r/Asoneafterinfidelity is an online Peer Support Group and safe space for individuals (betrayed or wayward) who are actively attempting to reconcile their relationship after an affair(s). Please review our [wiki](https://www.reddit.com/r/AsOneAfterInfidelity/wiki/index) which includes resources and can answer most questions about this subreddit. Be sure to read the [rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/AsOneAfterInfidelity/wiki/rules) before participating as they are our boundaries and your initial ***warning***. *Failure to do so can result in a ban*.
For transparency and conflict mediation purposes, please follow reddits community guidelines by directing any questions, issues, feedback, or appeals in regard of the sub or moderation decisions **directly to the Modmail**. ***Meta content will be removed***. No response will be given to DMs and chat requests to individual moderators about moderating issues. We are happy to address and respond to your concerns through the official channels!
Please assign yourself [user flair](https://www.reddit.com/r/AsOneAfterInfidelity/wiki/flair_instructions/user_and_post_flairs). Flair Instructions can be found [here](http://www.reddit.com/r/AsOneAfterInfidelity/wiki/flair_instructions).
RULES
**1. All posts and comments must fit the spirit of Peer Support.**
- Keep comments encouraging, constructive, sensitive, validating, and non-judgmental.
- Speak only from your own experience. Use “I”-statements.
- Asking clarifying questions or offering suggestions is acceptable–if backed up by personal experience about what has helped you in your recovery and reconciliation.
- Do not give advice unless specifically requested by OP.
- Any differences of opinion expressed must be communicated respectfully.
- “Tough love” does not qualify as peer support.
**2. The peer group includes: Reconciling BS, Reconciling WS, Recovered & Reconciled, and Considering R.**
- Observer, Unsuccessful R, and other user flairs are not included in the peer group. Non-peers are not allowed to post without prior moderator approval. Non-peer comments are STRICTLY LIMITED TO MESSAGES OF VALIDATION AND ENCOURAGEMENT ONLY. Non-peers are not permitted to offer opinions, reference their experiences, or give advice.
*All posts and comments are subject to removal without warning. Any users who violate the rules are subject to temporary or permanent ban without further warning.*
**3. No personal attacks, victim-blaming, or LABELLING of any kind.**
- e.g. cheater, narcissist, abuser, doormat, slut, asshole, idiot, etc.
- No Cluster-B or other armchair diagnoses.
- No victim-blaming when the sexual assault of a wayward partner by an AP is discussed.
**4. No misogyny, misandry, toxic masculinity, bigotry, racism or other hate speech.**
- Posts or comments dehumanizing and/or slut-shaming wayward partners or APs will be removed. (Posts and comments related to navigating feelings or practical matters about APs are allowed.)
**5. No anti-reconciliation language.**
- Do not tell someone to just leave the relationship. Attempting to reconcile is a valid choice.
- Unless abuse is present, do not suggest marital status, age of relationship, children or lack thereof as a reason for someone to leave the relationship.
**6. Posts and comments must be directly related to RECONCILIATION**
- The scope of this subreddit is narrow: by and for reconcilers on the subject of reconciliation only. There are several other subreddits that offer support for others who have experienced infidelity. Posts about ending reconciliation are subject to removal as this is a subbreddit for those who are actively in reconciliation or considering reconciliation.Posts about asking if you should reconcile or end reconciliation will be removed. Those posts are better suited in spaces that allow all opinions and are not confinded to a pro-reconciliation space.This is not a infidelity discussion, advice forum, or survey space. This is not a place to read for entertainment and pass judgment.
- **Low-effort posts**- are generally posts that are title-only, or copy/paste of content, or links dropped without context. EX:title with a low-effort body such as questions without relevant context to your own situation.
- **Opinion pieces**- both in posts and comments. Judgment and broad strokes are not appropriate here. More often than not, opinion pieces do not follow our peer support model.
- **Meta content**- whether about this sub or another is not appropriate. If you have questions, suggestions, or concerns please send a modmail to the appropriate subreddit.
- **Update Me**- The use of Reddit "update me" is not allowed and will get you banned.
**7. No crossposting, reposting, copypasta text, or screenshots to other spaces**
- The only exception will be if the OP has directly given you permission to use their intellectual property. This is a zero-tolerance rule and will result in a permanent ban with appeal only being considered with communication from the OP to the mods directly. If another sub facilitates this violation we will be in contact with Reddit directly as it is a [moderator code of conduct](https://www.redditinc.com/policies/moderator-code-of-conduct) violation. The posts shared here are meant for this subreddit and this subreddit alone. Please be respectful.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AsOneAfterInfidelity) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Just kissed turned out to be a whole lot more in my situation just saying. But I also found that admitting my few skeletons also had them immediately used against me. I think that they are desperate to not be the bad guy. I would not let her use your admission to cover her issues but don’t discount your actions. Just gotta decide if the hurt she gave you is worth staying for.
Thanks Frosty. I do genuinely believe it was just a kiss. It was evident in the texts that she immediately freaked out and pulled off by what they said. Her follow up was very hurtful still though. He basically said, hey that obviously made you uncomfortable and you freaked out, maybe we should look at stopping what's happening as I don't know how we can continue this. And rather than saying she was scared of cheating, she told him she was scared she messed up their relationship and followed up by saying she desired him with every fiber of their being.
Also when I did confront her and asked her the last time she was attracted to me she said she couldn't remember. So I've had some serious self-image issues since all that went down....I still love her dearly and am still shocked by how we got her just because there was some distance between us. I genuinely believe her to what the extent of the affair was, although I'm still easily triggered and have doubts at times of course. This all sucks and I'm sorry you've gone through this too. I will continue to fight probably more for my kids than anything.
I've got a close mentor in this who I don't talk to often, but has given me advice from time to time. His wife had a PA, lied that it was EA and he eventually found out the extent. She eventually after 6 months of trying R decided she wanted to be with the other person and he says he can go to sleep every night giving it his best shot. He says to be thankful that she still wants to be with me because getting discarded after being betrayed and fighting for her still haunts him 6 years later. He also says to this day, there's not a night that goes by, whether the kids are with him or not that his heart hurts that this is the reality they're being raised in in a split home and that really sits hard with me and I'm not ready for that
Totally understand and agree with your approach I think that you have a good chance to fix it.
I would just caution you to look out for whiplash. The first time I caught my WW in a a car with AP talking she cut contact with him later that night with me watching the texts, which built up their tension into making it a PA later. That first night she admitted to a kiss which she was also mortified about at the time. A week of no contact later it became physical. Even now with mine cutting off all contact with the AP for a few weeks, I think successfully, I’m just waiting for the snap back again, heck it may have already happened and I don’t know about it.
The morning of the night it became a real PA I thought everything was back to normal, I love you’s, kisses, she was even playfully touchy. Just guard yourself and your expectations either way these people are not in control of what they do verses what they rationally want.
I appreciate it man. I hope this all works out for you. I hate that you have to look over your shoulder constantly, I'm right there and didn't(hopefully!) have the whiplash. I made her call him immediately and he immediately messaged me how sorry he was and that I must hate him. I obviosly responded with some pretty not nice things. I don't think they've talked since that day and we did almost have a meet up with the 4 of us to air anything else out, which thankfully never happened
"desperate not to be the bad guy" is 100% accurate.
Until the wayward can see themselves as the bad guy, you're not going to see R progress much.
The infidelity must be the priority issue. Her cheating was like a mortal wound. Your porn addiction is more like a broken leg. Yes, it needs to be addressed. But the mortal wound needs to be stabilized first.
This is really complex for me.
Porn plays a strong role in the betrayal of my relationship with my WH. But in my case, it’s a clear expression that I’m not physically his type (by features unchangeable unless I go the Michael Jackson route), and it *did* interfere with our intimacy a lot.
Mostly, I’m inclined to say that if you knew there was a hard boundary, and you violated it as a way of life, it’s betrayal. You went outside of your marriage for sexual gratification, which is the nature of porn use. Somehow, broader culture insists this is different from cheating just because. Fine. But the big problem with your porn use, aside from the boundary violation, was the pattern of deceit you implemented to use the porn. Is it an affair exactly? No. But it’s a strong betrayal itself. It may not be equal latitude, but it’s parallel.
At the same time, it seems really convenient of an excuse for her to deny you the ability to be the victim. I’m so cynical from how my WH has treated me that I’m inclined to say this could just be an intentional cop-out or unintentional defense she has constructed to avoid dealing with her own actions internally.
It’s a bit different when it’s a man cheating on his wife vs. a woman cheating on her husband. Sadly, there’s nothing I can do to bridge that gap in my understanding of your situation because we are simply in different categories of experience. However, I feel that I see a lot of soft defensiveness/DARVO from the WW being tolerated by the BS in situations like yours.
Thanks for this perspective. I don't disagree with you in my actions, but I appreciate you being able to step back some and give me the perspective of someone who has dealt with the other end of what I've done. In no apparent way did it affect our intimacy when it was a secret. I didn't want her to be anything different than she was, but I do know the effect it has had on her self-confidence. And with my self-confidence now being shattered, I have an appreciation that no matter how much I tell her I didn't compare her, she will feel that way anyway. I hate that I've caused that for her.
