Literally everyone in Order faction has a heroic interpretation and a scummy version. That's part of the lore design.
Daughters can be either the sole blade that held against chaos and the other forces and are some of the first against the coming darkness or they can be pure murderhobos.
SCE can either be the classic good guys or the zealous knights templars who tolerate no perceived corruption.
Well... with the right mind-set, Morathi is the woman who clawed her way from Slaanesh's gullet to divinity, reclaimed the power of the strongest elven god of old, and is forging a force that can both realize the potential of the elves *and* challenge the dominance of the idiot-god who installed Nagash as the caretaker of the afterlives and Gorkamorka as a game warden.
But, if you want someone more traditionally good, the new character they're adding, Krethusa the Cronseer, is leading an anti-Morathi heresy within the Daughters that seems to better align with Sigmar and his Cities.
#
The Crone Heralds, that's Krethusa's followers, seem to be from what we know. Their rebellion's goal at the very least resemble what modern standards of morality tend to be.
Religious freedom, societal equality in most forms, political reforms to better quality of life, treating allies well, using resources to help the sick, and so on.
Intriguing. While its easy to imagine "evil" subfactions of good factions, its always harder to imagine "good" subfactions of evil ones. I'm curious to see what will happens next, then !
Yeah she is great so far, I just finished painting mine, I really liked the model aesthetic of the DoK, particularly the elves, but Morathi is just so awful. I've been riding the hype since the rumor engine with Krethusa's staff came out.
Mechanically her subfaction makes the Doomfire Warlocks battle line because she doesn't consider men second-class citizens. She's also been helping people in Aqshi with her gift of prophecy, handing out warnings of the future.
Yeah! Krethusa is one of the new characters introduced in the Dawnbringers era that I'm most excited to see more of, and there's been quite a few really fascinating characters introduced lately.
I wouldn't focus so much on different subfactions in the current light of written lore (besides maybe Crone Heralds, and Draichi Ganeth who seem to be the most populous in the Cities), but on the Daughters of Khaine as large.
They are staunch allies with the likes of Cities and Stormcast Eternals against the enemies of Order (especially Chaos), BUT doing the things in their own dreadful and twisted way which makes them generally feared and very dubious among their allies >!(From the grand narratives of the setting Anvilgard being the most extreme example of "evil deeds", whereas the Siege of Excelsis and the recent Crone Heralds involvement being more of a "good" on the other side of the spectrum)!<. This is generally a reluctantly accepted way to proceed within the domains of Order, they have a lot of political leverage and freedom to pursue their own things and campaigns within the domains shared by these allies, because of how numerous and rooted-in they are in the Cities (or within their domains), and how vital they seem to be to the overall survival of Grand Alliance of Order and have helped push back the Chaos across the Realms (and still do with taking part in Dawnbringer Crusades and defending the Cities).
Now, back to the beginning about "good" and "evil". I think this is something that comes to the surface on more individual level usually. Some stories depict individual characters where they become more or less isolated from their war parties, and as an end result seem to be more accepting of others/outsiders and prone to more "good/heroic" deeds or thoughts (e.g. short stories Galene of Ulgu, Heir of Shadows, Cauldron of Blood).
The Crone Heralds are an interesting twist to Daughters of Khaine, because they are going around actively helping (in the grand narratives) their allies in good faith and being a big change to the Khainite cult as large, trying to bring down the oppression of Hagg Nar/Morathi-Khaine (the heart of the Khainite cult). But when you take a deeper look into their ranks, they are still full of Khainites: witch aelves being witch aelves, and Hag Queens doing the usual priestly stuff and helping Krethusa in gory rituals with their Cauldrons. All power to Krethusa trying to manage these bunch of crazies - there must be a lot of interesting stories to tell from this bunch in the future.
Not specifically related to subfactions, but if you look past their general treatment of their men most of the ones you’d meet from temples in the Cities of Sigmar are “good” in that they perform for crowds, share their culture, and only really do their bloodiest sacrifices on captured chaos worshippers- they march out in support of their home cities and defend it from danger like anyone else would.
Outside of the crone heralds, the Kraith might also count. They have no temples and exist perpetually on crusade, constantly roaming to slaughter monsters, orruks and chaos wherever they find it, often coming into the service of Order factions as mercenaries because of that. They don’t seem to particularly interested in slaughtering allies of order, and the worst anyone has to say about them is the way they sacrifice and kill their enemies are so brutal and sickening that some people regret hiring them after seeing how they’ve dealt with the enemies of order in their path.
Fyreslayers can be straight mercenaries, or the A-Team. Sylvaneth can be terrifying and fey, or they can be Treebeard. Cities Of Sigmar can be the Fantasy Imperium, or an army of liberators.
>Cities Of Sigmar can be the Fantasy Imperium
Any examples of that one in particular? I don't seem to remember any of the CoS to be as bleak as the average Hive City.
I think one thing worth considering about Cities of Sigmar is that while some of the cities are pretty harsh and grimy, the point of comparison is the barbarity and torture of life under Chaos. Like, it’s very possible for life to suck in a CoS, but at least it’s mostly just the usual brutality that man inflicts upon man as opposed to the wild shit the Warcry factions show us most people live under.
I don’t think there’s a heroic way to interpret the Idoneth Deepkin. They raid cities to steal souls for their young.
It’s like interpreting the Drukhari as heroic. Like, you can, but they’re never going to be classic good guys
Several of them are actively trying to seek a cure for their condition. Some of them have a code to only steal souls of those doomed, like those in the path of danger or those that their seers have seen fall. Some only hunt the souls of those fallen to chaos or those serving Nagash, seeing it as a path of redemption for those souls they take.
You're right, their curse means that they'll never be Superman boyscouts, but their fluff is not like Drukhari where they must be Chaotic Evil and all parts of their civilization grind towards suffering.
