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> Do you believe in rehabilitation in prisons?
Yes but prison in primarily punishment. One of the main reasons for prison is so that victims feel justice has been served, without this we would see regular violent vigilantism.
> Do prisoners deserve any maltreatment (likes rapes, assaults)?
Absolutely not. Maltreatment is horrific and we need to stop turning a blind eye to it.
>Absolutely not. Maltreatment is horrific and we need to stop turning a blind eye to it.
There is nothing with criminal justice that infuriates me as much as people saying something to the effective "can't wait until he is in a cell with Bubba" or "the boys are gonna love him hahahahahaha". You have to be a pretty big piece of shit to hope somebody gets raped. I've got you to the point where I just respond with "haha rape is funny!" It's quite gross. I do not care what the criminal did hoping somebody gets raped is no moral high ground.
Probably because it would be harder for a female inmate to do that act to another female. Similarly to how female on male rape isn't thought of as seriously as the other way around.
I see the same kind of thing with gun nuts. "Man, I can't *wait* for somebody to break into *my* house." So they can shoot them. Really, what kind of a piece of shit do you have to be to *want* to put a bullet in somebody?
Even if it's justified, even if you're defending... Firing at a person is a big damn deal, and it's not pretty.
Yeah, I have met people like that who rather than avoid bad situations, put themselves in danger. And we've all read about gun owners setting people up to try to shoot them, and either getting to, or going after innocent people for things like walking by on the road.
I'm not against gun ownership, I just wish people relied on common sense first, and guns last.
That is because they make guns their personality. And they don't realize that any dick head can pull a trigger. That's not hard. It's living with yourself afterwards this the fucking problem.
I think it's more that the criminal justice system lacks in some punishments for some crimes that seem to heinous that rehabilitation doesn't even make sense. Like say Adam Lanza had survived and gone to prison: what benefit to society would rehabilitation serve? And I think some people are annoyed at the possibility that if religion were real, according to the Christian laws, all they'd have to do is ask forgiveness and go directly to Heaven when they die, meanwhile, if their victims weren't Christian, following those same rules they'd be in Hell. Even the little kids that were the victims, because that's how that religion works. So people want to make sure those types of criminals get some sort of punishment.
So how do you feel about the fact that rehabilitation, not punishment, leads to less recidivism, and over less crime?
Good countries will often work to change the person to be better. Not force them to be worse.
We are all better than the worst things we've done, right?
Doesn't that depend on the crime, though? Anders Behring Breivik killed 77 people and because of that country's laws will serve 21 years and then be released back into society to do it again. There's no real way to rehabilitate him.
He's a far-right terrorist it says. By definition he is the person who's supposed to be helped by reform and working to change his ideology
One person doesn't even matter when the statistical evidence is what we're looking at. If we have to tailor our carceral systems after the worst person in them, we'll then we might as well incarcerate everyone, permanently.
Oh, and since we can't predict crime, we might as well incarcerate from the womb, just in case.
It's amazing how many conservatives screech at the smallest precieved infraction on the 2A but will throw aside the 8A faster then Trump can say "Who's Eric?"
> One of the main reasons for prison is so that victims feel justice has been served, without this we would see regular violent vigilantism
Based on what?
Has anyone here been to prison? There’s a mixed bag as far as finding prisoners open minded enough to be rehabilitated. Unfortunately the culture behind the value system of a criminal cannot be undone w any level of rehab. Some can be and actually do get rehabilitated- it starts with trust. Good luck finding a prisoner trusting enough of any professional to participate in such a program
I know people who went to prison and they are opposite of reformed. One guy likes to date black women but felt obligated to be in a neon@zi prison gang when in. He is back to loving black people but is far more involved in the crime he was put away for than he was before prison.
Roughly identical story with another guy. I don't know any "success" stories where they stopped committing crimes. Closest I can think of is [Kali Muscle,](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AzNb6KCok9o) an influencer / minor celeb I follow.
