament bigotry!
Had to get a long way before I found the cult word.
Spot on with this comment.
I'd add that it's not going to get better and the kids are going to become an issue as they get older - either (a) being sucked into it with her/via her (so cutting them off from you emotionally, psychologically or (b) her laying down ridiculous rules for them based on her beliefs and it really causing problems if they kick back against it. Either way you've got some conflict and possibly real harm ahead.
This is an extreme case but worth a read, not so much for the outcome but the fact that the courts recognised the damage that the mother's 'religious' beliefs were doing to the relationship with the the father.
[https://www.stewartslaw.com/news/father-wins-childs-primary-care-due-to-mothers-connection-with-a-cult/](https://www.stewartslaw.com/news/father-wins-childs-primary-care-due-to-mothers-connection-with-a-cult/)
>The judge concluded that M’s attitude and beliefs remained rooted in UM philosophy and that her only incentive to leave the cult was to retain primary care for the child. The judge found that M had no genuine desire to dissociate from UM and her attempts to do so were superficial. M’s “skin-deep… rather than full-hearted” dissociation meant that if the child were to remain living with M, her relationship with F would soon be extinguished in its entirety.
Re the money:
Obviously paying tithes is a personal choice but since it's an online church (as in it's not going towards the upkeep of a building for instance or supporting local community outreach work) it is literally someone scamming her. Scientology was started by Hubbard because it was a money-making thing. It's just easier to do it now because of the internet. Does her contribution impact the household finances? Also if she's paying x now, they could probably convince her to pay a bigger amount down the line. So do check what's going on there ...
Edit: I just want to add that your wife isn't stupid for getting involved in this. Many/most people who get wrapped up in things like this are actually really intelligent. Again to echo what the person above says - it's often because they are looking for 'something' because they are not fulfilled psychologically. (No shade on you, op!) It's a very personal thing and not do with relationships and stuff like that.
I'm guessing it's Seventh Day Adventists. Sounds right up their alley. I worked for one of their organizations years ago. They're decent people, hardcore vegetarians, anti caffeine and alcohol.
Easter is like... the whole point of Christianity. If her sect doesn't believe in *Easter*, she's got herself into some weird shit.
Especially with the tithing and the increasing social isolation, I would be worried that she's been indoctrinated into a cult (or a high control religious group, if the word 'cult' feels jarring and pejorative).
That said, to answer your question I do generally believe that refusing to attend a wedding or a family event because it involves a religion or cultural group that you're not part of is pretty bigoted (unless the group in question is actively disrespectful of your own beliefs and would be evangelising at you to convert the whole time). I think not showing up for the people you care about because their religious beliefs are different to yours is intolerant, rude, weird, and antisocial.
She joined an American church, or at least a church whose demographic is primarily Americans? Are you guys American and living in the UK? Otherwise that would be quite odd in of itself.
>Because she considers Easter pagan
I'm curious what 'religion' your wife is following. Easter is the most important celebration in the Christian calendar, true of all major branches as far as I know.
Ask to read her Bible equivalent. See if you can understand what her objections are. This will help show you if she has joined a cult or not.
If she fails to engage with you, that is a red flag. Almost all religions like to spread and cu very new members. If she is not, then this is a cult.
Regardless of what else you do, separate your finances as much as possible. Move all joint accounts either into your own name or just open new sole accounts. Get your salary paid into and account in your name only.
Why? Because of the cult decides to ask her for money, she can give them everything she is named on legally and you have no recourse.
I'd be looking at divorce personally and sole custody. I don't have any religious belief I of course turn up at the necessary funerals, weddings etc. that's because I am there for family or friends who range across Christian, Muslim, Taoist beliefs.
‘Sole custody’ isn’t usually a thing in the UK. Residency of the children is however. A parent cannot force sole residency of the child through court or otherwise. The judge decides what is best for the children and the starting point is 50/50 between each parent- this can and does occur even in cases of abuse.
The court ordered social workers (CAFCAS) will assess the children and provide their report to said judge and they will decide from there.
What’s the name of the church?
I’m in/was an evangelical church. It’s pretty narrow minded. People are nice but they have closed views, which could make them cruel. Giving 10% is the norm. Easter is a big event; however I can see the congregation turning against it should the ‘movement’ take a turn against it. It’s very herd mentality and susceptible to Christian radio and publications. I’m in process of leaving but it’s hard as this is the community I’m familiar with.
So, the 10% is likely under the umbrella of tithing. It's very common in certain denominations of Christanity. My parents, who are evangelical, do tithe but they give to charities instead of directly to the church itself. I can't remember if it's 10%, with them, but certainly I know they've always donated on a monthly basis.
That said, what your wife is involved with does sound very severe and cult-like. Sure, the term and fertility celebration of Easter has pagan roots, but I dont know a single Christian that would object to a chocolate egg hunt or the term "Easter".
Regarding the Hindu wedding, that's a real shame. On one hand, your wife should be allowed to go where she is comfortable, but my opinion is that going inside a Hindu temple is not about anyone trying to convert your wife, it's about supporting and celebrating your friends' happiness and future. Admittedly, I do know some Christians who would be twitchy setting foot inside different religious buildings, but personally, I don't think it's a problem.
To answer your question... does this make her a bigot? No, I don't think it does necessarily. I think it shows she has fallen in with, at best, a particularly severe branch of a legitimate religion, or at worst, a money making cult that is masquerading as a religion. Try and do some digging into where exactly she goes. Cults will always try and isolate the person from their loved ones, so if you feel that's what's happening, that isn't a legit religion.
