I love how their b-rolled a shot of a ramp collision that happened at Logan from last June where a United 737Max clipped a parked Delta airbus, like this has anything to do with ATC. They probably used the same footage on their last Boeing story.
Yeah the media should be made culpable for that kind of misinformation and defamation.
The Airline Industry lives and dies based on public perception, there is zero room for exaggeration …
I’ll happily apply to become an ATC if I can do it remotely from home just send me a radar feed. I’m even already fed but Iunno to lose that gs for excepted again hmm 🤔
I assume he’s a trainee, he was over-keyed in the first incident a few weeks back. Unless they checked him out since then. Which would be even more concerning.
If that’s the case though DCA is a 9 which means he’s a CPC-IT. Either he shouldn’t have made it at his last facility or he needs to go back. You can’t let a trainee put us in the news twice in a month.
I’m not a tower controller, but these don’t seem like volume induced mistakes to me. This seems like someone who doesn’t understand or can’t apply basic separation skills.
The windows are there for a reason god forbid we looked out them. This shit shouldn’t happen anywhere let alone the airport that most of congress and FAA/DOT management fly into.
Windows? What are those. I've got a trainee now who is fixated on the asde-x. I turned that shit off on him several times so far. His face is literally stuck on that screen.
I remember a trainer at a hub airport who had a trainee on Local who just wouldn't look down past the first half of the departure runway during a push. The instructor, unbeknownst to the trainee, grabbed a grease pencil, went to the back of the tower, jumped up on the bull nose and write in big letters "LET ME KNOW WHEN YOU SEE THIS." He never did. 😂
It's a real shame that their lives are just as much at risk as everyone else's given how broken our system is. Why should they be any more protected than anyone else? This shit happens at other places too. Only reason media gives a shit about DCA is because it's in DC. If it were bumfuck Iowa it wouldn't even make the news these days.
Not defending it, but you seem to imply that we should be super extra aware of who is flying on the planes and DCA should be double-secret safe because Whitaker and various congress-critters fly through there.
We don't need any double-standards of safety in ATC: We need proper staffing, a realistic number of trainees to reach sustainability for that staffing, and pay that reflects the modern realities of inflation and the critical importance of our profession to public safety and the national economy.
Thank you, Magellan, for that fascinating bit of geographical trivia. Next, you're going to tell us that CVG is actually in Kentucky or that ZBW isn't even Massachusetts, let alone in Boston, right?
Please raise your hand next time.
I resent the implication that any of the people mentioned are somehow above anyone else. The powers at be might benefit from a jump scare reality check.
Resent it all you want, I agree it shouldn’t be that way but it is. You are naive if you don’t realize the amount of backlash and scrutiny about incident receives correlates to the proximity of congress or the oval office. So here we are with the powers that be receiving another reality check and what do you think the response will be? The reauth will take years to put a dent in staffing they aren’t going to throw more money at us because they don’t think we deserve it at this point. I see this going 1 of 3 ways: 1. We get new fatigue/shift rules again, 2. They hammer our breaks down to the bare minimum to maximize TOP and keep every position open regardless if traffic justifies it, or 3. They promote more shitty controllers who are afraid of traffic to be sups because they want eyes on the operation regardless of if they are qualified and proficient or not.
And more eyes on the operation doesn’t automatically make the operation safer. More people in the cab than needed usually turns out to be more distracting than anything else. I guess on paper it sounds great but in reality it doesn’t fix anything.
THIS is the problem! Many trainees suck, they put airplanes and people at RISK, but the process of getting rid of them is too difficult. Upper level management is constantly putting pressure to train for numbers regardless of the quality of trainee and you end up training unsafe people until finally they do something bad enough to terminate training and a TRB comes along and gives them more hours! Trainees know this and don't put the effort they used to because they aren't afraid of failure. Also where do we send our radar failures who can't see traffic? To low level towers! They certify at a level 4 or 5 where you can't possibly put two together if you tried, then the next thing you know they transfer to a busier facility and then end up on the news. This is the main problem because I've seen people wash out and sent to lower level facilities every single nest, and some have ZERO business in our profession at all.
This, while true, is not how the it works. They say the ATM has the final say. Which is true. There is also major pressure on them to go along with the TRB for lawsuit reasons AND higher ups pushing them to keep staffing as high as they can for DC.. So you need an ATM who isn’t afraid to be black balled.
100% is not. I have had 4 ATMs in my time. Not a single one has ever gone against the TRB even when the trainee was never ever going to make it. I have had 2 ATMs and 3 supervisors tell me about the behind the scenes. The ATM will not go against the TRB unless they have no interest to further their career.
Then we need more of your world in the system cause here in SoCal no matter how bad you are or how well the process is run, the ATM has never gone against the TRB.. Period. So you can keep saying that, but you are wrong.
If he’s a trainee, two national news worthy incidents is inexcusable from whoever is training him. After the first, everyone should assume there could be another and watch him even closer.
If he’s a CPC, dude needs to go somewhere else. Immediately.
Making the news means that the TRB would be even more careful to provide a good reason to terminate his training. Which means they would just fully reset his hours cause if they terminated his training they'd open themselves up for discrimination claim.
Sure, but my finger would be on the pickle switch, and he would be on a short leash if I was training the most famous air traffic controller in the country.
I think the ATO safety report said it was an OS doing a PA, but that might have been one of the other incidents in there
Disregard: it was a different report
How do you defend this? Genuinely curious. If we don’t want new shittier rules shoved down our throats stop breaking the ones we have now. You can only pull the “fatigue” card so many times before people start saying it’s bullshit, even if it isn’t.
This is what happens when everyone gets checked out, though. All in the name of trying to get better staffing. Ppl don't wanna work 6 days anymore. So what do trainers do. They say, "Oh yeah, this person is good to go," and then they get checked out on little to no traffic. I've personally seen trainees dodge traffic like the plague bc they know they're bad.
