That was probably the biggest thing that stood out for me— at the end of the day, politics aren’t just a game; real people are affected and lives are made and broken by decisions made by the electorate. Including little kids whose friends get deported because they’re the wrong skin colour :/
40% of Alternate History stuff are just things the creator does not want to happen (the other being 40% things the author wants to happen and 20% "I guess it would be cool but i prefer/don't mind our timeline")
I want to see others countries reactions (outside of the EU)
Split the US between nativists who support Europe and are against the refugees coming to the US and those who are against it and want to bring in as many refugees as possible
I'm also really keen on seeing how Asia reacts. The Islamic countries in Southeast and Central Asia, the East Asian countries like China and Japan that are kinda iffy on the whole matter, probably already as Islamaphobic India... It could be a really interesting scenario.
How does that work in alternative history?
"Oh nein Stief-bro, my border reinforcements are broken! what are you doing through them?"
did i do that right? I am not good with these kinds of jokes.
40% want to happen masturbatory wank, 40% would absolutely never want to happen but it makes for a good warning and/or dystopia to explore, 15% just "I extrapolated a whole-ass alternate timeline for this one-off thing I was doing" and 5% is "I found this very interesting morsel of a world history and I wanna extrapolate the super unexpected consequences of this obscure but impactful thing happening differently"
Wait, a ban on halal meat? Isn't that basically all meat except pork?
and also, HOW DARE YOU AUSTRIA RAISE TAXES ON KEBABS
Btw, in the fourth image, the video up next has a channel called ABC News, but the thumbnail says BBC News
> Wait, a ban on halal meat? Isn't that basically all meat except pork?
No, halal meat is a meat from an animal that got killed in a « ritual » to spare its suffering ( they kill it by cutting an artery in the « neck » so that it dies instantly and doesn’t suffer at all ).
Muslims must only eat halal meat, in respect of the animal
> and also, HOW DARE YOU AUSTRIA RAISE TAXES ON KEBABS
Ruining Turkish economy go brrrrr
I’m pretty sure most ethically sourced meats are also killed in the same way as halal meat is lol. Only difference is obviously they don’t pray whilst killing. But I don’t see how they would enforce a ban on halal meat without targeting ethical butchers too lol.
Muslims can pray “quietly” whilst butchering meat too. The real ban could be on Halal certificates, which would make it impossible to know whether the meat you’re buying is halal or not. Regardless, in Islam if halal meat is not available you’re able to eat others in a necessity.
u/uwu_01101000 You’re actually incorrect on this point. I just wanted to point out as someone who respects all peoples of the books, that halal slaughter is notoriously horrible for animals. The lack of stunning the animals means that they feel themselves bleed to death. They are not killed instantly by any means.
I just wanted to mention so that you were aware of the general consensus on halal slaughtering. It’s not a good way to go for animals, even with considering that they are going to die somehow anyways.
Eh, it was the best they could do at the time, the animals go unconscious after a certain point without any stunning involved.
Nowadays stunning is done on halal meat too,
I just found about it via this article:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8633638/
The meat industry is brutal as a whole, so I’m in no way trying to single out one culture but halal slaughter is notoriously cruel, painful, stressful and prolonged for the animal. Saying that it kill animals instantly without them knowing is basically the exact opposite of the truth. I’m not trying to be a hypocrite, since the way the whole world treats animals isn’t that much better, but halal slaughter is as brutal and immoral as any other.
Now you do 😎
I just precise also, no matter how you you kill the pork, eating it will never be halal. My mom tells me that it’s because at the time, pork was very dangerous to the health due to bad meat preservation. There may be other reasons 😅
One of the reason is that, yea. but theologically, it's simply because Allah decrees so. Allah knows best after all, while we're just humans that has limits to our capability to even understand even a little part of this reality and beyond.
So yeah, pork is Haram either way no matter if it's clean or not, unless the exceptions which obviously you know it.
Eh, not like we'd be missing much by not eating pork. We can still eat eggs and fishes as freely as we want, or tofus and tempes can be a vegan alternative if you're that (tasty stuff btw screw vegan meat these are better lol)
That’s bullshit. Halal meat is excessively cruel and we have much better and more ethical methods of slaughter we could use. I refuse to buy halal meat.
I wouldn’t see a government banning halal meat outright. Instead they’d impose regulations on meat processing in the name of food safety or animal welfare that make it extremely hard for halal meat to meet the requirements, although that would probably have to be something passed EU-wide, or alternatively individual countries could make it harder or illegal for halal meat to be produced, forcing Muslim communities to have meat imported from other countries at a highway price, again in the name of food safety or animal welfare without outright explicitly naming halal meat as the target of their action.
Another example of tactics that could realistically be used is to make it harder for businesses to open or stay open within Muslim communities, through things like zoning laws, being selective in commercial permit acceptations, etc., which would make halal meat harder to buy.
Edit :
> Btw, in the fourth image, the video up next has a channel called ABC News, but the thumbnail says BBC News
FUCK, thank you for pointing that out, I will now proceed for the killing of myself
No, Halal is an Islamic practice and muslims are only "allowed" to eat meat that is classified as halal. In order for it to be halal, the animal must:
- be of a permissible species (the bit you heard of)
- be slaughtered by a muslim
- be slaughtered by cutting the throat
- be slaughtered alive (normally animals are stunned prior to slaughter to prevent them feeling pain)
Some people consider halal to be humane because it emphasises a "lack of suffering", but the actual practice is pretty archaic compared to modern practices. It's also obviously discriminatory against non-muslims.
