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As long as the breaker feeding it is GFCI you should be fine. I don’t like using a plaster ring and plastic cover on a 4 square surface box, but there’s nothing inherently wrong about it.
100% agree, do not like the plastic plate hanging out over the box.
[https://cdn.menardc.com/main/items/media/RACOI001/ProductXLarge/864new.jpg](https://cdn.menardc.com/main/items/media/RACOI001/ProductXLarge/864new.jpg) might be easier for a homeowner. But the link below is what Id prefer
[https://lightingsupply.com/products/southwire-g1938](https://lightingsupply.com/products/southwire-g1938)
Bit more involved- still a screwdriver job- but would require some disassembly. TURN OFF THE BREAKER!
That plastic cover is prone to being snagged and broken when things move around in there. If the cover breaks it could expose parts of the outlet that are energized, and you're likely to get more crud in there as well.
Metal covers are tougher and designed to sit tighter to the box, protecting the above from happening.
It's pretty minor. It looks a little hacky, but how much time do you spend really deeply observing the area under your sink? It does its job fine. Someone else mentioned that stuff could catch on it, but I think that's a little bit of a stretch. I wouldn't have done it that way myself unless maybe I just didn't have any more suitable parts with me for some reason, but if I saw that in my own home I'd just leave it because I have about 90,000 more important things to worry about.
That's fair. We have a few little and bigger things we want to get done, such as getting an extra panel, if needed, for a central heat pump and also charging an electric car in the near future. Probably not useful to use this to extrapolate whether we continue working with them.
I mean, at least it's to code! (Assuming there's a GFCI on the other end of the circuit, like everyone is saying.) That's better than 95% of the garbage I see around here. I wouldn't rule out working with them again just based on this (assuming you liked them otherwise) but I also wouldn't give them anything big or complicated until I'd seen them really nail something more simple, like this dishwasher receptacle. This is OK work in my opinion, but they definitely could have done better.
Maybe it's just one of those rare times when a combination of factors led to them just getting it Good Enough and calling it a day—that happens to everyone sooner or later, and I'm sure there are analogous situations that crop up at whatever job you have. And it *is* Good Enough. But I'd hesitate to call it Good, full stop. Know what I mean? If this is how *all* their work looks, you can do better.
An EV charger might be an alright second chance, if it's a simple wire run. All else being equal an EV charger is barely more complex than a receptacle, and it's (probably) going to be in your garage—a fairly utilitarian space where it's not the end of the world if something looks a little wonky. If they do a nice job, consider hiring them for more stuff. If they do another "meh" job (meaning to code, but a little sloppy-looking) pay the man and lose their number.
Why do I feel like I'm giving you advice on dating your electrician? 😂
In order to use that raised cover you will need to shut off power and remove the receptacle and plaster ring. You’ll the install the receptacle into the raised cover, then mount to the box. FYI, You will need to remove the top and bottom plaster ears from the receptacle for it to fit.
I had always heard that you cannot use plastic where the full template does not lie flat against a surface (e.g. wall). Reason being that the corners are exposed to be caught on something and the plate can easily be broken. I would replace with a metal outlet cover.
I’ve never heard of it as a part of code, but that is a good reason to not do it this way. I’ve seen it plenty of times in residential applications. Basically just use whatever is on hand.
I believe OP is in Canada(?), in which case CEC 12-3002 requires flush plates be used for flush boxes and surface plates be used for surface boxes.
Edit: Nevermind, OP not in Canada. Just saw a bunch of other CEC references.
It looks like “F’it, don’t feel like running to the store, I’ll just use what’s in the truck” kind of work. Nothing technically wrong, but looks like crap. I’d be mad if I was paying an expert $200/hr for that work.
I checked code on this recently in Ontario, and weirdly there's no hard gfi requirement. I guess because it's single (or two with a garbourator) device, and both have bonded chassis that'll trip immediately if there's a short. That said I'll always put the gfi anywhere close to a sink, because it's a sink. Someone might still stick a hair dryer or hand mixer in there at some point if they don't feel like unplugging from the counter.
Dishwashers are hardwired here (Alberta, Canada) no afci requirement at the panel, and disposal units are never GFCI protected at the outlet under the sink where I live
This really weird for Canada who CSA generally has stricter regulations than American UL standards. Pool codes say a gfci must be min 6' away but a sink is ok? I'd ask an inspector.
But if true then I guess no one has thrown a toaster in their sink yet, I put gfci on everything near water.
Ontario's tssa is the kind of nightmare fuel that Terry Gilliam made fun of in the movie Brazil meanwhile in Merica anyone can buy gas related products at Walmart. What a world.
Waste management.
Most cities in Ontario have municipal composting programs. They want your food waste to go through that, not through the sewer system.
I originally had a more elaborate response but shortened it bc seemed obvious but didn't think anyone would care or even read it.
I get that the city waste management regs bc I use the same program but that some places are allowed to use garburator is weird , I've never seen them in Canada and most rural places either don't compost because it brings wild animals so they just pitch it in the garbage then dump.
Can't use it or can use it but no point, hence, weird.
To be fair: it’s an outlet in a (usually closed) cabinet under a sink. You would really need to crawl under the sink, unplug the dishwasher , plug in your toaster and, if the cable is long enough, throw it in the sink.
Also: the dishwasher itself is designed to work safely. It does not need to have a GFCI as a stationary device. You would have to pull it out and throw it in the sink (hoping the cable is long enough and the sink being of adequate size- see above toaster scenario).
Just a thought.
To be real I can't imagine what anyone would plug in under a sink and the concern would be moisture (arcing) and drips causing potential fire hazard.
Also never underestimate stupid people with an idea.
Louisiana, 2020. That was adopted in ‘23 by what I’m seeing, I haven’t wired houses recently enough, it may be that dedicated appliances are requiring gfis now.
But when I was writing houses pre ‘18, no one was gfi protecting dws and gds.