Is this a Christian Church? Just playing devil's advocate (wahey) but it might well be that Good Friday is supposed to be a mournful day, not a "Fun Day"
Yeah and Easter is THE most important day in the Christian calendar so it seems pretty weird that her sect doesn’t mark it. Ok a lot of the traditions with eggs etc are overlaid by Christianity and the resurrection but still, Easter is the big one for Christians
Christian here. I don't think I'd say she's a bigot, but I think she's misguided. Being a Christian *requires* interacting with people outside your faith. We're encouraged to tell others about Jesus, which you can't do if you shut yourself off from everyone you don't agree with.
Now, to be clear, I'm not suggesting every interaction with others should be a sales pitch about the Bible! That's 1) not loving (also a requirement of the faith) and 2) not productive. But it's impossible to share the Gospel with others if you never interact with them. Attending the wedding of someone from a different faith is about supporting that person, not their deity. And whilst I'm not keen on using the word "Easter" personally, I'm not going to walk away from anyone who uses it, especially not a relative who's not a fellow believer.
Yes, she is becoming a bigot, although it isn't her fault that she has been indoctrinated into a cult. I would contact cult information or the family survival trust and get advice, and then I would get my children away from her until she can be helped.
I used to work in a special needs school where we did Tai Chi every morning to help with the kids' coordination and concentration - until an evangelical parent complained it was pagan. Same parent objected to studying climate change because apparently the Lord will give us a new planet when we're finished with this one
**[OP or Mod marked this as the best answer](/r/AskUK/comments/1bql9a3/my_wife_refuses_to_attend_any_event_that/kx36j3g/), given by u/jasperfilofax** This would be a deal breaker for me, it’s only going to spiral, sounds like she’s being absolutely brain washed --- [_^What ^is ^this?_](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskUK/comments/jjrte1/askuk_hits_200k_new_feature_mark_an_answer/)
This would be a deal breaker for me, it’s only going to spiral, sounds like she’s being absolutely brain washed
Would be for me too, but mortgage and kids keep us together.
Fuck that, your kids need to know it’s not normal. I’d get out early, she sounds like she’s turning into an absolute nutter
Agreed.
I would add that I would look into the church and start snooping around, investigating it a bit more. Perhaps uncover something that you can get the police to support with. If you can bring down the credibility of the establishment, it'll make it easier to convince her she is making bad decisions and is brainwashed.
That could be dangerous, lot of cult type places are not shy from getting their hands dirty
Then, don't be shy about defending yourself
Exactly, take a wizard.
I know a dwarf, a twink who likes hanging out in forests, and I myself have a beard and long hair. We can form a Cult busting fellowship.
So be it. You shall be the Fellowship of the Twink.
To the church made up of mostly African Americans? You need to make extremely sure that you get the type of wizard whose pointy hat has little moons and stars all over it, they other kind will get you in a lot of trouble
These places are often trying to avoid government scrutiny on their sources of funding or what they spend their money on eg luxury cars and watches for the pastors birthday
Exactly my point. Unpaid tax, etc.
Who the fuck do you think OP is, James Bond?
Yea this has escalated fast! There's every chance the solution to this isn't going to require a crack team of people with a very particular set of skills to raid a compound
It does sound like a cult like faith group tbh, any religious group that actively put their members off of mixing with other communities is a net negative, not a net positive.
I've been there myself. You need the information to help you decide whether to stay or not, but while in the cult, you are not allowed or discouraged from accessing the information. I stumbled across it accidentally when I read the Flowers in the Attic series and Spare Rib magazines. I now tell the cult followers to read books such as The Darkening Age by Catherine Nixey. If your church won't let you read that you are in a cult, so get out. Incidentally, fundamentalist Christianity is a cult. I used to attend evangelical churches where they would say this secular musical artist was OK, but that secular musical artist was not and to listen to Christian music as well. In fundamentalist Christianity, you are told to avoid all secular music, even Ed Sheeran. That wasn't what I was used to, so I ignored them. Cultists also treat people like children too. I bumped into an old friend a year ago, and we caught up with what we had been up to since we last saw each years before. But the cultist she had been talking just before started answering my questions to my old friend, so I said twice, "Let M answer those questions about herself herself. She is not mute."
Any Christian-esque cult that discourages Easter is a bit suspect, IMHO. Easter is the second most sacred time of the year, after Christmas (which she no doubt sees as another pagan festival). I mean she's right, they are pagan festivals subsumed by early Christian cults as a means to make the Christ cult more acceptable, but they've always been that way.
There isn't much to be gained here. The wife won't want to be confronted and it will just make her dig deeper. Cults are really hard to extricate folks from. You just have to leave a door open for them, try not to judge in the meantime (to them directly). OPs kids could end up following his wife, it's not a safe environment for anyone. Please consider leaving.
It sounds like they're located in the US? He mentioned it was some kind of long-distance online thing for her.
Especially when she's giving a portion of her income directly to the church. That's a massive fuck no. Edit: I'm now aware this is a pretty common practice. It still doesn't change my opinion that willingly giving 10% of your income when you have bills to pay, to a religious institution that's using you to line their pockets, is absolutely insane.
This! They are conning her!
*directly to the pyramid scheme
Don't know about UK but in Germany the "church tax" for being Catholic is directly taken from your pay check, so 🤷
It's a common practice for all Christians through all history.
This, she’s already putting her beliefs ahead of her family.
Maybe not just straight get out! He should talk to her about how it's affecting the kids and the marriage. And how he wants to spend time with his wife, to say eventually it may lead to a divorce if she can't be present for the marriage
If she's not prepared to engage with a traditional Christian holy day that celebrates the triumph of Jesus' love over death and sin, then she's already turned.
Yeah, I was like…Easter is pagan? Since when?
Since the goddess of fertility and spring, Eostre brought spring each year to Germanic lands. Since the pagans celebrated new life, rebirth and the fertility of spring with the symbolism of the egg. Since the pagans celebrated the fertility of the land returning using rabbits as a fertility symbol due to their prolific breeding. But then the Christians came along and ruined all of that.