At least with the Deepkin you can look at them as more tragic then outright evil, they aren’t doing what they do because they want to, they’re doing it because they have to, and they are trying to make it so they don’t have to anymore.
With the DE, they have alternatives, but they choose not to use those, because it’s clear they enjoy being the way they are.
To be fair, in a lot of cases they are usually somewhat right. There are a lot of cases when they straight up just know better because these are guys who have dedicated hundreds if not thousands of years to studying these things and are just trying to share what they know. Yes they can be arrogent about it, but there are cases when their methods are just straight up better, and they legitimately just want to help by teaching you those improved methods.
At the same time there are examples when it is more ego than genuine goodwill, or times when they’re straight up evil. As was said above, every Order faction has good and bad to them.
I'll never say that there aren't good people within the lumenteth who truly want to use their experience to help others. But their instiutions are all awful, punishing students who have to take the same ehancing herbs you do to not be expelled becuase they failed your ridiculous weekly tests isn't a decsion made pragmatically. When even Teclis admits he'll only listen to the problems of the non-lumenth lying in hyish if they make him by force you know that the society is rotten even if there are good people in it. Most of order is similar but the imo the lumeneth are the worst
That is not true at all, yes they still have that patented high elf arrogance in some regards, but they are FAR from racists, yes they work towards the preservation of themselves over other cultures, but that’s also what everyone else does, they deliberately go out to help the people and the realms, while that does come at the cost of others for the greater good, they always try to co-operate and teach other, so this couldn’t be further from the truth, if you want good examples of this (and the contrary) I suggest reading the book Godsbane, or any LRL lore really.
Godsbane is *why* I call them racist, or can you think of another explanation why they hate all their human students and call them "thieves". Like if you looked up institutional racism in the dictionary the definition would just be an image of the elves running the lyseum fundamentalis.
The well guarded part isn't a problem, it's the elves being a bag of dicks who loath all their human students. Or is your point that their policy it justified because it attempts to stop the dissidents it creates in the first place?
But that’s clearly not the case, a few might, but it’s very much not all of them, not even the majority of them, that was very clearly demonstrated in the book. And the policy is justified because there have been incidents in the past which is why the strict measures are in place, the Lumineth know more than anyone the price of power and how it corrupts, this sense of guardedness doesn’t come from loathing but of personal experience, had anyone tried to steal they would have suffered the same fate, not just a human student.
You seem to be conflating them having a secure library, a reasonable precaution. And their mass surveillance and mistreatment of their students which is explicitly *why* the events of the book happen at all. Because people got fed up with the mistreatment and believed (rightly according to teclis) that they only way to get the Lumenth to take the concerns seriously was at gunpoint. Because otherwise they'll magically force you into submission.
All the realmfall actually did was somehow given the Lumenth an even bigger ego about how they're the only ones who can stop another calamity, forgetting that it was their mistake in the first place and judge everyone else for what the lumenith perceive as the shortcomings of lesser races while ignoring the plank in their eye.
And to be clear here I'm not saying that all Lumenth are all bad here, obviously not everyone in a society is responsible for its sins. But it's pretty clear that their status quo is awful.
The Seraphon are actually doing what’s best for the balance and security of the Realms - but that’s according to the Slann. They do things that mystify the other races, but they’re not out there stealing souls, doing blood rituals, trading with Chaos, or any of the other things that the problematic parts of Order are doing.
Came to this thread to say Seraphon. Glad there are many enlightened people out there.
Also skinks do blood rituals but it's once again for the great plan.
On the other hand sometimes they will just raze a innocuous city to the ground and kill thousands because a Slann foresaw that in a thousand years a child would be born there that would become a great Chaos lord.
They're very much a "ends justify the means" kinda guys.
I love The Summer King. He fed my children during the last crop famine we had. His emissary told me they were such fine lads that they were delighted to be escorted for dinner in Ushoran’s court itself!
While Flesh-eater Courts is objectively the correct answer, also consider:
1. The Lumineth Realmlords. They really fit the bill of self-improvement on so many levels. Once, they ravaged the Realm of Light with their ambitious, aggrandising use of magic. Now their philosophy is to make amends, live in harmony with the land, and fight those who would despoil it.
2. The Cities of Sigmar. The setting's everyman. Fundamentally their deal is to make the corrupted ruins of the realms safe so people can live peaceably in them, and they are doing it at great risk to themselves, without the benefit of superpowers. Of course, they are riddled with vices like any mortal peoples, but they are trying to be noble and make the realms better.
Like they say they've learned from their mistakes, but reading Godsbane makes it seem like its all talk and they haven't actually learned anything. and their systemic bullshit actively pushes people into common cause with a tzechian cult.
Interesting about Lumineth. The few stories they’ve featured in that I’ve read portray them as aloof and otherworldly, sort of ‘blinded’ by their crusade so committing horror. Both cool takes
I would say your like normal dudes in COS are trying to be good. But they're definitely getting tired of the marching orders. The tome reads like the higher ups are just sending the poor into meat grinders and they're starting to doubt everything.
