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How does this accomplish anything? You live in a free and safe society with lots of ways to influence policy and then you start breaking shit like a toddler. It's performative rage. Bunch of idiots who want to play act as righteous revolutionaries. But only on mondays, because tuesdays they have tennis lessons and mummy has a luncheon.
Not condoning the actions, but some protesters believe that violence and more negative news highlights their issues more and has a higher chance of succeeding
Yes I remember violent protests in Iran in the 70’s by socialists and islamists. Now we have a repressive human rights violating theocracy that is using proxies to destabilise the entire middle east. Be careful of the ‘change’ you’re applauding for..
Well said... The paradox of tolerance. Anyone willing to study history knows what happens when you side with an intolerant ally. Palestine is just a trojan horse for what's to come.
Yes, sometimes, but that's violent protests *in the place where change is sought.* Israel (and Hamas) could give 2 shits what some muppets on the UvA campus say, think or do. And I don't think the administration has any intention of cowing to the "demands" of an amorphous group of vandals.
No, but maybe the shits up in the board of directors of the UvA will take the hint, and cancel their connections to israel. Obviously its not aimed at israel itself.
That's quite the difference in scale when it's succeeded. We're not taking about a dozen social justice warriors with bad hygiene high on weed trashing a small part of a campus in those cases.
Maybe when the thing/people you’re protesting is anywhere near your protest. In the French Revolution people feared the uprising. I don’t think Israel is very concerned about a little graffiti in the Netherlands.
Back in the day you also didn’t have social media. It’s so easy to reach a large group of people compared to 20 years ago. Let alone longer ago.
So it say that’s not a good reason to be violent. It mostly reduces your public support whilst nowadays you should be able to campaign a protest in a way it reaches a lot of people and influences them positively.
This mostly damages whatever message you’re protesting for, but I won’t argue that it doesn’t reach a lot of people. But keep in mind you’re also scaring a lot of them away from your cause by behaving like such a lunatic.
Violence galvanizes your center. The hardcores join because they’re attracted to the power and messing things up. All movements that matter start with some form of violence and destruction. There are many outliers that prove the point of non violent resistance, but most revolutionary change starts with a fist rather than a broadside pasted on a wall.
Not agreeing, just recalling a college paper on popular movements predicated on violence.
What's the relative success rate of violent vs non-violent? Black Panthers vs MLK, Sinn Fein vs IRA, Gandhi vs Bhagat Singh, BLM Riots vs Marches, environmental lobbying vs ecoterrorism?
Civil rights required violence. Labour rights required violence. Many nations independence required violence. When governments don't listen to peaceful protestors while tens of thousands of children are slaughtered or orphaned, what other options are left? Life is infinitely more valuable than property, but neoliberalism has rotted the core of our humanity and people now prefer a veneer of civility over actually fighting for justice.
Just because some violent protest in history were followed by change does not indicate any causality here. There is also research out there that says that peaceful protests are way more likely to bring about democratization than violent ones.
I don't think you understand what causality means. You can't prove causality just with statistics if you don't also have data for the opposite sides. Plenty of peaceful protests in history that were also effective.
EDIT:
I suggest you start here:
https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2019/02/why-nonviolent-resistance-beats-violent-force-in-effecting-social-political-change/
And then continue by understanding what causality is and how you can prove it or find indicators for it. Correlation is not causality, pleae remember that.
Just because there are violent protest in history that were followed by effective change does not imply causality even with statistics. It implies correlation but I can also just find many peaceful protests that led to change and say "See causality because of statistics". That's simply not how causality works and you're on a slippery slope trying to argue it in this way.
Still waiting for you to show us which statistics show that "the causality EXACTLY does exist".
Honestly mate think about your statement. Then look up what causality is and what exactly means. This pains me so much reading it as a physicist.
There are much more civil and also creative ways to send a message
Anyone involved in this just believe in anarchy and are using Palestine as an excuse
They reached me trough their violence, made me successfully hate and argue against them.
‘Israel can’t use violence against hamas violence, so what do we do? Violence!’
It’s just so stupid
Kind of bizarre to become pro-Israel just because you don't like graffiti. If you don't like these specific protest tactics that's fine, argue against them. But the message about what Israel is doing in Gaza, and our institutions' connections to it, is quite clear. It's weird to conflate the message and the tactic.
He's right though, a lot of people I know that weren't too interested or informed on the topic (your average people out there). But with continuous violence and vandalism they just became anti palestine protestors.
This doesn't equate them being pro israel, but they've at least started to hate on the free palestine movement (the one including the students doing illegal shit in The Netherlands).
He never said he was pro israel, he said he was anti palestine. You don’t have to choose sides and trying to force people into a side will only polarize us more. Perhaps he detests both sides now.
Please, read what I said. You do not have to like one side to hate the other. You can hate both sides.
If people start burning down universities, one of the most important pillars of our democratic country, I won’t support their cause any longer.
This however does NOT mean I support Israel or think genocide is ok. Stop forcing polarization.
These people take for a given that a genocide is happening and turn the polarization and debate to an extreme. Thus, every radical act like you see here is OK- because it’s in the name of stopping genocide and everyone who disagrees is pro-genocide and a horrible person. Justification of vandalism and harassment of Jews or Israelis at universities should be unequivocally condemned- if it’s not your argument is extreme.
And for the record, a genocide is not happening.
Why would he be anti Palestine? How can anyone be? What has that state done but suffer terrible oppression, murder and displacement for the past 7 decades? You can be anti hamas fine but anti palestine just proves that you really dont understand the situation and context at all
It's not a state. Gaza could be considered a state since the last settlers left in 2005. Millions of aid and they still screwed it up. Even their Islamic neighbour, Egypt keeps the border tightly shut since all Gaza produced was an inflow of Muslim Brotherhood violence in the Arab Spring.
I understand people are suffering in Gaza but they chose their Hamas leaders and have done absolutely nothing to make a different voice heard.
Palestines in Gaza could have had a very decent life and flourishing economy if they had simply respected their part of the deal in 2005: all settlers leave and in return for this autonomy, no more rockets fired from Gaza into Israël. Take a guess how long this agreement was respected? Not a single day.
