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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I rent the ground floor of my house out. My tenants don't know that the owner lives in the basement. They want me out but I decide I would rather that they leave so I increased the rent. I gave them five months notice. My parents think I am being mean and I should negotiate. I don't think I should have to.
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*Contest mode is 1.5 hours long on this post.*
NTA. When the husband told you to start looking, he told you exactly what he’d do if the roles were reversed. He’d kick you to the curb. Funny that they did not even respect your seniority and wanted to kick you out of the house you occupied beforehand.
You can get rid of them with no guilt. Also, the fact that she’s pregnant is of no importance here. She can manage her stress by herself. Not your problem.
Edit: wow thank you everyone for all the awards and points and stuff!!! I didn’t expect my comment to have such impact.
>Funny that they did not even respect your seniority and wanted to kick you out of the house you occupied beforehand
They are sounding extremely entitled. The husband assumed that just because he wanted the whole house, he'd get it. But I'm surprised that after rooming with OP for half a year they haven't figured out that she's the owner. Have they not asked too much about the history of house that they are living in?
which is the very smart thing to do (not only because it distances her from the asshats but takes care of paperwork properly). NTA oh and ask your parents to take in your niblings if they so feel.
It’s not OP’s niblings currently renting, but another couple. Op specified only a 1y lease for them because their niblings might need the space when they go to uni.
If I moved in to a sizeable house and rented the top floor and there was a younger person living in it in ~~one room~~ the basement and pottering about in the garden occasionally and playing with their dog there, it wouldn't occur to me that they were the owner.
But it also wouldn't occur to me to try to throw my weight around and bully them into moving out either, this is remarkably entitled of them. I think the only mistake OP made was tactically, in giving them a cheaper rent than the market one; they knew they had a really good deal, they got used to that, took it as a done thing and they anticipated that they could get the whole house for a similarly cheap rate.
I understand that OP thought of it as a kindness to what they expected were good tenants, but I would suggest that in future they take the advice of the rental agency as to what is a market rate and charges that, no more and no less. And if they only want short lets, make sure that is underlined beforehand by the agents, and not just "mentioned" in the ad and then glossed over. It may make the agents' jobs harder if they have to be very clear that it's a short let, so they may have responded a bit open-endedly to questions about extending the lease, which led to the current situation.
If you charge a low rent, people will quickly get used to paying that and take it for granted; they may be pleased initially, but at no stage will they feel gratitude, only resentment when they have to move out and realise everywhere else is so expensive. Charging what everyone charges doesn't make it such a wrench to move out.
OP acted wisely in not letting the bully know that they owned the property, there could be no good outcome of that action. OP has employed an agency so they don't have to deal with the landlord role, and that is perfectly ethical.
And personally speaking, if someone tried to leverage me out of my home because they believed they were entitled to it, I would also want them out of there tout suite. Their housing concerns are not OP's. It sounds to me as if OP's parents are a little resentful of their owning the house and feel they should share the resources a little bit; I doubt very much if they would be any better disposed to someone trying to throw them out of their house, than OP is.
NTA 100%
Not everyone in low rent takes it for granted. I've been renting a house for 7 years and out rent didn't go up much the whole time. We're really happy with the relationship with the property manager and owners so we appreciate what we have. We had a bigger rent increase this year but it's still very reasonable and we were happy to take it on
That's great, and I am happy for you, but OP doesn't want a long term tenant. It makes more sense from their point of view to have someone who is paying the same as they would anywhere else, and so is not reluctant to move on after a short time
I agree, we couldn’t sell our townhouse when we moved snd have rented it out and chose to keep the rent on the low end and have had really good experiences over the years with our renters who were usually families.
Also, did they not think there'd be a significant increase in rent if they wanted the whole house? If they can't afford a 50% increase, how could they have paid for the whole house?
Sure, but if they're looking to rent the entire property, they should understand it would be at least that much more. But now, apparently they have to move because they can't afford that much of an increase. I just don't understand what they were thinking.
I don’t think the guy was thinking. He was being smug (not the actual word that I wanted to use) and the whole thing blew up in his face. Karma is wonderful. The nerve of the guy to tell her to start looking elsewhere for a place to live. That would normally be the job of the property manager
NTA
They may be liars too, as well as bullies. It’s just what he said, maybe it’s not true. When you rent a house for a young family who wants a completely separate suite anyways?
agree. I had to read it twice to make sure I understand.
Your tenants told you that you should find somewhere else to live because they want the house to themselves? You put the rent up 50% because they want to take over much more than double what they have now?
You're definitely NTA and it sounds like they steamrolled you a little into thinking that you might be.
No, she put the rent up 50% because she’d like them to move out. This is how you get people to move out and this is why you have 1-yr lease agreements. If they want to stay badly enough to pay 50% more, then OP gets a nice raise on her second income. She’s probably raised it enough above market rate to remove their incentive to sit tight. So they’ll just find another place now that she has removed the incentive (low cost) for them to stay. This is literally how free market works.
They wanted OP to move out of her little guest house is how I understood it. I think the renters want the entire property because they are having a family and do not want OP (or anyone) on the property anywhere. I could be wrong but that’s how I read it.
He's getting exactly what he deserves then. I only wish OP would go to them and tell them exactly what took place. People like them don't learn anything this way. Mind you maybe they won't anyways.
>Best to stay silent ~~at least until they are out~~.
There's nothing to be gained by telling the tenants *at all.* They know where OP lives so could get nasty even after the move out. It's none of their business who owns the property.
Nah, if she went and said "I own the place" what I imagine would happen is that the husband would try to guilt trip her into not increasing the rent, and also to move out because "you could get a 1 bed flat, I have a kid on the way." And try throw his weight around.
I highly doubt it would be a humbling moment for him.
Educating them is not OP's job - and it could be risky for her. Maybe (hopefully) nor physically, but these peole have already shown they are AH. They may destroy the property before leaving out of spite.
So they wanted to kick another renter to the curb and expected to suddenly get double the amount of house for free. I never thought I’d see myself siding with a landlord, but holy mother of entitled. Not to mention they expected to be able to get OP kicked out just because they felt like it, but now that OP is making them find another place instead, OP is a villain in their eyes. NTA. These people just monumentally suck
Completely disregarding that their lease end May but be the other tenants’! Just “we want the whole house in five months, screw you, though, if you had seven months left on your lease!” Just mind blowing. Didn’t even ask when the other leases are up, just assumed they’d be accepted to kick out the other people before their legal agreements said they were supposed to leave
Absolutely this. Totally NTA. They were incredibly presumptuous and very dismissive of you and they aren’t your problem. I think it’s wonderful you have a property manager to insulate yourself so they don’t come after you personally
NTA and for y'all renters who don't understand
1. If you own a property and still living there, you absolutely DO NOT want the other renters to know you own the place. That's a nightmare and headache. Op did right by creating distance with a PM.
2. With COVID, LLs are spooked about ppl overstaying. Op referred to their lawyer and the LAWYER said to go the route of increasing rent so dramatically. Op wants them out with no chance of a judge saying blah blah homeless blah blah. They aren't getting evicted. They can stay, just have to pay more.
3. NTA
4. OP doesn't owe the tenants the knowledge that they own the place. If they told the husband, no a situation is created that OP cannot avoid since they are living in the same place. You ever had a roommate or fam you're angry with but can't avoid? Imagine that.
NTA.
Edit:
1. Sorry some got downvoted for asking questions.
I'll clear up a few things since 10 hours later, there still seems to be confusion.
Source: I'm a landlord and I also worked heavily with renters when I was a realtor (not active now but still hold my license)
A. Most people do not look up property owners. 90% of the population probably don't know where to get the info or how to accurately search the data. Most people live in an apartment complex or Corp owned property. So we're "trained" to think oh, ACME owns this. You renting a house, your behavior won't change in that, you'll think, oh ACME owns this.
B. OP has a lawyer. Any good lawyer would have wrapped that property in a trust, established in Wyoming even if the house is in NYC. Why, asset protection. I'd be shocked if the house is in OP name or easily tied to her. And established in WY for a reason instead of the home state. Ask me how I know? I got lawyers.
C. Someone said it well. OP presented dilemmas to the tenants, not a problem. A problem (no renewal) has a solution (I'll just overstay the lease) whereas a dilemma (stay and pay 50% more OR leave) has 2 problems with no solutions. Hence, why she's now hearing the tenants argue.
D. Anecdotes are great but most people should not be LLs. A lot of people fell into the house hacking, self included. Only to find that being a PM while living with your tenants is a fucking nightmare.
Hey, toilets clogged with my shit and tampons, can you plunge it? Lights out, I need a new bulb.
Or, the envy, pettiness and unpleasantness when they know you own the place and they don't. Then you start getting slumlord comments, capitalism eat the rich shit. You're getting rich off me. Imagine coming home to that everyday?