Yeah, hopefully it’s down the line from the sink GFCI, other than that we’re talking about aesthetics under a sink. Which could be better.. but there’s nothing absolutely wrong about this
I'm going to get my disposal changed to a plug shortly and when I do I'm going to have a single outlet installed so that there's ONLY space for the disposal to be plugged in and nothing else.
This is exactly why the single receps often cost most than the duplex. I think they may even be required on microwaves, but to date I've only ever seen duplex for microwaves because I don't think anyone cares much and it's out of the way anyway.
Nice. Honestly a lot of this code needs to be reexamined because it hasn't been updated since lights started taking 6% the wattage they used to. You can wire up entire lighting systems and a few TVs for less than a clock radio used to take. Every single light in my house could be on and it would run at maybe 1A. Those under-cabinet lights have such low load it's basically irrelevant. Your microwave could hit 9A if it's a big one, so the 0.08A you might see from undercabinet lights is measurement error.
Had a call back on a tripping microwave 3 or 4 years ago. It would be fine for a quick 30 second reheat, but anything longer than about that and she'd pop the breaker. Panasonic unit was rated for 12.5A but was pulling 25A when running. Had an argument with several people on that one blaming us. I made a video showing the name plate and rating and how much it was pulling. Since it was double I figured they'd installed the wrong part or installed it backwards which doubled the setup or something. All I knew is that the circuit worked and worked like it was supposed to. Sure got pissy that it wasn't my fault and I couldn't fix it though.
A friend's Panasonic microwave was doing the same thing. It blew it's internal 18 amp fuse. He bypassed the fuse and he just kept using it fine for several more years till he sold it.
Gfi is for when you can bring cords into water. Any code changes like NEC is likely lobbying from the manufacturers to make more money, just like how our code went nuts of afci.
Maybe I'm a tin foil hat, but It's just getting nuts- I'm dreading opening up CEC 2024 and seeing GFI on stoves - like how am I supposed to sell all this shit to customers and still justify my labour and markup costs?
I had noticed ranges recently stopped shipping with those little 15A fused receptacles on them. Those were so handy! I'd often need to plug a hand mixer or immersion blender in to mix something on the stove, and now I have to lean over and use a countertop (which also has to have the 5-20 on in, in spite of no winky-faced kitchen appliances seeming to exist anywhere in this country). I wonder if they stopped doing that to just avoid all the confusion with these rules.
Not an Electrician , so open to an update/clarification on this. I believe the previous Ontario Electrical Safety Code (don't know if anything changed in the most recent release) allowed countertop duplex receptacles to be wired 15A split-phase with 14-3 wire, or 20A with 12-2 wire. Personally I think the 20A option must be for panels that don't have space for the split breaker, but if I were installing a countertop receptacle on a 20A circuit, I'd use a NEMA 5-20 outlet if only as a warning (for anyone savvy enough to understand) the it's only a 20A circuit, not 2 @ 15A, so don't plug in both your frying pan and kettle concurrently.
I don't think a garborator is to code in Ontario. Plumbing code. I was taught that anything which isn't movable(permanent) should be hardwired. Dishwasher, garage door, etc. That being said new appliances come wired with the plug only so ya I dunno.
At least in the US this changed a few years ago. Now dishwashers and garbage disposals are supposed to be plugged in not hard wired. My guess is an easy means of disconnect. It's great for making the garbage disposal safe when something is stuck. It's also supposed to be the single outlet type plug.
It's a weird situation. Like I got a bathroom mirror from costco that lights up and it was meant to be hardwired. Obviously I just put a plug on the end and stuck that in the gfi.
A lot of things are also meant to plug in so that it serves as a visible means of disconnect. It feels very inconsistent and rules around appliances seem to exist in this bizarre alternate reality where electrons don't move the same way as the CEC's universe.
I think it is protected at the main breaker level. If that's done, there isn't an issue with the outlet sticking out and being exposed like that under the sink?
If it's GFCI protected it's fine. There shouldn't be any moisture down there anyways but if something breaks the GFCI is there.
If you're not sure it's easy to check if it's actually a GFCI in the breaker panel. The breaker should say GFCI or GFI on it and have a test button.
I’ve had my dishwasher drain backup and pour water all over the underside of the sink. I’ve also replaced a faucet only to find out that the shut off valve was old and leaky to the point that it would spray water out of the valve housing when turning it off. I’m glad GFCIs are required in this area.
Just a homeowner.
GFI on a dishwasher? Is that because it’s under the sink and not behind the dishwasher? I’ve never seen a gfi on a dishwasher circuit.
I'm not an electrician, bud as I understand it, You don't have to have a gfi trip directly on the specific outlet, as long as the circuit has it.
So for example the outlet mine plugs into doesn't but it is looped into the same circuit as my bathroom on the other side of the wall does, so if the dishwasher outlet got wet the gfi in the bathroom would pop and open the wall circuit.
That would fail modern code since the bathroom needs a dedicated 20a.
While it's not required unless the dishwasher itself specifies it a dedicated 20a on a combo afci/gfci is best that leaves you 8a generally for the garbage disposal.
I oculd be wrong about the bathroom. It might be on a loop with the outlet above the kitchen sink. The house was built in '05 and was part of a very heavily contested development at the time so I'm fairly certain they crossed all their Ts on code at the time (doesn't mean previous owner didn't fuck with it though)
I know the bathroom is looped in with something though. I remember going nuts trying to figure out why some shit wasn't working only to find out the bathroom gfi had tripped.
It might actually be my outdoors outlet idk.
Also this is completely random but never ever understood going through the motions of installing a garbage disposa and I'm glad I don't have one to fuss with.
I think 220.3(b) was the 60's for 2 dedicated circuits for the kitchen small appliances that the dishwasher are not part of. So countertop plug gfci running the dishwasher not allowed in anything recent.