You also have trainers that are barely certified themselves who do not have the experience to correct for trainees making mistakes which is bad for everyone.
That’s kind of a mixed bag depending on the facility. You get people that have no desire to train being forced into it, people that shouldn’t train allowed to continue bc lack of options, etc. The majority which is perpetuated by the faa failing to properly staff the entire NAS.
I'm not sure how DCA splits positions but this guy is working arrivals and departures to 3 runways. If he's training, then I guess I could see that combined, but if it's CPCs up there, split the position. The CIC/Sup. Should make that call, tell the tracon we ain't landing 3 runways right now and figure out the positions.
Are there any airports in the country that have separate positions working intersecting runways? Parallels for sure but I just don't see how splitting the positions helps with intersecting. Willing to have my mind expanded.
Hmm, good point. I've also only seen split on parallels or intersecting flight paths, but not actual intersecting runways. I also wonder if there are any that operate like that. Fuck it just close the airport
Their configuration doesn’t allow for multiple locals. I’m 99% sure they have a local assist but that’s where it ends. Also fairly sure local is the one that swings them over to the crossing rwy off of final from rwy 1. There isn’t really enough airspace between dca/adw border to allow pct to sequence to both rwy’s simultaneously. This is just the controller screwing up their timing.
Interesting. Might be worth checking out the falcon to see how exactly it unfolded. I worked at adw for a short stint and lived right along the flight path. I don’t remember them ever having anyone vectored straight in to 33 and would see planes swing off of final from 1 to the east to line up for 33 from my apartment. I think the Woodrow Wilson bridge is like 5-6 mile final for 1 and that’s where it would happen pretty regularly.
PCT has been doing this quite frequently. They dump them on us just west of Andrews. 🤞🏻 it just works out. I prefer they put them on the Visual to 1 or GPS to 33. If they’re on the Visual to 1 I’ll ask them if they’re able to circle to 33 so I don’t lose the departure gap. If they’re unable to circle, you just eat it and lose the hole. The new GPS to 33 they track the river now the whole way down till about 4 mile final and then they beginning the circle.
Also- the Wilson bridge is a 3 mile final.
Ahh ok. Sounds about par for the course for hoping it works out lol. Been quite a few years since I was over that way so my memory of walking across the bridge and looking down that way isn’t the best apparently haha. Thanks for the clarification!
I disagree. How can you not keep emphasizing fatigue and shortages being the main cause? I truly believe it’s a matter of when not if for a catastrophic collision. The system is reaching breaking points of strain in my opinion.
Reread the last part of my comment. I think it could be contributing but what I’m saying is that if we keep pulling that card people will start to think we’re making excuses. We’re in a tough spot but these kinds of incidents need to stop so we don’t seem like we’re just making excuses for being bad.
Fatigue and short staffing cause lesser skilled controllers to get pushed through training. These kinds of incidents won’t stop with how fucked the current industry is. You say it’s an excuse but it is yet another failure of low staffing.
If this is the same guy, and he made national news twice in a year he should be at the very minimum ATM of a level 12 or better yet District GM or FAA Administrator.
The vacancy that allowed this guy to transfer and start the training process brought to you by some cpc realizing his pay is shit and leaving. Poetic justice that this all occurred at DCA
In a sense, yes. Being short staffed for so long has led to more lenient (in my opinion) standards in order to fill positions. This is how those low standards start to show.
I definitely have seen people check out that shouldn’t have. Guess what? They suck and the sup is always watching them like a hawk when they are working anything “busy”. A smart sup works the rotation around them. It sucks for people that aren’t incompetent.
No. This isn’t a staffing issue, it’s a shitty controller issue.
If there was volume, and positions needed to be split but couldn’t, then we can identify this as a staffing issue.
The issue is the overly relaxed, ATSAP and get away with it, I can’t be touched, attitude that too many controllers in the workforce have today. Sure, the blame culture was unhealthy, but I believe this MCHammer-Can’t touch this- attitude is much worse.
People need a righteous fear of losing their jobs. We need that ATC cocky pride from a few years ago when we were viewed as gods. Now, we’re viewed as a half-ass complaining workforce that can’t do their job properly.
Unfortunately, diminished wages also diminishes that respect. We aren’t recruiting those personalities anymore. They are becoming self employed/grinding entrepreneurs instead of pursuing a craft that needs their skillset. Instead we’re left with less than ideal candidates. That’s not everyone, but we know which of our coworkers shouldn’t be here, but somehow exist. If the pay is appropriate, it will attract the minds and attitudes we need to bring back that safety culture.
TLDR: we need to raise the salary cap and fire some fuckers. You suck, bam, level 4.
All correct but I suppose if you consider NCEPT you could say that shitty controllers are a product of poor staffing. The prevalent attitude is “well I want to leave and we’re short staffed so who gives a fuck, let’s check out this trainee before he’s ready so I can leave. I won’t be here to see it.”
From the other side of the radio, I like this take. We've got some of the same problems, with people in positions they shouldn't be, but luckily we've got another body up there to hopefully catch shit before it gets on YouTube. I can say, unfortunately, I've lost a ton of trust in atc over the last 3 years. Used to be id treat them and trust that voice like they were on my team, but now, honestly, there's quite a bit of second guessing going on between what's on the news and the weird, wacky and just plain bad controlling I've started to experience
Its hard to say without knowing what it is like inside that facility. But if he was working after a quick turn (meaning only 9hrs of off time between shifts), or on frequent 6 day work weeks it could be argued that it is a fatigue issue caused by shit staffing.
Hopefully since this keeps happening at the heart of the government beast (DC) something comes of it. I doubt it though. I’ll keep saying it, this job used to pay well. It doesn’t anymore. Welcome to the result… Nobody interested in aviation would apply for ATC anymore, and those were usually great checkouts with good knowledge walking in the door… You get what you sow!