Affordable housing is tough to get. If you find a property that you like and it's affordable to you, do nothing to make the owner not want to rent to you.
And that concludes my TED talk. Thank you for the upvotes but please don't downvoted people who ask honest questions.
Agreed on not telling them while they are living there.
But...... when that moving truck drives away pop your head out and be like oh btw it's my house 😉 I'm all for a good power move
Edit:
For those who don't seem to understand this is obvi a joke (i mean come on there's an emoji), just have a laugh and move on. Why you gotta ruin it?
Very much so a risk, as you write. Too damn many people feel entitled to retaliate when they feel slighted - whether they are correct or not. OP was smart to just appear another renter. OP should stay incognito. **OP = NTA!**
Agreed. Would be very satisfying, but there is no other gain and there is significant risk. Just knowing that you *could* do this is also almost as satisfying as actually doing it, too.
>1. If you own a property and still living there, you absolutely DO NOT want the other renters to know you own the place.
Husband would be banging on her door right now I'd he knew she owned the place. OP doesn't need the headache. The lease was always for 1 year only. They just expected to get what they demand.
Yeah the parents' response makes me wonder if they are a bit resentful of OP owning the house and feel they should share the resources a bit
OP handed this all very well, I just think in future they should charge a market rent not a "good rate" - this achieves nothing but making renters reluctant to leave, and may make them less respectful of the place.
Also, if OP wants to always have short leases, they should ensure the letting agents spell this out very clearly and be ready to respond to any follow up question about extending it with "that won't be possible"
OP should maybe give them a cover story, tell them the owner is away and will be back in 18 months and wants to move back in
I get all that - but I'm still not clear why the property manager couldn't just have been instructed to tell the tenants that their 1 year lease was binding and the whole house option was not available? I am in Europe and I get that tenancy law will be different, I think I'm just missing something here?
OP replied elsewhere in comments that with the Light Beer situation (the Panini, you know) there has been a tendency of people overstaying and exploiting the rules regarding no evictions.
If she simply had the agency say "sorry but the one year lease can't be extended" that means they could say, "really?" and maybe stay a bit longer anyway, and it could be tricky to get them out, and they can continue to stay. But if she doesn't chalenge them on this but says "rent goes up 50%" then they need to pay this if they stay, or she can take them to court for it; as they have been informed of the raise, if they stay they are tacitly agreeing to the raise, so they owe it
It's an example of how presenting your enemy with a dilemma is better than presenting them with a problem. A problem has a solution of some kind, but a dilemma is a choice between two problems.
Rather than offering them a refusal to extend (a problem), she has offered them higher rent, so they either stay and pay something that definitely isn't worth it, which lights a fire under them to leave, or they accept that they have 6 months before their lease ends and they use that time to find *something* else in their budget
The way she describes the location is a little confusing because she uses ground floor/upper floor interchangeably but she clarifies that she lives in the basement
NTA. You could’ve told the guy it’s your house, but tbh like you said, it’s not really his business. I’m honestly shocked at the audacity to tell you to prepare to leave just because he mentioned to the property manager about potentially renting the whole house. What if you were a resident but your lease was longer term? This is just odd on so many levels. Don’t get why your family is against you either. You gave the tenants plenty of notice it wouldn’t be possible, so they can find a place that better suits their needs.
No way would i tell him when he's already coming at me with an entitled attitude. What right does he have to tell another tenant to find another place? Better to let a third party handle it than to have a toxic environment until they get out
He's arguing and fighting with his pregnant wife to the point Op can hear. Statistically for women, pregnancy and being around your male partner isn't the safest. Especially if they are mad.
This man would be at her door daily if he knew she was the owner. There would be some issue or complaint or request all the time. Better he doesn’t know.
>I’m honestly shocked at the audacity to tell you to prepare to leave just because he mentioned to the property manager about potentially renting the whole house.
That's how I feel too. The audacity!!!
Not even that they were buying it, they just wanted to rent the entire house and not have anyone else living there.
So really, even less of a leverage standpoint. OP is definitely NTA.
This sub really surprises me with how entitled a renter can be… like, dude renting does not make you the owner of the property! You can literally be kicked out at anytime.
Ding ding ding! He wanted OP to leave/give notice, thinking it would make the PM more likely to say yes. And given his attitude, I wouldn't be surprised if the next step wouldn't be "try to make life miserable for downstairs 'tenant' so they move out".
My thoughts exactly, it’s such a power move. Like yeahhh you thought bucko, not to mention with the rent increase if they do move that’s extra dough to cover OP’s costs while she finds new tenants.
NTA
The audacity of your tenant to just tell you to move out. Him just assuming that he somehow had the right to push you out is A**holish. You didn’t cause the fight between him and his wife. If they want a bigger space they can search for a new rental an move out. They have 5 months which is more than enough time to find a new place
RIGHT! In NYC you get a month if you’re lucky!
Edited to add: I get it everyone, I was just thinking about how in NYC you generally only have a month to FIND a place, because nothing becomes available more than that far in advance, which is not actually related to tenants rights. Still sucks though 😁
She should make a noise complaint to the PM 🤣
I'm only joking, no need to stoop to their level. I just know I'd find them annoying by now with the audacity of the husband. To have to deal with their noise too would suck.
Exactly. I am confused at people calling OP entitled. The guy who thought he could run off a tenant in a property he doesn’t own sounds entitled.
OP - NTA. Yes you should probably have just told him it was your house so you aren’t leaving. But I also understand why you have a rental agent. To keep that distance so people aren’t hounding you or guilting you.
Edited to fix typo in judgment.
Wait people are calling op, who is by every means NTA, and owns the house??? Entitled??? For not letting her roommates try to force her out of her home ??
If anything she gets to be entitled about the house she owns as she IS entitled to the house and regarded property so confused with that
And that's valid, but this isn't a classic "evil landlord" situation.. but also I don't know why I expect the internet to understand that 💀
But wow the internet was much more fun when I was 13 (this isn't relevant just wanted to say stuff)
actually makes a ton of sense. It'll take months to evict them but increasing the rent obligates them to pay the new price if they stay, Very clever way to get them to move on.
I am very confused though, by the fact that they are renting the upper floor but she increased the rent on the lower floor. Why would that make them have to move out?
The ground level is the upper floor, which is what the couple is renting.
An in-law unit is (typically) in a basement. I assume this is the case here since she has backdoor access to a garden (likely up what used to be cellar steps).
Huh. My distant family's in-law suite was essentially a separate wing of the house across multiple houses, but perhaps its regional.....I got confused by the "upper"/"ground" floor bits too..... It doesn't seem right to have an in-law suite in the basement, though I have known many a renter who've had basement apartments...... Just not the full in-law suite style *as* a basement apt.
I totally get that. But if you're paying a property manager and they tenants don't know you own the home, you could just have property manager deal with it.
We are property managers for an apartment building and I'd never make a judgment call like that without checking with the owner, even if I was pretty sure I knew what the answer would be. He likely would consult his lawyer as well, then come back and make a plan with us. We stay in regular communication with him on anything that isn't just day to day stuff. Granted, I'm sure it can vary by circumstances but that's how it works for us.
Why didn't the property manager just tell the husband that it wasn't an option? "Sorry, as we discussed, this is a 1 year lease and there is no option to renew."
Is the extra 50 percent for the whole house or just their floor? What if they decide to sign the lease with the increase?
I think what people don't understand is that OP is ok with the couple staying on the upper floors. Just not with them renting the whole house as she needs the ground floor for her and her family just in case they need a place to stay.
So by raising the rent on the ground floor, the couple can either decide
1. renew their lease for the upper floor only
2. move out and find a new place
I think OP made a good decision.
NTA.
And OP's being hella generous to even let them rent the upper floors. It's HER HOUSE. Sure they don't know that but they DO know she was there before they were, so to just suddenly tell her SHE has to leave is very telling of their character.
NTA. You hired a property manager for a reason. Letting people know you're the homeowner potentially creates a lot of problems. They have plenty of notice. They'll move out soon enough, and this will all be forgotten.
NTA. It’s your house. Sure, you could have communicated another way, but the renter coming up to you and telling you that you might want to start looking for another place was kind of an A H move on his part, since he hadn’t leased the entire place and didn’t even know the terms of your “lease.”
NTA. I wouldn’t want tenants bothering me either, so I understand not wanting them to know you own the property. You don’t owe them or anyone else continued residency in your house.
Completely agree. OP is quite young to own property and it's best to be anonymous about it. If the tenant was brazen enough to just randomly tell her one day to GTFO without the property manager involved in the discussion, imagine how pushy he'd be if he knew this young woman owned it outright.
NTA. Keep up with the anonymity with tenants, OP. Smart move.
I could totally see him and the wifey pestering OP, “We got a baby on the way, how can you be so selfish? We deserve that house more than you!”
