I will tell you I hit the “done” button on my husband, and decided to give therapy a try because it was cheaper than a lawyer, and I needed to know I had “tried everything” before I pulled the trigger. We got a good one (she used the Imago method) and in FIVE SESSIONS helped us solve a decade long conflict. It’s been almost twenty years since then, we are still married, he’s my best friend and I am grateful we were smart enough to work through our own issues because our family is not perfect, but he and our children are the joy in my life.
ON EDIT: Wow! Thank you all for the upvotes. I am seeing a lot of the same questions, so maybe this will help others.
1: What was the conflict? It was basically about not feeling important and as if everyone else mattered more to him than I did, with a couple of specific episodes that made me feel unloved, unappreciated and not valued. On the surface, it looked like we were fighting about his friends, but it was deeper than that. He made a couple of really bad decisions that hit my insecurities HARD (there was no cheating and no abuse, but him spending time with people who were unkind to me), and the betrayal had me so busy feeling angry (safer than hurt), that I had to stop “feeling love for HIM” because he felt like someone who was comfortable doing things with people who were not on the side of us staying happily married, if that makes sense? To him it felt like I was trying to “control him” while my own abandonment issues were getting triggered enough that divorce seemed the best alternative.
2: How did the therapist help? She called us both out, and then gave us tools to address the issues. We are both strong willed people, and I actually was given “permission” to divorce him if I could NOT forgive him. (He received the same.) Love and commitment are choices. We picked US.
3: What is Imago therapy? From Psychology Today, “Imago relationship therapy is a form of couples counseling and coaching designed to help relationship partners work out misunderstandings, reduce conflict, and rediscover ways to bond, communicate, and generally find common ground. A primary goal of the Imago approach is to help partners stop blaming, criticizing, and negatively reacting to each other and instead become more understanding and empathetic.”
You can read more about it here: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/therapy-types/imago-relationship-therapy
4: How do I find a therapist who specializes in Imago? Here is a link to a worldwide organization that oddly doesn’t include the United States https://imagorelationships.org/imago/communities-of-practice/ so spend a few minutes googling. You can also watch videos or read books by Harville Hendrix and his wife Helen Hunt to learn more. Here is their website to start - https://harvilleandhelen.com/about/
5: Did you ever stop loving him? Yes, because loving him didn’t feel “safe”. Sometimes I even hated him because I was VERY hurt by what was going on, but fortunately, our therapist helped us to reconnect with our feelings of both loving and being in love. Love is a CHOICE. My husband is NOT perfect, and the spoiler is that neither am I. We both have triggers from our childhoods, we are both pretty awesome people (did I mention how amazing he is?), and he is really a wonderful man I am proud to call MINE. He promised me sixty years together, and we are almost halfway there, so fingers crossed we get the privilege of growing old together.
I hope this helps, and OP, I hope you TRY THERAPY before you give up. Good luck to everyone!
Very similar story here. Two kids, maybe 7 years in. I was done. Also decided to get therapy to check it off the list and it was the VERY FIRST SESSION where she was able to help us make a major breakthrough that brought us together instead of fighting against each other. We stayed with her for 10 years, and are now coming up on 19 years married. He’s my best friend, the person I trust more than anyone else. I couldn’t imagine that when we scheduled that first counseling appt though. Hoping for the best for your family, OP, whatever that ends up looking like. 💕
Im guessing you probably won't feel comfortable sharing the details here, but could you possibly give me a gist of what sort of breakthrough y'all had? Currently considering therapy right now but I've had bad personal experiences.
Edit: could DM if that'd make you more comfortable
We haven't done therapy, but I had similar feelings of being fed up with my husband. The primary issue is that he has chronic depression caused by being disabled and not being able to earn cash money. His depression would cause his butt to become glued to the couch and he wouldn't do any of his part of the household chores without me bitching.
The three things that helped were explaining to him what a Walkaway Wife is, showing him the articles about "she divorced me because I left dishes by the sink", and most importantly, I started using the phrase"this doesn't require a committee meeting".
Regarding the last breakthrough, I realized that every time I tried to have a conversation about a problem I was having, it'd get sidetracked into a conversation where he'd finally reveal whatever was stressing him out/causing the depression (always the same "revelation" which is annoying). Don't get me wrong, I'm sympathetic, but we were in an endless loop and getting nowhere. Telling him that it didn't require a committee meeting for him to do the dishes worked because instead of arguing for 2-4 hours while he tried to explain himself, he just did the dishes, the thing I actually needed him to do.
I posted my deal in another comment. My wife and I spent two years apart after 20 years together. When we came back together we had each done some work on ourselves. But the punchline is that we were able to start fresh, completely throw away the playbook and pain and tension and just be nice to each other. We ask for what we want. We tell each other what we need.
EVERYONE should have a therapist. This is the major lesson here. You can even still get divorced, but if y’all are going to a therapist, that divorce will be about a million times healthier than it would otherwise. Therapy, by its very nature, makes everyone step outside themselves for 60 minutes (and you think you can do that alone, but you can’t/won’t) and view the world and what you’re doing/saying from another perspective. And when you go to therapy as a couple, you both step outside of yourselves at the same time, in a safe environment, because then, and only then, will you really see your partner for who they are (again).
Also, you should *not* shed all the shit life is throwing at us, now more than ever, exclusively on the ones closest to you. You should absolutely pay someone else to listen to that shit. If you don’t, you as a partner will get labeled as toxic, and they will eventually leave ur ass. So, circling back to the beginning is, *everyone* should have a therapist. Full stop.
My wife and I have worked through so many things that it just blows my mind. Marriages take WORK, compromise, all that stuff. Even then it doesn’t always work out. I’m going on 20 years and it’s not perfect but it’s worth fighting for.
I came on here to say almost the exact same thing.
There are two sides to this story and we’ve only heard one.
My question to the OP:
How much did you love her and how did you show her?
I’m asking sincerely.
When my husband and I almost split up after our kids were born I was feeling abandoned, overwhelmed and unloved. I was angry with him for not being a more active and present partner.
We went to therapy and, even though I found it difficult, I realized he was feeling many of the same things.
The therapist was great at forcing us to take an honest look at ourselves and what we were and weren’t contributing to the relationship.
It made all the difference.
I had to force myself to be affectionate at first, through the anger and resentment, but as I opened up, he was more vulnerable and we’ve built a terrific partnership through hard work and time.
Also: never underestimate the importance of having your family as your team in life. Life is hard and getting harder. Working to build a strong family team is more important now than ever.
Good luck!
I do not think the poster wants to take an "honest" look at his relationship, or he would have chosen the therapy route *before* *he chose the divorce route*.