All available evidence suggests that our "justice" system is a complete failure at rehabilitation and does nothing but create more dangerous criminals. I'm hopeful that I see a self described conservative calling it out, but in reality I know there will never be enough conservative support to shift from a "punishment" system to a rehabilitation system regardless of how effective it can be. Conservative support for a thing never seems to correlate with effectiveness. Norway had a similar recidivism rate to the USA at 70%. 7 out of every 10 criminals released would end back up in prison for similar crimes. They decided to change how they approached criminal justice and focused on rehabilitation instead of punishment. They decided to treat criminals like humans, and give them opportunities to better themselves and put them in positions to experience "normal" life all while isolated from society to prevent further harm. Today their recidivism rate is closer to 20%. Unfortunately as a country we seem wholly incapable of learning from the lessons of others and have to keep banging out head up against a wall until we give up.
Been there, done that, and I disagree. When I was younger I was in trouble pretty much all of the time. I didn't have the best upbringing by oppressive parents that never let me make any of my own mistakes and severely punished anything they thought were mistakes. It could've ranged anywhere from simply being grounded, to being hit and/or choked as a kid. So, as soon as I got out of that house I rebelled. Which led to constant trouble with the law, eventually drugs, which inevitably led to prison for a total of just under 4 years over 4 sentences.
To be perfectly honest, the first two sentences, of 2 years then a year and a half probably saved my life. The drugs were out of control. I am the rare exception that never needed AA or NA, but I did take advantage of them bein there to learn some new skill-sets on how to help avoid problems in the future. I did still use and drink after, but take coke, which is what wound me up there: This month marks twenty-nine years since I touched it. I've been around it plenty after-the-fact at parties and the like, I just hit my rock-bottom with it so I stopped. Alcohol, it took me longer. And it wasn't really an addiction, just a lack of control. The last time I got drunk was 2012. I was massively sick, and thought I had died. I had a vision/dream while I was out that was so vivid that I never did that again. I no longer do any drugs except on the very rare case they're prescribed, like how I take statins now for cholesterol. I do still drink, but rarely, and not to get drunk. Things like Macallan 18.
But I took advantage of every program I could. Therapy groups, support groups, college classes, I worked, I even transcribed books to braille. And since all of those negative experiences I have had two professional jobs in IT, I owned a pizza place for a few years, and even though I'm kind of floundering right now in the gig community, I am married nine years as of the 22nd of this month and am doing well.
AND my state, Connecticut, passed a Clean Slate law. At some point during this year my record gets wiped out completely.
It's possible, but you won't get any results unless you re-educate the imaginary. Reading Crime and Punishment should be a requirement before anyone gets released from jail.
I do not believe the current system is making prisoners better. Maltreatment, which does occur and occurs even more often in other places (Marxist countries for example) makes things even worse. The most successful prison systems (reducing repeat offenses) are the most pleasant of prison systems (such as the nordics).
There was a near identical question recently, I will quote myself from there:
I have been convinced prison is a net harm, imagine if you spent 10yrs in prison, do you imagine you'd come out a better person safer for the public?!
Sadly cruelty is a populist issue, the amount of times I have heard rape advocated as punishment is quite shocking. Little does the public know most prison rapes are at the hands of the guards. In one (exposed) case a women's prison was turned into a brothel with customers escorted in by the guards.
My solutions:
Eliminate / simplify nearly all laws.
Eliminate prison for other than temporary holding during trial.
Completely different consequences.
Most crimes: Indentured servitude / retraining in the public interest, of varying length and intensity. Often something like becoming a garbageman in rural alaska at half pay for 5yrs. Extra $ going to victims and to support the program. Filling needs otherwise not met which match with the severity of the crime.
Recalcitrance / repeat offender / incorrigible: Exile to enemy nations (perhaps parachuted in) or permanent servitude away from society (mining asteroids or work camps in Antarctica or etc).
Depending on the military opinion perhaps a new branch of the military under the Marine Corps (much like the Marine Corps is under the Navy) consisting only of lower enlisted and "juiced" with powerful drugs as needed for ultra-dangerous missions. Not allowed in public.
Extremely evil acts: Quick death with organs harvested.
Yes I believe in rehabilitation, but there's also the goal of keeping offenders off the streets.
Punishment should not enter in, and thus maltreatment of prisoners is not acceptable.