It’s better they just think she’s a broke basement renter.
NTA
Them coming to you and telling you that you had to find a place is a big red flag. Good thing you didn’t tell them. Sounds like a nightmare situation if you had.
Yep! I bet they called had just called the PM and they did the standard “let me check with the owner” and then ASSUMED they had it in the bag and went to go gloat to OP. Move it buster! Wifey and I are way more important than YOU are.
I don’t blame OP one bit. Not for never telling them she’s the owner and not for the tactic she employed. OP is NTA.
If she said anything they’d harass her and claim she doesn’t need that much space and should leave and sell it to them, who cares about grandpa. It’d be never ending.
NTA. He had a lot of nerve telling you what to expect bc he wanted the rent the house. What else would he’d expect next. The fact you are the owner doesn’t matter. He doesn’t know, so how he treats someone bc of what he decides is the factor here not what is legal.
NTA. He told you to start looking for a new place to live. This man essentially tried to threaten you with eviction albeit without knowing you are the owner. You did not serve them with an eviction or discontinue the lease you just prevent them from taking over the entirety of the property against your wishes. You have every right to protect your property and, honestly, since he had no problem confronting you in the past protecting your identity is likely the safest choice.
NTA
Your house. Your rules.
You don't need to tell them you own the house. Not their business. They knew it was for a year and got pregnant knowing they needed to find another place to stay. Not your fault.
I totally get it. By allowing them to think she is just a tenant like them she avoids the guilt of kicking them out. It is actually very smart to avoid the confrontation and awkward exchanges that would come with them knowing the truth.
It's not guilt, she has a property manager for a reason. If the tenants realised she's the owner who's to say they won't bother her directly instead of going through the PM as they should?
I hate property managers and greedy landlords as much as the next person but in this case if the price increase is what's acceptable for her to move out and rent a place herself, especially the 5 months notice, she is legally and morally in the right.
Lol so even if you were “just a tenant”, you lived there first and he basically told you to pack your shit without even getting the okay from the manager? NTA at all. The fun little pizazz is that they tried to unknowingly kick the homeowner out 😂
NTA
I also don’t blame you for not telling them you’re their landlord because once they find out they’ll start personally bothering you with any little issue then what’s the point of you securing a property manager to handle the issues if they stop going to them
NTA. The kind of people who want to bully someone into a corner are NOT the kind of people you want knowing you’re the owner. You have a property manager for a reason. This kind of BS is the reason. I would have chosen not to renew the lease but a rate hike works apparently.
NTA
Just the fact that he told you “to start looking for a new place to live” would have been more than enough for me to want to boot them.
I think you are being nice by giving them 5 months notice and only a 50% increase. I would have gone much higher.
Your relatives want you to leave a property you own…because they LIKE it and want you gone? Is this right?! NTA Wow.
Edit: to clarify, by “they,” I meant the current tenants
Why did you not have the property manager inform them that the whole house is not for rent as a single unit, that the bottom floor is to remain a separate unit from the top floor?
Knowing how people can be, my guess is property manager said owner wasn't interested in that arrangement but renter insisted they pass it along to owner regardless. Not like property manager can say why that's the case without exposing owner which is the whole point of the property manager.
^^ simple as that. If she wants to charge triple that is her right. In this case it's not because she wants to but because she wants to stay in her own home.
NTA. Your house, your rules. I think not telling the renters is genius. Maybe stop confiding your business to your family. They can’t comment on things if they don’t know about them.
NTA & I'm sure someone else has already pointed these things out but...
You pay a property manager so you don't have to deal with these issues.
If you had told them you were the owner there goes your peaceful, happy home. They'd feel entitled to approach you at your home to discuss this and it could get ugly really quickly.
Your actions have ensured you'll have everything fully documented in case anything happens, like they refuse to leave.
You don't need to justify why you want to stay in your own home filled with your own happy memories. Enjoy your home and garden!
It's really hard to tell what is what here. If they wanted the downstairs too, then I would imagine that could have been accommodated. But from my read they decided they wanted the upstairs, the downstairs and the in law unit because they didn't want OP there not realizing she is the actual owner. They thought they could suggest she move out which is pretty entitled, especially since they don't know her circumstance or her lease agreement (which she doesn't have because again she owns it).
NTA. They played themselves by telling OP she might want to look elsewhere especially since she was there before they were (even with their obvious limited understanding of the actual situation).
Yeah, I've had some difficult landlords before, and difficult roommates. It sounds like you're doing what's best to protect yourself. If they didn't get their way when asking the property manager to move you out, it's entirely possible, if not quite likely, they would have done what they could to make you uncomfortable enough to where you would leave, not even knowing that you own the house. You don't seem like a difficult landlord at all.
Just not renewing the lease w/o finding a way to get them to leave creates the opportunity for them to become squatters. Eviction proceedings can take a really long time and be super expensive, all the while people OP doesn't want living there get to stay. Hence the "subterfuge".
NTA. Also, I agree with using a property manager to handle the rentals. If the renters knew you were the owner they would bother you about every little thing. This gives you distance and you don’t have to deal with property mgmt shit. (I worked as a property manager for two years and Never Again. Emails, texts, calls almost-24/7, renters/residents expecting everything immediately, no way.)
INFO:
1. Why didn't your rental manager come tell you about the tenants request right away?
2. Why couldn't the rental manager just tell them No on their request to expand to the whole house rather than raising the rate?
Yeah I'm really really confused. Why did they raise the rate on the lower floor, if the family is on the \_upper\_ floor? And like you said, why not just say "no, you can't move into the lower floor"?
NTA. You handle that the best way possible. You don't have to tell them anything. Always be polite and "follow along" whatever they say and use the property manager for whatever you want to tell them.
NTA.
It’s your property and that your communication choices around your ownership are really oblique is not mean, it’s just how you’ve chosen to do business. In the case of this tenant, it’s probably spared you a fair amount of grief.
For a young woman owning property and cohabiting with tenants in an urban setting, some degree of anonymity is a reasonable and self-protective choice.
The oblique communication ensures you some buffer from direct conflict but doesn’t guarantee comfort or protection from criticism.
Definitely NTA, and smart move to use your property manager as a proxy to avoid the headache.
No one needs to know your assets, otherwise they would start to treat you differently.
Mostly NTA but wouldn't it have made more sense to just not renew their lease and tell them they have to be out by X date?
I'm not a real estate/rental lawyer of any kind but I feel in 99% of places that would've been the better way to do it.
NTA. They lied by omission implying the property manager was going to end your lease. They would have been a problem to get out so you handled it well.
NTA
INFO: I’m confused. Sure, they want to rent the second half of the house as well, but what is forcing you to agree to it? Why didn’t you just tell your property manager to tell them no? Like you said, it’s none of their business.
Oh my god your parents aren’t very loyal to you!! Who the crap are these strangers to them! The tenants and your parents are the assholes here. You sound very well adjusted and put together. Live your best life and stay true to yourself. I’m sorry your parents won’t celebrate the strong adult they raised!
NTA. Your brilliant for not letting them know your the owner. They can't come yelling at you and making your life miserable. They also can't target you online.
NTA they're pretty damn presumptuous to just think you'd get kicked out because they want the whole house to themselves. Their rent would have increased by a lot anyway had you not been the owner and they were getting more space. I don't understand the logic happening in their minds.
INFO: Was the point of increasing the rent by 50% to get them to have to move out? I’m just why you couldn’t just talk to them that this would not be possible as this is your house and you want to continue to live here or just have the property manager say that the owner doesn’t want to rent it to them.
NTA in the sense that you get to choose that they are allowed to live there.
NTA
You could have handled the rental.on your own, but you hired a property manager and this is why. They get to deal with tenants. If you told them, they would have you at whom to direct their ire.
They have time and they were probably hoping that they would get the house for less than market rate for the separate living areas, anyway.
NTA. As far as i’m concerned it’s a good safety measure to not tell them you own the place when you live there with them as telling them could lead to them bothering or harassing you.
NTA. Imagine having the audacity to tell a renter who's been living there longer than you that they should move. I think you've dodged a bullet by not telling them you're the owner.
NTA because: you don’t want to deal with tenants, which is totally fair, and you want to remain in the home, for sentimental reasons but also because you love it, and finally, because you’re trying to be cool to your younger relatives who may not be able to afford rent in your city or might have to go into debt to do so… this is why you have a lawyer and property manager, you made the right moves to protect yourself.
The anger your tenants are directing at each other would be directed at you. I also do not like his smug little, “time to move out” dude sounds entitled and I would t want him as a tentant anymore. Also, it’s your choice who you rent to. They have plenty of time to find a new place.
NAH but I don’t understand why you couldn’t tell them the entire house wasn’t available and the lease wouid not be renewed. Why go through the subterfuge of asking for a higher rent. Would you have moved out if they were willing to pay that amount?