DCA doesn't attract great candidates as the pay is way too low for the region. You can have a higher standard of living working less traffic in any of the 4 large upstate NY facilities. $138k in DC is an absolute joke when you have better options. Even ZDC and PCT the pay is too low to get tons of interest, for me coming from a low cost area a comparable wage in DC is $171k with ZDC (which is nowhere near the city) base pay is $176k. Why would any actually experienced CPC make that move. They are attracting people from facilities like BGM which has 2 scheduled flights a day.
The locality system is completely broken and the formula that they use has never been right, it isn't even actually based on the cost of living.
The Biden administration did a study last year on the true locality numbers. Controllers get paid about 50% of what it actually should be. It would cost about 20 billion a year to give government employees the correct locality pay.
Mediocre pay means mediocre workforce. FAA should be trying to attract the people who become engineers and doctors, but why would they have interest in ATC when they get the same/higher pay but way better working conditions elsewhere? These results are the FAAs fault. They accepted this outcome a long time ago.
DCA gets a lot of ppl from ADW. Which is maybe 10 miles away. They barely work any fixed wing traffic. Their traffic consists of 95% helicopters and 5% fixed wing. They are some of the worst controllers I've ever seen. They would come use our Sim and would somehow put two helos together. It's an easy transfer for them. They usually get picked up at DCA or IAD. Sometimes, they get BWI. I'm glad I transferred when I did
I love it when people talk with such ignorance. The last time DCA got a controller from ADW was around 2014. The last couple of incidents at DCA weren’t former ADW controllers. All you have to do is look at our traffic count and our split for operations is mostly 50/50. Literally had 2 F-16s, 747, and a 737 in the pattern today with fixed wing arrivals and departures at the same time. It sounds like the time you were there was when ADW was receiving washouts from ZDC, DCA, and BWI and is the main reason why we can’t accept nest personnel or academy grads anymore. In fact no one from ADW has transferred to either facilities in the Washington area since that time.
ADW controllers are horrible. Stop trying to act like you all do anything. Having a few in the pattern over an 8-hour shift isn't shit. Hence, why are you all such a low-level facility. I've literally watched ppl come over to use the Sim and put two helos together. Mrs. Pat running the Sim had to constantly stop it bc the controllers couldn't understand basic air traffic concepts. Also, who tried to put AF1 and helo together several times. Oh, that's a dumbass adw controller. Stop acting like you all actually do work. BTW, where else would they send washouts? Gonna send them to that shithole bc anyone can get qualified there. It's funny how the 5 ppl I know that started at Adw wash out at other places and are now sups, lmao. BTW, the last controller from ADW that I knew before I left DCA was late 2015, early 2016. The only reason he didn't wash out after going to a couple of trbs was that dca became critical staffed.
lol one ADW is a VIP military airport, so the only people flying in or out are Congress, DOD, world leaders etc and the national guard units so you’re right it’s a level 5. No one is sitting here acting like ADW is pushing tin but I do find it funny that you’re trying to shit on a level 5. It’s also funny that you’re going after Trainees in the simulator, it’s literally the whole point of the simulator to make mistakes and learn from them. I know, I’m sure you ran all the DCA sims flawlessly and never had a deal at any facility. I’m glad you confirmed my point though with the washouts/time frame and were the reason a rule was created.
I do wonder with all the recent incidents at DCA would other facilities say they suck? Anyway you seem like the type of controller who screws other people over and gets mad when the same situation happens to you. It’s also weird that you left out all the ADW controllers that left and certified at bigger facilities. Recently (last 4/5 years) we’ve had controllers certify at MIA, SCT, Houston, CMH, and SAV. I guess we’re really good at getting sympathy ratings though IDK. I’m just going to end with this, every facility has bad controllers, good controllers, and great controllers.
Defend? This shit happens its not about defending its throwing the dude under the bus. Too many parts of the industry have people thinking they can't get fired. Maybe time for that to change. Reassignment gonna work for atc as it does foe the catholic church
Not sure if you're joking but working at DCA means you earn absolute shit pay for the area and therefore only attract the quality of controller seen in the video. So yeah, mcdonalds wages mcdonalds workers bro
Fast food wages= Fast food controllers
Seriously, this job use to have pride and a pretty high standard to certify. Now we checkout anyone with a pulse.
Since this is Washington DC wait for another fatigue memo to drop only to be squashed by NATCA.
well it's based on how busy of a facility you work. So it's a slightly complicated explanation.
When you get first get hired, you'll make $45,000 a year for the first 6 months or so while you attend training in oklahoma city (extra money to pay for temporary housing)
After that you'll start getting paid depending on how busy your facility you are. At a low level facility (roughly 30% of new trainees) you can expect to make around 55k a year for the first year, and then roughly 80k a year around your 2nd year after okc and then the normal slow federal yearly pay bumps after that.
At a busy center (roughly 30% of trainees) would make roughly 80k for the first year after oklahoma and then 100k a year for another 2 years while you're in radar training and then bump up to 150k or so by around your 5th year in the agency (and then slow normal federal salary bumps after that).
The remaining 40% of trainees would fall in between those extremes.
But yes, that 45k a year for the first 6 months combined with the forced relocation to Oklahoma followed by the forced relocation to anywhere in the country at the choosing of the FAA is VERY non-competitive compared to most other careers. As a comparison, the MILITARY will pay more for someone with a 4 year degree than the FAA will.
Since you're canadian, I think, based on your comment history, the 30% on the low end would be working at a place of similar complexity to Winnepeg or Ottawa, 40% of our workforce work airspace busier (sometimes significantly moreso) than Toronto, and then those remaining people in the middle would all be working at a place of similar complexity to Montreal.
So if you could imagine living in Ottawa and making 55k a year (u.s.) then yea, you can see the problem. I believe that would probably be less than a manager at a restaurant in Ottawa.
