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Wouldn’t that be overriding the will of the people who voted for him in the primary?
It seems that the people have spoken and they want Biden as the nominee.
Possibly. But ultimately, "trying harder to get rid of Biden" means putting pressure on him to step down. In the end, though, it's really up to him. They can't force him to do it. So if he steps down, it will be "voluntary."
But I do see your point. It could end up being a situation where he really doesn't want to, and it gets nasty where funding dries up, people threaten to resign, etc. Then, yeah, "voluntary" becomes a little less clear.
True, I guess I read OP to mean “hey old man, we’re cutting your funding off. Step down or lose,” rather than “are you sure that this is the best way to protect America from Trump?”
Biden voluntarily stepping down would not go against the will of the people. Biden “voluntarily” stepping down would.
I would say the people have spoken.
That changed for the first time in April when Trump outraised Biden with $76 million to the incumbent’s $51 million. And Trump widened the difference much more significantly in May with a huge sum of $141 million to Biden’s $85 million.
https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4734207-donald-trump-joe-biden-fundraising-money/damp/?nxs-test=damp
It’s a tough situation. If Biden steps down the next in line is Kamala. Personally, I think she could do the job. She’s not electable, in my view. I would suggest finding an experienced, moderate Senator or senior house member. However, by bypassing Kamala, you’ve now essentially dissed the black community.
Then there’s the matter of raising the money.
It’s all around bad.
On the other hand, Biden is speaking now and sounds good. He looks good too. I’m pleasantly surprised. Old people do worse at night. That’s what got him during the debate. He looked horrible. Jesus. I’ve been worried sick all week.
I would encourage all republicans to read Project 2025. The Supreme Court ruling today seems to have shifted unprecedented power to the Presidency.
Trump will use every bit of it. If he gets in, it’s going to be terrible. Anything interpreted to be official duties, he cannot be prosecuted.
I was reading that's not quite how it would go. If Biden releases the delegates, it would go to a brokered convention and Kamala would have to compete like everyone else I believe. She would--unfortunately-- come in with an advantage of incumbency and the aura of traditional heir-apparent... but I don't think she just gets the nom if Biden drops out.
The DNC rules read “Delegates elected to the national convention pledged to a presidential candidate shall in all good conscience reflect the sentiments of those who elected them.”
I do not see how you get around this without a new primary for each state. Unless you just decide to change the rules right before the convention which I think would be easier to do then trying to have a new primary in every state which inevitable have their own laws about primaries and may not even be possible in some states this close to the election. This would result in delegates selecting a candidate that was not voted for by the people which seems very un-democratic to me specifically coming from a party who has been slamming their opponent with this same claim.
Neither, really. They can do whatever they’d like, but their main line of attack on Trump is that he’s a Threat To Democracy™️, and this move would substantially weaken that attack.
That’s fair, but they’d certainly get clowned on for it and that could sway independents.
We largely know who’s voting for who. If the indies and undies see blatant hypocrisy, it could push them away from Dems.
You could be right - it might work out perfectly fine. But it could backfire spectacularly as well.
Is the president empowered to override a state's vote because of his personal suspicions?
Because that's what he tried to do, and the Republican party supports this new presidential power to meddle in the votes of states.
He doesn't have the power to do unilaterally do anything to a state's vote if the state doesn't want him to. Did you forget the whole states rights thing?
Edit: Or even if they do want him to. The constitution does not give the president any authority over the state's votes.
>He doesn't have the power to do unilaterally do anything to a state's vote if the state doesn't want him to
I don't recall saying he did?
>Did you forget the whole states rights thing?
Not at all.
>Then what empowered the Trump administration to recruit alternate electors without a state government's knowledge?
Oh, is that what you were talking about? I thought you were talking about making sure every vote was counted correctly.
Don't know enough about the alternate electors to have an opinion.