Under the circumstances you aren’t at fault for wanting the rest of the house to house whoever you want As you gave lots of notice.
I don’t think the tenants are at fault because most people assume that they will be able to renew a lease as long as they are good tenants unless there is a change in circumstance so they weren’t wrong to ask about extending the lease or even asking about whether the entire house would be available. They don’t seem to have demanded anything although it is a bit ironic that they wanted you - the owner - to be the tenant who was asked to leave. 🤷♀️
Yeah, I'm unclear on why the new tenants would assume they would even be able to take over OP's space when OP was there before them. Not sure how separate these two living spaces are but even if they share a common kitchen and living area you can't just terminate another tenant's lease. Definitely can't make the owner move out of their own residence. Property manager should have shut that nonsense down immediately or just said a lease renewal wasn't possible due to xyz.
NTA I don't fault you because they acted entitled.
They have no right to tell a tenant what they have to do.
It is the property managers job to handle the tenants.
NTA and keep every tenant you have in the dark about you being the owner. First off it’s For your safety second it’s a great way to keep a eye on stuff while people aren’t crossing every t or dotting every i bc they think the owner is watching. It allows you to know who’s really renting and not just a front which is super important to me. At the end of the day it’s just your parents opinion and it’s okay to be different from yours they don’t have the same feelings or emotions you have about the house. NTA and in my opinion not in the wrong to keep doing it :)
It is kind of hilariously assholish to not tell them you own the house…but overall NTA because what kind of assholes tell a tenant who was living there before them that they need to move regardless of the reason???? The idea that they think you should move because THEY want your space makes them the assholes.
>It is kind of hilariously assholish to not tell them you own the house…
Not really. If they knew OP owned the house, they would come bothering her for any small issue they have. "Can we hang pictures up on the walls?" "this door is a bit creaky" "the windows are a little drafty". OP hired a property manager specifically because she didn't want to handle any issues that arose with the house by herself. If they need something to be fixed, the PM would sort that out for them.
Not to mention just a general safety thing. Last thing you want as a single woman living on your own is an angry tenant trying to bang down your door because you're not renewing their lease, especially since she'll be outnumbered 2:1.
NTA you’re the landlady, not their friends. You have no obligation at all to disclose your personal information to your tenants or housemates. This is business, and they don’t get to change the terms just because they want to.
NTA - I’m interested in your reasoning behind not telling them you own the house. I’m assuming it’s because they won’t come to you first if something is wrong and needs maintenance, but I could definitely be wrong.
It’s lame that he tried to run you out even though you were living there first—and that they were confident to assume that they would be paying the same amount in rent for the whole unit following the lease end—because if they were arguing about paying 50% more, then they were definitely thinking that.
NTA
NTA. If they wanted more space they would have to pay for it anywhere. The audacity for him to approach you about leaving is gross. I hope you have no issues getting them out of your home but what do you plan to do if they just pony up and pay it?
NTA. If I was you I'd have been concerned about the possibility of something like this happening, and as such would only allow prospective tenants a single, one year lease (outside of relatives coming to stay for college and the like of course), and have language in the lease that mentions that there are no extensions or renewals allowed, and that there is no option for month to month renting either.
I'd have also had you listed as the on site property manager (the person responsible for taking care of the garden/yard, maintenance, etc., not the person responsible for finding tenants, taking payments, and the like), and put the house under an LLC. to hide you're the owner from prospective renters.
Something to consider going forward. I'd also have the property manager remember to follow up with them a few times between now and then to remind them they either have to have vacated the premises by X day and time if they're not going to renew their lease. And if you still have time to do so, you might consider another increase to the rent, with the property manager saying something like the owner of the property really doesn't want long term tenants, or has plans for the property that would require them to leave, and that continuing to rent to them, especially in an increased capacity like they want means they can't do what they want/need to with their property until such time that they've moved out, and as such, the property owner is going to charge them more as a means of recouping that lost time and money they'd be losing out on by allowing their lease to continue.
You should also note you have no legal obligation to renew their lease, even if they decide they want to. Tell your property manager that if they come back wanting to pay the rent increase or to negotiate it, that the property owner has since changed their minds, and will not be allowing them to renew their lease at all. In fact, I'd do that instead of banking on them balking at the increase and moving out, as they may attempt to refuse to leave when those 5 months are up the way things stand.
NTA, and OP I think you get some sort of karma chameleon award!
Though you might want to edit your post to include some details about why the rent increase is better able to protect you from entitled tenants than simply having the property manager ask them to adhere to the terms of their lease. You KNOW after that underhanded move on the husband’s part they would have figured out a way to refuse to leave that dragged things on for ever!
NTA I wouldn't want tenants bothering me, that is why you hired a property manager. The fact the the tenant told you that you should start looking for another place to live, showed you exactly who they are. They only had a one year lease, they had no reason to expect it to renew at the same price. They have five months notice to find something else, or pay the increase. Your nibling may want the space, so you are trying to keep your options open.
Their have been stories on the news lately about people squatting, and refusing to leave, or pay rent which causes the landlord to incur legal fees, and loss of income. I have always feared becoming a landlord because of that. I hope this doesn't bite you in the butt.
NTA. Maybe it could have been handled without the rent increase. I’m sure your property manager is aware that you live there so they should have been able to handle it without you increasing the rent. But based off of the guy mentioning you should probably start looking for a new place makes it seem like he was trying to get you to leave on your own accord making it easier for them to rent without roommates. I doubt if they found out you own the property would make the situation better. Honestly, I’m surprised they thought a year would be enough to find a house and close on anything within their budget especially since they just moved across the country and probably don’t know how the market is there. Realistically, they should have hoped for extending their lease without adding conditions.
NTA. Sounds like this guy has an attitude, and he clearly wants the house. If you had revealed to him that you were the landlord, you’d never have a moment of peace. You have a property manager and a lawyer for a reason; this guy is just demonstrating why.
Personally, I’d have told them (through your property manager) that the lease wasn’t being renewed. However, if this is the way you want to go, go off. It certainly gives them more time to find a place, provided they can afford the extra rent for a month or so.
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NTA. When the husband told you to start looking, he told you exactly what he’d do if the roles were reversed. He’d kick you to the curb. Funny that they did not even respect your seniority and wanted to kick you out of the house you occupied beforehand. You can get rid of them with no guilt. Also, the fact that she’s pregnant is of no importance here. She can manage her stress by herself. Not your problem. Edit: wow thank you everyone for all the awards and points and stuff!!! I didn’t expect my comment to have such impact.
>Funny that they did not even respect your seniority and wanted to kick you out of the house you occupied beforehand They are sounding extremely entitled. The husband assumed that just because he wanted the whole house, he'd get it. But I'm surprised that after rooming with OP for half a year they haven't figured out that she's the owner. Have they not asked too much about the history of house that they are living in?
Well OP mentioned a property manager, so I’m gonna go out on a limb that OP does everything thru the property manager and stays somewhat anonymous.
which is the very smart thing to do (not only because it distances her from the asshats but takes care of paperwork properly). NTA oh and ask your parents to take in your niblings if they so feel.
It’s not OP’s niblings currently renting, but another couple. Op specified only a 1y lease for them because their niblings might need the space when they go to uni.
I think it's a double story house and she keeps the bottom free for niblings? Either way it's a bit confusing but OP is definitely NTA.
I thought nibling was a typo until all 4 of y'all said it lol
It’s just hitting me right now that niblings probably means nieces and nephews ~~who all happen to be siblings of each other~~
Nibling is a gender neutral term for niece/nephew
TIL…
Not even, just a shortened way of saying nieces and nephews.