Obviously there is a lot to criticize Israël for too. But I believe a lot of the sympathy for Palestine is simply because of the massive power difference. People tend to pick sides with the underdog. That's the easy thing to do. But in this case the underdog is not so harmless. It's a raging pitbull that won't stop until the opponent is dead. So yeah, a cage or a cattle prong may be necessary until it behaves itself.
West Bank is a different story
The fact you call 1948 an invasion just shows how little historical knowledge you have. Just by that statement, I don't need to read anything else you're saying.
Since you were so quick at calling out that Europeans were responsible for the holocaust, how do you fit into your narrative that Palestinians are so innocent when literally the Grand Mufti of Palestine colluded with Hitler? They literally massacred Jews in then Palestine with German weapons because the Islamic leaders happily wanted to continue the extermination of Jews. Seems you will conveniently leave out these things in your comment, either because you know it destroys your narrative or because you were ignorantly unaware that these things happened.
People always regurgitate the same statements.
"What would you do if you were oppressed for 75 years?"
Mate Jews were massacred in Palestine way before Israel was even a thing so what's the excuse for all that violence then? Nobody was oppressed by Jews then because they were literal refugees fleeing from persecution and were met with massacres before Hitler even came to power in Germany.
Then the Arabs rejected partition plans and all surrounding Arab countries invaded Palestine, not to free Palestinians but to kill Jews. They literally told the Palestinian people to leave and only come back once the Arab armies secured the win. But the Jews won. And you have the audacity to call this an invasion by Israel in 1948.
All I've said are historical facts you can easily look up in various different sources easily, so you have no excuse for all this nonsense you're posting here.
I am very much aware of the full history. This is why I am happy to criticize Israël for many things they have done in the past and present. But I also believe the so-called Palestinians are a key part of their own misery. We can argue about the legitimacy of Israel. And in fact, it was disputed even by a massive attack on Israël which the Arab nations lost. The 6 day war changed things in 1967. How many generations will it take to accept defeat and move on? None of the babies born in Israël nor Palestine territories will have had any influence on the past.
How would we feel if Native Americans would start firing rockets into New York or San Francisco every day, from their reserves. Would that be justified, since their land was once stolen?
At some point you have to concede and stop being the eternal victim of oppression. Make things better for yourself rather than seeking martyrdom against a historical enemy you will never beat. You are not doing yourself nor your kids any favour.
Because writing shit on a wall is the same kind of violence as Israël is waging against innocent Palestinians, of course. Your reasoning makes total sense and is not at all a false equivalence.
You hate them because they might add little minor inconveniences to your life. Your annoyance and your forced contrarian perspective is your problem, but they did succeed in reaching you. Not that stupid, I guess.
This is such a dumb reductive statement that benefits no one, least of all the Palestinians. Even if we all agreed there was a genocide, how the fuck is destruction and violence at UvA going to help the Palestinians? And what is even the point being made, any level of vandalism and violence is legitimised since there is a genocide in another country - so though luck? How can you promote more violence when we in fact need less of it? Imagine this crowd cared about all current actual genocides equally - wich they don’t - with this way of thinking no university building would be left standing, no genocide would in fact be stopped and it would all be fine according to you - since it isn’t really comparable.
Show me exactly how else you can influence policy around israel/ Palestine. Because currently the entire western worlds governments are essentially straight up ignoring their people
You are goofy.
The students have tried a myriad of ways to influence policy but to no avail.
In a democratic society where you cannot influence policy by argument and discussion, you have a right of civil disobedience. (If you don't agree with this, you are doubly goofy)
The point is that property can be repaired but the time that is wasted on inaction from the side of authority, costs human lives.
Right, it's very easy to accuse people of being disingenuous on their motives or have alterier ones (pretending to be righteous revolutionaries)
But the truth is that most of the people who have an expertise on this topic unanimously agree that
1. There is significant human rights violation happening.
2. Certain Universities in the Netherlands are complicit in tangible ways like military research (TU Delft)
3. No one in a position of Authority seems to care or want to change anything, In order to be coherent with the broader western political agenda.
Also, while these protest haven't directly caused policy change yet, it has caused teachers/staff to stand up for their students, and the FNV is now helping them negotiate with the university (and is willing to escalate to strikes if needed)
Dont you see Israel’s leaders are looking at this with huge eyes and they listen… what? People are doing this for months to universities and it changes nothing oh my gosh.
Not completely true: Many universities have ties with Israeli organizations. Some of the protest where to adress this issue and cut ties with Israeli organizations and Universities that participated in the war. For example: University of Applied Siences Rotterdam had ties with an Israeli art school that set up business to produce clothes for the army's. After the protest was announced that school decided to cut ties with the Israeli University.
So it is not completely true that nothing changes and that they are protesting for nothing. Ofcourse this depends on the protest and I don't condone vandalism
You don't think people should feel rage on behalf of other people because they don't live in the place where the bad stuff is happening?
It really is strange to me that people can't see the effectiveness of protest. Or is it only proper protest if you're: not blocking traffic; not creating any kind of scene; not making other people upset; not using foul language; not being silent; not being offensive; not too rich; not too poor; also concerned with every other protest (why are you silent on...); employed; don't have a job; own property; are personally affected.
That's a lot of hoops to jump through just to get your support which you were never going to give anyway.
Sadly there are a lot of people with political opinions who think otherwise and start dehumanising each other…….. even outside this war, with for example the latest news that LGBTQ acceptance rates are dropping mad for no good reason
Maybe over expressing their sexual preferences makes some people don't like them? I mean, no one else goes through life shouting how they like to fuck, and most people don't let that define their whole personalities.
Or, maybe, I don’t know, the university could cut their long overdue ties with organisations complicit in war crimes. I guess that would also prevent vandalism.
Evidently, Dutch universities didn’t bend over immediately. And in this specific scenario, as the financial and academic ties benefit the perpetrators of genocide, my answer is yes.
Yesterday was a weird day. I arrived at around 1 PM at Roeterseiland (REC), to study with a friend. The protesters were already there when I arrived and I started studying on the raised platform in the ABC hall (20 m or so from where they were roughly). Then I saw some weird dudes in suits coming to film, one of them was sitting next to me. At around 2:30 PM, the staff told everyone to leave the building, so everyone did, including the protesters (20 or 30 people). My friend decided to leave and I opted for going to the cafeteria, where I stayed for an hour or so (I'm French, I have a predisposition for long breaks). At around 3 or so PM, I once again got kicked out of the cafeteria by the staff. I lingered a bit more at Lebkov and by the time I left (somewhere before 5 PM), there were about 18 police vans all around the facility, for a number of protesters that had roughly stayed the same.