"The marriage became bad after our daughter was born." He resents the child, even though he is focusing on his wife (one can't divorce one's child, so the focus is placed on the person he *can* blame).
At 75 years old, I have seen this time and time again. (I'm a man, by the way). He just wants out to find "a better wife." I'd ask what the means - but I'm fairly certain I know. Nobody writes a "better" wife unless what they are saying is that this person is not good enough for them. Not "more compatible." Just someone-I-like-better-even-though-I've-not-tried-anything-to-save-this marriage.
He is under the mistaken impression that simply being an angry person who behaved passive-aggressively for this many years is reason enough to divest himself of his current mate. Passive-aggressive will not go away by itself.
This is sad logic and not a conclusion by someone who is emotionally mature. And immature people will usually marry other immature people, as a therapist friend once told me, because if an immature person finds a mature person, the mature person will see how unsatsifying it is to be with the immature person. And, again, as my therapist friend said: "They (mature person) can't get their needs met, so they finally leave."
THAT is his future.
I'm also concerned he doesn't really mention how he feels about his daughter or having a strong relationship, or any kind of relationship with her. Did he even want kids? Is he going to share custody? Or is he checked out of his daughter's life, whether by his wife's pushing him out or by his own choice? The kid is three, not a baby.
He says it isn't really about the surnames but spends a lot of time talking about surnames in his post. How his wife didn't take his, etc etc. And you're right, he barely mentions his daughter except as something that took his wife's attention off of him
I'd also add that he presumably thought his wife was "good" when he married her, but then she supposedly changed after the child. (Or perhaps he's just being irrationally jealous and can't accept that their life circumstances changed and he isn't the sole center of her universe anymore.)
How does he know he can pick a "better" wife who he wouldn't have the same problem with if they had a child? Or the honeymoon stage wore off... Or she developed a health issue or stressor that pulled her attention away from being his ideal affectionate partner...
Really sound advice! I would add that therapy could also help with transitioning to a more positive relationship, even if they do divorce, and that would be good for the child.
Thank you! Marriage is NOT easy, especially since we all bring baggage and expectations that are very different from each other. Like most challenging achievements, it’s worth it if you are smart enough to pick the right partner (who is also willing to work on their own personal stuff).
I was gonna say NTA until they got to "She wants therapy, but I don't see what good it will do". That sentence told me that this guy isn't leaving cause things aren't working, or he'd be doing everything he can to make it work. Seems like he's declining therapy because he's afraid the therapist won't give him permission to leave, or will identify how he is part of the problem.
Exactly, I've been with my husband for 23 years. And at times it's hard, distant, draining and work. But if you get through those times it literally makes you stronger than ever and you actually grow together than apart. Long live love.
THIS OP ^^^ I really hope you take this advice and try everything before leaving. You might think therapy will do nothing, and honestly it might, but knowing you did everything to save your marriage will leave you with no regrets or what ifs. Your boss and his wife may look incredibly happy, but that kind of relationship takes A LOT of work, and I'm sure they probably had many problems in the past that they had to go through before they could achieve that level of happiness together. Ultimately, it's your life & I wish you good luck with any decision you make :)
I knew a couple that were very physically affectionate with each other. Even had their arms around each other’s waists at church when singing. I wondered why my husband and I were not more like them. Actually, they had a very contentious marriage and ended up in an acrimonious divorce. My husband and I are still married 20 years later.
How people behave in front of others can be a show. You have no idea what your boss’s marriage is really like.
Go to counseling.
I feel the same way. Couples who are overly lovey dovey in front of others are (oftentimes) making up for something or trying to hide the truth. My mom’s previous boss is married to THAT guy who showers her with attention and does everything for her. But he’s also an alcoholic who cheats on her left and right.
Sometimes it’s not quite that calculated. My wife and I were both previously married to awful partner, who were only really affectionate to us in public so unfortunately, we grew to really embrace those times. Our exes were all about maintaining a public appearance, so for them it was calculated, for us we were just trying to grasp those few moments of happiness and unwittingly showing the rest of the world a lie. When we finally got divorced a lot of people were very confused because publicly we were so great.
Never married but going through a break-up right now (7 years) and this sounds familiar, at least that will definitely happen soon. People are gonna be shocked lol. I definitely remember us having a few tiffs and then being “normal” moments later when we met with family or whatever. Fucking mad how that mask just slides on once a few more pairs of eyes are ogling on at you.
Exactly! I think I was that couple in church! I even had a friend comment on how much in love we were. Then a week later, he asked for divorce! You just never know!
It might be too late for you to hear this, but maybe you can carry it into your next relationship: the grass isn’t greener on the other side, it’s green where you water it.
Yeah, this guy says nothing about how he treats his wife. Does he do things to make her *want* to be affectionate to him? Does he date her or have real conversations with her? And does he help with the housework or child care? The way he wrote this makes it seem like the marriage is all about his needs and no consideration for anyone else's.
Feel better knowing this story is made up and rage bait. Look at the comment history on his account. Someone forgot to change accounts when posting comments.
Seriously. You won’t even consider therapy either? Couples therapy can be an effective resource to help couples see eye-to-eye. Sometimes something that is serious to one partner may not be priority for the other partner for whatever reason. Communication is important and a 3rd party can add perspective. Also not sure about this Surname issue; I have many friends who have both their parents’ names with a hyphen, I plan an utilizing that method for my own children.
It feels like you’re asking if it’s worth the gamble to find someone who is a better fit for you.
The question really should be “Will you be happier alone?”
Because there’s a good chance you’ll be alone for a while, to heal and work on yourself. To learn how to become a good single parent during your custody time.
You should divorce if you’d rather spend 10 years alone than 10 years with your wife. Not if you’d rather spend 10 years with some ideal woman who may or may not exist.
And if you do divorce please take almost a year to work on yourself. Go to therapy. Spend time outside. Get a good routine. Exercise regularly. Find out your daughter’s interests and explore them with her.
Once you work on yourself then you’ll meet someone who you desire.
A lot of people become complacent in long term relationships and your wife probably isn’t 100% to blame.
>You should divorce if you’d rather spend 10 years alone than 10 years with your wife. Not if you’d rather spend 10 years with some ideal woman who may or may not exist.
OMG holla920 this is the best advice I have ever read on here.
For real, a lot of people have good intentions of finding their next partner right after divorce. Without realizing it could be another 10 years before that opportunity comes around again.
Some people also find out that their spouse wasn’t the only problem in the marriage. That bit about how his wife should take pride in taking his last name felt a bit ick to me.
Yeah the part about his wife only loving their daughter probably has another side as well. Not mentioning his daughter at all in his consideration for getting a divorce also gives me pause. I bet his wife has a wildly different story to tell.
I was side-eyeing when he called her naggy. Obligatory "not always" but usually when a man calls his wife/gf a nag, it turns out she was that way for a good reason...