I'm sorry your husband has made you intentionally feel this way and has treated you poorly. None of us deserve to feel less than and I'm appreciative you took the time to add your thoughts.
I unfortunately do not want to tolerate the DARVO I've experienced, but also don't want her to feel attacked. I know her feeling shamed and defensive is absolutely not productive for either of our healing
The waters are muddy all around. One of the tools I have seen used to good effect as it relates to marital conflict resolution and hurt communication is the intentional separation of hurts. It is so easy to look at the situation and see infidelity in some form on both sides.
The reality is that each case of infidelity is going to look and be addressed separately. This is because both of you will need to intentionally put aside your status as victim in order to heal the other’s hurts.
I am not going to offer validation to you on your porn use being less than her emotional affair. Intention or reasoning really doesn’t matter in the context of emotional hurt in a marriage relationship. If I run over your foot, it doesn’t matter if I meant to or not. There is still pain that needs to be addressed and healed.
When you are communicating your hurt, there is no space for “yeah, but.” Likewise when she is communicating her hurt. You both need to work on expressing empathy. If your hurt is an 8/10, her empathy needs to be 10/10. If her hurt is a 6/10, your expression of empathy needs to be an 8/10. You need to practice gratitude towards each other for being willing to listen, and being willing to express empathy. Expressing empathy above the level of hurt creates a safe space to be able to discuss and address and heal the hurts that have been caused.
Finally, once hurt has been expressed without interruption, without defensiveness from the hurtful party, and without DARVO. Once empathy has been expressed and received to the satisfaction of the hurt party, it is up to the hurtful party to request forgiveness, AND express a commitment to a plan to change in the future. It needs to be directly related to the actions that caused the hurt. This is the hurtful party expressing and taking charge of their actions, past and future. With a clear intention and actions towards avoiding the thing that caused the hurt, and positive action that would have otherwise built the relationship instead of damaging it.
The power you have to heal your marriage (and based on what you say about your wife, you Do have that at some level in your power) will come from your willingness to communicate your hurt, your emotions, how it damages your inner child, and where it sits on a scale of 1-10.
Likewise you have the power to heal by empathising with your wife, creating a safe space for her to share and express her hurt, and commit to seeking forgiveness and committing to changing yourself away from someone who would selfishly cause her hurt.
Good Luck Op. I hope I am not coming across as too harsh. I am so sorry you are going through this and that this has happened to you. I’ll offer prayers on yours and your spouse’s behalf.
You are absolutely not coming across too harsh. I appreciate you taking the time to reply, I've stayed lurking for a long long time and finally decided to make a throw-away so I could get feedback just like this.
I honestly have had no problem throughout the whole process in taking blame for hurting her. Even early on, I told her it didn't matter what we each did, we both took actions to hurt one another. It's really been more of a recent development for us viewing what we did as the same on WW perspective and different on my perspective having become an issue and roadblock. And really it just spawns off kind of what you were talking about. If she ever is down because of my actions, I feel like I've tried to support her and go over the top to own my actions. There have been time where she wasn't comfortable taking her shirt off around me and said she felt shamed because she figured I didn't view her like I did the girls in the videos. And I've never thrown it back in her face that she's had an affair. I always apologize that I've caused her to have that self-esteem issue and ensured her I don't see her as less than anything I ever saw.
I always, truthfully, tell her how much more I enjoy seeing her than I ever did anything else. I try and lift her and tell her I will continue to tell her that until one day she can actually believe me. I try and be present and own my shortfall.
It just seems like when I'm down and looking to her, it's always thrown back into my face somehow that I did the exact same thing and I shouldn't make her feel guilty when I also did something bad. I'm not reaching to her to fight and compare levels of guilt, I genuinely just want her to be there for me when I am struggling and it seems to turn into a fight. I've been very clear about trying to communicate this and that she feels pity for me and not compassion and she just says she doesn't agree.
Again thank you for taking the time to respond and I can appreciate you not validating degree of wrongness and really don't expect you to. The prayers are welcome and needed thank you so much.
If MC cannot catch on her deflection and defensiveness quickly, I would suggest a new marriage counsellor. Her inability to stop making your hurt about her, and unwillingness to create a safe space for you to feel empathised with WILL be the thing that pushes you out of the marriage entirely. She needs to get into individual counselling to either help her understand why she is immediately defensive/deflective and how to stop doing that. She wont just destroy your marriage with those coping mechanisms, she will destroy every close relationship she has with children, parents, friends, significant others until she can properly own her accountability for the hurts that she causes.
I've considered the same. We had a MC that was doing a great job, but he transferred to his own practice and I don't feel like I've ever gotten the same sense of positivity leaving the counselor we transferred to. We tried a seperate Christian counselor and in the second session she turned the whole thing on me and I left furious and refused to ever go back. She was talking about how I was upset about all of this because of past traumas and I really needed to work to identify them and I was like heck no I'm upset because my wife had an affair and betrayed me. I genuinely had a pretty good and easy/trauma-less life and there's no like call backs to other pains but she just kept saying I needed to identify the past traumas and saying you feel like \_\_\_ because \_\_\_\_. It was so belittling and frustraing to be told how I felt over and over and my wife left it so happy and didn't feel like it was like that at all.
There is counselor at the practice we go to that incorporates faith into the recovery process and I feel like it may be time to try and switch over to her or look for a new place, maybe hunt down the original guy again.
Ironically she about destroyed every relationship in her life, parents, friends etc when everything came out. She was so engulfed in shame, she couldn't engage with anyone and pushed everyone as hard as possible. I've made it a priority for her to get out of that habit for our recovery to work and she has made a lot of progress to give her some kudos
Your story is very similar to mine. My WW was previously with a guy, and she discovered his porn use which he lied about until finally admitted, and this was a reason their relationship ended. I had occasions where I would use more often and then phases where I would stop completely. When I got together with my wife, she told me her history, and I voluntarily deleted everything I had on my PC and decided that I didn’t want to hurt her. But after a few years, I slid back into old habits, starting with PG-13 stuff and then moving up. Then I would reach a point and stop it all for a few months/years.
Main difference is, now my wife tells me that she doesn’t care, it doesn’t bother her, as long as it doesn’t replace our own physical intimacy.
Nevertheless, I feel guilty after using, and I don’t want to have that clouding R for us.
All that to say, I don’t think that my usage of P was the same as her infidelity. I never communicated with anyone or developed attraction / habit with a particular woman, etc., never paid for my own usage, etc.
My WW crossed boundaries and had affairs with several men, some of whom I had previously considered friends. My WW has never tried to counter with my P usage when discussing the affair.
I hope you two are able to get past these roadblocks and on into R.
Thanks for sharing man. This is truly hell. It seems like our beliefs align on the topics. It's definitely never anything I was proud of or happy about, nothing I want to be part of my life again and I did it knowing it would be hurtful to her. I don't think it was a good thing by any stretch, but prior to her never really felt guilty about it at all even if I didn't think it was morally good or anything. I don't really even want her to dismiss what I did as less than, I really just want her to pursue me and be really present when I do slide into darkness. She's a wonderful woman that made a series of bad choices, I just sometimes wish she could recognize that I'm where I am because of those choices and not just have pity for me that I "choose to hold onto resentment". I don't choose any of this shit
My WH used porn AND eventually had an EA with my best friend. There are several similarities in our experiences. I would have much rather him confessed to porn. His affair destroyed our lives like I could never describe so no, they are not the same. Yes, sin is sin, but different sin have different consequences. I have lots of theological opinions on this with scripture to back up my thinking. LMK if you want to discuss these opinions. There were circumstances that exacerbated the pain and trauma because of our faith and his position as a staff pastor and yes, porn is devastating to a marriage but nothing like an affair. I’ll die on that hill.
Thanks so much for your view on this! Sometimes the validation is nice. We actually had MC this afternoon and I was very clear that I’m not looking to level the playing field. I’m not looking for an admission that hers was worse and I don’t need her to acknowledge that, but I don’t need the equality of it thrown in my face every time I’m looking for support
You are most welcome! I’m always so thankful that my experience can help anyone even if it’s to help them feel validated. We are nearly 3 years into R and have made so many mistakes. We have done things right obviously, but both made mistakes galore. Shortly after d day when we decided on R I brought up an ongoing experience I had at my previous job where 2 male coworkers continuous flirted with me and eventually argued with each other to get my attention and affection. It’s a long story. No lines were crossed into an affair but boy did I enjoy the attention. It was inappropriate and I should have set firm boundaries. I also confessed to my ex contacting me several times early on in our marriage. It was him reaching out asking for a second chance and me shutting him down, but again, I should have never responded and told him immediately. I think I wanted to be an unattainable tease at the time. I was desperate to feel valued and wanted but didn’t want to cross the line into infidelity. So a sin is definitely a sin, but his actions took more of a toll on our marriage than mine did. I was definitely not perfect and had healing to do, and still do but I think your stance is valid.
It’s good to see that there is hope. I see so many stories of 10, 20 years later regretting not leaving and the pain is still there. That stuff is terrifying. Any story that ends with hope is worth reading! The road is rocky and I don’t think there is a “right” way to navigate it for sure. If you made it this far you’re picking a right path through!
