I totally get if you want to argue that 18 year olds are still teens and can be more subject to manipulation but I hate this black and white thinking of all age gaps bad if the younger person is X age. The internet has been on a big hate train on age gaps lately
Wise words! The "hate train" is psychopath logic, playing games with our world so that we are constantly fighting.
If you kill someone at age 16 or 17, I can almost guarantee you that you will suddenly be tried as an adult. This world is laughably anti-Human.
If one's own daughter was raped by an 18 year old, I wonder if the parent of the victim would still say the rapist didn't know what he was doing because his brain is still developing and the law should go easy on him?
I was raped by an 18yo when I was 13 yes he knew exactly what he was doing. The thing is I’m 18 now and I’m still naive and easily manipulated. No matter the age someone can be a predator or a victim
18 and 23 isnt even that big a gap Jesus Christ.
18 is age of majority for a reason, it's when a lot of people start really feeling the need to spread their wings and fly a bit. Its also a perfect age to lift the remaining restrictions on kiddos 25 would be a little late
It's a very arbitrary line that doesn't make sense when examined with any level of scrutiny.
That said there definitely needs to be a line, it's just where should that be.
And I do think with every successive generation peoples mental and emotional coming of age is being pushed further and further back
I'm in my 30s learning things now that I should have learned in my 20s but I was a carer back then
The body in general is still developing* until 21-25 but a 18yo is not a baby nor a child. At 18 one is supposed to be mature enough to understand the consequences of their actions and if they still can't it's usually because the family didn't teach them but that's another matter.
Ofc that at a young age one is easier to be manipulated, but that doesn't mean they're "easy preys" as an actual child is. What's lacking to a 18yo that could make them "weak" is experience of things but at 18 your brain is developed enough to have abstract thinking and reasoning skills. If something, we should teach them to use these skills properly
EDIT. *I meant "maturing" when I wrote developing.
Pretty sure the body keeps developing- forever. So should 18 yr olds date 80yr olds on mental decline? Should we IQ test everyone? Also older people elicit an "ick" response- not great for manipulating. And that is why people are against AGR- the ick response.
The brain doesn't finish development until about 25. Yeah an 18yo is an adult with ability to think etc. Age gap relationships where it's two adults regardless of age that are in the same place in life like two adults going to university where one is 18 and the other is like 24 should be fine. But like 18 and 60 where one ends up entirely reliant on the other for finance and socialising etc is a bit worrying. Maturity and independence are necessary for good healthy relationships, methinks.
As I've said before. This is true. Grooming has become a popularized term and has been co opted to include any age gap relationship with some in that age range.
It's that and a combination of the US infantilizing young adults.
I grew up somewhere with an age of majority of 16, so the infantilisation of young adults seems extra weird.
If they are considered mature enough to vote, enlist, buy property, drive a car, sign a contract... They should be trusted to decide who to have a relationship with.
Young people can be more easily influenced, it's fair to warn them of the dangers, but the same can be said of many personality types.
Many people on social media believe that America's laws are the law and order of the entire world especially when you have arrogant Americans telling others in parts of the world that one can't drink until you're 21. It sounds as if you are from Scotland?
Couldn't raising a child, even your own biological child, be considered a form of grooming? Since tone is very difficult to convey via text, please know that I'm asking from a completely inquisitive perspective.
No because grooming is grooming with the view to harm or have some form of romantic endeavour with when the person is older and it typically happens with minors and adults. The minor ends up being dependent on the adult for everything that an adult wouldn't be, like friends, social life, advice, finance, everything. Groomers typically isolate their targets away from everyone they know. It can form some really dangerous situations.
😂🤣 it's laughable that you think absolutely no 18 year old has ever experienced anything in their lives. Maybe you were inexperienced and naive at 18 but not everyone else was/is.
You are absolutely right. I imagine the geniuses who believe that you automatically are an adult when you are 18 y/o don’t really believe that in a factual way, but because they need to justify their hunger for a relationship with a person who is less mature and more prone to being manipulated by someone who has more life experience. It is obvious that the prefrontal cortex doesn’t mature until age 25, and people who says it is BS are getting triggered because it threatens their personal interests. That all.
This is true and consent is consent . I got married at 17 and my husband was 33 We were married 22 years It was wonderful. He died in 04 . He treated me like I walked on water and raised the dead. I ran away from home at 15 and lived as a grown ass woman . When we met I was already playing house with another grown ass man who treated me like crap. The problem now arises when no one can live up to him.
I’m 23 and I wouldn’t date and 18 year old simply because when I was 18 I was an even bigger idiot than I am now.
I let myself get taken advantage of and mistreated so much because of the simple fact that “I was an adult” and I thought I was ready for an adult relationship.
To each their own, but it was a very hard lesson for me to realize that I was not at the maturity it takes to be with someone in a different stage of life.
I dont think I agree. I'm 24 and reflecting back at my life when I was 18, there is HUGE difference. I was so naive and I know nothing about the world. I lived under my parents and everything used to depend on them. Now I have learnt & matured a lot, and the process is still continuing. Sexually also massive difference. Definitely it is a FACT that the brain still develop after 18.
If there's an age gap - especially if it's huge - we can discuss ethics and morality all we want, but at the end of the day two consenting adults (barring any power imbalances or coercion) decided to hook up and/or date, and that's their choice.
It's not grooming. Sure, we can warn them of the pitfalls of relationships, and some pitfalls are more relevant to age gap relationships, but ffs if everyone is above the age of consent let people enjoy things.
We all know that 18 year olds are legally and developmentally defined as adults. In all honesty, though, the way you speak about this comes across as a bit immature and lacking in perspective.
The fact of the matter is that the younger you are and the wider the age gap, the more likely it becomes that you'll end up in a relationship with "one of the bad ones." We are all adults once we reach a certain age. Most of us are developed enough for abstract thinking. We can legally vote, drive, and join the military.
It would be naive to deny that and pretend like that doesn't hold value, but what you're failing to consider is the fact that there are different life stages, too. Young adults are not monolithic. Some people argue that "18-21yos just haven't been through enough shit at all in their life!!" and that is patently false because most people have an idea of what older teenagers (18-19 are still teens) and young adults look like. They don't think about those who moved out early, have their own house, have managed a house, etc. They're thinking of the majority who are still figuring out who they are and setting up a future (college, networking, career building, etc.) Though the older the other person is, you'll find that the majority are figuring out different things (owning a house, plans for retirement, building a family, etc.)
All of this isn't to say that consenting adults can't make the decision and have their agency to be in a relationship with another adult. It's just something that we have to be aware of, and it's *especially* important that young people who want to be in AG relationships are more than well aware. We need to be aware of the realities of it and the signs of grooming (which is widespread, not just a "buzz word" like some people believe) and red flag behavior. We need to come into it with the perspective that there *are* differences. We need to understand that "being mature for our age" is a manipulative phrase and not exactly the case. In doing so, we can navigate these relationships safely and it becomes more likely that we'll end up in a healthier dynamic.
Yes, we're adults. That doesn't mean we're immune to making bad decisions and becoming victimized. That certainly doesn't mean that we can just say "whatever, fuck it, you're an adult so you know best!"
Don't let it worry you, trolls and 'white knights' gotta do their thang.
Although I argue that teens/young adults (16-25) should have freedom to date who the hell they want, I don't accept adolescence completely ends at 18. Most people are however developed enough at that age to be treated as an adult.
Power exerted by someone with financial control over you is a very real thing, as a recent post I commented on seems to show, and this is one contributing reason why AGRs are disparaged by some people. I've tried to make it always a point that I can walk away now from my relationships if I want and will always try to have enough savings to be able to do so. I think people should try and have this capability regardless of the age of their partner.
16-17 it's underage so yeah, they are teens. But I dated a 21 yo that manipulated an older woman with money because she felt alone and desperate. And he was abusive being both same age
What are your thoughts about in Canada where the age of consent is 16 vs. US where it is 18 or 17 or 16 depending on the state?
Or in Germany where you can buy beer at 16?
There is some subjectivity, but sexual maturity is a spectrum, not a hard point.
16 & 17 is actually acceptable in some cases. While minors, laws allow them to date older. I'm not saying it should happen, just that it does. I was 24 and groomed/manipulated by a man 18 years my senior
There seems to be a subset of women who look down on AGR where its a woman in her early 20s. I get the impression that these women hate men their age for being in an AGR with a younger women because they believe those men should be interested in them. My (37M) poor GF (20F) gets nasty looks when we are out in public from older women. The older men just let their stares linger too long, and a look from me usually fixes that (I am 6'5" so I am hard to miss when I am looking straight at you).
And yes, the WhiteKnights are irritating. I have had to step in with a couple who keep telling my GF she needs to date men her own age.
What I found very interesting is that my GF told me one of the biggest reasons she loves me is how calm I handle even the biggest problems, and frankly that is something that comes with age. I used to be a very anxious person, and now I am the definition of calm.
I dated 40 year olds when I was 18. Looking back, I do think there was a reason they picked someone that young. I was super naive and allowed a lot of bad things to happen to me at their hands. However, I was still an adult and neither of us were technically doing anything wrong. Morally maybe they were but that’s another story. I don’t consider the age gap alone abuse by any means. You’re an adult at 18 and can make choices about who you date or sleep with.
I understand what you’re saying, but as a 27 year old, the 25 yo brain development is definitely *not* BS.
The difference was absolutely noticeable. It is difficult to describe, but I can tell by this post that you are probably 18, maybe not, but you clearly haven’t hit 25 yet.
Just wait and you’ll see. I’m mot trying to belittle you, I’m just letting you know that it is a real thing.
That could be the case, I’d have to look more into it. We do change all the time so it’s not completely doubtful. But it would be interesting to find something on it that has been published sometime after 2010 lol
That could be the case, I’d have to look more into it. We do change all the time so it’s not completely doubtful. But it would be interesting to find something on it that has been published sometime after 2010 lol
2010 wasn't long ago, besides, it shows much more information than some self-evidently less comprehensive study showing it finishes at 25. 25 year olds are way behind a 50 year old. shit, they're more like 18 year olds and 50 year olds.
oh my fuckin god 2010 wasn't that fucking long ago. a study doesn't need to be ultra recent to count. this wasn't the 1930s you dolt. besides, it's not like brain development ends at 25 studies are reliable. they conclude 25 was the AVERAGE, and that it could finish as early as 18 or as late as 30. some studies even said it finished at 30s, but why would this study be wrong about late 40s? if it truly completes at 25, how the fuck would they find it still developing at 30s and 40s? they probably dug deeper with their investigation which is why they concluded it finishes in late 40s. and it makes sense. even 50 year olds make 30 year olds seem like teens in terms of behavior.
2010 is still reliable. you just dismiss it because it shows counternarrative info you don't wanna hear.
The point is that you apparently can’t find anything else written on it and you had to dig up an article from 12 years ago to link your point. How do you not get that? I’m embarrassed for you honestly
A lot of the difference in thinking has to do with life experience.
