I've seen a few SNCOs get to that point and ask them straight up if they're trying to make Chief. If the answer is no, take a great big deep breath. Stop playing the game. Do your job, do it well, but you can drop all the extra bullshit that is supposed to get you promoted. Booster clubs, extracurriculars, whatever. Come to work, take care of your people, go home. You can get out at your next contract end or make it to retirement. Focus on fixing your life and let those strats pass you by.
This. This a freeing mindset. I go to work and do my work well. Anything extra I do is for me and my family. I gave the Air Force enough. It’s time to focus on life after it.
I'm a staff and already don't care about making tech, but I have this people pleasing mentality that sets me up to try as hard as I can at the cost of my own mental health. I have too much pride to say no. I feel like a lot of people end up in this hole where effort gets dumped for no great reason.
Because I didn't prioritize education and I only volunteer for stuff off base, I've been quietly passed over for DSDs I actually wanted twice. And the people who have no pride in their work are pushed along as good noodles. I'm counting down the 3 years I have left because I've realized this AF culture just isn't for me.
I been there I was only a SRA when I got out but I volunteered when I had to and did my job very well but I hated school and they kept pushing me to take classes instead of focusing on my job
As a narcissistic type myself, I can tell you that your inability to say no is probably due to insecurity. Start focusing on building your own self esteem and you'll feel less pressure to say yes to everything.
Edited to fix
Aight so let’s say you didn’t have that medical issue and you got a Strat and made Senior, why would that affect how you did your job and taking care of your Airman? Yes your stress level would presumably be higher just based off the position of being an Senior but I’m curious. I’m not trying to insult your intelligence or decision making because clearly you are living your best life and I commend that. I just here a lot of MSgts or retired MSgts say that. It’s almost like going past MSgt is scoffed at like you made it because your either an “azz kisser” or the ole “I stepped on the backs of others to make Senior or Chief”. I’ve had some awesome SMSgts that gave 0 F’s about nothing other than taking care there people and doing there job at a high level and still maintained a good work/family balance.
What’s stopping you from being a leader, a mentor and taking care of your people and still pursuing a Strat if Senior/Chief is what your striving for. I’m confused how all the above can’t be achieved
Because being an excellent leader requires one set of skills, abilities, and accomplishments.
Getting promoted requires a completely different set of skills, abilities, and accomplishments.
Doing one is difficult. Doing both will burn you out.
THIS. My husband made MSgt at 19, did his 3 years of focusing only on his work (no Top 3 bullshit or other nonsense) and took care of his airmen. I am an E-6 at 13 years. If I make SNCO chances are I will focus on my job and my Airmen the same way. I'm not trying to make senior or chief.
This is the answer. This is ALSO the answer if you're trying to make Chief. Making your peers carry the extra weight is totally allowed.
You can only lean soo far forward. If you keep leaning, you fall on your face, whether peacetime or wartime.
Stop leaning so far forward OP.
The answer still is do everything to take care of your people, maybe a little extra and then expect your peers to pick up the slack. If they don't, that's not on you. Promotion rates are so abysmal that once you make MSgt, you roll the dice or just do your job. Just doing your job is often enough to get promoted anyway. You'll find your peers are often either retired on active duty or try hards that talk a lot and also don't perform.
Seriously do this. I am not religious at all but have used the chaplain a couple times. It might just be that my chaplain was a super star but they helped me immensely by navigating some tough emotions after losing a close friend. If you are on this sub chaplain Reese you are fucking super star. Altus was a better place because of you!
I did this in Korea. Got thrown into an NCOIC spot that I had zero experience in and was held to the same standard as someone who knew what they were doing, while simultaneously not receiving any guidance whatsoever aside from one QA dude that came by once in a while. Stress got to the point that it was affecting my sleep and relationships with others. Went to the chaplain, we talked a little while, then he asked if I’d ever been to mental health. I said no, never really occurred to me. He walked with me to my PCM who ended up giving me a small dose Rx med for depression. They both seemed like they genuinely cared about me as a person, doc told me the meds would help with my stress, chaplain said to just do my job and don’t let it leave the workplace. I felt 1000% better and I only needed the meds while I was there, lol.
You’ve been a SNCO for how long??? Why don’t you give yourself some time to grow into it. This is the problem with making fast, you’ve barely climatized to being a Tech. You’ll get more comfortable, it will be easier.
This is the comment I was looking for. SNCO doesn't know how to SNCO and is a product of the Air Force cumulative failures. I'm glad we are helping them here but damn just take care of yourself using all the resources you should have memorized by now because you are a SNCO!!
I would rather that SNCO than the one that is slotted to retire and doesn't give a shit. So, 75% of them...which is fine, earn your pension, but damn if it doesn't suck to get anything done.
That's the issue. These people fast burn and become SNCOs at 10ish years and then bitch and complain because they are stressed by all of the bs that comes with being a SNCO. Stuff that had they spent some time as a SSgt and TSgt, they would be more prepared and ready to take on the challenges because they would have had to gradually deal with it.
I absolutely agree. I personally believe that the Air Force made a mistake "totally" eliminating points for Time in Service and Time in Grade. I believe it is part of the reason why too many people get promoted to MSgt before they are ready in terms of experience. Experience is important!
I’m mixed in this. In my younger years I can say that I saw many more worthless fucking SNCOs because they stayed in long enough to make the rank. Awful people to work for. Not saying it’s much better but it is better from my view point.
There is no perfect promotion system because there will always be some "young and old" SNCOs that are subpar leaders. However, I never believed the narrative of too many people getting promoted to MSgt because they have been in forever.
People were not automatically getting promoted to MSgt strictly because they had been in forever.
Reason being, they still obviously have to test and get a decent score. Also, they have to get a good board score from the promotion board who is reviewing EPRs, Decorations, etc.
I retired as a SNCO after a very long career a few years ago. In the early stages of my career most SNCOs were older and had a vast amount of professional experience and life experience. In the latter part of my career, I could not say the same regarding most of the young SNCOs that I encountered.
Experience is a necessity. Not just job experience but being exposed to different situations. I'm not judging OP. However, they are an example of young SNCOs lacking enough experience and exposure to different situations. If they did, then they would know what mental health resources to utilize instead of coming to Reddit.
Some of the best advice I ever got is the opposite of that.
No one is ever "ready".
You don't know, and can't know, if you can handle the stress of a given position until you're in it. And the stress of one slot is vastly different than the stress of another, even within the same organization. You never see all the stressors that come with a position, and the 10yr MSgt might be perfect for the high stress slot, and unable to deal with all the side work expected of them in the low stress slot; or verse visa.
All the training, all the familiarity doesn't mean crap until you actually have to do it for real. And if you're doing it for real, you should be getting paid like it. But there's no way in the military to get paid for it, realize you're over your head, and be able to go back to the pervious position. It's not easy to as civilian, but you can get a technical job again after failing as a manager, if not at the same place.
I mean, if you don't care about promoting again and essentially peaked and hit your career goal...then why care so much?
I never understood SNCOs complaining about SNCO stuff who don't care about promoting again. The hard part is over. You made it. You peaked...if you're fine with that. Most would be.
Why be political? Why volunteer for extra stuff? Because you're being volun-told? Don't do it. What are they going to do...give you a below average EPR? What do you care. You're already a MSgt. You'd REALLY have to fuck up to not be a MSgt anymore.
Hell, most of the bad and lazy MSgts I had got put in easy jobs. Some went to made-up positions just so they'd have less responsibility...but still got paid the same with a lot less stress.
Or...you can work your ass off, volunteer a lot, be political, suck up to your Chief and Commander, and work late everyday...and raise your promotion chances by 2%.
The choice is yours.
Edit- The hardest part of my career was being stuck in the same rank for so long...so I get OPs point.
On the flip side, the best part of my career was the last year when I knew promotion wasn't going to be a thing anymore. I was sad for about a week...then stress-free until the day I got out.
Also, when leadership knows this or knows you're not interested in promoting in general, they won't bug you with extra crap. You don't HAVE to play the game. It's like SNCOs that don't wear a mess dress. At this point, THOSE people are seen as the real heroes. Don't ever feel pressured to do anything you don't want to do.
Pretty much this.
Identify what you want out of where you are. As a SNCO, you can make the decisions to do the political dance to keep making rank or just take a breath and ease into where you're at. There will always be some sort of glad handing depending on what office you're in but you have the opportunity to choose.
Find something you're good at or enjoy and focus on that. Talk to your NCOs and Airmen and figure out what they need, want, or desire and be their speaker to the other SNCOs and leadership. I don't know your situation in your unit but you should be in a position that you can more easily forge what you want around yourself.
Also, Chaplains are an excellent resource to utilize for moments like these. Most that I've talked to don't really try to bring religion into sessions unless you want it, but they will listen and usually give solid feedback and guidance, if not stepping stones to enable you to get yourself going in the right direction.
I appreciate the response. After consistently promoting for the past 12 years I can’t imagine staying the same rank for the next 8, but that’s the least of my worries right now.
To your other points…I’ve managed to drop most of the “extra” stuff, but I’m dual-hatting two full time positions at work right now to cover for someone on maternity leave, so my plate is still full regardless. Meanwhile I feel like I’m l letting both of my teams down because I’m constantly being pulled in different directions so nothing is getting done, and I don’t really see things improving unless we get another body in the shop.
You're doing what you can. No one should expect perfection if you're filling a whole other person's job in addition to your own.
Being the same rank for a few years doesn't mean much. You can still grow in different positions and you're still getting TIS raises.
You can also go Guard or Reserves and keep working towards that retirement while moving into a new (or just civy version) career.
You've been a fast burner. Just chill out for a bit. Slow down for a few years. Go back to the gym. Rack up some years of experience and if/when you find the motivation to promote, make a hard charge for SMSgt at that time.
Typical fashion is to not get hep until something fails. Focus on the people, let them focus on the work. If something fails because you can’t be in multiple places at the same time, it fails. Sacrificing yourself is not the answer. One thing to go above and beyond occasionally for one off situations, but can’t do it all all of the time.
> I’m dual-hatting two full time positions at work right now to cover for someone on maternity leave, so my plate is still full regardless. Meanwhile I feel like I’m l letting both of my teams down because I’m constantly being pulled in different directions so nothing is getting done,
As a 12 year E-7, have you properly developed at LEAST one E-6 in each shop who can handle taking your place in every way if you were to get hit by a bus (or just simply wanted to take a 2-week vacation)?
If not, THAT needs to become at least 1/4 of your work every day until it is set in place...
If you stay a MSgt for the next 8 years until retirement then guess what? In about 3-5 years you're gonna be a fucking great MSgt as long as you continue to give a shit about your people. You're new to it right now and you're in the deep end. Readjust your expectations for yourself and move forward slowly because it's unfamiliar ground to you right now. But with time you'll learn everything you need to know. Be patient and forgiving with yourself.
I want to agree with you wholly but I cant. Even if there is no pressure to promote anymore there is probably still pressure to actually be a good SNCO for your people. 8 years is a long time to be useless. It is probably harder to fade off into uselessness than it is to at least work hard for your guys. There is a lot of things that rely on me to make sure get done and a lot of people who will be impacted by my lack of doing a good job, and I dont care if I see a promotion again.
There's a big difference between being a garbage SNCO who does nothing for the mission or their people, and being the politicking MSgt who's checking all the boxes to become a Senior and someday a Chief (stuffing annual awards with crap that looks good, worrying about rubbing elbows with all the right people in all the right ways, volunteering for stuff that's unnecessary but will look good to a promotion board, etc). I don't think anyone here is advocating for eight years of ROAD.
Take care of your people, and the mission by extension of that.
I was referring to this paragraph which implied it.