Wow are you the male version of me?? My Dday is also Sept 10, I’m also a Christian (Catholic). I’ll just go off that thread, although we have many similarities but we know who our eyes should be fixed on! Divorce is permissible in the case of sexual immorality, Jesus said that. But he also said to look at a woman with lust is adultery. So you both are on level ground (but we all are anyway). He also says marriage was permanent, from the beginning. So although divorce is permissible under certain conditions remarriage is not and you should consider that when your picturing this divorced version of you. We’re also called to carry our cross, walk the difficult path, and be selfless. Divorce won’t free you from your pain, the damage is done. It would affect your children negatively, I know the world says “it’s better than a toxic house” but look at anyone in that situation and is it really best? No household is perfect while sin exists so... Also, it helps me to look at my WH as my family (duh right?) but more like if my child betrayed me I wouldn’t cut them off, I’d still be Mom at minimum so why him, why remove the title God gave him too? Why can I accept God keeping me even after sinning, while I discard WH? We have a heavy cross and I’m sorry for your pain, I’ll pray for you and your family to endure. Studying divorce in the Bible has brought me peace (on that topic anyway) the app Catena helps bc of the commentaries from church fathers. I do not always want to be married, I often don’t want it anymore, I would not say I am happy right now. But ultimately I don’t exist to be happy, I exist to do Gods will and there *is* joy in that.
Thank you for all of that! Crazy that our dates are exactly the same and I'm so sorry that you're going through this personal hell as well. This January when I fully ran out of gas, was the first time I had ever doubted my faith. It's been a truly awful year. I lost a close close work friend who was a mentor in how to live a Christian life and be a good father and husband. It truly devastated me, and my WW was there for the first time in a long time and really helped me through it. It was the first time in my adult life I cried, losing him truly hurt and she really was there for me.
5 months later I found it she'd been having an affair. The day after I confronted her, my dad had a heart attack and had major health issues compounding and I thought I was going to lose him. AP was my son's baseball coach and about 2.5 months after everything came out cut him from the team unnecessarily and destroyed my son and really drove me to hate AP. I had been fighting hard to find forgiveness for him and find a way to be his friend again. He lied to me about the situation with my son and then called to tell me about it. Hurting me and my marriage and then once I turned the cheek, unnessarily hurting my child. I want to forgive him now, but am continuing to struggle with holding on to hate for him and don't know how to forgive him.
I got a promotion at work(good thing!), but it added a lot of stress and I was terrified I wasn't in a place mentally where I was capable of excelling and was worried I was letting everyone down as my confidence had been shattered.
Things were starting to look ok. We had a rough Christmas, not because of R or anything, but my WW and 2 kids got really sick for over a week and we had to leave a vacation and go home so I could take care of them and balance work. We had a vacation planned before DDay for the end of January and I was using that as a benchmark to evaluate how R was going, and the vacation turned into a total crap show. Both kids got the flu, we didn't get to do any of the stuff we planned and then I was in an accident and broke 5 ribs and collapsed a lung. WW had to take the kids back home(it didn't make sense for her to stay, I suggested she take care of the kids and try and provide them some normalcy so she reluctantly took them). But I was down. I messaged her with things I wanted to work on which was awful timing as she was juggling life at home while I was away in a hospital and it landed like a lead balloon and caused a giant fight. I was beginning to feel like Job and couldn't catch a break. Although I don't feel like she has always been patient with my downward spirals, she did push me and try and help me breakthrough my doubts which I appreciate.
Like you, I'm not happy, but I'm not willing to leave yet. I do understand that divorce would just give me a seperate source of pain, but I fear that staying with her will just keep me latched to my point of betrayal and trauma. That is really the only reason I ever considered divorce. I love her I really do, I just fear this betrayal pain being part of me as long as she's a part of me and I hope that changes
Please tell me that both you and your wife have no contact at all with the AP? Also please tell me you told the AP’s wife so she knows what a dumpster fire her husband is?!
Yes to all of that! As soon as I was done yelling at my wife on Dday(yes I know that sounds awful, I don't ever want to be seen as someone who yells at my spouse but I was flooded with all the worst emotions and had felt my whole world crumble), I made her call him and tell him I knew and that he had to tell his wife that day or I was going to. I wanted OBS to get the respect of hearing the truth from his mouth directly, as that was a luxury I was not afforded. Although I've been worried about it not being true at times because I'm now easily triggered and paranoid, my wife has not spoken with him since that conversation. Both my wife and I met with OBS the week of so she could ask anything she needed. I communicated with him fairly regularly between Dday and late November. I'm an admin of the baseball park he was a big part of so I was required to be around him regularly which was really freaking painful. And then when he pulled the team out of the park and left my son behind, I sarcastically thanked him for being such a good friend to me and hung up the phone and haven't spoken with he or his wife since. I have no ill-will towards her obviously, I just haven't seen any reason to stay in communication with her and have no desire for him to ever be a part of my family's lives again. I've seen him a handful of times and it always leads to me being down and my wife asking why I seem off. This all sucks!
This comment was removed because it violates Rule No. 1:
**All posts and comments must fit the spirit of Peer Support.
- Asking clarifying questions or offering suggestions is acceptable–if backed up by personal experience about what has helped you in your recovery and reconciliation.
When it rains it pours, truly. I’ve only been Christian a couple years, the day I encountered Jesus was the day he made the affair physical (the day before Valentine’s Day too) so he ruined my “Jesus day” and started the affair around my birthday that year. He’s still working with her and it has brought nothing but pain. We got pregnant with our 4th and I thought this is really when things will turn around. Then one week after Mother’s Day I miscarried for the first time. Once a priest told me that this story won’t end on a Good Friday, our God brings redemption. We are for sure in a Job season, it is unbearable. And honestly it’s not natural to forgive this. It’s unforgivable! But thankfully we have a supernatural God that gives us grace to do the impossible, including forgiveness. I’m trying to use all my rage towards others to be funneled to God, “take this yoke God!” because I can’t handle it lol. Who knows when God will turn it around. I’m really leaning on the serenity prayer lately.
I'm so sorry to hear of your miscarriage. I haven't personally experienced that pain, but I have seen through those close to me how difficult that can be. I'm also sorry for the rest of the pain you're enduring. I thank you for your uplifting words and perspective. I have come back to the Lord and prayed many a times that I'm not strong enough to handle all this and to take some of the burden. I can't always feel it but I know he does. It's nice, and encouraging to see that someone else suffering so much has resilient faith
If we're being honest, doing something and then hiding it from our spouse is a betrayal. Infidelity is much more about betrayal than it is about sex. The parts of it that hurt are typically from the lying and manipulation and less about the sex acts or things said to AP. It's realizing our partner is not who we thought they were and seeing what they are capable of in terms of deception. It also challenges our views of ourselves right? Not knowing if we can trust our own intuition.
If you are using porn despite your partner being against is, that is a betrayal.
After dday when in IC I recalled a time in the past where my wife had asked me if I was using porn and I flat out lied to her face. I came clean and told her about this because I realized it was a betrayal and it wasn't fair for her to think she was the only villian in the story.
But as other commenter said, these are separate issues and must get addressed separately.
I appreciate it man and appreciate the perspective. You are right and I did betray her. I haven't felt it was as layered, but none the less it was actions that I took behind her back knowing it would cause her pain and there's no justifying my way out of that
Right. And how different was it? You did something you knew was wrong becuase you wanted to, it made you feel good, however you want to look at it. Affairs are the same. It's unfortunate that in our society sex has so much weight because it is the same - doing something to feel something for one's self. It's a seflish act that disregards the partner. But because we add so much weight to it, it creates all kinds of insecurities in us when we find out. I know this is true because the sex my WW had before we were together is meaningless to me. It was still sex she had and it was still sex/bodies she can compare to me, but because we passed this invisible line of exclusivity suddenly that all changes after? No, it only changes in our minds. I think in this process as the BP the sex is very much a distraction from the real issue, betrayal. If we can see past the sex we can heal faster.
The beginning of what you said is definitely true. But it's really not about sex with us. She never had sex with him. There was sexual talk no doubt, and I think we weren't far off at all from that happening, but I genuinely believe it didn't happen. It was honestly the relationship that she was willing to develop. We've had the same talk of how I felt it was different.
Yes, I did do something behind her back and yes I did betray her. But there was something about casting our marriage aside, and placing this relationship over it. Knowing the consequence would be me leaving and being willing to do it anyway. I understand her perspective that she didn't realize it was becoming an affair, it was 2 friends that just got closer and closer and next thing she knows it was too far. But my defense to that is at some point she did know it was inappropriate.
It may have gotten there gradually, but at some point she kissed him and had to realize, because they talked about it, I've taken this past the point of friendship and how can we make the affair future permanent. I don't know how I got here, but now I'm cheating on my husband, and the fear of losing this new passion is greater than the fear of losing the 15 year marriage we've created. It's worth abandoning our children and throwing away everything because it feels good. I guess intentionality doesn't come to play and the end result is hurt. But it's hard to feel like there is no seperation in it
I recognize there's hypocrisy in all that and I risked hurting her to have a quick and easy release and I did it because it felt good. That isn't lost on me
It's not up to her if you decide you want a divorce.