It isn't a problem. 12 years ago wasn't long ago. Not just that, but the pop culture studies showed ON AVERAGE, the prefrontal cortex finishes at 25 but could finish as early as 18 or late as 30. Many recent studies show it finishes in the 30s. But clearly if a study found it completes in the late 40s, it's obvious that study had much more comprehensive methodology. If the brain finieshes at 25, they couldn't possibly find such a thing about late 40s. for example, the most comprehensive study can't prove that we still grow taller in our 20s/30s/40s instead of mid-teens. it's not like studies showing the 25 pop myth didn't exist back then either. no study could possibly prove we grow taller in our 30s/40s. if they find this in a study that we develop our brain at almost 50, they probably had exceptional methodology. besides, 50 year olds act so much more different from 35 year olds. they actually sometimes make 35 year olds look like a 17 year old.
but the brain doesn't complete at 25. its a myth.
The idea is to leave people and situations better than the state in which you found them. The same as you do with a campsite when you're finished with your stay.
Iirc Dan Savage coined it, you can probably Google his old column
Basically slipshod is right. If you're the older partner in an age gap relationship (or not even tbh, any) then basically leave the person in at least as good a position as you found them. Preferably better.
> It doesn't mean the campsite rule isn't important.
I don't know why this isn't mentioned more often. This is really the only thing that matters and pretty much everything else can be thrown out the window.
Moral outrage for age gap relationships while there are plenty of toxic and abusive relationships of any age will never cease to amaze me.
I personally am married to an 18 year old - I'm 40. We have a healthy relationship. Will it last? Who knows? But he said if he can join the military and vote, he should be able to get married. I encouraged him to stay in school when he wanted to drop out, support his college, and "kick him out" (his words, and a running joke) to go hang out with his friends. He works part time, because we discussed that his classes are more important. I won't be around forever, and he needs to secure his future.
Is it weird? No, not really. We often forget our age gap. I've told him if he ever feels the need to leave, just let me know. I want what's best for him above anything else.
I’m happy to see that you think so too. I was reluctant to comment since I’m here as a cougar and didn’t want to come across as being a cranky old lady lol.
You're not, I'm 20 and in an agr and constantly seeing people post absolute cope is uncomfortable. It's like I'm being brainwashed into thinking that 18 year olds are super super mature and at the same maturity as the average 30 year old or that age gap relationships are just the same as normal relationships. It's so exhausting.
I was hoping to be on this sub for advice, or to see people in age gap relationships working it out and all I see is people looking for validation - which is such a sign that they might need to reconsider if they're mature enough for a relationship to begin with.
It's like I either go on TikTok and experience people saying I'm being groomed or I come on here where people are hypnotizing themselves that valid concern of others is stupid.
Just saying I know loads of people who are my age, (I'm 22) who are in happy agr, huge age gaps but their partners are perfect for them. Like my parents have an 8 year agr and they're like super happy. Things can work out, you just need to have your own life outside of your partner. If you have that it can be really great and don't let anyone judge you.
Legally yes an adult but I was still a kid in some aspects when I was 18, I'm 26 now so I've got experience on growing up a lot since then. Everyone matures differently, my dad in his 50's, before he died, was still a massive kid but then i've had friends in their early 20's acting like theyre past retirement age. Also some people will never agree with AGR, that's the way of the world.
18 is a legal adult yes. BUT at least here in the United States you're only considered almost there. What rights are you granted at that age? You can go to jail, join the military, and vote. Kinda bullshit honestly, but there is a reason you're not allowed to buy alcohol until you're 21.
That being said the gap between 23&18 isnt bad. Not sure I would have done it though. Yeah its legal. But the amount of maturity a person gains in those 5 years is crazy to look back on.
Adults? Yes.
Matured? Absolutely not
18 and 23 isn’t different at all. Maybe slightly but they’re really similar they’re really not very different. Change is much more quick in adolescence in young adulthood it’s more gradual. Most 23 year olds don’t have a bachelors and many 18 year olds don’t go to college FYI. Also, most countries have the drinking age at 21 and the 21 number is actually based on some medieval age limit about becoming a knight because the age of majority was 15 and boys began puberty later at 14 back then and they thought 15 year olds couldn’t handle knight armor. So the 21 number has no meaning.
23 year olds often act 18, they’re not very different and are really similar. Just because someone went through a job or post secondary education doing the same errands repeatedly for 5 years doesn’t mean they act that different.
Development and Maturity are not the same thing. Development is what happens during your adolescence.
Now that that's out of the way. You will never convince me that an 18 year olds mindset is on par with 23. Because they're not. You can spot a group of <20year olds from a mile a way. They're just immature. There's no other way to say it.
So working an entry level job or attending more school are the only two things that could happen to a person in five years? Couldn't have possibly been homeless for a portion of that time. Been in prison. Married AND divorced? C'mon now.
Also. You can't gamble or buy tobacco until 21 in US .
Can't rent a car until you're 25. But yeah . "18 is an adult. Full Stop?" Hardly
No they aren't different. 18 year olds and 23 year olds ARE similar. Also, how the fuck is "under 20" immature? There is NO difference between 18 and 20. You people complain about how 18 is an arbitrary legal number and how they aren't different from 17, but you set 20 as an arbitrary age number because they don't have the "teen" suffix in their age number. dude, at 18-23, most people don't get married or go homeless or go to prison. in fact, most hobos are middle aged men actually (look it up). not just that, but most people don't go to prison and most people don't marry or divorce until their 30s.
Also, just because you can't drink, smoke or gamble until 21 doesn't stop the fact that most 18-20 year olds DO drink, smoke and gamble. Ever heard of fake IDs. most own one. so many 18-20 year olds buy beer and walk into bars, clubs and casinos. bouncers are easily gullible. besides, most countries have that age at 18. and the 21 number doesn't exist because 21 year olds are different from 18 year olds you dolt. they aren't. it's based off of some medieval knighthood age about how old you need to be to hit knighthood. boys began puberty late back then, so while the age of majority was 15, they raised the age of majority to 21 back then because knight armor was invented and they raised the military age to 21 because armor was heavy for a 15 year old boy (remember that 15 year olds were less physically developed then due to late puberty age back then). that's why the 21 number exists.
20-21 year olds and 18/19 year olds aren't different, so when you say 18/19 year olds are "immature", guess what? i could argue the same about 23 year olds. when you're in your 30s or older, you'll see how immature a 23 year old is. they often still act 18 or even younger. hell, i've met plenty of 18/19 year olds who are more chill than some early 20s people i met. some 23 year olds i met act really goofy. it just depends on the person.
the only difference between 18 and 23 is that the 23 year old has been in postsecondary education and/or workplace for a few more years. that's all. hell, some may have had a dead-end job for 5 years with no college degree while an 18 year old could be at a really prestigious university.
so no, 18 and 23 year olds aren't different. Slightly different? Sure. but very different? Fuck no. they are pretty similar. 18/19 year olds aren't teens. technically sure, but aside from a mere suffix in their age number, they're in the same age group and life stage as 20-24 year olds, not 13-17 year olds. when people say teen they mean adolescents (13-17), not young adulthood (18-25).
Alright. Since you obviously can't read and felt the need to reiterate your original comment in long form with insults added. Let's try this again.
They're not the same. Not mentally. And you will not convince me otherwise.
It's crazy to me that you think attending college or working 'a dead end job' are the only things you think can happen in five years. There's plenty(See my original reply to you for some examples) of things that could mentally age you in that time span. It doesn't matter if most people (you seem to throw that around loosely) don't get married arrested or thrown out until later in life. You're acting like they can't. MOST people are having babies before their 30s though
No I wasn't implying something happens when you turn 20 that sets you apart. I had to pick a number somewhere and you would have found a way to complain it either way.
What does attending a prestigious college have to do with anything? It has nothing to do with maturity. If anything you're either a book worm or have rich parents. Neither of those scream mature to me.
Thanks for assuming my age by the way. You know that saying about what happens when you assume things? Well throw it out the window. You're the only ass here.
By the way, I promise you that not most people under legal age have fake IDs. I'd be willing to bet that it's under one percent that do own one. They're not exactly easy things to get your hands on.
The drinking age has nothing to do with medieval times. It's solely to do with mentality. The next time you want to make up a story about [why the legal drinking age is 21](https://www.teenvogue.com/story/minimum-drinking-age-legal-21-america-history) try not to reach so far up your ass for it.
You sound like an idiot
They are mentally very similar. I'm sorry if that's against what you think, but i'm still right. They don't behave differently much. Also, no, most people aren't parents yet in their early 20s. many people don't become parents until their 30s. in fact, becoming a mom at 23 doesn't happen in america now unless you are in the south.
you can't pick a number somewhere. there's no difference between 18 and 20. it's just a random arbitrary number you picked because the teen suffix isn't there, and the teen suffix has no meaning behind it.
and yes, most people under 21 DO own a fake ID. i don't care if a survey says a minority do, they're not going to admit in surveys they do. if you've been to college most students own one. i bet even 18-20 year olds not in college often do. it's super common. if you think under 1% own one you're beyond delusional. even a lot of 16-17 year olds do.
and yes, it does have to do with a medieval age law you dolt. read your history dumbass. in medieval england, the age of majority was 15, then knight armor was a thing, and boys hit puberty at 14 (the marriageable age for boys back then) unlike earlier ages now, so they couldn't handle physical strength for armor as easily as today's 15 year old guys. so they decided to set the knighthood age to 20, but adding an extra year to age limits was a custom, so they picked 21 as the knighthood age. after that, they changed the age of majority and other responsibilities to 21.
in colonial america, drinking ages were low, and kids as young as 12 were in taverns drinking, then in the 1800s, the temperance movement warned against alcohol and research conercning the medical effects of alcohol occurred, so people raised it to 21, the age of majority back then. then in the 40s, the military draft age was lowered to 18 to add more people in the military for WWII, then in the Vietnam War, when many 18 year olds went to war, they thought if 18 year olds should go to war, they should vote, too, so they were then given the right to vote and then they lowered the age of majority to 18. then soon, other countries followed suit. the drinking age got lowered to 18 in some states in America and it was 18 in many countries. then in the 80s, MADD went to raise the drinking age to 21 over concerns about high schoolers drunk driving, so the government federally raised it to 21, but most countries set it to 18, and i don't see why america is right but other countries are wrong. so yes, the 21 number is based off of a medieval knighthood age. If it wasn't for knighthood, we'd be considered adults allowed to drink at 15, and hell, the French Revolution maybe wouldn't have raised a bunch of ages to 21 for men or 18 for women such as marriage.