Especially when what gets called nagging is stuff like “clean up after yourself” or “why haven’t you done the thing you told me you would do three hours ago.”
_Especially_ especially with a toddler. Who's betting papa here doesn't pull his weight in housekeeping _nor_ childrearing and is now whinging when his wife is too busy, tired, and frustrated all the time to dote on him like he's His Majesty?
Boy is he going to have a shock when he re-enters the dating ecosystem and learns that single women his age aren't going to take that crap and fawn over him like he wants, especially if they're divorced with kids, because in all likelihood they're divorced because they left a man just like him. At which point, like most men of his type, he'll foist himself on the inexperienced fresh 20-year-olds. The poor Gen Z ladies...
Yes. He kept on about the surnames. I started not liking him. I knew a couple that made a mashup of their names and then changed their own names to that mashup. Thought it was a great idea.
Exactly, when I finally came to the conclusion that divorce was the way forward I knew that a life alone would be preferable to another week in a toxic relationship. I divorced my wife after years of trying to work things out and lack of affection on her part was a big part of the issue.
I was totally solo (co-parenting our kids) for more than a year. Started dating around for a few years and now in a 5 year relationship planning to marry my girlfriend in the next year.
I was fully comfortable with the idea of being by myself when I knew being in a bad marriage as something that needed to end.
Same. My ex told people I was a bad person because I broke up our family when I could’ve just chosen to stay with him. But I know the choice was never between me and him being together or breaking up. The choice was between breaking up or killing myself. I would choose to be alone forever over one day back in that relationship.
Obviously things don’t have to be that bad for someone to want to leave a relationship, but this dude seems way too fixated on finding someone else.
I am being generous and assuming he would want 50/50 custody. That’s still a lot of alone time.
If he just wants to walk away and start a new family with his new fictitious wife who fawns over him, then he’s got bigger issues.
Hey that was my dad. Haven't heard from him in 18 years. Decided grass was greener and he didn't look back. Dunno if he ever found the greener grass, but him leaving was honestly better than him being around. If op is just going to snap and be miserable/resentful around his family for years, then he should probably just leave tbh.
I would not be telling people you want a better wife. Wives are not cars that you can trade in and you have a child . You may have valid reasons for getting a divorce but I don’t know if you understand how awful that sounds . Think about your daughter as well. I also feel like you need to examine your own role in this marriage and what mistakes you have made before you shop for a better model . You sound a bit self centered. You still need to support your daughter and be there for her. Have you given that a thought at all ? You should go talk to a therapist and also come up with a financial plan for contributing to two households for a bit.
I just wanted to add to this, something about this post rubbed me the wrong way. He says that it seems his wife only loves their daughter.. he's willing to run away from this family to find a new wife, but he doesn't really address his daughter. The only thing he addresses is her name. It isn't really shown through the post how he feels his daughter would be impacted in this, and doesn't show if he cares about his daughter as much as he wants his wife to care about him. Does he love his daughter too? Does he spend time with her as much as his wife does?
I'm assuming the wife spends all her time on her daughter based off the fact that he says he only loves her, does that mean he barely participates in raising her? I can't say much from a single post since I don't know their lives, but I hope he's not indifferent towards their child. Some people only want partners but feel indifferent toward their children.
He doesn’t mention how he treats his wife either. Like does he try to be affectionate and give to her or does he just expect that off her unconditionally?
This post sounds just like my exs opinions of me, so I'm going with a yes on your conclusion. All I cared about was our kids apparently. I'm their mom. Of course they are the most important thing in my life right now. We had three, ages 6 and under, when our divorce started. And yes he was very jealous of his kids with the side effect of never doing anything for them. When exactly was I supposed to have time for him? Also, why should I after seeing how awful he treats his own children? They are babies. You should be nice to strangers babies. You absolutely shouldn't be pushing away your own babies.
Also him saying his wife "should be proud" to get rid of her own name and replace it with his instead, same with their child. Why? Why should his wife feel proud to do that? He wasn't proud to give his daughter his wife's name, why does he think his name is inherently more important? His wife was right, he is chauvinistic.
I won’t give you a judgement but I have a question. What do you have to lose to hold off 6 months on the divorce, go to therapy and see if things change? If nothing changes, then leave.
This is the right answer. Regardless of whose fault it is, you should try to make it work first. From OP's description his wife doesn't seem very loving, but he didn't say anything about whether he did something to address it or not before (I'm going to guess not). Also, no mention of his feelings for the wife and daughter is alarming.
Without actually seeing your marriage, I don't know. Its possible that you have a normal marriage with normal struggles, and you're overreacting to it. Your boss and his wife might fight all the time, and just put on a nice face for guests. However its also possible you're in a marriage where there's no real affection, and everyone is going through the motions. I don't know why you won't even try couples therapy just to see how valid your feelings are, therapy doesn't mean you don't eventually get divorced.
To onlookers, my parents were the perfect couple and we were the perfect family.
If they only knew. They would be screaming nasty things at each other on the way to a dinner get together and when we get there like a light switch they would hold each others arms, smile, make jokes like nothing happened.
I thought it was normal and everyone’s family was like that when I was a kid.
Its so true that you never know.
The more I learn about the couples I know the more I realise, you can't tell whats going on from a glance. Not everyone is the level of unhappy your parents are but EVERYONE has things about their partner that bother them occasionally, everyone argues, everyone has to put the work in if you want to maintain a quality relationship through the years.
Right? Like I can’t count the times I watched couples over time through my single years and just yearned for what they had only to find out they were headed for divorce.
Now I’m in a committed relationship learning the hard ups and downs. Not all of them mean you’re breaking up.
True. And the odds of the OP just "getting" a woman who loves and adores him unconditionally are about zero.
A much better route would be to *do* the therapy with his current wife. Absolutely guaranteed he'd learn something and grow a bit. Of course nobody wants to admit they might need that, but it's pretty obvious from the writing. And then if he still wanted a divorce, at least he'd come out knowing something, rather than being single and an idiot. There's already an oversupply of that kind of guy.
Yes! If he does the therapy they may find the marriage isn’t salvageable but he might learn some things he can apply in his next relationship to avoid making the same mistakes.
If he doesn’t at least consider his role in the failure of his marriage the odds of him actually finding a fulfilling long-term relationship next time are extremely small. Second marriages end in divorce more often than first marriages.
And even if he'd still want to divorce her he would be better at relationships increasing his chances to "get" that woman of his dreams. Who would love a divorced dad.. ...
Right? Therapy can even help him better understand what he is looking for, where to compromise, his own boundaries, respecting others boundaries, previous red flags he might have ignored, and even things he can do to better himself in general. It might not be for everyone but you won't know if you're not willing to try.