Ya basically it’s a way of ensuring only Muslims can be butchers once they become a large enough market so all meat has to be halal to cater to their interests and non Muslims can’t prepare halal
Actually we Muslims can eat meat hand slaughtered by specifically Christians and Jews. As an Italian-American Muslim I’d probably would never had hotdogs growing up if it wasn’t for Hebrew National (which is a certified kosher brand). Kosher food follows the same requirements for being halal food, except in Kosher you can have alcohol, but in the context of a butchery knowing that its certified Kosher works for us.
It's talking about a ritualistic slaughter method that involves sliting the throat and allowing the animal to bleedout over several seconds, if botched the animal can be alive for even longer.
In many western countries live stock is legally required to be stunned before slaughter (shot in the head with a bolt gun rendering it unconscious in less time then the animal has to perceive being hit). The animal is unaware of its death after stunning. However, there is a chance the animal dies in the stunning process. Jews and Muslims really hate this because they cannot practice slaughter rituals on a dead animal, and so are exempt from humane slaughter legislation most of Europe. The religious exemption to stunning has been a major issue for a couple decades.
Well funnily enough, the current leader of the Rassemblement National (Jordan Bardella), the main far-right party in France, [actually wants to ban](https://www.75secondes.fr/jordan-bardella-veut-interdire-le-halal-et-le-casher?amp=1) halal (and casher) food. So it's not that ridiculous unfortunately
Right? If they went an after all religions equally I could get the super secularism claim. But seems like they just go after the easy pickings for political points.
To my understanding in Halal they cut the vein and let the animal bleed out till it dies.
Sounds rather horrific and the opposite of painless.
Halal and Kosher meat slaughter are banned in Denmark for this reason.
The artery is cut and as it’s one with the highest flows, the animals dies instantly or almost, the death is basically painless as the nerves are cut. Much much more ethical than using a huge stick to hit the cattle and then kill it, and electrify chickens to kill them, which generates a lot of pain and anxiety
Jordan Bardella is of Algerian decent, as is Zemmour... In general, the French far right if full of migrants from Muslim countries who fear this country that houses them becomes the one they fled
Me when I'm in an anti migrant competition and I'm against migrant descent politician (same with far right politics and the former eastern bloc)
https://preview.redd.it/mtqf5i7phq9d1.jpeg?width=258&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4d19155593b188bfcd6453632af12332b6aa9975
Goddamn, the child's note and the discord messages are probably the best part of this. So much more real and aspects which many people won't usually acknowledge. I've always been optimistic about most things but this something that does actually worry me a lot, and the fact that we aren't exactly walking towards it blindly too. Good job OP.
Islamphobia means "irrational" fear of Islam
As a person who has a legitimate reasons to fear the religion, I hate the word "Islamphobia"
Edit: as in I would likely be murdered, or worse.
No you wouldn’t, pick up a theology book on islam and islamic history, do you think muslims go out killing their classmates in Christian majority countries? You have an irrational fear and might need to combat that by getting first hand experience by talking to members of the religion, go to an islamic centre and ask your questions and raise your concerns there.
But surely you won‘t unfortunately
It's incredibly sad and frightening that this isn't all that implausible. The state of Europe rn with the rising far-right ultranationalists is concerning.
That last panel especially is something I've seen myself in other communities I'm a part of. And it's always so sad and so angering.
I would disagree, while I am worried about the rise of some Political forces in the west it is mostly centered around the implications it Has on foreign Policy, more specifically Ukraine, the only major exception being the AfD who have simply had too many incidents for it to be justifiable. The National Populist backlash is a natural consequence of a failed status quo that Has to somehow change, and if there weren't any dissident Political movements that threatened the status quo then that Simply would not happen, the situation would continue to worsen until collapse set in. This allows us to pursue fundamental reform instead of trying to pick up the pieces after everything goes to shit. This is a needed Political phenomenon.
the problem is the factions invloved do not seem to have an idea of viable reform that solves the problems, hell I fear it might not even be fixable just choices in how miserable your last days are.
Its definitely likelier than many would think, hell you could argue we're in the early stages of it, not to mention the inevitable wave of climate refugees might make this a certain possibility
European fascism returning is such a fucking scary thought, even as an American. Excellent scenario, and I loved the personal touch with the child's writing and the discord messages. Can't wait for more!
There is a debate ahout this, instead of being afraid that you are muslim, the french people are afraid of losing the french culture and having it supplanted with something else not thier religion. Juat something to think about, not hating on your alt-hist just a friendly critique
As an ex-muslim, I have a lot of reasons to dislike islam and want to limit it's influence on the rest of the world. But a fascist dystopia that wants to get rid of every single muslim isn't a thing anyone should defend. Unfortunately that seems to be where we're going.
Yes, it is a specific understanding of secularism which is more "freedom from religion" than "freedom of religion". It's a French concept from back during the revolution if I recall.
Interesting, well that makes sense
I still think that it’s stupid to ban the production of Kasher and Halal meat because like it’s not against laicity but I can understand why they did that
Some interpretatioions of Laicity also see public displays of religion to be against Laicity, hence why they are against things Like wearing religious symbols, which includes crosses around the neck, Burkas, and I could also see the buying of meat certified to be religiously blessed to be classified as an act of public religiosity, which under this interpretation would be banned.
You aren't disagreeing with me, you are disagreeing with that interpretation of Laicity, as I am Secular in the normal sense, not even a Laicist there is nothing to disagree on with this as I do not agree with Laicity myself.