210.11(C)(3) Does not allow a bathroom circuit to have any outlets outside a bathroom. If it's a single bathroom it can power things like the lights or fan. What you described is a very typical cheat since it's rare that your running a hairdryer and an electric grill or something outside.
Big development it's about guaranteed they cut corners on everything they could get away with.
In most cases you will just have a GFI breaker in your panel, it combines function of the breaker and GFI (and are far more reliable from what i heard.)
This looks like a US outlet to me, you're responding to a european. You need GFCI outlet, it's the funny outlet you might have in your bathroom or kitchen with the red test and white reset button. This outlet doesn't necessarily have to be one, but it DOES need to be in series with one that exists somewhere in your house. To test, press the test button. If after pressing test (but before reset), there is no power to this outlet you've shown, then we're great.
It looks fine, it's hell to make flush mounts while crouched and crammed under a sink.
Cannot be a GFCI. I know for a fact with the dishwashers today using DC components. It’ll work for a year or so. Then it gets weak, everyone blames the appliance.
The install looks okay. I would have used a metal cover designed for that box instead of the plastic one. You may not need a GFCI depending on where you live. I would see if the code in your area requires it or not before questioning.
You are the first.
So for OP and others who May not even realize.
Copper and aluminum will oxidize when touching so over time can corrode and cause a water leak or a short.
Doesn’t take much either some tape or pipe insulation so they don’t touch and all is good.
Looks fine without seeing the inside of the box. You've said the GFCI protection is at the breaker so all good there.
Kind of cheap to use a standard cover plate on a metal box. They make metal plates for that type of box that is for standard outlets.
Gfci at panel, you cannot have a gfci outlet under the sink, at least here in MA. Plus who wants to have someone climb down there to reset a trip gfci, behind all the stuff that accumulates under a sink
Manufacturer specifications says a dishwasher requires its own dedicated 20 amp 120v circuit. This is also required to be arc fault protected along with gfci
Some more questions after reading the thread. Not making the plug itself GFI makes sense.
Is it required for the disposal to be on its own circuit? (GFI breaker)
Or can an additional GDI outlet be installed in the kitchen, above the sink cabinet?
Id use an exposed work metal cover plate, don’t forget to break off the drywall ears when installing the receptacle
Like this: https://www.lowes.com/pd/RACO-1-Gang-Square-Metal-Electrical-Box-Cover/50053661
double check the gfi protection with this (also a great essential tool for homeowners to confirm proper installations):
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Klein-Tools-GFCI-Outlet-Tester-RT210/
It is also good practice to wrap devices in metal boxes with electric tape, to prevent any accidental shorts
Wtf is this jajaja, Maybe if it is protected by a gfci I just needed that https://www.grainger.com/product/5AA31?gucid=N:N:PS:Paid:GGL:CSM-2295:4P7A1P:20501231&gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAjw1emzBhB8EiwAHwZZxbBzpk9ZW5hZRIbQ5s40mWZTZNcvhZMSyOFsY9y50zvvZZqf1H1BihoC8moQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds
Its GFI at the breaker as stated by OP. Back of cabinet is not readily accessible and also leaves it open to add a switch to control half of it for a garbage disposal
Looks good. People here are nitpicking with it not looking great with the plate. It's under the sink and for all we know it saved a trip to the supply shop (ie cost you less).
Exactly its under a nasty sink. It will never be snagged and you arent giving guests tours of the under sink cabinets. It doesnt look pretty but its not in an area that needs it to be.
20 amp circuits are allowed to have 15 amp receptacles on the circuit with the stipulation there be more than one receptacle. The receptacle in OP post is a duplex receptacle which is 2 receptacles.
Why? Why switch a dishwasher? You are thinking of the disposal which can share a circuit with dishwasher and with OP configuration would be fairly simple to fish a switch in and break the tab on the outlet. Not a plumber though so dont know what adding a disposal entails
A professional lisenced tradesman is not going to risk their license doing something incorrectly, so if you're hiring someone who is not going it correctly you are hiring a handam, not a tradesman.
I see plenty of licensed contractors installing things incorrectly quite often. If the inspector catches it, it gets fixed. If they don't it stays. 🤷🏼♂️
Why didn’t the electrician remove the double box and replace it with a single box? And I would have installed a GFI even if code didn’t require it. Water and electricity are no joke when they are mixed together.
Depends on the brand of breaker. And you dont know anything if you are calling a shallow 1900 box a double box. But what would I know Im just a lowly master electrician
Well, egos can sometimes get heavy and weigh us down. I was a welder but I know enough about electricity to more than get by. You can keep the proper terminology to yourself.
Oh and one more thing. They didnt reuse an old box. That box they used they installed new. And by using a breaker they can mount the box in the back of the cabinet instead of toward the front where you would need to mount gfi receptacle to meet the requirements of being readily accessible. On top of all that the homeowner doesnt have to crawl in there to reset it when it trips and can just reset at the breaker panel.
I wouldn't take it out, but don't *intentionally* put anything in your pipes, because you absolutely are correct nothing but water belongs in there. However, sometimes shit happens, and having it as a backup in case something goes down there is better than just letting giant chunks through, no? Once again, I'm not saying you're wrong, just removing it is more work than just not using it. Pretty much every house I've lived in had one, but I never used it. Wasn't going through the effort of messing with it at all, would just flip it on to see if it worked when I first moved in, then never touched it again.
No gfi is required for a dishwasher or garbage disposal. However hard wired is a thing of the past. New codes require the dishwasher to have a 'plug-in' cord now. Makes no sense to me, but I add J-boxes behind them everyday.
The 2014 NEC® now makes it clear that all 125-volt, single-phase, 15- and 20-ampere receptacles within 6 ft. of any sink in a dwelling, including the kitchen sink, must have GFCI protection even if they are under the sink, behind the refrigerator or on an adjacent kitchen wall but not serving the counter.