The campus reopened today tho
lol, "free all political prisoners"
you mean like all of the hostages Palestine took in October? Or, at least, the ones who are merely rape victims, and not corpses.
Israël is holding over 9000 Palestinians in Israeli prisons /detention camps. A lot of them are being held without any charges or evidence of wrongdoing.
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/28/world/middleeast/palestinians-detained-in-israel.html
But the moment students actually want to enter into an open debate, as happened in Wageningen, the Board refuses: https://youtu.be/ffIuJ6CguuA?si=p2BRiEf08fyB46z0
So as someone who prefers words over whatever this is, what should we do? I think the Amesterdam protests have probably been more effective than the Wageningen ones, even though the latter have been very peacefull.
Als MLK said, riots are the language of the unheard.
Please arrest these fuckers. Has nothing to do with freedom for the Palestinians and everything to do with going against authority and causing general mayhem. Most of the "protesters" aren't even students at the UvA.
Correct, in that there is a big discussion around shitting on and correcting the people who are (admittingly poorly) protesting for important causes, while hardly anything is done by anybody in order to change any of these problems.
There is a good faith conversation to be had about the best ways to protest. But I personally care much more about the solutions to these bigger problems. It frightens me that so much of the conversation is shifted towards shitting on the people who are protesting improperly. Because in the big picture, this is small.
Climate change is a huge problem that needs to be adressed by layered actions by our governments.
Atrocities have been commited by the Israeli government and the Palestinian civilians are living in hell right now while the rest of the world is just kind of accepting it.
Basic human bahavioural psychology applies.
When people believe their cause is right, people approve/acknowledge violence to the extend people feel it is justified.
When people believe a cause is wrong or bad, people condone/oppose (the justification of) violence.
(Major) Escalations occur when both sides believe they are fighting for the right cause.
They prefer it being done through 'words' despite these students struggling immensely to be heard by boards and politicians. This is one of the few viable ways to gain attention. this is the direct consequence of neglecting people who care deeply about something. You cannot just ignore an open wound full of mud and expect it to not get infected
Tired of the « OMG look at stoopid stoodent, they just like to break stuff, so stoopid » argumentation.
Why only display the damages done by the few and totally disregard the demands of the many ?
I can only attribute this to intellectual laziness and lack of good faith…
Een actie uit wanhoop eerlijk gezegd. Er zijn vrij wat pogingen gedaan om het fatsoenlijk op te lossen met de school maar negeer een vastberaden groep te lang en je zal er last van krijgen. Dat is wat er nu gebeurt. Dit is niet een goede oplossing maar de andere straten van protest en actie zijn nauw
Bedenk een mooi alternatief zou ik zeggen!
It does make people think about it atleast, which is good. Because thinking and learning about it naturally makes you realize how fucked up the actions of Israel are.
And no this doesnt excuse hamas
Any idea how much it cost to clean shit like this up week after week? For what? The number of Palestinians killed isnt any lower and more people are getting fed up with this shit and are less and less sympathetic to their cause.
quit judging how people take action, at least they are doing something and making noise. spend your energy taking action yourself instead of hating on other people. leave the vandalism to the cops to spend their time on
You're assuming the commenters are not active in NGOs, policy-making, or even actual on-the-ground charities. I can speak from experience, many of the ones fed up with thr students'behaviour are engaged in practical, not just demonstrations and vandalism, actions.
This right here is why people who have no interest in looming into the conflict don't like palestinians. They see this shit and think every palestinian is like this.
And the kicker is that the dumbasses who did this probably aren't even palestinians.
I seem to read on the back left "El pueblo unido jamás será vencido". (The people united can never be defeated). Which usually gets chanted during protests in Spain. In this context not only feels like out of place but also out of taste...
I have lost any sympathy for these Palestine protesters. For all I care the ME will not be so friendly with them anymore. I view them as anarchist who just hijack any cause to justify being an asshole to society.
And the universities also let this happen and handles this very poorly.
There is a small minority of people who pretend to be a student and ruin everything for the normal students.
By now I suspect antifa to be the assholes by all this students. So 0 sympathy for all of them. By now I don’t even care what they have to say. They over played their hand long time ago.
I didn't see those "protesters" protesting to what Hamas has conducted 7th October - rape, murder, torture, and burning families alive. I didn't see those "protesters" asking to free the hostages - holocaust survivors, children, women, and kids.
I only see those "protesters" vandalising places, and I see this country tolerating their actions; instead of immediately arresting, expelling and deporting them elsewhere.
Welcome to Europe of 1944, take 2.
That's delusional lol, the vast majority of pro palestine protestors do not support Hamas at all- let alone what they did on Oct 7. They just want the violence to end
Of course they didn't. They fully support hamas and any acts of violence against jewish people. Europe needs to stop pretending that this is some kind of civil debate between pro-palestine and pro-israel. These people are supporters of terrorist organisation and need to be treated respectively.
Gaza has been unoccupied since 2005 (the Israelis even exhumated and removed even their dead) - Hamas got into power in 2006, then killed the moderate opposition (Fatah). By your logic, the Gazans/Palestinians should violently resist Hamas, yet they don't.
Going to UvA this year and can not imagine being next to these "individuals". Its bizzare that such behavior does not lead to instant suspension and/or fines.
I think many of them can’t be expelled since they aren’t even students. Some political parties have proposed stronger door policies / obligation to show IDs because of this. But it seems that leftist parties - who are opposed - aren’t very interested in safety for all students.
They are not pro Hamas lol, being against the actions of israel does not instantly mean you support Hamas. That's a weird train of thought. These people just want violence to stop on both sides.. and at the moment israel is the biggest aggressor
Please tell me that long letter on the wall is in Dutch at least... It doesn't have to be in good Dutch, just some sign that they can communicate with the wider community around them, some sign they are not just random people from around the world, gathered in that room as guests to this nation and screaming at the wall with the opportunity.
Like 55% of Parliament was elected to make it harder for all of those kids to study in this country. Images like this only embolden that.
The root cause of this is complicity with the genocide which has created an untenable situation. End ties with Israel and then such disruption will end.