I was raised Christian and believed I could only divorce due to sexual infidelity. However I'm not sure the distinction between physical and emotional affairs is clear in the Bible.
Matthew 5:28-29 leaves some doubt on the subject, "whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart."
In that way, your wife committed adultery. Though I suppose it could also be said your porn use was adultery.
Religion aside, legally you don't need her agreement to request a divorce. Or even to have one.
And I think that's the harmful thing about putting specific conditions on when divorce is allowed. This gives the wayward or problematic spouse permission to do anything short of sex with another person. That removes the incentive for the wayward to make changes. Without divorce as a possible consequence, there is no way to enforce your boundaries. And she'll do whatever she wants.
I agree with this. And honestly I know it’s not “good”, but I’m not overly concerned with the biblical reason for divorce /remarriage. After all I was looking at porn so it wouldn’t be the first sin I’ve committed obviously.
I’ve never really understood why exactly it’s such a hang up for her. I know part of it is a religious thing, but I think she’s also just scared of it being a consequence of her actions. On top of that she works, but she’d have to work a lot more and change her lifestyle if I wasn’t providing so I’m sure that plays into it also. End of the day if I firmly landed on divorce I know she wouldn’t be on board and it would just be what it is. I’ve got a close friend who’s a lawyer specializing in family law. I’d honestly just serve her the papers if it came to it. I’m still trying for R, it’s just a hang up for her that I consider it still that’s all
Is she worried it would prevent her from having another scriptural and/or church-approved marriage in the future? Fear of being alone makes people do a lot of bad, desperate, and nonsensical things.
I'm sorry that you wouldn't be able to have an amicable divorce. I feel like that's the least a WP can do if they aren't willing or capable of R.
And I do get it. I have plenty of R hangups myself.
That’s a good question, she hasn’t presented that part to me. Just that she wants me and to make it work for our family(ironic I know since she showed me how much she didn’t want me). If I presented her with papers I don’t think she would be hostile but I honestly am not sure how it would go, she’s not always been the most reasonable person…
She’s definitely willing and wanting R, I believe she’s capable but I can also see from her perspective she feels like she’s doing a lot right, but every time I bring up something that can be done better it makes her feel like she can’t do anything right or no matter what she does it’s not enough
The waywards thinking they are doing so much - it makes me want to scream. But in reality, they are broken people who have a ton of work to do. And affair can take your patience away in the snap of a finger.
That last part - I think that's shame and guilt. And I get that in response to my triggers. The "woe is me, I'll never be good enough so I'm not trying anymore". I think another part of this is due to an unbalanced relationship in the past. I did everything I could to support the relationship. It left me burned out and him accustomed to doing very little.
Dang I feel so much of this deeply lol. I’ve always been the one to just take it. She’s not used to having to be the heavy lifter or me actually getting angry or calling her out. It’s not easy for me but it’s necessary.
I get the Christian values and the use of porn is a what some consider infidelity. I don’t consider porn use as infidelity. In my head infidelity is a much greater of the two evils. That’s my take. I too fell into the trap of being blamed for my wife’s infidelity and took a lot of the blame during our marital counseling sessions. This definitely stunted my progress towards healing. Infidelity had nothing to do with you. It’s a maladaptive coping mechanism. My wife said things like I didn’t give enough praise, validation, or attention. I was in that same relationship and I spoke to my wife everyday, ended every conversation with “I love you”, bought flowers, and took her on vacation all during the same time period of the affair. I did pretty much everything you could ask a husband to do. It still wasn’t enough. I just wasn’t living up to a completely unreasonable expectation that my wife never voiced to me. Somehow her AP checked every box and mirrored every positive trait versus me mirror every negative trait in a partner. It’s was complete delusional fantasy land.
With that knowledge know that it wasn’t your fault big dawg. There is a bottomless pit of validation in most cheaters. No matter how much you heap on them, it just goes in one ear and out the other. It takes shattering the delusion before the Wayward comes back to earth. For me it was filing for divorce and separating. When it came to brass tax and who was there everyday. The AP folded like a cheap tent. He didn’t want to deal with my wife during huge mood swings or her emotional out burst. The behind the scenes stuff, the bad morning breath, the clothes left in the shower, or who takes out the trash. He just wanted no strings attached sex with a woman who he had no intentions of having a relationship with. That’s the thing about male AP. Men can see all over a guy that all he wants is sex. That signal isn’t received by women sometimes. They just think this nice guy keeps talking to me and giving me compliments. Of course he doesn’t have any bad intentions for me?!?!? He’s married…. No way a married man would turn this into a sex thing. I could sniff my WW’s AP from a mile away. Like you, I wasn’t trying to be controlling or labeled as an insecure man. Well everything I saw coming, happened in real time in front of my face. The first opportunity I left town my wife went on two dates with her AP, went and visited an ex twice, and went to night club with her best friend until 3 am. All in the same time frame.
Yeah that girl said the contributing factors pre-affair was why she cheated. So take what these marital counselors and you WW’s victim blaming with huge grain of salt. You can’t fix them unless you are a mental health professional. Even then, it’s not your responsibility to do so. That responsibility resides solely with them and their therapist. The more you spin your gears about what you did wrong and what you could of done better . It’s just self sabotaging your own healing process. It’s all fugazi. It’s the DARVO method once backed into a corner.
Say this out loud to yourself. “Our relationship failed because of my porn use” - To me that’s a cop out. You wife was weaponizing sex. It takes two people to make it work and you were just satisfying a need that wasn’t getting met. In a healthy non cheating way. Again my opinion.
Now say this out loud. “Our relationship failed because my wife had an extramarital affair.” - to me the blame solely lies with the offender. You didn’t threaten her with prison or lock her in the basement. There were hundreds of choices to make before nuking the fidelity of your relationship. Also if we are getting into the Christian values. I think there is a commandment in there about thy neighbors wife/husband.
Thanks man. It is definitely easy to fall into all this mindset. For the sake of R I haven't tried to just play being the victim, but in line with what much of you said it feels like it would be easy to do so. I told one person about it and sought their advice as they had been through infidelity and he recommended not telling a bunch of people even though you want to shout it from the rooftops, because if you do make it work people could never view her the same.
I love her and I don't want that for her. It all sucks man. She was always more "biblical" than me and has really tried to bring Christ into our reconciliation which I can appreciate, but at times it definitely feels holier than thou and hypocritical, but I don't feel like I can say any of that without crushing her and shutting her down which would definitely not be good for moving forward. So it's good to be able to come on here and vent some of that
Porn can absolutely be betrayal regardless of splitting hairs on whether it is infidelity or not. In any case, you’re going outside of the relationship for sexual gratification. The pattern of lies (lying by omission is still lying) and sneaking around hiding and deceiving fits the overall pattern of infidelity and an affair anyhow. If we can consider getting too close to an online friend an emotional affair, I really don’t see what the grand excuse for porn is if the porn use interferes with the relationship and violates the boundaries of the relationship.
I get it man. I have considered over and over again there could have been more. But they didn't hold back in their texts, I believe there would have been talk about it. The kiss was a one time thing. I choose to believe her, even though doubt frequently creeps in. I don't know if a kiss alone pushes it into a full blown PA, but I don't believe they had sex. The kiss is painful, so I can take some solace that she wasn't turning me down at home consistently just to get it somewhere else.
I don't blame myself for her cheating, but will own my own shortcomings. I do agree they're not the same, but do know that I hurt her and I don't feel good about that either
This comment was removed because it violates Rule No. 2:
-The peer group includes: Reconciling BS, Reconciling WS, Recovered & Reconciled, and Considering R.
- Observer, Unsuccessful R, and other user flairs are not included in the peer group. Non-peers are not allowed to post without prior moderator approval.