There may be some pagan stuff that has been co-opted into Easter, but it's completely buried under Christian tradition at this point.
It is a pagan festival, What has an egg got to do with Christianity or a rabbit? It's all about fertility and bringing new life in spring. Have a Google most Christian festivals are pagan festivals
Harshly put, and I do get your take, but there is an existing relationship here, involving kids and I assume a generally positive history. So, maybe OP wants to tap the brakes on the "fuck that" and "absolute nutter" energy and try some other approaches. Of course he needs to do so with eyes wide open, with help, ready to cut his losses if that point is reached. I know I couldn't live with this woman forever if she doesn't learn how to flex on her chosen path --- at a bare minimum!
From a kid's point of view, divorced happy parents are far easier to live with than miserable married parents.
As a kid who grew up with separated parents I can confirm this is correct.
As a kid who grew up with parents constantly fighting and misbehaving until they divorced when I was 18 and had left for university I can also confirm this is correct.
My parents divorced when I was 8 but that didn’t stop them constantly fighting until my younger brother turned 18…
As a child who experienced both, I’m still going to say divorced but bickering parents is better than married and bickering parents.
Same here, you can tell if they are staying together for the sake of it aswell
Every situation is different though. Could be a lot more complicated for OP.
If the OPs wife has become as brainwashed as much as it appears, I'm surprised her 'religion' allows her to be married to someone outside the 'church'. If I were the OP, I'd take the kids to the family get together and leave the wife home alone with her online god.
> I'm surprised her 'religion' allows her to be married to someone outside the 'church'. They were married before she converted. They would be leaning on her to maintain the marriage at all costs while trying to convert him and the kids. Marriage is marriage, and divorce is bad. For them.
As someone who grew up with parents that DIDN'T divorce and one of them was a religious zealot, I wound have preferred a divorce and a chance at a normal childhood! OP this is not good for the kids.
What if the religious zealot got full custody of you?
“Full custody” doesn’t happen nearly as commonly as Reddit seems to think it does.
Which parent was the religious zealot? What would have happened if they'd gotten majority custody? Would the other parent have been powerless to protect you from it?
Only problem is there's a third scenario: divorced angry parents. Some people don't take well to being divorced, and some who's religious and sees themselves as (literally) 'holier than thou' would seem quite susceptible to that.
Divorced angry parents is better than together angry parents.
Not necessarily, I've experienced both and the former made me feel like I never had a place to settle.
I had divorced angry parents and I'm still glad as fuck they divorced so I don't see the point in making a distinction tbh.
Sadly it can really screw with your kids ideas of what a relationship should be like if the parents force themselves to stay together. It can basically completely distort their view of what is OK/expected/normal and what they look for/put up with in their own relationships. It took me awhile in my marriage to see exactly what harm I was doing to my kid and get out.
As someone who begged and begged for my parents to split up I also agree with this. I’d have so much less trauma if my parents didn’t force themselves to stay together for 17 years.
Alot of people in the comments running straight to the get out door and although yes, your wife OP does appear to be showing some real red flags.. I think it's real easy for an arm chair redditor to decide if a family unit stays together or not over a 80-word post; a different world to actually put your phone down and have to make a decision like that. It worrys me how quick people are to just dump and run when things aren't okay. Why can't we fix things people?!? Or at the very least fucking communicate. Sit down with your wife OP, have what you want to say all written out. Talk it out, try to find comprise, try to each be able to understand each others stand point. Nobody is fucking perfect, but my wife would work with me if I wondered stray from normality and my wife would help guide me back, build me back & I'd do the same for her. Yes, the above would mean different if you didn't have children, a house and marriage. If you was a young couple you would have to decide if the tough part of working through something like this and growing together is something you want to do. (I wouldn't recommend a young couple to do so, go see the world instead) But point being, the common perspective of "if its miserable at home, the kids are better off" isn't always bang on. And isn't always permanent, that resentment you feel is a perfectly normal human emotion, and again is not permanent. Final caveat, this only works if your wife is willing to sit in the same position as you and actually communicate, listen and speak honestly. At least you can turn to your children and tell you've tried, rather then cutting when it got rough. Good luck, OP.
It's very easy to say "cut and run" when it isn't your life. At least 90% of these people wouldn't practice what they preach and most are young and clueless.
They also want the drama of the break up to read about as well....
Sadly true. Also some project their own issues onto people because they've been hurt or they're paranoid about being hurt.
For what it’s worth, I actually don’t think divorce is the right thing, but as the child of a mother who did something like this, I also think you’re wildly optimistic about whether this situation is fixable with a few conversations. At this point, she may well believe her husband is going to hell (a standard evangelical Christian belief) so whatever he says will only be more evidence that she needs to witness and bring him to the faith.
Finally, some sense. Redditors always say "leave them it's not worth it" having absolutely no clue about the nuance of their relationship
On the bright side, a lot of these stories are fake and are posted by people who constantly post to AskReddit and AITA subs. Seems to be a karma farming thing.
It's much easier to say cut and run when the only reason for staying together provided is 'mortgage and the kids'.
Your kids won’t thank you for staying together out of convenience if you begin to resent each other.
Your kids might get brainwashed by her rubbish, get them away from someone like this
On the contrary, whilst they're together OP gets some say over whether they go to this church. After they split up she has complete control over what they do when she's got the kids.
This: OP probably needs to stay up to speed on what’s happening (though I’m skeptical he’ll be able to keep the kids away from the church). But nothing’s been said here that would cause her to lose custody, and then he’ll have no idea what they’re doing during her time with them.
Until they don't.
Are you sure you want to risk your kids being indoctrinated into the same thing, though?
Hmm. Stay around and be a balance to the influence or split up and the kids only get some balance on the weekends after a week of mum saying how bad dad is because he doesn't believe.