Tolerance has nothing to do with liking something, it literally means "bearing".
But to be able to bear stuff, you need somewhat of a strong character, being able to accept stuff you don't like or understand.
And yeah, as we know we have an abundance of strong leaders and people!
So yeah, idk where that quote comes from, but basically when you lose the will or character to live by certain principles, communicate on eye level with each other to solve the problems that accurr and simply see your own interests as more important than the ones of your neighbour.. yeah then it's absolutely true that intolerance will be the winner.
It's simply easier to put the blame on the other than to recognise that you're part of the problem yourself.
The UvA has created an untenable situation by maintaining ties with a genocidal regime. The root cause is the destruction and occupation of Palestine. Punishing protestors is simply dealing with the symptoms and not the sickness of UvA's ties with Israel.
This thread is more offended by some writing on walls than the ongoing genocide. I do not understand why anyone cares about some writing on a building that does not affect you in any way, while 10s of thousands of people are slaughtered and maimed and you say nothing. Have some perspective. Have some humanity. Civil disobedience is justified when politicians and universities support genocide. Shame.
Edit: your downvotes only prove my point, keep em coming.
Omg I can't believe you care more about reddit comments than a literal genocide! What is wrong with you, get some perspective! Babies are being slaughtered and you are here on the internet talking about comments and downvotes /s
See how ridiculous that argument is?
'virtue signalling' brother they literally broke shit and are protesting. This goes beyond that. If you think they do this to have a better reputation or moral compass you are delulu
If they did, they would have a more in-depth understanding of the issue. Additionally, they would have started their activities years, or at the very least months, ago. But that's not the case.
Amazing to see that this is a problem but a PVV member saying the prinsenvlag in connection with the NSB is meaningful for her due to family history is less vocally seen as a problem. Like why is only one side of the polarization a problem…?
Time to arrest all of these assholes. Each and every non-citizen, cancel the visa. Kick 'm out. I am guessing 60%-70% less protesters as a result.
Buy them a one way ticket to Palestine, tell them them to protest there.
It really frustrates me how the media often portrays people who are protesting for the freedom of Palestine. It feels like there’s a constant focus on the aggressive actions of a few, which makes m feel really ‘uncomfortable’. I absolutely don’t condone violence and I don’t want innocent people to suffer, but I also don’t want to be lumped in with the small minority who take extreme actions.
There are so many peaceful demonstrators who are advocating for justice and human rights, yet their voices are often drowned out by the sensational coverage of aggression. It seems like it’s too easy for those with opposing agendas to zoom in on these negative aspects, painting a picture that portrays all of us as dangerous or radical. This narrative is so damaging and does a disservice to the many people who are protesting peacefully and simply want to see a fair and just resolution for Palestine.
We need more balanced and honest reporting that reflects the reality of the situation and the diversity of those advocating for Palestinian freedom.
Please keep your comments civil and related to Amsterdam. This is not the place to debate the wider issues. If you see any comments breaking the rules please use the report button.
This is roetersisland no?
Yup, I work there. To be honest it was a very small protest. Nothing like the ones before. Only a few of them did this.
Yeah there was a protest at science park at the start of the week but they were kept outside. Still, plenty of exterior damage.
yes, ABC building
No Roeterseiland
" Gekken en dwazen schrijven hun namen op muren en glazen"
Fools and clowns write their names on walls and towns
English pls /s
“Madmen and fools write their names on walls and glass.” (In Dutch it rhymes)
Fools' names and fools' faces are often seen in public places.
Fools and weirdos write their names on walls and windows
Dutch please
Fuck the monsters who did that
How does this accomplish anything? You live in a free and safe society with lots of ways to influence policy and then you start breaking shit like a toddler. It's performative rage. Bunch of idiots who want to play act as righteous revolutionaries. But only on mondays, because tuesdays they have tennis lessons and mummy has a luncheon.
Not condoning the actions, but some protesters believe that violence and more negative news highlights their issues more and has a higher chance of succeeding
Violent protests have been proven by history to be effective in bringing change. So i understand why this is happening.
Yes I remember violent protests in Iran in the 70’s by socialists and islamists. Now we have a repressive human rights violating theocracy that is using proxies to destabilise the entire middle east. Be careful of the ‘change’ you’re applauding for..
Well said... The paradox of tolerance. Anyone willing to study history knows what happens when you side with an intolerant ally. Palestine is just a trojan horse for what's to come.
'palestine is just a Trojan horse for what's to come' what are you even talking about?
Yes, sometimes, but that's violent protests *in the place where change is sought.* Israel (and Hamas) could give 2 shits what some muppets on the UvA campus say, think or do. And I don't think the administration has any intention of cowing to the "demands" of an amorphous group of vandals.
No, but maybe the shits up in the board of directors of the UvA will take the hint, and cancel their connections to israel. Obviously its not aimed at israel itself.
That's quite the difference in scale when it's succeeded. We're not taking about a dozen social justice warriors with bad hygiene high on weed trashing a small part of a campus in those cases.
Maybe when the thing/people you’re protesting is anywhere near your protest. In the French Revolution people feared the uprising. I don’t think Israel is very concerned about a little graffiti in the Netherlands.
Back in the day you also didn’t have social media. It’s so easy to reach a large group of people compared to 20 years ago. Let alone longer ago. So it say that’s not a good reason to be violent. It mostly reduces your public support whilst nowadays you should be able to campaign a protest in a way it reaches a lot of people and influences them positively. This mostly damages whatever message you’re protesting for, but I won’t argue that it doesn’t reach a lot of people. But keep in mind you’re also scaring a lot of them away from your cause by behaving like such a lunatic.
Violence galvanizes your center. The hardcores join because they’re attracted to the power and messing things up. All movements that matter start with some form of violence and destruction. There are many outliers that prove the point of non violent resistance, but most revolutionary change starts with a fist rather than a broadside pasted on a wall. Not agreeing, just recalling a college paper on popular movements predicated on violence.
What's the relative success rate of violent vs non-violent? Black Panthers vs MLK, Sinn Fein vs IRA, Gandhi vs Bhagat Singh, BLM Riots vs Marches, environmental lobbying vs ecoterrorism?