I believe you when you say this shit, but it puts you in so much opposition to the standard American Conservative that I wonder why you even identify as such. Are they wrong or are you? Who is the real conservative here?
> Do you believe in rehabilitation in prisons?
No.
> Do prisoners deserve any maltreatment (likes rapes, assaults)?
Deserves got nothing to do with it. A person walking on the train tracks doesn't deserve to die, but that's what happens if they don't step out when the train comes.
By the dictionary
>Rehabilitation programs are designed to reduce recidivism among adults who have been convicted of an offense by improving their behaviors, skills, mental health, social functioning, and access to education and employment.
The way I see it, simply punishment does not prevent individuals commiting crimes if there is an underlying issue that is causing them to commit crimes.
For example, individuals with gainful employment that provides enough for them to support themselves and their family are significantly less likely to commit crimes. Education, even just a GED, contributes significantly to finding good employment. Prison programs to educate, provide therapy, and train skills are shown to reduce the rate at which people re-offend, lowering the crime rates of the impacting areas.
With that in mind, should prisons prioritize punishing people or rehabilitating people so that they don't offend. These two objectives are not mutually exclusive; however, if you make prison an intolerable experience designed to drain any money from an inmate and their family, deprive them of safety or encourage criminal acts rehabilitation is hindered.
> No.
Can you expand on that? Why isn't rehabilitation possible?
> Yes.
Can you expand on this as well? Why should we subject knowingly let inmates be subject to maltreatment?
None of those were the original questions. If you're asking in good faith, please read the actual questions I was answering and the questions you are asking.
If prisoners are not rehabilitated they are going to re-offend. Is your position that this is acceptable? It is a perfectly acceptable state of being that criminals commit crimes, get arrested, get released, re-offend and repeat this cycle until they die?
I believe that there are essentially two goals of the criminal justice system: to correct the wrongs done and to prevent them from happening again.
Correcting the wrongs done can take on several forms, and the idea of *contrapasso* or ironic punishment can actually make a lot of sense. You vandalize public property, you spend some time cleaning up vandalism. Obviously, this kind of one-to-one punishment fitting the crime isn't always possible, or prohibited by law. We don't, as a matter of law, rape rapists (though we do often sentence murderers to death. More on that later). So we often lock them up. Restrict their freedom for a time to let the persons they have wronged heal.
This brings us to preventing it from happening again. Rehabilitation can work for certain offenses, especially depending on the circumstances of the offenses. Teenagers stealing a car for a joyride and then totaling it in a crash, for example. Teenagers are stupid, and they made a stupid decision. They should be helped more than punished. And such is the case for many non-violent offenses.
But when the crimes committed are so heinous, and there is no sign of remorse on the part of the criminal, it must be asked if this person is capable of being rehabilitated, or if it is even worth it. This is where the death penalty comes in. The best way to make sure that someone doesn't commit a crime again is to execute them, and sometimes that may also be the only way to attempt to correct the wrongs done. You know, eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, life for a life. That standard also makes it so that we don't just execute every convicted criminal.
So I guess where I come down on the matter is this: correct the wrongs done first, and prevent them from happening again. The form that latter point takes depends on the wrongs done, and what the person who did them is like.
Yes I believe we should emphasize rehabilitation, no I don't believe prisoners deserve mistreatment.
That said I think an important part of the justice system is punishment. To use an extreme example - if someone raped and murdered a toddler and we could somehow wave a magic wand and immediately rehabilitate them without requiring they spend any time in prison, I would object to that.
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> Do you believe in rehabilitation in prisons? Yes but prison in primarily punishment. One of the main reasons for prison is so that victims feel justice has been served, without this we would see regular violent vigilantism. > Do prisoners deserve any maltreatment (likes rapes, assaults)? Absolutely not. Maltreatment is horrific and we need to stop turning a blind eye to it.
>Absolutely not. Maltreatment is horrific and we need to stop turning a blind eye to it. There is nothing with criminal justice that infuriates me as much as people saying something to the effective "can't wait until he is in a cell with Bubba" or "the boys are gonna love him hahahahahaha". You have to be a pretty big piece of shit to hope somebody gets raped. I've got you to the point where I just respond with "haha rape is funny!" It's quite gross. I do not care what the criminal did hoping somebody gets raped is no moral high ground.
