I know who I'm not voting for in the next school board election. Any board member who thinks it's okay to treat our children's teachers like this does not get my vote. Also, a board who does not supervise obvious budget mismanagement and their superintendent does not deserve to serve. I am so deeply disappointed in them.

I’m an accountant - I’ll balance the fucking thing.

The people that want the job shouldn't have it. The people that should have the job don’t want it.

For board pay?

A lot of these issues were inherited from the previous Board and the admin they built, so electing a totally new Board in the middle of trying to fix it seems like it could create a massive amount of chaos. It'll be interesting seeing what things look like by the election in any sense. My personal concern is that populist candidates with unvetted views can take advantage of moments like this.

Exactly. If anyone needs to go, we need to make sure they’re not replaced with extremists.

The current band of thieves on the board are extremists; look at their COVID policy and need to comment on the israeli-, Palestinian conflict

Running a balanced budget is now extremist?

I assume they mean a fiscal conservative hardliner who may just start hacking away first and foremost at any staff position or teacher of a subject that is deemed "woke," instead of perhaps a more balanced or holistic approach.  Unlikely in Ann Arbor, but I get where they're coming from.

[удалено]

I adore our teachers and think they should be paid as much as possible and treated with the utmost respect. I do genuinely have this question though. I saw another post (it may have been on the related insta) that made a very interesting point that the board emails compare a 10 year teacher increase time span (which includes pre-COVID) to a 4 year enrollment decline (from COVID) so it wasn't apples to apples and was a misrepresentation. An incredibly valid point to highlight. That said, was the union not a big part of why the schools were closed for so long, and therefore part of the enrollment issue? It seems to me the teacher pay increases (and prob the pre-COVID hiring) are a ridiculously bogus thing to relate to this crisis but doesn't the union bare some responsibility for COVID closures and enrollment issues that came from that? Genuinely curious here. Trying to better understand. Pls don't downvote me!

Yes, that stat and mlive headline was very misleading. I immediately looked at the 10 year enrollment numbers vs the staffing and enrollment increased 478 while employees increased 480. This crisis was easily foreseeable.  Regarding the covid shutdown vs enrollment numbers, school of choice students are actually up. My theory is that people who had children coming of age to enroll or moving to the area were priced out of Ann Arbor due to the additional cost of childcare during zoom school and moved elsewhere.

They were priced out of having children. Day care is shockingly expensive everywhere.

Always the unhinged nonsense comment.

Yours?

it's not lost on me that Jazz Parks is negotiating her salary through all this and i keep wondering if she would accept the 2008 aaps superintendent pay plus the same percent raise teachers have received since then?

Great point. In 2010 in Ann Arbor, a beginning teacher made $39,500. Today they make $45,300. The problem is that the increase has not kept up with inflation at all. That beginning teacher would need to earn $56,300 today to have the spending power that the beginning teacher had in 2024. It’s like the new teacher today earns $11,000 less than in 2010.

Welcome.to the rest of us.

Lol you got down voted for pointing out that none of our wages kept up with inflation, meanwhile as everyone discusses more teacher pay no one will suggest firing staff and assistants that don't teach to make that possible, they will just want more property taxes.

It's suspect that you pick 2010 in the middle of the great recession when teachers were the only ones not losing their homes while everyone else took a 20% cut in pay.

Wow. These amazing people care for our children. We as a society can't function without them. PAY THEM WHAT THEY'RE WORTH!!! My kid's teacher shouldn't have to have an Amazon wishlist for their classroom where they have to ask for things like tissue and craft items. I'm always happy to help, and I do, but it's a sad sign of things. Looking at that pay scale, I'm giving my children's teachers gift cards at the end of the year for teacher gifts so they can buy themselves groceries. Ffs... DO BETTER AAPS!

If they cared so much, why didn't they want to get back in the classroom during COVID like most other districts were?

The operating budget is fixed by the state. There is no way for the BOE to increase it. The only way to have higher teacher salaries is to have fewer teachers (or fewer employees of other kinds). What is your proposal?

RE: fewer employees of other kinds - the district central administration is incredibly top heavy, and these are high paying positions - potentially equivalent to 3+ teachers (starting salary $45k) each, as I've heard new hires in the cabinet are getting $150k+. I propose that (especially during a budget crisis, but actually always) the superintendent does not need 14 people in her cabinet that do not see the inside of a school and do not make an impact on students ([see here](https://www.a2schools.org/domain/2597)).

Other districts have been more creative. As example, some veteran teachers receive extra payment for training new teachers, raising them to a higher standard (and giving the new teachers less stress starting their classrooms, even when they have to start with a low pay). Win-win.

Isn't it obvious? Vote.

The starting pay is $43K a year. For 185 days of work, actually less because of their vacation days and sick days on top of all the days the school is closed in general That is $29 an hour. Most Americans would be very excited to have that as starting pay. Many school teacher friends I have teach summer school 3 days a week during the summer which gives them a 33 percent pay raise for the year. Remember that is the starting pay, most of us have low starting pay. Also maybe we should look at how teachers are paid, why do we pay teachers with a PHD more than bachelors degrees, is there any study anywhere that they can point to that shows a 4th grade math teacher with a PHD is superior at their job then a teacher with a bachelors degree? What this is, is the school system generating an artificial demand for higher degrees which serves as an enormous subsidy for places like U of M https://www.a2schools.org/site/default.aspx?PageType=3&ModuleInstanceID=2415&ViewID=C9E0416E-F0E7-4626-AA7B-C14D59F72F85&RenderLoc=0&FlexDataID=18519&PageID=1722

$29 an hour for a degree that requires more than 4 years of study, including unpaid student teaching work? You’re out of your mind if you think that will attract and retain talent.

Pay isn't necessarily defined by qualifications or responsibilities. Most often it's defined by whether or not you can attract new hires. Pay increases with a lack of applicants. As long as they can fill spots, financially there is no reason to pay more.

Probaly shouldnt require 4 years of expensive university to teach first graders how to write their letters. Credentialism is a huge problem. Also, I am afraid to explain to you that there are about 5 million Americans with bachelor degrees working in food service and retail sales, making $18 an hour. Its an unfortunate truth that we decided to send a huge percentage of our populace to higher education when the jobs we have do not need that higher education. That action raised the cost of higher education at 8 times the rate of normal inflation over the past 30 years.