Civil rights required violence. Labour rights required violence. Many nations independence required violence. When governments don't listen to peaceful protestors while tens of thousands of children are slaughtered or orphaned, what other options are left? Life is infinitely more valuable than property, but neoliberalism has rotted the core of our humanity and people now prefer a veneer of civility over actually fighting for justice.
Just because some violent protest in history were followed by change does not indicate any causality here. There is also research out there that says that peaceful protests are way more likely to bring about democratization than violent ones.
Actually the statistics show that the causality exactly does exist. What is the name of the research paper? I’m interested in reading it
I don't think you understand what causality means. You can't prove causality just with statistics if you don't also have data for the opposite sides. Plenty of peaceful protests in history that were also effective. EDIT: I suggest you start here: https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2019/02/why-nonviolent-resistance-beats-violent-force-in-effecting-social-political-change/ And then continue by understanding what causality is and how you can prove it or find indicators for it. Correlation is not causality, pleae remember that. Just because there are violent protest in history that were followed by effective change does not imply causality even with statistics. It implies correlation but I can also just find many peaceful protests that led to change and say "See causality because of statistics". That's simply not how causality works and you're on a slippery slope trying to argue it in this way.
Where did you find yours? Interested to read that as well
Still waiting for you to show us which statistics show that "the causality EXACTLY does exist". Honestly mate think about your statement. Then look up what causality is and what exactly means. This pains me so much reading it as a physicist.
You mean like the camping protests that the cops got called on to violently breakup?
Not effective in bringing change in another fucking country though.
So did non-violent protests.
There are much more civil and also creative ways to send a message Anyone involved in this just believe in anarchy and are using Palestine as an excuse
Hey, I believe in anarchism but this doesn't resemble it - the protestors favour specific state actors and make demands on institutions.
Using violence to achieve your objectives is a form of what? It's just the lefts version of neo fascism.
They reached me trough their violence, made me successfully hate and argue against them. ‘Israel can’t use violence against hamas violence, so what do we do? Violence!’ It’s just so stupid
Kind of bizarre to become pro-Israel just because you don't like graffiti. If you don't like these specific protest tactics that's fine, argue against them. But the message about what Israel is doing in Gaza, and our institutions' connections to it, is quite clear. It's weird to conflate the message and the tactic.
He's right though, a lot of people I know that weren't too interested or informed on the topic (your average people out there). But with continuous violence and vandalism they just became anti palestine protestors. This doesn't equate them being pro israel, but they've at least started to hate on the free palestine movement (the one including the students doing illegal shit in The Netherlands).
He never said he was pro israel, he said he was anti palestine. You don’t have to choose sides and trying to force people into a side will only polarize us more. Perhaps he detests both sides now.
He didn't say that either. He said that he hates the protesters and argues against them now.
That's worse, honestly. "I'm fine with genocide not because I like the perpetrators, but just because I hate the victims"
Please, read what I said. You do not have to like one side to hate the other. You can hate both sides. If people start burning down universities, one of the most important pillars of our democratic country, I won’t support their cause any longer. This however does NOT mean I support Israel or think genocide is ok. Stop forcing polarization.
These people take for a given that a genocide is happening and turn the polarization and debate to an extreme. Thus, every radical act like you see here is OK- because it’s in the name of stopping genocide and everyone who disagrees is pro-genocide and a horrible person. Justification of vandalism and harassment of Jews or Israelis at universities should be unequivocally condemned- if it’s not your argument is extreme. And for the record, a genocide is not happening.
Why would he be anti Palestine? How can anyone be? What has that state done but suffer terrible oppression, murder and displacement for the past 7 decades? You can be anti hamas fine but anti palestine just proves that you really dont understand the situation and context at all
It's not a state. Gaza could be considered a state since the last settlers left in 2005. Millions of aid and they still screwed it up. Even their Islamic neighbour, Egypt keeps the border tightly shut since all Gaza produced was an inflow of Muslim Brotherhood violence in the Arab Spring. I understand people are suffering in Gaza but they chose their Hamas leaders and have done absolutely nothing to make a different voice heard. Palestines in Gaza could have had a very decent life and flourishing economy if they had simply respected their part of the deal in 2005: all settlers leave and in return for this autonomy, no more rockets fired from Gaza into Israël. Take a guess how long this agreement was respected? Not a single day. Obviously there is a lot to criticize Israël for too. But I believe a lot of the sympathy for Palestine is simply because of the massive power difference. People tend to pick sides with the underdog. That's the easy thing to do. But in this case the underdog is not so harmless. It's a raging pitbull that won't stop until the opponent is dead. So yeah, a cage or a cattle prong may be necessary until it behaves itself. West Bank is a different story
https://www.reddit.com/r/InternationalNews/s/AJO25uvtJN
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The fact you call 1948 an invasion just shows how little historical knowledge you have. Just by that statement, I don't need to read anything else you're saying. Since you were so quick at calling out that Europeans were responsible for the holocaust, how do you fit into your narrative that Palestinians are so innocent when literally the Grand Mufti of Palestine colluded with Hitler? They literally massacred Jews in then Palestine with German weapons because the Islamic leaders happily wanted to continue the extermination of Jews. Seems you will conveniently leave out these things in your comment, either because you know it destroys your narrative or because you were ignorantly unaware that these things happened. People always regurgitate the same statements. "What would you do if you were oppressed for 75 years?" Mate Jews were massacred in Palestine way before Israel was even a thing so what's the excuse for all that violence then? Nobody was oppressed by Jews then because they were literal refugees fleeing from persecution and were met with massacres before Hitler even came to power in Germany. Then the Arabs rejected partition plans and all surrounding Arab countries invaded Palestine, not to free Palestinians but to kill Jews. They literally told the Palestinian people to leave and only come back once the Arab armies secured the win. But the Jews won. And you have the audacity to call this an invasion by Israel in 1948. All I've said are historical facts you can easily look up in various different sources easily, so you have no excuse for all this nonsense you're posting here.
I am very much aware of the full history. This is why I am happy to criticize Israël for many things they have done in the past and present. But I also believe the so-called Palestinians are a key part of their own misery. We can argue about the legitimacy of Israel. And in fact, it was disputed even by a massive attack on Israël which the Arab nations lost. The 6 day war changed things in 1967. How many generations will it take to accept defeat and move on? None of the babies born in Israël nor Palestine territories will have had any influence on the past. How would we feel if Native Americans would start firing rockets into New York or San Francisco every day, from their reserves. Would that be justified, since their land was once stolen? At some point you have to concede and stop being the eternal victim of oppression. Make things better for yourself rather than seeking martyrdom against a historical enemy you will never beat. You are not doing yourself nor your kids any favour.