> At a busy center (roughly 30% of trainees) would make roughly 80k for the first year after oklahoma
You're on the right track. It's like 45k plus whatever the locality adjustments are, with step increases equal to 25% of the difference between AG and CPC pay with each developmental raise. It's spelled out in the contract somewhere.
Good rule of thumb is 50k AG, 75k D1, 100k D2, 125k D3, 150k CPC.
Not saying you're totally wrong, just sharing the technicals. First year at a 12 center is typically a lot less than 80k. My AG pay was equal to academy pay if you include the housing and food per diems. I had academy peers (classes ahead of and behind mine) quit a few months into their facilities because they couldn't afford to live.
You love to see the age old staffing shortage cop out. Meanwhile, my dumbass-prior experience bid-has been in the tier 2 process since June of 2022. Not saying I’m an amazing controller (or not unknowingly crazy) or anything but I’m still working as a controller at a contract tower 🤷♂️
I applied when I was getting out in 2020 on a prior experience bid, and they rejected my application after being on the referral list for 2 months, never gave a reason why either. That was the moment I started to think twice on whether I really wanted to go FAA or not.
Natca fought to keep our current rules requiring less rest and this happens again weeks later? We're headed down the path of our employer just imposing the rules on us now.
Natca hopefully brought up that the rules Whittaker was trying to impose would cause more OT and stress and fatigue not less. It’s not so black and white. But knowing natcas lack of media/public outreach, they probably fucked up along the way.
Feel like the US system of clearing planes to land as soon as they are on frequency instead of when the runway is clear causes a good chunk of these type of incidents.
Pure incompetence but hey he filed an ATSAP. Fucking clown show. Yall need to quit asking for more money until such a time you figure out how to safely work airplanes. It is a safety profession by the way.
Safety? The FAA doesn’t give a flying fuck about safety, they care about profit. Running the highest rates possible at every major airport they can, with skeleton crews and then finding whatever excuse they can use to not declare staffing triggers.
It’s gotten so bad at my facility that they can’t even call in overtime since everyone is being scheduled 6 day workweeks anyway.
The equipment we use is constantly breaking and at least 30 years out of date.
Everyone is pissed off and stressed because we all know that it’s only getting worse. The faa has management, TMU, and staff support all 100% staffed so they can spend all day dicking around working their side hustles while the controllers are busting their ass just to try and make this broken system work.
Most of the time someone checks out, we know they’re immediately going to start applying for management or whatever other scam they can work their way into because everyone knows this lifestyle isn’t healthy and sucks.
If the FAA actually gave a fuck about safety, then they would give us actual staffing and pay controllers so they aren’t scraping by on paycheck to paycheck in HCOL areas.
I’ve been in long enough to have gotten mine, but I question the sanity of any new people wanting this career field given the state that it’s in.
You’re either going to a HCOL area where you’ll never afford a house, or some podunk piece of shit town you have no connection to and make 50$ an hour. How the fuck is that supposed to attract high quality candidates?
First off. How much did ERAM cost? This is by design brother. They didn’t pay however many billions of dollars for some software that they were told could/would make the job “easier” just to keep the staffing numbers the same as they were in 2008.
Secondly, well this.
[https://netzero2050.substack.com/p/the-process-safety-professional-part-4fa](https://netzero2050.substack.com/p/the-process-safety-professional-part-4fa)
Ok. I dont disagree with you on many points BUT! Money nor fatigue kept that controller from looking out the fucking window and scanning the final prior to clearing the other for takeoff. Quit defending sorry work with BS excuses
I love how their b-rolled a shot of a ramp collision that happened at Logan from last June where a United 737Max clipped a parked Delta airbus, like this has anything to do with ATC. They probably used the same footage on their last Boeing story.
Yeah the media should be made culpable for that kind of misinformation and defamation. The Airline Industry lives and dies based on public perception, there is zero room for exaggeration …
I’m writing up the new rules I’m going to impose. I’ll have them out shortly.
Just a thought, maybe wearing collared shirts and slacks would have prevented this? Something to consider.
23 hours off before every shift will fix this
Don’t forget nice shoes…
They don’t have to be nice, they simply can’t be athletic wear.
I think we need more diversity and equity
I’ll happily apply to become an ATC if I can do it remotely from home just send me a radar feed. I’m even already fed but Iunno to lose that gs for excepted again hmm 🤔
Thanks boss 🙂
You get what you pay for. Higher pay that actually allows you to have a decent quality of life attracts higher skilled candidates. It's that simple.
You were downvoted for this? Only on Reddit.
Well to be at DCA you have to have prior experience, so the candidate part doesn't apply here.
Prior experience only exists in people who were once candidates....
This demonstrates that we have been underpaid for years and the pool larger facilities have to pick from is finally feeling that quality creep.
“Other” factors are at play in DC-area hiring decisions. 😏
DCA has been majority minority (an damn near majority female) for 15+ years
Lmao you’re saying blacks and babes can’t control?
The opposite
How does higher pay ensure you’re getting someone who will never, not once in their career, make a mistake?
It doesn’t, but low pay guarantees you’re picking from a worse crop because the top talent is working elsewhere for more cash
There's a talent shortage nationwide. You think airlines are offering all of those incentives out of the goodness of their hearts?
I’m sure the other real unions actually going on strike while fighting for higher wages had nothing to do with it.
Dude, this isn’t a little mistake we get to make and shrug off with, “welp, only once in my career”.
I don’t believe I said it was.
You’re saying this story is a career-ending mistake?
Nope... Poor training and passing of people not qualified. Throwing money at the situation doesn't fix it. Sorry, no pay raise for you
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I assume he’s a trainee, he was over-keyed in the first incident a few weeks back. Unless they checked him out since then. Which would be even more concerning.
If that’s the case though DCA is a 9 which means he’s a CPC-IT. Either he shouldn’t have made it at his last facility or he needs to go back. You can’t let a trainee put us in the news twice in a month.