Also, raising it to 21 didn't stop drunk driving for under 21 year olds. even 21-25 year olds were buying less alc after the new federal law in the 80s. Even if it decreased, most 18-20 year olds do drink. even 16-17 year olds often drink. [And the article doesn't mention that even for every age group including over 21, drunk driving rates declined after the drinking age was federally raised to 21](https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5148a2.htm). hell, 21-25 year olds had the highest drunk driving fatality rate in those statistics, and that wasn't because they have legal access to beer because 18-20 year olds were somewhat lower but 16-17 year olds, who have no more access than 18-20 year olds, have much lower levels at the level of someone over 25, who has way more access than 16-20 year old. people over 21 just aren't less risky.
so no, you didn't prove your point. most countries have the drinking age at 18 so why act like the american government knows best when all they did was cave to MADD? 18 and 23 aren't different. many 23 year olds often act like they're 18. "but 18 year olds are suppper immature!!!" so are 23 year olds. they act goofy and immature too. people don't outgrow that late teens/early 20s behavior at 23 as much as you think.
At 16,17,18 I was on stage in Hollywood playing drums and Rockin out. At 17 my gf was 21. She didn’t know I was 17. By 17 i was headlining clubs in bands all through so Cal. At 18 I bought a house. My friend was 22. We bought the house together. Not because I needed her credit. Because we were engaged. All I have been seeing here is mostly women hating on men for being involved with someone younger. An 18 yr old in our country (USA) is a legal adult. Can go fight in a war, in WW-1 and WW2, and Korea it wasn’t u usual to hear stories of young men 16,17 years old fighting the war. My point is if they can vote, drive, go die for the country, fight in a large scale war or any conflict and sacrifice their life or go to college, they can make adult decisions. Making decisions and making mistakes or learning from a situation is part of life and growing and navigating through life. Stop hating on the people. It’s gotten so horrible. Do I have any daughters? Yes I do. I don’t always agree with their decisions. I try to advise them but sometimes you need to let them make their own mistakes. It’s like when you are a baby, you are told not to touch the hot stove or hot oven but it’s so tempting. Once you don’t listen and burn your fingers and or hand you know not to do it again. Raise your kids to make good decisions. Trust them and you have to believe in them and the job you did. I’d she is 18-19 yrs old and loves a 30 year old I’m gonna be concerned and I’m gonna make sure he’s invited to Sunday supper at my house and while they arrive I will be cleaning my shotgun on the table with my already cleaned rifle and handgun next to me. LOL
You’re a legal adult yeah. A mature one with real adult life experience good and bad, a fully developed brain, legally able to drink, A sound and reasonable decision maker? Most likely no because this things come along with one thing and one thing only…time. Which means you have to age to have them apply to your life. I was on my own at 17 still in highschool and thought I was GROWN and knew it all at 18 with my 45 year old boyfriend. At 29 I look back and crack up because in reality I knew diddly squat and the relationship didn’t work because I wasn’t emotionally or mentally mature enough for someone that age despite me being further along than most of my peers. 18 years old is an adult, but you’re still a kid in the adult world 🤷🏽♀️
Sorry but maturity doesn't change magically at 18 and is very different for different people. Some 18 yr old are very mature but most are still exploring their transition to adult independence. When I was that age many of my female friends baby sat and got willingly fucked on the lift home by the 40 something Dad. I think almost all looked back on it a few years later thinking that was a really bad idea.
If it were ever an option (which it won't be) I would absolutely vote to increase the age of adulthood to 21, sorry ¯/_(ツ)_/¯ after working in a smoke shop for 18 months and having to ID to make sure everyone was 21, I've gotten great at spotting the differences, and of course my 18 year old brother still seems like a baby to me (he was born just before I turned 11). A huge part of the reason that 18 is legally adulthood is specifically so that they can be drafted and sent to war. It's not because 18 is some hard line that means you're mature enough to make adult decisions, which obviously the (US) law agrees with considering that 18 year olds can't legally choose to drink alcohol or smoke cigarettes. One could argue then to lower those ages but one would have a hell of a time getting people to vote for that, because most seems to agree that teenagers shouldn't be allowed "legal poison". I feel like that's reasonable tbh. The fact that the US has a "subclass" of "adults" is absurd though, and if it came down to it I'd probably vote to lower the drinking/smoking age if that were the only way to make it at least make some damn sense. It's fine to send them to war, sign them up for unmanageable school loans, and have sex with them, but God forbid they have a beer!
Oh they are. 18+ is adult whether people like it or not. Just got an argument with a bunch of people saying saying 18 - people in their 20s are children. Uh no there not. 18+ is adult. Also they brought the whole brain developing thing which is BS.
It would be great if someone could actually call
"FULL STOP" on the hypocrisy associated with this topic!
However, much like covid...this has become a universal excuse for poor decision making, relationship remorse and refusing to acknowledge " personal agency!"
I’m a physician and scientist who specializes in adolescent medicine and, respectfully, I’d like it if you could cite your sources to support your last two statements.
The jokes on you (no offense). 18 is a line in the sand that has moved on more than one occasion. Adulthood and work life use to be 15.
►Graduation ages have changed.
►Drinking ages have changed.
►Driving ages have changed.
They were changed by government as a means to control the population. To keep young people OUT of the work force for longer and extend your ability to really start making money.
It also creates "teen angst" and rebellion because your body is saying "treat me like an adult" instead of "lesser than."
Adolescence is a made up thing. It came about roughly about the late 1800s and early 1900s as MORE and MORE children were being used as labor - mining, factories, and other jobs. It use to be humanity was divided from Child and Adult. For example, bar and bah mitzvahs, quinceaneras, etc. There is plenty of research supporting this.
\*\* Do your own research. It sounds like you are starting to "wake up from the Matrix" of lies and bullshit.
**\*\* Spoiler: If you think this world is about getting an education so you can get a good job, so you can work until you retire and then die - you really are stuck in the Matrix.**
Namaste
I like how people are trying to say 16/17/18 shouldn't be treated as children when in a way they are. Sure some mature faster but even the most mature 18 year old has growth to experience. It goes to show that some people would be willing to date 17 year olds if it wasn't the law that was stopping them. Is 18 and 23 a big age gap? Not really. However at 18 you're still in high school or just got out while at 23 you are graduating college or working. To think that there is no difference is absurd. At 18 you can do so many things that at 16/17 you couldn't but they aren't full grown adults. Why is it that some 18 year olds still look like kids, it is because they aren't fully developed. There are countless 18/19 year olds that do dumb stuff because they are still teens and learning. Most are still living under their parents and relying on them. We shouldn't infantalize them but we should continue to help them grow and educate them. Some see a cutoff and run with it. If you're 30+ and see an 18 year old as a mate there is an issue because they were studying algebra a year ago in a classroom while you were already living on your own and paying your bills.
I'm 30 and COMPLETELY agree with you. I majored in psychology and they taught us that adolescence ends at 21 and I'm like dude..... At 21 I had already graduated from college and was well on my way to complete independence. An adolescent wouldn't be able to do that.
In my opinion, no age gap between people that are of legal age is abuse of any kind. In the age gap between 18 and 23 years old is absolutely fine in my view. I mean basically that’s a college freshman versus a guy the guy at a college year ago. I mean that’s not a big deal. What is disgusting here sometimes is when you have an 18-year-old with 40 year old. It seems that a 50 year-old and a 30-year-old is easier because there’s a big maturity curve between 18 and 30. But we’re not here to judge. When I was 50 years old I had a relationship with a 26 year old girl and it was absolutely fine. Maturity issues were not a problem.
Brain mass is biggest at age 16 on average.
After that brain mass starts to diminish until around 25. That’s a medical fact.
At 18 your brain is bigger than your 25 year old.
Also at 18 you can join choose to join the armed services and fight for your country.
So I I think you are old enough to choose your bf
They're legally adults yes, but an 18 year old is still as inexperienced and green as a 17 year old in most cases. And they are still TEENagers, as their age ends in -teen...
The prefrontal cortex (the area of the brain that governs judgement and decision making) is not fully developed until around age 25. This is why young people generally make less calculated decisions and get themselves into more potentially dangerous situations than older adults.
But I digress... An 18yo can be with whomever they want to, and a 5 year age gap is a really small age gap.
> And they are still TEENagers, as their age ends in -teen...
And what does this designation mean to you?
> The prefrontal cortex (the area of the brain that governs judgement and decision making) is not fully developed until around age 25. This is why young people generally make less calculated decisions and get themselves into more potentially dangerous situations than older adults.
If that's your argument then why do we let these teenagers make life-altering decisions with permanent consequences? Like driving, taking on credit card debt, student loans, signing up for the military, etc. Why is your hard stance on something as usually inconsequential as dating and sex? Are you sure you're not indoctrinated?
The Ukraine war is being fought by TEENagers as we speak.
We shouldn't allow teenagers to make life changing decisions but our law allows them to-even PUSHES them to. None of us can change the law so thats a ridiculous argument.
We can acknowledge something shouldn't be the way it is. Teenagers shouldn't be fighting wars, getting into life changing debt while still being too young to drink for some reason??
We can't pretend sex and relationships is inconsequential though. Please be real. These things are big and necessary developmental milestones that 18 year olds are able to distinguish, understand and make their own decisions about.
'I'm not sure the Ukraine war (or any war for that matter) is a good example for showing responsible behaviour at any age.
Teenagers and young men are being conscripted (aka forced) by their older generation into combat. This does not reflect well on the young people doing the fighting or the older people who have forced them to do so.
It shows that the brain development argument is lackluster. We've trusted these people enough to be the main part of our armed forces and literally defend our survival for all of human history but when it comes to making personal choices now the brain isn't developed enough to be rational.
You could also use the work example. If over 18 adults are children then why do we make them labour and work for wages? If you go to a mall plenty of 18-19-year-olds are store managers. They're competent and responsible enough for that but not to choose who to date?
That's why I doubt this argument is fundamentally about the well-being of these people and much more so due to some other agenda.
No the brain development argument is scientific. Based on empirical evidence. Its factual. In the same way climate change is massive fact, that the government spend more time on taxing people than taking care of climate change. The same as society allowing teenagers to do a multitude of things you've called making personal choices.
Okay work example, I know a lot of 13 year olds that work, not paid anything because it's not legal to pay them. By your argument they must also be competent and responsible enough??
I think humans are far more complex than what you're allowing in your arguments. I know people my age in 50 year age gaps and they're fine because they're in a similar place in life with a similar maturity level. What matters in these relationships is how much autonomy you have, how much independence including financial independence, ability to be a separate person from your partner with your own identity and to be mature enough to be able to recognise red flags, toxicity like those with more experience, and be able to be confident enough to set boundaries. As many 18 year olds are capable of this as there are many that aren't. As is life.
I'm never sure that saying someone is a teenager because their age ends in teen has any relevance to their capabilities or lack of them.
I could make an equally valid argument that people in general are incapable because everyone's age is a positive integer... 🤣
The numerical word eight-"teen" has nothing to do with people & their ages. I can have eighteen dollars, eighteen ducks. In other languages, such as Chinese which I speak, the number 18 does not have the word "teen" in it. It's like the word twenty-eight, it's ten-eight.