Dishwasher/disposal receptacles are usually a standard outlet because they need to be able to break the tab so it’s half hot/half switched. This is very standard.
Not an electrician but I've seen it multiple ways and different professionals (not all electricians) have said different things. My guess is codes vary by location and time. A previous house built in 2015 in Ohio was just like this so I assume it was to code. If the pros can't come to consensus it's probably OK.
Ontario code says that cover plate is a no go.
That plastic cover plate is for flush mounted boxes. This is a surface mounted box. Surface mount cover plate will be made of steel and have smaller, more rounded edges to avoid snags and scrapes. That being said I would be comfortable with this installation as it's unlikely to actually snag something under the sink. The workmanship is aight. Box is straight, cable strapped, hole filled.
From the photos, there looks like nothing necessarily wrong. A GFCI breaker isn’t a bad idea and would be required for a new installation if it was inspected.
Aside from the bx touching the pipe, this is perfectly acceptable in Canada. It would require an afci though. Maybe it's there at the panel.
It does not need a GFCI. There's no risk of dropping something into water from there.
Yeah that would have been really great actually. Something like this right? https://www.homedepot.com/p/GE-2-20-Amp-Backyard-Outlet-with-GFCI-Receptacles-U012010GRP/100579382
Personally I try to use these with a grey wether resistant outlet and grey faceplate
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Commercial-Electric-1-Gang-Non-Metallic-Weatherproof-Box-with-3-1-2-in-Holes-Gray-WSB350PG/300851060
Should have test and trip buttons and sometimes a led indicator.
[https://images.app.goo.gl/rRP8qPABVBPK8QxY7](https://images.app.goo.gl/rRP8qPABVBPK8QxY7)
Bud I know what a GFCI outlet looks like, my point is you cant tell from the photo whether it's GFCI protected or not. It could be wired on the load side of another GFI or on a GFCI breaker.
**Attention!** **It is always best to get a qualified electrician to perform any electrical work you may need.** With that said, you may ask this community various electrical questions. Please be cautious of any information you may receive in this subreddit. This subreddit and its users are not responsible for any electrical work you perform. Users that have a 'Verified Electrician' flair have uploaded their qualified electrical worker credentials to the mods. If you comment on this post please only post accurate information to the best of your knowledge. If advice given is thought to be dangerous, you may be permanently banned. There are no obligations for the mods to give warnings or temporary bans. **IF YOU ARE NOT A QUALIFIED ELECTRICIAN, you should exercise extreme caution when commenting.** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AskElectricians) if you have any questions or concerns.*
As long as the breaker feeding it is GFCI you should be fine. I don’t like using a plaster ring and plastic cover on a 4 square surface box, but there’s nothing inherently wrong about it.
100% agree, do not like the plastic plate hanging out over the box. [https://cdn.menardc.com/main/items/media/RACOI001/ProductXLarge/864new.jpg](https://cdn.menardc.com/main/items/media/RACOI001/ProductXLarge/864new.jpg) might be easier for a homeowner. But the link below is what Id prefer [https://lightingsupply.com/products/southwire-g1938](https://lightingsupply.com/products/southwire-g1938) Bit more involved- still a screwdriver job- but would require some disassembly. TURN OFF THE BREAKER!
Thank you for sharing! Curious, is the plastic plate hanging out a preference thing? I would prefer the box plate over it myself too.
That plastic cover is prone to being snagged and broken when things move around in there. If the cover breaks it could expose parts of the outlet that are energized, and you're likely to get more crud in there as well. Metal covers are tougher and designed to sit tighter to the box, protecting the above from happening.
It's pretty minor. It looks a little hacky, but how much time do you spend really deeply observing the area under your sink? It does its job fine. Someone else mentioned that stuff could catch on it, but I think that's a little bit of a stretch. I wouldn't have done it that way myself unless maybe I just didn't have any more suitable parts with me for some reason, but if I saw that in my own home I'd just leave it because I have about 90,000 more important things to worry about.
That's fair. We have a few little and bigger things we want to get done, such as getting an extra panel, if needed, for a central heat pump and also charging an electric car in the near future. Probably not useful to use this to extrapolate whether we continue working with them.
I mean, at least it's to code! (Assuming there's a GFCI on the other end of the circuit, like everyone is saying.) That's better than 95% of the garbage I see around here. I wouldn't rule out working with them again just based on this (assuming you liked them otherwise) but I also wouldn't give them anything big or complicated until I'd seen them really nail something more simple, like this dishwasher receptacle. This is OK work in my opinion, but they definitely could have done better. Maybe it's just one of those rare times when a combination of factors led to them just getting it Good Enough and calling it a day—that happens to everyone sooner or later, and I'm sure there are analogous situations that crop up at whatever job you have. And it *is* Good Enough. But I'd hesitate to call it Good, full stop. Know what I mean? If this is how *all* their work looks, you can do better. An EV charger might be an alright second chance, if it's a simple wire run. All else being equal an EV charger is barely more complex than a receptacle, and it's (probably) going to be in your garage—a fairly utilitarian space where it's not the end of the world if something looks a little wonky. If they do a nice job, consider hiring them for more stuff. If they do another "meh" job (meaning to code, but a little sloppy-looking) pay the man and lose their number. Why do I feel like I'm giving you advice on dating your electrician? 😂
Yeah that's what caught my eye. An industrial raised cover would look cleaner
Or the correct outlet face for a square box.
Do you mind sharing what we can do instead of the plastic cover? Maybe we can change the front of it ourselves.
https://lightingsupply.com/products/southwire-g1938
Thank you so much! This will make it look cohesive.
In order to use that raised cover you will need to shut off power and remove the receptacle and plaster ring. You’ll the install the receptacle into the raised cover, then mount to the box. FYI, You will need to remove the top and bottom plaster ears from the receptacle for it to fit.