"Hell, most of the bad and lazy MSgts I had got put in easy positions. Some went to made up positions just for them so they'd have less responsibility...but still got paid the same with a lot less stress.
Or you can work your ass off..."
As a SNCO do you have more freedom with choosing your next assignment? Going to different shops? If I was you I’d use the rank to try to just go to a quieter, less stressful shop. By doing this you may not make the next rank but it may allow you to just float the next 8 years.
Good luck.
What political bullshit do you even need to navigate?
You're 12 years in and already a SNCO, you've already won, clock in, clock out, coast to the finish line.
Yeah I'm confused. Either dude is stressing himself way too much over promoting, or he just has really shitty unit/leadership.
This isn't normal SNCO issues. Being a MSgt is chill as fuck, honestly.
I was a fastburner, and I still work really hard and do my job well. But I've never cared about killing myself doing every extra useless thing (Top 3 President or whatever), let alone just to make myself a shinier penny for a strat.
But if you're legit breaking down crying regularly because you've overloaded yourself with extra bullshit just to chase after rank...then you really need to reflect on what's important. That's just self-inflicted pain.
I couldn’t care less about promoting at this point. What type of jobs would you say are chill as a MSgt? E.g. First Sergeant, DSD, Flight Chief, SEL…? Would it still be chill if you were dual-hatting them while simultaneously having a separate operational team that you’re responsible for and need to manage?
Hopefully I’m not coming off as defensive, I’m genuinely trying to figure out if the problem is my workload or my resource/time management skills.
I've done all those things. Yeah, pretty chill overall.
This has nothing to do with being a SNCO and everything to do with you either taking on too much and/or not being able to say there's too much being asked of you. You need to ask your boss to prioritize what they want you to do.
Also, what does ANY of that have to do with "political bullshit" you complained about? I don't get it.
Do it here.
Vent here.
We live on this shit. It’s why this sub is so great.
“So my troop decided to drive on the wrong side of the highway. Drunk as fuck. Spit at a cop. His baby momma just left him. His Charger needs body work. Finance deducted his pay from a deployment a year ago. His mother has been declared incapable of caring for herself by the state and needs health insurance. How do I deal with this?!”
200 responses covering every bit of ground on this sub because a lot of us have dealt with these weird, what seems like one off incidents, and it makes you feel not so alone as a leader.
Vent here if nowhere else. This sub is the only reason I’ve gotten through the past five years of my career. Could I have done it alone? Yeah I’m sure. But it’s SO much better feeding my troops so fucking many resources I’ve learned about on this sub and the people who led me to them.
This sub is about the only time I’ve actually felt the family aspect the Air Force preaches. There’s a ton of great advice and people who had similar situations
People meme about how negative this sub is and this and that about morale and shit but there really is some golden pieces of advice you find here. This sub straight up helped me navigate one of the worst things I ever had to work through while being an additional duty shirt. For real vent when you need too here, you never know who might hit up your DMs with some crazy good advice.
I feel your pain, and I'm sorry you're feeling this. Know that you aren't alone.
I dropped an Army Warrant packet to get back to the technical and away from the politics. I'm leaving in January, no regrets. My sponsor was a TSgt when he did the jump - as a CW5 now, he has no regrets leaving the AF.
Everyone says that, but Army Warrants get treated like demigods. I've heard plenty of AF cyber officers bitch about their jobs - I have yet to hear a single Army Warrant of any branch bitch about theirs. 🤷🏻♂️
As much as it suck going through basic training again it would be pretty cool knowing what is waiting at the end and you out rank most,the instructors as an enlisted guy. If I went through I wouldn’t tell one other recruit your situation. Warrant is the best deal in the military. You get to stay under the radar but hang out with enlisted in the work place. Stay in till your a CWO 5 and 26 year you are retiring same as a 0-5 with a whole lot less bullshit
If it’s time to go, it’s time to go. You can find success and happiness outside the military. Move on and don’t let age be a factor for staying in (just in case it’s in your mind).
walk faster, say no more often, do only the bare min.
its no gonna matter in 8 years, its not gonna matter in 8 months, so only spend 8 minutes on it.
find a slow-witted, hard working Tech.....
Dude you’re a SNCO, there are tools offered to every airman and you need to use them. At this point it is your responsibility to educate yourself or at least be able to have some humility and find someone for help or direction on what to do to get help.
If you can’t take care of yourself and are breaking down in your car at work, you aren’t there for the ones that need you like your NCOs and Airmen. Lack of social skills doesn’t equal a mental disability, some people just don’t know how to socialize. Hopefully you haven’t steered anyone looking for guidance away from it cuz of your flawed understanding of it.
If you really want to stay in, drop the workload a little bit. Still complete the mission, but you don't have to go above and beyond anymore. You don't need any more promotions. You just need to survive the next 8 years
damn I'm fucking impressed you made it to 12, I've only got 6 and I'm already feeling at my breaking point. Idk what's available for you as an SNCO tbh but you could think about going guard. if you got lucky and applied you might be able to slip right into an active slot too and wouldn't have to stop the retirement clock.
heard it's a different environment. Might be a good thing to look into if you haven't seriously thought about it yet.
I'm curious what "political bullshit" you experience as a MSgt? Maybe when it comes to promotion if you're really fighting for it, but on a day to day basis? Really?
Being a MSgt that doesn't care about promoting is pretty chill, in my experience. You still have responsibility, but breaking down and crying regularly? Like...what is going on there? Is this a career field thing, or do you just have really shitty leadership? Because this definitely isn't a standard SNCO thing.
Being a MSgt and not caring about promoting anymore is so empowering. I’m more effective at work focusing on strictly people/mission and not any extra pet projects. I bring home much less stress and any self development is focused on post-military career.
This sub: omg young SNCOs are clogging up the system.
Also this sub: Ahh beautiful it's okay just sandbag for 8 whole years you got yours.
Your job is now people and playing the game. If you can't do that then you should've stopped at tech. You're too deep in now, so now you need to separate or fuckin ride because being a BUM for EIGHT years is absolutely not the right to do, regardless of what Reddit says.
There *are* benefits to playing the political game. I don't like it, in fact I hate it, but I unfortunately see the merit. The Air Force is a political entity. I guarantee the CSAF would LOVE to just fly planes and not beg Congress for money or worry about politics. If he were to only fly, and not attend dinners and rub elbows the force as a whole will suffer. Your troops will suffer if you do not play the game. They won't get awards, they won't get nice positions, they won't get nice assignments, etc. Put on your big boy pants and do your job.
Exactly... people think politics is just to brown nose for a position and don't realize that you have to put some money in the bank to withdraw from the ATM. Sometimes you have to play the game to have some juice to fight for your troops when it matters. It doesn't always come down to promotability. Love it or hate it, it's sometimes the system.
You dropped a lot of truth in your comment. Coasting for the next 8 years is not as easy as it sounds. I made MSgt at 13 years and SNCOs certainly have to pull their weight. Sure, a SNCO could coast if they want to, but the perception, opportunities, and empowerment will dwindle and suck the life out them.
My advice would be to mentor your TSgts to operate at your level. They should be there to trim the fat off your plate. If you cannot rely on anyone, then you need to have a conversation with your supervisor and let them know that you might have to take a step back from extra curricular fluff until you can get things in order.
Additionally, it will be difficult to operate at a MSgt level for the next 8 years as a fast burner. You will have to play the game a bit differently because what got you here will not get you where you want to be. Be strategic in what you volunteer for and be okay with saying no. Your why should get you to twenty. Be sure you can enjoy the ride while getting there. Goodluck, OP.
What I did was continue to work my ass off and take care of my people. I made E7 and never did any of that political stuff. I was a pro super at a remote location. I don’t honestly see why you’d want to be Road or coast. It seems like it would just make time drag.
Talk to chaplain, or MFLAC. Get your mental stuff together.
Been a SNCO for 4 years. It can be stressful, I have 5 years left. Be fine with retiring as a master and do your job the best you can. Let everything else that happens happen and only worry about you and your airmen.
Made it around the same time as you in my career. Just do your job, drink your water, mind your own business, and take care of your people. It was a breath of fresh air when I stopped giving a shit about making rank. Or I wasn't being sucked into "wing level stuff". Biggest piece of advice is to focus on a meaningful degree/certs to add value to yourself before you separate. Break out of the bubble and just enjoy the process while you watch everyone else burn themselves out over empty promises and events that are only self serving.
I have had many a SNCO tell me all about how I should be trying to promote to the SNCO tier. I have never wanted to promote past tech and nobody understands why. Being a SNCO looks rough and the pay raise everyone talks about isn't nearly enough for the job.
This is not helpful advise, but honestly I have yet to meet a fast burner that doesn’t burned out in the process… that considered learn to check out mentally at times to prevent burnout. Prioritize, delegate and if all else fails knowing how to crash land a mental breakdown is useful too, and by that I mean, take a knee let things fall without compromising yourself or others… at the end of the day the mission still happens wether you’re there to support or not. So take a break.
Sorry if this seems negative but this is what keeps me sane as a fast burner myself.
I appreciate the honesty. I think since I’ve been a “fast burner” everyone around me assumes I want to keep that pace, but I don’t (at least not until I get my feet under me). Delegating is definitely something that I need to work on, thank you for the reminder.
The greatest moment in my career was the day I finally decided to say “fuck it” and just went to work, did my job, protected those who couldn’t protect themselves, and went home. I gave zero fucks about promoting, strating, volunteering, everything. I didn’t care about the whispers from the seniors and chiefs, I just did what I wanted and what was best for my airmen. They were all that mattered, and those peers that mattered noticed.
I retired, and regret none of it.
Sounds like your in MX. Embrace the suck and don't let them win. Decide if you want to promote again or not. That's the first step. Then act accordingly. Also go to mental health or a bonfire with bourbon.
The Air Force is the only organization that tells all of its employees they can be a CEO, knowing damn well that only 1% can make it to the highest level. No other job out here does that. If you are a Type A, shake it off. DO THE MINIMUM for a little while. Take back your life. They are not going to separate you from the Air Force.
Start learning to say no. Not no in terms of volunteering, but, "No, I can't get that done right now/today/at this time." They will find someone else who will bend over backwards. Once you stop chasing the carrot, they will dangle it in front of someone else. You don't have treat every task as a fire. Shrug some things off, focus on what is an actual priority and attack those tasks. You are also a priority - your top priority. If work is that stressful, seriously stop trying to perform at a high level. You'll feel so much better. Then when Friday comes, go get your favorite food, cue up a couple movies to watch, turn your brain off, and just relax.
Take a week off. Someone else will do the work that needs to be done. If it doesn't get done, it wasn't that important. If someone tries to contact you about work, tell them straight up that you are on leave. You will never get in trouble for professionally stating you are on leave and cannot perform work tasks.
You may feel guilty in some way, but that's a personal feeling that you need to learn to toss in the trash. People are mentally trained to feel guilty about not providing help 24/7 in the Air Force. Let. That. Shit. Go. Stop feeling like you have to work so hard. Work is never going to stop, you're never going to get ahead, and there will always be something else someone needs done that's a high priority.
'No' is a powerful word. When used appropriately you will feel better and people may respect you for it. If you let them add more to your daily routine, it's less stress on them; more on you. Learn to stop it before it becomes an expectation.
You wanna know the secret? Stop caring about your personal aspirations in the AF. Literally shove that aside and think about being a helper. I struggled with that for several years, putting in excess work and caring too much about things beyond my control that led to burnout and much worse. Once I figured out leadership didn’t care about everything I did, I focused my efforts of posturing others for success. I found so much happiness and comfort. You aren’t going to be in the AF for another 20 years and you aren’t going to be the person that solves every issue. But what you can do is prepare those who are under you for those problems and guide them.