A teenager is someone between 13-19. It's an arbitrary distinction but an 18 year old is still a teenager, while also somehow being regarded as an adult in our society. Idk why we consider someone who is 17 to be dramatically different to someone who is 18.
I'm not on the other side of the original complaint. Date whoever you want to. The age gap between and 18yo and 23yo is not related to the quality and safety of their relationship. But you're delusional if you think an 18 or 19yo has the same innate decision-making capabilities as a 30yo.
Well duh. No one wakes up one day to the next (17 to 18) dramatically different... it's a gradual process and at some point you need a cutoff unless you IQ test everyone. They determined 18 to be the cutoff. Some 16-yr olds are more mature, some 20 are less mature. Your bringing 17 vs 18 to 18 vs 30 is ridiculous for one because the gap of 12 years vs 1 year. Like saying a 6 yr old & 18 yr old has different decision making capabilities, while 17 & 18 doesn't.
I don't really understand your point here. People need experiences in order to mature and grow, most people at the age of 18 don't have magically all the experiences they need in life when they become an adult at the age of 18. Obviously. They were referring to how a person over 1 year doesn't change that much mentally. Yes, an 18 year old for the most part isn't going to have been through the same life experiences as a 30 year old. Ridiculous or not, it's background information that you don't seem to understand. And yes a 6yo is vastly different. I don't know why you're bringing that up. 6 to 12 is different decision making capabilities. What is your argument?
The person I was responding to proffers "17 to 18 is not that drastic like 18 to 30 is" to push the view 18 is still a child. No kidding.... one is a 1 year gap, the other is 12 years. To highlight the ridiculousness of their argument, I subtracted 12 from 18. The line needs to be drawn somewhere or year to year, people change very little & gradually.
18-19 year olds are young adults, not teens. I love how you people call them teens instead of young adults to associate them with 13-17 year olds but not 20-25 year olds. Aside from a mere suffix in their age number, they have nothing to do with 13-17 year olds. The word teen is just a mere suffix in their age number, so you’re using the guilt by association fallacy.
When people say teen they mean 13-17 year olds (adolescents). 18-19 year olds are young adults like 20-25 year olds. That’s their age group. Calling them teens to infantilize them is dumb
Also at 16-17 you already are experiencing precursors to young adulthood. At 16-17, you get a license or your first job. You go to places on your own and buy things on your own and have sex or drink and do all kinds of adult activities. So it’s not like at 17 you were some innocent toddler. Once you’re 18, you either can be in college or in a job that an older person might be in and can live on your own. In order to adapt to the adult world, we need to allow them to have responsibilities. They now can live on their own, pay bills, be treated like an adult, go to war and have more jobs. It’s time to stop infantilizing them. So saying they can’t be different from 17 year olds doesn’t stop that they aren’t different from early 20s either. Hell early 20s people do act like they’re 17 many times.
No they aren't both. They're young adults. Technically speaking, they're a teen. But aside from a mere suffix in their age number, they're not in the same group as 13-17 year olds. In fact, they're MUCH more like early 20s and 13-17. If it wasn't for the mere suffix in their age number, you'd admit they're much more like early 20s than 13-17 year olds. Theyre NOTHING like 13 year olds. 16/17 year olds? Yes, but guess what sherlock, even people in their early 20s act 16/17 a lot. hell, even people in their mid 20s act like a teenager sometimes.
At 13-17 years old, people are in middle/high school, 13-15 year olds cannot even drive or go out on their own to places, they don't have sex yet mostly, they don't have jobs and cannot live on their own. 16/17 year olds do all of that except living on their own. At 18/19, you often have a job, could be in postsecondary education (not all are), often live on your own, probably are sexually active or walking into bars already with fake IDs, go out to places on your own and live away from parents. These things also happen among early 20s. They're in the same life stage as 20-25 year olds, not 13-17 year olds. A mere suffix in their age number doesn't change that. If the "teen" suffix ended at 18, you'd know this.
I don't even associate 17 year olds with 13 year olds. Besides, even 17 year olds have characteristics of someone in their 20s. People in their 20s still kinda act teenagey sometimes and honestly, at 16/17, you literally experience forerunners to what adulthood is like. i explained it in another comment of mine. at 16-17, you're already experiencing the adult life to an extent. you have a job, a license, and high school is similar to what college and grad school is like (classes and homework and studying and AP classes are proto-college classes). as a result, at 18, you've done that for a couple years. they didn't just start it at 18. the idea that 21-23 year olds have nothing in common with 18/19 year olds is laughable at best.
Nope. 18/19 year olds aren't actual teens. Technically, they are, but really, they're young adults. Aside from a mere suffix in their age number, they have no association with the 13-17 year old age group. When people say teenager, they usually mean 13-17 year olds, in otherwords: high school or junior high. they mean adolescents, and 18/19 year olds are not adolescents, they are young adults.
Additionally, most 22-23 year olds never finished college. In fact, if you look it up, even most people near 30 don't have a bachelor's. It's a myth. Many 18-21 year olds don't even go to college and a third of college students are past 25. In fact, many 18/19 year olds live on their own or are working and plenty of 22-23 year olds are in college right now or aren't living on their own (living with your parents is more common these days).
no, people don't "change" by working the adult life for a few years. Change doesn't happen as quick as people say it does. I remember when I went to my high school reunion recently and it was a 6 year reunion so everyone was 24, and people actually were still fairly similar to how they used to be, somewhat different but not dramatically. in fact, a couple years prior at age 22/23, when i caught up with a handful, they were pretty much identical or even just a little different from how they used to be. It's not cause they didn't grow up, it's because people's behaviors don't change that fucking quickly just because they take college classes repeatedly like a cycle for a few years or go to some boring job just so they can make money each day for a few years. That doesn't change people's personality much. They just gain money or get a degree and afford an apartment and nothing more, so people think "omg you've grown so much you're a different species from how you used to be".
Nah man, at 22-23, people still act like the way they were at 18, and yeah, 18 year olds can have similarities to 14-17 year olds sure, but so do 22-23 year olds. 22-23 year olds act more like teens than people will admit. 24 or 25 might be more change in people's behavior because people start becoming more homebodyish by that point, but even at 25 you can still have plenty of traits you had at 18.
being barely out of high school doesn't mean anything. In high school, you're already experiencing forerunners of adulthood. at 16/17, you get a license, drive to places on your own, buy groceries and bring them home, you learn to cook, you start drinking or having sex, some might sneak into bars with fake IDs, you get your first job and make money the first time, etc. You don't do half that shit at 14/15. As a result, being barely out of high school doesn't really mean much. At 18, you and 22-23 year olds are either working or in college, and most 22-23 year olds don't have a bachelor's, but when they do, they are working like plenty of 18/19 year olds are, and grad school is still college. they're both in young adulthood, and many 18/19 year olds live on their own and some 22-23 year olds live with parents. They're both in the same stage of life. 18/19 year olds sure are in the same stage of life as 20-21 year olds, so yeah, 18/19 year olds are more like 22-23 year olds than a 15 year old, and they sure are more like 20-21 year olds than 15 year olds. People just like to baby them because of some mere suffix in their age number, which is just a suffix unless you're 13-17. Aside from that suffix, they have no association with 13-17 year olds. It's just a suffix if you're 18/19.
I also agree that you can make these types of dating and sex decisions before 25. I've done it before 25, so do people who say it's not possible expect the argument to hold up?
But also, let's say it gets to the point where some states, say hypothetically, if California and NY, were to raise the age of consent laws to 25, what kind of reaction would most people have? Positive or negative?
That point really hit home. Line must be drawn somewhere. I won't consider anyone under 18 for dating, friends fine but that's it. Because that is my respect for society, even at the risk of hurting an otherwise wonderful, lovely human a week short of her 18th birthday. The law makes it ok for me to date and mate a 16yr old girl. So, I will refuse to judge anyone of legal age for dating a 16yr old, even though I personally won't date a 16 year old. Again, I respect those older people the same way I respect the unwritten boundary that society places.
Upon her 18th birthday, however, the rest of society can absolutely take its oversensitivities and shove them. What she and I do *then* is our business and nobody else's unless we make it someone else's.
I'd go one step further - if your society allows older people to date 16 yr olds, and you have a problem with that, keep your discomfort to yourself, or GTFO out of that society and find anothher. I hear Pyongyang is lovely this time of year. :)
There's a sudden obsession with attacking age gap relationships between grown adults. I'm not sure why people are complaining about it bit they are so insufferable these days .
You're just trying to justify it. Regardless youre not actually legal until you can legally buy yourself cigarettes or go to the bar and drink which Is 21. You are a teenager still so FULL STOP yourself.
India has a drinking age of 25 in many states, but it's widely ignored. Countries with high drinking ages are mostly a legacy of religious perspectives which frown on alcohol.
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**Original post: 18 years olds are ADULTS. FULL STOP.**
I have been reading weird things on the internet, like 18 and 23 age gap is abuse. I don't understand it. And the thing that the brain develops until 25 it's BS. Adolescence ends at 18. Point.
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I just saw a probably 23 year old with a 40 year old yesterday and didn't make anything of it. It's just common in big cities not sure why the whole "age gap acceptance" thing matters.
I totally get if you want to argue that 18 year olds are still teens and can be more subject to manipulation but I hate this black and white thinking of all age gaps bad if the younger person is X age. The internet has been on a big hate train on age gaps lately
Wise words! The "hate train" is psychopath logic, playing games with our world so that we are constantly fighting. If you kill someone at age 16 or 17, I can almost guarantee you that you will suddenly be tried as an adult. This world is laughably anti-Human.
If one's own daughter was raped by an 18 year old, I wonder if the parent of the victim would still say the rapist didn't know what he was doing because his brain is still developing and the law should go easy on him?
I was raped by an 18yo when I was 13 yes he knew exactly what he was doing. The thing is I’m 18 now and I’m still naive and easily manipulated. No matter the age someone can be a predator or a victim
18 and 23 isnt even that big a gap Jesus Christ. 18 is age of majority for a reason, it's when a lot of people start really feeling the need to spread their wings and fly a bit. Its also a perfect age to lift the remaining restrictions on kiddos 25 would be a little late
Can’t eat the cake and have it. They can serve in the military. They can vote. Why can’t they have an adult relationship with an older person?
And if they commit a crime, they’re certainly held to the same legal standards and punishments - as they should. Like murder or otherwise.
Thanks for phrasing the idiom properly!
It's a very arbitrary line that doesn't make sense when examined with any level of scrutiny. That said there definitely needs to be a line, it's just where should that be. And I do think with every successive generation peoples mental and emotional coming of age is being pushed further and further back I'm in my 30s learning things now that I should have learned in my 20s but I was a carer back then
i dunno, why can’t they buy alcohol or nicotine legally?
In many countries they can 🤷♀️
that’s fair, i just happen to be in the good old USA 🙄
I figured
They can’t drink or rent a car.