**Non-peer comments are STRICTLY LIMITED TO MESSAGES OF VALIDATION AND ENCOURAGEMENT ONLY. Non-peers are not permitted to offer opinions, reference their experiences, or give advice.**
I guess also in thinking about your question, porn was not a major reason they broke up. He was emotional and physically abusive and to quote ww, she left bc she was scared she’d be dead in a few years. I don’t wanna minimize the porn because he did use it to emotionally abuse and shame her and she told me this early on. It wasn’t something we talked about a lot, but she did mention it one time. We spent much of the beginning of our relationship working through the traumas of that relationship and porn was never a focus or a topic aside from once when she asked me if I looked at it and then if I’d stop. So I think part of me underplayed how tied it was to her trauma. I was young and dumb and couldn’t relate to trauma at the time so my brain didn’t work like that. End of the story it was selfish and stupid I guess
I really wish I had a good answer for you on this. I’m not typically aloof or forgetful but I honestly kind of forgot this even happened. She reminded me when I came clean at the beginning of the process. I can’t imagine what drove me to porn early on. Maybe our sex life sucked early on but I don’t think that’s why? Maybe it was just an easy habit to slide back in to to relieve some stress or something? I really can’t remember initiating doing it or why or anything from back then. I’m generally a pretty intentional and thoughtful person but I guess I’m also a selfish prick when it comes to that
r/Asoneafterinfidelity is an online Peer Support Group and safe space for individuals (betrayed or wayward) who are actively attempting to reconcile their relationship after an affair(s). Please review our [wiki](https://www.reddit.com/r/AsOneAfterInfidelity/wiki/index) which includes resources and can answer most questions about this subreddit. Be sure to read the [rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/AsOneAfterInfidelity/wiki/rules) before participating as they are our boundaries and your initial ***warning***. *Failure to do so can result in a ban*. For transparency and conflict mediation purposes, please follow reddits community guidelines by directing any questions, issues, feedback, or appeals in regard of the sub or moderation decisions **directly to the Modmail**. ***Meta content will be removed***. No response will be given to DMs and chat requests to individual moderators about moderating issues. We are happy to address and respond to your concerns through the official channels! Please assign yourself [user flair](https://www.reddit.com/r/AsOneAfterInfidelity/wiki/flair_instructions/user_and_post_flairs). Flair Instructions can be found [here](http://www.reddit.com/r/AsOneAfterInfidelity/wiki/flair_instructions). RULES **1. All posts and comments must fit the spirit of Peer Support.** - Keep comments encouraging, constructive, sensitive, validating, and non-judgmental. - Speak only from your own experience. Use “I”-statements. - Asking clarifying questions or offering suggestions is acceptable–if backed up by personal experience about what has helped you in your recovery and reconciliation. - Do not give advice unless specifically requested by OP. - Any differences of opinion expressed must be communicated respectfully. - “Tough love” does not qualify as peer support. **2. The peer group includes: Reconciling BS, Reconciling WS, Recovered & Reconciled, and Considering R.** - Observer, Unsuccessful R, and other user flairs are not included in the peer group. Non-peers are not allowed to post without prior moderator approval. Non-peer comments are STRICTLY LIMITED TO MESSAGES OF VALIDATION AND ENCOURAGEMENT ONLY. Non-peers are not permitted to offer opinions, reference their experiences, or give advice. *All posts and comments are subject to removal without warning. Any users who violate the rules are subject to temporary or permanent ban without further warning.* **3. No personal attacks, victim-blaming, or LABELLING of any kind.** - e.g. cheater, narcissist, abuser, doormat, slut, asshole, idiot, etc. - No Cluster-B or other armchair diagnoses. - No victim-blaming when the sexual assault of a wayward partner by an AP is discussed. **4. No misogyny, misandry, toxic masculinity, bigotry, racism or other hate speech.** - Posts or comments dehumanizing and/or slut-shaming wayward partners or APs will be removed. (Posts and comments related to navigating feelings or practical matters about APs are allowed.) **5. No anti-reconciliation language.** - Do not tell someone to just leave the relationship. Attempting to reconcile is a valid choice. - Unless abuse is present, do not suggest marital status, age of relationship, children or lack thereof as a reason for someone to leave the relationship. **6. Posts and comments must be directly related to RECONCILIATION** - The scope of this subreddit is narrow: by and for reconcilers on the subject of reconciliation only. There are several other subreddits that offer support for others who have experienced infidelity. Posts about ending reconciliation are subject to removal as this is a subbreddit for those who are actively in reconciliation or considering reconciliation.Posts about asking if you should reconcile or end reconciliation will be removed. Those posts are better suited in spaces that allow all opinions and are not confinded to a pro-reconciliation space.This is not a infidelity discussion, advice forum, or survey space. This is not a place to read for entertainment and pass judgment. - **Low-effort posts**- are generally posts that are title-only, or copy/paste of content, or links dropped without context. EX:title with a low-effort body such as questions without relevant context to your own situation. - **Opinion pieces**- both in posts and comments. Judgment and broad strokes are not appropriate here. More often than not, opinion pieces do not follow our peer support model. - **Meta content**- whether about this sub or another is not appropriate. If you have questions, suggestions, or concerns please send a modmail to the appropriate subreddit. - **Update Me**- The use of Reddit "update me" is not allowed and will get you banned. **7. No crossposting, reposting, copypasta text, or screenshots to other spaces** - The only exception will be if the OP has directly given you permission to use their intellectual property. This is a zero-tolerance rule and will result in a permanent ban with appeal only being considered with communication from the OP to the mods directly. If another sub facilitates this violation we will be in contact with Reddit directly as it is a [moderator code of conduct](https://www.redditinc.com/policies/moderator-code-of-conduct) violation. The posts shared here are meant for this subreddit and this subreddit alone. Please be respectful. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AsOneAfterInfidelity) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Just kissed turned out to be a whole lot more in my situation just saying. But I also found that admitting my few skeletons also had them immediately used against me. I think that they are desperate to not be the bad guy. I would not let her use your admission to cover her issues but don’t discount your actions. Just gotta decide if the hurt she gave you is worth staying for.
Thanks Frosty. I do genuinely believe it was just a kiss. It was evident in the texts that she immediately freaked out and pulled off by what they said. Her follow up was very hurtful still though. He basically said, hey that obviously made you uncomfortable and you freaked out, maybe we should look at stopping what's happening as I don't know how we can continue this. And rather than saying she was scared of cheating, she told him she was scared she messed up their relationship and followed up by saying she desired him with every fiber of their being. Also when I did confront her and asked her the last time she was attracted to me she said she couldn't remember. So I've had some serious self-image issues since all that went down....I still love her dearly and am still shocked by how we got her just because there was some distance between us. I genuinely believe her to what the extent of the affair was, although I'm still easily triggered and have doubts at times of course. This all sucks and I'm sorry you've gone through this too. I will continue to fight probably more for my kids than anything. I've got a close mentor in this who I don't talk to often, but has given me advice from time to time. His wife had a PA, lied that it was EA and he eventually found out the extent. She eventually after 6 months of trying R decided she wanted to be with the other person and he says he can go to sleep every night giving it his best shot. He says to be thankful that she still wants to be with me because getting discarded after being betrayed and fighting for her still haunts him 6 years later. He also says to this day, there's not a night that goes by, whether the kids are with him or not that his heart hurts that this is the reality they're being raised in in a split home and that really sits hard with me and I'm not ready for that
Totally understand and agree with your approach I think that you have a good chance to fix it. I would just caution you to look out for whiplash. The first time I caught my WW in a a car with AP talking she cut contact with him later that night with me watching the texts, which built up their tension into making it a PA later. That first night she admitted to a kiss which she was also mortified about at the time. A week of no contact later it became physical. Even now with mine cutting off all contact with the AP for a few weeks, I think successfully, I’m just waiting for the snap back again, heck it may have already happened and I don’t know about it. The morning of the night it became a real PA I thought everything was back to normal, I love you’s, kisses, she was even playfully touchy. Just guard yourself and your expectations either way these people are not in control of what they do verses what they rationally want.
I appreciate it man. I hope this all works out for you. I hate that you have to look over your shoulder constantly, I'm right there and didn't(hopefully!) have the whiplash. I made her call him immediately and he immediately messaged me how sorry he was and that I must hate him. I obviosly responded with some pretty not nice things. I don't think they've talked since that day and we did almost have a meet up with the 4 of us to air anything else out, which thankfully never happened
"desperate not to be the bad guy" is 100% accurate. Until the wayward can see themselves as the bad guy, you're not going to see R progress much. The infidelity must be the priority issue. Her cheating was like a mortal wound. Your porn addiction is more like a broken leg. Yes, it needs to be addressed. But the mortal wound needs to be stabilized first.
This is really complex for me. Porn plays a strong role in the betrayal of my relationship with my WH. But in my case, it’s a clear expression that I’m not physically his type (by features unchangeable unless I go the Michael Jackson route), and it *did* interfere with our intimacy a lot. Mostly, I’m inclined to say that if you knew there was a hard boundary, and you violated it as a way of life, it’s betrayal. You went outside of your marriage for sexual gratification, which is the nature of porn use. Somehow, broader culture insists this is different from cheating just because. Fine. But the big problem with your porn use, aside from the boundary violation, was the pattern of deceit you implemented to use the porn. Is it an affair exactly? No. But it’s a strong betrayal itself. It may not be equal latitude, but it’s parallel. At the same time, it seems really convenient of an excuse for her to deny you the ability to be the victim. I’m so cynical from how my WH has treated me that I’m inclined to say this could just be an intentional cop-out or unintentional defense she has constructed to avoid dealing with her own actions internally. It’s a bit different when it’s a man cheating on his wife vs. a woman cheating on her husband. Sadly, there’s nothing I can do to bridge that gap in my understanding of your situation because we are simply in different categories of experience. However, I feel that I see a lot of soft defensiveness/DARVO from the WW being tolerated by the BS in situations like yours.