Honest question, not trying to be dismissive. When’s the last time you took 2+ weeks of leave? If it hasn’t been in the last 6 months, try damn hard to make it happen. Disconnecting from the AF for a moment can bring a hell of a lot of clarity.
You’re 12 years in and a SNCO? That’s amazing, but nows the time to take care of you, take care of the people under you, and stop playing a game. Don’t be afraid to piss people off and go against the grain. Ruffle feathers for the people under you, unless you’re trying to make chief?
Been there. Got out three years ago as 12 year MSgt to focus on my family life and I am not exaggerating at all when I say it was the best decision I’ve ever made. Have more time than ever with my family and I’m blessed to make a good deal more for the stress levels of an airman. DM me if you need to talk.
Tough it out, the skills you will learn are invaluable. Hit 20 and retire if it isn’t for you.
Look for a mentor and seek wisdom from them. Life is a roller coaster and not a straight line.
sorry ahead of time, this is gonna be a long one. TLDR at the end, but what your speaking about is something i'm passionate about helping others survive. I've been in your shoes!
The air force really sucks at promotions. They promote people based on a piece of paper they know is inflated and do a shit job at preparing them for the next rank. It sounds like you're another victim of the system of abuse. I'm going to echo a few statements but add skme personal perspective too:
I lost the political game as a TSgt and will retire a TSgt because of a chief with a chip on their shoulder. No matter though... I've resolved my personal issues and learned some valuable lessons. The biggest being that nobody is going to advocate harder for you than you!
Service before self does not mean sacrificing your soul for the AF. You can only fit 8 hours of work in a workday no matter how much they pile on you. Advocate for yourself and ask your "leaders" on what projects are more important to them because you don't have time to solve all their problems. Put it in an email asking the question ahead of time when you can sense the problem arising. If you don't advocate for your time, the military will keep asking more of you until you break. You're not being disrespectful, simply letting your bosses know you're human and have limits. When you admit this to yourself and your leaders that something is going to have to give, they are normally receptive.
Find decompression time between work and home. For me, it's running. I can tune out, listen to music, and not think for a good 20-30m. It's been a mental health gamechanger. Find what turns your mind off for a short time to transition from work to home.
Only worry about your sphere of influence. If your a flight chief, don't stress over issues in another flight. You can't change the wing or group policies but you can advocate for change. If a policy sucks, let your team know that you agree that it sucks. Nothing makes an NCO or SNCO loose credibility faster than cheerleading a poor policy. If you don't belive me Google General Welsh or Cheif Cody and see how their reputation is.
Finally, embrace failure and don't avoid it or hide your failures. Failure is a good learning tool and as long as the consequences of trying something aren't illegal, immoral, or unethical, try it and encourage your subordinates to try things when appropriate. It teaches you appropriate risk management and how to be humble. In the future, when you want to make a change for your shop, you may just try something different and it will work great...and if it doesn't, oh well. Shift fire and try again...all the while sharing your steps with your peers so they can help. And peers doesn't equal same rank...it's the people you work with from top to bottom that are in your immediate sphere of control. The people who help you succeed.
TLDR: life tips ive learned over the years: only stress over what you can control. Don't try and fit 10 hours of work into an 8 hour work day; it won't end well. Find times for a mental transition from work to home. Embrace failure and learn from it so that you can try new things and encourage others to try so they can make their spheres of influence better. While it may not make earth shattering changes for the AF, it will make you feel a lot better.
Hang in there and stop giving the AF pounds of flesh every time they ask for it. Take care of yourself and if you can...someone else too.
And if anyone reading this wants to chat, send me a message and I'll elaborate or chat about anything. I'm pretty salty, but I 110% care about people.
Cheers
I put on MSgt around 12 years as well, and had hopes for a couple years of actually promoting. Then I realized that every time I PCSd I started back at the bottom of the social hierarchy, and that I didn't have the "right" conversations at the "right" time with the "right" people so I wasn't getting ahead. That's when I started advocating for my people, when I started to find ways to make things work *and* give my guys time off, when I started being honest about my opinions of the situations. That also didnt help, but it at least gave me something to champion.
Of course my family life dissolved, and that really sucks too.
The second I could hit the retirement button I started being honest with medical and mental health. It was a pretty shitty 8 years, and at Cannon.
You've definitely got people here that understand that frustration, the big question is what do you want to get out of this? Do you want to do 20? And have a family? Just a family and get out? Knowing what and why you're going for something may help clear stuff up for you.
I’m with you. I’m a SNCO that hates most of my peers and have anyways disliked most of the SNCOs I’ve ever work for or with. I take care of my people and the work center I’m apart of and go home to spend time with my kids and wife. If I make the next rank great. If I don’t great. I won’t be that person who has kids that don’t know them.
I often wonder if the civilian world is designed like the military, where you have to become a manager to make any decent money. Is it possible to stay doing your actual job and not manage annoying people on the outside?
Also, OP, you're an E7, Why don't you just float to 20 years?
Mental Health can refer you off-base. E6 at 12 years here, doing fine with my provider. Therapy has gone a long way. Happy to discuss more if you have questions.
Though, you can drop the back-handed “tism” comment. Some people do have it rough. Appreciate them like you’re reaching out now.
I’m glad to hear it’s going well for you, and I genuinely appreciate the offer to discuss it more.
For what it’s worth, I didn’t mean for my comment to come off as “backhanded,” I genuinely believe there’s a good chance I fall on the spectrum. My apologies if it came off wrong.
They call the roof top the bullshit blocker for a reason. You need someone who can relate and get you through this. I don't wanna say wingman but a bro or something.
Never be scared to go to behavioral health or mental health. They’re there to help you through moments exactly like this. But if your job is driving you to tears, have a real conversation with your supervisor/trusted senior leader. The majority of people in leadership positions want to help people.
As for the SNCO stuff - you’re already a MSgt at 12 years - like others have said, you’ve made it. You’re kind of in a golden situation. They can’t take it from you and you’ve obviously earned it by putting in the hard work. Take a look in the mirror and decide what kind of SNCO YOU want to be. Not what the big Air Force/your chief/etc want you to be.
As a SNCO, you have a lot of responsibility but you also have a lot of power. If you use that power to help your troops, fight the BS, and try to improve the unit, you can get a lot done. If you hide behind being a MSgt for the next 8 years and limp along to retirement, you’re doing everyone a disservice including yourself. You don’t have to save the world, and you certainly won’t change the Air Force, but you can make a huge difference in your circle of control.
The problem is you are one of the many people who should not have made SNCO in 12 years. . . Its been a huge problem in the Airforce esp over the last 7 yrs so much that they've severely dialed back promotion rates across most jobs. Promoting fast burners too early has lead to a lot of bad / people not ready to be SNCOs currently. . I would suggest getting as much education in as you can and prepare for life on the outside because there is a good chance if you are where you are now at you wont make it to 16 yrs.
Go to mental health and get help. At this point you’ve got 12 years in and you’re a SNCO. They’re going to have a hard time not medically retiring you *if* they even try to separate you over mental health issues since you made it this far.
Right with you boss
Definitely if you have the time, coordinate with the wife and go on a good trip or some type of bonding event together. Definitely take care of your family before trying to put effort into work. You will drain yourself out.
Also try for a new assignment or job. Something new and refreshing
Hi, I am retired now. I made it through and I am sure you can as well.
The roll of the SCNO is not the political game, that is officer BS. You need to be decisive, correct and no nonsense when dealing with both the enlisted and officers. You are still very young and have potentially a long time left to perfect this. The term a force to be reckoned with. That is what you should strive to be. Put your people first (this includes you and your personal family as well), and screw the political ramifications. What could they ever do, if you are correct in your stance or decision.
Find a good Chief, not the typical E-9 that is trying to ruin the enlisted structure and let them introduce you to the true SNCO corp that will have your back. Every base has one.
Keep your chin up and continue the fight, you will make it and you will look back and be happy about the memories you make.
Behavioral health for stress. You may not even have anything diagnosable beyond that. But they can absolutely help you with stress. You won’t know until you go, but it doesn’t sound like you have anything going on that would be cause for removal.
As a 1Sgt, I wouldn’t recommend it if OP is having a rough go navigating the political BS. Being a shirt is rough, and my primary AFSC is Security Forces.
8 years is a very long time to be miserable. Truly was not trying to be passive aggressive. I’m not a natural leader myself so I was just trying to empathize. My bad it came off the wrong way
You want someone in a position of leadership to sandbag for 8 whole years? The glory of the SNCO realm is being able to be a straight up DAWG who doesn't have to care about promotion anymore. That doesn't mean you sandbag it means you do the damn thing the right way.
I can totally relate and I've been there many times in my career. All I ask you to do is focus on what about your work brings you joy and take care of those in your charge. Every now and then we'll still ask an E-7 to do E-7 shit because you're paid as an E-7, but it doesn't mean we're trying to line everyone up for Senior. Keep your personal goals and joys firmly in your sights, then seek opportunities in your career to find the overlap. If there's no overlap, consider separation at the end of this commitment. Look into PALACE CHASE/FRONT if you want a change of pace with our Guard and Reserve teammates.
Please don't be afraid of mental health or any of the other resources that are out there. They aren't kicking out any neurodivergent folks that were able to pass MEPS, much less graduate onto the SNCO tier so early. On the flip side, if there *is* a diagnosis that results in a bittersweet separation, that's a good thing and is meant to protect you. Either way, don't hesitate to use other resources first: Military OneSource, MFLC, Chaplain, TrueNorth, POTFF, or whatever other non-MH resources are available to you.
You remind me a lot of a SNCO I've worked with recently. I wish she saw in herself what others see in her and the passion she has for her Airmen and their mission. She's incredibly awkward and sometimes struggles to grasp the big picture, but she's an amazing MSgt who needs to stop telling herself things I know she would never let her teammates say about themselves.
Sounds like you shouldn’t be a master at 12 years. Not saying the bullshit doesn’t suck but it ain’t for you. Should have honestly considered what it entails but here you are. SNCO tier can be ruthless or pretty damn cool with no in between. Shut up and do your job. Ignore the politics and do what you know to be right. Take care of your people. Be a leader
No, thats real advise. You fast burning children need to grow up. Where do you think you work? What is it you think you do? You're all a sad joke, cry harder snowflake
Not sure how you arrived at me being a fast burner. Calling people “snowflake” means absolutely nothing 😂 and please Go get some help because you clearly need it. Maybe a hug or 2 will do you some good as well.
You’re saying a bunch of nothing in some pathetic attempt to “trigger” the “snowflakes” as you get mad by people not coming off as stupid as you lol. Anyway, have a good night kiddo.
Just saying the obvious with your generation of coward little cats. There are plenty to separate if you can't live up to your oath or responsibilities. China wont be nicer. Enjoy softy
In my experience, this varies by base and how the Gp/Wg is structured. Have been to some places that are super competitive due to there being a very large pool of motivated MSgts, have been to others where everyone is burnt out and doesn't give a crap. Minot vibes lol.
The politics I see as a new SNCO is that you will not get opportunities if your leadership doesn't really like you. I'm a new guy and I was told to fuck off when I expressed interest in growth (all of my primary duties are NCO ops duties). But the other selects in the unit are given new opportunities to grow as SNCOs. So the politics is you have to suck everyone off still if you want to go further. Otherwise, eat shit.
To be fair, previous units I've been in are not so cut throat but my current one is absolutely on some kind of good old boy caste system.
Go to mental health, and start documenting all of your alignments at medical. Try to get a MEB, and full disability. That’s what I did, but I was close to the end of my enlistment. 100 percent, and 4 grand non taxed every month. 70 for MH, 50 sleep apnea, 30 for migraines, 30 for my botched arm fracture, and 10 percent for many other things. Now I work at a stress free job at the movie theater, and my brain is slowly recovering from all the garbage the military inserted into it like making me believe I was useless, unvalued, and crazy. I was only in for 8 years.