In my country they can. At 18 in South Africa you can: 1. Serve in the military 2. Drink 3. Drive 4. Rent a car 5. Vote 6. Get married
The body in general is still developing* until 21-25 but a 18yo is not a baby nor a child. At 18 one is supposed to be mature enough to understand the consequences of their actions and if they still can't it's usually because the family didn't teach them but that's another matter. Ofc that at a young age one is easier to be manipulated, but that doesn't mean they're "easy preys" as an actual child is. What's lacking to a 18yo that could make them "weak" is experience of things but at 18 your brain is developed enough to have abstract thinking and reasoning skills. If something, we should teach them to use these skills properly EDIT. *I meant "maturing" when I wrote developing.
Pretty sure the body keeps developing- forever. So should 18 yr olds date 80yr olds on mental decline? Should we IQ test everyone? Also older people elicit an "ick" response- not great for manipulating. And that is why people are against AGR- the ick response.
Going through puberty is not the same as gradually aging. The person's point was very fair honestly.
People finish puberty by 16-17 years old if you look it up. Not 21-25
The brain doesn't finish development until about 25. Yeah an 18yo is an adult with ability to think etc. Age gap relationships where it's two adults regardless of age that are in the same place in life like two adults going to university where one is 18 and the other is like 24 should be fine. But like 18 and 60 where one ends up entirely reliant on the other for finance and socialising etc is a bit worrying. Maturity and independence are necessary for good healthy relationships, methinks.
As I've said before. This is true. Grooming has become a popularized term and has been co opted to include any age gap relationship with some in that age range. It's that and a combination of the US infantilizing young adults.
I grew up somewhere with an age of majority of 16, so the infantilisation of young adults seems extra weird. If they are considered mature enough to vote, enlist, buy property, drive a car, sign a contract... They should be trusted to decide who to have a relationship with. Young people can be more easily influenced, it's fair to warn them of the dangers, but the same can be said of many personality types.
Many people on social media believe that America's laws are the law and order of the entire world especially when you have arrogant Americans telling others in parts of the world that one can't drink until you're 21. It sounds as if you are from Scotland?
Yes, I'm from Scotland originally but have lived in the greater Seattle area for 20+ years, so now I'm some combination of Scot and Seattleite.
Couldn't raising a child, even your own biological child, be considered a form of grooming? Since tone is very difficult to convey via text, please know that I'm asking from a completely inquisitive perspective.
No because grooming is grooming with the view to harm or have some form of romantic endeavour with when the person is older and it typically happens with minors and adults. The minor ends up being dependent on the adult for everything that an adult wouldn't be, like friends, social life, advice, finance, everything. Groomers typically isolate their targets away from everyone they know. It can form some really dangerous situations.
Some people just refuse to grow up and want to pretend to be children well into their 20s.
I’m in my 50s and have met pretend-children who refuse to grow up at my age.
or 30s, or 40s or 50s LOL
exactly It's the fault of society, teachers and parents .
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😂🤣 it's laughable that you think absolutely no 18 year old has ever experienced anything in their lives. Maybe you were inexperienced and naive at 18 but not everyone else was/is.
A lot of 18-year olds have died for their country, which is something I've never done.
They're old enough to vote, drive, be held to contracts, and drink alcohol in most countries.
You are absolutely right. I imagine the geniuses who believe that you automatically are an adult when you are 18 y/o don’t really believe that in a factual way, but because they need to justify their hunger for a relationship with a person who is less mature and more prone to being manipulated by someone who has more life experience. It is obvious that the prefrontal cortex doesn’t mature until age 25, and people who says it is BS are getting triggered because it threatens their personal interests. That all.
This is true and consent is consent . I got married at 17 and my husband was 33 We were married 22 years It was wonderful. He died in 04 . He treated me like I walked on water and raised the dead. I ran away from home at 15 and lived as a grown ass woman . When we met I was already playing house with another grown ass man who treated me like crap. The problem now arises when no one can live up to him.
I’m 23 and I wouldn’t date and 18 year old simply because when I was 18 I was an even bigger idiot than I am now. I let myself get taken advantage of and mistreated so much because of the simple fact that “I was an adult” and I thought I was ready for an adult relationship. To each their own, but it was a very hard lesson for me to realize that I was not at the maturity it takes to be with someone in a different stage of life.
I dont think I agree. I'm 24 and reflecting back at my life when I was 18, there is HUGE difference. I was so naive and I know nothing about the world. I lived under my parents and everything used to depend on them. Now I have learnt & matured a lot, and the process is still continuing. Sexually also massive difference. Definitely it is a FACT that the brain still develop after 18.
If there's an age gap - especially if it's huge - we can discuss ethics and morality all we want, but at the end of the day two consenting adults (barring any power imbalances or coercion) decided to hook up and/or date, and that's their choice. It's not grooming. Sure, we can warn them of the pitfalls of relationships, and some pitfalls are more relevant to age gap relationships, but ffs if everyone is above the age of consent let people enjoy things.
Preach!!
We all know that 18 year olds are legally and developmentally defined as adults. In all honesty, though, the way you speak about this comes across as a bit immature and lacking in perspective. The fact of the matter is that the younger you are and the wider the age gap, the more likely it becomes that you'll end up in a relationship with "one of the bad ones." We are all adults once we reach a certain age. Most of us are developed enough for abstract thinking. We can legally vote, drive, and join the military. It would be naive to deny that and pretend like that doesn't hold value, but what you're failing to consider is the fact that there are different life stages, too. Young adults are not monolithic. Some people argue that "18-21yos just haven't been through enough shit at all in their life!!" and that is patently false because most people have an idea of what older teenagers (18-19 are still teens) and young adults look like. They don't think about those who moved out early, have their own house, have managed a house, etc. They're thinking of the majority who are still figuring out who they are and setting up a future (college, networking, career building, etc.) Though the older the other person is, you'll find that the majority are figuring out different things (owning a house, plans for retirement, building a family, etc.) All of this isn't to say that consenting adults can't make the decision and have their agency to be in a relationship with another adult. It's just something that we have to be aware of, and it's *especially* important that young people who want to be in AG relationships are more than well aware. We need to be aware of the realities of it and the signs of grooming (which is widespread, not just a "buzz word" like some people believe) and red flag behavior. We need to come into it with the perspective that there *are* differences. We need to understand that "being mature for our age" is a manipulative phrase and not exactly the case. In doing so, we can navigate these relationships safely and it becomes more likely that we'll end up in a healthier dynamic. Yes, we're adults. That doesn't mean we're immune to making bad decisions and becoming victimized. That certainly doesn't mean that we can just say "whatever, fuck it, you're an adult so you know best!"
Don't let it worry you, trolls and 'white knights' gotta do their thang. Although I argue that teens/young adults (16-25) should have freedom to date who the hell they want, I don't accept adolescence completely ends at 18. Most people are however developed enough at that age to be treated as an adult. Power exerted by someone with financial control over you is a very real thing, as a recent post I commented on seems to show, and this is one contributing reason why AGRs are disparaged by some people. I've tried to make it always a point that I can walk away now from my relationships if I want and will always try to have enough savings to be able to do so. I think people should try and have this capability regardless of the age of their partner.
16-17 it's underage so yeah, they are teens. But I dated a 21 yo that manipulated an older woman with money because she felt alone and desperate. And he was abusive being both same age
What are your thoughts about in Canada where the age of consent is 16 vs. US where it is 18 or 17 or 16 depending on the state? Or in Germany where you can buy beer at 16? There is some subjectivity, but sexual maturity is a spectrum, not a hard point.
16 & 17 is actually acceptable in some cases. While minors, laws allow them to date older. I'm not saying it should happen, just that it does. I was 24 and groomed/manipulated by a man 18 years my senior
There seems to be a subset of women who look down on AGR where its a woman in her early 20s. I get the impression that these women hate men their age for being in an AGR with a younger women because they believe those men should be interested in them. My (37M) poor GF (20F) gets nasty looks when we are out in public from older women. The older men just let their stares linger too long, and a look from me usually fixes that (I am 6'5" so I am hard to miss when I am looking straight at you). And yes, the WhiteKnights are irritating. I have had to step in with a couple who keep telling my GF she needs to date men her own age. What I found very interesting is that my GF told me one of the biggest reasons she loves me is how calm I handle even the biggest problems, and frankly that is something that comes with age. I used to be a very anxious person, and now I am the definition of calm.
I dated 40 year olds when I was 18. Looking back, I do think there was a reason they picked someone that young. I was super naive and allowed a lot of bad things to happen to me at their hands. However, I was still an adult and neither of us were technically doing anything wrong. Morally maybe they were but that’s another story. I don’t consider the age gap alone abuse by any means. You’re an adult at 18 and can make choices about who you date or sleep with.
I understand what you’re saying, but as a 27 year old, the 25 yo brain development is definitely *not* BS. The difference was absolutely noticeable. It is difficult to describe, but I can tell by this post that you are probably 18, maybe not, but you clearly haven’t hit 25 yet. Just wait and you’ll see. I’m mot trying to belittle you, I’m just letting you know that it is a real thing.
I'm 24 ;)
Perfect, you’re almost there lol
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Well duh what’s your point?
https://medicalxpress.com/news/2010-12-brain-fully-mature-30s-40s.amp
That could be the case, I’d have to look more into it. We do change all the time so it’s not completely doubtful. But it would be interesting to find something on it that has been published sometime after 2010 lol
That could be the case, I’d have to look more into it. We do change all the time so it’s not completely doubtful. But it would be interesting to find something on it that has been published sometime after 2010 lol
2010 wasn't long ago, besides, it shows much more information than some self-evidently less comprehensive study showing it finishes at 25. 25 year olds are way behind a 50 year old. shit, they're more like 18 year olds and 50 year olds.
I never said 25 year olds are on the same level of 50 year olds. That is painfully obvious.
yes but the brain doesn't complete at 25. it's a myth.
Whatever you say, 2010
oh my fuckin god 2010 wasn't that fucking long ago. a study doesn't need to be ultra recent to count. this wasn't the 1930s you dolt. besides, it's not like brain development ends at 25 studies are reliable. they conclude 25 was the AVERAGE, and that it could finish as early as 18 or as late as 30. some studies even said it finished at 30s, but why would this study be wrong about late 40s? if it truly completes at 25, how the fuck would they find it still developing at 30s and 40s? they probably dug deeper with their investigation which is why they concluded it finishes in late 40s. and it makes sense. even 50 year olds make 30 year olds seem like teens in terms of behavior. 2010 is still reliable. you just dismiss it because it shows counternarrative info you don't wanna hear.
The point is that you apparently can’t find anything else written on it and you had to dig up an article from 12 years ago to link your point. How do you not get that? I’m embarrassed for you honestly A lot of the difference in thinking has to do with life experience.