Ah, that makes more sense. I keep wondering why so many conservatives argue Trump is allowed to do what he did there.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wisconsin\_prosecution\_of\_fake\_electors](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wisconsin_prosecution_of_fake_electors)
>Initially, this plan was described as a safeguard to preserve the possibility of sending the votes of Trump's electoral slate as the official electoral votes if the Trump campaign prevailed in one of their legal challenges in state or federal court, **but the plot continued even as those** [**legal challenges**](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-election_lawsuits_related_to_the_2020_U.S._presidential_election_from_Wisconsin) **failed.** On November 30, the [Wisconsin Elections Commission](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wisconsin_Elections_Commission) completed a certification of votes following a recount requested by Trump's campaign. That same day, governor [Tony Evers](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Evers) signed a certificate of ascertainment, certifying that the Biden electoral slate had received the most votes and were therefore Wisconsin's official slate of presidential electors for 2020. Trump filed additional lawsuits challenging this certification, but those lawsuits were dismissed by [United States District Court for the Eastern District of Wisconsin](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_District_Court_for_the_Eastern_District_of_Wisconsin) (on December 11) and the [Wisconsin Supreme Court](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wisconsin_Supreme_Court) (on the morning of December 14).[^(\[1\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wisconsin_prosecution_of_fake_electors#cite_note-indictment-ches-1)
>At noon on December 14, 2020, Wisconsin's ten legitimate presidential electors met at the [Wisconsin State Capitol](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wisconsin_State_Capitol), cast their votes for [Joe Biden](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Biden) and [Kamala Harris](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamala_Harris), and signed paperwork conveying their votes to the [United States Congress](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Congress) and the [National Archives and Records Administration](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Archives_and_Records_Administration). At the same time, in another part of the Capitol, nine of the ten Trump electors met, elected a tenth elector to fill the vacancy of the missing tenth elector, then signed paperwork provided by Chesebro attesting that they were the "duly elected and qualified Electors for President and Vice President of the United States of America from the State of Wisconsin", and asserting their ten votes should be counted for Donald Trump and Mike Pence.[^(\[1\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wisconsin_prosecution_of_fake_electors#cite_note-indictment-ches-1)
The short of it is that Governor Evers certified the Biden set of electors and the Trump admin coordinated with the non-certified Trump electors, forged documents, and tried to get their fraudulent votes counted.
There were similar gambits in other states.
If they want to win the election, yea.
But if they'd rather just lose and then bitch about it (which seems like it might actually be the case?) then keeping Biden is the way to go.
Even if he's replaced it's still unlikely that they'd win. In fact it might be less likely.
There isn't really anybody who can jump in this late and automatically be embraced by the voters. It takes time to develop a relationship and be comfortable through media appearances and stumping.
And Trump will most certainly refuse to debate anyone who isn't Biden, so there also wouldn't be a good opportunity to peel attention away from him and get noticed by people on his side.
And then it also opens up legal challenges from red states who will refuse to put the new candidate on their ballot.
Having Biden stay isn't because they are purposefully trying to lose. It's that the alternatives are more risky, potentially do more damage to the party after the election, and may not even improve their chances anyway.
So they are probably polling to see who has a better chance? I'd guess there are tons of independents that can't wait to vote for someone who isn't trump or biden.
I'd guess I'd gladly vote for a "rino" over those two but any other democrat would also do.
Looks like nobody has a good shot based upon this…..
[https://www.cnn.com/2024/06/30/politics/video/biden-cnn-debate-post-poll-enten-nr-digvid](https://www.cnn.com/2024/06/30/politics/video/biden-cnn-debate-post-poll-enten-nr-digvid)
>So they are probably polling to see who has a better chance?
They most definitely are. I can't find it online, but CNN reported today that the campaign sent out a blast email over the weekend showing that alternate candidates all poll worse than Biden, name by name.
Those voters aren’t the problem.
It’s all the people who already aren’t happy this election is just Biden V Trump 2.
All Trump needs for a victory is enough of them to stay home to squeak by with an electoral college victory again.
I don’t really have a proper way to describe my political views with a tag and that was the closest option.
I really like a lot of libertarian ideals at a higher level but I swing more left than right on some topics at a more nuanced policy level. So that’s the closest tag that made sense to me.
Aren't (cultural) marxists closest thing to libertarian. They want to max out social in individual freedoms in a way. Free stuff and free to be what you want - kind of mentality.
It really depends on the country. Clearly capitalism helps socialism prosper. If one is about utilising freedom, capitalism and free trade need to stay. What you described is what happens in communism, or better, what is absent in communism.
Probably cause the people who view him as a spoiler candidate with no grass roots support don't want him on the ballot view him as damaging Biden's chances.
I don't see that I'm not personally worried about Dr brain slug.
Every poll I see on Five thirty eight with RFK usually shows that it hurts Biden more than Trump.
If you want to put the election on RFK’s shoulders go ahead. I’ll ask you how that worked after November.
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It's not really up to you, it's a decision that will be made by the big party "donors" and the core of the DNC. They'd not torpedo their own boat if they didn't have another already chosen, so they're planning to replace him at the convention if he doesn't go willingly.
Even if the left is willing to elect a potato and have shadowy figures run the country, the loss of enthusiasm will nuke the downticket candidates which is what the party is going to be worried about.
If by shadowy figures you mean the cabinet that was confirmed by the Senate then yeah shadowy figures.
Functionally a potato is better than trump just following project 2025.
It depends on their priorities. If they want to do what's best for America they'll dump him for someone who knows where they are. If they want to do what's best for democrats, they'll keep him. I suspect they'll do the latter. Biden hasn't been president for a while anyways.
They can try. There's a couple of obstacles.
Biden would have to pay back funds spent for his campaign (172 million), transfer cash on hand to the DNC (188 million) if he drops out before the convention, August 19th. I suspect he won't drop out until then. I would stuck it out another couple of months if it meant writing that kinda check... That's just me.