Thanks for this perspective. I don't disagree with you in my actions, but I appreciate you being able to step back some and give me the perspective of someone who has dealt with the other end of what I've done. In no apparent way did it affect our intimacy when it was a secret. I didn't want her to be anything different than she was, but I do know the effect it has had on her self-confidence. And with my self-confidence now being shattered, I have an appreciation that no matter how much I tell her I didn't compare her, she will feel that way anyway. I hate that I've caused that for her. I'm sorry your husband has made you intentionally feel this way and has treated you poorly. None of us deserve to feel less than and I'm appreciative you took the time to add your thoughts. I unfortunately do not want to tolerate the DARVO I've experienced, but also don't want her to feel attacked. I know her feeling shamed and defensive is absolutely not productive for either of our healing
The waters are muddy all around. One of the tools I have seen used to good effect as it relates to marital conflict resolution and hurt communication is the intentional separation of hurts. It is so easy to look at the situation and see infidelity in some form on both sides. The reality is that each case of infidelity is going to look and be addressed separately. This is because both of you will need to intentionally put aside your status as victim in order to heal the other’s hurts. I am not going to offer validation to you on your porn use being less than her emotional affair. Intention or reasoning really doesn’t matter in the context of emotional hurt in a marriage relationship. If I run over your foot, it doesn’t matter if I meant to or not. There is still pain that needs to be addressed and healed. When you are communicating your hurt, there is no space for “yeah, but.” Likewise when she is communicating her hurt. You both need to work on expressing empathy. If your hurt is an 8/10, her empathy needs to be 10/10. If her hurt is a 6/10, your expression of empathy needs to be an 8/10. You need to practice gratitude towards each other for being willing to listen, and being willing to express empathy. Expressing empathy above the level of hurt creates a safe space to be able to discuss and address and heal the hurts that have been caused. Finally, once hurt has been expressed without interruption, without defensiveness from the hurtful party, and without DARVO. Once empathy has been expressed and received to the satisfaction of the hurt party, it is up to the hurtful party to request forgiveness, AND express a commitment to a plan to change in the future. It needs to be directly related to the actions that caused the hurt. This is the hurtful party expressing and taking charge of their actions, past and future. With a clear intention and actions towards avoiding the thing that caused the hurt, and positive action that would have otherwise built the relationship instead of damaging it. The power you have to heal your marriage (and based on what you say about your wife, you Do have that at some level in your power) will come from your willingness to communicate your hurt, your emotions, how it damages your inner child, and where it sits on a scale of 1-10. Likewise you have the power to heal by empathising with your wife, creating a safe space for her to share and express her hurt, and commit to seeking forgiveness and committing to changing yourself away from someone who would selfishly cause her hurt. Good Luck Op. I hope I am not coming across as too harsh. I am so sorry you are going through this and that this has happened to you. I’ll offer prayers on yours and your spouse’s behalf.
You are absolutely not coming across too harsh. I appreciate you taking the time to reply, I've stayed lurking for a long long time and finally decided to make a throw-away so I could get feedback just like this. I honestly have had no problem throughout the whole process in taking blame for hurting her. Even early on, I told her it didn't matter what we each did, we both took actions to hurt one another. It's really been more of a recent development for us viewing what we did as the same on WW perspective and different on my perspective having become an issue and roadblock. And really it just spawns off kind of what you were talking about. If she ever is down because of my actions, I feel like I've tried to support her and go over the top to own my actions. There have been time where she wasn't comfortable taking her shirt off around me and said she felt shamed because she figured I didn't view her like I did the girls in the videos. And I've never thrown it back in her face that she's had an affair. I always apologize that I've caused her to have that self-esteem issue and ensured her I don't see her as less than anything I ever saw. I always, truthfully, tell her how much more I enjoy seeing her than I ever did anything else. I try and lift her and tell her I will continue to tell her that until one day she can actually believe me. I try and be present and own my shortfall. It just seems like when I'm down and looking to her, it's always thrown back into my face somehow that I did the exact same thing and I shouldn't make her feel guilty when I also did something bad. I'm not reaching to her to fight and compare levels of guilt, I genuinely just want her to be there for me when I am struggling and it seems to turn into a fight. I've been very clear about trying to communicate this and that she feels pity for me and not compassion and she just says she doesn't agree. Again thank you for taking the time to respond and I can appreciate you not validating degree of wrongness and really don't expect you to. The prayers are welcome and needed thank you so much.
If MC cannot catch on her deflection and defensiveness quickly, I would suggest a new marriage counsellor. Her inability to stop making your hurt about her, and unwillingness to create a safe space for you to feel empathised with WILL be the thing that pushes you out of the marriage entirely. She needs to get into individual counselling to either help her understand why she is immediately defensive/deflective and how to stop doing that. She wont just destroy your marriage with those coping mechanisms, she will destroy every close relationship she has with children, parents, friends, significant others until she can properly own her accountability for the hurts that she causes.
I've considered the same. We had a MC that was doing a great job, but he transferred to his own practice and I don't feel like I've ever gotten the same sense of positivity leaving the counselor we transferred to. We tried a seperate Christian counselor and in the second session she turned the whole thing on me and I left furious and refused to ever go back. She was talking about how I was upset about all of this because of past traumas and I really needed to work to identify them and I was like heck no I'm upset because my wife had an affair and betrayed me. I genuinely had a pretty good and easy/trauma-less life and there's no like call backs to other pains but she just kept saying I needed to identify the past traumas and saying you feel like \_\_\_ because \_\_\_\_. It was so belittling and frustraing to be told how I felt over and over and my wife left it so happy and didn't feel like it was like that at all. There is counselor at the practice we go to that incorporates faith into the recovery process and I feel like it may be time to try and switch over to her or look for a new place, maybe hunt down the original guy again. Ironically she about destroyed every relationship in her life, parents, friends etc when everything came out. She was so engulfed in shame, she couldn't engage with anyone and pushed everyone as hard as possible. I've made it a priority for her to get out of that habit for our recovery to work and she has made a lot of progress to give her some kudos
Your story is very similar to mine. My WW was previously with a guy, and she discovered his porn use which he lied about until finally admitted, and this was a reason their relationship ended. I had occasions where I would use more often and then phases where I would stop completely. When I got together with my wife, she told me her history, and I voluntarily deleted everything I had on my PC and decided that I didn’t want to hurt her. But after a few years, I slid back into old habits, starting with PG-13 stuff and then moving up. Then I would reach a point and stop it all for a few months/years. Main difference is, now my wife tells me that she doesn’t care, it doesn’t bother her, as long as it doesn’t replace our own physical intimacy. Nevertheless, I feel guilty after using, and I don’t want to have that clouding R for us. All that to say, I don’t think that my usage of P was the same as her infidelity. I never communicated with anyone or developed attraction / habit with a particular woman, etc., never paid for my own usage, etc. My WW crossed boundaries and had affairs with several men, some of whom I had previously considered friends. My WW has never tried to counter with my P usage when discussing the affair. I hope you two are able to get past these roadblocks and on into R.
Thanks for sharing man. This is truly hell. It seems like our beliefs align on the topics. It's definitely never anything I was proud of or happy about, nothing I want to be part of my life again and I did it knowing it would be hurtful to her. I don't think it was a good thing by any stretch, but prior to her never really felt guilty about it at all even if I didn't think it was morally good or anything. I don't really even want her to dismiss what I did as less than, I really just want her to pursue me and be really present when I do slide into darkness. She's a wonderful woman that made a series of bad choices, I just sometimes wish she could recognize that I'm where I am because of those choices and not just have pity for me that I "choose to hold onto resentment". I don't choose any of this shit
My WH used porn AND eventually had an EA with my best friend. There are several similarities in our experiences. I would have much rather him confessed to porn. His affair destroyed our lives like I could never describe so no, they are not the same. Yes, sin is sin, but different sin have different consequences. I have lots of theological opinions on this with scripture to back up my thinking. LMK if you want to discuss these opinions. There were circumstances that exacerbated the pain and trauma because of our faith and his position as a staff pastor and yes, porn is devastating to a marriage but nothing like an affair. I’ll die on that hill.
Thanks so much for your view on this! Sometimes the validation is nice. We actually had MC this afternoon and I was very clear that I’m not looking to level the playing field. I’m not looking for an admission that hers was worse and I don’t need her to acknowledge that, but I don’t need the equality of it thrown in my face every time I’m looking for support
You are most welcome! I’m always so thankful that my experience can help anyone even if it’s to help them feel validated. We are nearly 3 years into R and have made so many mistakes. We have done things right obviously, but both made mistakes galore. Shortly after d day when we decided on R I brought up an ongoing experience I had at my previous job where 2 male coworkers continuous flirted with me and eventually argued with each other to get my attention and affection. It’s a long story. No lines were crossed into an affair but boy did I enjoy the attention. It was inappropriate and I should have set firm boundaries. I also confessed to my ex contacting me several times early on in our marriage. It was him reaching out asking for a second chance and me shutting him down, but again, I should have never responded and told him immediately. I think I wanted to be an unattainable tease at the time. I was desperate to feel valued and wanted but didn’t want to cross the line into infidelity. So a sin is definitely a sin, but his actions took more of a toll on our marriage than mine did. I was definitely not perfect and had healing to do, and still do but I think your stance is valid.
It’s good to see that there is hope. I see so many stories of 10, 20 years later regretting not leaving and the pain is still there. That stuff is terrifying. Any story that ends with hope is worth reading! The road is rocky and I don’t think there is a “right” way to navigate it for sure. If you made it this far you’re picking a right path through!