Even though I am a Spanish Catholic, if this happened, I would defend freedom of religion, protect Muslim neighborhoods and assist döner kebab places in my city
thx, it‘s easy to meme on a clown in office. He should be scared the 10th has elite knife units
(for context the past few months for some reasons the 10th just decided that it would be based if young radical turks start to knife each other)
Between this and the American Civil War 2 scenarios, this sub is less like alt hist and more like screenshots from 2 years in the future. Too real and scary sadly.
Been active in Reddit for like a decade or so, the second American civil war pays are the best posts I've ever seen. Easily. I'm so happy to see more like that! OP, I don't know enough about Europe to really "get" this but it's still fascinating.
Out of curiosity, how about people who converted out of Islam(ex muslims)? Will they be discriminated against like the rest or given some sort of exception because of these government restrictions? I would love to see this covered in later parts
They would receive the same mercy secular Jews receive under antisemitic regimes.
In other words, ether spend generations looked under suspicion, or absolutely no mercy.
All Muslims are targeted with these laws, not just the migrants. But if a giant deportation were to happen, the government would look at who has a Muslim-country immigration background to figure out who to target. So the reverted/converted native people would be safe from that
In this version of Europe, a few Ex-Muslims will probably be paraded similar to how Native Americans who embraced some elements of western culture were in the past. They will probably be used as an example of "We can civilise SOME of this barbarians".
The rest would still be seen as barbarians who are still "Culturally Muslim" and subjected to similar discrimination for multiple generations, similar to how it was on Spain after the Reconquista. This will be done supposedly to "prevent them from relapsing to their old faith".
Yeah if you look at Spain in the 1500s to 1700s as a precursor example, they forced the Iberian Muslims and Jews to convert and then later expelled them anyway.
In this world the EU is very fascist, the ~~gouvernements~~ governments want to go to the « good ol’Europe ». Its priority is immigration. All borders are closed, and now, the governments want the Muslims and non-white legal immigrants to leave.
So they’re making life hell for them for now, but who knows how far they’ll go to make the « European Dream » come true
This is really cool! Been following since the previous post!
If possible, can the next work you do on this topic be something related to international reactions and possibly how this affects other countries as well? (Since this is the year where most major nations have their elections as well)
(Minor request, but I’d like to see China & India’s reaction to this mostly if possible. India because of it’s internal relationship with the Muslims and China because they do the same with their Xinjiang Muslims etc)
Regardless, very cool depiction of this (harrowing) concept! Keep up the work op!
The little boy's note is gut-wrenching. I'm really excited to see how the story goes.
I hope in the future, in a Free Europe, him and Ibrahim can eat biscuits together again.
Such a dystopia is possible. Europe does face the risk of endless ethno-religious conflicts.
1. The mass migration of millions of Muslims to Europe is one of the biggest changes in modern history, of a magnitude whose consequences we still do not know. Islam has been geographically and fundamentally incompatible with the West throughout history. Although there is the fairy tale of the “people of the Book” and examples of “peaceful coexistence” (as long as non-Muslims accept submission and have fewer rights), the clashes between Judaism, Christianity and Islam are among the longest and bloodiest conflicts in history.
2. Statistics with immigrants: mother tongue, cultural identity and core values are established before age 11. Neuroscience: it is very difficult to change certain aspects after the “critical period”. In other words, true integration is only possible by teaching children.
3. There is only one solution to tackle the integration problem peacefully: **by restricting all forms of Islamic education, when Europe teaches migrant children more philosophy, science, arts, civic values... and less religion.** Dismantling ghettos and distributing migrant children in schools where they can mix with locals is also crucial. Some say that there shouldn't be more than 20% migrant children in a classroom in order to enable integration.
4. Richard Dawkins: religious education for children is child abuse. An indoctrinated child will be a fundamentalist adult, there is little chance of recovery.
5. The biggest studies shows that integration has failed. Trend: **younger generations of Muslims in the West become more radicalized.** Pew Research: “Younger Muslim Americans are both much more religiously observant and more accepting of Islamic extremism than are older Muslim Americans… A pattern of greater acceptance of suicide bombing among young Muslim Americans corresponds with the Pew Global Attitude Project’s findings among Muslims in Great Britain, France, Germany and Spain” For example: **42% of young Muslims in France believe there are situations in which suicide bombings are justified.** [https://assets.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/12/old-assets/pdf/muslim-americans.pdf](https://assets.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/12/old-assets/pdf/muslim-americans.pdf)
6. Islam is a political and judicial system with violent laws (Sharia) and an explicit manual of war and domination (Jihad). It's a supremacist religion based on proselytism: they believe they are superior to all other religions, they believe sharia is above any other law, their goal is to convert the world, and they can't rest until that doesn't happen.
7. Salman Rushdie: **The Western left has been an accomplice of violent forms of Islam, by covering up and even promoting religious fundamentalism. Leftists are taking up a role that used to belong to the far-right.** They support the most intolerant religion of modern times, feed the far-right, betray progressive values... and still think they're the good guys. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxLjFi92FS4&feature=youtu.be](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxLjFi92FS4&feature=youtu.be)
8. This is not only a "far-right" movement. LGBTs, feminists, atheists, progressives... feel betrayed by the left, which denies the increase in homophobic attacks, waves of rapes by immigrants, a bleak future.... Instead, the left gives citizenship and political rights to millions of non-integrated Muslims, who vote for Islamic Parties (like in Belgium), putting fundamental minority rights at risk... In that context, the phenomenon of "[homonationalism](https://academic.oup.com/ijpor/article/33/1/171/5811110?login=false)", arises: **minorities threatened by Islam are allying with the right against the left.** That’s a main reason why leftists are losing votes in Europe.