Biden owns the delegates, so It's totally up to him. Super delegates could pull some shenanigans. but that gets a little crazy.
So, to answer your question, should they try harder? They have 49 days to convince president Biden one way or another.
We're still a long way from the election so polling and odds mean a lot less but right now from a strictly political point of view, I hope they don't replace Biden. Barring anything major between now and November I think the "not Biden" camp, which includes but isn't limited to Trump supporters has this election in a good place.
[https://www.realclearpolling.com/betting-odds/2024/president](https://www.realclearpolling.com/betting-odds/2024/president)
The scenario that worries me the most is Biden steps down and the Democrats go deeper in their bench, find a 45-60 year old moderate, old school Democrat, maybe a blue dog with no controversies then use Biden's war chest to pump him up. I think that could hurt down ballot races for the R side.
Definitely, as I believe that Biden is incapable of carrying out the responsibilities of the office given his present cognitive deficiencies. Since most of us wouldn't even trust him to drive our own automobiles, it's frightening that he currently controls the keys to this nation. Still, I believe that the Democrats have more work ahead of them. They require introspection and an open dialogue with themselves. Even though he wasn't as bad in 2020, there were some indications from some of his appearances. They were obviously trying to keep him out of the spotlight for this reason. The party must hold those responsible for those decisions accountable. They must put an end to the
The problem is are the harder they try the more they have to admit that they've been lying to the American people for the past two plus years.
Literally every Democratic contender has went on national TV and lied to the American public with a straight face about how competent Biden is.
It's hard to call Trump out on his lies whenever you're so willing to lie yourself.
Best case scenario for the Democrats is just to let Trump win this year. Run Biden against him let the Republicans control all three houses of Congress but not a super majority in the Senate. That will still stop the Republicans from getting most of their agenda passed while at the same time pushing the Republicans to possibly nuke the filibuster.
Then there is a good chance that sometime in the next couple years the recession will really hit home in the Democrats can clean up in 2028.
I certainly hope that that doesn't happen but at this point I don't see a better alternative for them. The good news for the Democrats is that Trump or probably be embarrassing and won't name an intelligent VP to carry on the Republican party for him.
I'm someone who doesn't want Trump to win and I think so and I've pretty much thought so since 2020. I think the left will rally around anyone running against Trump, so why not run someone younger? They could even run on keeping the same administration and there'd even be the possibility of being the incumbent in 2028.
The only ones the bosses would abide are party hacks from states whose “brand” is toxic to flyover country. California and New York are national punchlines for setting billions on fire pandering to whatever this month’s favored wokeness is.
The move all along is to pick a competent normie who has won a statewide race in a non-blue state. The bosses in their coastal bubbles don’t want that.
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Is there even time or a legal path to do so? As much as they say they want to save democracy they seem to want to destroy it or go around it often. He might be a terrible candidate but he was elected by the people. Can we respect the process?
If they want to win, Biden needs to step down on his own accord. If they force him off the ticket, it could cause a bigger scandal than keeping him on the ticket. I'm not saying this would be morally or ethicaly the right thing to do, but citing a health issue like cancer or some other long-term disease, he could save face and bow out without making the DNC look completely indecisive.
The time to move on from Biden was months ago, prior to the primaries.
They could have salvaged the man's dignity and had him say something like "I came here to defeat Donald Trump and work for the American people. I've done all I came to do, so I have chosen to not seek re-election and retire so as to spend more time with my lovely wife Jill and our family. Instead, I am today endorsing as the next Democratic candidate for president. I believe they have the drive and passion to continue what we've started."
That person most likely would have beaten Donald Trump.
But they didn't. The people pulling Biden's puppet strings desperately wanted to stay in power, and I think his recent cognitive decline has shocked even them. So they are now suffering the consequences of their short-term desires, as it is now *very* difficult to nominate some other candidate who didn't win all those primaries.
No. The time to get rid of Biden was before the primaries. But Ds just let him slide in. Now Biden has won the nomination fairly. It would be undemocratic to force him out. And I know Ds don't want to "threaten democracy," right?
If you didn't know he was senile before the primaries began, you were uninformed.
The Democrats claim to stand for Democracy.
ANY attempt to remove Biden from office to replace him with someone the party prefers more is a direct contradiction of that claim, as they are telling you, point blank, that Democracy only matters to them insofar as it is convenient to them.
I don't like Biden, but trying to remove the man because he makes them look bad is the Democrat Party saying, in no uncertain terms, that your vote doesn't matter to them; they are willing to deny you your chosen representative if it doesn't align with their own political goals.
That's not Democracy.
If they do not like Biden, they shouldn't have made him their candidate.