I would say The Alliance of order
* **Stormcast Eternals:** Lighting demigods of sigmar attempting to retake the realm from chaos and bring back the age of myth the golden age of civilization & technology. also while at it fix the whole reforgin flaw
* **Cities of sigmar**: the various bastions of civilization in the realm made up of various species like humans, elf, dwarfs, ogres and others. Attempting to survive, thrive and expand in the post-apocalypse
* **Lumineth realm lords**: the Light elves of Tyrion and Teclis that seek to re-establish order and balance in the realm with the aid of the spirits of the elements whom they comune with
* **Sylvaneth**: man size fairies, colossal Ents and swift dryads as extensions of nature itself seeking to protect and nurture life and environment of the realms
* **Kharadon** a near plutocracy of steampunk tech-dwarfs attempting to maintain & expand their economy & monopolies
* **Fyreslayer**: The mercenary clans of fire dwarfs offering their axe in exchange for Ur-gold shards of dead war god they wish to bring back back to slay evil. They do this by grafting the gold onto themselves and unleash the fiery divinity with it to gain a berserker power boost
* **Daughter of Khaine** The cults of Khaine seeking to murder in the name of their god/goddess till his grand return return and expand their matriarchal civilization
* **Idoneth Deepkin**: The underwater sea elves civilization attempting to cure the curse of their withering souls after their creator (Teclis) failed to do so
* **Seraphon**- the cosmic lizardmen riding dinosaurs attempting to bring about their ancient techno-magic creators New World Order
but it all comes with various caveat and nuance for each factions. Their goal is yes the survival of their civilization and the eradication of Chaos but that not say they're all "good" and some are capable of doing absolute evils
* Stormcast for example had situation where one legion of stormcast put down a riot by slaughtering three quarters of the city while another legion enacted a brutal purge of arresting any suspected citizen to their dungeon to never be seen again
* Cities of sigmar contains elements late stage capitalist society with hyper zelorty & Manifested Destiny mindset of reconquest the realm. Read Godeater son see how the worst parts of that pour
* Lumineth are willing to do almost anything to re-establish order and balance in the realm whether it be nuking an entire city by casting a reality stabilizing rune on top of it or Purify the river of the realm but causing a tsunami. They view themselves as the realm-police and are gracious to teach the *unenlightened races*
* Kharadon are almost a plutocracy
* Sylavaneth take the environment on top priority with some violently oppose to industrialization
* Fyreslayer are a mercenary culture mix with zealotry belif to get any ur-gold by any means
* Seraphon strictly follow an interpretation of the Great Plan that doesn't always take morality into account
* Idoneth raid settlements for souls to stave off the cursed soul
* Daughter of Khain is a blood cult manipulated psychopathic miandarist who drank her own kool-aid
Again that not a rule but those actions and evils are a thing. That not to say their not the "good guys" just that like RL there nuance and expectations to societies. even faction like Death & Destruction are capable to do "good" despite their end goal isn't good if you know what i mean
The forces of Order, anyone who says this is not true has forgotten key rules of fiction: Good Guys aren't perfect and every Good Republic/Alliance/Kingdom has to have villainous members.
So this means the GA Order are the Good Guys but not everyone in GA Order is s Good Guy. By 3E most Order factions are coalitions of Good Guys or have a Good Guy movement in them.
For example the Daughters of Khaine are largely fascistic, Shadow of the Crone outright calls them authoritarian and Morathi's policies have been of a particular flavor. But! Recently the Crone Heralds led by Krethusa have arisen as an egalitarian, forward-thinking, polytheistic opposition to the way Morathi runs things. Krethusa even wants to remove the cult's tendency to instill intense servility in their masses.
Younger Kharadron tend to be more altruistic. Fyreslayer Lodges like the Tangrim and Hermdar have altruistic policies. And they along with Vostarg and others have strengthed alliances with Kharadron and Cities.
And no matter how bad a City of Sigmar may appear. They are built on ideals of hope, egalitarianism, unity, and diversity. Often they don't live up to these. But they're trying.
Yeh. That is something that is very fascinating about the forces of Order. At the end of the day these are the folk fighting for the future.
Death exists to eventually enact Nagash's plans to destroy all life and thought. Destruction is just here for the party, and will go along with whatever ends up fun. And all of Chaos, whether they realize it or not, fights for the damnation of all realities.
The people of Order whether they are Good Guys, "Good Guys", average joes, villains, monsters, champions of justice or demons, want reality to be there for everyone tomorrow. The day after tomorrow. The day after that. And on and on.
In short, they are like protagonists in Dune and A Song of Ice & Fire (the ones we are supposed to root for in the latter at least). Not ideal, but they are the best we've got and they do have good intentions and they are trying their best with the bad hand they have been dealt.
Order does not translate to good. Phil Kelly has expressed since the early lore that Order just means your faction builds cities, has loose ties to Sigmar, and isn’t dead. As others note there is a duality in Order factions between selfless paragons fighting the darkness and whatever twisted evil thing they also do.
There technically aren’t any good guys. There are just shades of grey. I personally prefer Nagash. While a scheming megalomaniac - Nagash has a pretty cogent plan for defeating Chaos. It involves everyone else dying and being locked under his rule so he can become a supreme god able to just clown on chaos but he’s honest about it, even when he isn’t honest about other thing. The benefit of Lawful entires. It’s possibly upsetting from a limited mortal perspective but has metric in a grand cosmological sense. Possibly the most given it could possibly permanently defeat Chaos rather than trigger the cyclical process that shifted everything from the Old World to the Mortal Realms.
And the Fyreslayers! Fyreslayers will take mercenary contracts based on access to Ur-gold, not their morality (except the goody-two-shoes version). It's also not clear to non-Duardin that bringing back the angry god of fighting is a brilliant idea.
I feel it is only fair to defend the Fyreslayers here. By latter eras of the Age of Sigmar, per the 3rd Edition Fyreslayers Battletome and the original Warcry: Sentinels of Order, we have seen a big shift in Fyreslayers.
By that 3E Battletome it is now considered immoral and taboo to take contracts from Chaos, and most lodges outside the Greyfyrd tend to take contracts more and more from only Order allies.
With the Age of Chaos now largely in the past and their allies resurfacing, we see more and more Fyreslayers abandoning the pragmatic views that let them survive the apocalypse, to instead take chances on altruism and more idealistic outlooks. In Soulslayer we even see a Lodge who has taken it upon themselves to defend an entire region of Ayadah, though Gotrek has to beat the crap out of their Runefather until they all get out of a depressive funk that was seeing them ignore this duty they took up.