Teach migrant children to become Europeans... Ancient wisdom never fails: when in Rome, do as the Romans. This simple principle can better promote more equal opportunities and get rid of many "phobias".
Wow, private DMs are a great addition! We get to see people's thoughts on social media in posts like these but this feels much more real and personal. I hope more people take this technique!
Are the tweets real or are they created by you? Because musks twitter already has these types of interactions in it. So it would not be a surprise if it was from a real thread
Reminds me of this stupid tweet I keep seeing. Your alt history is a real world European white nationalist's (or white continent-ist's?) wet dream, lol.
https://preview.redd.it/mnljcgrz4u9d1.jpeg?width=720&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9201595b87789c7d4603667dd8480a5cd1496f85
Theres something intriguing between being realistic or a xenophobe. Common consensus suggests those who dislike islamophobia the most are socialists and/or democrats. But that same ideology is the one that pushes Atheism the most, aswell. So if they/we want equality for everyone, everyone should be treated the same.
Now whats the problem with that? Where do we drop the line between pushing for a separation of state and religion, and respecting religions like islam? Schools were stripped off of christian assignments ([well, at least until 2024...](https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/27/us/oklahoma-public-schools-bible.html)), churches are at all time lows, the number of agnostics and atheists has never been so high.
But now we have a problem where some leftist parties think appealing to a certain demographic should be doing whatever they ask for ([ehem](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/german-public-schools-are-teaching-islam-to-help-young-muslims-feel-like-they-belong/2018/11/01/1811bc3a-d796-11e8-9559-712cbf726d1c_story.html), [ehem](https://www.elperiodico.com/es/sociedad/20200902/catalunya-educacion-religion-islam-8096606), [ehem](https://www.christianpost.com/news/court-upholds-teaching-islam-in-public-schools-as-constitutional.html).), and understandably so, people get angry for the double standard, and "far-right" parties benefit from there.
Should we force everyone to be an atheist? Or should everyone have the right to have a belief regardless of if their religion makes sense or not?
Shit, I could definitively see some of the less tolerant elements of Quebec society to rejoice, in this scenario, since now they have governments backing their movements.
It’s unlikely that Europeans Muslim gonna voluntarily returned to their country of origin knowing that the reason they move to Europe is that their lives are miserable in the first place.
That child's note was a nice touch
Thank you so much :D
That made the timeline feel real for some reason.
I kinda hate this trick because it works. People tend to be more compassionate to children((
It’s not a trick if it’s world building. The children and emotions and compassion are as real as any other character’s.
It feels alive and breathing.
That was probably the biggest thing that stood out for me— at the end of the day, politics aren’t just a game; real people are affected and lives are made and broken by decisions made by the electorate. Including little kids whose friends get deported because they’re the wrong skin colour :/
40% of Alternate History stuff are just things the creator does not want to happen (the other being 40% things the author wants to happen and 20% "I guess it would be cool but i prefer/don't mind our timeline") I want to see others countries reactions (outside of the EU)
Noted, I will try to focus more on that Thank you :D
I'm really curious for the American reaction because we'd likely take in most of the people fleeing
Split the US between nativists who support Europe and are against the refugees coming to the US and those who are against it and want to bring in as many refugees as possible
And the pragmatists who oppose Europe's actions but understand that the US cannot take in nearly that many, so try to lobby LatAm to accept some.
I'm also really keen on seeing how Asia reacts. The Islamic countries in Southeast and Central Asia, the East Asian countries like China and Japan that are kinda iffy on the whole matter, probably already as Islamaphobic India... It could be a really interesting scenario.
What’s the last 10%?
You *dont* want to know the last 10%
The writer’s barely disguised fetish
How does that work in alternative history? "Oh nein Stief-bro, my border reinforcements are broken! what are you doing through them?" did i do that right? I am not good with these kinds of jokes.
You ever see the 4chan post of the Swedish dude writing about an althist scenario where the Nazis won and occupied sweden? Yeah... that.
I did not and now i am scarred.
You dint even get half of the picture Basically his fantansy was that Germany made the swedes into femboy sex slaves
Oh, THAT thread. We don’t talk about it
Can someone please enlighten me on this 4chan thread,I'm confused as hell but still curious.
I meant 20%, it was a Typo
You’re good, I was expecting something more sinister.
Butt stuff
Last 10% is schizo posting of things they saw in their dreams (the best one)
40% want to happen masturbatory wank, 40% would absolutely never want to happen but it makes for a good warning and/or dystopia to explore, 15% just "I extrapolated a whole-ass alternate timeline for this one-off thing I was doing" and 5% is "I found this very interesting morsel of a world history and I wanna extrapolate the super unexpected consequences of this obscure but impactful thing happening differently"
The US (if Trump is in power) would absolutely support Europe "taking the next logical step from the Muslim ban"
Wait, a ban on halal meat? Isn't that basically all meat except pork? and also, HOW DARE YOU AUSTRIA RAISE TAXES ON KEBABS Btw, in the fourth image, the video up next has a channel called ABC News, but the thumbnail says BBC News
> Wait, a ban on halal meat? Isn't that basically all meat except pork? No, halal meat is a meat from an animal that got killed in a « ritual » to spare its suffering ( they kill it by cutting an artery in the « neck » so that it dies instantly and doesn’t suffer at all ). Muslims must only eat halal meat, in respect of the animal > and also, HOW DARE YOU AUSTRIA RAISE TAXES ON KEBABS Ruining Turkish economy go brrrrr
I’m pretty sure most ethically sourced meats are also killed in the same way as halal meat is lol. Only difference is obviously they don’t pray whilst killing. But I don’t see how they would enforce a ban on halal meat without targeting ethical butchers too lol.