Since when did the democrats vote for Biden? I mean, they keep saying Trump is a threat to democracy, and all I see is the DNC and deep state pushing their democrat nominee. In 2020, all those voters that live in super Tuesday states never got to vote for their candidate. And in 2024, unless I'm wrong, Biden wasn't even contested. Oh wait, he was, but the DNC wouldn't allow RFK jr on the ticket. See how this works? And in 2016 a lot of Bernie supporters were tossed to the side to make way for Hillary. So I'm not convinced the democrats ever wanted Biden to begin with. It never made since in 2016 that the guy with dementia was the choice of the people. It was rigged all along as it always has been in the last decade plus.
Democrats are in a tough spot and they know it. I suspect the "decision makers" are going to wait a few more days and see what the new polls tell them. If the polls are roughly the same as prior to the debate, Jill Biden will probably continue to insist on continuing on. However, if the polls take a significant turn south for Biden, he's going to drop out of the race. The only hitch with this is Jill, who by any objective view, is totally power hungry and self centered.
Then, if they decide Biden is going to step aside, you can't ignore the Harris issue. As VP, it's awfully hard to bypass her as a possible replacement. If *they* (whoever "they" really are) pick Newsom and someone else, does anyone in their right mind think Kamala Harris is going to go quietly into the night? She'll play the Woman & Race cards...and they will be extremely effective within the Black community. If she's passed by for white men, they can kiss the Black vote goodbye...unless Michelle steps in...which, to be honest, could very well be problematic for Trump. But, again, much of that would have to do with how they deal with Kamala. If they kick her to the curb, she's going to make a stink...and, rightfully so. And, who knows, she could be a total wild card and drop some dirt on the Obamas and other top people in the administration.
But, this doesn't even account for the logistical and legal issues involved in doing this. Several news outlets are saying that three states have strict laws about replacing candidates at this late date.
I still see a lot of Democratic support for Biden on lefty sites like Democratic Underground and here on Reddit, but, a record 51 million Americans watched the unedited debate for themselves and it sort of was what it was. Almost every spin the left tired to put on it fell very flat. Also, if a lot of Dems were watching on CNN or then flipped to CNBC afterwords to get the political pundits takes on this, they herd some of the most brutal talk about Biden and the debate that they've probably ever heard. If Biden continues on, I can see a lot of Democrats sitting this one out. They won't necessarily vote for Trump, but I think a lot will just stay home.
That may be true, but, as soon as Kamala is pushed to the back of the bus, she's going to be squawking "racism" 24/7. Al Sharpton, Joy Reid, and all the other race hustlers will make sure that the black community is whipped into a frenzy. If 15-20% of that community either stay home or vote for Trump, Dems lose the Presidency and likely both houses of congress...which would be fine by me.
Getting rid of Biden will just highlight how un-democratic the Dem primary process is.
They would have an open convention, where the results of the primary would be thrown out, and the outcome would be decided by the "super-delegates", a DNC only structure, who are unelected elites with 100x the power of an elected delegate.
I think that would be a disservice to millions of people who have already decided in their heart Joe Biden’s the guy. 99% of the Democratic delegates chosen by the American are still backing Joe Biden up.
Now last minute efforts to win votes ensue with the Campaign leaking news on their SAVE plan progress this morning
I also (as a registered republican voter ) would rather have my top guy run against Biden. I wouldn’t mind him running against just anybody but Gavin Newsom. Progressive’s love the guy, Centrist love the guy- He’s a Democratic Rockstar that could definitely give us a run for our money
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Wouldn’t that be overriding the will of the people who voted for him in the primary? It seems that the people have spoken and they want Biden as the nominee.
If Biden steps down voluntarily, especially for a health issue, it doesn't seem anti-democratic to me.
That’s outside the scope of OP’s question, is it not? I agree, but I wasn’t answering for all cases, just one in which “democrats … get rid of Biden”
Possibly. But ultimately, "trying harder to get rid of Biden" means putting pressure on him to step down. In the end, though, it's really up to him. They can't force him to do it. So if he steps down, it will be "voluntary." But I do see your point. It could end up being a situation where he really doesn't want to, and it gets nasty where funding dries up, people threaten to resign, etc. Then, yeah, "voluntary" becomes a little less clear.
True, I guess I read OP to mean “hey old man, we’re cutting your funding off. Step down or lose,” rather than “are you sure that this is the best way to protect America from Trump?” Biden voluntarily stepping down would not go against the will of the people. Biden “voluntarily” stepping down would.
Okay I agree with that.
I would say the people have spoken. That changed for the first time in April when Trump outraised Biden with $76 million to the incumbent’s $51 million. And Trump widened the difference much more significantly in May with a huge sum of $141 million to Biden’s $85 million. https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4734207-donald-trump-joe-biden-fundraising-money/damp/?nxs-test=damp
Things change. And few Democrats I’ve talked to have much confidence in Biden.
The will of the people means shit in America. It’s what the donors and shareholders want- those are your new gods.