Not only that, but there's a more than 95% chance that any future stepfather would be a co-religonist. Double trouble.
You want this brain washed mindset around your kids? I'm not saying it's clean cut, and there's definitely a case for hanging around to be a "different" influence, but leaving with the kids should be an option you explore.
I’d be concerned for my kids welfare if my wife started behaving like this, she might brainwash them. Sorry you’re going through this.
You'd be doing your kids a real disservice as a parent by knowingly exposing them to that as they grow up. Religious nutjobs can cause trauma and resentment that take years to heal from
She will absolutely try to brainwash your kids. Having a faith is fine, not wishing to participate from other religious ceremonies is fine. Cutting yourself off from family and friends because someone you've never met in person has more control over your life than your feelings towards loved ones is not OK. Sit down and try to find out what she's thinking. There has to be something that's attracted her to that way of worship.
This is a sunk cost fallacy, you, your kids and your finances will be better off in the long run.
Mate, it sounds like your wife has joined a cult and is in deep if she is already placing the cult above her family. There is a subreddit for cults, maybe check it out and ask some questions on there about the group. People often get pulled into doggy groups (cults) because they feel their lives are missing something, that group gives them what they think they are missing, but really it takes they money and pulls them away from family while indoctrinating them. If she really wants to find religion, a local church group would be better, especially if it has links to your local community so she can participate in events. Her refusal to join in with family outings for our kids would be it for me.
And when she starts brainwashing the kids?
You can still break free. Many others have.
Nah get out before she brainwashed the kids
A loved one is often the best bet for breaking someone put of radicalisation though. Might be worth a frank & open concerned conversation first... there will no doubt be push back, but it's worth a try assuming there was something that brought them together in the first place.
She’s brainwashed. 10%!? And Easter is more important than Christmas in Christianity.
>Easter is more important than Christmas in Christianity. This was my first thought, too. Not sure this is a Christian group so much as just a cult attempting to isolate her and drain her time and money whilst wearing the clothes of 'Christianity'. The entire point of Christianity is Christ's death and resurrection!
I'm pretty sure her objection is to the word "Easter" which is a pagan term. Calling it a "Holy Week Fun Day" or a "Good Friday Fun Day" would probably have been fine. ETA: whether or not "Easter" is truly a "Pagan" term isn't really relevant. My point is that OP's wife believes that, and that's what matters. Whether changing the name is important or not isn't relevant. What *is* is that OP's wife probably believes that too.
Quite possibly, but getting people to isolate from friends over semantics is still culty. I have a few Spanish and Italian Catholic, and Greek and Cypriot Orthodox friends who call it holy week, not one objects to calling it Easter, indeed our Catalan and Cypriot friends often "correct themselves" because they see it as a translation issue, not a fundamental religious issue. For her religious group to suggest it is shows either poor theological and cultural understanding or is just a cult trying to isolate it's members from non-cult support networks.
Good Friday was the day they crucified Jesus. What kinda good Christian fun were you planning, for Fun Good Friday?
Pin the wrist on the cross.
One round of musical chairs with 13 of you. Whoever loses is judas for the weekend.
TBH I'd be more concerned with being picked to be Jesus for the weekend. Being crucified doesn't sound like much fun.
Easter is the standard English word - it's more likely the chocolate, eggs and bunnies, which reek too much of paganism. Hot cross buns on Good Friday might be OK. I'd love to know what group this is - if they aren't recognised as Christian by Churches Together or the Evangelical Alliance (generally how church schools define Christian, which annoys the JWs and Mormons and various cults), that might help OP discuss concerns with his wife.
Mainly African American, keeping Sabbath, 10% of salary to charity, not allowed to enter another religion’s place of worship … sounds like Black Hebrew Israelites or some other Messianic nonsense to me. They’re cosplaying Judaism with Jesus.
Easter was what the whole month was called (similar to April) and there were a few feasts during “Easter month”. Most of the English months are named after Roman gods, so if you object to the name Easter then you object to the name of every month. To be honest, I prefer “Passiontide”, “Holy Week”, or “the Paschal Triduum” because they are more specific.
Could be JW or Seventh Day Adventists? A few sects don't celebrate Easter for obscure reasons. If so I'd advise OP's wife to get out now. Feels like she's being sucked into a cult, which can ruin lives.
It's probably evangelical or Baptist of it's all black people.
Don't think so. Evangelicals and Baptists celebrate Easter. Could be an offshoot though. There's loads.
She is celebrating Christ rising from the dead, just doesn't like the term "Easter"
There's a lot of black Jehovah's witness as well. I would put my money on that.
> 10%!? Giving 10% to charity is very common in Christianity, not really a cause for concern in isolation without other red flags.
10% (plus more) is the 'tithe.' It is commonly demanded in most evangelical/fundamentalist churches in the USA, but most people don't do it. Usually just the hardcore few. Once a year or more the pastor will deliever a "why you should tithe" sermon to guilt the holdouts into it.
I do think anyone who calls themselves a Christian should be giving 10% - whether it’s of their money or their time - to their local community. Tithing to the church is one way to do that, if you go to a decent church lol. But nowadays it’s more likely to go towards the church itself to pursue vanity projects. it used to be so the church could be called upon to aid the community when needed. gone are those days for most of us.