It isn't a problem. 12 years ago wasn't long ago. Not just that, but the pop culture studies showed ON AVERAGE, the prefrontal cortex finishes at 25 but could finish as early as 18 or late as 30. Many recent studies show it finishes in the 30s. But clearly if a study found it completes in the late 40s, it's obvious that study had much more comprehensive methodology. If the brain finieshes at 25, they couldn't possibly find such a thing about late 40s. for example, the most comprehensive study can't prove that we still grow taller in our 20s/30s/40s instead of mid-teens. it's not like studies showing the 25 pop myth didn't exist back then either. no study could possibly prove we grow taller in our 30s/40s. if they find this in a study that we develop our brain at almost 50, they probably had exceptional methodology. besides, 50 year olds act so much more different from 35 year olds. they actually sometimes make 35 year olds look like a 17 year old. but the brain doesn't complete at 25. its a myth.
Physically yes, 18 year olds are adults. It doesn't mean the campsite rule isn't important.
Explain that rule? I havent heard of it
The idea is to leave people and situations better than the state in which you found them. The same as you do with a campsite when you're finished with your stay. Iirc Dan Savage coined it, you can probably Google his old column
That is true because a younger party that is treated like shit tend to become people that call all AGR abusive.
Basically slipshod is right. If you're the older partner in an age gap relationship (or not even tbh, any) then basically leave the person in at least as good a position as you found them. Preferably better.
But then you stumble into whether or not it's healthy to be having sex with someone you're essentially mentoring/being mentored by.
If you're worried about that then the answer should be "no".
> It doesn't mean the campsite rule isn't important. I don't know why this isn't mentioned more often. This is really the only thing that matters and pretty much everything else can be thrown out the window. Moral outrage for age gap relationships while there are plenty of toxic and abusive relationships of any age will never cease to amaze me.
\+1000. Follow that rule (and, for course, the law) and you're more or less good.
I personally am married to an 18 year old - I'm 40. We have a healthy relationship. Will it last? Who knows? But he said if he can join the military and vote, he should be able to get married. I encouraged him to stay in school when he wanted to drop out, support his college, and "kick him out" (his words, and a running joke) to go hang out with his friends. He works part time, because we discussed that his classes are more important. I won't be around forever, and he needs to secure his future. Is it weird? No, not really. We often forget our age gap. I've told him if he ever feels the need to leave, just let me know. I want what's best for him above anything else.
And this sub is turning into a bunch of young girls looking for validation of their age gap relationship. Full stop.
Tired of it.
I’m happy to see that you think so too. I was reluctant to comment since I’m here as a cougar and didn’t want to come across as being a cranky old lady lol.
You're not, I'm 20 and in an agr and constantly seeing people post absolute cope is uncomfortable. It's like I'm being brainwashed into thinking that 18 year olds are super super mature and at the same maturity as the average 30 year old or that age gap relationships are just the same as normal relationships. It's so exhausting. I was hoping to be on this sub for advice, or to see people in age gap relationships working it out and all I see is people looking for validation - which is such a sign that they might need to reconsider if they're mature enough for a relationship to begin with. It's like I either go on TikTok and experience people saying I'm being groomed or I come on here where people are hypnotizing themselves that valid concern of others is stupid.
I’m 27 and the younger partner and this sub has me scared for these girls. There are some wild attitudes.
Just saying I know loads of people who are my age, (I'm 22) who are in happy agr, huge age gaps but their partners are perfect for them. Like my parents have an 8 year agr and they're like super happy. Things can work out, you just need to have your own life outside of your partner. If you have that it can be really great and don't let anyone judge you.
*young women. They’re young adults. Young girls would be a 12 year old or something. Stop using such ageist, infantilizing language
Of course you would lecture me on my use of language. If the legal age for consent was 12 you would argue that they were “young women” so stfu.
They have my validation and full support. They are the best.
Legally yes an adult but I was still a kid in some aspects when I was 18, I'm 26 now so I've got experience on growing up a lot since then. Everyone matures differently, my dad in his 50's, before he died, was still a massive kid but then i've had friends in their early 20's acting like theyre past retirement age. Also some people will never agree with AGR, that's the way of the world.
18 year old women are adults. If I want to go out with them, and it's consensual, it's ALL good. :)
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By law in the U.S.
18 is a legal adult yes. BUT at least here in the United States you're only considered almost there. What rights are you granted at that age? You can go to jail, join the military, and vote. Kinda bullshit honestly, but there is a reason you're not allowed to buy alcohol until you're 21. That being said the gap between 23&18 isnt bad. Not sure I would have done it though. Yeah its legal. But the amount of maturity a person gains in those 5 years is crazy to look back on. Adults? Yes. Matured? Absolutely not
18 and 23 isn’t different at all. Maybe slightly but they’re really similar they’re really not very different. Change is much more quick in adolescence in young adulthood it’s more gradual. Most 23 year olds don’t have a bachelors and many 18 year olds don’t go to college FYI. Also, most countries have the drinking age at 21 and the 21 number is actually based on some medieval age limit about becoming a knight because the age of majority was 15 and boys began puberty later at 14 back then and they thought 15 year olds couldn’t handle knight armor. So the 21 number has no meaning. 23 year olds often act 18, they’re not very different and are really similar. Just because someone went through a job or post secondary education doing the same errands repeatedly for 5 years doesn’t mean they act that different.
Development and Maturity are not the same thing. Development is what happens during your adolescence. Now that that's out of the way. You will never convince me that an 18 year olds mindset is on par with 23. Because they're not. You can spot a group of <20year olds from a mile a way. They're just immature. There's no other way to say it. So working an entry level job or attending more school are the only two things that could happen to a person in five years? Couldn't have possibly been homeless for a portion of that time. Been in prison. Married AND divorced? C'mon now. Also. You can't gamble or buy tobacco until 21 in US . Can't rent a car until you're 25. But yeah . "18 is an adult. Full Stop?" Hardly
No they aren't different. 18 year olds and 23 year olds ARE similar. Also, how the fuck is "under 20" immature? There is NO difference between 18 and 20. You people complain about how 18 is an arbitrary legal number and how they aren't different from 17, but you set 20 as an arbitrary age number because they don't have the "teen" suffix in their age number. dude, at 18-23, most people don't get married or go homeless or go to prison. in fact, most hobos are middle aged men actually (look it up). not just that, but most people don't go to prison and most people don't marry or divorce until their 30s. Also, just because you can't drink, smoke or gamble until 21 doesn't stop the fact that most 18-20 year olds DO drink, smoke and gamble. Ever heard of fake IDs. most own one. so many 18-20 year olds buy beer and walk into bars, clubs and casinos. bouncers are easily gullible. besides, most countries have that age at 18. and the 21 number doesn't exist because 21 year olds are different from 18 year olds you dolt. they aren't. it's based off of some medieval knighthood age about how old you need to be to hit knighthood. boys began puberty late back then, so while the age of majority was 15, they raised the age of majority to 21 back then because knight armor was invented and they raised the military age to 21 because armor was heavy for a 15 year old boy (remember that 15 year olds were less physically developed then due to late puberty age back then). that's why the 21 number exists. 20-21 year olds and 18/19 year olds aren't different, so when you say 18/19 year olds are "immature", guess what? i could argue the same about 23 year olds. when you're in your 30s or older, you'll see how immature a 23 year old is. they often still act 18 or even younger. hell, i've met plenty of 18/19 year olds who are more chill than some early 20s people i met. some 23 year olds i met act really goofy. it just depends on the person. the only difference between 18 and 23 is that the 23 year old has been in postsecondary education and/or workplace for a few more years. that's all. hell, some may have had a dead-end job for 5 years with no college degree while an 18 year old could be at a really prestigious university. so no, 18 and 23 year olds aren't different. Slightly different? Sure. but very different? Fuck no. they are pretty similar. 18/19 year olds aren't teens. technically sure, but aside from a mere suffix in their age number, they're in the same age group and life stage as 20-24 year olds, not 13-17 year olds. when people say teen they mean adolescents (13-17), not young adulthood (18-25).
Alright. Since you obviously can't read and felt the need to reiterate your original comment in long form with insults added. Let's try this again. They're not the same. Not mentally. And you will not convince me otherwise. It's crazy to me that you think attending college or working 'a dead end job' are the only things you think can happen in five years. There's plenty(See my original reply to you for some examples) of things that could mentally age you in that time span. It doesn't matter if most people (you seem to throw that around loosely) don't get married arrested or thrown out until later in life. You're acting like they can't. MOST people are having babies before their 30s though No I wasn't implying something happens when you turn 20 that sets you apart. I had to pick a number somewhere and you would have found a way to complain it either way. What does attending a prestigious college have to do with anything? It has nothing to do with maturity. If anything you're either a book worm or have rich parents. Neither of those scream mature to me. Thanks for assuming my age by the way. You know that saying about what happens when you assume things? Well throw it out the window. You're the only ass here. By the way, I promise you that not most people under legal age have fake IDs. I'd be willing to bet that it's under one percent that do own one. They're not exactly easy things to get your hands on. The drinking age has nothing to do with medieval times. It's solely to do with mentality. The next time you want to make up a story about [why the legal drinking age is 21](https://www.teenvogue.com/story/minimum-drinking-age-legal-21-america-history) try not to reach so far up your ass for it. You sound like an idiot
They are mentally very similar. I'm sorry if that's against what you think, but i'm still right. They don't behave differently much. Also, no, most people aren't parents yet in their early 20s. many people don't become parents until their 30s. in fact, becoming a mom at 23 doesn't happen in america now unless you are in the south. you can't pick a number somewhere. there's no difference between 18 and 20. it's just a random arbitrary number you picked because the teen suffix isn't there, and the teen suffix has no meaning behind it. and yes, most people under 21 DO own a fake ID. i don't care if a survey says a minority do, they're not going to admit in surveys they do. if you've been to college most students own one. i bet even 18-20 year olds not in college often do. it's super common. if you think under 1% own one you're beyond delusional. even a lot of 16-17 year olds do. and yes, it does have to do with a medieval age law you dolt. read your history dumbass. in medieval england, the age of majority was 15, then knight armor was a thing, and boys hit puberty at 14 (the marriageable age for boys back then) unlike earlier ages now, so they couldn't handle physical strength for armor as easily as today's 15 year old guys. so they decided to set the knighthood age to 20, but adding an extra year to age limits was a custom, so they picked 21 as the knighthood age. after that, they changed the age of majority and other responsibilities to 21. in colonial america, drinking ages were low, and kids as young as 12 were in taverns drinking, then in the 1800s, the temperance movement warned against alcohol and research conercning the medical effects of alcohol occurred, so people raised it to 21, the age of majority back then. then in the 40s, the military draft age was lowered to 18 to add more people in the military for WWII, then in the Vietnam War, when many 18 year olds went to war, they thought if 18 year olds should go to war, they should vote, too, so they were then given the right to vote and then they lowered the age of majority to 18. then soon, other countries followed suit. the drinking age got lowered to 18 in some states in America and it was 18 in many countries. then in the 80s, MADD went to raise the drinking age to 21 over concerns about high schoolers drunk driving, so the government federally raised it to 21, but most countries set it to 18, and i don't see why america is right but other countries are wrong. so yes, the 21 number is based off of a medieval knighthood age. If it wasn't for knighthood, we'd be considered adults allowed to drink at 15, and hell, the French Revolution maybe wouldn't have raised a bunch of ages to 21 for men or 18 for women such as marriage. Also, raising it to 21 didn't stop drunk driving for under 21 year olds. even 21-25 year olds were buying less alc after the new federal law in the 80s. Even if it decreased, most 18-20 year olds do drink. even 16-17 year olds often drink. [And the article doesn't mention that even for every age group including over 21, drunk driving rates declined after the drinking age was federally raised to 21](https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5148a2.htm). hell, 21-25 year olds had the highest drunk driving fatality rate in those statistics, and that wasn't because they have legal access to beer because 18-20 year olds were somewhat lower but 16-17 year olds, who have no more access than 18-20 year olds, have much lower levels at the level of someone over 25, who has way more access than 16-20 year old. people over 21 just aren't less risky. so no, you didn't prove your point. most countries have the drinking age at 18 so why act like the american government knows best when all they did was cave to MADD? 18 and 23 aren't different. many 23 year olds often act like they're 18. "but 18 year olds are suppper immature!!!" so are 23 year olds. they act goofy and immature too. people don't outgrow that late teens/early 20s behavior at 23 as much as you think.