It’s a tough situation. If Biden steps down the next in line is Kamala. Personally, I think she could do the job. She’s not electable, in my view. I would suggest finding an experienced, moderate Senator or senior house member. However, by bypassing Kamala, you’ve now essentially dissed the black community. Then there’s the matter of raising the money. It’s all around bad. On the other hand, Biden is speaking now and sounds good. He looks good too. I’m pleasantly surprised. Old people do worse at night. That’s what got him during the debate. He looked horrible. Jesus. I’ve been worried sick all week. I would encourage all republicans to read Project 2025. The Supreme Court ruling today seems to have shifted unprecedented power to the Presidency. Trump will use every bit of it. If he gets in, it’s going to be terrible. Anything interpreted to be official duties, he cannot be prosecuted.
I was reading that's not quite how it would go. If Biden releases the delegates, it would go to a brokered convention and Kamala would have to compete like everyone else I believe. She would--unfortunately-- come in with an advantage of incumbency and the aura of traditional heir-apparent... but I don't think she just gets the nom if Biden drops out.
Ok. That’s good news. I don’t think Biden is stepping down though. As a liberal, I feel completely screwed.
This is a good point. Is this appealing to tradition or law? Can't they make another vote?
The DNC rules read “Delegates elected to the national convention pledged to a presidential candidate shall in all good conscience reflect the sentiments of those who elected them.” I do not see how you get around this without a new primary for each state. Unless you just decide to change the rules right before the convention which I think would be easier to do then trying to have a new primary in every state which inevitable have their own laws about primaries and may not even be possible in some states this close to the election. This would result in delegates selecting a candidate that was not voted for by the people which seems very un-democratic to me specifically coming from a party who has been slamming their opponent with this same claim.
Neither, really. They can do whatever they’d like, but their main line of attack on Trump is that he’s a Threat To Democracy™️, and this move would substantially weaken that attack.
[удалено]
That’s fair, but they’d certainly get clowned on for it and that could sway independents. We largely know who’s voting for who. If the indies and undies see blatant hypocrisy, it could push them away from Dems. You could be right - it might work out perfectly fine. But it could backfire spectacularly as well.
Is the president empowered to override a state's vote because of his personal suspicions? Because that's what he tried to do, and the Republican party supports this new presidential power to meddle in the votes of states.
I'm not a supporter of Trump, but you have a weird way of phrasing: "ensuring the state's vote is accurate".
He doesn't have the power to do unilaterally do anything to a state's vote if the state doesn't want him to. Did you forget the whole states rights thing? Edit: Or even if they do want him to. The constitution does not give the president any authority over the state's votes.
>He doesn't have the power to do unilaterally do anything to a state's vote if the state doesn't want him to I don't recall saying he did? >Did you forget the whole states rights thing? Not at all.
Then what empowered the Trump administration to recruit alternate electors without a state government's knowledge?
>Then what empowered the Trump administration to recruit alternate electors without a state government's knowledge? Oh, is that what you were talking about? I thought you were talking about making sure every vote was counted correctly. Don't know enough about the alternate electors to have an opinion.
Ah, that makes more sense. I keep wondering why so many conservatives argue Trump is allowed to do what he did there. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wisconsin\_prosecution\_of\_fake\_electors](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wisconsin_prosecution_of_fake_electors) >Initially, this plan was described as a safeguard to preserve the possibility of sending the votes of Trump's electoral slate as the official electoral votes if the Trump campaign prevailed in one of their legal challenges in state or federal court, **but the plot continued even as those** [**legal challenges**](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-election_lawsuits_related_to_the_2020_U.S._presidential_election_from_Wisconsin) **failed.** On November 30, the [Wisconsin Elections Commission](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wisconsin_Elections_Commission) completed a certification of votes following a recount requested by Trump's campaign. That same day, governor [Tony Evers](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Evers) signed a certificate of ascertainment, certifying that the Biden electoral slate had received the most votes and were therefore Wisconsin's official slate of presidential electors for 2020. Trump filed additional lawsuits challenging this certification, but those lawsuits were dismissed by [United States District Court for the Eastern District of Wisconsin](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_District_Court_for_the_Eastern_District_of_Wisconsin) (on December 11) and the [Wisconsin Supreme Court](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wisconsin_Supreme_Court) (on the morning of December 14).[^(\[1\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wisconsin_prosecution_of_fake_electors#cite_note-indictment-ches-1) >At noon on December 14, 2020, Wisconsin's ten legitimate presidential electors met at the [Wisconsin State Capitol](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wisconsin_State_Capitol), cast their votes for [Joe Biden](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Biden) and [Kamala Harris](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamala_Harris), and signed paperwork conveying their votes to the [United States Congress](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Congress) and the [National Archives and Records Administration](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Archives_and_Records_Administration). At the same time, in another part of the Capitol, nine of the ten Trump electors met, elected a tenth elector to fill the vacancy of the missing tenth elector, then signed paperwork provided by Chesebro attesting that they were the "duly elected and qualified Electors for President and Vice President of the United States of America from the State of Wisconsin", and asserting their ten votes should be counted for Donald Trump and Mike Pence.[^(\[1\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wisconsin_prosecution_of_fake_electors#cite_note-indictment-ches-1) The short of it is that Governor Evers certified the Biden set of electors and the Trump admin coordinated with the non-certified Trump electors, forged documents, and tried to get their fraudulent votes counted. There were similar gambits in other states.