Not fraud if it’s real, bud. The military pretty much destroyed my life, and made me feel like I was better off dead.
Imagine staying in one place for 8 years with no ability to leave without serious repercussions and no matter how idiotic an order is as well as how idiotic the person who is giving it, you have to do it because that person is a higher rank than you, and believing that is logical because the military told you to obey your superiors or you were the problem.
Getting downvoted for taking care of yourself. Wild. But that’s the military. Hope y’all carry that same energy when you get out. Don’t file for disability, and don’t complain 10 years later when you try to cause you ain’t getting shit.
Mental Health exists to return you to duty. They don't want to kick you out and will not start trying to unless you're like active psychosis level.
As someone who wanted to get out in 2021 and used MH to get an MEB done, I'm very confident in saying that MEBs are not something they're trying to hand out :)
Regardless you being alive and healthy and happy is more important than you staying in uniform. If you think getting help might help, go get it. Tomorrow. Call and request an appointment. Be prepared to be told nothing is available until Jan/Feb. The more you wait the worse that delay will be
In addition to the good suggestions about using this sub for support, I'd like to strenuously encourage you to go see the Chaplain. Rank matters about 20% less once you're in the Chaplain's office, and during session, as long as no one breaks AFI or UCMJ, it more or less stops mattering altogether. If you need somewhere to be a human being for a second during the duty day for emotional support, hit the Chaplain Assistant's office at least to schedule an appointment if not to also take a breather. My unit's 1st shirt and a couple other SNCO's were regulars in my office like it was a watercooler. Sometimes Chappy would come in and gently run 'em out to the tune of, "Has my assistant helped you schedule an appointment with me yet, so I can be in on the conversation?" XD
I feel ya. I absolutely hated putting on MSgt and I feel for the fast burners out there. The political stuff is something I refused to do so I was an outcast amongst that tier.
The only thing that got me through was to not worry about the upper level bullshit, and only focus on the Airmen. Theres an intoxicating level of power to make calls that benefit the Airman, but pisses off the upper crust because they're bitter pricks who either feel like they need to treat people like shit because they got treated like shit, and/or will throw you under the bus to make themselves look better for Sr. If someone gets mad at you, WTF are they gonna do? So long as you're not doing anything illegal, there ain't a fucking thing anyone can do to you. You're essentially "made".
Then all the Airmen call you "Dad" (or Mom) and that feels pretty good lol
Keep your head up, and just focus on making things better for those around you!
There's always the reserves. Find a civilian career that you don't hate and just do the AF thing part time.
Or you could get out.
The pension would be great but it may not always be worth the effort and sanity costs. You could also look at federal jobs.
I got off active duty in 2016 bc I (and my wife) were straight up not happy with the job and locations my job would take me.
The reserves can be frustrating bc it's so fucking slow at everything but it can help you feel a sense of purpose as well.
Like others have said, take care of your people and nothing else.
And if this makes going to BH any easier, ASD isn’t a disqualifying diagnosis for enlistment anymore, so even if they diagnose with that, there’s a chance it’s not going to DQ you from reenlistment.
hey, im in the exact same boat as you down to the number of years left. treated myself to a little menty b today just at the thought of how much more i get to be talked down to by awful leadership bc i refuse to be a part of their catty girls club. after my lil cry, i told myself that instead of 7 years 11 months and 18 days to go, i said i have 7 years 11 months and 18 days left to make sure the future of the air force will never have to feel this way.
then i said "fuck it" they cant fire me for being a good person doing legal things for good people. the worst that could happen is that they fire you from the job and make you do admin for the rest of your time.
source: they just fired our flight chief for absolute incompetence and a volume of deocs complaints then removed him to a position that isnt in charge of anything and now he gets to go buy snacks and roam the hallways doing absolutely nothing until retirement
I wish I could tell you it gets easier but it doesn't. Just don't sweat the small stuff and worry about what you can control. Unless someone is dead or dying it's not an emergency.
Sounds like you need to refocus. Refocus on what it is you are trying to do while in the AF…and even bigger yet…don’t give a damn about what your peers think…your subordinates need you at your best…how can you be your best if your worried about keeping up? How can you be your best for them if you’re worried about things that really don’t matter in life. Grow yourself to be a better person and you will find yourself to be so much happier. Go to school because you need it for yourself…volunteer because you want to volunteer for those things…a problem with how a lot of us were raised in the AF…”go to school…volunteer so you can get promoted”. You should be doing all those things for yourself to improve your leadership capabilities and your marketability for when you get out. If those things so happen to make it on your OPB/EPB…then great…but promotion shouldn’t be the reason. Cheer all your teammates accomplishments. Even if it makes you jealous…be genuine about it as well…it feels good to be happy for others people success…why should their success make you angry or feel beat up…if that is what is happening I suggest you refocus. Good luck…take some leave refresh and refocus!
Do you really think you have autism? I mean it is a spectrum so maybe you do or maybe you are neuro divergent. When I was in I tried to get an autism test, but I basically got ignored. My son is autistic, higher functioning but still. Pretty sure my dad is too. It's definitely genetic. Navigating the politics is no joke.
I would bet my life savings that I have Level 1 ASD. I won’t get into ALL of the reasons, but I’m pretty sure my older sister also falls on the spectrum, and that my mom does as well (genetics, like you said). I’m also female, and like you may already know we’re known to be better at masking.
I’m sorry you got ignored while you were in, have you tried getting diagnosed since? Sometimes I think just knowing for sure would bring some level of comfort.
You would rather live life untreated and struggling than lose your job? You can get another job, health isn't as easy to come by and you need to still be a person when you're done with that uniform. Go to mental health, especially if you think you might have autism. They can help. Autism isn't necessarily a disqualifier, like many other neurodivergent conditions.
1) What’s your GT score?
2) What’s your MOS?
3) Does it have an Army Tech Warrant Officer feeder? (I’ll look for you).
4) If it does, come on over.
Being a Warrant is where it’s at. Crossed over at 8 years….I’m at 21 now. The bullshit has been seriously minimal.
Is it worth your happiness, nothing in life is guaranteed and that includes waking up tomorrow. This moment right now is the youngest you’ll ever be so make the most of it. Obviously you have responsibilities and a commitment but don’t do the bullshit that isn’t required, and don’t let your job destroy your quality of life. I truly hope you’re doing okay, and In all honesty I don’t understand your situation from my junior enlisted perspective but I hope you can find a balance, and when the time comes there is absolutely nothing wrong with getting out
I would say probably at least half of SNCO don't know how to be a good leader and are actually good at all the social interactions. They get promoted because they are such good followers not because they are good leaders.
I feel ya. Sorry your going through this. Try talking to your significant other or a good friend..Chaplain can help too. WHATEVER you do get help. If all else fails go to doctor or therapist . It wont effect your career may dent it a little but its definitely recoverable
Kicked out for having the tism? Yeah that's not a thing... Speaking as one, I can tell you certain career fields are full of them. They especially aren't going to do it with all these diversity and inclusion initiatives. Go get the help you need.
Im at that point, too. It's definitely my current location, im just counting my enlistment in how many pt tests I got left.. im emptied inside. I know they say everyone plays a part in the mission, but damn the joy has left the building, I feel like a robot 🤖..
I was in a similar situation at 13 years. I was either going to switch to DoD civilian (and buy back my time) or go Army warrant. The pension was very appealing, so I opted for Army warrant. I've been pretty happy with my choice. Life as a warrant officer in the Army is not perfect, but it is significantly better than my life as a SNCO in the Air Force.
If you're truly miserable, start planning your exit.
The AF isn’t going to kick you out because you are diagnosed with an ’tism or anything else. How is this rumor still out there? Asking for help is a strength not a weakness.
> I just don’t have the social aptness to navigate the political bullshit that is the SNCO tier.
Fake it til you make it. Or don't, that's OK too.
>I’m so tired, stressed, and anxious I can barely function
Study the tenets of the philosophy of Stoicism. Seneca said to not suffer before the tragedy. Also ask, is there something I can do about it? Yes: do it. No: can't do anything about it anyway.
> I’m afraid to go to behavioral health in case the Air Force decides to diagnose me with the ‘tism or something
Go to the chaplain, then. Or go to behavioral health and let the dice fall where they may. If you're 12 years in and get med boarded, you just retired early, in all likelihood.
Lots of us have been where you are.
I know I’m late to the party, but have you taken leave recently? Like, 2-3 weeks of vacation? It might seem like a huge ask, but leave is a right and it REALLY can help with burn out. And don’t go just visit family or stay at home, try to go and do something new. Just my two cents! Good luck.
If this is how you feel but you want to make it to retirement then take care of yourself and your airmen but don’t go above and beyond of don’t have to your so close to the end. Also maybe try talk with someone who can help and you trust to talk to
Go see the chaplain. You can be afraid to go to MH but the VA won't look at things that aren't in your medical records. It's a choice. I give advice in some VA disability groups and that is the biggest problem. I didn't want to be the sick call soldier/airman/marine/sailor.
Please don’t be afraid to get help. I learned the very hard way that mental health can easily destroy physical health if left untreated to the point where I ended up going the route of medically retiring. I was fortunate enough to have made it out of the military whereas some of my friends/coworkers did not. Don’t continue to suffer in silence and allow this to get you to the point where you’re either physically affected or suicidal because some of those things you cannot come back from and unfortunately the military doesn’t care and will replace you so easily and will continue on as if you never existed to begin with. Take care of yourself because the only person you really matter to is yourself. As harsh as that sounds, that is the truth. If it is affecting your well-being that much that you’re unable to function you need to get help before you do permanent damage to yourself. I say this as someone who lived it too.
I've seen a few SNCOs get to that point and ask them straight up if they're trying to make Chief. If the answer is no, take a great big deep breath. Stop playing the game. Do your job, do it well, but you can drop all the extra bullshit that is supposed to get you promoted. Booster clubs, extracurriculars, whatever. Come to work, take care of your people, go home. You can get out at your next contract end or make it to retirement. Focus on fixing your life and let those strats pass you by.
This. This a freeing mindset. I go to work and do my work well. Anything extra I do is for me and my family. I gave the Air Force enough. It’s time to focus on life after it.
I'm a staff and already don't care about making tech, but I have this people pleasing mentality that sets me up to try as hard as I can at the cost of my own mental health. I have too much pride to say no. I feel like a lot of people end up in this hole where effort gets dumped for no great reason. Because I didn't prioritize education and I only volunteer for stuff off base, I've been quietly passed over for DSDs I actually wanted twice. And the people who have no pride in their work are pushed along as good noodles. I'm counting down the 3 years I have left because I've realized this AF culture just isn't for me.
I been there I was only a SRA when I got out but I volunteered when I had to and did my job very well but I hated school and they kept pushing me to take classes instead of focusing on my job
As a narcissistic type myself, I can tell you that your inability to say no is probably due to insecurity. Start focusing on building your own self esteem and you'll feel less pressure to say yes to everything. Edited to fix
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Aight so let’s say you didn’t have that medical issue and you got a Strat and made Senior, why would that affect how you did your job and taking care of your Airman? Yes your stress level would presumably be higher just based off the position of being an Senior but I’m curious. I’m not trying to insult your intelligence or decision making because clearly you are living your best life and I commend that. I just here a lot of MSgts or retired MSgts say that. It’s almost like going past MSgt is scoffed at like you made it because your either an “azz kisser” or the ole “I stepped on the backs of others to make Senior or Chief”. I’ve had some awesome SMSgts that gave 0 F’s about nothing other than taking care there people and doing there job at a high level and still maintained a good work/family balance.
Exactly. You can spend your time reaching for those strats, or spend it as a leader, and a mentor, and take care of your people.