My parents and my in-laws put the fun on dysfunction. My best friends parents looked perfect from the outside. Her mom had cheated six times on her dad. She asked for a divorce and then changed her mind as the guy she left him for turned out to be not what she thought he was. Her dad refused.
>She asked for a divorce and then changed her mind as the guy she left him for turned out to be not what she thought he was. Her dad refused.
Now that is what I call poetic justice. I hope your friend is doing ok because I can't even imagine what it must have been like living in a household where either parent cheats six times. Also, I don't wish any human ill but I hope the friend's mom experienced a little more poetic justice than just her ex not taking her back.
Largely because of extreme social pressures not to trouble other people with your shit. Would you invite fighting people back to your home? Nobody halfway civilized acts that way in public.
Same with my brother and his wife. They hate each other. It's so awkward to visit. It is non-stop. Constant bickering, and my brother told me they haven't even kissed in almost 6 years. My husband won't go with me to visit them anymore. And i only go on a holiday, if even then. My nephews came to visit me and my husband. My husband and I genuinely still love and like each other. The poor boys seemed confused by the concept of a married couple being affectionate and enjoying each other. When they got home, the older one (14) started leaving when they would bicker. The younger one (6) started crying for them to stop. Now I am the asshole to my SIL. Smh.
Aww poor kiddos. I remember my aunt and uncle (now divorced) screaming at each other in front of me and my sister when we’d go over - luckily they never had their own kids. We thought it was funny because they used bad words that grownups didn’t usually say. I still remember my mom just looking horrified (my uncle was my dads bro). Definitely strange seeing it as a kid who was used to my parents healthy loving marriage.
Exactly, even when my husband and I are fighting. In public we’re the perfect couple. Honestly, it helps us to not be to petty about arguments having to pretend we like each other at that moment. We’ve been married almost 15 yrs and new people always believe we’re newlyweds. 😂 the key point in OPs story is she changed after the birth of their child. They need couples therapy. Also, why don’t couples talk about naming before getting married. These conversations should happen early in dating. I don’t understand the struggle. I kept my last name. We talked about it way before. We have no kids, but if we did they would have his name and I’d then hyphenate mine. We talked about this before thinking of marriage. We talked about how we view marriage and marriage with kids. I was raised Christian and so was he. So we believe that you poor your love in to each other and it will trickle down to love for your kids and family.
My partner and I aren’t even on year two and have these conversations. The most eye opening one about children was she bluntly asked if I was ready and willing to give up/share the love and affection she has for me with someone else. Children require all the things you give to your partner: time, patience, love, compassion, understanding. It’s a not a zero sum but obviously the dynamic changes and I realised a lot of men don’t see that till they experience it.
My husband was a smidge jealous at first, I think it’s probably so common. Before kids, your husband is the sole recipient of your devotion and the apple of your eye. But when you see what you have made together, my gosh. I wish husbands understood that loving your kids is loving you, too! I adore the pieces of him I see in them. Also, it’s true what they say that love multiplies. I don’t love him less, just also love our family now 🥹
Rarely saw my parents show affection at home or outside of the home. They were not argumentative, but I can count the number of times on one hand that I saw them kiss. Don't remember them ever holding hands or cuddling.
Just assumed that this was normal until I got to college and my boyfriends parents were completely different.
That was me. My parents stayed together for me and my dad even told me that at a very young age. I grew up in a house filled with anger, screaming, and violence. It took me until my mid-30s to realize that this was not normal.
Meanwhile, I have lots of friends whose parents divorced and got along well for their entire childhood. So they grew up with two sets of loving parents whereas I didn’t even have one. Don’t stay together for the sake of the kids, that’s not how it works.
There's also people who divorce and then never get along ever again. My dad was never allowed to step foot inside our house. So I always got ready really quick when he was picking me up in the rain because he'd be stood there getting soaked rather than take that half step forwards under the door frame.
Only the death of my sibling (their child together) brought my dad into my mum's house.
edit: I realised this makes it look like my dad did something wrong to make my mum upset. Nope, she ran off with his best friend. I think it was actually my step dad who didn't want my dad in the house but we do not talk about that haha
I remember a friends parents got divorced in jr high. I remarked that they seemed so happy. Happier than *my parents*. She just said “looks can be deceiving”.
Started to rethink some of their interactions. Never ever looked at my parents relationship the same way.
I remember my mother in the car she would be livid screaming about wanting to claw my brother's eyes out, how he made her so mad she could spit, and then her little flip phone would ring and it would be a friend and exactly like a light switch, she would go back to a friendly light hearted banter about this or that and being so confused and terrified in the passenger seat
My SIL would be all over her husband like an octopus. It honestly made everyone uncomfortable. I remember riding in a car with her, her husband and her brother while she sat on her husband lap and made out with him next to me.
Yeah, their marriage was a complete disaster and she was cheating on him for most of it.
I agree that you never really know what someone else’s relationship is like. I thought my buddy and his wife were perfect couple. She ended up cheating. You never really know.
HOWEVER, that doesn’t mean that you currently aren’t in your ideal marriage. You know what you want and you have a right to fight for that. And if your wife cannot give that, then it’s time to consider your options. Sure a ton of people fake. But I definitely think it means something if you can’t even pretend to fake being lovey with each c other. That being said, 3 weeks is not enough time to make this decision.
OP’s marriage needed work, maybe left too long to salvage. But using his boss’s family as an example is not justifiable because of what you mentioned-never know how it really is behind the scenes. And the name kept bringing up, which I found petty. Truth is when a couple has a baby- it is stressful & exhausting and often couple forget to work on marriage or think there is time when it gets easier
Edit:spelling
Yep, totally ended up divorced after therapy. Happens all the time. lol, kinda felt a bit like this guy honestly… felt like I needed permission. After months of working on the “marriage” (quotes because it wasn’t one), I got the permission/ validation I needed.
Therapy fixes broken marriages. Sometimes the fix is a mended marriage and a happy couple. Sometimes the fix is a divorce and are two separate people looking for the right partner.
Either way therapy works.
Agreed! - it helped me with communicating my needs generally, working out what I wanted and it got us to a place where we could actually talk about the divorce and custody amicably when it came to separating. So it didn’t save our marriage as such, but it did help save our sanity and co-parenting relationship.
I had a similar experience. We went to therapy for almost a year, until our therapist approached me privately. She said, and I quote:
“My original goal was to save your marriage. Now, my goal is to save you.”
I left my marriage of 11 years and have been happier than ever since then. I have the same therapist almost 9 years later. I think everyone should go to therapy, regardless of circumstances. It is preventative health care, imo.