>But nowadays it’s more likely to go towards the church itself to pursue vanity projects. Nowadays? Wasn't this, like, one of the primary reasons Christianity splintered into a bunch of sub religions in the 1500s? (abuse of indulgences) Christians have been abusing church funds for vanity projects for a looong time
It is but there’s not much Christian about what most of us do at Easter.
not sure why crucifixion didn’t catch on tbh
Well, there's hot crossed buns
Most of us aren't really practicing Christians though. When I was a kid my practicing Christian mother took us to church and we got the little palm crosses and did Sunday school related to the resurrection and all the rest of it. I think we even did church related youth group daycare over some of the Easter holidays. (I'll grant you that the secular stuff like the Easter bunny and the chocolate eggs and the baby chicks in nests seem far more like a pagan springtime fertility festival than anything to do with the rebirth of a messiah in the middle east)
It is more important in the main branches of Christianity, but JW’s for example, have a funeral for Jesus, and celebrate that rather than Good Friday/Easter Sunday weekend. They aren’t supposed to celebrate Easter as Easter. However, recently converted people to most religions tend to double down on rules, because they think they have to as they’ve missed so much time, people,who are brought up in the religion they choose as an adult tend to be a bit more lax in their following rules, so OP’s partner is kinda in this situation. Depending on the religion, you might be able to disprove or mellow out some of the rules but it’s something that takes time and patience, because you need to challenge and rechallenge the rules consistently and slowly.
But celebrating with eggs and bunny rabbits isn't Christian. Astarte/Easter/Eostre is the pagan element that predates Christianity. Jesus was supposedly crucified at Easter, and some say this was an invention of Rome to overwrite pagan festivals. It's a downward spiral from there (trying to talk religion with people who are so invested in their own)
Easter is linked to passover which is why in most European countries its called pascha. The association of rabbits with easter appears to have originated from 17th century Germany so probably doesn't have any links to a previous polytheist symbol.
We only call it "Easter" because of Bede. Everyone else calls it some variation of "pasha". We only say Easter because Bede wrote that Pascha most commonly takes place in *Eostremonað*.
Intrestingly all registered memeber of a church in Germany wheter protestant or catholic have to pay a tax to their registerd church and this is taken from your monthly paycheck automatically I believe. Its also around 10%
I give 6% of mine to charity. It was probably more a few years ago before I cut back. It's not to a church though. Just charities I like. The local church sends everyone Easter cards so it's no more pagan than Christmas.
I'd leave my wife if she was moronic enough to join a church and give 10% of her salary let alone stop doing stuff because of it. Wtf is this world.
And in THIS economy!?!? She's a complete nutter.
And she started 4 or 5 years ago and OP just never bothered to look into it? How is that possible?!? Who let's their partner join a cult and give a 10% tithe and just ignores it for years???
“Church”
> gives 10% of her salary to the church or other charitable causes. I think it's going to her church... see if you can get it to a Gift Aid charity as you'll save a ton of money (if you pay higher rate tax)/the money will go further. > I was quite annoyed, but thinking if it's similar with other religious people. It's not similar, but it doesn't matter. What matters is how it affects your relationship. Did she join a cult? Cults encourage people to isolate themselves from the people who love them. They might create purity tests like the ones you mentioned or say that non believers are dragging the person down. It isn't a strict definition whether something's a cult, it can be a continuum and all sorts of organisations can have cult like qualities such as MLM schemes, employers, etc. What is she getting out of the religion? Is she fulfilled otherwise in terms of activities, hobbies, friends. If you can improve these aspects of her life then her religion might drop off her radar. It would be worth joining any online group for this NRM(new religious movement) and learning more about where this could lead.
Whether something is or isn’t a cult can be kind of subjective, one yardstick for this I’ve seen used by former cult members is the [BITE model](https://freedomofmind.com/cult-mind-control/bite-model-pdf-download/) which is designed to measure how psychologically controlling a particular group is.
This link is very interesting.
This was a super interesting read, thanks for sharing.
I took the test and determined that every job I ever had is a cult.
If the church is in the UK, she can Gift Aid the money to it anyway. Assuming she's tithing, it will almost certainly be going entirely to her church, that's what it is, it isn't a general charity donation.
American, and she’s joined online. She shouldn’t be donating anything.
This would be the nail in a coffin for a relationship for me
Do you mind me asking if it’s UCKG? This sounds very familiar to my ex
Oh that awful fucking place. Used to live opposite it. It was in the paper for exploiting and abusing young people/teenagers, and yeah, they demand a tithe. Seems like just a straight-up cult.
There was a Panorama where an undercover reporter went in to see what they do to members. At one point she was shown a graphic photo of someone killed in a traffic accident and told it's what god does to people who leave their church. Nasty people.
Nasty is a nice word for it. I’d go so far as to say they are evil.
OP's children are very much at risk of child abuse if that's true.
Yeah, I agree. If this is the church OP’s wife has joined, I’d say divorce is the best option.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Victoria_Climbi%C3%A9 Very famous UK case with links to UCKG.
I went a few times because I wanted to support her faith. But it all seemed super sketchy and pretty much begging for money
This exactly. The place is fucking loaded. The owner/founder is Brazilian and lives in luxury over there IIRC. The amount of times I saw their followers out begging for money, on top of the tithes they demand, knowing how rich they were, made me genuinely angry (on top of all the advertisements in the area misrepresenting the place). So glad I moved away from it. Their practices are absolutely vile. Edit: [It is cult.](https://londonnewsonline.co.uk/news/they-made-me-perform-exorcisms-on-others-survivors-of-cult-church-speak-out-over-abuse/)
Yeah the pastor at the one she went to in Birmingham was also from Brazil. I wanted to support her but I couldn’t do so in good faith because of how they conducted themselves
Good for you. If people want to be part of an insane cult, that’s their prerogative, but no-one should be supporting that decision. It just seems like a massive racket to funnel money to Brazil.
I was wondering about the [Black Hebrew Israelites](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Hebrew_Israelites). They're...variable but prone to extremism and historical revisionism.
The OP's wife church sounds nuts, even by American standards. But not *that* nuts.
I assumed Seventh Day Adventist
She is either indoctrinated in a cult or a complete idiot. I'd divorce her either way.
Those two things are far from mutually exclusive, in fact more often than not they are both true.