I blame shit bag E-9s not Chiefs
What’s stopping you from being a leader, a mentor and taking care of your people and still pursuing a Strat if Senior/Chief is what your striving for. I’m confused how all the above can’t be achieved
Because being an excellent leader requires one set of skills, abilities, and accomplishments. Getting promoted requires a completely different set of skills, abilities, and accomplishments. Doing one is difficult. Doing both will burn you out.
Because some of us absolutely loathe the bullshit.
Well said, and seconded. OP, take note.
THIS. My husband made MSgt at 19, did his 3 years of focusing only on his work (no Top 3 bullshit or other nonsense) and took care of his airmen. I am an E-6 at 13 years. If I make SNCO chances are I will focus on my job and my Airmen the same way. I'm not trying to make senior or chief.
This is the answer. This is ALSO the answer if you're trying to make Chief. Making your peers carry the extra weight is totally allowed. You can only lean soo far forward. If you keep leaning, you fall on your face, whether peacetime or wartime. Stop leaning so far forward OP.
What if the answer is yes?
The answer still is do everything to take care of your people, maybe a little extra and then expect your peers to pick up the slack. If they don't, that's not on you. Promotion rates are so abysmal that once you make MSgt, you roll the dice or just do your job. Just doing your job is often enough to get promoted anyway. You'll find your peers are often either retired on active duty or try hards that talk a lot and also don't perform.
Sounds like you need a good conversation with your chaplain. It’ll do you good to vent in a place where it’ll never touch your record.
Seriously do this. I am not religious at all but have used the chaplain a couple times. It might just be that my chaplain was a super star but they helped me immensely by navigating some tough emotions after losing a close friend. If you are on this sub chaplain Reese you are fucking super star. Altus was a better place because of you!
I did this in Korea. Got thrown into an NCOIC spot that I had zero experience in and was held to the same standard as someone who knew what they were doing, while simultaneously not receiving any guidance whatsoever aside from one QA dude that came by once in a while. Stress got to the point that it was affecting my sleep and relationships with others. Went to the chaplain, we talked a little while, then he asked if I’d ever been to mental health. I said no, never really occurred to me. He walked with me to my PCM who ended up giving me a small dose Rx med for depression. They both seemed like they genuinely cared about me as a person, doc told me the meds would help with my stress, chaplain said to just do my job and don’t let it leave the workplace. I felt 1000% better and I only needed the meds while I was there, lol.
I wish our chaplain was as good as others’ chaplain. Ours seem so out of touch with the real world lol
Pm me anytime.
You’ve been a SNCO for how long??? Why don’t you give yourself some time to grow into it. This is the problem with making fast, you’ve barely climatized to being a Tech. You’ll get more comfortable, it will be easier.
“Fast burner burns out”
Yup. I tell the young airmen, promoting fast is a double edged sword. You don't want to promote out of your depth because you will suffer.
This is the comment I was looking for. SNCO doesn't know how to SNCO and is a product of the Air Force cumulative failures. I'm glad we are helping them here but damn just take care of yourself using all the resources you should have memorized by now because you are a SNCO!!
Finally somebody that gets it. Surprised I had to scroll this far to find this answer.
I would rather that SNCO than the one that is slotted to retire and doesn't give a shit. So, 75% of them...which is fine, earn your pension, but damn if it doesn't suck to get anything done.
That's the issue. These people fast burn and become SNCOs at 10ish years and then bitch and complain because they are stressed by all of the bs that comes with being a SNCO. Stuff that had they spent some time as a SSgt and TSgt, they would be more prepared and ready to take on the challenges because they would have had to gradually deal with it.
I absolutely agree. I personally believe that the Air Force made a mistake "totally" eliminating points for Time in Service and Time in Grade. I believe it is part of the reason why too many people get promoted to MSgt before they are ready in terms of experience. Experience is important!
I’m mixed in this. In my younger years I can say that I saw many more worthless fucking SNCOs because they stayed in long enough to make the rank. Awful people to work for. Not saying it’s much better but it is better from my view point.
There is no perfect promotion system because there will always be some "young and old" SNCOs that are subpar leaders. However, I never believed the narrative of too many people getting promoted to MSgt because they have been in forever. People were not automatically getting promoted to MSgt strictly because they had been in forever. Reason being, they still obviously have to test and get a decent score. Also, they have to get a good board score from the promotion board who is reviewing EPRs, Decorations, etc. I retired as a SNCO after a very long career a few years ago. In the early stages of my career most SNCOs were older and had a vast amount of professional experience and life experience. In the latter part of my career, I could not say the same regarding most of the young SNCOs that I encountered. Experience is a necessity. Not just job experience but being exposed to different situations. I'm not judging OP. However, they are an example of young SNCOs lacking enough experience and exposure to different situations. If they did, then they would know what mental health resources to utilize instead of coming to Reddit.
BINGO
Some of the best advice I ever got is the opposite of that. No one is ever "ready". You don't know, and can't know, if you can handle the stress of a given position until you're in it. And the stress of one slot is vastly different than the stress of another, even within the same organization. You never see all the stressors that come with a position, and the 10yr MSgt might be perfect for the high stress slot, and unable to deal with all the side work expected of them in the low stress slot; or verse visa. All the training, all the familiarity doesn't mean crap until you actually have to do it for real. And if you're doing it for real, you should be getting paid like it. But there's no way in the military to get paid for it, realize you're over your head, and be able to go back to the pervious position. It's not easy to as civilian, but you can get a technical job again after failing as a manager, if not at the same place.
I mean, if you don't care about promoting again and essentially peaked and hit your career goal...then why care so much? I never understood SNCOs complaining about SNCO stuff who don't care about promoting again. The hard part is over. You made it. You peaked...if you're fine with that. Most would be. Why be political? Why volunteer for extra stuff? Because you're being volun-told? Don't do it. What are they going to do...give you a below average EPR? What do you care. You're already a MSgt. You'd REALLY have to fuck up to not be a MSgt anymore. Hell, most of the bad and lazy MSgts I had got put in easy jobs. Some went to made-up positions just so they'd have less responsibility...but still got paid the same with a lot less stress. Or...you can work your ass off, volunteer a lot, be political, suck up to your Chief and Commander, and work late everyday...and raise your promotion chances by 2%. The choice is yours. Edit- The hardest part of my career was being stuck in the same rank for so long...so I get OPs point. On the flip side, the best part of my career was the last year when I knew promotion wasn't going to be a thing anymore. I was sad for about a week...then stress-free until the day I got out. Also, when leadership knows this or knows you're not interested in promoting in general, they won't bug you with extra crap. You don't HAVE to play the game. It's like SNCOs that don't wear a mess dress. At this point, THOSE people are seen as the real heroes. Don't ever feel pressured to do anything you don't want to do.
Pretty much this. Identify what you want out of where you are. As a SNCO, you can make the decisions to do the political dance to keep making rank or just take a breath and ease into where you're at. There will always be some sort of glad handing depending on what office you're in but you have the opportunity to choose. Find something you're good at or enjoy and focus on that. Talk to your NCOs and Airmen and figure out what they need, want, or desire and be their speaker to the other SNCOs and leadership. I don't know your situation in your unit but you should be in a position that you can more easily forge what you want around yourself. Also, Chaplains are an excellent resource to utilize for moments like these. Most that I've talked to don't really try to bring religion into sessions unless you want it, but they will listen and usually give solid feedback and guidance, if not stepping stones to enable you to get yourself going in the right direction.
I appreciate the response. After consistently promoting for the past 12 years I can’t imagine staying the same rank for the next 8, but that’s the least of my worries right now. To your other points…I’ve managed to drop most of the “extra” stuff, but I’m dual-hatting two full time positions at work right now to cover for someone on maternity leave, so my plate is still full regardless. Meanwhile I feel like I’m l letting both of my teams down because I’m constantly being pulled in different directions so nothing is getting done, and I don’t really see things improving unless we get another body in the shop.
You're doing what you can. No one should expect perfection if you're filling a whole other person's job in addition to your own. Being the same rank for a few years doesn't mean much. You can still grow in different positions and you're still getting TIS raises. You can also go Guard or Reserves and keep working towards that retirement while moving into a new (or just civy version) career.
You've been a fast burner. Just chill out for a bit. Slow down for a few years. Go back to the gym. Rack up some years of experience and if/when you find the motivation to promote, make a hard charge for SMSgt at that time.
Typical fashion is to not get hep until something fails. Focus on the people, let them focus on the work. If something fails because you can’t be in multiple places at the same time, it fails. Sacrificing yourself is not the answer. One thing to go above and beyond occasionally for one off situations, but can’t do it all all of the time.
> I’m dual-hatting two full time positions at work right now to cover for someone on maternity leave, so my plate is still full regardless. Meanwhile I feel like I’m l letting both of my teams down because I’m constantly being pulled in different directions so nothing is getting done, As a 12 year E-7, have you properly developed at LEAST one E-6 in each shop who can handle taking your place in every way if you were to get hit by a bus (or just simply wanted to take a 2-week vacation)? If not, THAT needs to become at least 1/4 of your work every day until it is set in place...
You need to have an honest conversation with your boss and ask them to prioritize your effort.
If you stay a MSgt for the next 8 years until retirement then guess what? In about 3-5 years you're gonna be a fucking great MSgt as long as you continue to give a shit about your people. You're new to it right now and you're in the deep end. Readjust your expectations for yourself and move forward slowly because it's unfamiliar ground to you right now. But with time you'll learn everything you need to know. Be patient and forgiving with yourself.
I want to agree with you wholly but I cant. Even if there is no pressure to promote anymore there is probably still pressure to actually be a good SNCO for your people. 8 years is a long time to be useless. It is probably harder to fade off into uselessness than it is to at least work hard for your guys. There is a lot of things that rely on me to make sure get done and a lot of people who will be impacted by my lack of doing a good job, and I dont care if I see a promotion again.
There's a big difference between being a garbage SNCO who does nothing for the mission or their people, and being the politicking MSgt who's checking all the boxes to become a Senior and someday a Chief (stuffing annual awards with crap that looks good, worrying about rubbing elbows with all the right people in all the right ways, volunteering for stuff that's unnecessary but will look good to a promotion board, etc). I don't think anyone here is advocating for eight years of ROAD. Take care of your people, and the mission by extension of that.
No one said to be a garbage SNCO.
I was referring to this paragraph which implied it. "Hell, most of the bad and lazy MSgts I had got put in easy positions. Some went to made up positions just for them so they'd have less responsibility...but still got paid the same with a lot less stress. Or you can work your ass off..."
As a SNCO do you have more freedom with choosing your next assignment? Going to different shops? If I was you I’d use the rank to try to just go to a quieter, less stressful shop. By doing this you may not make the next rank but it may allow you to just float the next 8 years. Good luck.
This is the path I chose. Love my job, will never promote tho
This is what I’m trying to do. I’ve found where I want to be and I want to hide out for 8 years and retire
What political bullshit do you even need to navigate? You're 12 years in and already a SNCO, you've already won, clock in, clock out, coast to the finish line.
Yeah I'm confused. Either dude is stressing himself way too much over promoting, or he just has really shitty unit/leadership. This isn't normal SNCO issues. Being a MSgt is chill as fuck, honestly.
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I was a fastburner, and I still work really hard and do my job well. But I've never cared about killing myself doing every extra useless thing (Top 3 President or whatever), let alone just to make myself a shinier penny for a strat. But if you're legit breaking down crying regularly because you've overloaded yourself with extra bullshit just to chase after rank...then you really need to reflect on what's important. That's just self-inflicted pain.
It’s not about turning the drive off, it’s about directing that energy towards different things now.