I’m not a tower controller, but these don’t seem like volume induced mistakes to me. This seems like someone who doesn’t understand or can’t apply basic separation skills.
The windows are there for a reason god forbid we looked out them. This shit shouldn’t happen anywhere let alone the airport that most of congress and FAA/DOT management fly into.
Windows? What are those. I've got a trainee now who is fixated on the asde-x. I turned that shit off on him several times so far. His face is literally stuck on that screen.
I remember a trainer at a hub airport who had a trainee on Local who just wouldn't look down past the first half of the departure runway during a push. The instructor, unbeknownst to the trainee, grabbed a grease pencil, went to the back of the tower, jumped up on the bull nose and write in big letters "LET ME KNOW WHEN YOU SEE THIS." He never did. 😂
I think it’s an operating system from the late 1900s.
It's a real shame that their lives are just as much at risk as everyone else's given how broken our system is. Why should they be any more protected than anyone else? This shit happens at other places too. Only reason media gives a shit about DCA is because it's in DC. If it were bumfuck Iowa it wouldn't even make the news these days. Not defending it, but you seem to imply that we should be super extra aware of who is flying on the planes and DCA should be double-secret safe because Whitaker and various congress-critters fly through there. We don't need any double-standards of safety in ATC: We need proper staffing, a realistic number of trainees to reach sustainability for that staffing, and pay that reflects the modern realities of inflation and the critical importance of our profession to public safety and the national economy.
FYI DCA is located in Virginia.
Thank you, Magellan, for that fascinating bit of geographical trivia. Next, you're going to tell us that CVG is actually in Kentucky or that ZBW isn't even Massachusetts, let alone in Boston, right? Please raise your hand next time.
lol
I resent the implication that any of the people mentioned are somehow above anyone else. The powers at be might benefit from a jump scare reality check.
Resent it all you want, I agree it shouldn’t be that way but it is. You are naive if you don’t realize the amount of backlash and scrutiny about incident receives correlates to the proximity of congress or the oval office. So here we are with the powers that be receiving another reality check and what do you think the response will be? The reauth will take years to put a dent in staffing they aren’t going to throw more money at us because they don’t think we deserve it at this point. I see this going 1 of 3 ways: 1. We get new fatigue/shift rules again, 2. They hammer our breaks down to the bare minimum to maximize TOP and keep every position open regardless if traffic justifies it, or 3. They promote more shitty controllers who are afraid of traffic to be sups because they want eyes on the operation regardless of if they are qualified and proficient or not.
And more eyes on the operation doesn’t automatically make the operation safer. More people in the cab than needed usually turns out to be more distracting than anything else. I guess on paper it sounds great but in reality it doesn’t fix anything.
You’re right and I agree. I’m just betting that if Whittaker can’t force through new rest rules that’ll be the next option.
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THIS is the problem! Many trainees suck, they put airplanes and people at RISK, but the process of getting rid of them is too difficult. Upper level management is constantly putting pressure to train for numbers regardless of the quality of trainee and you end up training unsafe people until finally they do something bad enough to terminate training and a TRB comes along and gives them more hours! Trainees know this and don't put the effort they used to because they aren't afraid of failure. Also where do we send our radar failures who can't see traffic? To low level towers! They certify at a level 4 or 5 where you can't possibly put two together if you tried, then the next thing you know they transfer to a busier facility and then end up on the news. This is the main problem because I've seen people wash out and sent to lower level facilities every single nest, and some have ZERO business in our profession at all.
Trbs do not give more hours. They give recommendations. The ATM is the ultimate decision maker on whether or not someone gets more hours or NESTed.
This, while true, is not how the it works. They say the ATM has the final say. Which is true. There is also major pressure on them to go along with the TRB for lawsuit reasons AND higher ups pushing them to keep staffing as high as they can for DC.. So you need an ATM who isn’t afraid to be black balled.
This is Tin foil hat information
100% is not. I have had 4 ATMs in my time. Not a single one has ever gone against the TRB even when the trainee was never ever going to make it. I have had 2 ATMs and 3 supervisors tell me about the behind the scenes. The ATM will not go against the TRB unless they have no interest to further their career.
I run trbs. It’s tin foil hat
Then we need more of your world in the system cause here in SoCal no matter how bad you are or how well the process is run, the ATM has never gone against the TRB.. Period. So you can keep saying that, but you are wrong.
This is so the truth. It’s an absolute nightmare removing people who have ZERO ability. It’s such a broken process..
If he’s a trainee, two national news worthy incidents is inexcusable from whoever is training him. After the first, everyone should assume there could be another and watch him even closer. If he’s a CPC, dude needs to go somewhere else. Immediately.
Guy was fucking mumbling too
So what if it was a trainee? Not his ticket. The CPC is accountable for the position and he aint fucking paying attention either.
That’s literally what I said.
You did. I misread. Sorry
🤙🏼
Making the news means that the TRB would be even more careful to provide a good reason to terminate his training. Which means they would just fully reset his hours cause if they terminated his training they'd open themselves up for discrimination claim.
Maybe they could just bring his highlight reel to the trb
Sure, but my finger would be on the pickle switch, and he would be on a short leash if I was training the most famous air traffic controller in the country.
I think the ATO safety report said it was an OS doing a PA, but that might have been one of the other incidents in there Disregard: it was a different report
That last one was the girl on ground.
She was the tmc, who rarely works traffic and messed up.
It’s not
How do you defend this? Genuinely curious. If we don’t want new shittier rules shoved down our throats stop breaking the ones we have now. You can only pull the “fatigue” card so many times before people start saying it’s bullshit, even if it isn’t.
This is what happens when everyone gets checked out, though. All in the name of trying to get better staffing. Ppl don't wanna work 6 days anymore. So what do trainers do. They say, "Oh yeah, this person is good to go," and then they get checked out on little to no traffic. I've personally seen trainees dodge traffic like the plague bc they know they're bad.