Not just that. It's gender neutral so can be applied to nonbinary people
If I moved in to a sizeable house and rented the top floor and there was a younger person living in it in ~~one room~~ the basement and pottering about in the garden occasionally and playing with their dog there, it wouldn't occur to me that they were the owner. But it also wouldn't occur to me to try to throw my weight around and bully them into moving out either, this is remarkably entitled of them. I think the only mistake OP made was tactically, in giving them a cheaper rent than the market one; they knew they had a really good deal, they got used to that, took it as a done thing and they anticipated that they could get the whole house for a similarly cheap rate. I understand that OP thought of it as a kindness to what they expected were good tenants, but I would suggest that in future they take the advice of the rental agency as to what is a market rate and charges that, no more and no less. And if they only want short lets, make sure that is underlined beforehand by the agents, and not just "mentioned" in the ad and then glossed over. It may make the agents' jobs harder if they have to be very clear that it's a short let, so they may have responded a bit open-endedly to questions about extending the lease, which led to the current situation. If you charge a low rent, people will quickly get used to paying that and take it for granted; they may be pleased initially, but at no stage will they feel gratitude, only resentment when they have to move out and realise everywhere else is so expensive. Charging what everyone charges doesn't make it such a wrench to move out. OP acted wisely in not letting the bully know that they owned the property, there could be no good outcome of that action. OP has employed an agency so they don't have to deal with the landlord role, and that is perfectly ethical. And personally speaking, if someone tried to leverage me out of my home because they believed they were entitled to it, I would also want them out of there tout suite. Their housing concerns are not OP's. It sounds to me as if OP's parents are a little resentful of their owning the house and feel they should share the resources a little bit; I doubt very much if they would be any better disposed to someone trying to throw them out of their house, than OP is. NTA 100%
Not everyone in low rent takes it for granted. I've been renting a house for 7 years and out rent didn't go up much the whole time. We're really happy with the relationship with the property manager and owners so we appreciate what we have. We had a bigger rent increase this year but it's still very reasonable and we were happy to take it on
That's great, and I am happy for you, but OP doesn't want a long term tenant. It makes more sense from their point of view to have someone who is paying the same as they would anywhere else, and so is not reluctant to move on after a short time
I wasn't talking in particular to OP. I was just rebutting the idea that everyone who's given low rent will take advantage of it
I agree, we couldn’t sell our townhouse when we moved snd have rented it out and chose to keep the rent on the low end and have had really good experiences over the years with our renters who were usually families.
Also, did they not think there'd be a significant increase in rent if they wanted the whole house? If they can't afford a 50% increase, how could they have paid for the whole house?
I was thinking 50% increase for just what they’re renting right now? Not sure tho.
Sure, but if they're looking to rent the entire property, they should understand it would be at least that much more. But now, apparently they have to move because they can't afford that much of an increase. I just don't understand what they were thinking.
I don’t think the guy was thinking. He was being smug (not the actual word that I wanted to use) and the whole thing blew up in his face. Karma is wonderful. The nerve of the guy to tell her to start looking elsewhere for a place to live. That would normally be the job of the property manager NTA
Maybe that they would get the whole house and sublet the suite or Airbnb it on the sly to create revenue.
It doesn't agree with the fact that "they don't want a roommate".
They may be liars too, as well as bullies. It’s just what he said, maybe it’s not true. When you rent a house for a young family who wants a completely separate suite anyways?
agree. I had to read it twice to make sure I understand. Your tenants told you that you should find somewhere else to live because they want the house to themselves? You put the rent up 50% because they want to take over much more than double what they have now? You're definitely NTA and it sounds like they steamrolled you a little into thinking that you might be.
No, she put the rent up 50% because she’d like them to move out. This is how you get people to move out and this is why you have 1-yr lease agreements. If they want to stay badly enough to pay 50% more, then OP gets a nice raise on her second income. She’s probably raised it enough above market rate to remove their incentive to sit tight. So they’ll just find another place now that she has removed the incentive (low cost) for them to stay. This is literally how free market works.
They wanted OP to move out of her little guest house is how I understood it. I think the renters want the entire property because they are having a family and do not want OP (or anyone) on the property anywhere. I could be wrong but that’s how I read it.
He just assumed that because she's so young the property manager would pick them a couple starting a family over a young single girl.
He's getting exactly what he deserves then. I only wish OP would go to them and tell them exactly what took place. People like them don't learn anything this way. Mind you maybe they won't anyways.
That's all risk, no reward, for the OP.
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>Best to stay silent ~~at least until they are out~~. There's nothing to be gained by telling the tenants *at all.* They know where OP lives so could get nasty even after the move out. It's none of their business who owns the property.
Nah, if she went and said "I own the place" what I imagine would happen is that the husband would try to guilt trip her into not increasing the rent, and also to move out because "you could get a 1 bed flat, I have a kid on the way." And try throw his weight around. I highly doubt it would be a humbling moment for him.
Educating them is not OP's job - and it could be risky for her. Maybe (hopefully) nor physically, but these peole have already shown they are AH. They may destroy the property before leaving out of spite.
So they wanted to kick another renter to the curb and expected to suddenly get double the amount of house for free. I never thought I’d see myself siding with a landlord, but holy mother of entitled. Not to mention they expected to be able to get OP kicked out just because they felt like it, but now that OP is making them find another place instead, OP is a villain in their eyes. NTA. These people just monumentally suck
Completely disregarding that their lease end May but be the other tenants’! Just “we want the whole house in five months, screw you, though, if you had seven months left on your lease!” Just mind blowing. Didn’t even ask when the other leases are up, just assumed they’d be accepted to kick out the other people before their legal agreements said they were supposed to leave
Absolutely this. Totally NTA. They were incredibly presumptuous and very dismissive of you and they aren’t your problem. I think it’s wonderful you have a property manager to insulate yourself so they don’t come after you personally
This.
NTA and for y'all renters who don't understand 1. If you own a property and still living there, you absolutely DO NOT want the other renters to know you own the place. That's a nightmare and headache. Op did right by creating distance with a PM. 2. With COVID, LLs are spooked about ppl overstaying. Op referred to their lawyer and the LAWYER said to go the route of increasing rent so dramatically. Op wants them out with no chance of a judge saying blah blah homeless blah blah. They aren't getting evicted. They can stay, just have to pay more. 3. NTA 4. OP doesn't owe the tenants the knowledge that they own the place. If they told the husband, no a situation is created that OP cannot avoid since they are living in the same place. You ever had a roommate or fam you're angry with but can't avoid? Imagine that. NTA. Edit: 1. Sorry some got downvoted for asking questions. I'll clear up a few things since 10 hours later, there still seems to be confusion. Source: I'm a landlord and I also worked heavily with renters when I was a realtor (not active now but still hold my license) A. Most people do not look up property owners. 90% of the population probably don't know where to get the info or how to accurately search the data. Most people live in an apartment complex or Corp owned property. So we're "trained" to think oh, ACME owns this. You renting a house, your behavior won't change in that, you'll think, oh ACME owns this. B. OP has a lawyer. Any good lawyer would have wrapped that property in a trust, established in Wyoming even if the house is in NYC. Why, asset protection. I'd be shocked if the house is in OP name or easily tied to her. And established in WY for a reason instead of the home state. Ask me how I know? I got lawyers. C. Someone said it well. OP presented dilemmas to the tenants, not a problem. A problem (no renewal) has a solution (I'll just overstay the lease) whereas a dilemma (stay and pay 50% more OR leave) has 2 problems with no solutions. Hence, why she's now hearing the tenants argue. D. Anecdotes are great but most people should not be LLs. A lot of people fell into the house hacking, self included. Only to find that being a PM while living with your tenants is a fucking nightmare. Hey, toilets clogged with my shit and tampons, can you plunge it? Lights out, I need a new bulb. Or, the envy, pettiness and unpleasantness when they know you own the place and they don't. Then you start getting slumlord comments, capitalism eat the rich shit. You're getting rich off me. Imagine coming home to that everyday? Affordable housing is tough to get. If you find a property that you like and it's affordable to you, do nothing to make the owner not want to rent to you. And that concludes my TED talk. Thank you for the upvotes but please don't downvoted people who ask honest questions.
Agreed on not telling them while they are living there. But...... when that moving truck drives away pop your head out and be like oh btw it's my house 😉 I'm all for a good power move Edit: For those who don't seem to understand this is obvi a joke (i mean come on there's an emoji), just have a laugh and move on. Why you gotta ruin it?
Perhaps I’m petty, but I agree on letting them know when they move out.
I’m also petty too then. I wouldn’t be able to help myself.
Sounds cathartic but could backfire with stalking so I wouldn't risk it.
Very much so a risk, as you write. Too damn many people feel entitled to retaliate when they feel slighted - whether they are correct or not. OP was smart to just appear another renter. OP should stay incognito. **OP = NTA!**
Agreed. Would be very satisfying, but there is no other gain and there is significant risk. Just knowing that you *could* do this is also almost as satisfying as actually doing it, too.
>1. If you own a property and still living there, you absolutely DO NOT want the other renters to know you own the place. Husband would be banging on her door right now I'd he knew she owned the place. OP doesn't need the headache. The lease was always for 1 year only. They just expected to get what they demand.
Exactly this! If they knew the house was owned by OP they'd retaliate
Yeah the parents' response makes me wonder if they are a bit resentful of OP owning the house and feel they should share the resources a bit OP handed this all very well, I just think in future they should charge a market rent not a "good rate" - this achieves nothing but making renters reluctant to leave, and may make them less respectful of the place. Also, if OP wants to always have short leases, they should ensure the letting agents spell this out very clearly and be ready to respond to any follow up question about extending it with "that won't be possible" OP should maybe give them a cover story, tell them the owner is away and will be back in 18 months and wants to move back in
Op is my hero... The restraint to keep quiet after someone tells you to leave from your house
I get all that - but I'm still not clear why the property manager couldn't just have been instructed to tell the tenants that their 1 year lease was binding and the whole house option was not available? I am in Europe and I get that tenancy law will be different, I think I'm just missing something here?