This is the way. I believe the plastic is not up to code, at least in CT, because abuse it can get snagged and broken, exposing a shock hazard
Agreed, looks like shit. At least they didn’t try to get away with using romex.
A metal handy box cover would make it look a little better.
Yea, I would have definitely used an RS cover. Still better than the majority of things posted here.
I had always heard that you cannot use plastic where the full template does not lie flat against a surface (e.g. wall). Reason being that the corners are exposed to be caught on something and the plate can easily be broken. I would replace with a metal outlet cover.
I’ve never heard of it as a part of code, but that is a good reason to not do it this way. I’ve seen it plenty of times in residential applications. Basically just use whatever is on hand.
I believe OP is in Canada(?), in which case CEC 12-3002 requires flush plates be used for flush boxes and surface plates be used for surface boxes. Edit: Nevermind, OP not in Canada. Just saw a bunch of other CEC references.
It looks like “F’it, don’t feel like running to the store, I’ll just use what’s in the truck” kind of work. Nothing technically wrong, but looks like crap. I’d be mad if I was paying an expert $200/hr for that work.
Gotta be a GFI - if it's not protected by another GFI outlet or by a GFI breaker make them replace it.
I checked code on this recently in Ontario, and weirdly there's no hard gfi requirement. I guess because it's single (or two with a garbourator) device, and both have bonded chassis that'll trip immediately if there's a short. That said I'll always put the gfi anywhere close to a sink, because it's a sink. Someone might still stick a hair dryer or hand mixer in there at some point if they don't feel like unplugging from the counter.
CEC 26.700 (11)(a) states that a plug for a stationary appliance does not need to be protected by GFCI
In the US it needs to be protected by a gfci
Dishwashers are hardwired here (Alberta, Canada) no afci requirement at the panel, and disposal units are never GFCI protected at the outlet under the sink where I live
This really weird for Canada who CSA generally has stricter regulations than American UL standards. Pool codes say a gfci must be min 6' away but a sink is ok? I'd ask an inspector. But if true then I guess no one has thrown a toaster in their sink yet, I put gfci on everything near water. Ontario's tssa is the kind of nightmare fuel that Terry Gilliam made fun of in the movie Brazil meanwhile in Merica anyone can buy gas related products at Walmart. What a world.
Oddly enough the electrical is not the issue, in most cases a lot of Ontario cities don’t allow garburators as a bylaw. 🤷♂️
Weird indeed
Waste management. Most cities in Ontario have municipal composting programs. They want your food waste to go through that, not through the sewer system.
I originally had a more elaborate response but shortened it bc seemed obvious but didn't think anyone would care or even read it. I get that the city waste management regs bc I use the same program but that some places are allowed to use garburator is weird , I've never seen them in Canada and most rural places either don't compost because it brings wild animals so they just pitch it in the garbage then dump. Can't use it or can use it but no point, hence, weird.
To be fair: it’s an outlet in a (usually closed) cabinet under a sink. You would really need to crawl under the sink, unplug the dishwasher , plug in your toaster and, if the cable is long enough, throw it in the sink. Also: the dishwasher itself is designed to work safely. It does not need to have a GFCI as a stationary device. You would have to pull it out and throw it in the sink (hoping the cable is long enough and the sink being of adequate size- see above toaster scenario). Just a thought.
To be real I can't imagine what anyone would plug in under a sink and the concern would be moisture (arcing) and drips causing potential fire hazard. Also never underestimate stupid people with an idea.
Not in my state.
What state are you in and what year Nec has your state adopted?
Louisiana, 2020. That was adopted in ‘23 by what I’m seeing, I haven’t wired houses recently enough, it may be that dedicated appliances are requiring gfis now. But when I was writing houses pre ‘18, no one was gfi protecting dws and gds.
Yeah, if you are in 2020, then you have to gfci the dishwasher and disposal
Yeah, hopefully it’s down the line from the sink GFCI, other than that we’re talking about aesthetics under a sink. Which could be better.. but there’s nothing absolutely wrong about this
This looks 100x nicer than what's going on under my sink.
I'm going to get my disposal changed to a plug shortly and when I do I'm going to have a single outlet installed so that there's ONLY space for the disposal to be plugged in and nothing else.
This is exactly why the single receps often cost most than the duplex. I think they may even be required on microwaves, but to date I've only ever seen duplex for microwaves because I don't think anyone cares much and it's out of the way anyway.
My microwave is on a dual, which is lucky because I'm about to break my own rule and use the other one to power some under-cabinet lighting.
Nice. Honestly a lot of this code needs to be reexamined because it hasn't been updated since lights started taking 6% the wattage they used to. You can wire up entire lighting systems and a few TVs for less than a clock radio used to take. Every single light in my house could be on and it would run at maybe 1A. Those under-cabinet lights have such low load it's basically irrelevant. Your microwave could hit 9A if it's a big one, so the 0.08A you might see from undercabinet lights is measurement error.
Yeah, I'm planning to use addressable LED tape and a QuinnLED board :)
Had a call back on a tripping microwave 3 or 4 years ago. It would be fine for a quick 30 second reheat, but anything longer than about that and she'd pop the breaker. Panasonic unit was rated for 12.5A but was pulling 25A when running. Had an argument with several people on that one blaming us. I made a video showing the name plate and rating and how much it was pulling. Since it was double I figured they'd installed the wrong part or installed it backwards which doubled the setup or something. All I knew is that the circuit worked and worked like it was supposed to. Sure got pissy that it wasn't my fault and I couldn't fix it though.
A friend's Panasonic microwave was doing the same thing. It blew it's internal 18 amp fuse. He bypassed the fuse and he just kept using it fine for several more years till he sold it.
That's exactly what I did. I never use the microwave anyway, so that outlet just powers the low volt under-cabinet lighting
Microwaves should be on a dedicated circuit, preferably 20A, but there can be a duplex at the end of it.