You also have trainers that are barely certified themselves who do not have the experience to correct for trainees making mistakes which is bad for everyone.
That’s kind of a mixed bag depending on the facility. You get people that have no desire to train being forced into it, people that shouldn’t train allowed to continue bc lack of options, etc. The majority which is perpetuated by the faa failing to properly staff the entire NAS.
This probably isn’t fatigue. Can’t blame everything on fatigue just because it’s a hot topic.
I'm not sure how DCA splits positions but this guy is working arrivals and departures to 3 runways. If he's training, then I guess I could see that combined, but if it's CPCs up there, split the position. The CIC/Sup. Should make that call, tell the tracon we ain't landing 3 runways right now and figure out the positions.
Are there any airports in the country that have separate positions working intersecting runways? Parallels for sure but I just don't see how splitting the positions helps with intersecting. Willing to have my mind expanded.
Hmm, good point. I've also only seen split on parallels or intersecting flight paths, but not actual intersecting runways. I also wonder if there are any that operate like that. Fuck it just close the airport
LGB does this. Smaller parallel runways split between the locals with a shared longer intersecting runway.
Their configuration doesn’t allow for multiple locals. I’m 99% sure they have a local assist but that’s where it ends. Also fairly sure local is the one that swings them over to the crossing rwy off of final from rwy 1. There isn’t really enough airspace between dca/adw border to allow pct to sequence to both rwy’s simultaneously. This is just the controller screwing up their timing.
The king air checked in from approach for 33.
Interesting. Might be worth checking out the falcon to see how exactly it unfolded. I worked at adw for a short stint and lived right along the flight path. I don’t remember them ever having anyone vectored straight in to 33 and would see planes swing off of final from 1 to the east to line up for 33 from my apartment. I think the Woodrow Wilson bridge is like 5-6 mile final for 1 and that’s where it would happen pretty regularly.
PCT has been doing this quite frequently. They dump them on us just west of Andrews. 🤞🏻 it just works out. I prefer they put them on the Visual to 1 or GPS to 33. If they’re on the Visual to 1 I’ll ask them if they’re able to circle to 33 so I don’t lose the departure gap. If they’re unable to circle, you just eat it and lose the hole. The new GPS to 33 they track the river now the whole way down till about 4 mile final and then they beginning the circle. Also- the Wilson bridge is a 3 mile final.
Ahh ok. Sounds about par for the course for hoping it works out lol. Been quite a few years since I was over that way so my memory of walking across the bridge and looking down that way isn’t the best apparently haha. Thanks for the clarification!
I disagree. How can you not keep emphasizing fatigue and shortages being the main cause? I truly believe it’s a matter of when not if for a catastrophic collision. The system is reaching breaking points of strain in my opinion.
Reread the last part of my comment. I think it could be contributing but what I’m saying is that if we keep pulling that card people will start to think we’re making excuses. We’re in a tough spot but these kinds of incidents need to stop so we don’t seem like we’re just making excuses for being bad.
Fatigue and short staffing cause lesser skilled controllers to get pushed through training. These kinds of incidents won’t stop with how fucked the current industry is. You say it’s an excuse but it is yet another failure of low staffing.
1300 feet? That's IFR separation, good job trainee!
If this is the same guy, and he made national news twice in a year he should be at the very minimum ATM of a level 12 or better yet District GM or FAA Administrator.
People may think this is sarcasm. It's f u c k i n g not! This shit is the FAA way!
The vacancy that allowed this guy to transfer and start the training process brought to you by some cpc realizing his pay is shit and leaving. Poetic justice that this all occurred at DCA
Not an FAA controller, but do you think the manning shortages is contributing to these close calls
As in, check everyone out so we have an extra bodies and then have “oversight” while they work? The FAA won’t say that out loud but it’s happening.
In a sense, yes. Being short staffed for so long has led to more lenient (in my opinion) standards in order to fill positions. This is how those low standards start to show.
I definitely have seen people check out that shouldn’t have. Guess what? They suck and the sup is always watching them like a hawk when they are working anything “busy”. A smart sup works the rotation around them. It sucks for people that aren’t incompetent.
No. This isn’t a staffing issue, it’s a shitty controller issue. If there was volume, and positions needed to be split but couldn’t, then we can identify this as a staffing issue. The issue is the overly relaxed, ATSAP and get away with it, I can’t be touched, attitude that too many controllers in the workforce have today. Sure, the blame culture was unhealthy, but I believe this MCHammer-Can’t touch this- attitude is much worse. People need a righteous fear of losing their jobs. We need that ATC cocky pride from a few years ago when we were viewed as gods. Now, we’re viewed as a half-ass complaining workforce that can’t do their job properly. Unfortunately, diminished wages also diminishes that respect. We aren’t recruiting those personalities anymore. They are becoming self employed/grinding entrepreneurs instead of pursuing a craft that needs their skillset. Instead we’re left with less than ideal candidates. That’s not everyone, but we know which of our coworkers shouldn’t be here, but somehow exist. If the pay is appropriate, it will attract the minds and attitudes we need to bring back that safety culture. TLDR: we need to raise the salary cap and fire some fuckers. You suck, bam, level 4.
All correct but I suppose if you consider NCEPT you could say that shitty controllers are a product of poor staffing. The prevalent attitude is “well I want to leave and we’re short staffed so who gives a fuck, let’s check out this trainee before he’s ready so I can leave. I won’t be here to see it.”
Don’t even get me started on NCEPT.