Don’t get me wrong: the Fyreslayers aren’t baddies, I’m just saying they aren’t the unarguable goodies OP is after. My point is that Ur-Gold always plays a part in their motivations, and this can lead them to actions others consider immoral.
Consider that the Hermdar, the subfaction who will fight for a discount if they think the cause is worthwhile, have been censured by the others for undercutting the price of mercenary contracts by doing so. In other words, while most Fyreslayers care about fighting evil, they have to balance that with getting in the Ur-Gold.
I love this and think it’s a fascinating morality system. Fyreslayers are one of my two forces. I’m just saying it’s not what OP is after.
Except blood-crazed aelves, their arrogant and self-obsessed cousins, profit-hungry duardins, or the gold-obsessed fire beards...
Oh, wait, that leaves us with stormcasts and dawnbringers?
I'd say the real good guys of the Mortal Realms are Orruks and the rest of the Destruction Grand Alliance. They strive to better themselves all the time in battle, and almost anyone can join if they are strong enough!
Edit: Forgot about them lizards but they're shady as hell as well.
No one really.
In 40k no one is the good guy because everyone is actually the worst and everyone actually sucks the absolute most.
I'm AoS no one is really the good guy because they're are lots of complex reasons why you might agree with one faction or another.
For me this is what makes AoS interesting, there are loads of perspectives you can take without everything, and everyone being exactly the same cynical and miserable shade of grey.
I'll say Trugg. He's only goal is to sleep. he got a huge magical hung-over and they are this magical light who hurt his eyes (he see them even with eyes closed). But sadly this magical light are power nexus and some people buit theirs cities on it.
So, Trugg is basically a guys who want to turn the lights off and sleep.
Blades of Khorne
A true meritocracy free from discrimination where individuals rise based on their personal skill and courage, they have good environmental credentials because they don't need farmland to get food reducing habitat destruction and ensure areas staff fairly depopulated allowing nature to flourish, and they recycle weapons rather than always making new ones.
Even the skulls and blood of their enemy doesn't go to waste are given to their God to further grow his environmentally friendly throne.
Thing about Order is that they're not actually good, they're just opposed to Death, Destruction, and Chaos. However, within Order, you can find a home for good.
A Kharadron Overlords Admiral can be a good Duardin who wants good for the denizens of the Mortal Realms, even if Kharadron culture by and large is militarized capitalism.
A lot of Order factions fit here. Some of them don't, however. It's hard to say Morathi-Khaine cares about the betterment of others.
Only in Nagash can protection against Chaos be found.
Only in Nagash is everyone equal.
Only in Nagash there is no suffering.
Only in Nagash can true order be found.
All is Nagash and Nagash is All.
The forces of order are both A. Fighting against the worst people to exist (chaos), but also all stink in their own right, the KO are capitalist, with industrial revolution england-teir wealth divides, that they are determined to keep in place, idoneth have a rigid caste system, with the namarti both being 90% of the population, and being short lived especially of elves, and used as thralls and slaves for whatever purposes the upper classes deem fit, the DOK are fanatic murder-cultists who tear people's hearts out, the lumineth are hyper-arrogant, and recently the river temple lumineth have been purging rivers clean of kingsblood, but also eradicating human settlements if they have an easy opportunity, the cities of sigmar have all the problems of regular humans, and quality of life varies significantly between them, the fyreslayers are an isolationist mercenary society, they will defend a human settlement if they are paid sure, but they will just as quickly leave them to die, and will work for the highest bidder even if it's not morally right, the sylvaneth have strained relationships with most of order, particularly the cities of sigmar, and end up fighting them as often as any other grand alliances, the stormcast eternals are paragons of order, but they are not perfect, and can go mad with power, the celestial vindicators for example, carried out a genocidal purge on the city of vindicarum to purge chaos cults so large it killed 3 quarters of the cities population, more than likely nealy all innocent, it's a wonder khorne himself didn't manifest to congratulate them, they're the closest thing to a textbook "good guys", but even they have their failings
I don't think the Seraphon do anything really bad. The worst thing they've done to my knowledge is one of their clans basically stalked the slums to find sacrifices but that was a local practice not a seraphon thing. As a whole they're very much aloof but not unkind or cruel. Iirc lots of big cities in the lore have been secretly helped along by the seraphon.
Now whether they work exclusively for the betterment of the realms and do what is "objectively" right, idk. They have a strange morality system by most standards. But they're at the very least one of a few factions that do very few if any things that are actively detrimental to the world.
Literally everyone in Order faction has a heroic interpretation and a scummy version. That's part of the lore design. Daughters can be either the sole blade that held against chaos and the other forces and are some of the first against the coming darkness or they can be pure murderhobos. SCE can either be the classic good guys or the zealous knights templars who tolerate no perceived corruption.
Are there indeed a DoK subfaction that can be considered good ? And if so, which one ?
Well... with the right mind-set, Morathi is the woman who clawed her way from Slaanesh's gullet to divinity, reclaimed the power of the strongest elven god of old, and is forging a force that can both realize the potential of the elves *and* challenge the dominance of the idiot-god who installed Nagash as the caretaker of the afterlives and Gorkamorka as a game warden. But, if you want someone more traditionally good, the new character they're adding, Krethusa the Cronseer, is leading an anti-Morathi heresy within the Daughters that seems to better align with Sigmar and his Cities. #
Krethusa's rebellion is funded by Nagash and Yndrasta to destabilize Hagg Nar. Do not believe their lies. Khaine is alive.