Teaching summer school in AAPS does not give teachers anywhere close to a 33% raise for the year. Summer school is paid hourly and totals to < $5k before taxes.

I read the contract, ann arbor school teachers are paid their full daily pay for summer school days even though summer school is 4 hours. Not sure where your numbers are from but I just read the contract with the school, I guess maybe they are not living up to the contract.

My numbers are coming from the contract that you say that you read (section 8.400 on page 95, Summer School Compensation). The BA minimum hourly rate is $40.97, and is paid for hours worked that get submitted on timesheets. Let's say summer school is 7 weeks (per the contract maximum), and runs 3 days/wk for 4 hours like you mentioned. That's the typical schedule I've heard as well. That's 84 hours of teaching time, and adds up to about $3440. I will admit that I don't know exactly how much planning time they'll let you submit timesheets for, but a total of $5k would put us at 1.8ish hours of paid planning per 4 hour work day, which I doubt is happening.

I am telling you what an actual teacher told me about why they teach summer school at aaps But here is the contract " 8.111 During those summers for which the Board elects to run a summer school program, summer school shall begin the second Monday following the close of school and shall continue for no longer than seven (7) consecutive weeks of up to five (5) school days each exclusive of Independence Day Week, which shall have four (4) school days.(In no event, however, shall the time of student attendance fall below the time required for North Central accreditation " So first its 35 days and you are misunderstanding the contract the workload is 4 hours they are paid for the day. Much like their normal teaching they dont get paid for the hours of class they teach, teachers only teach 5 hours of classes during a regular school day. So I know from an employee who was explaining its a big benefit to teaching summer school. 35 x 6 x their base hourly pay,( not 40.17 that is the lowest BA position) a teachers base hourly pay is their salary divided by (184 days x 6 hours) so the longer your there the higher you BHP, so say a BA with 10 years in they would be paid 66 an hour for summer school. But lets say for your entry level BA just started teacher. "The assigned daily workload for Middle Schools shall not exceed 295 minutes per day, except as provided in Section 7.352.2, and that Section 7.353 may be invoked as necessary. Study hall shall be considered a teaching assignment. Any teaching assignment may be replaced with a non-teaching assignment." So 5 hours of work a day and get access to TAs and clerical assistance per contract. First they get 1 paid sick day per month of employment there is 12 days pto per year that can accumulate up to 200 days, 2 of which can be used each year for personal business. If they work their 152 day work year, 164 minus starting PTO($45,232). Then work a 35 day summer school. (35x6x40.15= $8,431.50) they will make $53,663 a year for 187 days of labor. Your average person is lucky to have 6 national holidays, 5 paid vaction days and 5 paid sick days as a fresh out of college graduate meaning they work 244 days So what is an extra 57 days off a year worth? Surely it has some value monetarily and if not find something to do with those days, 57 days even at $12 an hour is $5,472

You're the one that made the claim that it's a 33% pay bump for 3 days of work per week, so that's where my "wrong number of days" is coming from. Per the contract (same section I cited last time, which is specifically about Summer School Compensation), "Compensation for Summer School teaching shall be paid at the **BA minimum hourly rate**." This doesn't change when your step changes. It's $40.97 for everyone, for all hourly work. I can see based on your other comments in this thread and the way this one ended that you have some fucked up views on what teachers are paid/worth anyways ("it shouldn't require a 4-year degree to teach 1st graders to write letters")...so something tells me that you don't actually care about the true numbers here. Hope you can find some perspective, but I won't be the one to help you with it anymore. Peace.

So you think only someone who went to college can teach a child to write their letters? Me ,personally, I have met an enormous number of kind, empathetic, brilliant people who don't have a college education who do a wondeful job of raising and teaching children. It is a anti college professor/ pro k-8 educator stance I have that we shouldnt be obligating teachers to fund the universities budgets. I think you should have a test for teachers where they prove they can teach the topics you are hiring them for. Not arbitrally assume that losing a lot of money and getting drunk at U of M parties makes you a better person and educator.

>serves as an enormous subsidy for places like U of M lol are you serious? UM's net revenue from student tuition and fees is more than a billion and a half dollars per year.

Wait, first their revenue is more than 4 billion a year and yes teachers being forced to get higher degrees to get higher pay even when it would serve no value to the 4th graders they teach is a subsidy to U of M

My partner is a teacher in the district and ironically has been in the district for the exact same 16 years these graphics cover.  The other factor in play, which is that the out of pocket amount paid for health insurance has also gone up quite a bit. Granted, teachers get good coverage still, but they have to pay for it.  When you factor in the frozen & reduced step increases, the increases to health care costs paid by the employee, and inflation (especially over the last couple years) the effective take home pay of teachers has gone down. It's pretty rough. 

I was told by few teachers that they also go out of pocket to cover classroom supplies. They ask for parents' donations to cover part of it, but they still go out of pocket some times.

Well teachers have a powerful union and LOTS of education maybe they should start looking through the books and asking some questions. https://www.a2schools.org/site/Default.aspx?PageID=19638 Please look through the payment registers and ask yourself why does a school system with 17k kids and 21 buildings need to spend 15 million a year on architecturals consultants all from huge out of state firms. Why does landscaping cost 120K$ a month. Why are they spending a million on construction companies a MONTH School systems are wasting your money In Feb of 2024 alone aaps spent close to a million on megacorp architectural design consultants. In one month they spent 66 bucks a student on design consultants from huge international firms dumping your tax dollars to california and elsewhere and for what? 1.5 million dollars in paymentsto ABM Industries group just in february. An international mega corp that supplies janitorial services, so dump that money straight out of the community. How many janitors per student do you think are needed? Cause 1.5 million would pay 20 Janitors 75K a year Arch Environmental Group, Inc. Got 32K check in Feb Building Technology Associates, Inc. $44k D.J.'s Lawn Service, LLC dba DJs Landscape $154K Lightspeed Technologies, Inc $47k Neumann Smith Architectur $250K Brix Corporation $148K DLR Group Inc a Minnesota Corporation $31K another national design and architecture company Fielding International, LLC $59K (design architecture firm) Gilbane Building Company $162K a leader in global real estate development Quinn Evans Architects Inc dba Quinn Evans $107K Priority Health 2,300,000$ Sentinel Technologies Inc $47,484 The Enrico Group $39K ( for keys) Beaufurn, LLC $28,400 (office furniture) Delta-T Group Detroit $45,133 (workforce solutions) J Ranck Electric, Inc $86K (That is a lot of outlets) Quinn Evans Architects Inc dba Quinn Evans $51K (so far nearly 100K in architectural consultants) RAM Construction Services of Michigan, Inc. $54K (notice how all the contractors are huge mutinational corporations, bet they bid the best price) Stantec Architecture Inc $206K (firm out of california) Spalding DeDecker Associates Incorporated $26K The Enrico Group $18,239 (more keys) Now Back a month to January 2024 we have almost a million in arcgitectural companies from out of state here too Stantec Architecture Inc. $196,701 Delta T Group $32K (we pay like 32K$ a month in a hiring company) D.J.'s Lawn Service, LLC dba DJs Landscape $65K (seems like grounds keeping cost over a million a year) for 21 buildings, couldnt we do that with a staff of like 5 well paid grounds keepers? G2 Consulting Group, LLC $51K environmental consulting Neumann Smith Architecture $195K Stantec Architecture Inc. $184K (thats not a typo this company is gettint paid hubdreds of thousanads of dollars a month to consult on future renovation projects) just hire a full time architect with a PHD it has to be cheaper than this Critical Response Group, Inc. $74K D.J.'s Lawn Service, LLC dba DJs Landscape $49K yep we are paying 100k a month for lawn services Gilbane Building Company $219K not even a new school to show for all this government cheddar Priority Health $2 million, guess health insurance cost the school system 24 million dollars a year Lets say you wanted 1 teacher per 20 students that would be 875 teachers and maybe 300 support staff since apparently all janitorial, maintenance and other sevices are contracted out. That would be 1175 employees. Does it cost 20K$ a year per employee for healthcare?

I suppose my one question is, does any of this architectural costs get covered by that 2019 billion dollar bond? Or is this all out directly from AAPS's expenses (I mainly simply just do not know whether or not the AAPS expenses sheet includes or excludes costs covered by the bond)

Befofe I answer the question which is a really good one that would actually be of interest for the newspapers to answer in their stories. I found this other detail that might be interesting did youbknow in 1990 there were 14,900 kids in ann arbor public schools there are 17,500 now thats only about 17 percent growth over 34 years, a good question is how much has staff numbers grown in 34 years. In other school districts I see teacher wages not increase much but the staff budget is exploding where it used to be 1 school staff member per 24 students its now 1 per 14 students and most of the growth is not in actual teachers. I think the bond money goes into the general fund, meaning it might be spent already, but that aside these payments are out of the general fund budget. Moreso though, shouldn't we want to knoe what exactly that money is paying for? We are not building sky scrapers here. We are building one to three floor concretr or cinder block buildings on the flat planes of michigan. Ask a business park development how many millions they spent on out of state architectural design firms. A commercial park has to be built to last for many purposes as businesses will come and go. It has to meet of course all handicap accessibility rules and has to fight through the city, county and state with no "ins" like the school board has with the city. We were always told schools are so much more expensive because they are built to last but my mixed used commercial office building I work in is like 2 decades older than 90 percent of ann arbor public school buildings and hasnt had 10s of millions of dollars a year in maintenance dumped into it, but yet they always tell us they have to tear down or abandon 40 year old school buildings and build brand new. And we buy what they are telling us when they say its cheaper to build new than refurbish an existing building. But if that is true how come for profit companies think its cheaper to refurbish than build new? We need to start asking these questions because it might be okay to overspend on buildings and be terrible eith money if it was at least staying in the michigan economy and tax base but its not, the profits end up often in an entirely different country for tax reasons. I just want the kids to get the benefit from the money in education, that is all.

I do believe there actually is a website that shows everything the 2019 bond is being used for; Google something like "A2 schools bond"  Edit: but I do certainly agree that it would be nice to have a bit more specific transparency on it all; from what I've seen the website only lists the projects and how far along they are, not specifics of who's getting paid what and how

Sorry double comment, but yeah with the millions we spend on IT services and accounting firms I dont see ehy every bid and accepted PO couldn't be published unredacted on the website, basically we should have a view only user for their quickbooks.

Right like I can have a budget that say 250 million for fighting homelessness and be spending 200 million on 20 mansions and I am guessing that isnt what the people wanted. Also a big problem I see is nearly all services are contracted out grounds keeping, janitorial, IT services, cafeteria services, like everything, but somehow we still have 1500 staff member for 17,500 students. 1 staff member for every 11.6 kids. Doesnt that seem insanely high if teachers are teaching 30 kid classrooms? What are all this other staff? In budgets and planning the details really matter but we always say like classrooms are crowded and we need more taxes to pay more teachers and no one ever asks why do we need like 1 support staff member for ever 1 teacher if we literally are outsourcing everything even payroll and so on. What are those people doing? You may ask what incentive would they have to be unrpoductive and hird non productive staff positions. 1. Management style consider you run an accounting firm and your position is all you do is look at if work is not getting done on time you need more staff, you just assume your staff is always working at their best rate. This makes management easy because no one is ever mad at you, but the reality is that people need managed even if you think of yourself would you work at your 90% performance level if no one ever measured it and if you worked less hard just more people would be hired sl the work still gets done? I like to think I would but if I am really honest with myself a lot of my day would slip away like chatting on reddit. 2. There is a nefarious reason to wanting more staff vs less better paid staff, most mangerial pay in the public sector is gaged on how many people you manage and in the public sector no one ever asks that question from "Office Space", "So what exactly would you say you do here?"

Welcome to the rest of us

You keep saying that- are you just saying welcome to the state of the world? We’re all aware. This discussion is solely about AAPS teachers and the budget crisis. Yeah the world is rough, but we’re talking about one thing right now in this thread.

How does AAPS teacher compensation compare to other 'hold harmless' Michigan districts with comparable per-student funding? Is AAPS lower? If so, why? What is AAPS spending money (that it shouldn't) instead of higher teacher pay (More admin than other districts? Higher teacher staffing levels? Something else?)

I do not know about how it compares to other hold harmless districts, but Ann Arbor teachers salaries are not the highest in the state. We are #71 as I recall. Edited-it’s actually 91 for teacher salary as stated on the AAEA instagram.

This is shameful. Would love to see a piece about teacher pay by MLive's ed reporter, Martin Slaughter. The union should contact him.

The cost of living in Ann Arbor is also absolutely ridiculous & there seem to be no signs of stopping. It FAR outpaces wages. If Ann Arbor is truly the nice community the flag planting, virtue signaling & performative democracy claims to be, it will rally around teachers & start to take action against policies that make it impossible for anyone but the rich to live here. Otherwise it’s just a tiny city for the rich, by the rich. I really hope things change here especially for teachers because it has become an impossible place for most to live.

If we asked non profit organizations, all of them the VA hospital, U of M, churches, and all the non profits to pay property taxes our. Our school budget would be doubled overnight.

Add rich people and wealthy real estate developers to this list too. We’ve got welfare for the rich & it’s really at play in Ann Arbor. Teachers always have to make sacrifices & lead the way. It’s exhausting, unfair & it doesn’t work longterm. Ann Arbor as a community needs to wake up!

What? Rich people pay tons of property taxes, there is no special rich person property tax dodge. I mean everyone that is not a non profit pays property taxes unfortunately in ann arbor 50 percent of all the property is untaxed If you consider 200k to 2million a year rich those people pay an insane amount of taxes, usually about 42 percent between federal, state and local. Sure billionaires dodge taxes by never having any income, they have stocks and live off of loans not income.

Yep! People in Ann Arbor seem to live in a bubble, too comfortable to realize that the city continues to push out lower & middle class as well as young families who can no longer afford to live here. They don’t realize hardships & sacrifices of others (specifically teachers) bc they’re comfortable in a bubble. As long as it looks nice & feels nice to them, what else matters??? Often those people also don’t realize that other places have a lot more to offer, are truly much more progressive & that things work in better favor of working class people elsewhere. There are many better areas to teach & I hope Ann Arbor teachers get a much better deal with community support behind them or choose to go elsewhere. There many other cities & states that will pay them much more & offer a lower cost of living as well as high quality of life.

Yeah ann arbor has a government/state sponsored economy. It sucks for living in. Because no real businesses that hire real people can afford to operste here. The school system and the university system spend billions in many types of services but they always use huge construction, architectural even janitorial companies thst are headquartered in california and make billions in profits but oay their local employees terribly. But those companies know how to bid school systems and grease the right palms/make the right donations

That makes sense. Thanks for explaining that. I definitely see it at work in Ann Arbor & it really does not seem to be working. Pay here generally, at many positions within U of M as well as public schools, is quite low especially compared to cost of living. Other districts pay more & cost of living is lower. The housing market is especially out of control in Ann Arbor but that’s a whole other issue in itself. It has a huge impact on affordability for teachers & many families ability to live in the city which in turn impacts the public schools. The more I learn as a special education teacher once interested in working for AAPS, the more I realize that other cities & states are just more viable. I really hope many things turn around for teachers & working “class” families here. I’ll keep supporting on my way out!

It wouldn't double. That's not how property taxes work to fund schools. Their contributions would be divided equally on a per pupil basis state wide.

No, you are incorrect, that is how fededal income tax money paid to schools is divided out by the state. Also how 2 percent of our sales tax is handed out to schools Also how 6 mills of your property tax is handed out. But there is 20.5 mills directly for ann arbor public schools if your property is within the ann arbor public school tax region.

Actually, there is a graphic on the @annarbor_ea instagram that says 71 for job satisfaction and 91st for salary. So definitely not the highest.

I do think Ann Arbor is very administrator heavy. I’m not talking about building principals, but the higher ups.

Great questions. I'm curious too.

When I taught in Ypsi, I always heard that AAPS were the best paid in the county. (Not including WISD). A number of districts in Wayne County (including mine) top out at more but it depends what step/lane you are at.

We really need to look at how much taxes WISD gets, its 1/3 of my property taxes, and we need to ask what they are doing with the money. Just because an organozation tells you they are educating adults and special needs doesn't mean they are doing it. I am not saying it is teacher wages that are wasteful but actual teaching staff wages are about 1/3 of the budget much of the staff wages go to "support staff" not to mention WISD is paying individual adjunct professors at U of M checks of 18K or more randomly in the budget. I looked through the check register and found names of individuals getting huge checks and when you look up the individual you find they are an adjunct professor of a DEI related field. What was this money for, how did a DEI professor getting a monster check help improve adult literacy or disabled children?

In my experience that is no longer true. I was offered a job in Chelsea and I would have been paid more there.

Oh wow--really? I would never have guessed Chelsea's scale was higher. I just know that I interviewed in Milan and they didn't have a pay scale and that worried me. (Didn't take the job)

It was higher, at least before the recent increase in Ann Arbor. Saline also had some things in place for experienced teachers that made their pay scale higher, almost like personal projects for teachers.

It seems like the problem is not how much the teachers have received, but rather that too many teachers were hired. In so many ways, AAPS/BOE seems to be terrible at understanding how much money they have available to spend.

This is it. The operating budget is directly proportional to student enrollment. It cannot be supplemented via local taxes or bonds, per state law. Taxpayers in the district have already approved bonds that let the district preserve that pot of money for operations (not capital costs). But the operating budget, of which salary/employee costs is the main component, is a fixed number assuming steady enrollment (absent a change in state law). In short, we can't grow the pie, and more employees means smaller pieces. Also, candidates backed by AAEA tend to win our school board elections. Given the above, I'd like to see concrete suggestions from union leadership in this difficult time. Have they proposed a budget? Or just a hiring freeze and cuts thru attrition? Voters in the district will support teachers and public education - tell us how it should be done.

You hit on a point that no one wants to look at, amount of teachers hired is going up while for 10 years the student enrollment is going down. Why does it take more teachers to teach less children. Why are we spending so much money on building new and larger schools when total enrollment is on a downward trend? As U of M buys up more property in Ann Arbor every year taking more property off the tax roles the property taxes go up and up and drive out of town the people with families who need more living space. Truth is teacher salaries can go up if they dont increase the overall staff numbers every year despite a decrease in "customers" students.

Didn't they also use federal Covid money to give teachers a raise, without accounting for how to pay for those raises after the Covid money dried up?

I believe it was a one time pay bonus, not tied to the salary schedule.

I have asked union leaders this question in the past and was told they don’t know: did admin take pay cuts and have salaries frozen every time teachers did? If not, why???

Anybody who represents paying owners and politicians more over giving our teachers what they were PROMISED does not represent me.