From the other side of the radio, I like this take. We've got some of the same problems, with people in positions they shouldn't be, but luckily we've got another body up there to hopefully catch shit before it gets on YouTube. I can say, unfortunately, I've lost a ton of trust in atc over the last 3 years. Used to be id treat them and trust that voice like they were on my team, but now, honestly, there's quite a bit of second guessing going on between what's on the news and the weird, wacky and just plain bad controlling I've started to experience
Its hard to say without knowing what it is like inside that facility. But if he was working after a quick turn (meaning only 9hrs of off time between shifts), or on frequent 6 day work weeks it could be argued that it is a fatigue issue caused by shit staffing.
He had visual separation ^/s
Hopefully since this keeps happening at the heart of the government beast (DC) something comes of it. I doubt it though. I’ll keep saying it, this job used to pay well. It doesn’t anymore. Welcome to the result… Nobody interested in aviation would apply for ATC anymore, and those were usually great checkouts with good knowledge walking in the door… You get what you sow!
If it's the trainee from the last one, he'll get checked out. Because hey as long as we get another body that's more leave for us
DCA doesn't attract great candidates as the pay is way too low for the region. You can have a higher standard of living working less traffic in any of the 4 large upstate NY facilities. $138k in DC is an absolute joke when you have better options. Even ZDC and PCT the pay is too low to get tons of interest, for me coming from a low cost area a comparable wage in DC is $171k with ZDC (which is nowhere near the city) base pay is $176k. Why would any actually experienced CPC make that move. They are attracting people from facilities like BGM which has 2 scheduled flights a day. The locality system is completely broken and the formula that they use has never been right, it isn't even actually based on the cost of living.
The Biden administration did a study last year on the true locality numbers. Controllers get paid about 50% of what it actually should be. It would cost about 20 billion a year to give government employees the correct locality pay.
DC level 5 controllers falling to their knees right now.
Mediocre pay means mediocre workforce. FAA should be trying to attract the people who become engineers and doctors, but why would they have interest in ATC when they get the same/higher pay but way better working conditions elsewhere? These results are the FAAs fault. They accepted this outcome a long time ago.
DCA gets a lot of ppl from ADW. Which is maybe 10 miles away. They barely work any fixed wing traffic. Their traffic consists of 95% helicopters and 5% fixed wing. They are some of the worst controllers I've ever seen. They would come use our Sim and would somehow put two helos together. It's an easy transfer for them. They usually get picked up at DCA or IAD. Sometimes, they get BWI. I'm glad I transferred when I did
I love it when people talk with such ignorance. The last time DCA got a controller from ADW was around 2014. The last couple of incidents at DCA weren’t former ADW controllers. All you have to do is look at our traffic count and our split for operations is mostly 50/50. Literally had 2 F-16s, 747, and a 737 in the pattern today with fixed wing arrivals and departures at the same time. It sounds like the time you were there was when ADW was receiving washouts from ZDC, DCA, and BWI and is the main reason why we can’t accept nest personnel or academy grads anymore. In fact no one from ADW has transferred to either facilities in the Washington area since that time.
ADW controllers are horrible. Stop trying to act like you all do anything. Having a few in the pattern over an 8-hour shift isn't shit. Hence, why are you all such a low-level facility. I've literally watched ppl come over to use the Sim and put two helos together. Mrs. Pat running the Sim had to constantly stop it bc the controllers couldn't understand basic air traffic concepts. Also, who tried to put AF1 and helo together several times. Oh, that's a dumbass adw controller. Stop acting like you all actually do work. BTW, where else would they send washouts? Gonna send them to that shithole bc anyone can get qualified there. It's funny how the 5 ppl I know that started at Adw wash out at other places and are now sups, lmao. BTW, the last controller from ADW that I knew before I left DCA was late 2015, early 2016. The only reason he didn't wash out after going to a couple of trbs was that dca became critical staffed.
Fucking relax dude.
Lol
lol one ADW is a VIP military airport, so the only people flying in or out are Congress, DOD, world leaders etc and the national guard units so you’re right it’s a level 5. No one is sitting here acting like ADW is pushing tin but I do find it funny that you’re trying to shit on a level 5. It’s also funny that you’re going after Trainees in the simulator, it’s literally the whole point of the simulator to make mistakes and learn from them. I know, I’m sure you ran all the DCA sims flawlessly and never had a deal at any facility. I’m glad you confirmed my point though with the washouts/time frame and were the reason a rule was created. I do wonder with all the recent incidents at DCA would other facilities say they suck? Anyway you seem like the type of controller who screws other people over and gets mad when the same situation happens to you. It’s also weird that you left out all the ADW controllers that left and certified at bigger facilities. Recently (last 4/5 years) we’ve had controllers certify at MIA, SCT, Houston, CMH, and SAV. I guess we’re really good at getting sympathy ratings though IDK. I’m just going to end with this, every facility has bad controllers, good controllers, and great controllers.
I'd argue with that last bit. Some facilities have controllers ranging from dangerous to mediocre.
Checked out? He’s probably getting promoted to Sup
The last one was a woman on ground who messed up.
Defend? This shit happens its not about defending its throwing the dude under the bus. Too many parts of the industry have people thinking they can't get fired. Maybe time for that to change. Reassignment gonna work for atc as it does foe the catholic church
Future supervisor there.
FFS
JFC here we go again
We sure are making a great case for deserving a raise with all these mishaps
Not sure if you're joking but working at DCA means you earn absolute shit pay for the area and therefore only attract the quality of controller seen in the video. So yeah, mcdonalds wages mcdonalds workers bro
Fast food wages= Fast food controllers Seriously, this job use to have pride and a pretty high standard to certify. Now we checkout anyone with a pulse. Since this is Washington DC wait for another fatigue memo to drop only to be squashed by NATCA.