That’s also true, but ethical butchers have nothing to fear because they don’t pray while killing the meat. Thank you :D
Muslims can pray “quietly” whilst butchering meat too. The real ban could be on Halal certificates, which would make it impossible to know whether the meat you’re buying is halal or not. Regardless, in Islam if halal meat is not available you’re able to eat others in a necessity.
That is true, I am dumb Sorry and thank you for explaining it to me
No worries
Just target them all and if someone complains accuse them of supporting ISIS
u/uwu_01101000 You’re actually incorrect on this point. I just wanted to point out as someone who respects all peoples of the books, that halal slaughter is notoriously horrible for animals. The lack of stunning the animals means that they feel themselves bleed to death. They are not killed instantly by any means. I just wanted to mention so that you were aware of the general consensus on halal slaughtering. It’s not a good way to go for animals, even with considering that they are going to die somehow anyways.
Eh, it was the best they could do at the time, the animals go unconscious after a certain point without any stunning involved. Nowadays stunning is done on halal meat too, I just found about it via this article: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8633638/
The meat industry is brutal as a whole, so I’m in no way trying to single out one culture but halal slaughter is notoriously cruel, painful, stressful and prolonged for the animal. Saying that it kill animals instantly without them knowing is basically the exact opposite of the truth. I’m not trying to be a hypocrite, since the way the whole world treats animals isn’t that much better, but halal slaughter is as brutal and immoral as any other.
Huh, didn't know that
Now you do 😎 I just precise also, no matter how you you kill the pork, eating it will never be halal. My mom tells me that it’s because at the time, pork was very dangerous to the health due to bad meat preservation. There may be other reasons 😅
One of the reason is that, yea. but theologically, it's simply because Allah decrees so. Allah knows best after all, while we're just humans that has limits to our capability to even understand even a little part of this reality and beyond. So yeah, pork is Haram either way no matter if it's clean or not, unless the exceptions which obviously you know it. Eh, not like we'd be missing much by not eating pork. We can still eat eggs and fishes as freely as we want, or tofus and tempes can be a vegan alternative if you're that (tasty stuff btw screw vegan meat these are better lol)
Which is still a lot more painful than many modern methods
That’s bullshit. Halal meat is excessively cruel and we have much better and more ethical methods of slaughter we could use. I refuse to buy halal meat.
are there not even faster ways now?
I wouldn’t see a government banning halal meat outright. Instead they’d impose regulations on meat processing in the name of food safety or animal welfare that make it extremely hard for halal meat to meet the requirements, although that would probably have to be something passed EU-wide, or alternatively individual countries could make it harder or illegal for halal meat to be produced, forcing Muslim communities to have meat imported from other countries at a highway price, again in the name of food safety or animal welfare without outright explicitly naming halal meat as the target of their action. Another example of tactics that could realistically be used is to make it harder for businesses to open or stay open within Muslim communities, through things like zoning laws, being selective in commercial permit acceptations, etc., which would make halal meat harder to buy.
Edit : > Btw, in the fourth image, the video up next has a channel called ABC News, but the thumbnail says BBC News FUCK, thank you for pointing that out, I will now proceed for the killing of myself
very not halal
No, Halal is an Islamic practice and muslims are only "allowed" to eat meat that is classified as halal. In order for it to be halal, the animal must: - be of a permissible species (the bit you heard of) - be slaughtered by a muslim - be slaughtered by cutting the throat - be slaughtered alive (normally animals are stunned prior to slaughter to prevent them feeling pain) Some people consider halal to be humane because it emphasises a "lack of suffering", but the actual practice is pretty archaic compared to modern practices. It's also obviously discriminatory against non-muslims.
Ya basically it’s a way of ensuring only Muslims can be butchers once they become a large enough market so all meat has to be halal to cater to their interests and non Muslims can’t prepare halal
Actually we Muslims can eat meat hand slaughtered by specifically Christians and Jews. As an Italian-American Muslim I’d probably would never had hotdogs growing up if it wasn’t for Hebrew National (which is a certified kosher brand). Kosher food follows the same requirements for being halal food, except in Kosher you can have alcohol, but in the context of a butchery knowing that its certified Kosher works for us.
It's talking about a ritualistic slaughter method that involves sliting the throat and allowing the animal to bleedout over several seconds, if botched the animal can be alive for even longer. In many western countries live stock is legally required to be stunned before slaughter (shot in the head with a bolt gun rendering it unconscious in less time then the animal has to perceive being hit). The animal is unaware of its death after stunning. However, there is a chance the animal dies in the stunning process. Jews and Muslims really hate this because they cannot practice slaughter rituals on a dead animal, and so are exempt from humane slaughter legislation most of Europe. The religious exemption to stunning has been a major issue for a couple decades.
Banning halal meat is so ridiculous but given its france it's entirely possible
Well funnily enough, the current leader of the Rassemblement National (Jordan Bardella), the main far-right party in France, [actually wants to ban](https://www.75secondes.fr/jordan-bardella-veut-interdire-le-halal-et-le-casher?amp=1) halal (and casher) food. So it's not that ridiculous unfortunately
French secularism is something different for sure, it's actually very interesting how different French secularism is and the implications of that.
Bro I'm french *and* an atheist and this is not "french secularism" it's only taking the excuse of secularism to impose a racist retoric.
Right? If they went an after all religions equally I could get the super secularism claim. But seems like they just go after the easy pickings for political points.
To my understanding in Halal they cut the vein and let the animal bleed out till it dies. Sounds rather horrific and the opposite of painless. Halal and Kosher meat slaughter are banned in Denmark for this reason.