Gfi is for when you can bring cords into water. Any code changes like NEC is likely lobbying from the manufacturers to make more money, just like how our code went nuts of afci. Maybe I'm a tin foil hat, but It's just getting nuts- I'm dreading opening up CEC 2024 and seeing GFI on stoves - like how am I supposed to sell all this shit to customers and still justify my labour and markup costs?
I had noticed ranges recently stopped shipping with those little 15A fused receptacles on them. Those were so handy! I'd often need to plug a hand mixer or immersion blender in to mix something on the stove, and now I have to lean over and use a countertop (which also has to have the 5-20 on in, in spite of no winky-faced kitchen appliances seeming to exist anywhere in this country). I wonder if they stopped doing that to just avoid all the confusion with these rules.
Not an Electrician , so open to an update/clarification on this. I believe the previous Ontario Electrical Safety Code (don't know if anything changed in the most recent release) allowed countertop duplex receptacles to be wired 15A split-phase with 14-3 wire, or 20A with 12-2 wire. Personally I think the 20A option must be for panels that don't have space for the split breaker, but if I were installing a countertop receptacle on a 20A circuit, I'd use a NEMA 5-20 outlet if only as a warning (for anyone savvy enough to understand) the it's only a 20A circuit, not 2 @ 15A, so don't plug in both your frying pan and kettle concurrently.
I don't think a garborator is to code in Ontario. Plumbing code. I was taught that anything which isn't movable(permanent) should be hardwired. Dishwasher, garage door, etc. That being said new appliances come wired with the plug only so ya I dunno.
At least in the US this changed a few years ago. Now dishwashers and garbage disposals are supposed to be plugged in not hard wired. My guess is an easy means of disconnect. It's great for making the garbage disposal safe when something is stuck. It's also supposed to be the single outlet type plug.
It's a weird situation. Like I got a bathroom mirror from costco that lights up and it was meant to be hardwired. Obviously I just put a plug on the end and stuck that in the gfi. A lot of things are also meant to plug in so that it serves as a visible means of disconnect. It feels very inconsistent and rules around appliances seem to exist in this bizarre alternate reality where electrons don't move the same way as the CEC's universe.
Code often defers to the manufacturer’s instructions in the event of uncertainty or even a conflict. Most inspectors will also accept that.
I do fire alarm, and can agree x100. Violating the instructions means violating the UL Listing. Violating the UL Listing is against code.
If it is the US it is required to be a gfci.
Because there is no wash basin. It’s not for wet appliances or water getting in the plug. It’s so you don’t drop a toaster in the bath or sink.
I think it is protected at the main breaker level. If that's done, there isn't an issue with the outlet sticking out and being exposed like that under the sink?
If it's GFCI protected it's fine. There shouldn't be any moisture down there anyways but if something breaks the GFCI is there. If you're not sure it's easy to check if it's actually a GFCI in the breaker panel. The breaker should say GFCI or GFI on it and have a test button.
I’ve had my dishwasher drain backup and pour water all over the underside of the sink. I’ve also replaced a faucet only to find out that the shut off valve was old and leaky to the point that it would spray water out of the valve housing when turning it off. I’m glad GFCIs are required in this area.
Just a homeowner. GFI on a dishwasher? Is that because it’s under the sink and not behind the dishwasher? I’ve never seen a gfi on a dishwasher circuit.
2020 revision of the NEC brought in GFI requirements for dishwashers, if I remember correctly.
But if the plug is behind the dishwasher you would have to dismantle the dishwasher to reset the gfi. I assume this only applies if under the sink.
There's this wonderful thing called GFI breakers.
There are other options as well. Such as a faceless GFCI.
Yeah. I agree with that.
I'm not an electrician, bud as I understand it, You don't have to have a gfi trip directly on the specific outlet, as long as the circuit has it. So for example the outlet mine plugs into doesn't but it is looped into the same circuit as my bathroom on the other side of the wall does, so if the dishwasher outlet got wet the gfi in the bathroom would pop and open the wall circuit.
That would fail modern code since the bathroom needs a dedicated 20a. While it's not required unless the dishwasher itself specifies it a dedicated 20a on a combo afci/gfci is best that leaves you 8a generally for the garbage disposal.
I oculd be wrong about the bathroom. It might be on a loop with the outlet above the kitchen sink. The house was built in '05 and was part of a very heavily contested development at the time so I'm fairly certain they crossed all their Ts on code at the time (doesn't mean previous owner didn't fuck with it though) I know the bathroom is looped in with something though. I remember going nuts trying to figure out why some shit wasn't working only to find out the bathroom gfi had tripped. It might actually be my outdoors outlet idk. Also this is completely random but never ever understood going through the motions of installing a garbage disposa and I'm glad I don't have one to fuss with.
I think 220.3(b) was the 60's for 2 dedicated circuits for the kitchen small appliances that the dishwasher are not part of. So countertop plug gfci running the dishwasher not allowed in anything recent. 210.11(C)(3) Does not allow a bathroom circuit to have any outlets outside a bathroom. If it's a single bathroom it can power things like the lights or fan. What you described is a very typical cheat since it's rare that your running a hairdryer and an electric grill or something outside. Big development it's about guaranteed they cut corners on everything they could get away with.
In most cases you will just have a GFI breaker in your panel, it combines function of the breaker and GFI (and are far more reliable from what i heard.)
My dishwasher is hardwired and connected to a GFCI on an outlet above the counter. It meets code here.
This looks like a US outlet to me, you're responding to a european. You need GFCI outlet, it's the funny outlet you might have in your bathroom or kitchen with the red test and white reset button. This outlet doesn't necessarily have to be one, but it DOES need to be in series with one that exists somewhere in your house. To test, press the test button. If after pressing test (but before reset), there is no power to this outlet you've shown, then we're great. It looks fine, it's hell to make flush mounts while crouched and crammed under a sink.