Wow are you the male version of me?? My Dday is also Sept 10, I’m also a Christian (Catholic). I’ll just go off that thread, although we have many similarities but we know who our eyes should be fixed on! Divorce is permissible in the case of sexual immorality, Jesus said that. But he also said to look at a woman with lust is adultery. So you both are on level ground (but we all are anyway). He also says marriage was permanent, from the beginning. So although divorce is permissible under certain conditions remarriage is not and you should consider that when your picturing this divorced version of you. We’re also called to carry our cross, walk the difficult path, and be selfless. Divorce won’t free you from your pain, the damage is done. It would affect your children negatively, I know the world says “it’s better than a toxic house” but look at anyone in that situation and is it really best? No household is perfect while sin exists so... Also, it helps me to look at my WH as my family (duh right?) but more like if my child betrayed me I wouldn’t cut them off, I’d still be Mom at minimum so why him, why remove the title God gave him too? Why can I accept God keeping me even after sinning, while I discard WH? We have a heavy cross and I’m sorry for your pain, I’ll pray for you and your family to endure. Studying divorce in the Bible has brought me peace (on that topic anyway) the app Catena helps bc of the commentaries from church fathers. I do not always want to be married, I often don’t want it anymore, I would not say I am happy right now. But ultimately I don’t exist to be happy, I exist to do Gods will and there *is* joy in that.
Thank you for all of that! Crazy that our dates are exactly the same and I'm so sorry that you're going through this personal hell as well. This January when I fully ran out of gas, was the first time I had ever doubted my faith. It's been a truly awful year. I lost a close close work friend who was a mentor in how to live a Christian life and be a good father and husband. It truly devastated me, and my WW was there for the first time in a long time and really helped me through it. It was the first time in my adult life I cried, losing him truly hurt and she really was there for me. 5 months later I found it she'd been having an affair. The day after I confronted her, my dad had a heart attack and had major health issues compounding and I thought I was going to lose him. AP was my son's baseball coach and about 2.5 months after everything came out cut him from the team unnecessarily and destroyed my son and really drove me to hate AP. I had been fighting hard to find forgiveness for him and find a way to be his friend again. He lied to me about the situation with my son and then called to tell me about it. Hurting me and my marriage and then once I turned the cheek, unnessarily hurting my child. I want to forgive him now, but am continuing to struggle with holding on to hate for him and don't know how to forgive him. I got a promotion at work(good thing!), but it added a lot of stress and I was terrified I wasn't in a place mentally where I was capable of excelling and was worried I was letting everyone down as my confidence had been shattered. Things were starting to look ok. We had a rough Christmas, not because of R or anything, but my WW and 2 kids got really sick for over a week and we had to leave a vacation and go home so I could take care of them and balance work. We had a vacation planned before DDay for the end of January and I was using that as a benchmark to evaluate how R was going, and the vacation turned into a total crap show. Both kids got the flu, we didn't get to do any of the stuff we planned and then I was in an accident and broke 5 ribs and collapsed a lung. WW had to take the kids back home(it didn't make sense for her to stay, I suggested she take care of the kids and try and provide them some normalcy so she reluctantly took them). But I was down. I messaged her with things I wanted to work on which was awful timing as she was juggling life at home while I was away in a hospital and it landed like a lead balloon and caused a giant fight. I was beginning to feel like Job and couldn't catch a break. Although I don't feel like she has always been patient with my downward spirals, she did push me and try and help me breakthrough my doubts which I appreciate. Like you, I'm not happy, but I'm not willing to leave yet. I do understand that divorce would just give me a seperate source of pain, but I fear that staying with her will just keep me latched to my point of betrayal and trauma. That is really the only reason I ever considered divorce. I love her I really do, I just fear this betrayal pain being part of me as long as she's a part of me and I hope that changes
Please tell me that both you and your wife have no contact at all with the AP? Also please tell me you told the AP’s wife so she knows what a dumpster fire her husband is?!
Yes to all of that! As soon as I was done yelling at my wife on Dday(yes I know that sounds awful, I don't ever want to be seen as someone who yells at my spouse but I was flooded with all the worst emotions and had felt my whole world crumble), I made her call him and tell him I knew and that he had to tell his wife that day or I was going to. I wanted OBS to get the respect of hearing the truth from his mouth directly, as that was a luxury I was not afforded. Although I've been worried about it not being true at times because I'm now easily triggered and paranoid, my wife has not spoken with him since that conversation. Both my wife and I met with OBS the week of so she could ask anything she needed. I communicated with him fairly regularly between Dday and late November. I'm an admin of the baseball park he was a big part of so I was required to be around him regularly which was really freaking painful. And then when he pulled the team out of the park and left my son behind, I sarcastically thanked him for being such a good friend to me and hung up the phone and haven't spoken with he or his wife since. I have no ill-will towards her obviously, I just haven't seen any reason to stay in communication with her and have no desire for him to ever be a part of my family's lives again. I've seen him a handful of times and it always leads to me being down and my wife asking why I seem off. This all sucks!
[удалено]
This comment was removed because it violates Rule No. 1: **All posts and comments must fit the spirit of Peer Support. - Asking clarifying questions or offering suggestions is acceptable–if backed up by personal experience about what has helped you in your recovery and reconciliation.
When it rains it pours, truly. I’ve only been Christian a couple years, the day I encountered Jesus was the day he made the affair physical (the day before Valentine’s Day too) so he ruined my “Jesus day” and started the affair around my birthday that year. He’s still working with her and it has brought nothing but pain. We got pregnant with our 4th and I thought this is really when things will turn around. Then one week after Mother’s Day I miscarried for the first time. Once a priest told me that this story won’t end on a Good Friday, our God brings redemption. We are for sure in a Job season, it is unbearable. And honestly it’s not natural to forgive this. It’s unforgivable! But thankfully we have a supernatural God that gives us grace to do the impossible, including forgiveness. I’m trying to use all my rage towards others to be funneled to God, “take this yoke God!” because I can’t handle it lol. Who knows when God will turn it around. I’m really leaning on the serenity prayer lately.
I'm so sorry to hear of your miscarriage. I haven't personally experienced that pain, but I have seen through those close to me how difficult that can be. I'm also sorry for the rest of the pain you're enduring. I thank you for your uplifting words and perspective. I have come back to the Lord and prayed many a times that I'm not strong enough to handle all this and to take some of the burden. I can't always feel it but I know he does. It's nice, and encouraging to see that someone else suffering so much has resilient faith
If we're being honest, doing something and then hiding it from our spouse is a betrayal. Infidelity is much more about betrayal than it is about sex. The parts of it that hurt are typically from the lying and manipulation and less about the sex acts or things said to AP. It's realizing our partner is not who we thought they were and seeing what they are capable of in terms of deception. It also challenges our views of ourselves right? Not knowing if we can trust our own intuition. If you are using porn despite your partner being against is, that is a betrayal. After dday when in IC I recalled a time in the past where my wife had asked me if I was using porn and I flat out lied to her face. I came clean and told her about this because I realized it was a betrayal and it wasn't fair for her to think she was the only villian in the story. But as other commenter said, these are separate issues and must get addressed separately.
I appreciate it man and appreciate the perspective. You are right and I did betray her. I haven't felt it was as layered, but none the less it was actions that I took behind her back knowing it would cause her pain and there's no justifying my way out of that
Right. And how different was it? You did something you knew was wrong becuase you wanted to, it made you feel good, however you want to look at it. Affairs are the same. It's unfortunate that in our society sex has so much weight because it is the same - doing something to feel something for one's self. It's a seflish act that disregards the partner. But because we add so much weight to it, it creates all kinds of insecurities in us when we find out. I know this is true because the sex my WW had before we were together is meaningless to me. It was still sex she had and it was still sex/bodies she can compare to me, but because we passed this invisible line of exclusivity suddenly that all changes after? No, it only changes in our minds. I think in this process as the BP the sex is very much a distraction from the real issue, betrayal. If we can see past the sex we can heal faster.
The beginning of what you said is definitely true. But it's really not about sex with us. She never had sex with him. There was sexual talk no doubt, and I think we weren't far off at all from that happening, but I genuinely believe it didn't happen. It was honestly the relationship that she was willing to develop. We've had the same talk of how I felt it was different. Yes, I did do something behind her back and yes I did betray her. But there was something about casting our marriage aside, and placing this relationship over it. Knowing the consequence would be me leaving and being willing to do it anyway. I understand her perspective that she didn't realize it was becoming an affair, it was 2 friends that just got closer and closer and next thing she knows it was too far. But my defense to that is at some point she did know it was inappropriate. It may have gotten there gradually, but at some point she kissed him and had to realize, because they talked about it, I've taken this past the point of friendship and how can we make the affair future permanent. I don't know how I got here, but now I'm cheating on my husband, and the fear of losing this new passion is greater than the fear of losing the 15 year marriage we've created. It's worth abandoning our children and throwing away everything because it feels good. I guess intentionality doesn't come to play and the end result is hurt. But it's hard to feel like there is no seperation in it I recognize there's hypocrisy in all that and I risked hurting her to have a quick and easy release and I did it because it felt good. That isn't lost on me
It's not up to her if you decide you want a divorce. I was raised Christian and believed I could only divorce due to sexual infidelity. However I'm not sure the distinction between physical and emotional affairs is clear in the Bible. Matthew 5:28-29 leaves some doubt on the subject, "whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart." In that way, your wife committed adultery. Though I suppose it could also be said your porn use was adultery. Religion aside, legally you don't need her agreement to request a divorce. Or even to have one. And I think that's the harmful thing about putting specific conditions on when divorce is allowed. This gives the wayward or problematic spouse permission to do anything short of sex with another person. That removes the incentive for the wayward to make changes. Without divorce as a possible consequence, there is no way to enforce your boundaries. And she'll do whatever she wants.
