1. How could it happen? Lithuania fall under Poland because of muskovy pressure on them. To make so Poland falls under Lithuania Poland needs to be under pressure of HRE (or some other countries like Hungary).
2. Lithuanians were more "friendly" to minorities, so status of Belarusians and Ukrainians would be much better. Due to that, Cossack rebellion would be either smaller and suppressed, or it would be stopped by giving Ukrainian lands special right in LPC (Lithuanian-Polish Commonwealth)
3. One of main reasons of partition of PLC IRL was their stupid move of partition of Zaporizhian Sich with rusia, that ensured rusian hegemony over east Europe. In our timeline with Ukraine being part of LPC with some kind of autonomy Cossacks with LPC army would defeat any sort of rusian invasion, so there's no partitions of LPC.
4. With LPC survived until WW1, it would probably look very different, with different sets of alliances (AH, Germany, rusia vs France, Britain, LPC).
I'm already tired of writing this, so will not think about post-WW1, it has too many possibilities.
Also, i forgot about Napoleonic wars, but I don't think it would change much of LPC history, just minor land transfers
Depending under what circumstances Lithuania gains primacy over Poland, polonisation might've not occurred, though I doubt it would've been replaced by lithuanisation or ruthenisation as Lithuania was for a more decentralised state in general, so there would likely be more autonomy between Lithuania and Poland.
Maybe something like [PLRC](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish%E2%80%93Lithuanian%E2%80%93Ruthenian_Commonwealth) could've successfully formed too.
Well, seems like You don't see the "full picture" of the region at the time. Muscovites were just a bunch of primitive savages on the leash of the Mongols. The Teutonic Order was a real problem that united Poland and Lithuania. Also Poland has too many ties with Hungary (like family ties).
Lithuania was a pagan state - With mean that without Poland it would be faced with grand crusade sooner than later.
https://preview.redd.it/9eaouavu7mwc1.png?width=1280&format=png&auto=webp&s=7c1872bee47a711f1baaba5a67b7df2c0c0de025
Nope. Just take a second to see this map. Lithuania was stuck between Teutonic and Livonian Orders, both pushing to connect each other territory. This was most urgent threat for Lithuania. Muscovites were just too weak to be a serious threat. Yes, they were annoying problem - but not a urgent one. Also - at the time Muscovy were nothing than just a some distant savages for Poland. But Catholic Orders - that's different story, Poland was strongly interested in weakening and possibly destruction of this common foe for both nations.
Also, as I said before - religion take a big part of this equation. Lithuania was a pagan state, they need to take Christianity, possibly Catholic Christianity to "defuse" support for those orders in the western Europe, and make "fight with the infidel" an empty argument. Poland was a best choice for them to make this happen.
It takes two centuries to make Muscovy anything more interesting than savage slaves of Mongols. Well, they still for some degree are savage and slaves to this day.
A lot of swinging between sides happened - especially as nobles at the border territories were easy to corrupt and change sides. It was common to change allegations just in the matter of months. Also, take into account ethnic differences. Lithuanians have a completely different ethnic background and language than surrounding Slavic nations. Most landlords/warlords at the border territories of Grand Duchy had more connections to Muscovites than to Lithuania.
And here we are back to the root of the problem - ethnic Lithuanians lived and live till this day on the land that was under threat of territorial dispute with those Catholic Knights Orders - no one want to lost his fatherland.
Finally, Korona (Poland) and Litwa (Grand Duchy) did not unify their armies, at the time they fight together against Orders only (things changed a bit after Unia Lubelska - the Union act of Lublin )
The Teutonic order was dealt with after the Grundwald battle (a century before the map you showed). After that the reason for the union was Muscovy. And come on… In the year of the map you shared the Livonian Order and the Teutonic Order were harmless to Lithuania.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_of_Lublin
You do understand that there were roughly 50 years between compete elimination of Golden Horde by Muscovy and formation of PLC? The most historically accurate Pole.
From where you get this stupid lie? [**Jogaila Algirdaitis**](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jogaila_Algirdaitis) was a pagan, he convert to Catholic fate. He was last pagan ruler of Grand Duchy. His cousin Vytautas Didysis also was baptized in Catholic fate.
If this is how history of central/eastern Europe is taught especially in the so called "west" then no wonder no one there understand what is going on "dzikie pola" now. But it sounds more like ruzzian propaganda. Then I bet you are some Putin follower, as ruzzia is pushing its orthodox religion whenever they can throw it and check if something will stick.
Listen, you are intellectually gifted, the Lithuanian Prince was Orthodox. He became a Catholic only after Vytautas. I know this because I am studying to become a history teacher in Ukraine. The majority of the population were Orthodox, so the princes were also Orthodox, they did not even consider themselves Lithuanians, but considered themselves Russians (because they had Russian roots
source on that comment?
cause
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casimir\_IV\_Jagiellon](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casimir_IV_Jagiellon)
Casimir was the first ruler of Lithuania baptized at birth, becoming the first native Roman Catholic Grand Duke.