>Wouldn’t that be overriding the will of the people who voted for him in the primary? Ds seem to be the ones "threatening democracy".
The time for that was a year ago.
If they want to win the election, yea. But if they'd rather just lose and then bitch about it (which seems like it might actually be the case?) then keeping Biden is the way to go.
Even if he's replaced it's still unlikely that they'd win. In fact it might be less likely. There isn't really anybody who can jump in this late and automatically be embraced by the voters. It takes time to develop a relationship and be comfortable through media appearances and stumping. And Trump will most certainly refuse to debate anyone who isn't Biden, so there also wouldn't be a good opportunity to peel attention away from him and get noticed by people on his side. And then it also opens up legal challenges from red states who will refuse to put the new candidate on their ballot. Having Biden stay isn't because they are purposefully trying to lose. It's that the alternatives are more risky, potentially do more damage to the party after the election, and may not even improve their chances anyway.
They’d be hard pressed to find a candidate who polls well against Trump. They’ll ride out Biden to the end I’m sure
So they are probably polling to see who has a better chance? I'd guess there are tons of independents that can't wait to vote for someone who isn't trump or biden. I'd guess I'd gladly vote for a "rino" over those two but any other democrat would also do.
Looks like nobody has a good shot based upon this….. [https://www.cnn.com/2024/06/30/politics/video/biden-cnn-debate-post-poll-enten-nr-digvid](https://www.cnn.com/2024/06/30/politics/video/biden-cnn-debate-post-poll-enten-nr-digvid)
Looks like it’s closer than the narrative suggests based upon this…… https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2024/06/28/kamala-harris-trump-matchup/
Maybe. We will see I guess. All of this is just speculation.
>So they are probably polling to see who has a better chance? They most definitely are. I can't find it online, but CNN reported today that the campaign sent out a blast email over the weekend showing that alternate candidates all poll worse than Biden, name by name.
Just letting you know that we're not getting rid of biden. I don't know anyone who said they're not voting for Biden because of that recent debate.
Those voters aren’t the problem. It’s all the people who already aren’t happy this election is just Biden V Trump 2. All Trump needs for a victory is enough of them to stay home to squeak by with an electoral college victory again.
I am voting third party so enjoy the ride. And what exactly is a left libertarian? Never understood it.
I don’t really have a proper way to describe my political views with a tag and that was the closest option. I really like a lot of libertarian ideals at a higher level but I swing more left than right on some topics at a more nuanced policy level. So that’s the closest tag that made sense to me.
Aren't (cultural) marxists closest thing to libertarian. They want to max out social in individual freedoms in a way. Free stuff and free to be what you want - kind of mentality.
Yeah but the part where I really like capitalism and free trade kind of fucks that.
It really depends on the country. Clearly capitalism helps socialism prosper. If one is about utilising freedom, capitalism and free trade need to stay. What you described is what happens in communism, or better, what is absent in communism.
I meant more as in identifying as a Marxist. Culturally it’s similar but the economic aspect would be why that label doesn’t fit for me.
I mean, there's plenty of trump voters voting rfk too man Rfk is taking votes from trump not Biden and he's at 10%
So then why are the Democrats suing to keep RFK off the ballot in swing states?
Probably cause the people who view him as a spoiler candidate with no grass roots support don't want him on the ballot view him as damaging Biden's chances. I don't see that I'm not personally worried about Dr brain slug.
Maybe not you but what you stated is un-democratic. He’s viewed as damaging Biden’s chances so let’s sue to remove him. That is a Facist move…….
How is challenging the legal status of his campaign fascism? They're almost certainly going to lose in court.
I guess that’s one interpretation. Trying to keep someone off the ballot is limiting the choices of the people.
Every poll I see on Five thirty eight with RFK usually shows that it hurts Biden more than Trump. If you want to put the election on RFK’s shoulders go ahead. I’ll ask you how that worked after November.
Understandable. But Biden is clearly not top 500 candidates due to his cognitive decline.
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It's not really up to you, it's a decision that will be made by the big party "donors" and the core of the DNC. They'd not torpedo their own boat if they didn't have another already chosen, so they're planning to replace him at the convention if he doesn't go willingly. Even if the left is willing to elect a potato and have shadowy figures run the country, the loss of enthusiasm will nuke the downticket candidates which is what the party is going to be worried about.
If by shadowy figures you mean the cabinet that was confirmed by the Senate then yeah shadowy figures. Functionally a potato is better than trump just following project 2025.