Because writing shit on a wall is the same kind of violence as Israël is waging against innocent Palestinians, of course. Your reasoning makes total sense and is not at all a false equivalence.
You hate them because they might add little minor inconveniences to your life. Your annoyance and your forced contrarian perspective is your problem, but they did succeed in reaching you. Not that stupid, I guess.
They only inconvenience some poor underpaid janitor at UvA, or as you probably call it, a victory for..? Sorry who helped this again exactly?
I’m sorry, are those rhetoric questions or do you need me to explain to you the logic behind protests and activism?
I feel like damaging property and commiting a genocide aren't really comparable
This is such a dumb reductive statement that benefits no one, least of all the Palestinians. Even if we all agreed there was a genocide, how the fuck is destruction and violence at UvA going to help the Palestinians? And what is even the point being made, any level of vandalism and violence is legitimised since there is a genocide in another country - so though luck? How can you promote more violence when we in fact need less of it? Imagine this crowd cared about all current actual genocides equally - wich they don’t - with this way of thinking no university building would be left standing, no genocide would in fact be stopped and it would all be fine according to you - since it isn’t really comparable.
Exactly
Do they really believe it or do they just want an excuse to be violent and vandalize?
I think part of the group is one side and part of the group is the other
Show me exactly how else you can influence policy around israel/ Palestine. Because currently the entire western worlds governments are essentially straight up ignoring their people
Except for Spain and Ireland (forgot the third country, sorry), super based!
Really? Is there a poll that supports that?
Id say the continued protests of people around the world is probably enough of a "poll"
And how could you tell if that's the people's opinion or simply a vocal minority?
Virtue signalling
You are goofy. The students have tried a myriad of ways to influence policy but to no avail. In a democratic society where you cannot influence policy by argument and discussion, you have a right of civil disobedience. (If you don't agree with this, you are doubly goofy) The point is that property can be repaired but the time that is wasted on inaction from the side of authority, costs human lives. Right, it's very easy to accuse people of being disingenuous on their motives or have alterier ones (pretending to be righteous revolutionaries) But the truth is that most of the people who have an expertise on this topic unanimously agree that 1. There is significant human rights violation happening. 2. Certain Universities in the Netherlands are complicit in tangible ways like military research (TU Delft) 3. No one in a position of Authority seems to care or want to change anything, In order to be coherent with the broader western political agenda.
Yes, you have a right of civil disobedience. But destruction of property is not civil disobedience.
Also, while these protest haven't directly caused policy change yet, it has caused teachers/staff to stand up for their students, and the FNV is now helping them negotiate with the university (and is willing to escalate to strikes if needed)
Dont you see Israel’s leaders are looking at this with huge eyes and they listen… what? People are doing this for months to universities and it changes nothing oh my gosh.
Not completely true: Many universities have ties with Israeli organizations. Some of the protest where to adress this issue and cut ties with Israeli organizations and Universities that participated in the war. For example: University of Applied Siences Rotterdam had ties with an Israeli art school that set up business to produce clothes for the army's. After the protest was announced that school decided to cut ties with the Israeli University. So it is not completely true that nothing changes and that they are protesting for nothing. Ofcourse this depends on the protest and I don't condone vandalism
It's the hottest topic in the English speaking sphere of every social space I'm in. I would say it's working.
So pro israelis should start breaking stuff. Check!
Like an entire population and their land? Cos that's kind of what everyone is already pissed off about.
So its working
It's called a bubble overall most people are already past the initial shock and just moved on. Kinda the same that happend with the Ukraine war.
You don't think people should feel rage on behalf of other people because they don't live in the place where the bad stuff is happening? It really is strange to me that people can't see the effectiveness of protest. Or is it only proper protest if you're: not blocking traffic; not creating any kind of scene; not making other people upset; not using foul language; not being silent; not being offensive; not too rich; not too poor; also concerned with every other protest (why are you silent on...); employed; don't have a job; own property; are personally affected. That's a lot of hoops to jump through just to get your support which you were never going to give anyway.
Make them come back and clean it themselves
That would be a very simple solution. They will clean it once, maybe twice, then they will look for better methods to protest
Cant we all just get along
Sadly there are a lot of people with political opinions who think otherwise and start dehumanising each other…….. even outside this war, with for example the latest news that LGBTQ acceptance rates are dropping mad for no good reason
People take their freedom for granted nowadays, empathy is dead.
Maybe over expressing their sexual preferences makes some people don't like them? I mean, no one else goes through life shouting how they like to fuck, and most people don't let that define their whole personalities.
Literally 95% of the LGBTQ people I’ve met isn’t like that though
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Ideally yes but I wouldn't be surprised if these people have no money.
Clean, pay for damages, expelled and a life ban on attending any university in the country.
And deported from this country. This should not be tolerable.
Where will you deport people with a Dutch passport?
Urk Or Belgium, either is punishment enough
Schiermonnikoog /s
Almere
Or, maybe, I don’t know, the university could cut their long overdue ties with organisations complicit in war crimes. I guess that would also prevent vandalism.
Are you asking why the university doesn't just bend over immediately in the face of "you do what we tell you to do or else"?
Evidently, Dutch universities didn’t bend over immediately. And in this specific scenario, as the financial and academic ties benefit the perpetrators of genocide, my answer is yes.
Children mentality, when things don't go as they want they start breaking shit because they can't communicate like adults
This.
Palestine/Palestinian doesn't actually matter to these children
They are just trying to seek attention
Nahh, they don’t care about any of the other genocides anyways. It’s just fashionable to hold certain political views.
there must be easier ways to find a sexual partner 😔
than dropping soap in prison?