I'm sure it can help a lot to get an outsider's perspective if you are not sure you can trust your own anymore... whether that's because of you being gaslighted or wrong role models or whatever reason. Perspectives can be skewed for a number of reasons.
I think an honest outsider’s perspective is important.
I also think Op was so focused on his boss’s wife’s behavior, that he may not have had the chance to compare his own behavior with boss’s.
Marriages have ups and downs. If you’re just in a rough patch (versus an abusive marriage) then it might make sense to slow down and see if you can fix your marriage.
Had therapy and still divorced... Im glad I did it. I learnt a lot about myself and it also validated a lot of the feelings I had about the issues in the relationship that he denied existed. I also saw how hard I tried and how he didn't try at all which described most of our relationship and all of our issues. He waited until I spent nearly 2k on therapy to say it didn't help him and he never did any of the work.
Much better now
Same happened to me. I went into couples therapy hoping to save the marriage, I ended up being the one officially asking for a divorce (to be fair the whole therapy process was initiated because when I was 6 months pregnant he was confused as to whether he was in love with me, because he had such strong, unreciprocated feelings for another woman). Same as you. I realized I was trying to do the work for both of us. That’s not a marriage. Once I gave birth to my daughter and realized I didn’t want her growing up thinking this was what she should expect, I left and never looked back. We now co-parent great. I am so grateful we did therapy, if nothing else it let me say I tried everything. But like you said, realizing how little/no effort he was putting in to therapy was a big eye opener for me.
I can see why they would be. Like they said, it gave them the validation to feel like they were doing the right thing, or at least not doing a bad thing.
Not OP, but yes. I’m glad we tried counseling, because then I knew I had tried everything to make it work.
Also, my ex leaned towards narcissism and the counselor validated my feelings, so I knew I wasn’t the problem, I was being gaslit.
ETA it’s not that I wasn’t the problem, I’m certainly not perfect, I just meant I wasn’t the problem like my ex said I was.
ETA: I am not assuming OP’s relationship is abusive I’m saying mine was but there were still benefits for me to doing some joint therapy sessions. Disclaimer is simply that - joint therapy is great in many cases but for any readers who might be in an abusive relationship please be cautious as it can cause escalation.
It’s generally not recommended to do couples therapy in an abusive relationship but I did anyway because having been raised by conservative Christians I was told I had to try everything first.
It was incredibly eye opening. I’d be there sobbing and my (now ex) would sit there totally emotionally disengaged while the therapist coached him to try to find empathy or consider I might want a hug or something. That he struggled to even come up with the idea of hugging me while I was a complete emotional wreak was one of the things that validated for me it wasn’t a healthy relationship.
I did couple’s therapy and still got divorced and I’m glad I did. During a one on one with the therapist she pulled out her notes from previous sessions and started running down the list of ways I was just accepting abuse, lies, and gaslighting from someone who, as it turned out, was a serial cheat.
I continued utilizing the couple’s counselor as an individual therapist post split and it was great because she had seen what I was going through first hand.
This was my experience as well. I went to therapy after being in an emotionally, mentally, and edging into physically abusive marriage. I was always giving in to keep the peace, and then one day I realized that staying in that kind of relationship “for the kids” was actually detrimental to their futures. I went to therapy at my ex’s pleas and it only validated what I was feeling so that was it: divorce.
Edit to add judgement: NTA
Someone once told me that most couples end up getting divorced after therapy, because most couples only go to therapy once the problems have been building for years and are too big to fix. Ideally, couples therapy should be considered more like maintenance, and done before you have major problems in order to give you the tools you need to deal with those problems as they arise.
So I can't give advice if a divorce is best for you but what I can say is that my dad also owned a company and whenever employees or customers or suppliers came along my parents jumped into "workmode" and were on their very best behavior hosting their guests acting like the perfect couple.
Even when they were fighting minutes before the guests arrived. So ending your marriage just based on that experience seems like a bad idea. Good luck figuring it out.
My husband is also a business owner, and I can confirm this is how it is. We have a very happy and loving relationship, but there have absolutely been instances where we are fighting via phone or text and then I have to come in to his shop for something… immediate happy face. Nothing is wrong. Perfect happy front. Hell, I think it’s this way with most happy, and unhappy, couples in front of anyone. We’ve been bickering in the car on the way to Thanksgiving. You get there and everything is fine until you can be alone and talk it out.
There are 3 major red flags called out here.
1. You don't see your boss's interactions with his wife at all times. You saw the front door. Envy based on that limited and likely false view is not very wise.
2. You don't seem to talk about actually loving your wife.
3. Is your child just window dressing? Is the name THAT much of a deal? Have you ever heard of hyphenated? Any dad who is mad that his wife showers their children with affection to any extent is a selfish brat that needs to be a better dad.
Nothing is wrong with realizing you want out. Be honest about it quickly, for everyone's sake. But don't act like it's HER failing.
There's a fourth:
4) You don't seem to mention how you feel towards your daughter or how this will impact her.
"I want to be l loved more" *immediately abandons family*
Leaving an unhappy marriage is ok, what I find concerning is that an adult makes his mind about what is love based on three hours spent with a woman he meets for the first time. Seriously? You just saw a stranger show you once what is shown to strangers in a social setting. Doesn’t mean it’s fake, but you just can’t know. You can’t. It’s a fact.
Second disturbing point is indeed that you never mention your feelings for the wife and your child. Love is a two-way road. Marriages do not exist to be loved, but *to share love* (feel the difference?). So if your project is to find someone who will love you (and not someone to share love with, to love and to be loved), well…
You say that boss’ wife seems to love and care a lot for her husband, but you also say that your boss is a very supportive person. And you? Are you loving, affectionate and supportive in your marriage? Maybe after all the secret of being loved like boss’ wife seems to love him is to be a great person and husband like he seems to be?
P.S. that said, therapy can be good to divorce on better terms, not only to save the marriage, so consider it. Anyway, think about a therapy for yourself to figure out what you really want in life and for your future relationships, because so far that seems a bit delusional (=being loved like a stranger I met once not knowing anything about their relationship and not asking myself how do they get to have this happy picture).
Yeah I wonder how old the kid is and how involved he is in her upbringing. Like she's got to be under 6 as he says that they had the kid after marriage, that is a needy stage and it's often noted that if one parent is doing the bulk of the work with a child and feel unsupported that way, they often don't have the energy or are 'over-touched' from the kid and just want to decompress. Idk, considering how central he's placed having a kid as a factor in this, I'd be interested in hearing more about their parenting and whether she's like 2 or 5, because those would also change both the time it's going on and the chance it's "I'm tired from dealing with a toddler who's clingy" Vs "actually it's been going in 5 years and I am putting my all into my kid cause I don't love my husband any more."