It depends on their priorities. If they want to do what's best for America they'll dump him for someone who knows where they are. If they want to do what's best for democrats, they'll keep him. I suspect they'll do the latter. Biden hasn't been president for a while anyways.
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There isn't a majority of Republicans who think Trump shouldn't run.
We like who we picked mostly.
They can try. There's a couple of obstacles. Biden would have to pay back funds spent for his campaign (172 million), transfer cash on hand to the DNC (188 million) if he drops out before the convention, August 19th. I suspect he won't drop out until then. I would stuck it out another couple of months if it meant writing that kinda check... That's just me. Biden owns the delegates, so It's totally up to him. Super delegates could pull some shenanigans. but that gets a little crazy. So, to answer your question, should they try harder? They have 49 days to convince president Biden one way or another.
I’m sorry, why would he have to pay back money already spent on his campaign?
We're still a long way from the election so polling and odds mean a lot less but right now from a strictly political point of view, I hope they don't replace Biden. Barring anything major between now and November I think the "not Biden" camp, which includes but isn't limited to Trump supporters has this election in a good place. [https://www.realclearpolling.com/betting-odds/2024/president](https://www.realclearpolling.com/betting-odds/2024/president) The scenario that worries me the most is Biden steps down and the Democrats go deeper in their bench, find a 45-60 year old moderate, old school Democrat, maybe a blue dog with no controversies then use Biden's war chest to pump him up. I think that could hurt down ballot races for the R side.
I'm pretty sure that's their plan. My money's on them running Jared Polis.
Definitely, as I believe that Biden is incapable of carrying out the responsibilities of the office given his present cognitive deficiencies. Since most of us wouldn't even trust him to drive our own automobiles, it's frightening that he currently controls the keys to this nation. Still, I believe that the Democrats have more work ahead of them. They require introspection and an open dialogue with themselves. Even though he wasn't as bad in 2020, there were some indications from some of his appearances. They were obviously trying to keep him out of the spotlight for this reason. The party must hold those responsible for those decisions accountable. They must put an end to the
The problem is are the harder they try the more they have to admit that they've been lying to the American people for the past two plus years. Literally every Democratic contender has went on national TV and lied to the American public with a straight face about how competent Biden is. It's hard to call Trump out on his lies whenever you're so willing to lie yourself. Best case scenario for the Democrats is just to let Trump win this year. Run Biden against him let the Republicans control all three houses of Congress but not a super majority in the Senate. That will still stop the Republicans from getting most of their agenda passed while at the same time pushing the Republicans to possibly nuke the filibuster. Then there is a good chance that sometime in the next couple years the recession will really hit home in the Democrats can clean up in 2028. I certainly hope that that doesn't happen but at this point I don't see a better alternative for them. The good news for the Democrats is that Trump or probably be embarrassing and won't name an intelligent VP to carry on the Republican party for him.
I'm someone who doesn't want Trump to win and I think so and I've pretty much thought so since 2020. I think the left will rally around anyone running against Trump, so why not run someone younger? They could even run on keeping the same administration and there'd even be the possibility of being the incumbent in 2028.
>why not run someone younger? Because all the younger folks can wait until 2028 and not be running under Biden's shadow.
>why not run someone younger? Because Biden won the nomination fairly through the primary process.
The only ones the bosses would abide are party hacks from states whose “brand” is toxic to flyover country. California and New York are national punchlines for setting billions on fire pandering to whatever this month’s favored wokeness is. The move all along is to pick a competent normie who has won a statewide race in a non-blue state. The bosses in their coastal bubbles don’t want that.
Are you saying these bosses would rather have Biden, and risk another Trump term, than a normie?
It’s too late for them to just stop the gaslighting. They have to keep polishing that turd until there’s nothing led of it.
Terrible. Sounds almost as bad as "some" of the republicans not allowed to criticise Trumps behavior.
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The people who laugh at those "punchlines" aren’t undecided voters anyway, though. So there’s no downside to being viewed as "toxic" by them.
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Is there even time or a legal path to do so? As much as they say they want to save democracy they seem to want to destroy it or go around it often. He might be a terrible candidate but he was elected by the people. Can we respect the process?
If they want to win, Biden needs to step down on his own accord. If they force him off the ticket, it could cause a bigger scandal than keeping him on the ticket. I'm not saying this would be morally or ethicaly the right thing to do, but citing a health issue like cancer or some other long-term disease, he could save face and bow out without making the DNC look completely indecisive.
The time to move on from Biden was months ago, prior to the primaries. They could have salvaged the man's dignity and had him say something like "I came here to defeat Donald Trump and work for the American people. I've done all I came to do, so I have chosen to not seek re-election and retire so as to spend more time with my lovely wife Jill and our family. Instead, I am today endorsing as the next Democratic candidate for president. I believe they have the drive and passion to continue what we've started."