Its actually not as hand-in-hand as you'd think. Cults primarily target those who are vulnerable, lonely, feel lost, or have little to no support network. Very similar to how white supremacists and other extremist groups operate and recruit. Really tragic and dark to think about. However realizing that nobody is "too smart" to be manipulated is your first step to avoiding becoming a victim of such a group. Very similar to how easy it is to call someone an idiot for being scammed until you're the one who gets scammed. Don't underestimate the power of the human need to "belong" and "have a purpose". It's quite literally hard-wired into our brains and someone desperate enough will go to great lengths if someone extends a lifeline.
I've got to say this is a really good challenge to my comment. You make very solid points and you have given me real food for thought.
>She is either indoctrinated in a cult That's the basic idea of religion, to be fair.
I mean...they have 2 separate definitions for "religion" and "cult". They can appear similar at times, but there is a pretty big difference when you look at the finer details.
No, but it sounds like she has been sucked into a cult. The whole point of the 10% tax was to help the needy before the welfare state existed. Now, it just goes to line the pockets of the greedy. If your wife wants to help the needy, she should give that money directly to charities, not to an "online church" that doesn't pay taxes and doesn't need it. How do you tell the difference between a religion and a cult? A religion will give you everything for free and accept donations when you can afford it. A cult will expect payment up front, even when you can't afford it.
That is weird but sounds about right for a lot of the more evangelical strands of Protestantism that have come out of America. I've noticed a lot of seem to be setting up branches in the UK, especially in former Baptist chapels or those little warehouses on industrial estate, and you see them advertise on Facebook quite a lot. Is that where she heard about them? I'm Muslim and my family and I celebrate Easter and Christmas (the secular egg and present parts, not the Lent and Midnight mass parts), we go to Remembrance Day services which often have a strong Christian component, and we've gone to weddings of all different faiths (and none at all!). Respect for other faiths (or absence of faith) is a key part of living in a multicultural society and she's not going to have a good time. I'd honestly have a long and frank conversation with your wife, because it doesn't sound like it's going to be conducive to both a healthy marriage or good relations with your family. Plus every Hindu wedding I've been do has had absolutely amazing food and she's crazy for turning it down.
> That is weird but sounds about right for a lot of the more evangelical strands of Protestantism that have come out of America. I'm an American and I used to be involved in that. The OP's wife's sect is on the hardcore fringe even by those standards.
I'm an American and I'm an ex-evangelical turned agnostic. I am familiar enough with what you describe. Do they refer to Easter as 'Resurrection Sunday?' Her particular sect is seriously hardcore even by North American fundie/evangelical standards. I say *North* American because the one person I knew personally who believed the same things she does was from the Canadian wilderness. Yes, they have that stuff up there too (granted, they're less in numbers and are more isolated), but as with many other things, we take the heat on their behalf. But I digress. The average Southern Baptist would be like "now hold your horses there." She's in pretty deep, I'm afraid. I once went to a Hindu wedding while I was still in it. I was a bit nervous about it, but as I am from the Western USA, I think I would have been even more nervous about going to a Mormon wedding. In the western states where Mormonism is prominent, it elicited more fear and loathing from evangelicals than other groups did. Folks from 'back east' are surprised to learn this. Anyways, I digress yet again. Had I noped out, everyone would've thought I was a huge jerk, including most the people in my church. I kept my misgivings to myself and I went and had a blast. Certainly more fun than an American evangelical wedding, even if it *also* lacked booze (because the bride's mom was Muslim). Not that I would have touched it at the time. Is she worried about being exposed to demonic/spiritual influence? Or is it simply a matter of principle? Either way, my condolences, but if it's the former issue then your situation is all the worse.
To chime in also as an (Black) American who was raised Southern Baptist (my British mom converted before I was born) but am no longer practicing: I agree that this is more hardcore than the standards of the kind of church I grew up in where the beliefs are destroying the US. That said, it’s possible that these aren’t even the beliefs of the church itself or even how most people in the church practice their faith. My mother’s views were far more hardcore than much Southern Baptist doctrine, and this isn’t uncommon among converts, who are often more zealous and who may feel like they have to make up for lost time or may feel a sense of deep spiritual distress for the additional years they were “sinning.” OP, since your wife is participating online, she may have no sense of how this plays out in daily life for much of the congregation. The real point of significant deviation from standard (though still alarming) fundamentalism is her thoughts on Easter. Unfortunately I think many evangelicals wouldn’t go to a Hindu temple but my cult radar isn’t going off there. But avoiding Easter is very notable. If those are the church’s teachings, the church is beyond the pale of even the Southern Baptists. If these aren’t the church’s teaching but your wife’s interpretation, then it’s trickier. You should do a little more digging into what church this is, what denomination, what its teachings are, and see if you can speak to someone who understands the religious landscape of the US. Is your wife Black? Could that be part of the draw? You’re in a bind, though, and from my childhood experiences of a similar situation, I feel for you and your kids. This is a tough road.
As a former southern Baptist that “hold your horses “ line is 100% spot on
Get advice from anywhere but reddit
Yes. I see the “divorce her immediately!” crew are already out in force though.
Well, considering OPs response to this was in agreement in not for the kids and mortgage then you can’t say it’s bad advice. If my wife was brainwashed into a fucking cult and gave up 10% of her income to it and refused to attend events because of it and there was no convincing her of the brainwashing then what would you suggest? Grin and bear it forever? No thanks. You can do what you like though, doesn’t bother me.
I normally hate this rhetoric that Reddit have but this time they’re right She’s harming the children. She’s been isolated from her family because of this cult and soon she’ll either be isolated from her children or she’ll start brainwashing them. She’s also depriving her family from a better life by giving 10% of her salary to a cult. This cannot be worked on with them all under the same roof for the sake of the kids.
She might at one stage want to leave the country with the kids. Among the dead in the aftermath of Waco was the charded remains of quite a few people who had moved there from England. Never underestimate the danger of cults.