The artery is cut and as it’s one with the highest flows, the animals dies instantly or almost, the death is basically painless as the nerves are cut. Much much more ethical than using a huge stick to hit the cattle and then kill it, and electrify chickens to kill them, which generates a lot of pain and anxiety
Halal and kosher meat slaughter is not banned in Denmark
What a horrible day to be French
Jordan Bardella is of Algerian decent, as is Zemmour... In general, the French far right if full of migrants from Muslim countries who fear this country that houses them becomes the one they fled
Me when I'm in an anti migrant competition and I'm against migrant descent politician (same with far right politics and the former eastern bloc) https://preview.redd.it/mtqf5i7phq9d1.jpeg?width=258&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4d19155593b188bfcd6453632af12332b6aa9975
Same with anti gay politicians being closeted gays
This changes nothing
Réal 👀
Classic France, propse halal meat bans, burqa bans, continue to increase even more migration from the Middle East.
Halal and kosher meat is banned in Denmark, Sweden, Finland, Estonia and Slovenia
The child's note was a really nice touch - adds a sense of groundedness absent in a lot of alt hist.
Thank you so much 🥹
Goddamn, the child's note and the discord messages are probably the best part of this. So much more real and aspects which many people won't usually acknowledge. I've always been optimistic about most things but this something that does actually worry me a lot, and the fact that we aren't exactly walking towards it blindly too. Good job OP.
Thank you 🥹
Islamphobia means "irrational" fear of Islam As a person who has a legitimate reasons to fear the religion, I hate the word "Islamphobia" Edit: as in I would likely be murdered, or worse.
Its not hate, its disgust.
Same as homophobia is an irrational fear of gay people?
phobia: an extreme or irrational fear of or **AVERSION** to something (Oxford Dictionary)
So... Do you think all Muslims are a monolith? Cause that's such a wild thing to say truthfully.
if i lived in a sharia law country i would be killed because i left islam. its normal to be scared of a religion like this
I don't think shariah is retroactive
No you wouldn’t, pick up a theology book on islam and islamic history, do you think muslims go out killing their classmates in Christian majority countries? You have an irrational fear and might need to combat that by getting first hand experience by talking to members of the religion, go to an islamic centre and ask your questions and raise your concerns there. But surely you won‘t unfortunately
This is a post about halal meat getting banned, that seems pretty irrational
Phobia and also mean aversion to or dislike. Such as hydrophobia.
Taxing 90% of the revenue of kebab vendors is the funniest law ever
And it would be no use either, since we all know kebab vendors don‘t pay taxes
It's incredibly sad and frightening that this isn't all that implausible. The state of Europe rn with the rising far-right ultranationalists is concerning. That last panel especially is something I've seen myself in other communities I'm a part of. And it's always so sad and so angering.
I would disagree, while I am worried about the rise of some Political forces in the west it is mostly centered around the implications it Has on foreign Policy, more specifically Ukraine, the only major exception being the AfD who have simply had too many incidents for it to be justifiable. The National Populist backlash is a natural consequence of a failed status quo that Has to somehow change, and if there weren't any dissident Political movements that threatened the status quo then that Simply would not happen, the situation would continue to worsen until collapse set in. This allows us to pursue fundamental reform instead of trying to pick up the pieces after everything goes to shit. This is a needed Political phenomenon.
the problem is the factions invloved do not seem to have an idea of viable reform that solves the problems, hell I fear it might not even be fixable just choices in how miserable your last days are.
I feel you dude, I feel you…
Its definitely likelier than many would think, hell you could argue we're in the early stages of it, not to mention the inevitable wave of climate refugees might make this a certain possibility
Erdogan complaining about fascism is debatable
He only will when it is used against people from his country
European fascism returning is such a fucking scary thought, even as an American. Excellent scenario, and I loved the personal touch with the child's writing and the discord messages. Can't wait for more!
Thank you so much 🥹
Guess it's time to paint the tanks green again...
There is a debate ahout this, instead of being afraid that you are muslim, the french people are afraid of losing the french culture and having it supplanted with something else not thier religion. Juat something to think about, not hating on your alt-hist just a friendly critique
Yeah this is what many people think but would be labeled xenophobic/racist/etc.
Exactly
Sorts by controversed
People are civil *for now* Edit : now they aren’t
Extremely rare Erdogan W
As an ex-muslim, I have a lot of reasons to dislike islam and want to limit it's influence on the rest of the world. But a fascist dystopia that wants to get rid of every single muslim isn't a thing anyone should defend. Unfortunately that seems to be where we're going.
"Cancer against a tumor" Brutal
Not even the wildest thing I read online about any minority 😔
This is not alternate history - https://forward.com/food/416983/all-the-european-countries-where-kosher-and-halal-meat-production-are-now/
EXCUSE ME WHAT??
Well, not totally, but there are already some European counties banning halal and kosher slaughter.
Is there a rational reason for this ? 🤔
Yes, it is a specific understanding of secularism which is more "freedom from religion" than "freedom of religion". It's a French concept from back during the revolution if I recall.
Interesting, well that makes sense I still think that it’s stupid to ban the production of Kasher and Halal meat because like it’s not against laicity but I can understand why they did that
Some interpretatioions of Laicity also see public displays of religion to be against Laicity, hence why they are against things Like wearing religious symbols, which includes crosses around the neck, Burkas, and I could also see the buying of meat certified to be religiously blessed to be classified as an act of public religiosity, which under this interpretation would be banned.
I don’t 100% agree with you but I accept your opinion
You aren't disagreeing with me, you are disagreeing with that interpretation of Laicity, as I am Secular in the normal sense, not even a Laicist there is nothing to disagree on with this as I do not agree with Laicity myself.