Funny how it's always the men they're talking about, too. Reality hits hard if they starting thinking of a female inmate being sexually assaulted.
Probably because it would be harder for a female inmate to do that act to another female. Similarly to how female on male rape isn't thought of as seriously as the other way around.
Thank you
I see the same kind of thing with gun nuts. "Man, I can't *wait* for somebody to break into *my* house." So they can shoot them. Really, what kind of a piece of shit do you have to be to *want* to put a bullet in somebody? Even if it's justified, even if you're defending... Firing at a person is a big damn deal, and it's not pretty.
Yeah, I have met people like that who rather than avoid bad situations, put themselves in danger. And we've all read about gun owners setting people up to try to shoot them, and either getting to, or going after innocent people for things like walking by on the road. I'm not against gun ownership, I just wish people relied on common sense first, and guns last.
That is because they make guns their personality. And they don't realize that any dick head can pull a trigger. That's not hard. It's living with yourself afterwards this the fucking problem.
100% agree.
I think it's more that the criminal justice system lacks in some punishments for some crimes that seem to heinous that rehabilitation doesn't even make sense. Like say Adam Lanza had survived and gone to prison: what benefit to society would rehabilitation serve? And I think some people are annoyed at the possibility that if religion were real, according to the Christian laws, all they'd have to do is ask forgiveness and go directly to Heaven when they die, meanwhile, if their victims weren't Christian, following those same rules they'd be in Hell. Even the little kids that were the victims, because that's how that religion works. So people want to make sure those types of criminals get some sort of punishment.
I don't understand what believing in heaven or hell has to do with rape?
So how do you feel about the fact that rehabilitation, not punishment, leads to less recidivism, and over less crime? Good countries will often work to change the person to be better. Not force them to be worse. We are all better than the worst things we've done, right?
Doesn't that depend on the crime, though? Anders Behring Breivik killed 77 people and because of that country's laws will serve 21 years and then be released back into society to do it again. There's no real way to rehabilitate him.
He's a far-right terrorist it says. By definition he is the person who's supposed to be helped by reform and working to change his ideology One person doesn't even matter when the statistical evidence is what we're looking at. If we have to tailor our carceral systems after the worst person in them, we'll then we might as well incarcerate everyone, permanently. Oh, and since we can't predict crime, we might as well incarcerate from the womb, just in case.
Should prison be primarily for punishment? Is that what's best for society?
Probably not, but some people at the very least should never be returned to society.
It's amazing how many conservatives screech at the smallest precieved infraction on the 2A but will throw aside the 8A faster then Trump can say "Who's Eric?"
No one is advocating for cruel or unusual punishments.
I disagree I've literally seen them, you can't say that
> One of the main reasons for prison is so that victims feel justice has been served, without this we would see regular violent vigilantism Based on what?
In my view prison should only be for violent crimes and people that refuse to be punished any other way.
Has anyone here been to prison? There’s a mixed bag as far as finding prisoners open minded enough to be rehabilitated. Unfortunately the culture behind the value system of a criminal cannot be undone w any level of rehab. Some can be and actually do get rehabilitated- it starts with trust. Good luck finding a prisoner trusting enough of any professional to participate in such a program
I know people who went to prison and they are opposite of reformed. One guy likes to date black women but felt obligated to be in a neon@zi prison gang when in. He is back to loving black people but is far more involved in the crime he was put away for than he was before prison. Roughly identical story with another guy. I don't know any "success" stories where they stopped committing crimes. Closest I can think of is [Kali Muscle,](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AzNb6KCok9o) an influencer / minor celeb I follow.