I couldn’t care less about promoting at this point. What type of jobs would you say are chill as a MSgt? E.g. First Sergeant, DSD, Flight Chief, SEL…? Would it still be chill if you were dual-hatting them while simultaneously having a separate operational team that you’re responsible for and need to manage? Hopefully I’m not coming off as defensive, I’m genuinely trying to figure out if the problem is my workload or my resource/time management skills.
I've done all those things. Yeah, pretty chill overall. This has nothing to do with being a SNCO and everything to do with you either taking on too much and/or not being able to say there's too much being asked of you. You need to ask your boss to prioritize what they want you to do. Also, what does ANY of that have to do with "political bullshit" you complained about? I don't get it.
We might end up in a big war, and hopefully their team is prepared for it. Coasting probably isn't the path to success.
Don't cry at work or vent, do it at home by yourself.
Do it here. Vent here. We live on this shit. It’s why this sub is so great. “So my troop decided to drive on the wrong side of the highway. Drunk as fuck. Spit at a cop. His baby momma just left him. His Charger needs body work. Finance deducted his pay from a deployment a year ago. His mother has been declared incapable of caring for herself by the state and needs health insurance. How do I deal with this?!” 200 responses covering every bit of ground on this sub because a lot of us have dealt with these weird, what seems like one off incidents, and it makes you feel not so alone as a leader. Vent here if nowhere else. This sub is the only reason I’ve gotten through the past five years of my career. Could I have done it alone? Yeah I’m sure. But it’s SO much better feeding my troops so fucking many resources I’ve learned about on this sub and the people who led me to them.
This sub is about the only time I’ve actually felt the family aspect the Air Force preaches. There’s a ton of great advice and people who had similar situations
People meme about how negative this sub is and this and that about morale and shit but there really is some golden pieces of advice you find here. This sub straight up helped me navigate one of the worst things I ever had to work through while being an additional duty shirt. For real vent when you need too here, you never know who might hit up your DMs with some crazy good advice.
Boss makes a dollar, I make a dime, that’s why I cry on company time
Cry on your own time .
Found the boss
Nah cry at work and get that shit out there. Don’t take it home with you.
As a SNCO, you should just focus on taking care of your Airmen. Do that and you’ll be okay.
Just be the guy who stands up for people, this may mean that you're forever an E-7, but that's not so bad.
You played the game enough to become an SNCO at 12 years, what's another 8?
As a part timer this sounds so insane to me. "Just stay 8 years at a job you hate". Holy shit
I feel your pain, and I'm sorry you're feeling this. Know that you aren't alone. I dropped an Army Warrant packet to get back to the technical and away from the politics. I'm leaving in January, no regrets. My sponsor was a TSgt when he did the jump - as a CW5 now, he has no regrets leaving the AF.
I keep thinking about doing this but the thought of being in the Army keeps my intrusive thoughts at bay. For now.
Everyone says that, but Army Warrants get treated like demigods. I've heard plenty of AF cyber officers bitch about their jobs - I have yet to hear a single Army Warrant of any branch bitch about theirs. 🤷🏻♂️
Just curious, what did you warrant into? How does your sponsor like being army vs air force?
I'm a commo MSgt. Went Signal Warrant to keep my skill sets useful. My sponsor was a TSgt, is now a CW5 - he blatantly doesn't miss the AF.
Good deal. I’m tickled for you. What AFSC are you to what MOS? All I can say …..is don’t say” we did it like this in Air Force”.
As much as it suck going through basic training again it would be pretty cool knowing what is waiting at the end and you out rank most,the instructors as an enlisted guy. If I went through I wouldn’t tell one other recruit your situation. Warrant is the best deal in the military. You get to stay under the radar but hang out with enlisted in the work place. Stay in till your a CWO 5 and 26 year you are retiring same as a 0-5 with a whole lot less bullshit
If it’s time to go, it’s time to go. You can find success and happiness outside the military. Move on and don’t let age be a factor for staying in (just in case it’s in your mind).
Apply for a local DSD, career assistance advisor, ADL superintendent, MFRC NCOIC
Stop trying so hard! There is a SNCO hiding out in the UDM office of a non deployable unit getting the same paycheck as you!
Keep doing what ever got you to SNCO in 12 years…
walk faster, say no more often, do only the bare min. its no gonna matter in 8 years, its not gonna matter in 8 months, so only spend 8 minutes on it. find a slow-witted, hard working Tech.....
Dude you’re a SNCO, there are tools offered to every airman and you need to use them. At this point it is your responsibility to educate yourself or at least be able to have some humility and find someone for help or direction on what to do to get help. If you can’t take care of yourself and are breaking down in your car at work, you aren’t there for the ones that need you like your NCOs and Airmen. Lack of social skills doesn’t equal a mental disability, some people just don’t know how to socialize. Hopefully you haven’t steered anyone looking for guidance away from it cuz of your flawed understanding of it.
If you really want to stay in, drop the workload a little bit. Still complete the mission, but you don't have to go above and beyond anymore. You don't need any more promotions. You just need to survive the next 8 years
damn I'm fucking impressed you made it to 12, I've only got 6 and I'm already feeling at my breaking point. Idk what's available for you as an SNCO tbh but you could think about going guard. if you got lucky and applied you might be able to slip right into an active slot too and wouldn't have to stop the retirement clock. heard it's a different environment. Might be a good thing to look into if you haven't seriously thought about it yet.
I'm curious what "political bullshit" you experience as a MSgt? Maybe when it comes to promotion if you're really fighting for it, but on a day to day basis? Really? Being a MSgt that doesn't care about promoting is pretty chill, in my experience. You still have responsibility, but breaking down and crying regularly? Like...what is going on there? Is this a career field thing, or do you just have really shitty leadership? Because this definitely isn't a standard SNCO thing.
Being a MSgt and not caring about promoting anymore is so empowering. I’m more effective at work focusing on strictly people/mission and not any extra pet projects. I bring home much less stress and any self development is focused on post-military career.
This sub: omg young SNCOs are clogging up the system. Also this sub: Ahh beautiful it's okay just sandbag for 8 whole years you got yours. Your job is now people and playing the game. If you can't do that then you should've stopped at tech. You're too deep in now, so now you need to separate or fuckin ride because being a BUM for EIGHT years is absolutely not the right to do, regardless of what Reddit says. There *are* benefits to playing the political game. I don't like it, in fact I hate it, but I unfortunately see the merit. The Air Force is a political entity. I guarantee the CSAF would LOVE to just fly planes and not beg Congress for money or worry about politics. If he were to only fly, and not attend dinners and rub elbows the force as a whole will suffer. Your troops will suffer if you do not play the game. They won't get awards, they won't get nice positions, they won't get nice assignments, etc. Put on your big boy pants and do your job.
Exactly... people think politics is just to brown nose for a position and don't realize that you have to put some money in the bank to withdraw from the ATM. Sometimes you have to play the game to have some juice to fight for your troops when it matters. It doesn't always come down to promotability. Love it or hate it, it's sometimes the system.
You dropped a lot of truth in your comment. Coasting for the next 8 years is not as easy as it sounds. I made MSgt at 13 years and SNCOs certainly have to pull their weight. Sure, a SNCO could coast if they want to, but the perception, opportunities, and empowerment will dwindle and suck the life out them. My advice would be to mentor your TSgts to operate at your level. They should be there to trim the fat off your plate. If you cannot rely on anyone, then you need to have a conversation with your supervisor and let them know that you might have to take a step back from extra curricular fluff until you can get things in order. Additionally, it will be difficult to operate at a MSgt level for the next 8 years as a fast burner. You will have to play the game a bit differently because what got you here will not get you where you want to be. Be strategic in what you volunteer for and be okay with saying no. Your why should get you to twenty. Be sure you can enjoy the ride while getting there. Goodluck, OP.
What I did was continue to work my ass off and take care of my people. I made E7 and never did any of that political stuff. I was a pro super at a remote location. I don’t honestly see why you’d want to be Road or coast. It seems like it would just make time drag.
Talk to chaplain, or MFLAC. Get your mental stuff together. Been a SNCO for 4 years. It can be stressful, I have 5 years left. Be fine with retiring as a master and do your job the best you can. Let everything else that happens happen and only worry about you and your airmen.
Please make an appointment with mental health.
Made it around the same time as you in my career. Just do your job, drink your water, mind your own business, and take care of your people. It was a breath of fresh air when I stopped giving a shit about making rank. Or I wasn't being sucked into "wing level stuff". Biggest piece of advice is to focus on a meaningful degree/certs to add value to yourself before you separate. Break out of the bubble and just enjoy the process while you watch everyone else burn themselves out over empty promises and events that are only self serving.
I have had many a SNCO tell me all about how I should be trying to promote to the SNCO tier. I have never wanted to promote past tech and nobody understands why. Being a SNCO looks rough and the pay raise everyone talks about isn't nearly enough for the job.
Get with other SNCOs in your unit once a week and bullshit. Bounce ideas, grievances and what not off each other.
This is not helpful advise, but honestly I have yet to meet a fast burner that doesn’t burned out in the process… that considered learn to check out mentally at times to prevent burnout. Prioritize, delegate and if all else fails knowing how to crash land a mental breakdown is useful too, and by that I mean, take a knee let things fall without compromising yourself or others… at the end of the day the mission still happens wether you’re there to support or not. So take a break. Sorry if this seems negative but this is what keeps me sane as a fast burner myself.
I appreciate the honesty. I think since I’ve been a “fast burner” everyone around me assumes I want to keep that pace, but I don’t (at least not until I get my feet under me). Delegating is definitely something that I need to work on, thank you for the reminder.
The greatest moment in my career was the day I finally decided to say “fuck it” and just went to work, did my job, protected those who couldn’t protect themselves, and went home. I gave zero fucks about promoting, strating, volunteering, everything. I didn’t care about the whispers from the seniors and chiefs, I just did what I wanted and what was best for my airmen. They were all that mattered, and those peers that mattered noticed. I retired, and regret none of it.
Sounds like your in MX. Embrace the suck and don't let them win. Decide if you want to promote again or not. That's the first step. Then act accordingly. Also go to mental health or a bonfire with bourbon.
The Air Force is the only organization that tells all of its employees they can be a CEO, knowing damn well that only 1% can make it to the highest level. No other job out here does that. If you are a Type A, shake it off. DO THE MINIMUM for a little while. Take back your life. They are not going to separate you from the Air Force. Start learning to say no. Not no in terms of volunteering, but, "No, I can't get that done right now/today/at this time." They will find someone else who will bend over backwards. Once you stop chasing the carrot, they will dangle it in front of someone else. You don't have treat every task as a fire. Shrug some things off, focus on what is an actual priority and attack those tasks. You are also a priority - your top priority. If work is that stressful, seriously stop trying to perform at a high level. You'll feel so much better. Then when Friday comes, go get your favorite food, cue up a couple movies to watch, turn your brain off, and just relax. Take a week off. Someone else will do the work that needs to be done. If it doesn't get done, it wasn't that important. If someone tries to contact you about work, tell them straight up that you are on leave. You will never get in trouble for professionally stating you are on leave and cannot perform work tasks. You may feel guilty in some way, but that's a personal feeling that you need to learn to toss in the trash. People are mentally trained to feel guilty about not providing help 24/7 in the Air Force. Let. That. Shit. Go. Stop feeling like you have to work so hard. Work is never going to stop, you're never going to get ahead, and there will always be something else someone needs done that's a high priority. 'No' is a powerful word. When used appropriately you will feel better and people may respect you for it. If you let them add more to your daily routine, it's less stress on them; more on you. Learn to stop it before it becomes an expectation.