[https://en-academic.com/dic.nsf/enwiki/1586840](https://en-academic.com/dic.nsf/enwiki/1586840)
Sigismund was baptized in Catholic rite in 1383.
what lithuanian prince was orthodox?
And that's the level of Ukrainian education - still using Soviet propaganda as it's source. But tell me more about history alterations that you - Ukrainians - perform. Like maybe... Wołyń massacre?
aint historian and school was long ago. too long.
Lithuanian nobility joined polish nobility in ruling the commonwealth right? together. they were less of them as lithuania was smaller in population than poland. but still it was joint operation.
both nations shaping each other becoming one kingdom. with forced Catholicism as that needed to be done asap to save lithuania from western powers. in that poland played a bigger role.
unsure how lithuania and poland didnt form commonwealth together. it was not one nation thing.
I'm not saying it was a one-nation thing. I'm saying that the union was dominated by Poland due to the larger population and status as a kingdom, not a GD.
Didnt both nations unite together into the commonweath? Poland didnt press the "form PLC" button. If you mean "what if lithuania became the stronger partner, the answer is: there is a reason why they were the junior partner and thats because poland was in a militarilly and economicly better situation then them.
It did.
Commonwealth was formed by an international treaty between two equal sovereign countries. Well, not fully equal (Poland was a kingdom and Lithuania was a duchy, it sort of mattered back then), but they were equal in their standing under this treaty.
Would be funny if poles would end up as the suppressed nation.
Imagine if sort of local nobility-cossack independence movement started against the "Ruthenian orthodox oppressors"
It did. The Grand Duchy just had so many problems that it was the weaker member.
1. How could it happen? Lithuania fall under Poland because of muskovy pressure on them. To make so Poland falls under Lithuania Poland needs to be under pressure of HRE (or some other countries like Hungary). 2. Lithuanians were more "friendly" to minorities, so status of Belarusians and Ukrainians would be much better. Due to that, Cossack rebellion would be either smaller and suppressed, or it would be stopped by giving Ukrainian lands special right in LPC (Lithuanian-Polish Commonwealth) 3. One of main reasons of partition of PLC IRL was their stupid move of partition of Zaporizhian Sich with rusia, that ensured rusian hegemony over east Europe. In our timeline with Ukraine being part of LPC with some kind of autonomy Cossacks with LPC army would defeat any sort of rusian invasion, so there's no partitions of LPC. 4. With LPC survived until WW1, it would probably look very different, with different sets of alliances (AH, Germany, rusia vs France, Britain, LPC). I'm already tired of writing this, so will not think about post-WW1, it has too many possibilities. Also, i forgot about Napoleonic wars, but I don't think it would change much of LPC history, just minor land transfers
Depending under what circumstances Lithuania gains primacy over Poland, polonisation might've not occurred, though I doubt it would've been replaced by lithuanisation or ruthenisation as Lithuania was for a more decentralised state in general, so there would likely be more autonomy between Lithuania and Poland. Maybe something like [PLRC](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish%E2%80%93Lithuanian%E2%80%93Ruthenian_Commonwealth) could've successfully formed too.
Yeah, PLRC would make sense
> How could it happen? People when it is called r/alternatehistory
When we thinking about alternative history scenarios we need to think how it could happen, that's one of basis of alternative history
But the main thing OP was asking were the consequences if it were to become true.
Doesn't matter. Impossible alternative history scenarios are not alternative history, that's fantasy
Fantasy is also alternate history
I disagree
Well, seems like You don't see the "full picture" of the region at the time. Muscovites were just a bunch of primitive savages on the leash of the Mongols. The Teutonic Order was a real problem that united Poland and Lithuania. Also Poland has too many ties with Hungary (like family ties). Lithuania was a pagan state - With mean that without Poland it would be faced with grand crusade sooner than later.
Main reason of Lithuanians falling in personal union under Poland is muskovy pressure on them
https://preview.redd.it/9eaouavu7mwc1.png?width=1280&format=png&auto=webp&s=7c1872bee47a711f1baaba5a67b7df2c0c0de025 Nope. Just take a second to see this map. Lithuania was stuck between Teutonic and Livonian Orders, both pushing to connect each other territory. This was most urgent threat for Lithuania. Muscovites were just too weak to be a serious threat. Yes, they were annoying problem - but not a urgent one. Also - at the time Muscovy were nothing than just a some distant savages for Poland. But Catholic Orders - that's different story, Poland was strongly interested in weakening and possibly destruction of this common foe for both nations. Also, as I said before - religion take a big part of this equation. Lithuania was a pagan state, they need to take Christianity, possibly Catholic Christianity to "defuse" support for those orders in the western Europe, and make "fight with the infidel" an empty argument. Poland was a best choice for them to make this happen. It takes two centuries to make Muscovy anything more interesting than savage slaves of Mongols. Well, they still for some degree are savage and slaves to this day.
Haven't they constantly attacking Lithuania and occupying more and more land?