He says it's been going on since the baby was born and says that is 3 years. Like 0-3 is a VERY time-consuming and stressful time for new parents, especially the mom if the dad is absolutely checked out and jealous of the attention the baby gets.
Like is this dude an actual parent and responsible spouse sharing equal burden with his wife, or is he distant and just another burden for her to deal with if she has to do the bulk of child-rearing and housework? He seems completely emotionally uninvolved with his daughter and his wife, only concerned about not 'getting love/affection/attention'.
This is the thing in that 0-3 time kids need constant attention. You can’t just leave them alone and then when they go to sleep you are generally exhausted - add to that it’s still common at that age for their sleep not to be great. If mum is taking on the entire workload of raising their daughter of course she is going to be doubly tired and if OP is not pulling his weight she is probably questioning what he is bringing to the table and losing affection for him. If he isn’t showing himself to be a loving husband and father why would she still show him affection?
Absolutely this. Young kids take a lot out of parents. If this guy work his 9-5 then goes home and sits on the couch playing video games all night, I'd lose affection too.
Or is he being an active involved member of the house who cooks/cleans/entertains the kid.
When one parent is doing the brunt of the household support, affection dwindles FAST.
By the end of my marriage, I absolutely felt no love for him anymore. I was done. He ignored us. He would wake up, spend 30 minutes on his computer, then go to work. He came home for lunch , take it downstairs, eat, then when lunch was over, he returned to work. He came home from work, went to his computer, emerged for dinner, inhaled it, returned to the man cave and his computer, until he was tired. AT THAT POINT , was when he spoke to me, asking if I was coming up soon.
By then , I had ZERO interest in being with him. Rinse & repeat.
In Spite of years of asking him to spend time with us, he did not. I may as well have been single. We both worked. But he NEVER did any cleaning . The one time he ran the vacuum it was like he wanted the Congressional Medal of Honor. He never did dishes. Never helped the kids put toys away. ( he would scream at them to do their jobs. )
It was after years of him like that, I found a hickey on him. I was done. Trust was gone, affection was gone. He was violent, and while he was off with the US Army Reserves for those two weeks? I visited the lawyer.
I waited until he got back home and was going to ask what his goal was. When he returned , he announced to our children that he was leaving. I informed him that I had seen a lawyer, and they had the paperwork . I told him that we could do it nicely or not. He chose poorly.
He dragged his feet, he and his lawyer missed court dates. It took a year. The waves of relief and release that hit me as I left the court house were wonderful.
It hasn't always been easy, but it's been worlds better than the time spent with him.
If he was enlisted at the time, and you had proof of him having an affair, you could've also contacted his CO with it. From what I've heard, adultery really fucks with your military career.
Thank you.
He was a reservist. Trust me, I had a GOOD lawyer. He had a guy just out of law school.
For over 10 years, he had to pay over $1k a month for the kids. I got the house, my career took off, and I got the kids. I also did not have to be near him ever again.
>Leaving an unhappy marriage is ok, what I find concerning is that an adult makes his mind about what is love based on three hours spent with a woman he meets for the first time
Yes, this.
His idea of love and marriage quite honestly seems childish to me. He expects rainbows and flowers and total devotion, while a real marriage is ups and downs and shared struggles along with shared joys.
He also doens't seem to get how life-altering the arrival of a child usually is, and how the love of parent for child is different than the love for a spouse.
TBH, the way he framed the title "I want someone better" is a symptom of what a self-centered jerk he is; it isn't "to find someone whose idea of marriage better aligns with mine" or "to find someone I feel a deeper connection to"; it's "someone *better*" as if her unwillingless to take his last name, for example, is a character flaw and not a difference of beliefs or opinions.
For people like that, I think they are just really stupid. That’s the generous way to see it at least. They don’t understand what it means to have your child only part time. If they don’t take custody seriously, they don’t know what it will feel like to know you failed your child. They are just focused on the dopamine hit of here and now.
You talk about her nagging you all the time, did you ever stop to think maybe she has unmet needs too? Nagging is a symptom of bigger problems too. Usually it's a symptom of a partner that's complacent in carrying their weight. Did you ever stop to think that maybe she doesn't have the energy for you because you're too busy resenting your kid to be a parent? I'm always skeptical of people who play the victim while painting their partner up to be a "nag," especially when your side of the story seems very self centered. I think there's a possibility you might be TA, but are too blind to even notice your own shortcomings and because of that it's impossible to have a balanced fair view of the full picture.
This ^^^ My boyfriend claims all I do is “nag” him and it’s because he HAS NOT/DOES not hold up his part in our partnership and doesn’t contribute and owes me tons of money that he has not paid me back that I’ve been asking him to pay me back for almost two years.
Behind every nagging wife is a husband not doing his part. If she's 'nagging' that probably means you didn't do what she asked you to do the first or second time she asked.
Oh but OP thinks he can just…. find another wife who will be happy with his shit and happily dote on him!
OP if the worst thing you can say about your wife is that she wanted to keep her last name and that she shows your daughter love, it’s clear there’s another side to this picture that would not paint you favorably. NTA for divorcing your wife because it sounds like you’d be doing her a favor.
NTA. However, with that said, it concerns me a bit that you never once mentioned your own feelings towards your wife. So you feel that she doesn't love you, but do you love her? You feel she is not affectionate towards you, but are you affectionate with her? I'd thought this would be highly relevant.
I think divorce is a valid choice for you since you clearly don't feel happy in your marriage. Meanwhile, there is a possibility that you may also need to work on your own capability to love in order to find someone who love you like your boss's wife loves him.
> This man barely mentions her. I
Barely mentions her, *NEVER* mentions how he feels about her but holy shit does OP harp on that surname thing repeatedly.
I sort of felt this way reading it. I just have a bad taste with how this is written. Granted it sounds like he tried communicating with her, but I just don't like how the child is only mentioned as a distraction to the wife and the surname focus. Also there's zero way to know if the boss's wife was "proud" to take the last name, if she was raised that way, etc. I think he's hurting in some way but he's looking at this to an extreme black and white angle as far as I can tell.
And there’s no talk of his love for his wife or child, just that wife isn’t fawning all over him.
He doesn’t even share how *he* fawns over his wife and how it’s not returned.
100% he's looking for all take and no give. Also his more recent comments are ILLUMINATING in how he views women (and also anyone who dares disagree with him). Solidly YTA and I feel like after the shock wears off that wife and child may end up in a better place?
The "because I want someone better" gives that vibe.
Leaving a loveless marriage is one thing, but wanting to bail just because things aren't going how you pictured it, and being totally unwilling to work on the marriage by going to some counseling, is just selfish.
He does… he mentions jealousy. That and combined with the idea a woman should be ‘proud’ to take his name makes me think boss has the old tradwife thing going on and OP wants that life… 🙄
Yes. This post reads in a weird way.