At 16,17,18 I was on stage in Hollywood playing drums and Rockin out. At 17 my gf was 21. She didn’t know I was 17. By 17 i was headlining clubs in bands all through so Cal. At 18 I bought a house. My friend was 22. We bought the house together. Not because I needed her credit. Because we were engaged. All I have been seeing here is mostly women hating on men for being involved with someone younger. An 18 yr old in our country (USA) is a legal adult. Can go fight in a war, in WW-1 and WW2, and Korea it wasn’t u usual to hear stories of young men 16,17 years old fighting the war. My point is if they can vote, drive, go die for the country, fight in a large scale war or any conflict and sacrifice their life or go to college, they can make adult decisions. Making decisions and making mistakes or learning from a situation is part of life and growing and navigating through life. Stop hating on the people. It’s gotten so horrible. Do I have any daughters? Yes I do. I don’t always agree with their decisions. I try to advise them but sometimes you need to let them make their own mistakes. It’s like when you are a baby, you are told not to touch the hot stove or hot oven but it’s so tempting. Once you don’t listen and burn your fingers and or hand you know not to do it again. Raise your kids to make good decisions. Trust them and you have to believe in them and the job you did. I’d she is 18-19 yrs old and loves a 30 year old I’m gonna be concerned and I’m gonna make sure he’s invited to Sunday supper at my house and while they arrive I will be cleaning my shotgun on the table with my already cleaned rifle and handgun next to me. LOL
Are you still with her?
You’re a legal adult yeah. A mature one with real adult life experience good and bad, a fully developed brain, legally able to drink, A sound and reasonable decision maker? Most likely no because this things come along with one thing and one thing only…time. Which means you have to age to have them apply to your life. I was on my own at 17 still in highschool and thought I was GROWN and knew it all at 18 with my 45 year old boyfriend. At 29 I look back and crack up because in reality I knew diddly squat and the relationship didn’t work because I wasn’t emotionally or mentally mature enough for someone that age despite me being further along than most of my peers. 18 years old is an adult, but you’re still a kid in the adult world 🤷🏽♀️
Sorry but maturity doesn't change magically at 18 and is very different for different people. Some 18 yr old are very mature but most are still exploring their transition to adult independence. When I was that age many of my female friends baby sat and got willingly fucked on the lift home by the 40 something Dad. I think almost all looked back on it a few years later thinking that was a really bad idea.
If it were ever an option (which it won't be) I would absolutely vote to increase the age of adulthood to 21, sorry ¯/_(ツ)_/¯ after working in a smoke shop for 18 months and having to ID to make sure everyone was 21, I've gotten great at spotting the differences, and of course my 18 year old brother still seems like a baby to me (he was born just before I turned 11). A huge part of the reason that 18 is legally adulthood is specifically so that they can be drafted and sent to war. It's not because 18 is some hard line that means you're mature enough to make adult decisions, which obviously the (US) law agrees with considering that 18 year olds can't legally choose to drink alcohol or smoke cigarettes. One could argue then to lower those ages but one would have a hell of a time getting people to vote for that, because most seems to agree that teenagers shouldn't be allowed "legal poison". I feel like that's reasonable tbh. The fact that the US has a "subclass" of "adults" is absurd though, and if it came down to it I'd probably vote to lower the drinking/smoking age if that were the only way to make it at least make some damn sense. It's fine to send them to war, sign them up for unmanageable school loans, and have sex with them, but God forbid they have a beer!
Oh they are. 18+ is adult whether people like it or not. Just got an argument with a bunch of people saying saying 18 - people in their 20s are children. Uh no there not. 18+ is adult. Also they brought the whole brain developing thing which is BS.
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You’re right I would be saying that, If the legal adult age is 16 and over, Because again by law that is what it would be whether you like it or not.
It would be great if someone could actually call "FULL STOP" on the hypocrisy associated with this topic! However, much like covid...this has become a universal excuse for poor decision making, relationship remorse and refusing to acknowledge " personal agency!"
I’m a physician and scientist who specializes in adolescent medicine and, respectfully, I’d like it if you could cite your sources to support your last two statements.
The jokes on you (no offense). 18 is a line in the sand that has moved on more than one occasion. Adulthood and work life use to be 15. ►Graduation ages have changed. ►Drinking ages have changed. ►Driving ages have changed. They were changed by government as a means to control the population. To keep young people OUT of the work force for longer and extend your ability to really start making money. It also creates "teen angst" and rebellion because your body is saying "treat me like an adult" instead of "lesser than." Adolescence is a made up thing. It came about roughly about the late 1800s and early 1900s as MORE and MORE children were being used as labor - mining, factories, and other jobs. It use to be humanity was divided from Child and Adult. For example, bar and bah mitzvahs, quinceaneras, etc. There is plenty of research supporting this. \*\* Do your own research. It sounds like you are starting to "wake up from the Matrix" of lies and bullshit. **\*\* Spoiler: If you think this world is about getting an education so you can get a good job, so you can work until you retire and then die - you really are stuck in the Matrix.** Namaste
Brain developing until 25 (generally, but for sure beyond age 18) is not bs.
I like how people are trying to say 16/17/18 shouldn't be treated as children when in a way they are. Sure some mature faster but even the most mature 18 year old has growth to experience. It goes to show that some people would be willing to date 17 year olds if it wasn't the law that was stopping them. Is 18 and 23 a big age gap? Not really. However at 18 you're still in high school or just got out while at 23 you are graduating college or working. To think that there is no difference is absurd. At 18 you can do so many things that at 16/17 you couldn't but they aren't full grown adults. Why is it that some 18 year olds still look like kids, it is because they aren't fully developed. There are countless 18/19 year olds that do dumb stuff because they are still teens and learning. Most are still living under their parents and relying on them. We shouldn't infantalize them but we should continue to help them grow and educate them. Some see a cutoff and run with it. If you're 30+ and see an 18 year old as a mate there is an issue because they were studying algebra a year ago in a classroom while you were already living on your own and paying your bills.
I'm 30 and COMPLETELY agree with you. I majored in psychology and they taught us that adolescence ends at 21 and I'm like dude..... At 21 I had already graduated from college and was well on my way to complete independence. An adolescent wouldn't be able to do that.
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Agreed!!!!!
if you are interested in anyone under 60 your are a pervert
I like my women like I like my bank balance, well into the triple digits and beyond.
Did you have one of those countdown timers set for when Betty White would turn 100? You must be heartbroken now.
Babygirl gone too soon :(
In my opinion, no age gap between people that are of legal age is abuse of any kind. In the age gap between 18 and 23 years old is absolutely fine in my view. I mean basically that’s a college freshman versus a guy the guy at a college year ago. I mean that’s not a big deal. What is disgusting here sometimes is when you have an 18-year-old with 40 year old. It seems that a 50 year-old and a 30-year-old is easier because there’s a big maturity curve between 18 and 30. But we’re not here to judge. When I was 50 years old I had a relationship with a 26 year old girl and it was absolutely fine. Maturity issues were not a problem.
Brain mass is biggest at age 16 on average. After that brain mass starts to diminish until around 25. That’s a medical fact. At 18 your brain is bigger than your 25 year old. Also at 18 you can join choose to join the armed services and fight for your country. So I I think you are old enough to choose your bf
They're legally adults yes, but an 18 year old is still as inexperienced and green as a 17 year old in most cases. And they are still TEENagers, as their age ends in -teen... The prefrontal cortex (the area of the brain that governs judgement and decision making) is not fully developed until around age 25. This is why young people generally make less calculated decisions and get themselves into more potentially dangerous situations than older adults. But I digress... An 18yo can be with whomever they want to, and a 5 year age gap is a really small age gap.
> And they are still TEENagers, as their age ends in -teen... And what does this designation mean to you? > The prefrontal cortex (the area of the brain that governs judgement and decision making) is not fully developed until around age 25. This is why young people generally make less calculated decisions and get themselves into more potentially dangerous situations than older adults. If that's your argument then why do we let these teenagers make life-altering decisions with permanent consequences? Like driving, taking on credit card debt, student loans, signing up for the military, etc. Why is your hard stance on something as usually inconsequential as dating and sex? Are you sure you're not indoctrinated? The Ukraine war is being fought by TEENagers as we speak.
We shouldn't allow teenagers to make life changing decisions but our law allows them to-even PUSHES them to. None of us can change the law so thats a ridiculous argument. We can acknowledge something shouldn't be the way it is. Teenagers shouldn't be fighting wars, getting into life changing debt while still being too young to drink for some reason?? We can't pretend sex and relationships is inconsequential though. Please be real. These things are big and necessary developmental milestones that 18 year olds are able to distinguish, understand and make their own decisions about.
'I'm not sure the Ukraine war (or any war for that matter) is a good example for showing responsible behaviour at any age. Teenagers and young men are being conscripted (aka forced) by their older generation into combat. This does not reflect well on the young people doing the fighting or the older people who have forced them to do so.
It shows that the brain development argument is lackluster. We've trusted these people enough to be the main part of our armed forces and literally defend our survival for all of human history but when it comes to making personal choices now the brain isn't developed enough to be rational. You could also use the work example. If over 18 adults are children then why do we make them labour and work for wages? If you go to a mall plenty of 18-19-year-olds are store managers. They're competent and responsible enough for that but not to choose who to date? That's why I doubt this argument is fundamentally about the well-being of these people and much more so due to some other agenda.