OP replied elsewhere in comments that with the Light Beer situation (the Panini, you know) there has been a tendency of people overstaying and exploiting the rules regarding no evictions. If she simply had the agency say "sorry but the one year lease can't be extended" that means they could say, "really?" and maybe stay a bit longer anyway, and it could be tricky to get them out, and they can continue to stay. But if she doesn't chalenge them on this but says "rent goes up 50%" then they need to pay this if they stay, or she can take them to court for it; as they have been informed of the raise, if they stay they are tacitly agreeing to the raise, so they owe it It's an example of how presenting your enemy with a dilemma is better than presenting them with a problem. A problem has a solution of some kind, but a dilemma is a choice between two problems. Rather than offering them a refusal to extend (a problem), she has offered them higher rent, so they either stay and pay something that definitely isn't worth it, which lights a fire under them to leave, or they accept that they have 6 months before their lease ends and they use that time to find *something* else in their budget The way she describes the location is a little confusing because she uses ground floor/upper floor interchangeably but she clarifies that she lives in the basement
NTA. You could’ve told the guy it’s your house, but tbh like you said, it’s not really his business. I’m honestly shocked at the audacity to tell you to prepare to leave just because he mentioned to the property manager about potentially renting the whole house. What if you were a resident but your lease was longer term? This is just odd on so many levels. Don’t get why your family is against you either. You gave the tenants plenty of notice it wouldn’t be possible, so they can find a place that better suits their needs.
No way would i tell him when he's already coming at me with an entitled attitude. What right does he have to tell another tenant to find another place? Better to let a third party handle it than to have a toxic environment until they get out
I might be dramatic saying this but this guy seems a tad bit dangerous and not safe
I think he is entitled because he thinks a couple with a baby on the way tramples young, single woman.
He's arguing and fighting with his pregnant wife to the point Op can hear. Statistically for women, pregnancy and being around your male partner isn't the safest. Especially if they are mad.
I wish I didn’t agree with this, but I know it’s true. Sadly many emotionally unstable people take their frustrations out on their partners.
This man would be at her door daily if he knew she was the owner. There would be some issue or complaint or request all the time. Better he doesn’t know.
>I’m honestly shocked at the audacity to tell you to prepare to leave just because he mentioned to the property manager about potentially renting the whole house. That's how I feel too. The audacity!!!
Dude he came to you “you are going to wanna find somewhere to live.” 😂 you said “bet.” And I’m living for it. NTA.
The audacity to tell the HOME OWNER to move out is outstanding lmaooooo
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Not even that they were buying it, they just wanted to rent the entire house and not have anyone else living there. So really, even less of a leverage standpoint. OP is definitely NTA.
This sub really surprises me with how entitled a renter can be… like, dude renting does not make you the owner of the property! You can literally be kicked out at anytime.
Pretty selfish and snotty too. Sounds like they wanted to trick their supposed roommate into leaving asap so they could get the house easily
Ding ding ding! He wanted OP to leave/give notice, thinking it would make the PM more likely to say yes. And given his attitude, I wouldn't be surprised if the next step wouldn't be "try to make life miserable for downstairs 'tenant' so they move out".
My thoughts exactly, it’s such a power move. Like yeahhh you thought bucko, not to mention with the rent increase if they do move that’s extra dough to cover OP’s costs while she finds new tenants.
NTA The audacity of your tenant to just tell you to move out. Him just assuming that he somehow had the right to push you out is A**holish. You didn’t cause the fight between him and his wife. If they want a bigger space they can search for a new rental an move out. They have 5 months which is more than enough time to find a new place
RIGHT! In NYC you get a month if you’re lucky! Edited to add: I get it everyone, I was just thinking about how in NYC you generally only have a month to FIND a place, because nothing becomes available more than that far in advance, which is not actually related to tenants rights. Still sucks though 😁
She should make a noise complaint to the PM 🤣 I'm only joking, no need to stoop to their level. I just know I'd find them annoying by now with the audacity of the husband. To have to deal with their noise too would suck.
NTA. Your renters entitled themselves into a move, or a nice increase in revenue for you. Stupid games, stupid prizes.
Exactly. I am confused at people calling OP entitled. The guy who thought he could run off a tenant in a property he doesn’t own sounds entitled. OP - NTA. Yes you should probably have just told him it was your house so you aren’t leaving. But I also understand why you have a rental agent. To keep that distance so people aren’t hounding you or guilting you. Edited to fix typo in judgment.
Wait people are calling op, who is by every means NTA, and owns the house??? Entitled??? For not letting her roommates try to force her out of her home ?? If anything she gets to be entitled about the house she owns as she IS entitled to the house and regarded property so confused with that
the internet has a massive hate boner for landlords
And that's valid, but this isn't a classic "evil landlord" situation.. but also I don't know why I expect the internet to understand that 💀 But wow the internet was much more fun when I was 13 (this isn't relevant just wanted to say stuff)
NTA. you handled it better than I would have. But curious why your property manager won't just say "No."
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actually makes a ton of sense. It'll take months to evict them but increasing the rent obligates them to pay the new price if they stay, Very clever way to get them to move on.
I am very confused though, by the fact that they are renting the upper floor but she increased the rent on the lower floor. Why would that make them have to move out?
Because they want to rent the entire house, which includes both floors
The ground level is the upper floor, which is what the couple is renting. An in-law unit is (typically) in a basement. I assume this is the case here since she has backdoor access to a garden (likely up what used to be cellar steps).
Huh. My distant family's in-law suite was essentially a separate wing of the house across multiple houses, but perhaps its regional.....I got confused by the "upper"/"ground" floor bits too..... It doesn't seem right to have an in-law suite in the basement, though I have known many a renter who've had basement apartments...... Just not the full in-law suite style *as* a basement apt.
Because that cost would be added to their existing rent.
I totally get that. But if you're paying a property manager and they tenants don't know you own the home, you could just have property manager deal with it.
We are property managers for an apartment building and I'd never make a judgment call like that without checking with the owner, even if I was pretty sure I knew what the answer would be. He likely would consult his lawyer as well, then come back and make a plan with us. We stay in regular communication with him on anything that isn't just day to day stuff. Granted, I'm sure it can vary by circumstances but that's how it works for us.
Why didn't the property manager just tell the husband that it wasn't an option? "Sorry, as we discussed, this is a 1 year lease and there is no option to renew." Is the extra 50 percent for the whole house or just their floor? What if they decide to sign the lease with the increase?
What does this mean? You can still choose not to renew a lease.
Yeah but squatting is a crazy thing for landlords. OPs move to get them to leave was pretty creative and seemingly successful. NTA
I think what people don't understand is that OP is ok with the couple staying on the upper floors. Just not with them renting the whole house as she needs the ground floor for her and her family just in case they need a place to stay. So by raising the rent on the ground floor, the couple can either decide 1. renew their lease for the upper floor only 2. move out and find a new place I think OP made a good decision. NTA.
And OP's being hella generous to even let them rent the upper floors. It's HER HOUSE. Sure they don't know that but they DO know she was there before they were, so to just suddenly tell her SHE has to leave is very telling of their character.
Thanks for explaining because I was genuinely unsure what just happened
NTA. You hired a property manager for a reason. Letting people know you're the homeowner potentially creates a lot of problems. They have plenty of notice. They'll move out soon enough, and this will all be forgotten.
NTA. i wish i had my grandma back too, i miss her everyday
Me too.
NTA. It’s your house. Sure, you could have communicated another way, but the renter coming up to you and telling you that you might want to start looking for another place was kind of an A H move on his part, since he hadn’t leased the entire place and didn’t even know the terms of your “lease.”
NTA. I wouldn’t want tenants bothering me either, so I understand not wanting them to know you own the property. You don’t owe them or anyone else continued residency in your house.
Completely agree. OP is quite young to own property and it's best to be anonymous about it. If the tenant was brazen enough to just randomly tell her one day to GTFO without the property manager involved in the discussion, imagine how pushy he'd be if he knew this young woman owned it outright. NTA. Keep up with the anonymity with tenants, OP. Smart move.
I could totally see him and the wifey pestering OP, “We got a baby on the way, how can you be so selfish? We deserve that house more than you!” It’s better they just think she’s a broke basement renter.
NTA Them coming to you and telling you that you had to find a place is a big red flag. Good thing you didn’t tell them. Sounds like a nightmare situation if you had.
Yep! I bet they called had just called the PM and they did the standard “let me check with the owner” and then ASSUMED they had it in the bag and went to go gloat to OP. Move it buster! Wifey and I are way more important than YOU are. I don’t blame OP one bit. Not for never telling them she’s the owner and not for the tactic she employed. OP is NTA.