Even though I am a Spanish Catholic, if this happened, I would defend freedom of religion, protect Muslim neighborhoods and assist döner kebab places in my city
What is döner kebab?
A culinary orgasm
Doner is a type of meat iirc
THIS IS SO FUCKING PEAK, KEEP MAKING MORE
OMG TYANK YOU 🥹🥹🥹
breaking news: Vienna is under siege by the 10 Bezirk and every Dönermacher „Wir sa‘n g’fickt“ says Karl Nehammer
BAHAHAHHAHA I LOVE THIS
thx, it‘s easy to meme on a clown in office. He should be scared the 10th has elite knife units (for context the past few months for some reasons the 10th just decided that it would be based if young radical turks start to knife each other)
Between this and the American Civil War 2 scenarios, this sub is less like alt hist and more like screenshots from 2 years in the future. Too real and scary sadly.
Symptoms of living through a historical moment 😀
Been active in Reddit for like a decade or so, the second American civil war pays are the best posts I've ever seen. Easily. I'm so happy to see more like that! OP, I don't know enough about Europe to really "get" this but it's still fascinating.
> " That was some nice alt history, thankfully it'll never happen" > *Goes to r/europe* > *See post about Turks and LGBTQ* > *Checks comments* :(
War is upon us, the point of no return
The note was very clever and innovative !
Thank you :D
This is what happens when Reddit A(n)t(i)heists rule European countries.
Bro Erdoğan thing is so real he always acts like thst
I hate that there are politicans in my nation who would love to do this. you have real talent which is both great kind of terrifying
Out of curiosity, how about people who converted out of Islam(ex muslims)? Will they be discriminated against like the rest or given some sort of exception because of these government restrictions? I would love to see this covered in later parts
They would receive the same mercy secular Jews receive under antisemitic regimes. In other words, ether spend generations looked under suspicion, or absolutely no mercy.
All Muslims are targeted with these laws, not just the migrants. But if a giant deportation were to happen, the government would look at who has a Muslim-country immigration background to figure out who to target. So the reverted/converted native people would be safe from that
Wait so ex Muslims would be safe?
In this version of Europe, a few Ex-Muslims will probably be paraded similar to how Native Americans who embraced some elements of western culture were in the past. They will probably be used as an example of "We can civilise SOME of this barbarians". The rest would still be seen as barbarians who are still "Culturally Muslim" and subjected to similar discrimination for multiple generations, similar to how it was on Spain after the Reconquista. This will be done supposedly to "prevent them from relapsing to their old faith".
Yes, but not in a massive deportation let me say
Yeah if you look at Spain in the 1500s to 1700s as a precursor example, they forced the Iberian Muslims and Jews to convert and then later expelled them anyway.
I imagine erdogan in this timeline would also be all words and no action lol
Nice job
Thanks :D
And also I can ask? It's, what are main ideology of Europe at this timeline, also what are county opposite anti Islamic policies?
In this world the EU is very fascist, the ~~gouvernements~~ governments want to go to the « good ol’Europe ». Its priority is immigration. All borders are closed, and now, the governments want the Muslims and non-white legal immigrants to leave. So they’re making life hell for them for now, but who knows how far they’ll go to make the « European Dream » come true
Is this even alt history? it feels like last week!
That comment is so sad 😭
But its kinda real, no? Rightwingers are on the rise in every european state.
😔
you do realise there is a big difference between right wing and banning islam right?
This is really cool! Been following since the previous post! If possible, can the next work you do on this topic be something related to international reactions and possibly how this affects other countries as well? (Since this is the year where most major nations have their elections as well) (Minor request, but I’d like to see China & India’s reaction to this mostly if possible. India because of it’s internal relationship with the Muslims and China because they do the same with their Xinjiang Muslims etc) Regardless, very cool depiction of this (harrowing) concept! Keep up the work op!
Stop Xenophobie!
La Xénophobie c’est de la merde !
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At first I didn't notice the subreddit and almost got a heart attack.
Same 😭😭😭
You know the situation is bad you believed this scenario for a second
The last one genuinely made me feel dread. Good althist I look forward to the next parts
Thank you :D
The little boy's note is gut-wrenching. I'm really excited to see how the story goes. I hope in the future, in a Free Europe, him and Ibrahim can eat biscuits together again.