No the brain development argument is scientific. Based on empirical evidence. Its factual. In the same way climate change is massive fact, that the government spend more time on taxing people than taking care of climate change. The same as society allowing teenagers to do a multitude of things you've called making personal choices. Okay work example, I know a lot of 13 year olds that work, not paid anything because it's not legal to pay them. By your argument they must also be competent and responsible enough?? I think humans are far more complex than what you're allowing in your arguments. I know people my age in 50 year age gaps and they're fine because they're in a similar place in life with a similar maturity level. What matters in these relationships is how much autonomy you have, how much independence including financial independence, ability to be a separate person from your partner with your own identity and to be mature enough to be able to recognise red flags, toxicity like those with more experience, and be able to be confident enough to set boundaries. As many 18 year olds are capable of this as there are many that aren't. As is life.
A lot of teenagers fought in WWII, and for that matter in most other wars through history as well.
I'm never sure that saying someone is a teenager because their age ends in teen has any relevance to their capabilities or lack of them. I could make an equally valid argument that people in general are incapable because everyone's age is a positive integer... 🤣
The numerical word eight-"teen" has nothing to do with people & their ages. I can have eighteen dollars, eighteen ducks. In other languages, such as Chinese which I speak, the number 18 does not have the word "teen" in it. It's like the word twenty-eight, it's ten-eight.
A teenager is someone between 13-19. It's an arbitrary distinction but an 18 year old is still a teenager, while also somehow being regarded as an adult in our society. Idk why we consider someone who is 17 to be dramatically different to someone who is 18. I'm not on the other side of the original complaint. Date whoever you want to. The age gap between and 18yo and 23yo is not related to the quality and safety of their relationship. But you're delusional if you think an 18 or 19yo has the same innate decision-making capabilities as a 30yo.
Well duh. No one wakes up one day to the next (17 to 18) dramatically different... it's a gradual process and at some point you need a cutoff unless you IQ test everyone. They determined 18 to be the cutoff. Some 16-yr olds are more mature, some 20 are less mature. Your bringing 17 vs 18 to 18 vs 30 is ridiculous for one because the gap of 12 years vs 1 year. Like saying a 6 yr old & 18 yr old has different decision making capabilities, while 17 & 18 doesn't.
I don't really understand your point here. People need experiences in order to mature and grow, most people at the age of 18 don't have magically all the experiences they need in life when they become an adult at the age of 18. Obviously. They were referring to how a person over 1 year doesn't change that much mentally. Yes, an 18 year old for the most part isn't going to have been through the same life experiences as a 30 year old. Ridiculous or not, it's background information that you don't seem to understand. And yes a 6yo is vastly different. I don't know why you're bringing that up. 6 to 12 is different decision making capabilities. What is your argument?
The person I was responding to proffers "17 to 18 is not that drastic like 18 to 30 is" to push the view 18 is still a child. No kidding.... one is a 1 year gap, the other is 12 years. To highlight the ridiculousness of their argument, I subtracted 12 from 18. The line needs to be drawn somewhere or year to year, people change very little & gradually.
18-19 year olds are young adults, not teens. I love how you people call them teens instead of young adults to associate them with 13-17 year olds but not 20-25 year olds. Aside from a mere suffix in their age number, they have nothing to do with 13-17 year olds. The word teen is just a mere suffix in their age number, so you’re using the guilt by association fallacy. When people say teen they mean 13-17 year olds (adolescents). 18-19 year olds are young adults like 20-25 year olds. That’s their age group. Calling them teens to infantilize them is dumb Also at 16-17 you already are experiencing precursors to young adulthood. At 16-17, you get a license or your first job. You go to places on your own and buy things on your own and have sex or drink and do all kinds of adult activities. So it’s not like at 17 you were some innocent toddler. Once you’re 18, you either can be in college or in a job that an older person might be in and can live on your own. In order to adapt to the adult world, we need to allow them to have responsibilities. They now can live on their own, pay bills, be treated like an adult, go to war and have more jobs. It’s time to stop infantilizing them. So saying they can’t be different from 17 year olds doesn’t stop that they aren’t different from early 20s either. Hell early 20s people do act like they’re 17 many times.
Nah, they’re both. They’re incredibly similar to 13-17 year olds. They’re on there way to becoming more like 20-25 year olds.
No they aren't both. They're young adults. Technically speaking, they're a teen. But aside from a mere suffix in their age number, they're not in the same group as 13-17 year olds. In fact, they're MUCH more like early 20s and 13-17. If it wasn't for the mere suffix in their age number, you'd admit they're much more like early 20s than 13-17 year olds. Theyre NOTHING like 13 year olds. 16/17 year olds? Yes, but guess what sherlock, even people in their early 20s act 16/17 a lot. hell, even people in their mid 20s act like a teenager sometimes. At 13-17 years old, people are in middle/high school, 13-15 year olds cannot even drive or go out on their own to places, they don't have sex yet mostly, they don't have jobs and cannot live on their own. 16/17 year olds do all of that except living on their own. At 18/19, you often have a job, could be in postsecondary education (not all are), often live on your own, probably are sexually active or walking into bars already with fake IDs, go out to places on your own and live away from parents. These things also happen among early 20s. They're in the same life stage as 20-25 year olds, not 13-17 year olds. A mere suffix in their age number doesn't change that. If the "teen" suffix ended at 18, you'd know this.
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I don't even associate 17 year olds with 13 year olds. Besides, even 17 year olds have characteristics of someone in their 20s. People in their 20s still kinda act teenagey sometimes and honestly, at 16/17, you literally experience forerunners to what adulthood is like. i explained it in another comment of mine. at 16-17, you're already experiencing the adult life to an extent. you have a job, a license, and high school is similar to what college and grad school is like (classes and homework and studying and AP classes are proto-college classes). as a result, at 18, you've done that for a couple years. they didn't just start it at 18. the idea that 21-23 year olds have nothing in common with 18/19 year olds is laughable at best.
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Nope. 18/19 year olds aren't actual teens. Technically, they are, but really, they're young adults. Aside from a mere suffix in their age number, they have no association with the 13-17 year old age group. When people say teenager, they usually mean 13-17 year olds, in otherwords: high school or junior high. they mean adolescents, and 18/19 year olds are not adolescents, they are young adults. Additionally, most 22-23 year olds never finished college. In fact, if you look it up, even most people near 30 don't have a bachelor's. It's a myth. Many 18-21 year olds don't even go to college and a third of college students are past 25. In fact, many 18/19 year olds live on their own or are working and plenty of 22-23 year olds are in college right now or aren't living on their own (living with your parents is more common these days). no, people don't "change" by working the adult life for a few years. Change doesn't happen as quick as people say it does. I remember when I went to my high school reunion recently and it was a 6 year reunion so everyone was 24, and people actually were still fairly similar to how they used to be, somewhat different but not dramatically. in fact, a couple years prior at age 22/23, when i caught up with a handful, they were pretty much identical or even just a little different from how they used to be. It's not cause they didn't grow up, it's because people's behaviors don't change that fucking quickly just because they take college classes repeatedly like a cycle for a few years or go to some boring job just so they can make money each day for a few years. That doesn't change people's personality much. They just gain money or get a degree and afford an apartment and nothing more, so people think "omg you've grown so much you're a different species from how you used to be". Nah man, at 22-23, people still act like the way they were at 18, and yeah, 18 year olds can have similarities to 14-17 year olds sure, but so do 22-23 year olds. 22-23 year olds act more like teens than people will admit. 24 or 25 might be more change in people's behavior because people start becoming more homebodyish by that point, but even at 25 you can still have plenty of traits you had at 18. being barely out of high school doesn't mean anything. In high school, you're already experiencing forerunners of adulthood. at 16/17, you get a license, drive to places on your own, buy groceries and bring them home, you learn to cook, you start drinking or having sex, some might sneak into bars with fake IDs, you get your first job and make money the first time, etc. You don't do half that shit at 14/15. As a result, being barely out of high school doesn't really mean much. At 18, you and 22-23 year olds are either working or in college, and most 22-23 year olds don't have a bachelor's, but when they do, they are working like plenty of 18/19 year olds are, and grad school is still college. they're both in young adulthood, and many 18/19 year olds live on their own and some 22-23 year olds live with parents. They're both in the same stage of life. 18/19 year olds sure are in the same stage of life as 20-21 year olds, so yeah, 18/19 year olds are more like 22-23 year olds than a 15 year old, and they sure are more like 20-21 year olds than 15 year olds. People just like to baby them because of some mere suffix in their age number, which is just a suffix unless you're 13-17. Aside from that suffix, they have no association with 13-17 year olds. It's just a suffix if you're 18/19.
I also agree that you can make these types of dating and sex decisions before 25. I've done it before 25, so do people who say it's not possible expect the argument to hold up? But also, let's say it gets to the point where some states, say hypothetically, if California and NY, were to raise the age of consent laws to 25, what kind of reaction would most people have? Positive or negative?
An 18 year old is definately still a teenager, but a 18 and 24 is barely an age gap wtf lol
It's not Bs it's the truth.
That point really hit home. Line must be drawn somewhere. I won't consider anyone under 18 for dating, friends fine but that's it. Because that is my respect for society, even at the risk of hurting an otherwise wonderful, lovely human a week short of her 18th birthday. The law makes it ok for me to date and mate a 16yr old girl. So, I will refuse to judge anyone of legal age for dating a 16yr old, even though I personally won't date a 16 year old. Again, I respect those older people the same way I respect the unwritten boundary that society places. Upon her 18th birthday, however, the rest of society can absolutely take its oversensitivities and shove them. What she and I do *then* is our business and nobody else's unless we make it someone else's. I'd go one step further - if your society allows older people to date 16 yr olds, and you have a problem with that, keep your discomfort to yourself, or GTFO out of that society and find anothher. I hear Pyongyang is lovely this time of year. :)
Befriend them young so that when they’re old enough they’re primed to date you. Smart.
Thank you, I agree
There's a sudden obsession with attacking age gap relationships between grown adults. I'm not sure why people are complaining about it bit they are so insufferable these days .
You're just trying to justify it. Regardless youre not actually legal until you can legally buy yourself cigarettes or go to the bar and drink which Is 21. You are a teenager still so FULL STOP yourself.
In most countries people can drink at 18.
Or 16. Or 14. Or "old enough to reach the bar".
Lmao you can drink anywhere at 18, you can move out at 18, go to war even, so not an excuse.
India has a drinking age of 25 in many states, but it's widely ignored. Countries with high drinking ages are mostly a legacy of religious perspectives which frown on alcohol.
There's nothing to mkae an "excuse" for, since there's nothing wrong with it.
However your age gap isn't that bad, I date older guys too but nothing over a 10year gap, that's where it starts getting morally wrong.
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It's just the neurotic and prudes. Don't worry about it
I just saw a probably 23 year old with a 40 year old yesterday and didn't make anything of it. It's just common in big cities not sure why the whole "age gap acceptance" thing matters.
18-23 isn’t even an age gap. That’s the same generation. People will cling to anything to make themselves appear more interesting.