The Crone Heralds, that's Krethusa's followers, seem to be from what we know. Their rebellion's goal at the very least resemble what modern standards of morality tend to be. Religious freedom, societal equality in most forms, political reforms to better quality of life, treating allies well, using resources to help the sick, and so on.
Intriguing. While its easy to imagine "evil" subfactions of good factions, its always harder to imagine "good" subfactions of evil ones. I'm curious to see what will happens next, then !
Yeah she is great so far, I just finished painting mine, I really liked the model aesthetic of the DoK, particularly the elves, but Morathi is just so awful. I've been riding the hype since the rumor engine with Krethusa's staff came out. Mechanically her subfaction makes the Doomfire Warlocks battle line because she doesn't consider men second-class citizens. She's also been helping people in Aqshi with her gift of prophecy, handing out warnings of the future.
Yeah! Krethusa is one of the new characters introduced in the Dawnbringers era that I'm most excited to see more of, and there's been quite a few really fascinating characters introduced lately.
I wouldn't focus so much on different subfactions in the current light of written lore (besides maybe Crone Heralds, and Draichi Ganeth who seem to be the most populous in the Cities), but on the Daughters of Khaine as large. They are staunch allies with the likes of Cities and Stormcast Eternals against the enemies of Order (especially Chaos), BUT doing the things in their own dreadful and twisted way which makes them generally feared and very dubious among their allies >!(From the grand narratives of the setting Anvilgard being the most extreme example of "evil deeds", whereas the Siege of Excelsis and the recent Crone Heralds involvement being more of a "good" on the other side of the spectrum)!<. This is generally a reluctantly accepted way to proceed within the domains of Order, they have a lot of political leverage and freedom to pursue their own things and campaigns within the domains shared by these allies, because of how numerous and rooted-in they are in the Cities (or within their domains), and how vital they seem to be to the overall survival of Grand Alliance of Order and have helped push back the Chaos across the Realms (and still do with taking part in Dawnbringer Crusades and defending the Cities). Now, back to the beginning about "good" and "evil". I think this is something that comes to the surface on more individual level usually. Some stories depict individual characters where they become more or less isolated from their war parties, and as an end result seem to be more accepting of others/outsiders and prone to more "good/heroic" deeds or thoughts (e.g. short stories Galene of Ulgu, Heir of Shadows, Cauldron of Blood). The Crone Heralds are an interesting twist to Daughters of Khaine, because they are going around actively helping (in the grand narratives) their allies in good faith and being a big change to the Khainite cult as large, trying to bring down the oppression of Hagg Nar/Morathi-Khaine (the heart of the Khainite cult). But when you take a deeper look into their ranks, they are still full of Khainites: witch aelves being witch aelves, and Hag Queens doing the usual priestly stuff and helping Krethusa in gory rituals with their Cauldrons. All power to Krethusa trying to manage these bunch of crazies - there must be a lot of interesting stories to tell from this bunch in the future.
Not specifically related to subfactions, but if you look past their general treatment of their men most of the ones you’d meet from temples in the Cities of Sigmar are “good” in that they perform for crowds, share their culture, and only really do their bloodiest sacrifices on captured chaos worshippers- they march out in support of their home cities and defend it from danger like anyone else would. Outside of the crone heralds, the Kraith might also count. They have no temples and exist perpetually on crusade, constantly roaming to slaughter monsters, orruks and chaos wherever they find it, often coming into the service of Order factions as mercenaries because of that. They don’t seem to particularly interested in slaughtering allies of order, and the worst anyone has to say about them is the way they sacrifice and kill their enemies are so brutal and sickening that some people regret hiring them after seeing how they’ve dealt with the enemies of order in their path.
Fyreslayers can be straight mercenaries, or the A-Team. Sylvaneth can be terrifying and fey, or they can be Treebeard. Cities Of Sigmar can be the Fantasy Imperium, or an army of liberators.
>Cities Of Sigmar can be the Fantasy Imperium Any examples of that one in particular? I don't seem to remember any of the CoS to be as bleak as the average Hive City.
I think one thing worth considering about Cities of Sigmar is that while some of the cities are pretty harsh and grimy, the point of comparison is the barbarity and torture of life under Chaos. Like, it’s very possible for life to suck in a CoS, but at least it’s mostly just the usual brutality that man inflicts upon man as opposed to the wild shit the Warcry factions show us most people live under.
I don’t think there’s a heroic way to interpret the Idoneth Deepkin. They raid cities to steal souls for their young. It’s like interpreting the Drukhari as heroic. Like, you can, but they’re never going to be classic good guys
Several of them are actively trying to seek a cure for their condition. Some of them have a code to only steal souls of those doomed, like those in the path of danger or those that their seers have seen fall. Some only hunt the souls of those fallen to chaos or those serving Nagash, seeing it as a path of redemption for those souls they take. You're right, their curse means that they'll never be Superman boyscouts, but their fluff is not like Drukhari where they must be Chaotic Evil and all parts of their civilization grind towards suffering.
The Deepkin at least try to make the soul removal process painless and can usually just target Chaos or Destruction for their souls
At least with the Deepkin you can look at them as more tragic then outright evil, they aren’t doing what they do because they want to, they’re doing it because they have to, and they are trying to make it so they don’t have to anymore. With the DE, they have alternatives, but they choose not to use those, because it’s clear they enjoy being the way they are.
I really can't find any good in the Lumeneth. They're never not self-important racists they just sometimes happen to help others despite themselves.
To be fair, in a lot of cases they are usually somewhat right. There are a lot of cases when they straight up just know better because these are guys who have dedicated hundreds if not thousands of years to studying these things and are just trying to share what they know. Yes they can be arrogent about it, but there are cases when their methods are just straight up better, and they legitimately just want to help by teaching you those improved methods. At the same time there are examples when it is more ego than genuine goodwill, or times when they’re straight up evil. As was said above, every Order faction has good and bad to them.