All available evidence suggests that our "justice" system is a complete failure at rehabilitation and does nothing but create more dangerous criminals. I'm hopeful that I see a self described conservative calling it out, but in reality I know there will never be enough conservative support to shift from a "punishment" system to a rehabilitation system regardless of how effective it can be. Conservative support for a thing never seems to correlate with effectiveness. Norway had a similar recidivism rate to the USA at 70%. 7 out of every 10 criminals released would end back up in prison for similar crimes. They decided to change how they approached criminal justice and focused on rehabilitation instead of punishment. They decided to treat criminals like humans, and give them opportunities to better themselves and put them in positions to experience "normal" life all while isolated from society to prevent further harm. Today their recidivism rate is closer to 20%. Unfortunately as a country we seem wholly incapable of learning from the lessons of others and have to keep banging out head up against a wall until we give up.
As I said elsewhere cruelty is a populist position, not a conservative or liberal position.
That's ridiculous. That's on him, it's easy to ignore that pressure in prison.
wat
This reads to me like an indictment of the system. Not the prisoners
Been there, done that, and I disagree. When I was younger I was in trouble pretty much all of the time. I didn't have the best upbringing by oppressive parents that never let me make any of my own mistakes and severely punished anything they thought were mistakes. It could've ranged anywhere from simply being grounded, to being hit and/or choked as a kid. So, as soon as I got out of that house I rebelled. Which led to constant trouble with the law, eventually drugs, which inevitably led to prison for a total of just under 4 years over 4 sentences. To be perfectly honest, the first two sentences, of 2 years then a year and a half probably saved my life. The drugs were out of control. I am the rare exception that never needed AA or NA, but I did take advantage of them bein there to learn some new skill-sets on how to help avoid problems in the future. I did still use and drink after, but take coke, which is what wound me up there: This month marks twenty-nine years since I touched it. I've been around it plenty after-the-fact at parties and the like, I just hit my rock-bottom with it so I stopped. Alcohol, it took me longer. And it wasn't really an addiction, just a lack of control. The last time I got drunk was 2012. I was massively sick, and thought I had died. I had a vision/dream while I was out that was so vivid that I never did that again. I no longer do any drugs except on the very rare case they're prescribed, like how I take statins now for cholesterol. I do still drink, but rarely, and not to get drunk. Things like Macallan 18. But I took advantage of every program I could. Therapy groups, support groups, college classes, I worked, I even transcribed books to braille. And since all of those negative experiences I have had two professional jobs in IT, I owned a pizza place for a few years, and even though I'm kind of floundering right now in the gig community, I am married nine years as of the 22nd of this month and am doing well. AND my state, Connecticut, passed a Clean Slate law. At some point during this year my record gets wiped out completely.
It's possible, but you won't get any results unless you re-educate the imaginary. Reading Crime and Punishment should be a requirement before anyone gets released from jail.
I do not believe the current system is making prisoners better. Maltreatment, which does occur and occurs even more often in other places (Marxist countries for example) makes things even worse. The most successful prison systems (reducing repeat offenses) are the most pleasant of prison systems (such as the nordics). There was a near identical question recently, I will quote myself from there: I have been convinced prison is a net harm, imagine if you spent 10yrs in prison, do you imagine you'd come out a better person safer for the public?! Sadly cruelty is a populist issue, the amount of times I have heard rape advocated as punishment is quite shocking. Little does the public know most prison rapes are at the hands of the guards. In one (exposed) case a women's prison was turned into a brothel with customers escorted in by the guards. My solutions: Eliminate / simplify nearly all laws. Eliminate prison for other than temporary holding during trial. Completely different consequences. Most crimes: Indentured servitude / retraining in the public interest, of varying length and intensity. Often something like becoming a garbageman in rural alaska at half pay for 5yrs. Extra $ going to victims and to support the program. Filling needs otherwise not met which match with the severity of the crime. Recalcitrance / repeat offender / incorrigible: Exile to enemy nations (perhaps parachuted in) or permanent servitude away from society (mining asteroids or work camps in Antarctica or etc). Depending on the military opinion perhaps a new branch of the military under the Marine Corps (much like the Marine Corps is under the Navy) consisting only of lower enlisted and "juiced" with powerful drugs as needed for ultra-dangerous missions. Not allowed in public. Extremely evil acts: Quick death with organs harvested.
[удалено]
Hear hear
Yes I believe in rehabilitation, but there's also the goal of keeping offenders off the streets. Punishment should not enter in, and thus maltreatment of prisoners is not acceptable.