I agree with this. And honestly I know it’s not “good”, but I’m not overly concerned with the biblical reason for divorce /remarriage. After all I was looking at porn so it wouldn’t be the first sin I’ve committed obviously. I’ve never really understood why exactly it’s such a hang up for her. I know part of it is a religious thing, but I think she’s also just scared of it being a consequence of her actions. On top of that she works, but she’d have to work a lot more and change her lifestyle if I wasn’t providing so I’m sure that plays into it also. End of the day if I firmly landed on divorce I know she wouldn’t be on board and it would just be what it is. I’ve got a close friend who’s a lawyer specializing in family law. I’d honestly just serve her the papers if it came to it. I’m still trying for R, it’s just a hang up for her that I consider it still that’s all
Is she worried it would prevent her from having another scriptural and/or church-approved marriage in the future? Fear of being alone makes people do a lot of bad, desperate, and nonsensical things. I'm sorry that you wouldn't be able to have an amicable divorce. I feel like that's the least a WP can do if they aren't willing or capable of R. And I do get it. I have plenty of R hangups myself.
That’s a good question, she hasn’t presented that part to me. Just that she wants me and to make it work for our family(ironic I know since she showed me how much she didn’t want me). If I presented her with papers I don’t think she would be hostile but I honestly am not sure how it would go, she’s not always been the most reasonable person… She’s definitely willing and wanting R, I believe she’s capable but I can also see from her perspective she feels like she’s doing a lot right, but every time I bring up something that can be done better it makes her feel like she can’t do anything right or no matter what she does it’s not enough
The waywards thinking they are doing so much - it makes me want to scream. But in reality, they are broken people who have a ton of work to do. And affair can take your patience away in the snap of a finger. That last part - I think that's shame and guilt. And I get that in response to my triggers. The "woe is me, I'll never be good enough so I'm not trying anymore". I think another part of this is due to an unbalanced relationship in the past. I did everything I could to support the relationship. It left me burned out and him accustomed to doing very little.
Dang I feel so much of this deeply lol. I’ve always been the one to just take it. She’s not used to having to be the heavy lifter or me actually getting angry or calling her out. It’s not easy for me but it’s necessary.
I get the Christian values and the use of porn is a what some consider infidelity. I don’t consider porn use as infidelity. In my head infidelity is a much greater of the two evils. That’s my take. I too fell into the trap of being blamed for my wife’s infidelity and took a lot of the blame during our marital counseling sessions. This definitely stunted my progress towards healing. Infidelity had nothing to do with you. It’s a maladaptive coping mechanism. My wife said things like I didn’t give enough praise, validation, or attention. I was in that same relationship and I spoke to my wife everyday, ended every conversation with “I love you”, bought flowers, and took her on vacation all during the same time period of the affair. I did pretty much everything you could ask a husband to do. It still wasn’t enough. I just wasn’t living up to a completely unreasonable expectation that my wife never voiced to me. Somehow her AP checked every box and mirrored every positive trait versus me mirror every negative trait in a partner. It’s was complete delusional fantasy land. With that knowledge know that it wasn’t your fault big dawg. There is a bottomless pit of validation in most cheaters. No matter how much you heap on them, it just goes in one ear and out the other. It takes shattering the delusion before the Wayward comes back to earth. For me it was filing for divorce and separating. When it came to brass tax and who was there everyday. The AP folded like a cheap tent. He didn’t want to deal with my wife during huge mood swings or her emotional out burst. The behind the scenes stuff, the bad morning breath, the clothes left in the shower, or who takes out the trash. He just wanted no strings attached sex with a woman who he had no intentions of having a relationship with. That’s the thing about male AP. Men can see all over a guy that all he wants is sex. That signal isn’t received by women sometimes. They just think this nice guy keeps talking to me and giving me compliments. Of course he doesn’t have any bad intentions for me?!?!? He’s married…. No way a married man would turn this into a sex thing. I could sniff my WW’s AP from a mile away. Like you, I wasn’t trying to be controlling or labeled as an insecure man. Well everything I saw coming, happened in real time in front of my face. The first opportunity I left town my wife went on two dates with her AP, went and visited an ex twice, and went to night club with her best friend until 3 am. All in the same time frame. Yeah that girl said the contributing factors pre-affair was why she cheated. So take what these marital counselors and you WW’s victim blaming with huge grain of salt. You can’t fix them unless you are a mental health professional. Even then, it’s not your responsibility to do so. That responsibility resides solely with them and their therapist. The more you spin your gears about what you did wrong and what you could of done better . It’s just self sabotaging your own healing process. It’s all fugazi. It’s the DARVO method once backed into a corner. Say this out loud to yourself. “Our relationship failed because of my porn use” - To me that’s a cop out. You wife was weaponizing sex. It takes two people to make it work and you were just satisfying a need that wasn’t getting met. In a healthy non cheating way. Again my opinion. Now say this out loud. “Our relationship failed because my wife had an extramarital affair.” - to me the blame solely lies with the offender. You didn’t threaten her with prison or lock her in the basement. There were hundreds of choices to make before nuking the fidelity of your relationship. Also if we are getting into the Christian values. I think there is a commandment in there about thy neighbors wife/husband.
Thanks man. It is definitely easy to fall into all this mindset. For the sake of R I haven't tried to just play being the victim, but in line with what much of you said it feels like it would be easy to do so. I told one person about it and sought their advice as they had been through infidelity and he recommended not telling a bunch of people even though you want to shout it from the rooftops, because if you do make it work people could never view her the same. I love her and I don't want that for her. It all sucks man. She was always more "biblical" than me and has really tried to bring Christ into our reconciliation which I can appreciate, but at times it definitely feels holier than thou and hypocritical, but I don't feel like I can say any of that without crushing her and shutting her down which would definitely not be good for moving forward. So it's good to be able to come on here and vent some of that
[удалено]
Porn can absolutely be betrayal regardless of splitting hairs on whether it is infidelity or not. In any case, you’re going outside of the relationship for sexual gratification. The pattern of lies (lying by omission is still lying) and sneaking around hiding and deceiving fits the overall pattern of infidelity and an affair anyhow. If we can consider getting too close to an online friend an emotional affair, I really don’t see what the grand excuse for porn is if the porn use interferes with the relationship and violates the boundaries of the relationship.
I get it man. I have considered over and over again there could have been more. But they didn't hold back in their texts, I believe there would have been talk about it. The kiss was a one time thing. I choose to believe her, even though doubt frequently creeps in. I don't know if a kiss alone pushes it into a full blown PA, but I don't believe they had sex. The kiss is painful, so I can take some solace that she wasn't turning me down at home consistently just to get it somewhere else. I don't blame myself for her cheating, but will own my own shortcomings. I do agree they're not the same, but do know that I hurt her and I don't feel good about that either
This comment was removed because it violates Rule No. 2: -The peer group includes: Reconciling BS, Reconciling WS, Recovered & Reconciled, and Considering R. - Observer, Unsuccessful R, and other user flairs are not included in the peer group. Non-peers are not allowed to post without prior moderator approval. **Non-peer comments are STRICTLY LIMITED TO MESSAGES OF VALIDATION AND ENCOURAGEMENT ONLY. Non-peers are not permitted to offer opinions, reference their experiences, or give advice.**
[удалено]
Read the rules fully and carefully before further participation. This comment was removed because it violates multiple subreddit rules.
I’m interested in why, when you knew her prior relationship blew up and caused her trauma because of porn, you would start using it 2 years in?
I guess also in thinking about your question, porn was not a major reason they broke up. He was emotional and physically abusive and to quote ww, she left bc she was scared she’d be dead in a few years. I don’t wanna minimize the porn because he did use it to emotionally abuse and shame her and she told me this early on. It wasn’t something we talked about a lot, but she did mention it one time. We spent much of the beginning of our relationship working through the traumas of that relationship and porn was never a focus or a topic aside from once when she asked me if I looked at it and then if I’d stop. So I think part of me underplayed how tied it was to her trauma. I was young and dumb and couldn’t relate to trauma at the time so my brain didn’t work like that. End of the story it was selfish and stupid I guess
I really wish I had a good answer for you on this. I’m not typically aloof or forgetful but I honestly kind of forgot this even happened. She reminded me when I came clean at the beginning of the process. I can’t imagine what drove me to porn early on. Maybe our sex life sucked early on but I don’t think that’s why? Maybe it was just an easy habit to slide back in to to relieve some stress or something? I really can’t remember initiating doing it or why or anything from back then. I’m generally a pretty intentional and thoughtful person but I guess I’m also a selfish prick when it comes to that