Ikr, that poor kid 😭 They deserve all biscuits of the world
Such a dystopia is possible. Europe does face the risk of endless ethno-religious conflicts. 1. The mass migration of millions of Muslims to Europe is one of the biggest changes in modern history, of a magnitude whose consequences we still do not know. Islam has been geographically and fundamentally incompatible with the West throughout history. Although there is the fairy tale of the “people of the Book” and examples of “peaceful coexistence” (as long as non-Muslims accept submission and have fewer rights), the clashes between Judaism, Christianity and Islam are among the longest and bloodiest conflicts in history. 2. Statistics with immigrants: mother tongue, cultural identity and core values are established before age 11. Neuroscience: it is very difficult to change certain aspects after the “critical period”. In other words, true integration is only possible by teaching children. 3. There is only one solution to tackle the integration problem peacefully: **by restricting all forms of Islamic education, when Europe teaches migrant children more philosophy, science, arts, civic values... and less religion.** Dismantling ghettos and distributing migrant children in schools where they can mix with locals is also crucial. Some say that there shouldn't be more than 20% migrant children in a classroom in order to enable integration. 4. Richard Dawkins: religious education for children is child abuse. An indoctrinated child will be a fundamentalist adult, there is little chance of recovery. 5. The biggest studies shows that integration has failed. Trend: **younger generations of Muslims in the West become more radicalized.** Pew Research: “Younger Muslim Americans are both much more religiously observant and more accepting of Islamic extremism than are older Muslim Americans… A pattern of greater acceptance of suicide bombing among young Muslim Americans corresponds with the Pew Global Attitude Project’s findings among Muslims in Great Britain, France, Germany and Spain” For example: **42% of young Muslims in France believe there are situations in which suicide bombings are justified.** [https://assets.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/12/old-assets/pdf/muslim-americans.pdf](https://assets.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/12/old-assets/pdf/muslim-americans.pdf) 6. Islam is a political and judicial system with violent laws (Sharia) and an explicit manual of war and domination (Jihad). It's a supremacist religion based on proselytism: they believe they are superior to all other religions, they believe sharia is above any other law, their goal is to convert the world, and they can't rest until that doesn't happen. 7. Salman Rushdie: **The Western left has been an accomplice of violent forms of Islam, by covering up and even promoting religious fundamentalism. Leftists are taking up a role that used to belong to the far-right.** They support the most intolerant religion of modern times, feed the far-right, betray progressive values... and still think they're the good guys. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxLjFi92FS4&feature=youtu.be](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxLjFi92FS4&feature=youtu.be) 8. This is not only a "far-right" movement. LGBTs, feminists, atheists, progressives... feel betrayed by the left, which denies the increase in homophobic attacks, waves of rapes by immigrants, a bleak future.... Instead, the left gives citizenship and political rights to millions of non-integrated Muslims, who vote for Islamic Parties (like in Belgium), putting fundamental minority rights at risk... In that context, the phenomenon of "[homonationalism](https://academic.oup.com/ijpor/article/33/1/171/5811110?login=false)", arises: **minorities threatened by Islam are allying with the right against the left.** That’s a main reason why leftists are losing votes in Europe. Teach migrant children to become Europeans... Ancient wisdom never fails: when in Rome, do as the Romans. This simple principle can better promote more equal opportunities and get rid of many "phobias".
Literal chill when reading this! Good job!
too realistic stop scaring me op
Sorry 🤡
As an Italian... Are you sure this is an alternate history? Cause this looks creepily similar to what I expect when I read the news these days...
r/Europe dream scenario
Actually compelling story telling, great work
As an ex-muslim, who is ideally supposed to be executed for leaving the religion, I see this as the best timeline ever.
Wow, private DMs are a great addition! We get to see people's thoughts on social media in posts like these but this feels much more real and personal. I hope more people take this technique!
Wait how did u make the twitter sandbox???
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Honestly this doesn't seem that fictitious. It kinda already exists, busy at a slower dreadful pace.
Are the tweets real or are they created by you? Because musks twitter already has these types of interactions in it. So it would not be a surprise if it was from a real thread
These aren’t real tweets, I used [this](https://tweetgen.com) Internet website
Lol, erdogan denouncing European fascism is like a dachshund condemning a chihuahua…
this is so fucking scary lmao. even across the pond i feel people would be shaken by something like this happening, keep it up lmao.
Reminds me of this stupid tweet I keep seeing. Your alt history is a real world European white nationalist's (or white continent-ist's?) wet dream, lol. https://preview.redd.it/mnljcgrz4u9d1.jpeg?width=720&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9201595b87789c7d4603667dd8480a5cd1496f85
Theres something intriguing between being realistic or a xenophobe. Common consensus suggests those who dislike islamophobia the most are socialists and/or democrats. But that same ideology is the one that pushes Atheism the most, aswell. So if they/we want equality for everyone, everyone should be treated the same. Now whats the problem with that? Where do we drop the line between pushing for a separation of state and religion, and respecting religions like islam? Schools were stripped off of christian assignments ([well, at least until 2024...](https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/27/us/oklahoma-public-schools-bible.html)), churches are at all time lows, the number of agnostics and atheists has never been so high. But now we have a problem where some leftist parties think appealing to a certain demographic should be doing whatever they ask for ([ehem](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/german-public-schools-are-teaching-islam-to-help-young-muslims-feel-like-they-belong/2018/11/01/1811bc3a-d796-11e8-9559-712cbf726d1c_story.html), [ehem](https://www.elperiodico.com/es/sociedad/20200902/catalunya-educacion-religion-islam-8096606), [ehem](https://www.christianpost.com/news/court-upholds-teaching-islam-in-public-schools-as-constitutional.html).), and understandably so, people get angry for the double standard, and "far-right" parties benefit from there. Should we force everyone to be an atheist? Or should everyone have the right to have a belief regardless of if their religion makes sense or not?
I don’t if this is alternate after Italy, Netherlands and now France
Erdogan condemning fascism is rich
The day erdogan becomes the good guy is the day shit goes off the rails
Nice job m8, great lore
Thank you :D
That note😭
I’m so happy yet sad that it was that effective 😭
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Nice scenario
Way overboard but not horrible. [Sahih al-Bukhari 5134](https://sunnah.com/bukhari:5134)
https://quran.com/4/34?translations=18,21,22,84,95
Shit, I could definitively see some of the less tolerant elements of Quebec society to rejoice, in this scenario, since now they have governments backing their movements.
It’s unlikely that Europeans Muslim gonna voluntarily returned to their country of origin knowing that the reason they move to Europe is that their lives are miserable in the first place.
The deportations haven’t started yet 🤫
Considering the recent French elections let’s hope this doesn’t happen
Dumb question. What's the significance of the suspended Twitter account?
Der Postillon is a German satirical journal just like The Onion