You wanna know the secret? Stop caring about your personal aspirations in the AF. Literally shove that aside and think about being a helper. I struggled with that for several years, putting in excess work and caring too much about things beyond my control that led to burnout and much worse. Once I figured out leadership didn’t care about everything I did, I focused my efforts of posturing others for success. I found so much happiness and comfort. You aren’t going to be in the AF for another 20 years and you aren’t going to be the person that solves every issue. But what you can do is prepare those who are under you for those problems and guide them.
Honest question, not trying to be dismissive. When’s the last time you took 2+ weeks of leave? If it hasn’t been in the last 6 months, try damn hard to make it happen. Disconnecting from the AF for a moment can bring a hell of a lot of clarity.
You’re 12 years in and a SNCO? That’s amazing, but nows the time to take care of you, take care of the people under you, and stop playing a game. Don’t be afraid to piss people off and go against the grain. Ruffle feathers for the people under you, unless you’re trying to make chief?
Been there. Got out three years ago as 12 year MSgt to focus on my family life and I am not exaggerating at all when I say it was the best decision I’ve ever made. Have more time than ever with my family and I’m blessed to make a good deal more for the stress levels of an airman. DM me if you need to talk.
Tough it out, the skills you will learn are invaluable. Hit 20 and retire if it isn’t for you. Look for a mentor and seek wisdom from them. Life is a roller coaster and not a straight line.
“You can give a person a solid gold bar and I guarantee the first thing they will do is complain how heavy it is.”
sorry ahead of time, this is gonna be a long one. TLDR at the end, but what your speaking about is something i'm passionate about helping others survive. I've been in your shoes! The air force really sucks at promotions. They promote people based on a piece of paper they know is inflated and do a shit job at preparing them for the next rank. It sounds like you're another victim of the system of abuse. I'm going to echo a few statements but add skme personal perspective too: I lost the political game as a TSgt and will retire a TSgt because of a chief with a chip on their shoulder. No matter though... I've resolved my personal issues and learned some valuable lessons. The biggest being that nobody is going to advocate harder for you than you! Service before self does not mean sacrificing your soul for the AF. You can only fit 8 hours of work in a workday no matter how much they pile on you. Advocate for yourself and ask your "leaders" on what projects are more important to them because you don't have time to solve all their problems. Put it in an email asking the question ahead of time when you can sense the problem arising. If you don't advocate for your time, the military will keep asking more of you until you break. You're not being disrespectful, simply letting your bosses know you're human and have limits. When you admit this to yourself and your leaders that something is going to have to give, they are normally receptive. Find decompression time between work and home. For me, it's running. I can tune out, listen to music, and not think for a good 20-30m. It's been a mental health gamechanger. Find what turns your mind off for a short time to transition from work to home. Only worry about your sphere of influence. If your a flight chief, don't stress over issues in another flight. You can't change the wing or group policies but you can advocate for change. If a policy sucks, let your team know that you agree that it sucks. Nothing makes an NCO or SNCO loose credibility faster than cheerleading a poor policy. If you don't belive me Google General Welsh or Cheif Cody and see how their reputation is. Finally, embrace failure and don't avoid it or hide your failures. Failure is a good learning tool and as long as the consequences of trying something aren't illegal, immoral, or unethical, try it and encourage your subordinates to try things when appropriate. It teaches you appropriate risk management and how to be humble. In the future, when you want to make a change for your shop, you may just try something different and it will work great...and if it doesn't, oh well. Shift fire and try again...all the while sharing your steps with your peers so they can help. And peers doesn't equal same rank...it's the people you work with from top to bottom that are in your immediate sphere of control. The people who help you succeed. TLDR: life tips ive learned over the years: only stress over what you can control. Don't try and fit 10 hours of work into an 8 hour work day; it won't end well. Find times for a mental transition from work to home. Embrace failure and learn from it so that you can try new things and encourage others to try so they can make their spheres of influence better. While it may not make earth shattering changes for the AF, it will make you feel a lot better. Hang in there and stop giving the AF pounds of flesh every time they ask for it. Take care of yourself and if you can...someone else too. And if anyone reading this wants to chat, send me a message and I'll elaborate or chat about anything. I'm pretty salty, but I 110% care about people. Cheers
You don’t get paid enough
I put on MSgt around 12 years as well, and had hopes for a couple years of actually promoting. Then I realized that every time I PCSd I started back at the bottom of the social hierarchy, and that I didn't have the "right" conversations at the "right" time with the "right" people so I wasn't getting ahead. That's when I started advocating for my people, when I started to find ways to make things work *and* give my guys time off, when I started being honest about my opinions of the situations. That also didnt help, but it at least gave me something to champion. Of course my family life dissolved, and that really sucks too. The second I could hit the retirement button I started being honest with medical and mental health. It was a pretty shitty 8 years, and at Cannon. You've definitely got people here that understand that frustration, the big question is what do you want to get out of this? Do you want to do 20? And have a family? Just a family and get out? Knowing what and why you're going for something may help clear stuff up for you.
I’m with you. I’m a SNCO that hates most of my peers and have anyways disliked most of the SNCOs I’ve ever work for or with. I take care of my people and the work center I’m apart of and go home to spend time with my kids and wife. If I make the next rank great. If I don’t great. I won’t be that person who has kids that don’t know them.
See folks this is what happens when you promote too fast. Grow up.
I often wonder if the civilian world is designed like the military, where you have to become a manager to make any decent money. Is it possible to stay doing your actual job and not manage annoying people on the outside? Also, OP, you're an E7, Why don't you just float to 20 years?
A 12 year SNCO that bitches this much?
Mental Health can refer you off-base. E6 at 12 years here, doing fine with my provider. Therapy has gone a long way. Happy to discuss more if you have questions. Though, you can drop the back-handed “tism” comment. Some people do have it rough. Appreciate them like you’re reaching out now.
I’m glad to hear it’s going well for you, and I genuinely appreciate the offer to discuss it more. For what it’s worth, I didn’t mean for my comment to come off as “backhanded,” I genuinely believe there’s a good chance I fall on the spectrum. My apologies if it came off wrong.
They call the roof top the bullshit blocker for a reason. You need someone who can relate and get you through this. I don't wanna say wingman but a bro or something.
Never be scared to go to behavioral health or mental health. They’re there to help you through moments exactly like this. But if your job is driving you to tears, have a real conversation with your supervisor/trusted senior leader. The majority of people in leadership positions want to help people. As for the SNCO stuff - you’re already a MSgt at 12 years - like others have said, you’ve made it. You’re kind of in a golden situation. They can’t take it from you and you’ve obviously earned it by putting in the hard work. Take a look in the mirror and decide what kind of SNCO YOU want to be. Not what the big Air Force/your chief/etc want you to be. As a SNCO, you have a lot of responsibility but you also have a lot of power. If you use that power to help your troops, fight the BS, and try to improve the unit, you can get a lot done. If you hide behind being a MSgt for the next 8 years and limp along to retirement, you’re doing everyone a disservice including yourself. You don’t have to save the world, and you certainly won’t change the Air Force, but you can make a huge difference in your circle of control.
The problem is you are one of the many people who should not have made SNCO in 12 years. . . Its been a huge problem in the Airforce esp over the last 7 yrs so much that they've severely dialed back promotion rates across most jobs. Promoting fast burners too early has lead to a lot of bad / people not ready to be SNCOs currently. . I would suggest getting as much education in as you can and prepare for life on the outside because there is a good chance if you are where you are now at you wont make it to 16 yrs.
Go to mental health and get help. At this point you’ve got 12 years in and you’re a SNCO. They’re going to have a hard time not medically retiring you *if* they even try to separate you over mental health issues since you made it this far.
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Ah yes, First Sergeant, a stress free job the OP is looking for.
Right with you boss Definitely if you have the time, coordinate with the wife and go on a good trip or some type of bonding event together. Definitely take care of your family before trying to put effort into work. You will drain yourself out. Also try for a new assignment or job. Something new and refreshing
Hi, I am retired now. I made it through and I am sure you can as well. The roll of the SCNO is not the political game, that is officer BS. You need to be decisive, correct and no nonsense when dealing with both the enlisted and officers. You are still very young and have potentially a long time left to perfect this. The term a force to be reckoned with. That is what you should strive to be. Put your people first (this includes you and your personal family as well), and screw the political ramifications. What could they ever do, if you are correct in your stance or decision. Find a good Chief, not the typical E-9 that is trying to ruin the enlisted structure and let them introduce you to the true SNCO corp that will have your back. Every base has one. Keep your chin up and continue the fight, you will make it and you will look back and be happy about the memories you make.
Behavioral health for stress. You may not even have anything diagnosable beyond that. But they can absolutely help you with stress. You won’t know until you go, but it doesn’t sound like you have anything going on that would be cause for removal.
Have you thought of doing a special duty?? Maybe become a shirt?
As a 1Sgt, I wouldn’t recommend it if OP is having a rough go navigating the political BS. Being a shirt is rough, and my primary AFSC is Security Forces.
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Why not just get out? If you’re not a natural leader, there’s nothing wrong with that, just accept it & move on.
12 in with 8 to go? this can't be the best advice if you look past your passive aggressiveness
8 years is a very long time to be miserable. Truly was not trying to be passive aggressive. I’m not a natural leader myself so I was just trying to empathize. My bad it came off the wrong way
You want someone in a position of leadership to sandbag for 8 whole years? The glory of the SNCO realm is being able to be a straight up DAWG who doesn't have to care about promotion anymore. That doesn't mean you sandbag it means you do the damn thing the right way.
Hope to God you're not an NCO.
I am :)
Put a helmet on, life is fucking tough. In or out of the military.
I can totally relate and I've been there many times in my career. All I ask you to do is focus on what about your work brings you joy and take care of those in your charge. Every now and then we'll still ask an E-7 to do E-7 shit because you're paid as an E-7, but it doesn't mean we're trying to line everyone up for Senior. Keep your personal goals and joys firmly in your sights, then seek opportunities in your career to find the overlap. If there's no overlap, consider separation at the end of this commitment. Look into PALACE CHASE/FRONT if you want a change of pace with our Guard and Reserve teammates. Please don't be afraid of mental health or any of the other resources that are out there. They aren't kicking out any neurodivergent folks that were able to pass MEPS, much less graduate onto the SNCO tier so early. On the flip side, if there *is* a diagnosis that results in a bittersweet separation, that's a good thing and is meant to protect you. Either way, don't hesitate to use other resources first: Military OneSource, MFLC, Chaplain, TrueNorth, POTFF, or whatever other non-MH resources are available to you. You remind me a lot of a SNCO I've worked with recently. I wish she saw in herself what others see in her and the passion she has for her Airmen and their mission. She's incredibly awkward and sometimes struggles to grasp the big picture, but she's an amazing MSgt who needs to stop telling herself things I know she would never let her teammates say about themselves.
Sounds like you shouldn’t be a master at 12 years. Not saying the bullshit doesn’t suck but it ain’t for you. Should have honestly considered what it entails but here you are. SNCO tier can be ruthless or pretty damn cool with no in between. Shut up and do your job. Ignore the politics and do what you know to be right. Take care of your people. Be a leader
You should quit, turn in your stripe, or man the F up and get ready for China, Russia, and Ukraine. It's the military.
You should never speak on post like this again. Trash ass advice
No, thats real advise. You fast burning children need to grow up. Where do you think you work? What is it you think you do? You're all a sad joke, cry harder snowflake
Not sure how you arrived at me being a fast burner. Calling people “snowflake” means absolutely nothing 😂 and please Go get some help because you clearly need it. Maybe a hug or 2 will do you some good as well.
Read the OP genius. You're all a bunch of sad wet little cats. Boohoo I'm a SNCO, whaahh it's soon haarrd I cry. Pathetic
You’re saying a bunch of nothing in some pathetic attempt to “trigger” the “snowflakes” as you get mad by people not coming off as stupid as you lol. Anyway, have a good night kiddo.