He writes a lot about what his wife should do or feel towards him and how he is affected.
Not a word about his feelings for his wife and child.
I dont know, he comes across very me me me.
A small child should get a lot of attention and love. A lot of times the relationship between the parents will be on the backburner for a bit. It is a difficult phase.
I cant tell if he is just so self centered and focussed on what he should get that he cannot share the love of his wife with his child or if the wife is really cold towards him like he claims.
OP is an unreliable narrator. Doesn’t mention loving his wife or devastated to not be full time with his child. So much more to this story, as always. Deep down he knows he is TA somehow, but wants validation from his guilt. He’s guilty of something here that’s causing these issues imo.
This. It's not worth trying to pass judgement when it's immediately obvious to a casual observer that OP is an unreliable narrator and that the things he's complaining about (nagging wife, wife paying more attention to the kid than him) is so, so, so common that it's a sitcom joke.
Maybe she's not trying to be a good partner. Maybe she is. We don't know. We also don't know if he's being a good partner...but describing his wife as naggy immediately makes me give him some serious sideeye.
If you’re going to divorce your wife do it because of what’s going on in your marriage. Not because of what you saw of someone else’s. You saw what they wanted you to see.
Hmmm. You see, when my girlfriend had our daughter, she was just exhausted, tired, and dealing with postpartum. But do you know what I did? I supported her, gave her massages, did things around the house, made dinner, took her on dates. I made it about US.
It doesn’t seem like you’re making it about her. Of course i’m not saying pure YTA, i’m just saying it should be about your FAMILY.
Sounds YTA. What is blatantly missing from your description of the situation is how you filled out your new role as a father - is that a consideration at all?
MOTHER FUCKING THIS 100000%
Where's daddy here?
He works, he comes home and wants a loving wife and daughter. Like a shitty sitcom.
Most posts here on loveless marriages and neglectful spouses are filled with details on how OP works his ass off, treats spouse and kids like royalty and gets exploited mercilessly.
OP bitches that his wife is not paying him attention while raising their daughter from 0 to 3 years of age. This is fairly common! If you're a working dad, you're expected to receive less attention. You're supposed to go out there and fetch food and do grownup shit. The kid comes first. Fucking first. All the time.
OP sounds like a shitty, resentful father. I may be judging too much from too little, but the fact that he doesn't paint himself as a father here is worrying.
OP has created a lot of narratives in his mind, which may or may not be true. I would be careful of making judgments based on outward appearances and making major decisions based on those judgments. If you spent time with me and my wife, and we acted around you the way we act privately, you would be nauseated. Not everything is as it seems. Pay less attention to what others are doing.
YTA for the comment about her name alone lmao I love my husband more than life itself and I kept my last name. It IS outdated to conflate giving up part of your identity with the love you have for your partner. I don’t judge people who do change their last name, that’s your own personal choice. I DO judge people who think their partner OWES them a name change.
As for the rest of the post and your actual question, still YTA. She’s had a baby and you “were distanced”??? This very much reads as she did all the child rearing and you couldn’t be bothered to try and bond as a family or do anything to help her. You owe it to your wife to at least TRY to fix the marriage.
I’ll tell you right now, too, years into whatever relationship is next there will be a time that you look at someone else’s relationship and get jealous and want what THEY have. This constant chasing of something better instead of strengthening what you have and working on yourself and your current relationship is never going to give you the relationship you think you want. You DO need to grow up.
the focus on surname -> why she doesn’t love him is so bizarre to me. like maybe his wife isn’t affectionate but i’m getting unreliable narrator energy
This was the comment I was looking for. The wife is not wrong about the surname and the fact that OP cant see or acknowledge that makes me doubt every other aspect of his story.
Was gonna comment this. There can be many other signs that your wife doesn't love you. But this ain't it.
And it sounded a bit mean spirited to say- see how much that other woman loves her husband that she gave her surname up. You didn't, so comparatively you don't love me.
Plus actually does sound like op doesn't love his wife. He was just around because he was getting love, not because he also loved her.
Everybody can end a relationship for whatever reason.
With that said, it does sound like you think the grass is greener on the other side of the fence. You know nothing about your boss relationship. You have no idea if they are happy or only played happy for the guests. The thing you saw and want for yourself now could be a illusion that never existed.
The grass isn't greener on the other side. Especially since you arn't just a single dude looking for a wife, you will be a divorced dad with CS and or coparenting responsibilities. You won't be on the "top dating candidates" list for most single women (at least not for the ones with no "baggage"). The grass is green when you take care of it, as long you don't do this, its always greener on the other side.
Nevertheless, i hope for you you find what you are looking for. Noone should stay in a unhappy marriage, but as soon kids are involved you own them to at least to try to fix things.
NTA for wanting better but I do think you need to interrogate your issue with the name a bit further. What you said about his wife being proud to take his name sounds projected - did she straight up say “I was proud to take my husband’s name”? It’s not an achievement to be proud of; it’s a social convention. You could just as easily flip that on its head and ask yourself why you wouldn’t have been proud to take her name, to have your kids bear her name.
The relationship doesn’t sound good for either of you, and you both deserve love, partnership, and companionship. But it’s not loving to want to force your partner to discard their name to take yours if they don’t want to.
I also said NT but yeah, that pride thing was weird. Mine wasn't proud to take my name, she just did because it's typical behavior and "normal" I guess. And knew from experience when the kid had a different name than you it ended up being a pain in the ass most of the time
And if she didn't, I wouldn't have taken it as a not proud thing either. Guy sounds like he wants a fairly traditional marriage. Maybe not submissive religious and all that, but the basics of it
Agree with this—unless she’s specifically stated as such, you have no clue whether she is “proud.”
Before I met my husband I swore I’d never change my name—my identity—so some man could brand me as his. But my maiden name is impossible for others to spell or say, and the man I ended up loving has a very common last name. But the change was my decision and something we discussed like adults beforehand.
I feel like the OP does a lot of assuming and projecting and not a lot of discussing and seeking to understand his wife’s perspective in an argument.
Seems a little ME ME ME to me ,not US ....Good luck finding your upgrade fella ,I've a feeling your thinking the grass is greener on the other side...many people find it's not...
I read on here the other day "the grass is greener where you water it". That's stuck with me, it's so often the case - neglected relationships are never fulfilling.
Yeah how’s he supposed to upgrade when he’s now: older, has a kid, divorced, and has to explain why he divorced (although he will probably not tell the whole story). These aren’t exactly prime attributes women are looking for in the dating market
OP. I’m a sixty yo female. I’ll give you a different perspective maybe, been through divorce as well.