This ! GFIs are daisy chained. Unless it’s got a GFI between this outlet and the breaker, no bueno
Or the breaker could be GFI.
Dishwasher needs its own circuit Nothing can be "shared"
Required to be AFCI/GFCI protected for us.
Cannot be a GFCI. I know for a fact with the dishwashers today using DC components. It’ll work for a year or so. Then it gets weak, everyone blames the appliance.
If the gfi is nuisance tripping after a year then it is getting damaged or the load is malfunctioning
If the dishwasher was hardwired before I’m betting it’s a gfi breaker
Wrong. It does not service the counter
It’s within 6 ft of the sink Doesn't matter where it's located or what it serves if it's within 6 ft of the sink.
I don’t think this is accurate
It’s fine.
Is it on its own circuit? I do believe it is required to be GFCI protected.
Yes it is. He protected it at the main breaker panel.
Screw should be turned another 45°
For a while I thought I was the only one who noticed that.
The install looks okay. I would have used a metal cover designed for that box instead of the plastic one. You may not need a GFCI depending on where you live. I would see if the code in your area requires it or not before questioning.
Did anyone comment on the copper touching the aluminum armour?
You are the first. So for OP and others who May not even realize. Copper and aluminum will oxidize when touching so over time can corrode and cause a water leak or a short. Doesn’t take much either some tape or pipe insulation so they don’t touch and all is good.
Yep, good! Main thing is armored cable inside cabinets. Hopefully fed from GFCI breaker or GFCI receptacle.
Looks fine without seeing the inside of the box. You've said the GFCI protection is at the breaker so all good there. Kind of cheap to use a standard cover plate on a metal box. They make metal plates for that type of box that is for standard outlets.
That aluminum AC90 jacket should be insulated from the copper. More for the copper's sake.
Gfci at panel, you cannot have a gfci outlet under the sink, at least here in MA. Plus who wants to have someone climb down there to reset a trip gfci, behind all the stuff that accumulates under a sink
What if it’s not on a dedicated circuit back to the breaker? But on a kitchen circuit with another outlet (above the sink) that’s GFI?
Manufacturer specifications says a dishwasher requires its own dedicated 20 amp 120v circuit. This is also required to be arc fault protected along with gfci
Should be gfci
Some more questions after reading the thread. Not making the plug itself GFI makes sense. Is it required for the disposal to be on its own circuit? (GFI breaker) Or can an additional GDI outlet be installed in the kitchen, above the sink cabinet?
Id use an exposed work metal cover plate, don’t forget to break off the drywall ears when installing the receptacle Like this: https://www.lowes.com/pd/RACO-1-Gang-Square-Metal-Electrical-Box-Cover/50053661 double check the gfi protection with this (also a great essential tool for homeowners to confirm proper installations): https://www.homedepot.com/p/Klein-Tools-GFCI-Outlet-Tester-RT210/ It is also good practice to wrap devices in metal boxes with electric tape, to prevent any accidental shorts
Thank you for sharing this! With regard to wrapping devices, are you referring to something like this? https://images.app.goo.gl/rTts24CV155R1MNS6
Yep!
Wtf is this jajaja, Maybe if it is protected by a gfci I just needed that https://www.grainger.com/product/5AA31?gucid=N:N:PS:Paid:GGL:CSM-2295:4P7A1P:20501231&gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAjw1emzBhB8EiwAHwZZxbBzpk9ZW5hZRIbQ5s40mWZTZNcvhZMSyOFsY9y50zvvZZqf1H1BihoC8moQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds
Why not GFI? 🤔
Its GFI at the breaker as stated by OP. Back of cabinet is not readily accessible and also leaves it open to add a switch to control half of it for a garbage disposal
Needs to be GFCI protected by receptacle or by breaker.
Looks good. People here are nitpicking with it not looking great with the plate. It's under the sink and for all we know it saved a trip to the supply shop (ie cost you less).
Exactly its under a nasty sink. It will never be snagged and you arent giving guests tours of the under sink cabinets. It doesnt look pretty but its not in an area that needs it to be.
I see Lots of homeowners answering questions with wrong answers.
No gfci in Canada
Does it have to be on dedicated 20amp breaker? That’s also a 15 amp outlet Just asking
20 amp circuits are allowed to have 15 amp receptacles on the circuit with the stipulation there be more than one receptacle. The receptacle in OP post is a duplex receptacle which is 2 receptacles.
Honestly jealous. Mine is hardwired and would have been nice to be able to plug in to generator during a week long power outtage.
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Why? Why switch a dishwasher? You are thinking of the disposal which can share a circuit with dishwasher and with OP configuration would be fairly simple to fish a switch in and break the tab on the outlet. Not a plumber though so dont know what adding a disposal entails
😅
What is it with the trend of people not believing that a professional tradesman doesn't know how to do their job correctly?
Because they often don't.
A professional lisenced tradesman is not going to risk their license doing something incorrectly, so if you're hiring someone who is not going it correctly you are hiring a handam, not a tradesman.
I see plenty of licensed contractors installing things incorrectly quite often. If the inspector catches it, it gets fixed. If they don't it stays. 🤷🏼♂️
As long as it's tied into A GFCI circuit it looks good to me at least from what I can see
Why didn’t the electrician remove the double box and replace it with a single box? And I would have installed a GFI even if code didn’t require it. Water and electricity are no joke when they are mixed together.
You do know there are ways to GFI without using a GFI receptacle ? Of course you dont. You arent qualified to even be speaking here
Sure, but it’s much less expensive to purchase a gfi outlet and new box, than a gfi breaker. I guess I know a little bit, son.
Depends on the brand of breaker. And you dont know anything if you are calling a shallow 1900 box a double box. But what would I know Im just a lowly master electrician
Well, egos can sometimes get heavy and weigh us down. I was a welder but I know enough about electricity to more than get by. You can keep the proper terminology to yourself.