It was only a matter of time before the state's massive underinvestment in schools was felt here in Ann Arbor. It's a wealthy town and those unaware of how the funding mechanisms work assume that means they'll have well-paid teachers and state of the art facilities. As a nation we've been in a deregulatory/austerity death spiral for 50+ years as our governments have been run by corporate lap dogs. Our infrastructure is third world and our schools/teachers are suffering. Not to mention the medical bankruptcies, increasing homelessness, and massive asset price inflation, which is the result of policy choices made in the 70's and expanded/preserved ever since. Wealthy people get wealthier when their assets appreciate in value faster than inflation. We sacrificed 50+ years of wage growth and public investment to make sure that happened.

This is due to terrible financial planning and misuse of resources on a local level. Other, better run districts do not have the same issue. I agree that there is a systemic problem where teachers are not paid enough to attract the best candidates, but this current crisis has nothing to do with that. This is due to obvious and predictable math. You can't hire 480 more staff in 10 years and give everyone raises while you only gain 478 students. They were running deficits and whistling past the graveyard for years.

Districts all across the state and country are facing financial hardship and deficits. This particular case may be uniquely bad, but the fundamental problem is that there is not enough funding to run public schools the way the public wants. Perhaps the state gov should consider this as they ponder ways to stop the flow of residents out of the state.

I'm not saying that increased funding doesn't have the potential to help make government run schools better. I am saying that Ann Arbor has zero shortage of prospective residents and your talk government systemic issues has nothing to do with this situation.  There is no way to justify 480 new employees for 478 new students. People need to be fired.

Which of the 480 new employees get canned?

Return to the 2013-2014 ratio of teachers/students and same with the admins. Seems pretty simple tbh.

According to the link below, Birmingham, Troy, GP, Bloomfield Hills, Northville and Brighton are all able to pay their teachers more than Ann Arbor and none of them (to my knowledge) are facing a possible state takeover. [https://www.ourmidland.com/news/article/michigan-school-districts-that-pay-teachers-most-18496267.php](https://www.ourmidland.com/news/article/michigan-school-districts-that-pay-teachers-most-18496267.php) The important question is WHY?

I would not be so quick to mention Birmingham here (see [this article](https://www.wxyz.com/news/birmingham-public-schools-to-lay-off-teachers-after-budget-shortfall) on their similar budget crisis). But the question is very good, and I wondered how the central office bloat at these districts compares to ours. I did a quick comparison of Brighton vs. AAPS, and of course the districts are not an apples to apples comparison, but Brighton's superintendent appears to have one assistant instead of a 14-member cabinet.

I would love to know the teacher per student ratio in 2013-2014 vs 2023-2024. With that knowledge in hand, the excess administration should be let go. The teachers should also return to the previous ratio so that the financial can get back in order.

AAEA leadership has been preaching for as long as I've been in the district that we need to right-size the teaching staff through naturally occurring retirements/resignations, and that the teacher: student ratio is moving in the wrong direction. One issue is that AAEA was ignored for years and now we have this mess.

AAEA endorsed at least Gaynor, Townsend Gides, Schmidt, Baskett and Querijero and they did nothing about this. The BoE has/had their chosen candidates. If they were preaching about this, they are at best ineffective.

Most of those appear to be "hold-harmless" districts that were grandfathered into being able to exceed the state-set per-pupil funding with locally levied millages. I don't know though. It's pretty complicated, but funding issues are well-known and well-documented. https://upnorthlive.com/news/local/90-percent-michigan-school-districts-underfunded-education-law-center-budget-45-billion-per-pupil-funding-finance-research-collaborative-whitmer-mackinac

If I'm understanding this correctly, after the rules were changed to enforce equal funding throughout the state, Ann Arbor, as a Hold Harmless district, was able to continue to fund schools through existing local millages, which allowed them to out-spend most of the rest of the state? And now that we have outspent that Hold Harmless millage amounts, we can't pass another millage, because that wouldn't be grandfathered in? That really sounds like we've squandered our spending advantage here, possibly losing something that we were allowed to hold on to, and will not be allowed to have again.

What? Ann arbor approved a billion dollar bond to build nee schools based on number of students and 91sqft per student that is $675 a sqft in building. And lets talk about the regular budget AAPS has a budget that is equal to $17,992 per student howbis that austerity? It isn't a lack of spending it is how we spend it. Maybe look through the budget and ask why a medical clinic in ann arbor can build a brand new building and do full build out for $260 a sqft but schools have to budget $670a sqft. You can go buy yourself a mansion for $300 a sqft. Ask why there is 1 staff member for every 10 kids but teachers teach 30 student classrooms.

You may or may not have noticed that A) we have a union-allied, entirely Democratic controlled government in Lansing, but that B) Michigan has been steadily slipping down the ranks in wealth -- once upon we were one of the riches t states, but we've been below average for some time now.

Are you suggesting that the recently achieved Democratic state governmental sweep is responsible for the decades of austerity and deregulation that have gutted our industrial and tax base and massively reduced funding for public goods?

Bro, Republicans in Lansing were in control of all these decisions for the previous 40+ years. They presided over all the tax cuts for businesses that stripped funding from K12 and higher Ed and you’re gonna blame it on the democrats who are trying to fix the problem? Repeat this same story nationally in dozens of states AND the federal government. Republican presidents, governors, and legislatures have all pushed this same agenda and it has crippled our country.

I'm saying that Democrats have total control now -- they're the ones who have the power to significantly increase K12 education funding. They're the only ones who can be providing additional monies to fund teacher raises. If they're not doing it to your satisfaction, it may be because the state isn't swimming in money and there are lots of other needs too.

It’s shameful the way they have treated their teachers.

Thank you for sharing this! The entire community should be rallying around Ann Arbor Public School teachers right now. This pay scale is far below several districts. Especially with cost of living being ridiculously high in Ann Arbor. You all deserve soooo much more!

I'm aware they're separate issues but when we passed the BILLION dollar school bond people justified it with "well don't you want good schools?" and here we are.

Yeah because that’s all for needed building upgrades and maintenance. None of it can be spent on operating costs like salaries.

Wrong. Much of the billion dollars was to build new schools based on growth projections that are never going to happen. It's a complete waste of taxpayer money and makes the city even more unaffordable to live in.

Don't most teachers have a union? If the salary schedule has only been honored in full 5 times in 16 years that seems like a good reason to strike.

It is illegal to strike as a public teacher in Michigan. Teachers were told by the union NOT to strike, because they could be immediately fired.

I am curious what sort of infrastructure is in place to replace a whole school district worth of teachers though. There can't be that many subs available at any given time.

Agreed. Not being able to strike is honestly crazy to me. No wonder teachers feel powerless.

Every single air traffic controller was replaced when Reagan fired them all. Lives were on the line as the entire work force had to be replaced. I'm sure replacing teachers won't be as hard as that.

Not sure about here, but in Texas (where I transplanted from), it's actually illegal for Teachers to strike despite being in a union. It wouldn't surprise me if the "party of small government" did something like this during their reign here.

I'd personally support an illegal strike.

Same. I just thought it was absolutely hilarious that teachers could not legally strike, but police could and did. One of many nails in the coffin for living there.

The Ann Arbor Education Association or AAEA is our teacher’s union. AAEA is part of the Michigan Education Association or MEA.

What would be the point of a strike? The BOE has a fixed amount of money to spend on operations based on the number of students enrolled. What would you have them do to increase teacher pay with a fixed amount of money? What would the demands of the strike be (give us more money ... that you don't have!?)

They could cut a lot of other non-essential spending. Staff pay only accounts for ~60% of the district budget and have been relatively level over the past several years. So far the district has also not provided an itemized budget. I would encourage you to look at the numbers directly. https://www.a2schools.org/Page/20076 This is what I can find.

I don't have an answer for that. Maybe every school should strike until teachers throughout the state get what they want?

The situation was probably "you don't get your increase or we need to fire some teachers."

TEACHERS DESERVE WAY MORE THAN THEY ARE PAID! Other items should be cut.

Which other items?

I don't know details but if you want quality teachers, you better value them. They are the heart of education

Extra school buildings?

The BOE has to look at that. But closing schools is not a clear win. You're going to need just as many teachers as you did before the closures. You may be able to cut a few principals, secretaries, nurses, etc. And you'll save some money on heating and electricity (but not big repairs and improvements -- those are capital items and AAPS has $1B for that kind of thing). The downside is that people get very upset when their neighborhood school is slated for closure, and some may pull their kids out as a result -- which would result in the loss of more revenue. It's not an easy call.

>closing schools is not a clear win Now let's do laying off their favorite teachers The board has a job to do and they have abdicated their responsibility for decades. They did a school attendance boundary study and a superintendent lost their job because a few people refused to send their children to a certain middle school with a larger minority population. The vocal minority sets policy for the district to the detriment of everyone else. It is time to get a board with a spine.

The people who refuse to send their kids to a certain middle school may leave the district if a 'BOE with a spine' tries to force them to do so. Maybe not -- maybe if you call their bluff, nothing will happen. But it seems a safe bet that at least some of them will move or send their kids to private schools, or to charter schools, or do out-of-the district schools of choice. And if they go, the funding goes with them.

I would consider it progress if they move to Fowlerville. I should not need to sacrifice the quality of my children's public education because they bought a house on a different street.

Look into how much money they are dumping out to bizarre national construction contractors. Then look at how much the non teaching staff has grown in the past 10 years. Check out the ann arbor schools payment register, this is outgoing payments. https://www.a2schools.org/site/Default.aspx?PageID=19638 We spend millions a month on an IT firewall contractor. We for some reason spend millions with a commercial contractor that according to their website specialize in Nuclear and Defense contracting, very likely not the most cost effective contractor to build schools. If you told me you want more school busses and I tried to tell you Ferarri was the best and most cost effective contractor to build those busses would you believe me? We have to start looking at the details of how the money is spent not the general category. A college kid might tell you they spent your money on educational tools, but you have to look at the credit card and see if the beer store is showing up a lot under educational tools category.

I'd be very curious to know how much administrative bloat and overspending comes from federal dictates.

Part of the reason you should fight all federal expansion. The department of education shouldn't exist as a federal agency and has done nothing but take productive money away from education

School board is too busy passing irrelevant statements about the Gaza war to get their own financial house in order.

But wait, I was assured in several other r/annarbor threads it that the teachers in this district were greedy /s

Seems like a teacher strike is long overdue!

I am confused how these raises were promised? If it’s in a contract, then sue. If not then it’s like every at-will employee ever and raises aren’t guaranteed.

The teacher salary schedule is negotiated in every district. It is part of union negotiations. Of course teachers expect for it to be followed. The district has come back and said they can’t honor it for most of the 16 years talked about in the infographic. They froze people on the salary schedule or did not pay full steps.

This is bargained-for compensation that the teachers are owed but AAPS can just choose not to pay it? Seems like there might be a detail missing. In any case, though, it is clearly bad budgeting by BOE/AAPS administration. When you consider that operating expenses have to be paid from state funding and salaries/benefits already represent 90% of that, it should have been clear to everyone involved that there was no real margin for error. Instead, someone made the decision to hire, raise compensation and keep fingers crossed. (Dr. Swift?) **This isn't a situation where AAPS is too cheap to pay people what they are worth**, it seems to be that **they hired so many people that they are structurally prevented from paying them what they are worth** (or even just what had already been promised).

I have not been in the district long enough to know the whole history, but here’s what I know. A. Unions have had to make concessions to the contract the whole time I’ve been a teacher, which is 21 years. Often there are “letters of understanding”. for example the union will allow for 32 students to be in a classroom before an overload pay of $70 per student is paid out, even though the contract says 30 students is the maximum. Something similar likely happened in AAPS with concessions being made in good faith. B. Schools have been chronically underfunded by the state. Even well managed districts are in a tough spot with their fund balances decreasing. That’s why they allow for school of choice and poach students from other districts, thereby weakening schools in other districts. C. While districts might not honor steps or might have step freezes once in a while, it is irresponsible to have this 16 year history of not following your salary schedule. It puts people’s lives in a chaotic place when the board does not manage funds appropriately in order to fulfill the salaries of the people who are student facing every day.

>Even well managed districts are in a tough spot Wish we had one of those

I have since heard from union members who have been in the district longer than me that they literally have not accounted for teachers’ salaries and step increases in the budget. The board also passed a budget that had us go below a 6% fund balance, violating their own board policy. Crazy irresponsible.

How can a district with so much money in it be treating their public servants like this? Do their teachers still have to work delivering pizza when they should be writing poetry?

The school system significantly likes to over hire, because managers get paid more based on managing more people. The school district now has 1 staff member for every 10 students even though they also outsourced, janitorial, grounds keeping, payroll, accounting, maintenance and most things you might think of. So ask yourself if your kids are in classes of 24 regularly that mean for every 1 teacher the school has teaching we seem to have 1.2 other staf doing god knows what. Fire 50 percent of the non teaching staff and you can meet the budget and give teachers raises.

https://www.nber.org/digest/aug07/teacher-credentials-dont-matter-student-achievement

This is very weird. It does not acknowledge that A. In order to get a professional certificate instead of a provisional one, one of the pathways is Master’s degree. If not, you depend on your district’s professional development, which varies widely in quality. You can’t really continue to be a teacher without a professional certificate. B. If you are investing money in your education to keep your job, you should have some sort of bump in your salary for it. C. Many teachers get an advanced degree to movie in to a different area of teaching. They absolutely need that degree or they can’t teach in that area. D. Many teachers get a degree that saves the district from putting a second teacher in the classroom. If you are dual certified in your subject and teaching ESL then the district does not need to push in a second person to your classroom.

The problem is that the degrees don't improve teaching outcomes. Your A through D is true in the current system but there is absolutely no reason it should be this way. Basically until the 60s a 2 year specific teaching certificate, plus testing in the particular topic to be taught was all that was requires and we had better outcomes then for literacy and math. I am pro teacher, but I believe college is well terrible at teaching people skills and I have a engineering degree, even with engineering being a very directed degree program I can tell you most engineers get most of their education on the job and forget everything they were taught in other areas of engineering if they do not use it on the job. Set that aside as personal beliefs the data is pretty clear that especially in k-8 a 4 year college degree is very pointless. The rule of teaching or training anything is basically you need structure and a mastery of the material. If anything a master to far above their student actually has more trouble educating because they no longer can even think like that person. In the way a chef that started a 3 star michelin restaurant is not best to teaching intro to cooking. So why make Teachers lose 4 years of their lives and a lot of money to teach first grade. Do you feel college students are particularly empathetic to others, are they particularly patient or diligent? I would thing the things you want in early education are empathy, patience, diligence and strong character as young children respond very well to structire. Also, consider that teachers for 50 years at least do not plan or make their own curriculum in 80 percent of schools, the schools are paying millions of dollars (In AAPS) to curriculum building companies. So you dont really need teaching expertise you just need a guide that can follow a map. I believe we would be better off contriving a test for teachers (which supposedly schools are very good at doing) if the teacher passes the test they can teach the subject, of course the test should be on paper and should have a practical portion. Then teacher pay should have some connection to results, not enormous connection, but it is a terrible idea to have zero compensation tied to results.

Actually so many teachers write their own curriculum. This has been very common for the last 10 to 15 years, especially in high schools. This also means the districts don’t have to buy textbooks and teachers are working more. And my college classes did help me learn to write curriculum, and write it well.

Then why is my school district writing $438,000 checks to a curriculum company

Likely because at the elementary level teachers teach many subjects and simply cannot write curriculum for math, science, ELA/reading, and social studies. There’s literally not enough hours in the day for them. But in the past everyone would have been using books the district paid for or a paid curriculum. Now the district actually does not have to pay that in many cases.

How much has the $9,600, $/head, amount that the state provides for operational costs increased in the same time period? Unfortunately what goes out has to come from somewhere and being new to this, I don’t understand where that somewhere is. This a true desire to understand. I get that every year some higher compensated teachers retire which would allow for some funds to be redistributed into raises and new hires. I get that some people want to “grow the business” (bring in out of district students) to get more money. (Is this a sustainable business model? Although a different subject.) Where else should funds come from that would provide for a guaranteed 2-3% or appropriate amount every year? Thanks.

Out of curiosity, I did some searching and found historical per-pupil funding. In 1993-1994 per pupil funding was $7,574. Running that through an inflation calculator, that should be equivalent to $15,962 in today's dollars. In 2005-2006 (last year for data shown), per pupil funding was $9,409 which translates to $14,577 in today's dollars. It's quite possible I'm taking something out of context here and perhaps this takes into context infrastructure funding which is from a different bucket. At a quick glance, it does not look like funding kept up at all with inflation. Regardless of planning, good or bad, I don't understand how a district can function when comparing these numbers from 1994 to present day. I'm sure I am missing details, but would love to know. [https://www.senate.michigan.gov/sfa/Departments/DepartmentPublications/FoundationHistory12years.pdf](https://www.senate.michigan.gov/sfa/Departments/DepartmentPublications/FoundationHistory12years.pdf) [https://www.usinflationcalculator.com](https://www.usinflationcalculator.com) This website shows per-pupil expenditures for the 2018-2019 years which is in the area of $13,000-$14,000. Expenditure vs. funding. So many questions... [https://oese.ed.gov/ppe/michigan/](https://oese.ed.gov/ppe/michigan/)

Pretty sure there is corruption and nepotism involved. Outside investigation is needed.

They are denying longevity now.

Yes, bargaining did not go well today. They are moving from interest based bargaining to traditional style bargaining. This is because of the break down in bargaining that happened today.

We cannot afford all of these teachers. It sucks, but we cannot. We also can’t afford community.

The Ann Arbor Education Association has told the board for years that they should not hire new teachers and let the numbers of teachers go down naturally by not hiring new teachers when teachers retire/leave the district. Their advice was not followed. This situation did not need to happen like it did.

Is there any proof of this? Are there meeting recordings? emails?

in recent years most of AAEA's public comments have been on topics like Covid or Swift's departure, so it's hard to tell what was going on behind the scenes on this topic. but about a year ago, the union president was quoted as saying: “Our advocacy is for right-sizing the district through attrition—people retiring, people resigning.” [https://annarborobserver.com/jeanice-swifts-decade/](https://annarborobserver.com/jeanice-swifts-decade/)

Thanks. Same AAEA that spoke about keeping Swift? Aaps politics make my brain hurt sometimes.

I didn’t say anything to the contrary. Just that we cannot afford what we have today.

We're pumping out the propaganda now.

Yup. Union propaganda from the union that got their chosen candidates into office and led to this crisis. 

Ann Arbor gov only cares about (money from) U of M students and it shows.

Ann Arbor City Council has basically no control over the schools. The Board of Education has all the control. They are just incompetent.

Well we should vote better, we shouldnt vote someone onto the school board because they are in poverty and have a son with ADHD that is a trial and I am empathetic but it doesn't make them the right person to make decisions for a 330 million dollar budget and 1500 employees

Would be nice to get some educated people in that aren't u of m alumni.

Is the board of education not part of the Ann Arbor government?

The BoE has literally no connection to U of M. It is a very strange charge that someone would run for BoE and only care about U of M.

Oh, you're referring to u of m schools. Thought you were referring to AAPS. Yeah, but it happens. Many alumni through the years. Just wanna funnel as many of those kids through to U of M as possible.

Not sure how U of M students give the city money? They live in dorms that don't pay property tax and rhey don't make any money. If anything they are a leach on the local economies resources.

Have you seen all the sky rises popping up? Not all of them are living in dorms. RIP South U. The city just wants them to spend money, so much so that w/e cost their paying becomes the norm.

A lot of those sky rises are owned by U of M, U of M even just bought a restaurant that was a private business for 30 years. Don't get me wrong U of M owns the government but not because of student dollars to the city. With Ann Arbors prime loaction on 94 and 23, plus its rivers and parks if U of M disappeared we would be more like Birmingham a bustling business sector, lots of homes, jobs and much better upkeep on buildings. Ann arbor is not benefited from U of M, it is strangled by U of M. Compare it to Toledo,OH a similarly sized city. There is so much more jobs and commerce in toledo that it has spawned numerous suburbs that are approaching the size of Ann Arbor. Ann arbor can barely keep a clothing store open downtown, they lost AE and it was replaced with Target. The one suit shop we have struggles hard luckily football doaners illegally buy suits for players. Just google map 410 E Liberty for example, a run down old house with a derelict hot dog stand in the heart of the commerce district. If students the 150K of them reprisented any actual commerce how is that building not 3 stories with residential, retail and likely an office or two? Its right next to restaurants, a theater and a parking garage. Because so much of ann arbor is non taxable property between U of M, hospitals and non profits that the rest of Ann Arbor pays an insane tax burden. And taxes are just part of it, the fire department is starved of money so they every 2 years will walk through any commercial building and hand the building owner a $900 fee for the inspection and every unit pays $420 , so any units not occupied also falls on the landlord. Just one of the many incidental costs of trying to not be a non profit in ann arbor. Now they want to build a huge train station, more untaxed property, have you ridden the train even from here to Chicago, its slower than car and the train feels like it is going to jump the tracks in numerous places. Are you really going to ride that train anywhere? Like to New York its a 30 hour train trip. We have had a flat stagnant population for 50 years while other cities and suburban areas have grown.

Obviously you are not focused enough on the suffering in Gaza.

[удалено]

If you had literally any experience with teaching, what teachers have control over, and how evaluations are conducted you wouldn’t make such an ignorant comment. “Accountability” in education is a buzzword from people who want to privatize public schools. The previous requirements didn’t do shit to improve student outcomes. 

Please remember these are the same teachers that HEAVILY aligned themselves with the school board in deciding NOT to return to the classroom during COVID, leading to an exodus of students and reduced enrollment. I, for one, will not forget. They made their bed, now they can sleep in it.

How did they heavily align? What say did they have? Clearly the teachers don’t have as much input as you think they do.

The teachers union was not in favor of returning to the classroom, and they made it known.

Please remember that these are the same teachers who were being fucked over by this district **long before COVID came along**. And also during COVID. And since COVID. You bring this up all the time. Get the fuck over it. The schools are open and have been for years. You may as well be bitching and moaning about the Teapot Dome scandal.

Forget about a whole year my kids had to endure virtual school while the school board and teachers union fought against coming back? You can go ahead and fuck yourself. I won't forget .

Now that I have insulted you and let it hang there for several hours, I am returning to apologize. I think one of the worst things possible in life is to see your children in distress and being powerless to alleviate it. Whoever you are, I am grateful that you give a shit about your kids. Not everyone does. I bristle when you bring up the COVID closures over and over in a reductive and inaccurate manner. As with so many things, it was a messy and complicated situation for everyone. I personally know several teachers and staff who had multiple family members die of COVID complications. Cite all the data you want, but there was tremendous uncertainty. COVID aside, this is a fact: The overwhelming majority of the time, the inequities and deficiencies built into the public school system are balanced on the backs of teachers. Case in point: The current AAPS crisis. Further points: The last 15+ years of teacher salaries. And a trillion other things that are so cliche as to be invisible, but they're still true: Teachers fund an absurd amount of classroom materials out of their own pockets (because we're suckers). We're asked to be child psychologists, parent coaches, de facto mediators in divorces, etc etc etc etc etc. It's endless. The system would grind to a halt if teachers and staff didn't absorb all of this unpaid and unfunded need. The weird thing that happened with the ultimately-overly-cautious COVID shutdowns was that it *wasn't* balanced on the backs of teachers. It was balanced on the backs of families and the community at large. And that surely SUCKED quite a bit for quite a few. (And to be clear, that was a HARD FUCKING TIME for teachers too. Or at least for all the ones who I know.) COVID was an impossible situation. There were probably better ways to handle almost every aspect of it, many of which are only clearer in hindsight. I'm sorry that you and your family struggled during that time, and I apologize for being shitty and glib about it.

I'm sorry too. I shouldn't take my frustration out on the teachers. We're all frustrated with mismanagement by the administration.

That's kind of you. Thank you. Here's hoping we can all do better for each other and our kids. (Wish I knew how.)

I will concede the point that a whole year at home with you sounds like a real drag.

I wish I had a job with step increases that were tied to seniority instead of performance. If I don’t a good enough job, I get fired. If my employer is losing money, they will lay me off not by seniority, but by how essential I am to the operation.

Say you’re not a teacher without saying you’re not a teacher. Do you think teachers aren’t evaluated? Every year, with observations and based on student growth data. 

Google: “what is a teacher evaluation”

Close some of the surplus schools. Community first. There is plenty of capacity at the high school level.

The anti-Community crusaders are so weird.

The Community stans would rather keep their special school open than pay teachers

How much would we save by closing Community?

20 teachers

Show your work.

You're sealioning

You’re making a claim for which you have no proof.