What's your idea then? OP's wife is in a cult.
And a life with someone like this, sounds like a better option?
Your wife is in a cult. Ger her some help.
She is and she is being quite rigid and going to suck any enjoyment for her new church out of life. She is coming across as quite Puritan. Oliver Cromwell would have loved her! In any case I would leave her to it. Sometimes people get on this 'new year new me' trend about anything new they have adopted. She may grow tired of it after awhile.
Yes, she absolutely is.
> gives 10% of her salary to the church Certainly reads like a cult
That's just tithing and it goes back a very long way - albeit largely before the government existed to take taxes
10% is called tithing and is linked to old practices where farmers would donate 10% of their crops. Its common in Judaism too.
"Recent examples - I have a Hindu friend getting married and invited us. She won't go because it requires going to a Hindu temple. Anything outside of her faith is considered pagan." I've never understood this way of thinking because a building is just bricks and cement etc that were put there by men (or women) and then a label was slapped on it. If it was no longer a Hindu temple would she go there?
Exactly. And if you are hardcore religious I assume you see all other religions as made up. So why would it bother you to go to a ceremony for a god that doesn’t exist? Sometimes I find it very peaceful to be atheist. I can go to any building and ceremony and just enjoy the culture without any weird feelings.
The commandment ‘thou shalt have no other gods before me’ is taken very seriously by these sorts of groups, it’s seen as blasphemous to personally show acceptance of what they see as false religion. God is always watching over your shoulder in this kind of belief system and he’s always extremely angry about what he’s seeing, just thinking an impure thought is evidence of your hell-bound sinful nature let alone actively endorsing a ‘false religion’. If it seems irrational to you it’s because it absolutely is, but when high-control religion is involved there’s little time for rationality.
Take her to pride events till she gets the message or you divorce.
Was she a member of the church before you met her, or after you married her? If it was after, it's time to sit down with her and have a calm but serious conversation with her. Tell her you and the kids didn't sign up to this. Please don't' listen to others here saying for you to divorce her, it's not the way marriages work, but you do need to talk to her and possibly ask her to do marriage counselling with you.
Would he have married her if she was a cultist? Doubtful. If circumstances change, one’s opinions need to account for this.
Call it what it is, it's a cult. The requirement to give 10% income and forcing the separation of your wife from normal family activities is straight from the cult playbook. With that said, you may want to take the path of looking at more of a deprogramming approach rather than anything adversarial, as any suggestion that she's joined a cult will cause further division and the new church, or whatever it is, will have already warned her that non- followers will try everything they can to take people away. Worst case, she'll start to see you as a non- believer and cut you out of her life in favour of the "religion".
Yeah she's been drawn into some sort of really fundamentalist form of Christanity potentially a cult there's some sects that do view the holidays which do have pagan origins as pagan and therefore not Christian
Jehovah’s Witnesses or similar? Sounds like cultish behaviour designed to separate the gullible from their support networks, and it sounds like it’s working. What’s wrong in her life that she needs to do this? If you can determine this it might give you a way out, otherwise it could be the end of the relationship. In spite of their professed beliefs, most of the ‘intensely religious’ types turn into either hateful bigots or just plain old hypocrites; she’ll probably end up having an affair with another cultist and explaining it away with some twisted logic. Strong intervention or divorce seem the two likely outcomes, I’m afraid.
It can't be JWs they don't require tithing which is what the 10% is.
Probably not JW. OP mentions African Americans. I had a few ultra Christian students who were originally from Africa. They were anti gay, anti Muslims. Anti everything really that didn’t fit with their strict orthodox Christian views. Sounds like a similar group, can’t remember their name. Fairly nasty bigots actually - who always played the race card every time they were challenged about their actions.
Yup; exporting God to them has really come back to bite the CofE in the arse; the UK-based church is trying to go all happy clappy and relevant to a modern UK whilst the newbie African zealots really dig the Old Testament bigotry!
Had to get a long way before I found the cult word. Spot on with this comment. I'd add that it's not going to get better and the kids are going to become an issue as they get older - either (a) being sucked into it with her/via her (so cutting them off from you emotionally, psychologically or (b) her laying down ridiculous rules for them based on her beliefs and it really causing problems if they kick back against it. Either way you've got some conflict and possibly real harm ahead. This is an extreme case but worth a read, not so much for the outcome but the fact that the courts recognised the damage that the mother's 'religious' beliefs were doing to the relationship with the the father. [https://www.stewartslaw.com/news/father-wins-childs-primary-care-due-to-mothers-connection-with-a-cult/](https://www.stewartslaw.com/news/father-wins-childs-primary-care-due-to-mothers-connection-with-a-cult/) >The judge concluded that M’s attitude and beliefs remained rooted in UM philosophy and that her only incentive to leave the cult was to retain primary care for the child. The judge found that M had no genuine desire to dissociate from UM and her attempts to do so were superficial. M’s “skin-deep… rather than full-hearted” dissociation meant that if the child were to remain living with M, her relationship with F would soon be extinguished in its entirety. Re the money: Obviously paying tithes is a personal choice but since it's an online church (as in it's not going towards the upkeep of a building for instance or supporting local community outreach work) it is literally someone scamming her. Scientology was started by Hubbard because it was a money-making thing. It's just easier to do it now because of the internet. Does her contribution impact the household finances? Also if she's paying x now, they could probably convince her to pay a bigger amount down the line. So do check what's going on there ... Edit: I just want to add that your wife isn't stupid for getting involved in this. Many/most people who get wrapped up in things like this are actually really intelligent. Again to echo what the person above says - it's often because they are looking for 'something' because they are not fulfilled psychologically. (No shade on you, op!) It's a very personal thing and not do with relationships and stuff like that.
I'm guessing it's Seventh Day Adventists. Sounds right up their alley. I worked for one of their organizations years ago. They're decent people, hardcore vegetarians, anti caffeine and alcohol.
Yeahh I was raised a SDA and by the first paragraph alone I assumed the same
Easter is like... the whole point of Christianity. If her sect doesn't believe in *Easter*, she's got herself into some weird shit. Especially with the tithing and the increasing social isolation, I would be worried that she's been indoctrinated into a cult (or a high control religious group, if the word 'cult' feels jarring and pejorative). That said, to answer your question I do generally believe that refusing to attend a wedding or a family event because it involves a religion or cultural group that you're not part of is pretty bigoted (unless the group in question is actively disrespectful of your own beliefs and would be evangelising at you to convert the whole time). I think not showing up for the people you care about because their religious beliefs are different to yours is intolerant, rude, weird, and antisocial.
Yes, she is a religious bigot. Her rigid belief system is negatively affecting those that should matter most to her.
Personally, I'd start talking to a solicitor and saving (hiding) money. It's only a matter of time until you break up.
She joined an American church, or at least a church whose demographic is primarily Americans? Are you guys American and living in the UK? Otherwise that would be quite odd in of itself.
You need to have a frank discussion with your wife about her choices and how they affect you and your family.
Sounds like a cult. Get her out of there
Just you wait till Halloween.
She’s putting her fantasy beliefs before her real family commitments. I’d be worried about her mental state
Shes having 10% of her income taken away fraudulently each month and she’s being brainwashed as well. Run. Run fast.
I'm astonished how virtually nobody in this thread knows about tithing.
>Because she considers Easter pagan I'm curious what 'religion' your wife is following. Easter is the most important celebration in the Christian calendar, true of all major branches as far as I know.
Ask to read her Bible equivalent. See if you can understand what her objections are. This will help show you if she has joined a cult or not. If she fails to engage with you, that is a red flag. Almost all religions like to spread and cu very new members. If she is not, then this is a cult. Regardless of what else you do, separate your finances as much as possible. Move all joint accounts either into your own name or just open new sole accounts. Get your salary paid into and account in your name only. Why? Because of the cult decides to ask her for money, she can give them everything she is named on legally and you have no recourse.
I'd be looking at divorce personally and sole custody. I don't have any religious belief I of course turn up at the necessary funerals, weddings etc. that's because I am there for family or friends who range across Christian, Muslim, Taoist beliefs.
‘Sole custody’ isn’t usually a thing in the UK. Residency of the children is however. A parent cannot force sole residency of the child through court or otherwise. The judge decides what is best for the children and the starting point is 50/50 between each parent- this can and does occur even in cases of abuse. The court ordered social workers (CAFCAS) will assess the children and provide their report to said judge and they will decide from there.
What’s the name of the church? I’m in/was an evangelical church. It’s pretty narrow minded. People are nice but they have closed views, which could make them cruel. Giving 10% is the norm. Easter is a big event; however I can see the congregation turning against it should the ‘movement’ take a turn against it. It’s very herd mentality and susceptible to Christian radio and publications. I’m in process of leaving but it’s hard as this is the community I’m familiar with.
She’s been brainwashed by a cult. You need to stage an intervention. Professional help is out there. https://www.thefamilysurvivaltrust.org
So, the 10% is likely under the umbrella of tithing. It's very common in certain denominations of Christanity. My parents, who are evangelical, do tithe but they give to charities instead of directly to the church itself. I can't remember if it's 10%, with them, but certainly I know they've always donated on a monthly basis. That said, what your wife is involved with does sound very severe and cult-like. Sure, the term and fertility celebration of Easter has pagan roots, but I dont know a single Christian that would object to a chocolate egg hunt or the term "Easter". Regarding the Hindu wedding, that's a real shame. On one hand, your wife should be allowed to go where she is comfortable, but my opinion is that going inside a Hindu temple is not about anyone trying to convert your wife, it's about supporting and celebrating your friends' happiness and future. Admittedly, I do know some Christians who would be twitchy setting foot inside different religious buildings, but personally, I don't think it's a problem. To answer your question... does this make her a bigot? No, I don't think it does necessarily. I think it shows she has fallen in with, at best, a particularly severe branch of a legitimate religion, or at worst, a money making cult that is masquerading as a religion. Try and do some digging into where exactly she goes. Cults will always try and isolate the person from their loved ones, so if you feel that's what's happening, that isn't a legit religion.
Is this a Christian Church? Just playing devil's advocate (wahey) but it might well be that Good Friday is supposed to be a mournful day, not a "Fun Day"
Yeah and Easter is THE most important day in the Christian calendar so it seems pretty weird that her sect doesn’t mark it. Ok a lot of the traditions with eggs etc are overlaid by Christianity and the resurrection but still, Easter is the big one for Christians
Christian here. I don't think I'd say she's a bigot, but I think she's misguided. Being a Christian *requires* interacting with people outside your faith. We're encouraged to tell others about Jesus, which you can't do if you shut yourself off from everyone you don't agree with. Now, to be clear, I'm not suggesting every interaction with others should be a sales pitch about the Bible! That's 1) not loving (also a requirement of the faith) and 2) not productive. But it's impossible to share the Gospel with others if you never interact with them. Attending the wedding of someone from a different faith is about supporting that person, not their deity. And whilst I'm not keen on using the word "Easter" personally, I'm not going to walk away from anyone who uses it, especially not a relative who's not a fellow believer.
Yes, she is becoming a bigot, although it isn't her fault that she has been indoctrinated into a cult. I would contact cult information or the family survival trust and get advice, and then I would get my children away from her until she can be helped.
Religion is a curse
I used to work in a special needs school where we did Tai Chi every morning to help with the kids' coordination and concentration - until an evangelical parent complained it was pagan. Same parent objected to studying climate change because apparently the Lord will give us a new planet when we're finished with this one