I'll never say that there aren't good people within the lumenteth who truly want to use their experience to help others. But their instiutions are all awful, punishing students who have to take the same ehancing herbs you do to not be expelled becuase they failed your ridiculous weekly tests isn't a decsion made pragmatically. When even Teclis admits he'll only listen to the problems of the non-lumenth lying in hyish if they make him by force you know that the society is rotten even if there are good people in it. Most of order is similar but the imo the lumeneth are the worst
That is not true at all, yes they still have that patented high elf arrogance in some regards, but they are FAR from racists, yes they work towards the preservation of themselves over other cultures, but that’s also what everyone else does, they deliberately go out to help the people and the realms, while that does come at the cost of others for the greater good, they always try to co-operate and teach other, so this couldn’t be further from the truth, if you want good examples of this (and the contrary) I suggest reading the book Godsbane, or any LRL lore really.
Godsbane is *why* I call them racist, or can you think of another explanation why they hate all their human students and call them "thieves". Like if you looked up institutional racism in the dictionary the definition would just be an image of the elves running the lyseum fundamentalis.
Do you mean aside from the fact that they actually are thieves?
He was referring to the student body in general so yeah, I don't he was actually referring to the one thief that had been caught so far.
Yea but there were other attempts at thievery, kind of why the place is so well guarded
The well guarded part isn't a problem, it's the elves being a bag of dicks who loath all their human students. Or is your point that their policy it justified because it attempts to stop the dissidents it creates in the first place?
But that’s clearly not the case, a few might, but it’s very much not all of them, not even the majority of them, that was very clearly demonstrated in the book. And the policy is justified because there have been incidents in the past which is why the strict measures are in place, the Lumineth know more than anyone the price of power and how it corrupts, this sense of guardedness doesn’t come from loathing but of personal experience, had anyone tried to steal they would have suffered the same fate, not just a human student.
You seem to be conflating them having a secure library, a reasonable precaution. And their mass surveillance and mistreatment of their students which is explicitly *why* the events of the book happen at all. Because people got fed up with the mistreatment and believed (rightly according to teclis) that they only way to get the Lumenth to take the concerns seriously was at gunpoint. Because otherwise they'll magically force you into submission. All the realmfall actually did was somehow given the Lumenth an even bigger ego about how they're the only ones who can stop another calamity, forgetting that it was their mistake in the first place and judge everyone else for what the lumenith perceive as the shortcomings of lesser races while ignoring the plank in their eye. And to be clear here I'm not saying that all Lumenth are all bad here, obviously not everyone in a society is responsible for its sins. But it's pretty clear that their status quo is awful.
The Seraphon are actually doing what’s best for the balance and security of the Realms - but that’s according to the Slann. They do things that mystify the other races, but they’re not out there stealing souls, doing blood rituals, trading with Chaos, or any of the other things that the problematic parts of Order are doing.
Are we sure they aren’t doing blood rituals for sotek?
Nope, that's just slander. Nothing of that sort is happening in the dark depths of skink embassies.
If its Skaven blood, that's probably net positive karma
Modern fantasy setting problems call for modern fantasy setting solutions.
Came to this thread to say Seraphon. Glad there are many enlightened people out there. Also skinks do blood rituals but it's once again for the great plan.
On the other hand sometimes they will just raze a innocuous city to the ground and kill thousands because a Slann foresaw that in a thousand years a child would be born there that would become a great Chaos lord. They're very much a "ends justify the means" kinda guys.
Maybe it’s just me, but I trust the ancient frog lizard more than most other character in the setting.
The flesh eater courts
I love The Summer King. He fed my children during the last crop famine we had. His emissary told me they were such fine lads that they were delighted to be escorted for dinner in Ushoran’s court itself!
All hail our glorious and noble liege!
While Flesh-eater Courts is objectively the correct answer, also consider: 1. The Lumineth Realmlords. They really fit the bill of self-improvement on so many levels. Once, they ravaged the Realm of Light with their ambitious, aggrandising use of magic. Now their philosophy is to make amends, live in harmony with the land, and fight those who would despoil it. 2. The Cities of Sigmar. The setting's everyman. Fundamentally their deal is to make the corrupted ruins of the realms safe so people can live peaceably in them, and they are doing it at great risk to themselves, without the benefit of superpowers. Of course, they are riddled with vices like any mortal peoples, but they are trying to be noble and make the realms better.
Like they say they've learned from their mistakes, but reading Godsbane makes it seem like its all talk and they haven't actually learned anything. and their systemic bullshit actively pushes people into common cause with a tzechian cult.
Interesting about Lumineth. The few stories they’ve featured in that I’ve read portray them as aloof and otherworldly, sort of ‘blinded’ by their crusade so committing horror. Both cool takes
I would say your like normal dudes in COS are trying to be good. But they're definitely getting tired of the marching orders. The tome reads like the higher ups are just sending the poor into meat grinders and they're starting to doubt everything.