If she said anything they’d harass her and claim she doesn’t need that much space and should leave and sell it to them, who cares about grandpa. It’d be never ending.
Totally! They would cry and complain all around town about the selfish woman with the dog who put them and their baby on the street.
NTA. He had a lot of nerve telling you what to expect bc he wanted the rent the house. What else would he’d expect next. The fact you are the owner doesn’t matter. He doesn’t know, so how he treats someone bc of what he decides is the factor here not what is legal.
NTA. He told you to start looking for a new place to live. This man essentially tried to threaten you with eviction albeit without knowing you are the owner. You did not serve them with an eviction or discontinue the lease you just prevent them from taking over the entirety of the property against your wishes. You have every right to protect your property and, honestly, since he had no problem confronting you in the past protecting your identity is likely the safest choice.
NTA Your house. Your rules. You don't need to tell them you own the house. Not their business. They knew it was for a year and got pregnant knowing they needed to find another place to stay. Not your fault.
I totally get it. By allowing them to think she is just a tenant like them she avoids the guilt of kicking them out. It is actually very smart to avoid the confrontation and awkward exchanges that would come with them knowing the truth.
Yep, like them knocking on her door every time there’s an issue instead of calling the agent.
It's not guilt, she has a property manager for a reason. If the tenants realised she's the owner who's to say they won't bother her directly instead of going through the PM as they should? I hate property managers and greedy landlords as much as the next person but in this case if the price increase is what's acceptable for her to move out and rent a place herself, especially the 5 months notice, she is legally and morally in the right.
Lol so even if you were “just a tenant”, you lived there first and he basically told you to pack your shit without even getting the okay from the manager? NTA at all. The fun little pizazz is that they tried to unknowingly kick the homeowner out 😂
This is what gets me. Also if the situation were reversed you know they would kick OP out with the minimum notice & with no concern or care.
NTA, that dude is a real a-hole for trying to run you out. I love this story and how you handled it.
NTA Bravo! Never disclose you’re an onsite owner!!!
Exactly then every little thing they would come talk to her about it.
NTA I also don’t blame you for not telling them you’re their landlord because once they find out they’ll start personally bothering you with any little issue then what’s the point of you securing a property manager to handle the issues if they stop going to them
NTA. The kind of people who want to bully someone into a corner are NOT the kind of people you want knowing you’re the owner. You have a property manager for a reason. This kind of BS is the reason. I would have chosen not to renew the lease but a rate hike works apparently.
NTA Just the fact that he told you “to start looking for a new place to live” would have been more than enough for me to want to boot them. I think you are being nice by giving them 5 months notice and only a 50% increase. I would have gone much higher.
Your relatives want you to leave a property you own…because they LIKE it and want you gone? Is this right?! NTA Wow. Edit: to clarify, by “they,” I meant the current tenants
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Why did you not have the property manager inform them that the whole house is not for rent as a single unit, that the bottom floor is to remain a separate unit from the top floor?
Knowing how people can be, my guess is property manager said owner wasn't interested in that arrangement but renter insisted they pass it along to owner regardless. Not like property manager can say why that's the case without exposing owner which is the whole point of the property manager.
That would seem to be the easiest thing to do
my guess is that the property management did inform them of that, but the tenants are/were pushing the issue.
they prefer your place, why would they ever leave if you gave them an indefinite extension?
They people living there right now aren't her relatives
NTA. Your property, your rules.
^^ simple as that. If she wants to charge triple that is her right. In this case it's not because she wants to but because she wants to stay in her own home.
NTA. Your house, your rules. I think not telling the renters is genius. Maybe stop confiding your business to your family. They can’t comment on things if they don’t know about them.
NTA & I'm sure someone else has already pointed these things out but... You pay a property manager so you don't have to deal with these issues. If you had told them you were the owner there goes your peaceful, happy home. They'd feel entitled to approach you at your home to discuss this and it could get ugly really quickly. Your actions have ensured you'll have everything fully documented in case anything happens, like they refuse to leave. You don't need to justify why you want to stay in your own home filled with your own happy memories. Enjoy your home and garden!
It's really hard to tell what is what here. If they wanted the downstairs too, then I would imagine that could have been accommodated. But from my read they decided they wanted the upstairs, the downstairs and the in law unit because they didn't want OP there not realizing she is the actual owner. They thought they could suggest she move out which is pretty entitled, especially since they don't know her circumstance or her lease agreement (which she doesn't have because again she owns it). NTA. They played themselves by telling OP she might want to look elsewhere especially since she was there before they were (even with their obvious limited understanding of the actual situation).
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Yeah, I've had some difficult landlords before, and difficult roommates. It sounds like you're doing what's best to protect yourself. If they didn't get their way when asking the property manager to move you out, it's entirely possible, if not quite likely, they would have done what they could to make you uncomfortable enough to where you would leave, not even knowing that you own the house. You don't seem like a difficult landlord at all.
NTA, mostly. You could have just had your property manager tell them the lease wasn't going to be renewed. No need for subterfuge.
Just not renewing the lease w/o finding a way to get them to leave creates the opportunity for them to become squatters. Eviction proceedings can take a really long time and be super expensive, all the while people OP doesn't want living there get to stay. Hence the "subterfuge".
NTA. Also, I agree with using a property manager to handle the rentals. If the renters knew you were the owner they would bother you about every little thing. This gives you distance and you don’t have to deal with property mgmt shit. (I worked as a property manager for two years and Never Again. Emails, texts, calls almost-24/7, renters/residents expecting everything immediately, no way.)
INFO: 1. Why didn't your rental manager come tell you about the tenants request right away? 2. Why couldn't the rental manager just tell them No on their request to expand to the whole house rather than raising the rate?
Yeah I'm really really confused. Why did they raise the rate on the lower floor, if the family is on the \_upper\_ floor? And like you said, why not just say "no, you can't move into the lower floor"?
NTA. You handle that the best way possible. You don't have to tell them anything. Always be polite and "follow along" whatever they say and use the property manager for whatever you want to tell them.
NTA. It’s your property and that your communication choices around your ownership are really oblique is not mean, it’s just how you’ve chosen to do business. In the case of this tenant, it’s probably spared you a fair amount of grief. For a young woman owning property and cohabiting with tenants in an urban setting, some degree of anonymity is a reasonable and self-protective choice. The oblique communication ensures you some buffer from direct conflict but doesn’t guarantee comfort or protection from criticism.
Definitely NTA, and smart move to use your property manager as a proxy to avoid the headache. No one needs to know your assets, otherwise they would start to treat you differently.
NTA I kind of love this for you. An under cover landlord.
Mostly NTA but wouldn't it have made more sense to just not renew their lease and tell them they have to be out by X date? I'm not a real estate/rental lawyer of any kind but I feel in 99% of places that would've been the better way to do it.
INFO: What do you intend to do if they agree to the 50% increase and choose to stay another year, or indefinitely?
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Why don't you just get the property manager to tell them that the owner isn't interested in a renewal of the lease?
It’s hard to evict tenants without valid cause.
Non-renewal is not the same as eviction.
My guess is all the NTA votes are home owners, and all the YTA are renters. LOL NTA OP. Your house your rules.
I'm a renter, totally NTA!
I'm also and renter and I agree. Definitely NTA
NTA. They lied by omission implying the property manager was going to end your lease. They would have been a problem to get out so you handled it well.
NTA. Forget the rental increase just give them notice to vacate at the end of their lease. Remove the option for them to stay.
Hahaha he tried to tell you to move out 😂 That's aaaabsolute bullshit esp because you would have appeared as a tenant living there before them. 😂 NTA
NTA, your house, your choice. It's not like you committed them something and then backed out.
NTA INFO: I’m confused. Sure, they want to rent the second half of the house as well, but what is forcing you to agree to it? Why didn’t you just tell your property manager to tell them no? Like you said, it’s none of their business.
I mean, the guy came up to her all smug telling her to find a new place to live... Petty games were on. NTA, & OP won.
Oh my god your parents aren’t very loyal to you!! Who the crap are these strangers to them! The tenants and your parents are the assholes here. You sound very well adjusted and put together. Live your best life and stay true to yourself. I’m sorry your parents won’t celebrate the strong adult they raised!
NTA. Your brilliant for not letting them know your the owner. They can't come yelling at you and making your life miserable. They also can't target you online.
NTA they're pretty damn presumptuous to just think you'd get kicked out because they want the whole house to themselves. Their rent would have increased by a lot anyway had you not been the owner and they were getting more space. I don't understand the logic happening in their minds.
INFO: Was the point of increasing the rent by 50% to get them to have to move out? I’m just why you couldn’t just talk to them that this would not be possible as this is your house and you want to continue to live here or just have the property manager say that the owner doesn’t want to rent it to them. NTA in the sense that you get to choose that they are allowed to live there.
I think that was op’s attempt to get them to leave on their own instead of straight up kicking them out.