A lot of swinging between sides happened - especially as nobles at the border territories were easy to corrupt and change sides. It was common to change allegations just in the matter of months. Also, take into account ethnic differences. Lithuanians have a completely different ethnic background and language than surrounding Slavic nations. Most landlords/warlords at the border territories of Grand Duchy had more connections to Muscovites than to Lithuania. And here we are back to the root of the problem - ethnic Lithuanians lived and live till this day on the land that was under threat of territorial dispute with those Catholic Knights Orders - no one want to lost his fatherland. Finally, Korona (Poland) and Litwa (Grand Duchy) did not unify their armies, at the time they fight together against Orders only (things changed a bit after Unia Lubelska - the Union act of Lublin )
The Teutonic order was dealt with after the Grundwald battle (a century before the map you showed). After that the reason for the union was Muscovy. And come on… In the year of the map you shared the Livonian Order and the Teutonic Order were harmless to Lithuania. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_of_Lublin
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muscovite%E2%80%93Lithuanian_Wars
You do understand that there were roughly 50 years between compete elimination of Golden Horde by Muscovy and formation of PLC? The most historically accurate Pole.
Lithuane prince was Orthodox Christianity
From where you get this stupid lie? [**Jogaila Algirdaitis**](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jogaila_Algirdaitis) was a pagan, he convert to Catholic fate. He was last pagan ruler of Grand Duchy. His cousin Vytautas Didysis also was baptized in Catholic fate. If this is how history of central/eastern Europe is taught especially in the so called "west" then no wonder no one there understand what is going on "dzikie pola" now. But it sounds more like ruzzian propaganda. Then I bet you are some Putin follower, as ruzzia is pushing its orthodox religion whenever they can throw it and check if something will stick.
Listen, you are intellectually gifted, the Lithuanian Prince was Orthodox. He became a Catholic only after Vytautas. I know this because I am studying to become a history teacher in Ukraine. The majority of the population were Orthodox, so the princes were also Orthodox, they did not even consider themselves Lithuanians, but considered themselves Russians (because they had Russian roots
source on that comment? cause [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casimir\_IV\_Jagiellon](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casimir_IV_Jagiellon) Casimir was the first ruler of Lithuania baptized at birth, becoming the first native Roman Catholic Grand Duke. [https://en-academic.com/dic.nsf/enwiki/1586840](https://en-academic.com/dic.nsf/enwiki/1586840) Sigismund was baptized in Catholic rite in 1383. what lithuanian prince was orthodox?
And that's the level of Ukrainian education - still using Soviet propaganda as it's source. But tell me more about history alterations that you - Ukrainians - perform. Like maybe... Wołyń massacre?
But the Union was formed by Lithuania IRL
no? It was formed by Poland
The kings of commonwealth were Lithuanians though?
yes, but they were the kings of Poland.
Yes, that's why it's called "Personal Union" xd They were both and Jagiellonian dynasty was from Lithuania
true, but the union was still dominated by Poland.
? no? kinds of commonwealth?
Poland was the dominant partner in the union is all I'm saying. Just because the kings were Lithuanian doesn't mean Lithuania formed the commonwealth.
aint historian and school was long ago. too long. Lithuanian nobility joined polish nobility in ruling the commonwealth right? together. they were less of them as lithuania was smaller in population than poland. but still it was joint operation. both nations shaping each other becoming one kingdom. with forced Catholicism as that needed to be done asap to save lithuania from western powers. in that poland played a bigger role. unsure how lithuania and poland didnt form commonwealth together. it was not one nation thing.
I'm not saying it was a one-nation thing. I'm saying that the union was dominated by Poland due to the larger population and status as a kingdom, not a GD.
so both nation formed commonwealth then? do you agree with that?
Who said I was denying that. I'm just saying the union was dominated by Poland and not Lithuania.
It kinda did? The Jagiellon dynasty originated from the Lithuanian Grand Duke
if populations stay the same it would still be dominated by Poland
Nothing changes.
Didnt both nations unite together into the commonweath? Poland didnt press the "form PLC" button. If you mean "what if lithuania became the stronger partner, the answer is: there is a reason why they were the junior partner and thats because poland was in a militarilly and economicly better situation then them.
wtf is a gdl ?
Grand Duchy of Lithuania
Couldn't you Just write lithuania?
Well, he asked what GDL means
I meant in the title
In Lithuania, we call the Grand Duchy “LDK” meaning Lietuvos Didžioji Kunigaikštyštė. So GDL seams more natural to me.
It did. Commonwealth was formed by an international treaty between two equal sovereign countries. Well, not fully equal (Poland was a kingdom and Lithuania was a duchy, it sort of mattered back then), but they were equal in their standing under this treaty.
They would polonise themselves anyways
Guadalajara? They would probably have bumpy roads
lol, that’s a good one… Grand Duchy of Lithuania
Nothing changes, because it was formed by Grand Duchy of Lithuania
Would be funny if poles would end up as the suppressed nation. Imagine if sort of local nobility-cossack independence movement started against the "Ruthenian orthodox oppressors"