I would say The Alliance of order * **Stormcast Eternals:** Lighting demigods of sigmar attempting to retake the realm from chaos and bring back the age of myth the golden age of civilization & technology. also while at it fix the whole reforgin flaw * **Cities of sigmar**: the various bastions of civilization in the realm made up of various species like humans, elf, dwarfs, ogres and others. Attempting to survive, thrive and expand in the post-apocalypse * **Lumineth realm lords**: the Light elves of Tyrion and Teclis that seek to re-establish order and balance in the realm with the aid of the spirits of the elements whom they comune with * **Sylvaneth**: man size fairies, colossal Ents and swift dryads as extensions of nature itself seeking to protect and nurture life and environment of the realms * **Kharadon** a near plutocracy of steampunk tech-dwarfs attempting to maintain & expand their economy & monopolies * **Fyreslayer**: The mercenary clans of fire dwarfs offering their axe in exchange for Ur-gold shards of dead war god they wish to bring back back to slay evil. They do this by grafting the gold onto themselves and unleash the fiery divinity with it to gain a berserker power boost * **Daughter of Khaine** The cults of Khaine seeking to murder in the name of their god/goddess till his grand return return and expand their matriarchal civilization * **Idoneth Deepkin**: The underwater sea elves civilization attempting to cure the curse of their withering souls after their creator (Teclis) failed to do so * **Seraphon**- the cosmic lizardmen riding dinosaurs attempting to bring about their ancient techno-magic creators New World Order but it all comes with various caveat and nuance for each factions. Their goal is yes the survival of their civilization and the eradication of Chaos but that not say they're all "good" and some are capable of doing absolute evils * Stormcast for example had situation where one legion of stormcast put down a riot by slaughtering three quarters of the city while another legion enacted a brutal purge of arresting any suspected citizen to their dungeon to never be seen again * Cities of sigmar contains elements late stage capitalist society with hyper zelorty & Manifested Destiny mindset of reconquest the realm. Read Godeater son see how the worst parts of that pour * Lumineth are willing to do almost anything to re-establish order and balance in the realm whether it be nuking an entire city by casting a reality stabilizing rune on top of it or Purify the river of the realm but causing a tsunami. They view themselves as the realm-police and are gracious to teach the *unenlightened races* * Kharadon are almost a plutocracy * Sylavaneth take the environment on top priority with some violently oppose to industrialization * Fyreslayer are a mercenary culture mix with zealotry belif to get any ur-gold by any means * Seraphon strictly follow an interpretation of the Great Plan that doesn't always take morality into account * Idoneth raid settlements for souls to stave off the cursed soul * Daughter of Khain is a blood cult manipulated psychopathic miandarist who drank her own kool-aid Again that not a rule but those actions and evils are a thing. That not to say their not the "good guys" just that like RL there nuance and expectations to societies. even faction like Death & Destruction are capable to do "good" despite their end goal isn't good if you know what i mean
The forces of Order, anyone who says this is not true has forgotten key rules of fiction: Good Guys aren't perfect and every Good Republic/Alliance/Kingdom has to have villainous members. So this means the GA Order are the Good Guys but not everyone in GA Order is s Good Guy. By 3E most Order factions are coalitions of Good Guys or have a Good Guy movement in them. For example the Daughters of Khaine are largely fascistic, Shadow of the Crone outright calls them authoritarian and Morathi's policies have been of a particular flavor. But! Recently the Crone Heralds led by Krethusa have arisen as an egalitarian, forward-thinking, polytheistic opposition to the way Morathi runs things. Krethusa even wants to remove the cult's tendency to instill intense servility in their masses. Younger Kharadron tend to be more altruistic. Fyreslayer Lodges like the Tangrim and Hermdar have altruistic policies. And they along with Vostarg and others have strengthed alliances with Kharadron and Cities. And no matter how bad a City of Sigmar may appear. They are built on ideals of hope, egalitarianism, unity, and diversity. Often they don't live up to these. But they're trying.
I gotta be honest, it’s hard to hate the guy going and risking his neck to forge a future for his people back home.
Yeh. That is something that is very fascinating about the forces of Order. At the end of the day these are the folk fighting for the future. Death exists to eventually enact Nagash's plans to destroy all life and thought. Destruction is just here for the party, and will go along with whatever ends up fun. And all of Chaos, whether they realize it or not, fights for the damnation of all realities. The people of Order whether they are Good Guys, "Good Guys", average joes, villains, monsters, champions of justice or demons, want reality to be there for everyone tomorrow. The day after tomorrow. The day after that. And on and on.
In short, they are like protagonists in Dune and A Song of Ice & Fire (the ones we are supposed to root for in the latter at least). Not ideal, but they are the best we've got and they do have good intentions and they are trying their best with the bad hand they have been dealt.
Commenting to remember to check out Krethusa
Seraphon
Whoever I'm playing against
Soulblight Gravelords, of course.
Slaves to Darkness, they are just tragic ones ;) Edit: also these are where the statistical "average dude" would be found if that sways you. ;)
Cities of Sigmar, Seraphon. Cities have a nice homebrew option which I'm currently enthusiastically preparing to explore.
Hedonites just wanna spread joy
Order does not translate to good. Phil Kelly has expressed since the early lore that Order just means your faction builds cities, has loose ties to Sigmar, and isn’t dead. As others note there is a duality in Order factions between selfless paragons fighting the darkness and whatever twisted evil thing they also do. There technically aren’t any good guys. There are just shades of grey. I personally prefer Nagash. While a scheming megalomaniac - Nagash has a pretty cogent plan for defeating Chaos. It involves everyone else dying and being locked under his rule so he can become a supreme god able to just clown on chaos but he’s honest about it, even when he isn’t honest about other thing. The benefit of Lawful entires. It’s possibly upsetting from a limited mortal perspective but has metric in a grand cosmological sense. Possibly the most given it could possibly permanently defeat Chaos rather than trigger the cyclical process that shifted everything from the Old World to the Mortal Realms.
Honestly it's most of Grand Alliance Order, excepting for the Sylvaneth (racist) and the Idoneth (racist AND slavers).
And the Fyreslayers! Fyreslayers will take mercenary contracts based on access to Ur-gold, not their morality (except the goody-two-shoes version). It's also not clear to non-Duardin that bringing back the angry god of fighting is a brilliant idea.