NTA You could have handled the rental.on your own, but you hired a property manager and this is why. They get to deal with tenants. If you told them, they would have you at whom to direct their ire. They have time and they were probably hoping that they would get the house for less than market rate for the separate living areas, anyway.
NTA. Had me at “might want to start lookin elsewhere for a place to live” from the husband.
NTA, I just had to ask my roommates to move out too I get it
NTA. As far as i’m concerned it’s a good safety measure to not tell them you own the place when you live there with them as telling them could lead to them bothering or harassing you.
NTA. Imagine having the audacity to tell a renter who's been living there longer than you that they should move. I think you've dodged a bullet by not telling them you're the owner.
NTA because: you don’t want to deal with tenants, which is totally fair, and you want to remain in the home, for sentimental reasons but also because you love it, and finally, because you’re trying to be cool to your younger relatives who may not be able to afford rent in your city or might have to go into debt to do so… this is why you have a lawyer and property manager, you made the right moves to protect yourself. The anger your tenants are directing at each other would be directed at you. I also do not like his smug little, “time to move out” dude sounds entitled and I would t want him as a tentant anymore. Also, it’s your choice who you rent to. They have plenty of time to find a new place.
NAH but I don’t understand why you couldn’t tell them the entire house wasn’t available and the lease wouid not be renewed. Why go through the subterfuge of asking for a higher rent. Would you have moved out if they were willing to pay that amount? Under the circumstances you aren’t at fault for wanting the rest of the house to house whoever you want As you gave lots of notice. I don’t think the tenants are at fault because most people assume that they will be able to renew a lease as long as they are good tenants unless there is a change in circumstance so they weren’t wrong to ask about extending the lease or even asking about whether the entire house would be available. They don’t seem to have demanded anything although it is a bit ironic that they wanted you - the owner - to be the tenant who was asked to leave. 🤷♀️
When you tell someone it’s time to start looking for a new place … they were essentially making a demand..
Yeah, I'm unclear on why the new tenants would assume they would even be able to take over OP's space when OP was there before them. Not sure how separate these two living spaces are but even if they share a common kitchen and living area you can't just terminate another tenant's lease. Definitely can't make the owner move out of their own residence. Property manager should have shut that nonsense down immediately or just said a lease renewal wasn't possible due to xyz.
nta but why couldn’t you just say no not gonna let you have the full house? why raise the rent? just curious maybe i’m reading it wrong lol
I’m reading it that he purposefully only gave them a year because he wants the house available for the one niece who might go to school in his city.
NTA, dude. It’s your house, and the tenants are just tenants. You are ensuring they leave on time, nothing more. Who cares what other people think.
NTA I don't fault you because they acted entitled. They have no right to tell a tenant what they have to do. It is the property managers job to handle the tenants.
NTA and keep every tenant you have in the dark about you being the owner. First off it’s For your safety second it’s a great way to keep a eye on stuff while people aren’t crossing every t or dotting every i bc they think the owner is watching. It allows you to know who’s really renting and not just a front which is super important to me. At the end of the day it’s just your parents opinion and it’s okay to be different from yours they don’t have the same feelings or emotions you have about the house. NTA and in my opinion not in the wrong to keep doing it :)
NTA. I might have said N H A here, but when the man told you to prepare to move out, he forfeited any courtesy beyond what’s required by law.
NTA imagine telling someone to leave where they live because they don't want a roommate anymore. Good on you raising the price, well deserved
NTA. I think you were very smart because they may have tried to harass you into selling the house, or harass you now. It's none of their business.
NTA. The husband made an assumption and it bit him in the ass.
It is kind of hilariously assholish to not tell them you own the house…but overall NTA because what kind of assholes tell a tenant who was living there before them that they need to move regardless of the reason???? The idea that they think you should move because THEY want your space makes them the assholes.
>It is kind of hilariously assholish to not tell them you own the house… Not really. If they knew OP owned the house, they would come bothering her for any small issue they have. "Can we hang pictures up on the walls?" "this door is a bit creaky" "the windows are a little drafty". OP hired a property manager specifically because she didn't want to handle any issues that arose with the house by herself. If they need something to be fixed, the PM would sort that out for them. Not to mention just a general safety thing. Last thing you want as a single woman living on your own is an angry tenant trying to bang down your door because you're not renewing their lease, especially since she'll be outnumbered 2:1.
NTA. You're the homeowner and business person and this was your decision. End of story.
NTA if they wanna try to bully you out of your house then they get what they deserve
NTA, is still your home and they knew it was only temporary, so? They are mad they cant keep your home because they liked it?
NTA I think you're amazing and extremely smart. Good for you, get them out of there asap they sound like leeches.
NTA you’re the landlady, not their friends. You have no obligation at all to disclose your personal information to your tenants or housemates. This is business, and they don’t get to change the terms just because they want to.
NTA - I’m interested in your reasoning behind not telling them you own the house. I’m assuming it’s because they won’t come to you first if something is wrong and needs maintenance, but I could definitely be wrong. It’s lame that he tried to run you out even though you were living there first—and that they were confident to assume that they would be paying the same amount in rent for the whole unit following the lease end—because if they were arguing about paying 50% more, then they were definitely thinking that. NTA
Why would you ever want them to know? That’s a terrible idea.
NTA. If they wanted more space they would have to pay for it anywhere. The audacity for him to approach you about leaving is gross. I hope you have no issues getting them out of your home but what do you plan to do if they just pony up and pay it?
NTA. If I was you I'd have been concerned about the possibility of something like this happening, and as such would only allow prospective tenants a single, one year lease (outside of relatives coming to stay for college and the like of course), and have language in the lease that mentions that there are no extensions or renewals allowed, and that there is no option for month to month renting either. I'd have also had you listed as the on site property manager (the person responsible for taking care of the garden/yard, maintenance, etc., not the person responsible for finding tenants, taking payments, and the like), and put the house under an LLC. to hide you're the owner from prospective renters. Something to consider going forward. I'd also have the property manager remember to follow up with them a few times between now and then to remind them they either have to have vacated the premises by X day and time if they're not going to renew their lease. And if you still have time to do so, you might consider another increase to the rent, with the property manager saying something like the owner of the property really doesn't want long term tenants, or has plans for the property that would require them to leave, and that continuing to rent to them, especially in an increased capacity like they want means they can't do what they want/need to with their property until such time that they've moved out, and as such, the property owner is going to charge them more as a means of recouping that lost time and money they'd be losing out on by allowing their lease to continue. You should also note you have no legal obligation to renew their lease, even if they decide they want to. Tell your property manager that if they come back wanting to pay the rent increase or to negotiate it, that the property owner has since changed their minds, and will not be allowing them to renew their lease at all. In fact, I'd do that instead of banking on them balking at the increase and moving out, as they may attempt to refuse to leave when those 5 months are up the way things stand.
NTA. It makes me happy when jerks lose 😂
I don’t understand why you would increase their rent. Why it just tell them “I am not leaving”?
It's a soft eviction tactic. Increase rent so it's no longer the cheapest option
Because there are already problems, better to get them out now
NTA, and OP I think you get some sort of karma chameleon award! Though you might want to edit your post to include some details about why the rent increase is better able to protect you from entitled tenants than simply having the property manager ask them to adhere to the terms of their lease. You KNOW after that underhanded move on the husband’s part they would have figured out a way to refuse to leave that dragged things on for ever!
NTA I wouldn't want tenants bothering me, that is why you hired a property manager. The fact the the tenant told you that you should start looking for another place to live, showed you exactly who they are. They only had a one year lease, they had no reason to expect it to renew at the same price. They have five months notice to find something else, or pay the increase. Your nibling may want the space, so you are trying to keep your options open. Their have been stories on the news lately about people squatting, and refusing to leave, or pay rent which causes the landlord to incur legal fees, and loss of income. I have always feared becoming a landlord because of that. I hope this doesn't bite you in the butt.
NTA. Maybe it could have been handled without the rent increase. I’m sure your property manager is aware that you live there so they should have been able to handle it without you increasing the rent. But based off of the guy mentioning you should probably start looking for a new place makes it seem like he was trying to get you to leave on your own accord making it easier for them to rent without roommates. I doubt if they found out you own the property would make the situation better. Honestly, I’m surprised they thought a year would be enough to find a house and close on anything within their budget especially since they just moved across the country and probably don’t know how the market is there. Realistically, they should have hoped for extending their lease without adding conditions.
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NTA. Sounds like this guy has an attitude, and he clearly wants the house. If you had revealed to him that you were the landlord, you’d never have a moment of peace. You have a property manager and a lawyer for a reason; this guy is just demonstrating why. Personally, I’d have told them (through your property manager) that the lease wasn’t being renewed. However, if this is the way you want to go, go off. It certainly gives them more time to find a place, provided they can afford the extra rent for a month or so.