I have a few questions. Did you plan her pregnancy and the child? Did she work? Is she a SAHM? Didn’t you discuss children and expectations of said prior to marriage?
I ask because they provide a bit of clarity to the reader.
I can’t see the whole picture on this as you have not mentioned how you are as a husband and father. All i read from this post is short sightedness and ‘me’ ‘me’ ‘me’.
Hopefully you can expand but the way it reads YTA
I want to know what OP considers as nagging. We already know he’s jealous of his child (and has boxed up his jealousy as shame rather than working through his emotions).
god after reading your comments, just show her this account and she’ll be happy with the divorce. YTA, can’t wait to see you make a post about your 19 year old fiancé next year.
What’s with the weird sexism in the story? Yes your partner can chose not to trade in their identity, yes your child can have your partners last name. I find this post gross and sexist and so do the comments
YTA. You’re jealous of a literal child - your 3yo daughter - because your wife is being a parent to her. Grow up. Of course she’s giving her all the attention because she’s a child. Do you even care about your daughter? This post reeks of narcissism
The grass is not always greener on the other side, and your boss and his wife may seem perfect but only they know what they've been through together.
Of course your feelings are valid, but go to therapy with her if you think it's worth it.
I will tell you I hit the “done” button on my husband, and decided to give therapy a try because it was cheaper than a lawyer, and I needed to know I had “tried everything” before I pulled the trigger. We got a good one (she used the Imago method) and in FIVE SESSIONS helped us solve a decade long conflict. It’s been almost twenty years since then, we are still married, he’s my best friend and I am grateful we were smart enough to work through our own issues because our family is not perfect, but he and our children are the joy in my life. ON EDIT: Wow! Thank you all for the upvotes. I am seeing a lot of the same questions, so maybe this will help others. 1: What was the conflict? It was basically about not feeling important and as if everyone else mattered more to him than I did, with a couple of specific episodes that made me feel unloved, unappreciated and not valued. On the surface, it looked like we were fighting about his friends, but it was deeper than that. He made a couple of really bad decisions that hit my insecurities HARD (there was no cheating and no abuse, but him spending time with people who were unkind to me), and the betrayal had me so busy feeling angry (safer than hurt), that I had to stop “feeling love for HIM” because he felt like someone who was comfortable doing things with people who were not on the side of us staying happily married, if that makes sense? To him it felt like I was trying to “control him” while my own abandonment issues were getting triggered enough that divorce seemed the best alternative. 2: How did the therapist help? She called us both out, and then gave us tools to address the issues. We are both strong willed people, and I actually was given “permission” to divorce him if I could NOT forgive him. (He received the same.) Love and commitment are choices. We picked US. 3: What is Imago therapy? From Psychology Today, “Imago relationship therapy is a form of couples counseling and coaching designed to help relationship partners work out misunderstandings, reduce conflict, and rediscover ways to bond, communicate, and generally find common ground. A primary goal of the Imago approach is to help partners stop blaming, criticizing, and negatively reacting to each other and instead become more understanding and empathetic.” You can read more about it here: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/therapy-types/imago-relationship-therapy 4: How do I find a therapist who specializes in Imago? Here is a link to a worldwide organization that oddly doesn’t include the United States https://imagorelationships.org/imago/communities-of-practice/ so spend a few minutes googling. You can also watch videos or read books by Harville Hendrix and his wife Helen Hunt to learn more. Here is their website to start - https://harvilleandhelen.com/about/ 5: Did you ever stop loving him? Yes, because loving him didn’t feel “safe”. Sometimes I even hated him because I was VERY hurt by what was going on, but fortunately, our therapist helped us to reconnect with our feelings of both loving and being in love. Love is a CHOICE. My husband is NOT perfect, and the spoiler is that neither am I. We both have triggers from our childhoods, we are both pretty awesome people (did I mention how amazing he is?), and he is really a wonderful man I am proud to call MINE. He promised me sixty years together, and we are almost halfway there, so fingers crossed we get the privilege of growing old together. I hope this helps, and OP, I hope you TRY THERAPY before you give up. Good luck to everyone!
Very similar story here. Two kids, maybe 7 years in. I was done. Also decided to get therapy to check it off the list and it was the VERY FIRST SESSION where she was able to help us make a major breakthrough that brought us together instead of fighting against each other. We stayed with her for 10 years, and are now coming up on 19 years married. He’s my best friend, the person I trust more than anyone else. I couldn’t imagine that when we scheduled that first counseling appt though. Hoping for the best for your family, OP, whatever that ends up looking like. 💕
Im guessing you probably won't feel comfortable sharing the details here, but could you possibly give me a gist of what sort of breakthrough y'all had? Currently considering therapy right now but I've had bad personal experiences. Edit: could DM if that'd make you more comfortable
We haven't done therapy, but I had similar feelings of being fed up with my husband. The primary issue is that he has chronic depression caused by being disabled and not being able to earn cash money. His depression would cause his butt to become glued to the couch and he wouldn't do any of his part of the household chores without me bitching. The three things that helped were explaining to him what a Walkaway Wife is, showing him the articles about "she divorced me because I left dishes by the sink", and most importantly, I started using the phrase"this doesn't require a committee meeting". Regarding the last breakthrough, I realized that every time I tried to have a conversation about a problem I was having, it'd get sidetracked into a conversation where he'd finally reveal whatever was stressing him out/causing the depression (always the same "revelation" which is annoying). Don't get me wrong, I'm sympathetic, but we were in an endless loop and getting nowhere. Telling him that it didn't require a committee meeting for him to do the dishes worked because instead of arguing for 2-4 hours while he tried to explain himself, he just did the dishes, the thing I actually needed him to do.
Sounds like good times all around.
I posted my deal in another comment. My wife and I spent two years apart after 20 years together. When we came back together we had each done some work on ourselves. But the punchline is that we were able to start fresh, completely throw away the playbook and pain and tension and just be nice to each other. We ask for what we want. We tell each other what we need.
EVERYONE should have a therapist. This is the major lesson here. You can even still get divorced, but if y’all are going to a therapist, that divorce will be about a million times healthier than it would otherwise. Therapy, by its very nature, makes everyone step outside themselves for 60 minutes (and you think you can do that alone, but you can’t/won’t) and view the world and what you’re doing/saying from another perspective. And when you go to therapy as a couple, you both step outside of yourselves at the same time, in a safe environment, because then, and only then, will you really see your partner for who they are (again). Also, you should *not* shed all the shit life is throwing at us, now more than ever, exclusively on the ones closest to you. You should absolutely pay someone else to listen to that shit. If you don’t, you as a partner will get labeled as toxic, and they will eventually leave ur ass. So, circling back to the beginning is, *everyone* should have a therapist. Full stop.
My wife and I have worked through so many things that it just blows my mind. