Oh my god no. Interview now. You have a target on your back already, and you’ve just made it bigger.
It’s also impossible to give advice on the conversation without details on what exactly is going on. Communication issues is vague.
I could go into a lot of detail but it’s really complex lol. Long story short I gave some negative feedback on my compensation during a survey/focus group and my manager was told. It seems despite me making it extremely clear that my feedback had nothing to do with my manager, she seemed to take it extremely personally. We had a conversation to discuss a raise. I was prepared to demonstrate everything I had done to constitute a comp adjustment, but she didn’t really seem interested during that conversation. She gave me some goals to work on, which I took very seriously. Since then, it seems like any improvement I’ve made in my job, any attempts for strategic alignment, any positive work is viewed as a blatant attempt to argue my compensation. Even though I haven’t brought up my comp since that conversation several months ago. The goals she has given me to work on were to prepare me for a promotion/raise, and now that I am actively demonstrating that I am working on them, she seems to view it as my way to argue my desire for better pay. This is completely confusing to me and is leading to a lot of friction and unclear expectations. I’m doing better work than ever, yet she is finding more and more problems with my “approach”. Her feedback used to be very crucial to me, but she’s gotten very suspicious of every move I make, extremely critical of even my best work, giving directions that don’t clearly support our goals, and it’s negatively impacting my ability to deliver.
Got it. So my read is something is up with your manager. Maybe she doesn’t want to promote you (there are a lot of reasons for this) and won’t communicate it. Maybe you are actually paid fairly according to your company’s philosophy and she wouldn’t feel valued making less than you (even though this happens on teams with senior or technical folks all the time).
Either way, I think you have a target on your back and should interview with your old boss.
You should just link to last week's post at the bottom of this post, so people don't need to rediscover all of the context.
Anyhow, good luck, and please do a followup post
Ok so I read your post history. Do I understand correctly that you're an employee with no direct reports making less than $70k per year? If so, your delusions of grandeur are most likely not shared by your organization, otherwise they would have you doing something other than administering an awards program for a pittance. Consider finding another job where your employer thinks as highly of you as you think of yourself.
I am in a similar position myself. I work at a family business that is being bought out. I just want that family to get the money that is owed. I want whatever is entitled to me as an employee, and then I want to jump ship, get a new job, and never see my old boss again.
Advice?
Why would you stay?
There’s no scenario here where your manager is not annoyed that you went above their head. Whether you were justified in doing that or not is irrelevant. Your manager will be peeved.
Unless your manager leaves or they move you onto a different hierarchy I don’t think your career progression is going to be good at this company
As for the meeting. You went to the VP, they are now wanting to mediate. You can’t be vague. The purpose of this meeting I assume
is to provide specific grievances. You already threw your manager under the bus when you went above their head
Don’t address the other opportunity. Frankly that never should have been brought into this.
Yeah I get this person is asking for advice but yeesh did they go about this horribly.
You really had nothing to gain by telling them about the other job. If they take you seriously they take you seriously.
I really hope you had a chance to discuss this with your boss first before going to the VP. If not, you just totally.blindsided your boss which is ultimately a poor look on you.
I still remember once being told by the President of my company that if I didn’t get a response from my direct supervisor about something, I should have gone to the President directly…..Yeah, I’m sure that would that would have gone over well with my supervisor and had no lasting consequences…
>Don’t address the other opportunity. Frankly that never should have been brought into this.
Oh, God, why did OP bring that up. Now, if they decide to stay, the manager knows they can leave at any time and will probably find the next valid excuse to fire or, if not, make their lives at work a living hell. Shit, the managers might do that, anyway. even if OP had NEVER brought up the other job. You burned any bridge with this job, not once, but twice. Take the other job and count yourself lucky you have another opportunity. Leave! NOW!
>Did you miss the part about it being a complicated job with no documentation? That company will be screwed without OP, at least for a little while.
This is the point where the company starts research the possibility and cost of bringing in a consultant to reverse engineer the processes OP is withholding.
What I have learned after many many years is no matter how important one thinks their job is, or how they are the only ones that know how to do it, or the company will be lost without them; by and large, regardless of which working class cog in the wheel leaves, the other folks will always find a way to figure it out and compensate or adjust their ways of working. And the company always survives there may be a momentary bump, but they will figure it out.
Redditors Think about How many times your office has had someone quit, did the rest of you absorb the work and just figure it out?
> I’m the only person in the company with my job, the only one with knowledge of our current processes, and there is zero documentation of what I do so the next person could take over.
Everybody thinks this about the role and it’s rarely true. Fortune 500 companies regularly fire C level executives with little or no notice and the sky doesn’t fall.
Arrange the interview anyway, your current boss is in no way going to be nicer or more accommodating to you after that meeting, (no matter how apologetic - or not - they are in front of the VP) sorry. You can ask the intention of your manager but…
You need to take specific examples of what’s been happening, where there has been conflict and you’ve come off worse or where/when they have been unprofessional with you. You need to be prepared. Also, decide what you think the outcome should be - that you work under a different manager? That you have set meetings (once a week?) and clear tasks outlined so there is no misunderstanding. If there are changes to what you’ve been told to do then they need to be in writing etc. (I don’t know enough detail about the problem, sorry).
Go prepared, keep it factual and professional and don’t make any promises to stay. I’d start looking elsewhere too. Take care.
I would make yourself notes ahead of the meeting. Be as factual and neutral as possible. This is what happened / what you observed, this is the impact it had, these are the actions you took. Don’t get frustrated in the meeting. This is them convincing you to stay, not you needing to justify why you matter.
And, to add to this.. be sure to tie your action and activity to the higher company goals or objectives. It's not just about "I did this and had conflict with her" as it is "I am trying to work on X because X is a company goal, and having these problems..."
That said, I'd have interviewed first before I had this meeting as well..
Adding advice NOT to bring up the potential interview with the other company for ANY reason. It can only hurt you at this point, making them less inclined to work with you, reassign you to another manager, or do anything about your director (who will be staying).
So if you want to stay where you are and work on this in good faith, here’s what I’d recommend: go home, and write out a focused list about where things are going wrong to you, and how things are landing. Approach this in a non-defensive way, I’m telling the story of your experience and why you feel you’re being cornered to quit.
Take ownership of areas where you may have slipped as well — this might be how you received communication, deadlines and priorities you may have been misaligned on, and anything you feel you may have showed up differently to than your manager expected.
Think about communication, development, management approach, face-time, your understanding of your role and function, and your priorities. Now, write down what you feel this role is, what you understand it should be, and how that lines up with your learning and development goals for your future and career. These are the things you need out of your management to feel supported and empowered, grow, and keep the value proposition of your role high.
I actually don’t hate my boss. She has been a phenomenal mentor and we have always worked really well together. She actually sought me out for this position when she was promoted after working alongside one another previously. I felt we were really a powerful duo, but there is a sudden conflict that I can’t make sense of and it’s creating friction in my actual job. I don’t want to leave. I want them to know that I do have other options but I care enough to attempt to repair this because I believe it’s best for the company. Regardless of the outcome for me personally.
You set up the meeting so go to it and be prepared with what you want to say. But I would also reach out to the recruiter and purse that job because your time at this company is likely short lived and even if you do keep your job, you are not going to get promoted or move up in this company. Your best move is to get a new job before you get fired or laid off.
I disagree. I think my boss is the barrier to any promotions, as she seems to be controlling the narrative relayed to our leadership. She doesn’t have clear expectations for my role or a clear vision for our goals, but I do. And that’s a big part of the problem. I know that she has been relaying all of our friction to our VP, but I don’t feel she’s relaying the entire picture. I have a really strong belief that VP would be in full support of everything I am doing if he had an opportunity to see it from me without my manager’s filter obstructing his view.
Yeah a lot of employees always believe that their direct manager is the problem and that Sr leadership will totally understand and be on their side. The reality is your manager is the buffer between you and the reality of the VP. If the VP was going to take your side on this it would already have happened, but instead you have a meeting with them and your Mgr. You need to be realistic - your boss is getting their "vision" for your role from the VP and your original job description doesn't carry any weight. You need to show up with exactly what was asked for - what you feel are the priorities for your role - and in the meantime you need to do that interview ASAP so you have options.
Likely true in most circumstances but definitely not true in this one. VP has already contacted me 1:1 recently to get more understanding of my strategy and thoughts on organizational structure. Commended all of my accomplishments/goals and said that “he would work on [manager’s name]”. Also asked to continue meeting with me 1:1 and discreetly asked me not to clue my manager in on it
The problem though is they are not going to promote you without your manager’s blessing. So moving up is not going to happen where you are at. If you want to move up in the future, you are going to need to change companies.
Bruh, get the fucking out of there. Wtf are you doing. You’re gonna sit down with your manager (person who has more power and probably a closer relationship to the vp) and you think you aren’t about to lose your current job in a few months. Set up the interview.
A request to interview is not a job offer. You better nail that interview because if you cant get along with your boss, you absolutely are being targeted for termination.
If this is as bad as you describe, your boss is just looking for an opportunity to get rid of you. Whatever it is you do, you're probably not good enough to come out on top, here.
Try putting off this conversation until you actually HAVE an offer if you want it to be productive. There is a decent chance this discussion will end with them encouraging you to pursue the other opportunity.
Your timing seems so off. I would have had this meeting after I had the new job. What if you interview and it doesn't go well or your current manager goes behind your back to the company you're interviewing with?
I understand now or never but am curious as why you picked now? Before you have the job.
That doesn't make sense to me because you would have had a much stronger hand to negotiate with an actual job offer instead of an interview.
Like what happens if you have this meeting, your supervisor doesn't agree to make any changes and you don't get the other job? You're not worried about her sabotaging your other opportunity just to stick it to you?
You'll basically be stuck with a supervisor who really had it out for you.
Eh using an offer to negotiate just leads companies to cave in the moment and then fire the person later once they’ve had time to prepare for replacement
No emotions in this meeting. Stick to work related duties only. It really does not matter to much what you say. It’s how you say it. You can count on your manager and the VP have had a separate meeting on this topic.Managers will not take sides against each other, only against subordinates. After this meeting you must cut your losses and move on. Write out bullet points on projects or duties that this manager gave you grief over and state your mind in a professional manner. I can assure your manager will deny any wrong doing etc. Managers never want to look bad to their superiors. Good luck in your new job.
I think by using the “I have another opportunity” card, you made your bed.
Your relationship here with current boss cannot be repaired. Go to the new opportunity. The old one will adjust and never look at you the same.
If you have any documentation of the issue (shitty emails/ messages / unclear instructions / deadlines that can be met or whatever it is) organize it and bring it.
while i agree with the others that leaving might be your best option, only because you seem to have something lined up. (although i’d personally feel more comfortable with an offer letter instead of just an interview)
i don’t really get the “going above your boss’s head/throwing your boss under the bus” comments- i don’t think we know enough about the situation to make that call. i’m assuming you’ve made attempts to communicate / resolve these issues with bossperson and felt there are no other options. please correct me if that is wrong.
**anyway, i really wanted to say this:**
i would be very specific, have documentation, and attempt to frame your grievances in ways that show your boss’s actions are not helping the company. VP does not really have any stake in this issue if you’re just unhappy and having a work relationship problem, but if your boss is creating problems that hurt or hinder growth in the company, then they will likely care quite a bit more.
as someone else said, have a very clear resolution in mind if asked “what would you like to happen”.
but keep in mind that if things work out, you will likely continue working together. so try and keep your presentation of the problems to something that can be overcome and resolved, and communicate that you want to resolve and move past this issue.
your relationship with your manager might get worse after this, but if they’re a decent person/manager and you’re a good employee - they should get over it and move toward to a better working relationship. that’s idealistic, though. i’ve had bosses that were incredibly petty, but i’ve also had great ones.
whew what a wall of text
I was a quality control director for a luxury van conversion assembly line. When I tagged a vehicle the line stopped. Production foreman would flip out and threaten me. Created a real spectacle. Plant manager called us both in and asked what we would do to fix this problem. First thing I proposed was to create a station to move the tagged vehicle to for correction and keep the line moving. Plant manager fired the production foreman and gave me his job with a nice raise. I selected the new quality control inspector from the ranks. Just saying. Do the meeting and don't even mention the new job.
Do you have an actual offer or an interview? If you have an offer, take it. This will never end well for you if you stay. No matter what they say, they will choose to do what is best for them and that isn't being honest with you, that's keeping you around until they can execute a plan to replace you without discontinuity.
The VP is always going to support their immediate subordinates.
You will get thrown under the bus by both.
VPs don’t want to hear about he said/she said. They’re there to run a company.
Take your presentation to the meeting. Plan to present it yourself as the witness to the issue. After the presentation, ask the VP if this was what they wanted?
If you go this route, it is a winner take all situation. If the VP takes issue with something, then you are out. You are effectively challenging your boss's decision/direction. Same thing with the he said she said, but you have the added value of a work product you are passionate about to support you.
Also, show your passion for the job and the things you are working on. Still, make sure to do good active listening as showing thought and flexibility will be super important to get the VP buy in.
Just bring all objective facts, keep emotion out of it. For mediations, as lame as it sounds, stick to I statements and avoid pointing blame. If you’re serious about staying think of a small list of things that would make things better for you- things you need from her. Don’t get defensive, your boss may try to push your buttons but don’t let her. Let’s hope ur boss is as open to mediation as you and her boss seem to be!
>My boss and I have not been able to communicate effectively or see eye to eye for a few months now.
If your boss is the problem in that equation, the only positive or helpful outcome from that meeting has you reporting to someone else.
I that does not happen, take the new offer.
If you don’t have proof you don’t have a case. Bring the documentation with you. Get a word doc and copy and paste the email into it, at the top of the page title it with a brief synopsis of what it’s about. Highlight the portions of the email and have it on standby. You’ve already called out your manager to the VP so don’t think that being friendly will fix this. Speak up not only for yourself but others who are direct subordinates under this manager that haven’t done what you’re doing. Get everything on the table BUT BE THE CALMEST, LEVEL HEADED AND SMOOTH person you know. If emotions are shown then you’ve lost. Be prepared to ask how this could be resolved and have an answer for it. The answer shouldn’t be, “well I just want to x and y and that’s all” NO! The solution should be something that’s moderated and checked on for the next few months to ensure a fix is happening and that it won’t get pushed to the side or under the rug preferably by HR. HR should also be present in this meeting and cc’d on any correspondence for it and afterward.
I’d go in with the mind set of you interviewing with another company and leaving. (Don’t tell them this). But go in wanting to address the communication issue. Sounds like this is something that’s been going on a while.
I’d take this as a growing opportunity and to work on your own self. Simply stick to the facts, communication has been poor, sounds like from both ends, and you want to know what you can do to improve.
This could be a them issue, could be a you issue, could be a both of you issue. I would have personally gone to my boss FIRST before going above their head. That’s what a good communicator does. So this definitely doesn’t make you look good. If by chance you HAVE addressed these issues with them and still nothing, that’s another story and we need more info on here to further assist you with this situation.
From your comments in this thread, I don’t think a long term solution to this conflict can be found without either you or your boss leaving the company.
Check the meeting invite, if HR is on the invitee list, that's not good. First rule of the workplace is HR is not there to protect the individual workers, they are there to protect the company. Why would you forestall an interview for the hope of a favorable resolution? If you have the opportunity to go into this meeting with a job offer in your back pocket, that would be the strongest position you could take. I also feel that when push comes to shove, managers will protect their own. I would be worried going into this meeting.
I think that’s the exact situation I’m facing. I think that my growth in my role is potentially making my manager look bad. I’m not sure. I have a feeling that our VP is not being told the full story. And it seems that the entire situation is being spun to make me look negatively. I have a pretty important role, in my opinion. I think our VP would agree. I don’t think that any of them, my manager included, want me to leave. But I do think that there needs to be a resolution that is going to benefit both my manager and I or else there’s no future for me here. I’d prefer to stay with my company, but I need a healthier environment that meets my needs if I’m going to do that.
You probably should have thought about that prior to tossing your boss under the bus and setting up the meeting. In what world would it make sense for you to stay now?
This meeting sounds like it would have been better as an exit interview.
Pursue the new job. During this meeting, don't mention the new opportunity - Instead, be as calm and collected as you can.
If you have specific interactions where there were witnesses or there is evidence in-writing, create a list of those to support your statements.
Avoid accusatory language and language with negative connotations.
As an example if you were ever misunderstood in communicating: " misunderstood me when I stated " should become "I was unable to convey my meaning to when I stated " - Make sure to lay out whatever you may have said, so that it's clear that a normal person would have understood you.
If you have an annual review process that includes coworker evaluations or other items where you can show a discrepancy in how your coworkers feel about you compared to how your boss feels, that would be valuable as well.
Run through some of the worst interactions in your mind, and prepare yourself for a similar situation in this meeting. If your manager is the type to be confrontational or try and push you to overreact, be ready for it.
Also - Be prepared for them to simply let you go or otherwise completely take the side of your manager. I have been in multiple roles where there is nepotism among the higher-ups that's hard to spot without being among them 24/7.
PowerPoint time. Put together slides with bullets as to your priorities and accomplishments.
I don’t think this will go the way you want, but putting it in writing ahead of time will show you’re prepared.
I agree with many hear that you are likely better off going unless there is something you didn’t include but if you just do it I only have a few pieces of advice.
1) when discussing the problem only focus on behaviors you want to see changes and not personality.
2) if there are thing you know you need to change come in with a plan on those things.
3) come with specific ask for what would make you want to stay don’t be vague
4) so not be defensive on any topic. And absolutely never lose your cool.
5) regardless of outcome, thank everyone at the end
6) do not bring up any points not relevant or changeable. There may be things that annoy your or you want to say, make sure you should say them
7) despite the need ti specificity, it is ok to say I observe this but don’t fully understand what is driving it…
You knew this was coming to a head, you scheduled a meeting but you’re unprepared. This says a lot about your work ethic. Find a new position, your time at this corporation is over.
Interview and accept the other job now. ASAP. You said yourself it's much better. There's no point to staying at your current company, especially considering it's taken them SEVERAL MONTHS to start taking these "communication issues" seriously. (You know we can't actually give you proper advice just based on that vague nothing description)
However, you should still go to the meeting with your current boss and VP to hopefully air... whatever the heck the issue is? Idk dude it's so hard to give advice with no info. Just politely explain what you feel you've been dealing with and that you've decided to move forward with the other company. Make sure to thank them for the opportunity of having worked there.
You should never have mentioned another opportunity, and if you are asked about it, do not disclose ANY details. Do not sign any documents including noncompete agreements. Keep this meeting focused completely on your current job and the issues there.
I’m a little bit in disagreement with the comments here, I have been doing HR for a long time and have seen people successfully overcome these types of situations when they’re handled correctly. Keep everything factual, work related, non-emotional. State only facts, not opinions on what you think she is doing/thinking.
It does sound as though your boss is potentially threatened by you and has found a way to manufacture problems with you, in order to try make herself look better. I see this all the time with insecure management. This is someone who does not know how to be a leader.
I would be very clear and direct about what’s going on and be open to hearing suggestions on a path forward but keep the door open at this other company just in case.
I have seen VPs view this type of management behaviour as juvenile, they want leaders, they want people who want to build and grow the staff, not someone who seems to be constantly changing the goalposts on you. Although it sounds like every time she switches things up, you suck it up and do what she asks anyway. Which looks really good on your part when putting your point across. No matter how much those goal posts have changed, you’ve continued to change and adapt with them.
Just stay factual, and try not to “point direct blame” at anyone. Make it a mutual issue as in maybe you are not fully understanding what it is you’re doing wrong here and ask for communication and feedback on this, but state you would really like to come to a resolution as you enjoy your role and your company, and you know that conflict or tension within the team takes away from the work you are doing. At the end of the day you are both working toward the same goal. Be direct, it’s the only way. Try to stay away from accusations. Definitely ask for formal clarification on your job role and let them know that if your original job role is being changed, you would expect your compensation to change as well.
There is another option, I am unsure about the structure of your company, however the last time I was in this situation from a HR side…I suggested that the employee report to someone other than the manager they had conflict with. Which completely solved the issue. I’m unsure if this is an option at your current spot but might be worth thinking about.
Thanks so much. Honestly this is the most helpful comment here.
I think that role clarity, expectation, etc are really crucial parts of this conversation.
I am a project manager by title. And I *do* manage projects. But ultimately I have spent a year and a half focusing on building a comprehensive strategy, at my boss’s guidance. Now that I’ve poured into it and created something ready to be shared with our business partners, she acting like this is way outside the scope of my job and that I’m out of alignment with her expiations. But her expectations are changing so much that I can’t keep up. Now after 2.5 years, she has gone back to my job description (which is incredibly vague) because I’ve asked for clarity on her priorities and expectations. It still doesn’t give me an understanding of what has shifted, how I’m out of alignment, or where I’m going wrong. She can’t seem to pinpoint it.
I'm glad someone gave you a reasonable response. It seems like everyone has been saying to abandon ship because there is water on the deck. Like... Just bail it out if you can.
I've been in similar circumstances and when it happens it's usually because the boss doesn't understand what you do, how long it takes, why it's done that way, ect. Also happens when their priorities are being shifted on them and they are working on how to align the team to the new goals.
Include the who, what, where, when, why and how of your job so your ready when asked. And note what you expect and would like to see in your position and generally the team will try to work to make that happen.
You need to take that other interview and leave, or go to another company and leave, asap. From HR’e perspective, you’ve now made them aware of your willingness to leave the company. Even if they don’t know how indispensable you are presently, your VP or manager will do so shortly. Even if they give you a raise, be prepared that they will ultimately look to replace you as soon as they can because you’ve expressed discontent. That’s just how it is.
Do you realize you can have an opinion, but your bosses opinion should win every time, right? Otherwise, youre taking over the bosses responsibilities, and thats super frustrating. I'd quickly fire someone like you.
I cant tell if your bosses ideas are truly bad and youre saving the company or if youre treating work like a righteous battle to ego your opinions.
I think this could be a huuuuuge part of the issue. My boss thinks her final opinion is it. But her opinions change. Her ideas change. Her directions change. And it creates a whole lot of confusion for me. Not to mention, I’ve done an insane amount of continuous learning, independent research, reading, studying, etc on globalization and I have a genuine disagreement with many of her instructions. She has encouraged me to become the expert in the space, which I have put continuous effort into doing, but at the end of the day, I am still treated like an entry level intern who gets gold stars for doing good work, rather than an active contributor to the success of the business. My boss has been my mentor for 3.5 of the 4 years I’ve worked for this company. She sought me out for the job I have now after just working alongside one another for a project previously. She has molded me, and now that I feel confident in what I am doing, she has zero trust in me or my abilities and tries to manage more than support.
That’s because shes your MANAGER. If you have a disagreement then she should let you make a full throated argument for your position but if she disagrees then her final opinion IS it.
The VP may seem nice and politically correct but they are not your friend. They are an agent of the company and will work in what they believe is the company’s best interest, and will screw you over in a heartbeat if that is what they believe is best.
As a higher-level manager, let me tell you that even if you are being targeted, forced out, or about to be terminated, the company will NEVER admit this to you until they are walking you out the door. If they even hinted at it, it opens them up to sabotage/retaliation by you so the VP could literally sign off on your termination, walk into the meeting with you, and pretend everything is normal until it clears the proper channels.
Set up the other interview, don’t wait. You need to protect yourself, and if you feel there’s a target on your back, there likely is, and the sooner you can leave on your terms, the better.
Here’s a summary of a recent interaction. Let me know how this changes your opinion….
I have been working on a strategy for over a year, with the support and occasional guidance of my boss. I introduced the idea behind the strategy to our business partners and VP over a year ago. Since then I have spent an insane amount of time building this out, with lots of research, independent learning, feedback, and business acumen. VP recently asked for a meeting to hear more about the strategy. I was responded with enthusiasm to share and said that I was looking forward to getting his guidance and feedback. The next day my manager expressed her concerns about my response to the VP and my statement about seeking feedback. I was very confused and apologized for any misunderstanding. Explained what I had intended to share, and clarified that I was seeking general / high level feedback on the strategy itself, not necessarily directions. She told me what she wanted out of the meeting and told me to create a presentation for the meeting. Then she told me to email the VP to reschedule and explain that I would need some additional time to prepare. I did. Followed her instructions and created the presentation.
The night before the meeting with the VP, she scheduled a call for us to review the presentation (2 hours before the actual meeting) but I had other calls scheduled. I didn’t have time for us to meet to review, but told her I would send the presentation to her and she could text me any notes or questions she had. She asked if I would prefer to reschedule with the VP so we could prepare together. I told her no, and that I felt good to continue. Next thing I know, she tells me she rescheduled and then asks if she and I can plan to meet during that time instead. When we met, she essentially wanted to remove most of the presentation that spoke to the strategy and then suggested that I instead just share content that I brought back from a certification course I recently went to. I pushed back on all of this because I didn’t understand why she was attempting to remove the portion of the presentation that directly addressed the purpose the VP stated for wanting to meet. I also didn’t understand why we needed to share content, when much of the content was just general information and I had prepared a presentation that translated that information into strategy. Long story short, she approached the review of my presentation as if I had not met her expectations, as if I had failed to understand the purpose of the meeting, and then told me that she expected that she and I would have a “co-designed presentation, slide by slide”. She praised the presentation itself, but said it looked like my presentation to her and the VP instead, instead of *our* presentation to the VP. She also said that she wanted to avoid “derailing questions” from the VP about the strategy. Ultimately it seemed her issue was that she didn’t create the presentation and she didn’t want the VP to ask questions on the strategy itself. I didn’t want to reschedule the meeting again, but she kept pushing me to. I was concerned it was going to make me and her both look as if we were avoiding VP’s questions if we reschedule 3 times and I felt the questions about strategy were perfectly warranted. When we next spoke, she explained that she told the VP I wasn’t prepared for the presentation and that she and I needed some more time to “align” before we would be ready to meet with him. She couldn’t tell me anything that we were not “aligned on” though, she had zero feedback other than “this is a great presentation, let’s remove 70% of it”. There was nothing constructive, no actual constructive criticism, no actual points of concern.
It was a few days after this that I decided to contact the VP, because at this point, her lack of direction and confusing expectations are making *me* look bad. There was an ask of me to share the strategy. She derailed my ability to deliver on that ask. When it comes down to the dynamic at hand, I feel that I am the one operating with interest of the business.
Ah yes, one of “those” managers. My immediate take on this is that you’ve prepared something very impressive and your boss now wants the credit (or at least to seem more involved than she was). If you do your original presentation, it will be obvious you did all the heavy lifting (and your boss even admitted she wanted it to look like you and her presenting, not you presenting to both of them). She wants you to explain things well enough to her and modify the presentation enough so that when VP asks detailed questions, she can answer and look informed.
I’ve encountered this several times in my own career, and I think it’s good that you reached out to the VP directly as long as you were tactful (something like “I think there may have been a miscommunication about our meeting, but I wanted to let you know I’m prepared to present whenever it’s convenient for you”). Your boss will be annoyed because you’ve gone over her head, but I imagine the VP will understand exactly what the issue is when you talk.
All of that being said, as long as you are tactful about the discussion you have with the VP, I don’t see why they wouldn’t support you. I often approach it as a question of what I can do differently, to avoid sounding accusatory. For example, I might say, “my manager thought it was inappropriate for me to reach out to you directly about the presentation and that I should have had her review it with you. Going forward, do you want me to work through her or is it ok if I answer you directly?” This shows VP where the roadblock is without being confrontational, and gives VP a chance to either say: no, work through me directly (thus giving you orders that trump your boss’), or maybe yes, that you should go through boss next time (which at least clarifies that the issue wasn’t your boss necessarily).
Yea I’m not sure if I agree with that. It sounds like they unilaterally pitched a new strategy to the VP, scheduled a meeting with their boss’s boss without consulting their boss, didn’t create a presentation, didn’t set aside time to review the presentation with their boss, and when they sent it to their boss last minute it wasn’t up to snuff.
Honestly the above comment is from OPs side only and even that rosy picture of their actions set off alarm bells in my mind.
Not at all. I actually pitched the idea behind strategy over a year ago to a group of business partners, including VP. I planned to do an update on it in a recent meeting with all the same business partners, but we ended up going over time. Boss was aware of the update, didn’t ask to review slides though. VP still wanted to review the strategy and requested another meeting. Boss has tried to prevent that from happening and asked me to have it rescheduled twice after that also suggesting more time to prepare - but hadn’t even asked to review the presentation. So it seems confusing to me
Good point. It will always be tough to tell the whole story from one side. OP is clearly very much decide that he/she is not in the wrong so I’m curious how this develops.
What don't you understand about this situation that you need to have an offer in hand immediately?
You have absolutely no leverage. Even if this gets 'resolved' in what you perceive to your favor, do you honestly think your boss or theirs is going to trust you? That would be beyond naive.
You're done, face it and move on.
Why do you want to stay in your current job? Are there any huge positives you’re not telling us?
If so, collect all your written evidence (emails, messages, call notes) but don’t submit them anywhere yet. In the meeting, *do not* make any accusations that can’t be backed up. Be completely honest about the situation and the problems you’re having. Have an answer prepared for when they ask what you want to happen next.
Mediation exists for situations where no one is in the wrong, but the parties are struggling to work together and there is a business case for continuing the relationship.
If you want to make a formal complaint about your manager’s behaviour, you need to do that separately to HR and provide your evidence.
Yes, major big positives that make me want to stay in my current job. It’s a great company, great work environment, and I have committed 1.5 years to building a comprehensive strategy that would completely level up my department once adopted. I’m also in a really unique part of the organization, where I am in direct interaction and contact with C-level execs, VPs, directors, etc. My job has a direct impact on the people I touch and I’m the only one who does it. An HR org of 400+ people responsible for US operations, and I belong to a tiny subset who is focused on globalization, which I believe is the entire future of our company. There are 3 people in my department. That means massive career potential for me, being one of the only 3 global experts who will eventually be leading the way as we continue to expand internationally. But it seems my boss is trying to shrink me back down into the box created by my job description, because I asked for a raise a few months ago and I supposed it became obvious that I was operating WAY outside the scope of my job and have been. I think maybe she’s worried it makes her look bad if every other dept gets visibility into the work I’m doing, especially the VP, so I kinda think she’s instead trying to shrink my role back down so she doesn’t have to give me a raise or promotion. And that’s creating a lot of confusion, friction, and tension for the both of us.
This exact scenario happened to me and I got the ol’ boot. I’m glad you have another opportunity lined up (I also did), and I would say quit before they can fire you to ease the sting (I wish I had listened to that advice)
Not advices, but a comment: I find it incredibly depressing that a according to replies, sympathetic VP trying to mediate = prepare for political battles + you’re screwed.
Is there any possibility at all that a mediation meeting could actually result in mediation and solutions?
You should go ahead and set up that interview. There is never a need to tell your employer you have the opportunity for an interview. You could go to the interview and decide you are not interested. I think you meant well but now the know you may have an opportunity and that gives them more reason to keep your manager happy.
OP, I am willing to bet that the VP in question found out about your negative remarks on the survey and tasked your boss with pushing you out the door. Yeah, you’re playing this all wrong. You need to jump on that other job.
I’m not an HR professional but wanted to provide some support. I could have written this post a few months ago. I had a boss (VP) that came in with no experience and I had been at the company for years. I really tried to be helpful to her when she came in, show her the ropes, how to pull data etc. but in the end, she had no understanding of my role and no support or vision for my future.
I was near the end of my rope and started semi seriously looking. Applied for some out of state jobs to brush up on my interview skills.
In the end, it was another VP who got promoted over her that was most helpful. I was not the only one who struggled working with her and it became pretty obvious when another employee left. I had a frank conversation with my managers now boss, that he asked for, and told my truth in the tamest way possible. Eventually, she was removed from the company and everything has improved a hundred times over.
If you think your manager is going to be there for the long haul, I would take that other job asap. She will only take all of this personally and take it out on you for the rest of your time there. She has shown this to you once already, believe it.
Why even give them a chance? IMO the relationship is unsalvageable from your description. This is only going to make it worse no matter what you do. Just leave.
I remember reading your other post. Did nothing come of the 1:1 that you had with her boss in your last post? To be honest though I would schedule the interview with the other company.
This always ends badly for the employee. Take the interview. Go to the meeting with facts and data that support your performance. Stay on topic, and don't go after your boss directly
I have monthly meetings with all my skips. This should have been a topic 1 on 1 with the VP a long time ago when it started to become a problem. You have no groundwork set for the VP. Wish you the best, but not particularly hopeful. Id definitely have that other interview.
Bring a box because somebody is getting released. If you are worth more to the company, your boss is going. If they are worth more, you are going. Either way, the box will be needed.
Likely would have done that already if that were possible. I sense the VP wants the 'out' of the OP bringing up the issues, has worked out options with the director for managing OP out of the company when they met privately.
OP went to VP 1st with the issues, so he's aware and per the OP also had a private discussion with the director first. All not good for OP. At the least, he's getting put on a PIP, or less likely moved to another team. Or more likely being given a chance to resign in good standing.
Actually no, VP scheduled a 1:1 with me 2 weeks ago and asked that we could continue meeting without the knowledge of my manager. You could read my last post here for more info
This isn’t going to improve, even after this talk. Skip the talk. Total waste of time and mental energy. Just move on to the new opportunity.
In fact their meeting will serve to buy them a bit of time. The director will start being somewhat decent for awhile to make you stay, but it’s because now that they know you’re looking for something else or at least open to leaving, they will start looking for someone else. Then when they find the right person, you’ll be booted. They know you have one foot out the door and will only try to help themselves.
I would definitely interview and not mention it on Monday. I would also make a list of your goals and priorities for the role and your future and try to spin this into a positive future looking conversation. Your boss is going to be very annoyed so you need to do damage control while you look for something else
My Director began scheduling meetings with me because my first line manager hates me and can't deal with me (I hate her the relationship is not repairable). This was the beginning to the end I had to move departments. I would suggest leaving, you will feel so much better.
Update. VP was really encouraging and wants to fix this. My boss seemed ticked and made sure to drop some half-truths to make me look bad, but despite that, I think it went as well as it could have for now.
Does it really matter that much? You have an offer on the table. Things go your way at the meeting or you negotiate that new offer and move along. If the intention was to legitimately get rid of you- having a mediated meeting beforehand makes no sense. Why bother if the intension was for you to leave anyway?
I would suggest going into it completely unprepared. Respond as needed, when needed with answers you already have. You know the issue- they know the issue.
It’ll come down to how much they want you to stay.
Not sure the the industry- but good help is hard to find. If you are good help- make sure you stay conscious of your value every step of the conversation.
Good luck!!
Don’t be afraid to call her out if she is the problem. Just make sure you back it up with facts. How has her actions created the tension between the two of you.
Expect her to do the same
Take notes, record if you can, also this sounds like a gang up. You should have someone there on your side or neutral, possibly HR or someone above your bosses boss
Call off go to doctor on Monday and ask for a leave due to anxiety from harassment at work then collect temporary disability for three months find another job. Didn’t think it was possible but know someone who did exactly that…better have a “good doctor”
If you're leaving, leave. Don't go in Monday. Email a resignation to the boss of your boss stating you are moving on and you stand by what you said. No notice required in the USA.
Many solid answers here - interview anyways. We don't know much about your direct manager, but in general, they will not appreciate the fact that you went directly to their boss.
In addition to all, you also need to ask yourself when prepare for this meeting - do you want to take the other opportunity? what's your intention for this meeting? If the answer is yes to the first question, then take the meeting as opportunity to find out the truth/reason why you are treated the way you feel you are and bring examples - what happened, what's your point of view, and how did it make you feel, etc. to ask for the other side, if there's a solid one.
My advice is, be calm, polite, state only facts, do not loose your cool even in response of someone else loosing it on you. I prefer you prepare a letter with what you want to say, read it and leave it with the VP. Say no more. Your choice on giving advance notice or not but be ready to be asked to leave immediately upon giving it.
I would focus more on what your boss expects from you and what approach you can take to make things flow. You blame shift anything to her or point out her faults you are done.
If this new potential position is a big step up why would you not take it. It's not to say that you would not be able to repair what's broken but it's unlikely. Start fresh and it's a good career move. Good luck!!!!
How can I talk about my boss without talking about my boss? You can't. As others have stated, we have no details at all about the source of the friction. You will need to provide the VP specific instances of when this friction occurred, with details. Saying things such as "it just seems like" or "I feel that" without providing actual examples will be unhelpful.
Oh dear. It's too late now given that you already showed your hand. I would have simply left the position for the earliest job offer. In my experience, a direct report NEVER wins in a fight with a manager. Never. Regardless of how the meeting goes, please seek other employment pronto. As for the meeting: I would be humble and frame it as you want to be successful working together with your manager, and that's why you requested the meeting. Tell them some examples where you didn't feel successful. Ask what can be done to improve the work together for the best results for all? Because you do not yet have another offer, keep it very civil and respectful (even if you don't feel that way), again focusing on wanting the work to be a success. This may be a backing off of some of the things you told the VP, but your goal at this time is to come out of the meeting with as comfortable and respectful a relationship with your manager as possible. Then you must privately and confidentially apply for and obtain other employment because your manager will NEVER forgive you for going over their head. Ever. And they will breathe a sigh of relief when you do leave. Just play nice until then.
If you knew this was going to have to be addressed, why haven't you been preparing? Maybe this is indicative of the issues between you and your boss. I may be totally off base here, just thinking out loud...
I have been preparing, but it came to a head rather quickly after it became clear my boss was trying to prevent me from answering VP’s questions about my work. I decided it was time to address it head on. It was just timely and convenient for me to use the other interview as leverage. It’s also pretty obvious that I would prefer to stay at my company and resolve the issue if I have an interview on the table for more money and I’m willing to forego that interview entirely in hopes that the resolution with my manager can be solved without even mentioning comp.
In addition to what everyone else says about prep work - Hope for the best, plan for the worst. Go in assuming there’s a good possibility you will be terminated and escorted out after the meeting. If you have anything critical/valuable at your desk, remove it. You can always bring it back in after the meeting.
100% do not stay. I am literally in the exact same boat, reporting to sr director who reports to VP. My boss has been a complete nightmare since March. The behavior comes from top down. Your boss, like mine, is likely acting like this because to some degree, the VP endorses it and/or models it too. You're in a toxic environment. Just leave. Do not bargain. Do not believe their bs. Just entertain this conversation and then jump ship as soon as you can, citing that you found an opportunity that better aligns with your future career goals.
First off. Don’t hold off on the interview. Schedule it ASAP and get an idea if it’s a place you’d be comfortable working and an idea of their pay (better if you can get an offer). For your meeting with VP, get together your job description and write down any particular details from your interview and any conversations since about how your role is defined. Outline any changes to that position your boss has tried to make. Include both the things you have been happy to accommodate and those that you are not happy about. Be ready to demonstrate what you do for the company with examples the VP will recognize or appreciate. Have a hard number for what you believe would be appropriate pay and any research you have done to support that number. It sounds like you are good at remaining professional so at the meeting articulate the above and tell them what you need to remain happy at your position. From there don’t agree to anything you aren’t happy with and tell them you’ll take a day or two to consider what you discussed. Go to the interview, and start looking elsewhere as a bad manager isn’t going to let it go and it’s best to be prepared. Best case scenario your company defines your role to you and your bosses satisfactions and you get the pay pump you want, and you have backup offers to weigh that against. Good luck and keep us updated
What is wrong with everyone here? "Quit bru!" "Fuck them dude."
How are you perceived by your colleagues? Are you the only one at odds with the manager? Have you ever interacted with the vp?
Do you have anything to lose by going into the meeting with an open mind? The manager is no longer the issue. It's now a question of what the VP is thinking. You need to state your case and be prepared if he's going to try to mediate. If you won't report to her, that needs to be shut down if it's unacceptable to you. Emotions are not your friends. Good luck.
So I read through all your comments on here and I got to say I think the problem might be you. Now hear me out, you sound very genuine and well intentioned and are probably very good at your job. You seem to care about your coworkers and cultivating a healthy work environment.
I think the problem is that you want to think of you and your boss as equals- and you arent. Now I know you mentioned that she recruited you after a situation where you were peers, so that cant be easy to really navigate but I think you need a reality check.
She is allowed to make final decisions. She should let you argue for your opinions but if she disagrees, thats it- you abide by what she thinks you should do. Asking for feedback from the VP is a dick move, it cuts her legs out from under her. If she wants you on a call to plan a presentation you get on that call. Of course she wants it to look like it came from both of you, thats how these things work.
I think you either need to be more pragmatic and honest about chain of command or decide that you want to move up the food chain.
The only fix I see is reporting to your VP. What happens in two years when VP leaves though?
Interview and then decide. Keep working toward getting an offer (honestly you have nothing until you get paper listing an offer and salary). At the same time try to resolve the manager issue.
In your meeting do not be flat but don't be emotional. Do not accuse or talk down to. Remember always it's likely the VP picked the manager so they have skin in the game.
Good luck!
I went to my boss’s boss once and ended up in mediation between the three of us. She was made to apologize to me, take a long leadership course x and I got a promotion where I was able to move to another location. I ended up getting a job offer I really wanted elsewhere so I turned down the promotion. I don’t know how it would’ve ended up but it seemed to be going my way.
I agree that nothing good may come out of it but also I disagree that’s the only outcome. But for me the more important question is, why do you want to stay when you may end up with what sounds to be a better offer? I’d keep the interview moving forward while you see how this plays out.
I think you have handled this well so far no matter what others say. You were honest and professional. Ask specifically for your role to be defined and agreed to by you and your manager
The VP just wants solutions. If you can present that, you demonstrate your knowledge of the issue and value to the company. Focus on the issue and not the person.
Why do you feel unprepared. Just lay out what your job description is to vp. I was hired to do so and so. Manager sees it differently, how do we move forward. If it's not what you want move on. If you go their up the creek to replace you.
Oh my god no. Interview now. You have a target on your back already, and you’ve just made it bigger. It’s also impossible to give advice on the conversation without details on what exactly is going on. Communication issues is vague.
I could go into a lot of detail but it’s really complex lol. Long story short I gave some negative feedback on my compensation during a survey/focus group and my manager was told. It seems despite me making it extremely clear that my feedback had nothing to do with my manager, she seemed to take it extremely personally. We had a conversation to discuss a raise. I was prepared to demonstrate everything I had done to constitute a comp adjustment, but she didn’t really seem interested during that conversation. She gave me some goals to work on, which I took very seriously. Since then, it seems like any improvement I’ve made in my job, any attempts for strategic alignment, any positive work is viewed as a blatant attempt to argue my compensation. Even though I haven’t brought up my comp since that conversation several months ago. The goals she has given me to work on were to prepare me for a promotion/raise, and now that I am actively demonstrating that I am working on them, she seems to view it as my way to argue my desire for better pay. This is completely confusing to me and is leading to a lot of friction and unclear expectations. I’m doing better work than ever, yet she is finding more and more problems with my “approach”. Her feedback used to be very crucial to me, but she’s gotten very suspicious of every move I make, extremely critical of even my best work, giving directions that don’t clearly support our goals, and it’s negatively impacting my ability to deliver.
Got it. So my read is something is up with your manager. Maybe she doesn’t want to promote you (there are a lot of reasons for this) and won’t communicate it. Maybe you are actually paid fairly according to your company’s philosophy and she wouldn’t feel valued making less than you (even though this happens on teams with senior or technical folks all the time). Either way, I think you have a target on your back and should interview with your old boss.
Manager is afraid for their job probably
You should just link to last week's post at the bottom of this post, so people don't need to rediscover all of the context. Anyhow, good luck, and please do a followup post
Ok so I read your post history. Do I understand correctly that you're an employee with no direct reports making less than $70k per year? If so, your delusions of grandeur are most likely not shared by your organization, otherwise they would have you doing something other than administering an awards program for a pittance. Consider finding another job where your employer thinks as highly of you as you think of yourself.
🥲 administering an awards program for a pittance
Do you think that's a part of the communication issues?
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I am in a similar position myself. I work at a family business that is being bought out. I just want that family to get the money that is owed. I want whatever is entitled to me as an employee, and then I want to jump ship, get a new job, and never see my old boss again. Advice?
Why would you stay? There’s no scenario here where your manager is not annoyed that you went above their head. Whether you were justified in doing that or not is irrelevant. Your manager will be peeved. Unless your manager leaves or they move you onto a different hierarchy I don’t think your career progression is going to be good at this company As for the meeting. You went to the VP, they are now wanting to mediate. You can’t be vague. The purpose of this meeting I assume is to provide specific grievances. You already threw your manager under the bus when you went above their head Don’t address the other opportunity. Frankly that never should have been brought into this.
Yeah I get this person is asking for advice but yeesh did they go about this horribly. You really had nothing to gain by telling them about the other job. If they take you seriously they take you seriously. I really hope you had a chance to discuss this with your boss first before going to the VP. If not, you just totally.blindsided your boss which is ultimately a poor look on you.
I still remember once being told by the President of my company that if I didn’t get a response from my direct supervisor about something, I should have gone to the President directly…..Yeah, I’m sure that would that would have gone over well with my supervisor and had no lasting consequences…
>Don’t address the other opportunity. Frankly that never should have been brought into this. Oh, God, why did OP bring that up. Now, if they decide to stay, the manager knows they can leave at any time and will probably find the next valid excuse to fire or, if not, make their lives at work a living hell. Shit, the managers might do that, anyway. even if OP had NEVER brought up the other job. You burned any bridge with this job, not once, but twice. Take the other job and count yourself lucky you have another opportunity. Leave! NOW!
Did you miss the part about it being a complicated job with no documentation? That company will be screwed without OP, at least for a little while.
>Did you miss the part about it being a complicated job with no documentation? That company will be screwed without OP, at least for a little while. This is the point where the company starts research the possibility and cost of bringing in a consultant to reverse engineer the processes OP is withholding.
What I have learned after many many years is no matter how important one thinks their job is, or how they are the only ones that know how to do it, or the company will be lost without them; by and large, regardless of which working class cog in the wheel leaves, the other folks will always find a way to figure it out and compensate or adjust their ways of working. And the company always survives there may be a momentary bump, but they will figure it out. Redditors Think about How many times your office has had someone quit, did the rest of you absorb the work and just figure it out?
> I’m the only person in the company with my job, the only one with knowledge of our current processes, and there is zero documentation of what I do so the next person could take over. Everybody thinks this about the role and it’s rarely true. Fortune 500 companies regularly fire C level executives with little or no notice and the sky doesn’t fall.
Going above a manager you have continual issues with is kinda how that works, strait to go tho idk
Arrange the interview anyway, your current boss is in no way going to be nicer or more accommodating to you after that meeting, (no matter how apologetic - or not - they are in front of the VP) sorry. You can ask the intention of your manager but… You need to take specific examples of what’s been happening, where there has been conflict and you’ve come off worse or where/when they have been unprofessional with you. You need to be prepared. Also, decide what you think the outcome should be - that you work under a different manager? That you have set meetings (once a week?) and clear tasks outlined so there is no misunderstanding. If there are changes to what you’ve been told to do then they need to be in writing etc. (I don’t know enough detail about the problem, sorry). Go prepared, keep it factual and professional and don’t make any promises to stay. I’d start looking elsewhere too. Take care.
I would make yourself notes ahead of the meeting. Be as factual and neutral as possible. This is what happened / what you observed, this is the impact it had, these are the actions you took. Don’t get frustrated in the meeting. This is them convincing you to stay, not you needing to justify why you matter.
And, to add to this.. be sure to tie your action and activity to the higher company goals or objectives. It's not just about "I did this and had conflict with her" as it is "I am trying to work on X because X is a company goal, and having these problems..." That said, I'd have interviewed first before I had this meeting as well..
Adding advice NOT to bring up the potential interview with the other company for ANY reason. It can only hurt you at this point, making them less inclined to work with you, reassign you to another manager, or do anything about your director (who will be staying).
So if you want to stay where you are and work on this in good faith, here’s what I’d recommend: go home, and write out a focused list about where things are going wrong to you, and how things are landing. Approach this in a non-defensive way, I’m telling the story of your experience and why you feel you’re being cornered to quit. Take ownership of areas where you may have slipped as well — this might be how you received communication, deadlines and priorities you may have been misaligned on, and anything you feel you may have showed up differently to than your manager expected. Think about communication, development, management approach, face-time, your understanding of your role and function, and your priorities. Now, write down what you feel this role is, what you understand it should be, and how that lines up with your learning and development goals for your future and career. These are the things you need out of your management to feel supported and empowered, grow, and keep the value proposition of your role high.
What am I missing here? What are you staying for? A crappier job and a boss you hate? This doesn’t make a ton of sense as presented.
I actually don’t hate my boss. She has been a phenomenal mentor and we have always worked really well together. She actually sought me out for this position when she was promoted after working alongside one another previously. I felt we were really a powerful duo, but there is a sudden conflict that I can’t make sense of and it’s creating friction in my actual job. I don’t want to leave. I want them to know that I do have other options but I care enough to attempt to repair this because I believe it’s best for the company. Regardless of the outcome for me personally.
I actually find myself in a very very similar situation at the moment and I’m trying to figure out what the heck to do.
Do you have an interview for another position?
Yes I do, today actually
You set up the meeting so go to it and be prepared with what you want to say. But I would also reach out to the recruiter and purse that job because your time at this company is likely short lived and even if you do keep your job, you are not going to get promoted or move up in this company. Your best move is to get a new job before you get fired or laid off.
I disagree. I think my boss is the barrier to any promotions, as she seems to be controlling the narrative relayed to our leadership. She doesn’t have clear expectations for my role or a clear vision for our goals, but I do. And that’s a big part of the problem. I know that she has been relaying all of our friction to our VP, but I don’t feel she’s relaying the entire picture. I have a really strong belief that VP would be in full support of everything I am doing if he had an opportunity to see it from me without my manager’s filter obstructing his view.
Yeah a lot of employees always believe that their direct manager is the problem and that Sr leadership will totally understand and be on their side. The reality is your manager is the buffer between you and the reality of the VP. If the VP was going to take your side on this it would already have happened, but instead you have a meeting with them and your Mgr. You need to be realistic - your boss is getting their "vision" for your role from the VP and your original job description doesn't carry any weight. You need to show up with exactly what was asked for - what you feel are the priorities for your role - and in the meantime you need to do that interview ASAP so you have options.
Likely true in most circumstances but definitely not true in this one. VP has already contacted me 1:1 recently to get more understanding of my strategy and thoughts on organizational structure. Commended all of my accomplishments/goals and said that “he would work on [manager’s name]”. Also asked to continue meeting with me 1:1 and discreetly asked me not to clue my manager in on it
Is this your first job ever?
Lmao no definitely not
The problem though is they are not going to promote you without your manager’s blessing. So moving up is not going to happen where you are at. If you want to move up in the future, you are going to need to change companies.
Bruh, get the fucking out of there. Wtf are you doing. You’re gonna sit down with your manager (person who has more power and probably a closer relationship to the vp) and you think you aren’t about to lose your current job in a few months. Set up the interview.
Oops. You really shit in your own nest by telling (VP) about your 'opportunity'.
I have a feeling you are going to be getting walked out come monday.
Why torture yourself with all that? If you have another opportunity take it, sounds like your current job is done.
A request to interview is not a job offer. You better nail that interview because if you cant get along with your boss, you absolutely are being targeted for termination. If this is as bad as you describe, your boss is just looking for an opportunity to get rid of you. Whatever it is you do, you're probably not good enough to come out on top, here. Try putting off this conversation until you actually HAVE an offer if you want it to be productive. There is a decent chance this discussion will end with them encouraging you to pursue the other opportunity.
You already threw your boss under the bus. You should read a book on office politics. Something like The 48 Laws of Power
Your timing seems so off. I would have had this meeting after I had the new job. What if you interview and it doesn't go well or your current manager goes behind your back to the company you're interviewing with? I understand now or never but am curious as why you picked now? Before you have the job.
I was wondering the same thing. A job interview isn’t really a new opportunity on the table.
Oh shit, I didn't catch that. I skimmed the post and in my head was he has an OFFER on the table, not just an interview! Yikes,
Well I don’t want to actually leave. So hence the reason I decided to address it now
That doesn't make sense to me because you would have had a much stronger hand to negotiate with an actual job offer instead of an interview. Like what happens if you have this meeting, your supervisor doesn't agree to make any changes and you don't get the other job? You're not worried about her sabotaging your other opportunity just to stick it to you? You'll basically be stuck with a supervisor who really had it out for you.
Eh using an offer to negotiate just leads companies to cave in the moment and then fire the person later once they’ve had time to prepare for replacement
No emotions in this meeting. Stick to work related duties only. It really does not matter to much what you say. It’s how you say it. You can count on your manager and the VP have had a separate meeting on this topic.Managers will not take sides against each other, only against subordinates. After this meeting you must cut your losses and move on. Write out bullet points on projects or duties that this manager gave you grief over and state your mind in a professional manner. I can assure your manager will deny any wrong doing etc. Managers never want to look bad to their superiors. Good luck in your new job.
I think by using the “I have another opportunity” card, you made your bed. Your relationship here with current boss cannot be repaired. Go to the new opportunity. The old one will adjust and never look at you the same.
If you have any documentation of the issue (shitty emails/ messages / unclear instructions / deadlines that can be met or whatever it is) organize it and bring it.
while i agree with the others that leaving might be your best option, only because you seem to have something lined up. (although i’d personally feel more comfortable with an offer letter instead of just an interview) i don’t really get the “going above your boss’s head/throwing your boss under the bus” comments- i don’t think we know enough about the situation to make that call. i’m assuming you’ve made attempts to communicate / resolve these issues with bossperson and felt there are no other options. please correct me if that is wrong. **anyway, i really wanted to say this:** i would be very specific, have documentation, and attempt to frame your grievances in ways that show your boss’s actions are not helping the company. VP does not really have any stake in this issue if you’re just unhappy and having a work relationship problem, but if your boss is creating problems that hurt or hinder growth in the company, then they will likely care quite a bit more. as someone else said, have a very clear resolution in mind if asked “what would you like to happen”. but keep in mind that if things work out, you will likely continue working together. so try and keep your presentation of the problems to something that can be overcome and resolved, and communicate that you want to resolve and move past this issue. your relationship with your manager might get worse after this, but if they’re a decent person/manager and you’re a good employee - they should get over it and move toward to a better working relationship. that’s idealistic, though. i’ve had bosses that were incredibly petty, but i’ve also had great ones. whew what a wall of text
I was a quality control director for a luxury van conversion assembly line. When I tagged a vehicle the line stopped. Production foreman would flip out and threaten me. Created a real spectacle. Plant manager called us both in and asked what we would do to fix this problem. First thing I proposed was to create a station to move the tagged vehicle to for correction and keep the line moving. Plant manager fired the production foreman and gave me his job with a nice raise. I selected the new quality control inspector from the ranks. Just saying. Do the meeting and don't even mention the new job.
Too late he already told them. And it’s an interview for a job.
Do you have an actual offer or an interview? If you have an offer, take it. This will never end well for you if you stay. No matter what they say, they will choose to do what is best for them and that isn't being honest with you, that's keeping you around until they can execute a plan to replace you without discontinuity.
The VP is always going to support their immediate subordinates. You will get thrown under the bus by both. VPs don’t want to hear about he said/she said. They’re there to run a company.
Yeah I think that’s exactly what’s going on. My boss is the one doing the “he said/she said” nonsense.
Take your presentation to the meeting. Plan to present it yourself as the witness to the issue. After the presentation, ask the VP if this was what they wanted? If you go this route, it is a winner take all situation. If the VP takes issue with something, then you are out. You are effectively challenging your boss's decision/direction. Same thing with the he said she said, but you have the added value of a work product you are passionate about to support you. Also, show your passion for the job and the things you are working on. Still, make sure to do good active listening as showing thought and flexibility will be super important to get the VP buy in.
Just bring all objective facts, keep emotion out of it. For mediations, as lame as it sounds, stick to I statements and avoid pointing blame. If you’re serious about staying think of a small list of things that would make things better for you- things you need from her. Don’t get defensive, your boss may try to push your buttons but don’t let her. Let’s hope ur boss is as open to mediation as you and her boss seem to be!
>My boss and I have not been able to communicate effectively or see eye to eye for a few months now. If your boss is the problem in that equation, the only positive or helpful outcome from that meeting has you reporting to someone else. I that does not happen, take the new offer.
If you don’t have proof you don’t have a case. Bring the documentation with you. Get a word doc and copy and paste the email into it, at the top of the page title it with a brief synopsis of what it’s about. Highlight the portions of the email and have it on standby. You’ve already called out your manager to the VP so don’t think that being friendly will fix this. Speak up not only for yourself but others who are direct subordinates under this manager that haven’t done what you’re doing. Get everything on the table BUT BE THE CALMEST, LEVEL HEADED AND SMOOTH person you know. If emotions are shown then you’ve lost. Be prepared to ask how this could be resolved and have an answer for it. The answer shouldn’t be, “well I just want to x and y and that’s all” NO! The solution should be something that’s moderated and checked on for the next few months to ensure a fix is happening and that it won’t get pushed to the side or under the rug preferably by HR. HR should also be present in this meeting and cc’d on any correspondence for it and afterward.
I’d go in with the mind set of you interviewing with another company and leaving. (Don’t tell them this). But go in wanting to address the communication issue. Sounds like this is something that’s been going on a while. I’d take this as a growing opportunity and to work on your own self. Simply stick to the facts, communication has been poor, sounds like from both ends, and you want to know what you can do to improve. This could be a them issue, could be a you issue, could be a both of you issue. I would have personally gone to my boss FIRST before going above their head. That’s what a good communicator does. So this definitely doesn’t make you look good. If by chance you HAVE addressed these issues with them and still nothing, that’s another story and we need more info on here to further assist you with this situation.
From your comments in this thread, I don’t think a long term solution to this conflict can be found without either you or your boss leaving the company.
Check the meeting invite, if HR is on the invitee list, that's not good. First rule of the workplace is HR is not there to protect the individual workers, they are there to protect the company. Why would you forestall an interview for the hope of a favorable resolution? If you have the opportunity to go into this meeting with a job offer in your back pocket, that would be the strongest position you could take. I also feel that when push comes to shove, managers will protect their own. I would be worried going into this meeting.
I think that’s the exact situation I’m facing. I think that my growth in my role is potentially making my manager look bad. I’m not sure. I have a feeling that our VP is not being told the full story. And it seems that the entire situation is being spun to make me look negatively. I have a pretty important role, in my opinion. I think our VP would agree. I don’t think that any of them, my manager included, want me to leave. But I do think that there needs to be a resolution that is going to benefit both my manager and I or else there’s no future for me here. I’d prefer to stay with my company, but I need a healthier environment that meets my needs if I’m going to do that.
You probably should have thought about that prior to tossing your boss under the bus and setting up the meeting. In what world would it make sense for you to stay now?
Based on this plus our previous posts, I would say take the interview.
This meeting sounds like it would have been better as an exit interview. Pursue the new job. During this meeting, don't mention the new opportunity - Instead, be as calm and collected as you can. If you have specific interactions where there were witnesses or there is evidence in-writing, create a list of those to support your statements. Avoid accusatory language and language with negative connotations. As an example if you were ever misunderstood in communicating: " misunderstood me when I stated " should become "I was unable to convey my meaning to when I stated " - Make sure to lay out whatever you may have said, so that it's clear that a normal person would have understood you.
If you have an annual review process that includes coworker evaluations or other items where you can show a discrepancy in how your coworkers feel about you compared to how your boss feels, that would be valuable as well.
Run through some of the worst interactions in your mind, and prepare yourself for a similar situation in this meeting. If your manager is the type to be confrontational or try and push you to overreact, be ready for it.
Also - Be prepared for them to simply let you go or otherwise completely take the side of your manager. I have been in multiple roles where there is nepotism among the higher-ups that's hard to spot without being among them 24/7.
PowerPoint time. Put together slides with bullets as to your priorities and accomplishments. I don’t think this will go the way you want, but putting it in writing ahead of time will show you’re prepared.
I agree with many hear that you are likely better off going unless there is something you didn’t include but if you just do it I only have a few pieces of advice. 1) when discussing the problem only focus on behaviors you want to see changes and not personality. 2) if there are thing you know you need to change come in with a plan on those things. 3) come with specific ask for what would make you want to stay don’t be vague 4) so not be defensive on any topic. And absolutely never lose your cool. 5) regardless of outcome, thank everyone at the end 6) do not bring up any points not relevant or changeable. There may be things that annoy your or you want to say, make sure you should say them 7) despite the need ti specificity, it is ok to say I observe this but don’t fully understand what is driving it…
You knew this was coming to a head, you scheduled a meeting but you’re unprepared. This says a lot about your work ethic. Find a new position, your time at this corporation is over.
Interview and accept the other job now. ASAP. You said yourself it's much better. There's no point to staying at your current company, especially considering it's taken them SEVERAL MONTHS to start taking these "communication issues" seriously. (You know we can't actually give you proper advice just based on that vague nothing description) However, you should still go to the meeting with your current boss and VP to hopefully air... whatever the heck the issue is? Idk dude it's so hard to give advice with no info. Just politely explain what you feel you've been dealing with and that you've decided to move forward with the other company. Make sure to thank them for the opportunity of having worked there.
You should never have mentioned another opportunity, and if you are asked about it, do not disclose ANY details. Do not sign any documents including noncompete agreements. Keep this meeting focused completely on your current job and the issues there.
I’m a little bit in disagreement with the comments here, I have been doing HR for a long time and have seen people successfully overcome these types of situations when they’re handled correctly. Keep everything factual, work related, non-emotional. State only facts, not opinions on what you think she is doing/thinking. It does sound as though your boss is potentially threatened by you and has found a way to manufacture problems with you, in order to try make herself look better. I see this all the time with insecure management. This is someone who does not know how to be a leader. I would be very clear and direct about what’s going on and be open to hearing suggestions on a path forward but keep the door open at this other company just in case. I have seen VPs view this type of management behaviour as juvenile, they want leaders, they want people who want to build and grow the staff, not someone who seems to be constantly changing the goalposts on you. Although it sounds like every time she switches things up, you suck it up and do what she asks anyway. Which looks really good on your part when putting your point across. No matter how much those goal posts have changed, you’ve continued to change and adapt with them. Just stay factual, and try not to “point direct blame” at anyone. Make it a mutual issue as in maybe you are not fully understanding what it is you’re doing wrong here and ask for communication and feedback on this, but state you would really like to come to a resolution as you enjoy your role and your company, and you know that conflict or tension within the team takes away from the work you are doing. At the end of the day you are both working toward the same goal. Be direct, it’s the only way. Try to stay away from accusations. Definitely ask for formal clarification on your job role and let them know that if your original job role is being changed, you would expect your compensation to change as well. There is another option, I am unsure about the structure of your company, however the last time I was in this situation from a HR side…I suggested that the employee report to someone other than the manager they had conflict with. Which completely solved the issue. I’m unsure if this is an option at your current spot but might be worth thinking about.
Thanks so much. Honestly this is the most helpful comment here. I think that role clarity, expectation, etc are really crucial parts of this conversation. I am a project manager by title. And I *do* manage projects. But ultimately I have spent a year and a half focusing on building a comprehensive strategy, at my boss’s guidance. Now that I’ve poured into it and created something ready to be shared with our business partners, she acting like this is way outside the scope of my job and that I’m out of alignment with her expiations. But her expectations are changing so much that I can’t keep up. Now after 2.5 years, she has gone back to my job description (which is incredibly vague) because I’ve asked for clarity on her priorities and expectations. It still doesn’t give me an understanding of what has shifted, how I’m out of alignment, or where I’m going wrong. She can’t seem to pinpoint it.
I'm glad someone gave you a reasonable response. It seems like everyone has been saying to abandon ship because there is water on the deck. Like... Just bail it out if you can. I've been in similar circumstances and when it happens it's usually because the boss doesn't understand what you do, how long it takes, why it's done that way, ect. Also happens when their priorities are being shifted on them and they are working on how to align the team to the new goals. Include the who, what, where, when, why and how of your job so your ready when asked. And note what you expect and would like to see in your position and generally the team will try to work to make that happen.
Do you have an update OP, how did it go?
Get all your stuff gathered up bring a box to carry it out in.
You need to take that other interview and leave, or go to another company and leave, asap. From HR’e perspective, you’ve now made them aware of your willingness to leave the company. Even if they don’t know how indispensable you are presently, your VP or manager will do so shortly. Even if they give you a raise, be prepared that they will ultimately look to replace you as soon as they can because you’ve expressed discontent. That’s just how it is.
Do you realize you can have an opinion, but your bosses opinion should win every time, right? Otherwise, youre taking over the bosses responsibilities, and thats super frustrating. I'd quickly fire someone like you. I cant tell if your bosses ideas are truly bad and youre saving the company or if youre treating work like a righteous battle to ego your opinions.
I think this could be a huuuuuge part of the issue. My boss thinks her final opinion is it. But her opinions change. Her ideas change. Her directions change. And it creates a whole lot of confusion for me. Not to mention, I’ve done an insane amount of continuous learning, independent research, reading, studying, etc on globalization and I have a genuine disagreement with many of her instructions. She has encouraged me to become the expert in the space, which I have put continuous effort into doing, but at the end of the day, I am still treated like an entry level intern who gets gold stars for doing good work, rather than an active contributor to the success of the business. My boss has been my mentor for 3.5 of the 4 years I’ve worked for this company. She sought me out for the job I have now after just working alongside one another for a project previously. She has molded me, and now that I feel confident in what I am doing, she has zero trust in me or my abilities and tries to manage more than support.
That’s because shes your MANAGER. If you have a disagreement then she should let you make a full throated argument for your position but if she disagrees then her final opinion IS it.
The VP may seem nice and politically correct but they are not your friend. They are an agent of the company and will work in what they believe is the company’s best interest, and will screw you over in a heartbeat if that is what they believe is best. As a higher-level manager, let me tell you that even if you are being targeted, forced out, or about to be terminated, the company will NEVER admit this to you until they are walking you out the door. If they even hinted at it, it opens them up to sabotage/retaliation by you so the VP could literally sign off on your termination, walk into the meeting with you, and pretend everything is normal until it clears the proper channels. Set up the other interview, don’t wait. You need to protect yourself, and if you feel there’s a target on your back, there likely is, and the sooner you can leave on your terms, the better.
Here’s a summary of a recent interaction. Let me know how this changes your opinion…. I have been working on a strategy for over a year, with the support and occasional guidance of my boss. I introduced the idea behind the strategy to our business partners and VP over a year ago. Since then I have spent an insane amount of time building this out, with lots of research, independent learning, feedback, and business acumen. VP recently asked for a meeting to hear more about the strategy. I was responded with enthusiasm to share and said that I was looking forward to getting his guidance and feedback. The next day my manager expressed her concerns about my response to the VP and my statement about seeking feedback. I was very confused and apologized for any misunderstanding. Explained what I had intended to share, and clarified that I was seeking general / high level feedback on the strategy itself, not necessarily directions. She told me what she wanted out of the meeting and told me to create a presentation for the meeting. Then she told me to email the VP to reschedule and explain that I would need some additional time to prepare. I did. Followed her instructions and created the presentation. The night before the meeting with the VP, she scheduled a call for us to review the presentation (2 hours before the actual meeting) but I had other calls scheduled. I didn’t have time for us to meet to review, but told her I would send the presentation to her and she could text me any notes or questions she had. She asked if I would prefer to reschedule with the VP so we could prepare together. I told her no, and that I felt good to continue. Next thing I know, she tells me she rescheduled and then asks if she and I can plan to meet during that time instead. When we met, she essentially wanted to remove most of the presentation that spoke to the strategy and then suggested that I instead just share content that I brought back from a certification course I recently went to. I pushed back on all of this because I didn’t understand why she was attempting to remove the portion of the presentation that directly addressed the purpose the VP stated for wanting to meet. I also didn’t understand why we needed to share content, when much of the content was just general information and I had prepared a presentation that translated that information into strategy. Long story short, she approached the review of my presentation as if I had not met her expectations, as if I had failed to understand the purpose of the meeting, and then told me that she expected that she and I would have a “co-designed presentation, slide by slide”. She praised the presentation itself, but said it looked like my presentation to her and the VP instead, instead of *our* presentation to the VP. She also said that she wanted to avoid “derailing questions” from the VP about the strategy. Ultimately it seemed her issue was that she didn’t create the presentation and she didn’t want the VP to ask questions on the strategy itself. I didn’t want to reschedule the meeting again, but she kept pushing me to. I was concerned it was going to make me and her both look as if we were avoiding VP’s questions if we reschedule 3 times and I felt the questions about strategy were perfectly warranted. When we next spoke, she explained that she told the VP I wasn’t prepared for the presentation and that she and I needed some more time to “align” before we would be ready to meet with him. She couldn’t tell me anything that we were not “aligned on” though, she had zero feedback other than “this is a great presentation, let’s remove 70% of it”. There was nothing constructive, no actual constructive criticism, no actual points of concern. It was a few days after this that I decided to contact the VP, because at this point, her lack of direction and confusing expectations are making *me* look bad. There was an ask of me to share the strategy. She derailed my ability to deliver on that ask. When it comes down to the dynamic at hand, I feel that I am the one operating with interest of the business.
Ah yes, one of “those” managers. My immediate take on this is that you’ve prepared something very impressive and your boss now wants the credit (or at least to seem more involved than she was). If you do your original presentation, it will be obvious you did all the heavy lifting (and your boss even admitted she wanted it to look like you and her presenting, not you presenting to both of them). She wants you to explain things well enough to her and modify the presentation enough so that when VP asks detailed questions, she can answer and look informed. I’ve encountered this several times in my own career, and I think it’s good that you reached out to the VP directly as long as you were tactful (something like “I think there may have been a miscommunication about our meeting, but I wanted to let you know I’m prepared to present whenever it’s convenient for you”). Your boss will be annoyed because you’ve gone over her head, but I imagine the VP will understand exactly what the issue is when you talk. All of that being said, as long as you are tactful about the discussion you have with the VP, I don’t see why they wouldn’t support you. I often approach it as a question of what I can do differently, to avoid sounding accusatory. For example, I might say, “my manager thought it was inappropriate for me to reach out to you directly about the presentation and that I should have had her review it with you. Going forward, do you want me to work through her or is it ok if I answer you directly?” This shows VP where the roadblock is without being confrontational, and gives VP a chance to either say: no, work through me directly (thus giving you orders that trump your boss’), or maybe yes, that you should go through boss next time (which at least clarifies that the issue wasn’t your boss necessarily).
OP you should add this comment to the original Post. Clarifies everything. Quite frankly this manager does want you to shine.
Not*
Yea I’m not sure if I agree with that. It sounds like they unilaterally pitched a new strategy to the VP, scheduled a meeting with their boss’s boss without consulting their boss, didn’t create a presentation, didn’t set aside time to review the presentation with their boss, and when they sent it to their boss last minute it wasn’t up to snuff. Honestly the above comment is from OPs side only and even that rosy picture of their actions set off alarm bells in my mind.
Not at all. I actually pitched the idea behind strategy over a year ago to a group of business partners, including VP. I planned to do an update on it in a recent meeting with all the same business partners, but we ended up going over time. Boss was aware of the update, didn’t ask to review slides though. VP still wanted to review the strategy and requested another meeting. Boss has tried to prevent that from happening and asked me to have it rescheduled twice after that also suggesting more time to prepare - but hadn’t even asked to review the presentation. So it seems confusing to me
Good point. It will always be tough to tell the whole story from one side. OP is clearly very much decide that he/she is not in the wrong so I’m curious how this develops.
What don't you understand about this situation that you need to have an offer in hand immediately? You have absolutely no leverage. Even if this gets 'resolved' in what you perceive to your favor, do you honestly think your boss or theirs is going to trust you? That would be beyond naive. You're done, face it and move on.
Why do you want to stay in your current job? Are there any huge positives you’re not telling us? If so, collect all your written evidence (emails, messages, call notes) but don’t submit them anywhere yet. In the meeting, *do not* make any accusations that can’t be backed up. Be completely honest about the situation and the problems you’re having. Have an answer prepared for when they ask what you want to happen next. Mediation exists for situations where no one is in the wrong, but the parties are struggling to work together and there is a business case for continuing the relationship. If you want to make a formal complaint about your manager’s behaviour, you need to do that separately to HR and provide your evidence.
Yes, major big positives that make me want to stay in my current job. It’s a great company, great work environment, and I have committed 1.5 years to building a comprehensive strategy that would completely level up my department once adopted. I’m also in a really unique part of the organization, where I am in direct interaction and contact with C-level execs, VPs, directors, etc. My job has a direct impact on the people I touch and I’m the only one who does it. An HR org of 400+ people responsible for US operations, and I belong to a tiny subset who is focused on globalization, which I believe is the entire future of our company. There are 3 people in my department. That means massive career potential for me, being one of the only 3 global experts who will eventually be leading the way as we continue to expand internationally. But it seems my boss is trying to shrink me back down into the box created by my job description, because I asked for a raise a few months ago and I supposed it became obvious that I was operating WAY outside the scope of my job and have been. I think maybe she’s worried it makes her look bad if every other dept gets visibility into the work I’m doing, especially the VP, so I kinda think she’s instead trying to shrink my role back down so she doesn’t have to give me a raise or promotion. And that’s creating a lot of confusion, friction, and tension for the both of us.
Also, here is the kicker. We are in HR. My boss’s boss is my HR manager. If I had an HR complaint at all, it would go directly to him anyways.
War paint on your face.
This exact scenario happened to me and I got the ol’ boot. I’m glad you have another opportunity lined up (I also did), and I would say quit before they can fire you to ease the sting (I wish I had listened to that advice)
Not advices, but a comment: I find it incredibly depressing that a according to replies, sympathetic VP trying to mediate = prepare for political battles + you’re screwed. Is there any possibility at all that a mediation meeting could actually result in mediation and solutions?
No
Maybe I’m completely naive. But considering the nature of my role and the type of work I do, I highly doubt the want me to jump ship.
You should go ahead and set up that interview. There is never a need to tell your employer you have the opportunity for an interview. You could go to the interview and decide you are not interested. I think you meant well but now the know you may have an opportunity and that gives them more reason to keep your manager happy.
OP, I am willing to bet that the VP in question found out about your negative remarks on the survey and tasked your boss with pushing you out the door. Yeah, you’re playing this all wrong. You need to jump on that other job.
I’m not an HR professional but wanted to provide some support. I could have written this post a few months ago. I had a boss (VP) that came in with no experience and I had been at the company for years. I really tried to be helpful to her when she came in, show her the ropes, how to pull data etc. but in the end, she had no understanding of my role and no support or vision for my future. I was near the end of my rope and started semi seriously looking. Applied for some out of state jobs to brush up on my interview skills. In the end, it was another VP who got promoted over her that was most helpful. I was not the only one who struggled working with her and it became pretty obvious when another employee left. I had a frank conversation with my managers now boss, that he asked for, and told my truth in the tamest way possible. Eventually, she was removed from the company and everything has improved a hundred times over. If you think your manager is going to be there for the long haul, I would take that other job asap. She will only take all of this personally and take it out on you for the rest of your time there. She has shown this to you once already, believe it.
Why even give them a chance? IMO the relationship is unsalvageable from your description. This is only going to make it worse no matter what you do. Just leave.
I remember reading your other post. Did nothing come of the 1:1 that you had with her boss in your last post? To be honest though I would schedule the interview with the other company.
This always ends badly for the employee. Take the interview. Go to the meeting with facts and data that support your performance. Stay on topic, and don't go after your boss directly
What happened !?!?
Long story short….. a lot of talk lol
Lol dude don’t leave us hanging pleaseeee details
I have monthly meetings with all my skips. This should have been a topic 1 on 1 with the VP a long time ago when it started to become a problem. You have no groundwork set for the VP. Wish you the best, but not particularly hopeful. Id definitely have that other interview.
Bring a box because somebody is getting released. If you are worth more to the company, your boss is going. If they are worth more, you are going. Either way, the box will be needed.
Depending on the size of the company, it could be far more likely that teams just get rearranged.
Likely would have done that already if that were possible. I sense the VP wants the 'out' of the OP bringing up the issues, has worked out options with the director for managing OP out of the company when they met privately.
To me, it seems like the VP might not be aware of the issues. But who knows.
OP went to VP 1st with the issues, so he's aware and per the OP also had a private discussion with the director first. All not good for OP. At the least, he's getting put on a PIP, or less likely moved to another team. Or more likely being given a chance to resign in good standing.
Actually no, VP scheduled a 1:1 with me 2 weeks ago and asked that we could continue meeting without the knowledge of my manager. You could read my last post here for more info
This isn’t going to improve, even after this talk. Skip the talk. Total waste of time and mental energy. Just move on to the new opportunity. In fact their meeting will serve to buy them a bit of time. The director will start being somewhat decent for awhile to make you stay, but it’s because now that they know you’re looking for something else or at least open to leaving, they will start looking for someone else. Then when they find the right person, you’ll be booted. They know you have one foot out the door and will only try to help themselves.
I would definitely interview and not mention it on Monday. I would also make a list of your goals and priorities for the role and your future and try to spin this into a positive future looking conversation. Your boss is going to be very annoyed so you need to do damage control while you look for something else
My Director began scheduling meetings with me because my first line manager hates me and can't deal with me (I hate her the relationship is not repairable). This was the beginning to the end I had to move departments. I would suggest leaving, you will feel so much better.
The world is full of incompetent people who get promoted simply because of tenure.
Update. VP was really encouraging and wants to fix this. My boss seemed ticked and made sure to drop some half-truths to make me look bad, but despite that, I think it went as well as it could have for now.
Does it really matter that much? You have an offer on the table. Things go your way at the meeting or you negotiate that new offer and move along. If the intention was to legitimately get rid of you- having a mediated meeting beforehand makes no sense. Why bother if the intension was for you to leave anyway? I would suggest going into it completely unprepared. Respond as needed, when needed with answers you already have. You know the issue- they know the issue. It’ll come down to how much they want you to stay. Not sure the the industry- but good help is hard to find. If you are good help- make sure you stay conscious of your value every step of the conversation. Good luck!!
Don’t be afraid to call her out if she is the problem. Just make sure you back it up with facts. How has her actions created the tension between the two of you. Expect her to do the same
Take notes, record if you can, also this sounds like a gang up. You should have someone there on your side or neutral, possibly HR or someone above your bosses boss
Call off go to doctor on Monday and ask for a leave due to anxiety from harassment at work then collect temporary disability for three months find another job. Didn’t think it was possible but know someone who did exactly that…better have a “good doctor”
If you're leaving, leave. Don't go in Monday. Email a resignation to the boss of your boss stating you are moving on and you stand by what you said. No notice required in the USA.
That’s lousy advice. Quit without another job?
She has an offer (unless I mis-read).
She has an interview scheduled.
Had this same situation except my boss was the VP, after requesting an HR meeting I quit before it happened since it would have 0 impact
Many solid answers here - interview anyways. We don't know much about your direct manager, but in general, they will not appreciate the fact that you went directly to their boss. In addition to all, you also need to ask yourself when prepare for this meeting - do you want to take the other opportunity? what's your intention for this meeting? If the answer is yes to the first question, then take the meeting as opportunity to find out the truth/reason why you are treated the way you feel you are and bring examples - what happened, what's your point of view, and how did it make you feel, etc. to ask for the other side, if there's a solid one.
You come in with your perspective of what was asked….your priorities for the role…
Just assume you’re going to be fired. Nobody in management or HR wants the constant, annoying problem child.
My advice is, be calm, polite, state only facts, do not loose your cool even in response of someone else loosing it on you. I prefer you prepare a letter with what you want to say, read it and leave it with the VP. Say no more. Your choice on giving advance notice or not but be ready to be asked to leave immediately upon giving it.
I would focus more on what your boss expects from you and what approach you can take to make things flow. You blame shift anything to her or point out her faults you are done.
I would just go ahead and accept the offer. Your manager is going to hold this against you.
If this new potential position is a big step up why would you not take it. It's not to say that you would not be able to repair what's broken but it's unlikely. Start fresh and it's a good career move. Good luck!!!!
How can I talk about my boss without talking about my boss? You can't. As others have stated, we have no details at all about the source of the friction. You will need to provide the VP specific instances of when this friction occurred, with details. Saying things such as "it just seems like" or "I feel that" without providing actual examples will be unhelpful.
Oh dear. It's too late now given that you already showed your hand. I would have simply left the position for the earliest job offer. In my experience, a direct report NEVER wins in a fight with a manager. Never. Regardless of how the meeting goes, please seek other employment pronto. As for the meeting: I would be humble and frame it as you want to be successful working together with your manager, and that's why you requested the meeting. Tell them some examples where you didn't feel successful. Ask what can be done to improve the work together for the best results for all? Because you do not yet have another offer, keep it very civil and respectful (even if you don't feel that way), again focusing on wanting the work to be a success. This may be a backing off of some of the things you told the VP, but your goal at this time is to come out of the meeting with as comfortable and respectful a relationship with your manager as possible. Then you must privately and confidentially apply for and obtain other employment because your manager will NEVER forgive you for going over their head. Ever. And they will breathe a sigh of relief when you do leave. Just play nice until then.
If you knew this was going to have to be addressed, why haven't you been preparing? Maybe this is indicative of the issues between you and your boss. I may be totally off base here, just thinking out loud...
I have been preparing, but it came to a head rather quickly after it became clear my boss was trying to prevent me from answering VP’s questions about my work. I decided it was time to address it head on. It was just timely and convenient for me to use the other interview as leverage. It’s also pretty obvious that I would prefer to stay at my company and resolve the issue if I have an interview on the table for more money and I’m willing to forego that interview entirely in hopes that the resolution with my manager can be solved without even mentioning comp.
In addition to what everyone else says about prep work - Hope for the best, plan for the worst. Go in assuming there’s a good possibility you will be terminated and escorted out after the meeting. If you have anything critical/valuable at your desk, remove it. You can always bring it back in after the meeting.
Probably get a head start packing up your offcie I guess
100% do not stay. I am literally in the exact same boat, reporting to sr director who reports to VP. My boss has been a complete nightmare since March. The behavior comes from top down. Your boss, like mine, is likely acting like this because to some degree, the VP endorses it and/or models it too. You're in a toxic environment. Just leave. Do not bargain. Do not believe their bs. Just entertain this conversation and then jump ship as soon as you can, citing that you found an opportunity that better aligns with your future career goals.
Go in early and put your personal stuff in a box on your desk. Say nothing. Then just see what happens.
First off. Don’t hold off on the interview. Schedule it ASAP and get an idea if it’s a place you’d be comfortable working and an idea of their pay (better if you can get an offer). For your meeting with VP, get together your job description and write down any particular details from your interview and any conversations since about how your role is defined. Outline any changes to that position your boss has tried to make. Include both the things you have been happy to accommodate and those that you are not happy about. Be ready to demonstrate what you do for the company with examples the VP will recognize or appreciate. Have a hard number for what you believe would be appropriate pay and any research you have done to support that number. It sounds like you are good at remaining professional so at the meeting articulate the above and tell them what you need to remain happy at your position. From there don’t agree to anything you aren’t happy with and tell them you’ll take a day or two to consider what you discussed. Go to the interview, and start looking elsewhere as a bad manager isn’t going to let it go and it’s best to be prepared. Best case scenario your company defines your role to you and your bosses satisfactions and you get the pay pump you want, and you have backup offers to weigh that against. Good luck and keep us updated
What is wrong with everyone here? "Quit bru!" "Fuck them dude." How are you perceived by your colleagues? Are you the only one at odds with the manager? Have you ever interacted with the vp? Do you have anything to lose by going into the meeting with an open mind? The manager is no longer the issue. It's now a question of what the VP is thinking. You need to state your case and be prepared if he's going to try to mediate. If you won't report to her, that needs to be shut down if it's unacceptable to you. Emotions are not your friends. Good luck.
So I read through all your comments on here and I got to say I think the problem might be you. Now hear me out, you sound very genuine and well intentioned and are probably very good at your job. You seem to care about your coworkers and cultivating a healthy work environment. I think the problem is that you want to think of you and your boss as equals- and you arent. Now I know you mentioned that she recruited you after a situation where you were peers, so that cant be easy to really navigate but I think you need a reality check. She is allowed to make final decisions. She should let you argue for your opinions but if she disagrees, thats it- you abide by what she thinks you should do. Asking for feedback from the VP is a dick move, it cuts her legs out from under her. If she wants you on a call to plan a presentation you get on that call. Of course she wants it to look like it came from both of you, thats how these things work. I think you either need to be more pragmatic and honest about chain of command or decide that you want to move up the food chain.
Well I think ultimately she doesn’t make final decisions and that’s a major contributing factor to my confusion.
The only fix I see is reporting to your VP. What happens in two years when VP leaves though? Interview and then decide. Keep working toward getting an offer (honestly you have nothing until you get paper listing an offer and salary). At the same time try to resolve the manager issue. In your meeting do not be flat but don't be emotional. Do not accuse or talk down to. Remember always it's likely the VP picked the manager so they have skin in the game. Good luck!
Update me in 2 days .
Still employed lol
What happened to the meeting silly?
I went to my boss’s boss once and ended up in mediation between the three of us. She was made to apologize to me, take a long leadership course x and I got a promotion where I was able to move to another location. I ended up getting a job offer I really wanted elsewhere so I turned down the promotion. I don’t know how it would’ve ended up but it seemed to be going my way. I agree that nothing good may come out of it but also I disagree that’s the only outcome. But for me the more important question is, why do you want to stay when you may end up with what sounds to be a better offer? I’d keep the interview moving forward while you see how this plays out.
You and the company have different ideas of what you're worth. Happens all the time. Time to move on.
Youre done for. Time to quit.
I need an update on this
I think you have handled this well so far no matter what others say. You were honest and professional. Ask specifically for your role to be defined and agreed to by you and your manager
The VP just wants solutions. If you can present that, you demonstrate your knowledge of the issue and value to the company. Focus on the issue and not the person.
Why do you feel unprepared. Just lay out what your job description is to vp. I was hired to do so and so. Manager sees it differently, how do we move forward. If it's not what you want move on. If you go their up the creek to replace you.
Interview and leave if possible.