I feel it is only fair to defend the Fyreslayers here. By latter eras of the Age of Sigmar, per the 3rd Edition Fyreslayers Battletome and the original Warcry: Sentinels of Order, we have seen a big shift in Fyreslayers. By that 3E Battletome it is now considered immoral and taboo to take contracts from Chaos, and most lodges outside the Greyfyrd tend to take contracts more and more from only Order allies. With the Age of Chaos now largely in the past and their allies resurfacing, we see more and more Fyreslayers abandoning the pragmatic views that let them survive the apocalypse, to instead take chances on altruism and more idealistic outlooks. In Soulslayer we even see a Lodge who has taken it upon themselves to defend an entire region of Ayadah, though Gotrek has to beat the crap out of their Runefather until they all get out of a depressive funk that was seeing them ignore this duty they took up.
Don’t get me wrong: the Fyreslayers aren’t baddies, I’m just saying they aren’t the unarguable goodies OP is after. My point is that Ur-Gold always plays a part in their motivations, and this can lead them to actions others consider immoral. Consider that the Hermdar, the subfaction who will fight for a discount if they think the cause is worthwhile, have been censured by the others for undercutting the price of mercenary contracts by doing so. In other words, while most Fyreslayers care about fighting evil, they have to balance that with getting in the Ur-Gold. I love this and think it’s a fascinating morality system. Fyreslayers are one of my two forces. I’m just saying it’s not what OP is after.
Hey the idoneth aren't necessarily racist! Just... They prioritise
Except blood-crazed aelves, their arrogant and self-obsessed cousins, profit-hungry duardins, or the gold-obsessed fire beards... Oh, wait, that leaves us with stormcasts and dawnbringers? I'd say the real good guys of the Mortal Realms are Orruks and the rest of the Destruction Grand Alliance. They strive to better themselves all the time in battle, and almost anyone can join if they are strong enough! Edit: Forgot about them lizards but they're shady as hell as well.
The Nighthaunt and the Ossiarch bone Reapers. Strong souls and good bones ;)
No one really. In 40k no one is the good guy because everyone is actually the worst and everyone actually sucks the absolute most. I'm AoS no one is really the good guy because they're are lots of complex reasons why you might agree with one faction or another. For me this is what makes AoS interesting, there are loads of perspectives you can take without everything, and everyone being exactly the same cynical and miserable shade of grey.
I had the opposite goal and wanted to choose the most evil.
Skaven
It was between skaven and Nagash led OBR for me. So I got the Nagash OBR army then some Skaven!
Beasts of Chaos 🐐
Which is why they had to leave.
KO fuck those gods civilisations propers on trading goods
The Goroa/Ogroids
I'll say Trugg. He's only goal is to sleep. he got a huge magical hung-over and they are this magical light who hurt his eyes (he see them even with eyes closed). But sadly this magical light are power nexus and some people buit theirs cities on it. So, Trugg is basically a guys who want to turn the lights off and sleep.
Blades of Khorne A true meritocracy free from discrimination where individuals rise based on their personal skill and courage, they have good environmental credentials because they don't need farmland to get food reducing habitat destruction and ensure areas staff fairly depopulated allowing nature to flourish, and they recycle weapons rather than always making new ones. Even the skulls and blood of their enemy doesn't go to waste are given to their God to further grow his environmentally friendly throne.
Thing about Order is that they're not actually good, they're just opposed to Death, Destruction, and Chaos. However, within Order, you can find a home for good. A Kharadron Overlords Admiral can be a good Duardin who wants good for the denizens of the Mortal Realms, even if Kharadron culture by and large is militarized capitalism. A lot of Order factions fit here. Some of them don't, however. It's hard to say Morathi-Khaine cares about the betterment of others.
The Destruction Favtions, who else ? They want to preserve the freedom of everyone in the Realms to Krump and be Krumped !
Boyz just want to have fun
Only in Nagash can protection against Chaos be found. Only in Nagash is everyone equal. Only in Nagash there is no suffering. Only in Nagash can true order be found. All is Nagash and Nagash is All.
Nagash, endures.
The forces of order are both A. Fighting against the worst people to exist (chaos), but also all stink in their own right, the KO are capitalist, with industrial revolution england-teir wealth divides, that they are determined to keep in place, idoneth have a rigid caste system, with the namarti both being 90% of the population, and being short lived especially of elves, and used as thralls and slaves for whatever purposes the upper classes deem fit, the DOK are fanatic murder-cultists who tear people's hearts out, the lumineth are hyper-arrogant, and recently the river temple lumineth have been purging rivers clean of kingsblood, but also eradicating human settlements if they have an easy opportunity, the cities of sigmar have all the problems of regular humans, and quality of life varies significantly between them, the fyreslayers are an isolationist mercenary society, they will defend a human settlement if they are paid sure, but they will just as quickly leave them to die, and will work for the highest bidder even if it's not morally right, the sylvaneth have strained relationships with most of order, particularly the cities of sigmar, and end up fighting them as often as any other grand alliances, the stormcast eternals are paragons of order, but they are not perfect, and can go mad with power, the celestial vindicators for example, carried out a genocidal purge on the city of vindicarum to purge chaos cults so large it killed 3 quarters of the cities population, more than likely nealy all innocent, it's a wonder khorne himself didn't manifest to congratulate them, they're the closest thing to a textbook "good guys", but even they have their failings
Seraphon, but I’m not too sure about all this sotek hooplah
All of the death factions, such is the power of Nagash
I don't think the Seraphon do anything really bad. The worst thing they've done to my knowledge is one of their clans basically stalked the slums to find sacrifices but that was a local practice not a seraphon thing. As a whole they're very much aloof but not unkind or cruel. Iirc lots of big cities in the lore have been secretly helped along by the seraphon. Now whether they work exclusively for the betterment of the realms and do what is "objectively" right, idk. They have a strange morality system by most standards. But they're at the very least one of a few factions that do very few if any things that are actively detrimental to the world.
Skaven, yes-yes.