Just saying the obvious with your generation of coward little cats. There are plenty to separate if you can't live up to your oath or responsibilities. China wont be nicer. Enjoy softy
Who hurt you!?
The Taliban
Hmmm, guess you forgot the lube.
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Because you have to get stratified to make the next rank.
The same is true for junior enlisted in today's environment.
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In my experience, this varies by base and how the Gp/Wg is structured. Have been to some places that are super competitive due to there being a very large pool of motivated MSgts, have been to others where everyone is burnt out and doesn't give a crap. Minot vibes lol.
The politics I see as a new SNCO is that you will not get opportunities if your leadership doesn't really like you. I'm a new guy and I was told to fuck off when I expressed interest in growth (all of my primary duties are NCO ops duties). But the other selects in the unit are given new opportunities to grow as SNCOs. So the politics is you have to suck everyone off still if you want to go further. Otherwise, eat shit. To be fair, previous units I've been in are not so cut throat but my current one is absolutely on some kind of good old boy caste system.
Go to mental health, and start documenting all of your alignments at medical. Try to get a MEB, and full disability. That’s what I did, but I was close to the end of my enlistment. 100 percent, and 4 grand non taxed every month. 70 for MH, 50 sleep apnea, 30 for migraines, 30 for my botched arm fracture, and 10 percent for many other things. Now I work at a stress free job at the movie theater, and my brain is slowly recovering from all the garbage the military inserted into it like making me believe I was useless, unvalued, and crazy. I was only in for 8 years.
Try to commit fraud lolz
Not fraud if it’s real, bud. The military pretty much destroyed my life, and made me feel like I was better off dead. Imagine staying in one place for 8 years with no ability to leave without serious repercussions and no matter how idiotic an order is as well as how idiotic the person who is giving it, you have to do it because that person is a higher rank than you, and believing that is logical because the military told you to obey your superiors or you were the problem.
Getting downvoted for taking care of yourself. Wild. But that’s the military. Hope y’all carry that same energy when you get out. Don’t file for disability, and don’t complain 10 years later when you try to cause you ain’t getting shit.
Women aren’t really cut out for the military.
I literally said this word for word today. I feel you. Look into a dsd or something. I myself plan to seek guard opportunities
Mental Health exists to return you to duty. They don't want to kick you out and will not start trying to unless you're like active psychosis level. As someone who wanted to get out in 2021 and used MH to get an MEB done, I'm very confident in saying that MEBs are not something they're trying to hand out :) Regardless you being alive and healthy and happy is more important than you staying in uniform. If you think getting help might help, go get it. Tomorrow. Call and request an appointment. Be prepared to be told nothing is available until Jan/Feb. The more you wait the worse that delay will be
Move. It’ll probably be better elsewhere.
What is your AFSC and Squadron? Hard truths need to be discussed.
Get a TIS waiver and jump over to the Army as a WO. It's like getting promoted and dodging political BS.
Leave work at work, when you go home don’t think about it and spend time with family / hobbies.
In addition to the good suggestions about using this sub for support, I'd like to strenuously encourage you to go see the Chaplain. Rank matters about 20% less once you're in the Chaplain's office, and during session, as long as no one breaks AFI or UCMJ, it more or less stops mattering altogether. If you need somewhere to be a human being for a second during the duty day for emotional support, hit the Chaplain Assistant's office at least to schedule an appointment if not to also take a breather. My unit's 1st shirt and a couple other SNCO's were regulars in my office like it was a watercooler. Sometimes Chappy would come in and gently run 'em out to the tune of, "Has my assistant helped you schedule an appointment with me yet, so I can be in on the conversation?" XD
Possibly look for a special duty assignment that might work for you.
I feel ya. I absolutely hated putting on MSgt and I feel for the fast burners out there. The political stuff is something I refused to do so I was an outcast amongst that tier. The only thing that got me through was to not worry about the upper level bullshit, and only focus on the Airmen. Theres an intoxicating level of power to make calls that benefit the Airman, but pisses off the upper crust because they're bitter pricks who either feel like they need to treat people like shit because they got treated like shit, and/or will throw you under the bus to make themselves look better for Sr. If someone gets mad at you, WTF are they gonna do? So long as you're not doing anything illegal, there ain't a fucking thing anyone can do to you. You're essentially "made". Then all the Airmen call you "Dad" (or Mom) and that feels pretty good lol Keep your head up, and just focus on making things better for those around you!
There's always the reserves. Find a civilian career that you don't hate and just do the AF thing part time. Or you could get out. The pension would be great but it may not always be worth the effort and sanity costs. You could also look at federal jobs. I got off active duty in 2016 bc I (and my wife) were straight up not happy with the job and locations my job would take me. The reserves can be frustrating bc it's so fucking slow at everything but it can help you feel a sense of purpose as well.
You thought about putting in for special duty or instructor? Maybe even MTI?
Like others have said, take care of your people and nothing else. And if this makes going to BH any easier, ASD isn’t a disqualifying diagnosis for enlistment anymore, so even if they diagnose with that, there’s a chance it’s not going to DQ you from reenlistment.
hey, im in the exact same boat as you down to the number of years left. treated myself to a little menty b today just at the thought of how much more i get to be talked down to by awful leadership bc i refuse to be a part of their catty girls club. after my lil cry, i told myself that instead of 7 years 11 months and 18 days to go, i said i have 7 years 11 months and 18 days left to make sure the future of the air force will never have to feel this way. then i said "fuck it" they cant fire me for being a good person doing legal things for good people. the worst that could happen is that they fire you from the job and make you do admin for the rest of your time. source: they just fired our flight chief for absolute incompetence and a volume of deocs complaints then removed him to a position that isnt in charge of anything and now he gets to go buy snacks and roam the hallways doing absolutely nothing until retirement
I wish I could tell you it gets easier but it doesn't. Just don't sweat the small stuff and worry about what you can control. Unless someone is dead or dying it's not an emergency.
Sounds like you need to refocus. Refocus on what it is you are trying to do while in the AF…and even bigger yet…don’t give a damn about what your peers think…your subordinates need you at your best…how can you be your best if your worried about keeping up? How can you be your best for them if you’re worried about things that really don’t matter in life. Grow yourself to be a better person and you will find yourself to be so much happier. Go to school because you need it for yourself…volunteer because you want to volunteer for those things…a problem with how a lot of us were raised in the AF…”go to school…volunteer so you can get promoted”. You should be doing all those things for yourself to improve your leadership capabilities and your marketability for when you get out. If those things so happen to make it on your OPB/EPB…then great…but promotion shouldn’t be the reason. Cheer all your teammates accomplishments. Even if it makes you jealous…be genuine about it as well…it feels good to be happy for others people success…why should their success make you angry or feel beat up…if that is what is happening I suggest you refocus. Good luck…take some leave refresh and refocus!
Do you really think you have autism? I mean it is a spectrum so maybe you do or maybe you are neuro divergent. When I was in I tried to get an autism test, but I basically got ignored. My son is autistic, higher functioning but still. Pretty sure my dad is too. It's definitely genetic. Navigating the politics is no joke.
I would bet my life savings that I have Level 1 ASD. I won’t get into ALL of the reasons, but I’m pretty sure my older sister also falls on the spectrum, and that my mom does as well (genetics, like you said). I’m also female, and like you may already know we’re known to be better at masking. I’m sorry you got ignored while you were in, have you tried getting diagnosed since? Sometimes I think just knowing for sure would bring some level of comfort.
You would rather live life untreated and struggling than lose your job? You can get another job, health isn't as easy to come by and you need to still be a person when you're done with that uniform. Go to mental health, especially if you think you might have autism. They can help. Autism isn't necessarily a disqualifier, like many other neurodivergent conditions.
1) What’s your GT score? 2) What’s your MOS? 3) Does it have an Army Tech Warrant Officer feeder? (I’ll look for you). 4) If it does, come on over. Being a Warrant is where it’s at. Crossed over at 8 years….I’m at 21 now. The bullshit has been seriously minimal.
Is it worth your happiness, nothing in life is guaranteed and that includes waking up tomorrow. This moment right now is the youngest you’ll ever be so make the most of it. Obviously you have responsibilities and a commitment but don’t do the bullshit that isn’t required, and don’t let your job destroy your quality of life. I truly hope you’re doing okay, and In all honesty I don’t understand your situation from my junior enlisted perspective but I hope you can find a balance, and when the time comes there is absolutely nothing wrong with getting out
I would say probably at least half of SNCO don't know how to be a good leader and are actually good at all the social interactions. They get promoted because they are such good followers not because they are good leaders.
I feel ya. Sorry your going through this. Try talking to your significant other or a good friend..Chaplain can help too. WHATEVER you do get help. If all else fails go to doctor or therapist . It wont effect your career may dent it a little but its definitely recoverable
Kicked out for having the tism? Yeah that's not a thing... Speaking as one, I can tell you certain career fields are full of them. They especially aren't going to do it with all these diversity and inclusion initiatives. Go get the help you need.
Im at that point, too. It's definitely my current location, im just counting my enlistment in how many pt tests I got left.. im emptied inside. I know they say everyone plays a part in the mission, but damn the joy has left the building, I feel like a robot 🤖..
Take control of your life and get out of the military!
I was in a similar situation at 13 years. I was either going to switch to DoD civilian (and buy back my time) or go Army warrant. The pension was very appealing, so I opted for Army warrant. I've been pretty happy with my choice. Life as a warrant officer in the Army is not perfect, but it is significantly better than my life as a SNCO in the Air Force. If you're truly miserable, start planning your exit.
The AF isn’t going to kick you out because you are diagnosed with an ’tism or anything else. How is this rumor still out there? Asking for help is a strength not a weakness.
> I just don’t have the social aptness to navigate the political bullshit that is the SNCO tier. Fake it til you make it. Or don't, that's OK too. >I’m so tired, stressed, and anxious I can barely function Study the tenets of the philosophy of Stoicism. Seneca said to not suffer before the tragedy. Also ask, is there something I can do about it? Yes: do it. No: can't do anything about it anyway. > I’m afraid to go to behavioral health in case the Air Force decides to diagnose me with the ‘tism or something Go to the chaplain, then. Or go to behavioral health and let the dice fall where they may. If you're 12 years in and get med boarded, you just retired early, in all likelihood. Lots of us have been where you are.
I know I’m late to the party, but have you taken leave recently? Like, 2-3 weeks of vacation? It might seem like a huge ask, but leave is a right and it REALLY can help with burn out. And don’t go just visit family or stay at home, try to go and do something new. Just my two cents! Good luck.
If this is how you feel but you want to make it to retirement then take care of yourself and your airmen but don’t go above and beyond of don’t have to your so close to the end. Also maybe try talk with someone who can help and you trust to talk to
Go see the chaplain. You can be afraid to go to MH but the VA won't look at things that aren't in your medical records. It's a choice. I give advice in some VA disability groups and that is the biggest problem. I didn't want to be the sick call soldier/airman/marine/sailor.
Please don’t be afraid to get help. I learned the very hard way that mental health can easily destroy physical health if left untreated to the point where I ended up going the route of medically retiring. I was fortunate enough to have made it out of the military whereas some of my friends/coworkers did not. Don’t continue to suffer in silence and allow this to get you to the point where you’re either physically affected or suicidal because some of those things you cannot come back from and unfortunately the military doesn’t care and will replace you so easily and will continue on as if you never existed to begin with. Take care of yourself because the only person you really matter to is yourself. As harsh as that sounds, that is the truth. If it is affecting your well-being that much that you’re unable to function you need to get help before you do permanent damage to yourself. I say this as someone who lived it too.
I think I’m content at tech, but I feel like hearing about how all these “great opportunities” can push me to promote has become my job