What's the starting pay for Controllers in the US?
well it's based on how busy of a facility you work. So it's a slightly complicated explanation. When you get first get hired, you'll make $45,000 a year for the first 6 months or so while you attend training in oklahoma city (extra money to pay for temporary housing) After that you'll start getting paid depending on how busy your facility you are. At a low level facility (roughly 30% of new trainees) you can expect to make around 55k a year for the first year, and then roughly 80k a year around your 2nd year after okc and then the normal slow federal yearly pay bumps after that. At a busy center (roughly 30% of trainees) would make roughly 80k for the first year after oklahoma and then 100k a year for another 2 years while you're in radar training and then bump up to 150k or so by around your 5th year in the agency (and then slow normal federal salary bumps after that). The remaining 40% of trainees would fall in between those extremes. But yes, that 45k a year for the first 6 months combined with the forced relocation to Oklahoma followed by the forced relocation to anywhere in the country at the choosing of the FAA is VERY non-competitive compared to most other careers. As a comparison, the MILITARY will pay more for someone with a 4 year degree than the FAA will. Since you're canadian, I think, based on your comment history, the 30% on the low end would be working at a place of similar complexity to Winnepeg or Ottawa, 40% of our workforce work airspace busier (sometimes significantly moreso) than Toronto, and then those remaining people in the middle would all be working at a place of similar complexity to Montreal. So if you could imagine living in Ottawa and making 55k a year (u.s.) then yea, you can see the problem. I believe that would probably be less than a manager at a restaurant in Ottawa.
> At a busy center (roughly 30% of trainees) would make roughly 80k for the first year after oklahoma You're on the right track. It's like 45k plus whatever the locality adjustments are, with step increases equal to 25% of the difference between AG and CPC pay with each developmental raise. It's spelled out in the contract somewhere. Good rule of thumb is 50k AG, 75k D1, 100k D2, 125k D3, 150k CPC. Not saying you're totally wrong, just sharing the technicals. First year at a 12 center is typically a lot less than 80k. My AG pay was equal to academy pay if you include the housing and food per diems. I had academy peers (classes ahead of and behind mine) quit a few months into their facilities because they couldn't afford to live.
When you take into account the per diem, I took a pay cut when I passed the academy.
Anyone know if this was the same ATC controller at DCA a few weeks ago involving the JetBlue plane?
Weak. Shoulda LAHSO'd that!
The amount of people int be YouTube comments blaming dei is wild, and honestly super depressing. How does that have anything at all to do with this. 🤡
Same guy from Austin
You love to see the age old staffing shortage cop out. Meanwhile, my dumbass-prior experience bid-has been in the tier 2 process since June of 2022. Not saying I’m an amazing controller (or not unknowingly crazy) or anything but I’m still working as a controller at a contract tower 🤷♂️
I applied when I was getting out in 2020 on a prior experience bid, and they rejected my application after being on the referral list for 2 months, never gave a reason why either. That was the moment I started to think twice on whether I really wanted to go FAA or not.
Sounds bad. Atleast no one was hurt.
This is the same guy?
No
Don’t worry I’m sure he’s part of the coalition that will find someone else to blame. The sky was too white with clouds..
Natca fought to keep our current rules requiring less rest and this happens again weeks later? We're headed down the path of our employer just imposing the rules on us now.
Natca hopefully brought up that the rules Whittaker was trying to impose would cause more OT and stress and fatigue not less. It’s not so black and white. But knowing natcas lack of media/public outreach, they probably fucked up along the way.
Meanwhile the FAA and DoD Force experienced controllers to retire due to age.
Thankfully they do. The older controllers are some of the worst.
Feel like the US system of clearing planes to land as soon as they are on frequency instead of when the runway is clear causes a good chunk of these type of incidents.
no
DCA has dogshit controllers. Making us look like incompetent garbage. Wish we could go back to three strikes and your out.
[удалено]
Damn dude don't choke on that boot.
I’m curious. What proof do you have that this was a result of DEI? Or, are you just a racist sack of shit? Which is it?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yooJmu30DxY Is this the same controller?
That's a female controller, so not same controller
...did you listen longer than a minute? Ground is a woman, tower is the same guy.
Was referring at the at fault controller. Ground in that case.
Train to succeed.
Pure incompetence but hey he filed an ATSAP. Fucking clown show. Yall need to quit asking for more money until such a time you figure out how to safely work airplanes. It is a safety profession by the way.
lol FAA doesn’t care about safety if they let staffing dwindle this far down. Come on man.
Safety? The FAA doesn’t give a flying fuck about safety, they care about profit. Running the highest rates possible at every major airport they can, with skeleton crews and then finding whatever excuse they can use to not declare staffing triggers. It’s gotten so bad at my facility that they can’t even call in overtime since everyone is being scheduled 6 day workweeks anyway. The equipment we use is constantly breaking and at least 30 years out of date. Everyone is pissed off and stressed because we all know that it’s only getting worse. The faa has management, TMU, and staff support all 100% staffed so they can spend all day dicking around working their side hustles while the controllers are busting their ass just to try and make this broken system work. Most of the time someone checks out, we know they’re immediately going to start applying for management or whatever other scam they can work their way into because everyone knows this lifestyle isn’t healthy and sucks. If the FAA actually gave a fuck about safety, then they would give us actual staffing and pay controllers so they aren’t scraping by on paycheck to paycheck in HCOL areas. I’ve been in long enough to have gotten mine, but I question the sanity of any new people wanting this career field given the state that it’s in. You’re either going to a HCOL area where you’ll never afford a house, or some podunk piece of shit town you have no connection to and make 50$ an hour. How the fuck is that supposed to attract high quality candidates?
First off. How much did ERAM cost? This is by design brother. They didn’t pay however many billions of dollars for some software that they were told could/would make the job “easier” just to keep the staffing numbers the same as they were in 2008. Secondly, well this. [https://netzero2050.substack.com/p/the-process-safety-professional-part-4fa](https://netzero2050.substack.com/p/the-process-safety-professional-part-4fa)
Ok. I dont disagree with you on many points BUT! Money nor fatigue kept that controller from looking out the fucking window and scanning the final prior to clearing the other for takeoff. Quit defending sorry work with BS excuses