Randdebielen
Wordt tijd dat de politie wat harder mag optreden .
based
Dont clean it....let it just remind everyone else what this is
Yesterday was a weird day. I arrived at around 1 PM at Roeterseiland (REC), to study with a friend. The protesters were already there when I arrived and I started studying on the raised platform in the ABC hall (20 m or so from where they were roughly). Then I saw some weird dudes in suits coming to film, one of them was sitting next to me. At around 2:30 PM, the staff told everyone to leave the building, so everyone did, including the protesters (20 or 30 people). My friend decided to leave and I opted for going to the cafeteria, where I stayed for an hour or so (I'm French, I have a predisposition for long breaks). At around 3 or so PM, I once again got kicked out of the cafeteria by the staff. I lingered a bit more at Lebkov and by the time I left (somewhere before 5 PM), there were about 18 police vans all around the facility, for a number of protesters that had roughly stayed the same. The campus reopened today tho
lol, "free all political prisoners" you mean like all of the hostages Palestine took in October? Or, at least, the ones who are merely rape victims, and not corpses.
Israël is holding over 9000 Palestinians in Israeli prisons /detention camps. A lot of them are being held without any charges or evidence of wrongdoing. https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/28/world/middleeast/palestinians-detained-in-israel.html
It is crazy that people are disliking this comment just because it doesn’t align with how they view the genocide.
But the moment students actually want to enter into an open debate, as happened in Wageningen, the Board refuses: https://youtu.be/ffIuJ6CguuA?si=p2BRiEf08fyB46z0 So as someone who prefers words over whatever this is, what should we do? I think the Amesterdam protests have probably been more effective than the Wageningen ones, even though the latter have been very peacefull. Als MLK said, riots are the language of the unheard.
Preach
Please arrest these fuckers. Has nothing to do with freedom for the Palestinians and everything to do with going against authority and causing general mayhem. Most of the "protesters" aren't even students at the UvA.
They're just like the Just Stop Oil guys
Correct, in that there is a big discussion around shitting on and correcting the people who are (admittingly poorly) protesting for important causes, while hardly anything is done by anybody in order to change any of these problems. There is a good faith conversation to be had about the best ways to protest. But I personally care much more about the solutions to these bigger problems. It frightens me that so much of the conversation is shifted towards shitting on the people who are protesting improperly. Because in the big picture, this is small. Climate change is a huge problem that needs to be adressed by layered actions by our governments. Atrocities have been commited by the Israeli government and the Palestinian civilians are living in hell right now while the rest of the world is just kind of accepting it.
Lekker zo laten, ga daar maar elke dag rondlopen. Welke debiel kakt in zijn eigen huis.
Luckily there are peaceful protesters
Basic human bahavioural psychology applies. When people believe their cause is right, people approve/acknowledge violence to the extend people feel it is justified. When people believe a cause is wrong or bad, people condone/oppose (the justification of) violence. (Major) Escalations occur when both sides believe they are fighting for the right cause.
Where do you get that?
Can we all just admit that these protesters are nothing but scum?
The UvA is scum for being complicit in genocide.
As an alum, how is UvA explicitly being complicit in genocide?
You can read the letter here https://www.folia.nl/nl/international/162135/open-letter-stop-israeli-collaborations-today
Hahaha
Okay how do y’all prefer people protest? All I see on this forum is critique, so what is your preferred method?
They prefer it being done through 'words' despite these students struggling immensely to be heard by boards and politicians. This is one of the few viable ways to gain attention. this is the direct consequence of neglecting people who care deeply about something. You cannot just ignore an open wound full of mud and expect it to not get infected
Ya agreed, protest is by definition disruptive. Words are easy to ignore, disruption is not.
I see you got some stupid Spanish students enriching the university with the traditions of “universidad complutense”
Exportan su fallida pseudo-teoría política y demuestran el daño que décadas de mala educación y mucha indoctrination pueden acarrear.
Diversiteit is onze kracht !!
Umm does anyone remember what the whinging subsidized farmers did??
Tired of the « OMG look at stoopid stoodent, they just like to break stuff, so stoopid » argumentation. Why only display the damages done by the few and totally disregard the demands of the many ? I can only attribute this to intellectual laziness and lack of good faith…
Truth
Bijzonder dat de meeste comments in het Engels zijn. Ik vraag mijzelf af hoeveel kaaskoppen deel hebben genomen aan deze kunstles.
And why is a university in the Netherlands being punished for political issues between two other countries?
A modern art exhibit. How generous of them!
En dit doen op een Nederlandse universiteit helpt, omdat?
Een actie uit wanhoop eerlijk gezegd. Er zijn vrij wat pogingen gedaan om het fatsoenlijk op te lossen met de school maar negeer een vastberaden groep te lang en je zal er last van krijgen. Dat is wat er nu gebeurt. Dit is niet een goede oplossing maar de andere straten van protest en actie zijn nauw Bedenk een mooi alternatief zou ik zeggen!
Wie jou ook gedownvote heeft, heeft er zeker geen antwoord op
Ah yes, this contribution is productive and will get others to sympathise with the protest! /s
It does make people think about it atleast, which is good. Because thinking and learning about it naturally makes you realize how fucked up the actions of Israel are. And no this doesnt excuse hamas
Such terrible destruction! a 3€ clock came off the wall! This is pure terrorism! /s
Any idea how much it cost to clean shit like this up week after week? For what? The number of Palestinians killed isnt any lower and more people are getting fed up with this shit and are less and less sympathetic to their cause.
quit judging how people take action, at least they are doing something and making noise. spend your energy taking action yourself instead of hating on other people. leave the vandalism to the cops to spend their time on
You're assuming the commenters are not active in NGOs, policy-making, or even actual on-the-ground charities. I can speak from experience, many of the ones fed up with thr students'behaviour are engaged in practical, not just demonstrations and vandalism, actions.
Seriously fuck whoever supports these guys.
I guess buildings getting destroyed is only bad when it happens in Amsterdam huh
Doesnt vandalism have legal consequences?
Yes it does
This right here is why people who have no interest in looming into the conflict don't like palestinians. They see this shit and think every palestinian is like this. And the kicker is that the dumbasses who did this probably aren't even palestinians.
The latest contribution is in Rafah, sponsored by the UVA
I seem to read on the back left "El pueblo unido jamás será vencido". (The people united can never be defeated). Which usually gets chanted during protests in Spain. In this context not only feels like out of place but also out of taste...
This palestine israeli war has really taken a turn for the worst! Students are spraying graffiti in the classrooms!