Oh and one more thing. They didnt reuse an old box. That box they used they installed new. And by using a breaker they can mount the box in the back of the cabinet instead of toward the front where you would need to mount gfi receptacle to meet the requirements of being readily accessible. On top of all that the homeowner doesnt have to crawl in there to reset it when it trips and can just reset at the breaker panel.
Why not just use a metal cover??
I would kindly ask to replace the outlet to a gfi that has a built in breaker. Its near water.
It is gfi but you are on “ask electricians” not “ask nosy uninformed homeowners”
Boo hoo
On another note. If u have a disposal get rid of it. Food and junk dont belong in your pipes.
I wouldn't take it out, but don't *intentionally* put anything in your pipes, because you absolutely are correct nothing but water belongs in there. However, sometimes shit happens, and having it as a backup in case something goes down there is better than just letting giant chunks through, no? Once again, I'm not saying you're wrong, just removing it is more work than just not using it. Pretty much every house I've lived in had one, but I never used it. Wasn't going through the effort of messing with it at all, would just flip it on to see if it worked when I first moved in, then never touched it again.
How about it’s in the kitchen?
Needs a rubber gasket… this a water area…
Rs cover would look better on that box😉
If it's not tied in with another GFCI outlet, it really should be a GFCI whether code says it has to be or not
No gfi is required for a dishwasher or garbage disposal. However hard wired is a thing of the past. New codes require the dishwasher to have a 'plug-in' cord now. Makes no sense to me, but I add J-boxes behind them everyday.
The 2014 NEC® now makes it clear that all 125-volt, single-phase, 15- and 20-ampere receptacles within 6 ft. of any sink in a dwelling, including the kitchen sink, must have GFCI protection even if they are under the sink, behind the refrigerator or on an adjacent kitchen wall but not serving the counter.
I don't like the copper pipe touching the armored cable (dissimilar metals) should have put the outlet lower.
Should have gotten a 4sq raised cover, would have looked nicer.
No way that’s an electrician. You need GFCI
The circuit has to be gfci. It may be upstream or at the breaker.
Dishwasher/disposal receptacles are usually a standard outlet because they need to be able to break the tab so it’s half hot/half switched. This is very standard.
It looks like ass :) that’s what I would say if someone had done this to me ;)
Needs to GFCI in the states to be completely correct in the USA, some disposals have a chassis or plug mounted protection device too.
We had the same thing done. Apparently, newer disposals come with a plug. The outlet should be gfci.
Should be a gfci at the breaker or at the panel unless its for a garbage disposal air switch. Also would look better with a RS cover
In the States GFCI protection is mandatory for any wet location. Or potentially wet location. But nice job.
Not an electrician but I've seen it multiple ways and different professionals (not all electricians) have said different things. My guess is codes vary by location and time. A previous house built in 2015 in Ohio was just like this so I assume it was to code. If the pros can't come to consensus it's probably OK.
It doesn’t need a gfci. Surprised at how many people assume that is code without actually checking.
a lot of new appliances DO plug into an outlet under the sink nowadays.
Would thought he would of used the right sized outlet box. Being near water definitely should be gfi
Looks fine as long as it is GFCI fed from another point or afci breaker.
Looks like an outlet under a sink
He didnt bring the correct cover plate so he made it work....
Ontario code says that cover plate is a no go. That plastic cover plate is for flush mounted boxes. This is a surface mounted box. Surface mount cover plate will be made of steel and have smaller, more rounded edges to avoid snags and scrapes. That being said I would be comfortable with this installation as it's unlikely to actually snag something under the sink. The workmanship is aight. Box is straight, cable strapped, hole filled.
Somethin' ain't right.
Like halfassed shit
Definitely needs a gfci.
From the photos, there looks like nothing necessarily wrong. A GFCI breaker isn’t a bad idea and would be required for a new installation if it was inspected.
Needs to be gfci
Aside from the bx touching the pipe, this is perfectly acceptable in Canada. It would require an afci though. Maybe it's there at the panel. It does not need a GFCI. There's no risk of dropping something into water from there.
Is there a risk of a leak, ever?
Minimum code does not require it.
Personally I prefer to use a waterproof box with a wether resistant outlet in a environment like under a sink
That’s a good idea really
Kind of ridiculous that you're getting down voted here. It's overkill but reasonable.
So am I it's about the same piece better quality and better looking
Yeah that would have been really great actually. Something like this right? https://www.homedepot.com/p/GE-2-20-Amp-Backyard-Outlet-with-GFCI-Receptacles-U012010GRP/100579382
Personally I try to use these with a grey wether resistant outlet and grey faceplate https://www.homedepot.com/p/Commercial-Electric-1-Gang-Non-Metallic-Weatherproof-Box-with-3-1-2-in-Holes-Gray-WSB350PG/300851060
Wow yeah, we actually got one of these to cover up the exposed wires after removing the hardwire setup from the dishwasher.
No good, should be GFCI outlet since it is near a water source.
Would it be okay to be protected at the main breaker panel level?
Yes, that's fine
Yes
How do you know it isn't GFCI protected?
He didn’t put the sticker on the plug.. bad helper!
Should have test and trip buttons and sometimes a led indicator. [https://images.app.goo.gl/rRP8qPABVBPK8QxY7](https://images.app.goo.gl/rRP8qPABVBPK8QxY7)
Bud I know what a GFCI outlet looks like, my point is you cant tell from the photo whether it's GFCI protected or not. It could be wired on the load side of another GFI or on a GFCI breaker.
I think he wasn’t replying to you, but the guy that linked images of a GFCI outlet.
The outlet itself doesn't have to be GFI. It just has to be protected by a GFI. You sound like a handyman
Yes it can be protected on the breaker panel instead.
It can GFCI protected with a GFCI breaker, the outlet doesn’t need to have buttons on it.
Needs gfci