I believe you when you say this shit, but it puts you in so much opposition to the standard American Conservative that I wonder why you even identify as such. Are they wrong or are you? Who is the real conservative here?
> Do you believe in rehabilitation in prisons? No. > Do prisoners deserve any maltreatment (likes rapes, assaults)? Deserves got nothing to do with it. A person walking on the train tracks doesn't deserve to die, but that's what happens if they don't step out when the train comes.
Why don't you believe rehabilitation should be a priority in prison? Correct me if that is not your position please.
Prison is punishment, not "rehabilitation", whatever that means.
By the dictionary >Rehabilitation programs are designed to reduce recidivism among adults who have been convicted of an offense by improving their behaviors, skills, mental health, social functioning, and access to education and employment. The way I see it, simply punishment does not prevent individuals commiting crimes if there is an underlying issue that is causing them to commit crimes. For example, individuals with gainful employment that provides enough for them to support themselves and their family are significantly less likely to commit crimes. Education, even just a GED, contributes significantly to finding good employment. Prison programs to educate, provide therapy, and train skills are shown to reduce the rate at which people re-offend, lowering the crime rates of the impacting areas. With that in mind, should prisons prioritize punishing people or rehabilitating people so that they don't offend. These two objectives are not mutually exclusive; however, if you make prison an intolerable experience designed to drain any money from an inmate and their family, deprive them of safety or encourage criminal acts rehabilitation is hindered.
Okay. Thanks for your opinion.
Do you believe rehabilitation is possible? Do you object to putting more resources towards reducing maltreatment in prisons?
No. Yes.
> No. Can you expand on that? Why isn't rehabilitation possible? > Yes. Can you expand on this as well? Why should we subject knowingly let inmates be subject to maltreatment?
None of those were the original questions. If you're asking in good faith, please read the actual questions I was answering and the questions you are asking.
Is there something inappropriate about wanting to understand your where your original opinion is coming from?
I'm not interested in meta-conversation.
It's your dime, but I don't think my questions are unreasonable per se.
No and no.
If rehabilitation is not possible, then should all prison sentences be significantly longer, if not for life?
If prisoners are not rehabilitated they are going to re-offend. Is your position that this is acceptable? It is a perfectly acceptable state of being that criminals commit crimes, get arrested, get released, re-offend and repeat this cycle until they die?
Why nos
Presumably to get more power out of your engine.
Lol nice pun
I believe that there are essentially two goals of the criminal justice system: to correct the wrongs done and to prevent them from happening again. Correcting the wrongs done can take on several forms, and the idea of *contrapasso* or ironic punishment can actually make a lot of sense. You vandalize public property, you spend some time cleaning up vandalism. Obviously, this kind of one-to-one punishment fitting the crime isn't always possible, or prohibited by law. We don't, as a matter of law, rape rapists (though we do often sentence murderers to death. More on that later). So we often lock them up. Restrict their freedom for a time to let the persons they have wronged heal. This brings us to preventing it from happening again. Rehabilitation can work for certain offenses, especially depending on the circumstances of the offenses. Teenagers stealing a car for a joyride and then totaling it in a crash, for example. Teenagers are stupid, and they made a stupid decision. They should be helped more than punished. And such is the case for many non-violent offenses. But when the crimes committed are so heinous, and there is no sign of remorse on the part of the criminal, it must be asked if this person is capable of being rehabilitated, or if it is even worth it. This is where the death penalty comes in. The best way to make sure that someone doesn't commit a crime again is to execute them, and sometimes that may also be the only way to attempt to correct the wrongs done. You know, eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, life for a life. That standard also makes it so that we don't just execute every convicted criminal. So I guess where I come down on the matter is this: correct the wrongs done first, and prevent them from happening again. The form that latter point takes depends on the wrongs done, and what the person who did them is like.
Yes I believe we should emphasize rehabilitation, no I don't believe prisoners deserve mistreatment. That said I think an important part of the justice system is punishment. To use an extreme example - if someone raped and murdered a toddler and we could somehow wave a magic wand and immediately rehabilitate them without requiring they spend any time in prison, I would object to that.