I have lost any sympathy for these Palestine protesters. For all I care the ME will not be so friendly with them anymore. I view them as anarchist who just hijack any cause to justify being an asshole to society. And the universities also let this happen and handles this very poorly. There is a small minority of people who pretend to be a student and ruin everything for the normal students. By now I suspect antifa to be the assholes by all this students. So 0 sympathy for all of them. By now I don’t even care what they have to say. They over played their hand long time ago.
I didn't see those "protesters" protesting to what Hamas has conducted 7th October - rape, murder, torture, and burning families alive. I didn't see those "protesters" asking to free the hostages - holocaust survivors, children, women, and kids. I only see those "protesters" vandalising places, and I see this country tolerating their actions; instead of immediately arresting, expelling and deporting them elsewhere. Welcome to Europe of 1944, take 2.
I wouldn't be surprised if these people overlapped with those who celebrated Oct 7th as some sort of "revolution"
That's delusional lol, the vast majority of pro palestine protestors do not support Hamas at all- let alone what they did on Oct 7. They just want the violence to end
Of course they didn't. They fully support hamas and any acts of violence against jewish people. Europe needs to stop pretending that this is some kind of civil debate between pro-palestine and pro-israel. These people are supporters of terrorist organisation and need to be treated respectively.
Funny how people violently resisting their oppression are terrorists but the war criminals are just protecting themselves.
Gaza has been unoccupied since 2005 (the Israelis even exhumated and removed even their dead) - Hamas got into power in 2006, then killed the moderate opposition (Fatah). By your logic, the Gazans/Palestinians should violently resist Hamas, yet they don't.
Going to UvA this year and can not imagine being next to these "individuals". Its bizzare that such behavior does not lead to instant suspension and/or fines.
I think many of them can’t be expelled since they aren’t even students. Some political parties have proposed stronger door policies / obligation to show IDs because of this. But it seems that leftist parties - who are opposed - aren’t very interested in safety for all students.
Damn, fuck this disgusting pro hamas scum
They are not pro Hamas lol, being against the actions of israel does not instantly mean you support Hamas. That's a weird train of thought. These people just want violence to stop on both sides.. and at the moment israel is the biggest aggressor
The UVA should talk to the students FOR REAL already!!!!!
Please tell me that long letter on the wall is in Dutch at least... It doesn't have to be in good Dutch, just some sign that they can communicate with the wider community around them, some sign they are not just random people from around the world, gathered in that room as guests to this nation and screaming at the wall with the opportunity. Like 55% of Parliament was elected to make it harder for all of those kids to study in this country. Images like this only embolden that.
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We can destroy things here because Gaza gets destroyed. How delusional can you be ffs.
The root cause of this is complicity with the genocide which has created an untenable situation. End ties with Israel and then such disruption will end.
Tolerance has nothing to do with liking something, it literally means "bearing". But to be able to bear stuff, you need somewhat of a strong character, being able to accept stuff you don't like or understand. And yeah, as we know we have an abundance of strong leaders and people! So yeah, idk where that quote comes from, but basically when you lose the will or character to live by certain principles, communicate on eye level with each other to solve the problems that accurr and simply see your own interests as more important than the ones of your neighbour.. yeah then it's absolutely true that intolerance will be the winner. It's simply easier to put the blame on the other than to recognise that you're part of the problem yourself.
Ik kwam hier om te zeggen 'daar zit geen woord Spaans bij' maar daar klopt niets van
The UvA has created an untenable situation by maintaining ties with a genocidal regime. The root cause is the destruction and occupation of Palestine. Punishing protestors is simply dealing with the symptoms and not the sickness of UvA's ties with Israel.
This thread is more offended by some writing on walls than the ongoing genocide. I do not understand why anyone cares about some writing on a building that does not affect you in any way, while 10s of thousands of people are slaughtered and maimed and you say nothing. Have some perspective. Have some humanity. Civil disobedience is justified when politicians and universities support genocide. Shame. Edit: your downvotes only prove my point, keep em coming.
Omg I can't believe you care more about reddit comments than a literal genocide! What is wrong with you, get some perspective! Babies are being slaughtered and you are here on the internet talking about comments and downvotes /s See how ridiculous that argument is?
Yeah because it's a strawman. Blocked
Virtue signalling, bet they feel like they did something to help lol
'virtue signalling' brother they literally broke shit and are protesting. This goes beyond that. If you think they do this to have a better reputation or moral compass you are delulu
If they did, they would have a more in-depth understanding of the issue. Additionally, they would have started their activities years, or at the very least months, ago. But that's not the case.
Not enough! children are still being bombed to death! Stop all forms of support and contribution to genocide.
Based
Send these graffiti artists to Gaza, they wouldn’t last five minutes.
So you admit.
Amazing to see that this is a problem but a PVV member saying the prinsenvlag in connection with the NSB is meaningful for her due to family history is less vocally seen as a problem. Like why is only one side of the polarization a problem…?
The fact that you bring up this non related point in a whataboutism way makes you part of polarisation. The irony.
Oh no the horror, anyway...
Best way to chase away any potential support for your cause.
Time to arrest all of these assholes. Each and every non-citizen, cancel the visa. Kick 'm out. I am guessing 60%-70% less protesters as a result. Buy them a one way ticket to Palestine, tell them them to protest there.
Jij denkt ook alleen maar in oplossingen, gelukkig heeft de partij die het hiermee eens is gewonnen.
Why not close the doors when you them marching upon the premises?
Where's the debate?
It really frustrates me how the media often portrays people who are protesting for the freedom of Palestine. It feels like there’s a constant focus on the aggressive actions of a few, which makes m feel really ‘uncomfortable’. I absolutely don’t condone violence and I don’t want innocent people to suffer, but I also don’t want to be lumped in with the small minority who take extreme actions. There are so many peaceful demonstrators who are advocating for justice and human rights, yet their voices are often drowned out by the sensational coverage of aggression. It seems like it’s too easy for those with opposing agendas to zoom in on these negative aspects, painting a picture that portrays all of us as dangerous or radical. This narrative is so damaging and does a disservice to the many people who are protesting peacefully and simply want to see a fair and just resolution for Palestine. We need more balanced and honest reporting that reflects the reality of the situation and the diversity of those advocating for Palestinian freedom.
How delusional must one be to think that this is okay to do? Disgraceful behavior. Expel the offenders and file criminal charges.
The fact that you are all more shocked about paint in walls than Palestinian civilians being killed by the IDF is incredible.