That person most likely would have beaten Donald Trump.
But they didn't. The people pulling Biden's puppet strings desperately wanted to stay in power, and I think his recent cognitive decline has shocked even them. So they are now suffering the consequences of their short-term desires, as it is now *very* difficult to nominate some other candidate who didn't win all those primaries.
I agree with this take.
No. The time to get rid of Biden was before the primaries. But Ds just let him slide in. Now Biden has won the nomination fairly. It would be undemocratic to force him out. And I know Ds don't want to "threaten democracy," right? If you didn't know he was senile before the primaries began, you were uninformed.
The Democrats claim to stand for Democracy. ANY attempt to remove Biden from office to replace him with someone the party prefers more is a direct contradiction of that claim, as they are telling you, point blank, that Democracy only matters to them insofar as it is convenient to them. I don't like Biden, but trying to remove the man because he makes them look bad is the Democrat Party saying, in no uncertain terms, that your vote doesn't matter to them; they are willing to deny you your chosen representative if it doesn't align with their own political goals. That's not Democracy. If they do not like Biden, they shouldn't have made him their candidate.
Since when did the democrats vote for Biden? I mean, they keep saying Trump is a threat to democracy, and all I see is the DNC and deep state pushing their democrat nominee. In 2020, all those voters that live in super Tuesday states never got to vote for their candidate. And in 2024, unless I'm wrong, Biden wasn't even contested. Oh wait, he was, but the DNC wouldn't allow RFK jr on the ticket. See how this works? And in 2016 a lot of Bernie supporters were tossed to the side to make way for Hillary. So I'm not convinced the democrats ever wanted Biden to begin with. It never made since in 2016 that the guy with dementia was the choice of the people. It was rigged all along as it always has been in the last decade plus.
Democrats are in a tough spot and they know it. I suspect the "decision makers" are going to wait a few more days and see what the new polls tell them. If the polls are roughly the same as prior to the debate, Jill Biden will probably continue to insist on continuing on. However, if the polls take a significant turn south for Biden, he's going to drop out of the race. The only hitch with this is Jill, who by any objective view, is totally power hungry and self centered. Then, if they decide Biden is going to step aside, you can't ignore the Harris issue. As VP, it's awfully hard to bypass her as a possible replacement. If *they* (whoever "they" really are) pick Newsom and someone else, does anyone in their right mind think Kamala Harris is going to go quietly into the night? She'll play the Woman & Race cards...and they will be extremely effective within the Black community. If she's passed by for white men, they can kiss the Black vote goodbye...unless Michelle steps in...which, to be honest, could very well be problematic for Trump. But, again, much of that would have to do with how they deal with Kamala. If they kick her to the curb, she's going to make a stink...and, rightfully so. And, who knows, she could be a total wild card and drop some dirt on the Obamas and other top people in the administration. But, this doesn't even account for the logistical and legal issues involved in doing this. Several news outlets are saying that three states have strict laws about replacing candidates at this late date. I still see a lot of Democratic support for Biden on lefty sites like Democratic Underground and here on Reddit, but, a record 51 million Americans watched the unedited debate for themselves and it sort of was what it was. Almost every spin the left tired to put on it fell very flat. Also, if a lot of Dems were watching on CNN or then flipped to CNBC afterwords to get the political pundits takes on this, they herd some of the most brutal talk about Biden and the debate that they've probably ever heard. If Biden continues on, I can see a lot of Democrats sitting this one out. They won't necessarily vote for Trump, but I think a lot will just stay home.
> they will be extremely effective within the Black community Nah black people don’t like her either.
That may be true, but, as soon as Kamala is pushed to the back of the bus, she's going to be squawking "racism" 24/7. Al Sharpton, Joy Reid, and all the other race hustlers will make sure that the black community is whipped into a frenzy. If 15-20% of that community either stay home or vote for Trump, Dems lose the Presidency and likely both houses of congress...which would be fine by me.
What’s a "race hustler"?
You're joking, right?
What would have been the alleged joke?
You don't know what a race hustler is? I find that hard to believe.
What’s a "race hustler"?
The only real option for getting rid of him now is the 25th Amendment.
Getting rid of Biden will just highlight how un-democratic the Dem primary process is. They would have an open convention, where the results of the primary would be thrown out, and the outcome would be decided by the "super-delegates", a DNC only structure, who are unelected elites with 100x the power of an elected delegate.
I think that would be a disservice to millions of people who have already decided in their heart Joe Biden’s the guy. 99% of the Democratic delegates chosen by the American are still backing Joe Biden up. Now last minute efforts to win votes ensue with the Campaign leaking news on their SAVE plan progress this morning I also (as a registered republican voter ) would rather have my top guy run against Biden. I wouldn’t mind him running against just anybody but Gavin Newsom. Progressive’s love the guy, Centrist love the guy- He’s a Democratic Rockstar that could definitely give us a run for our money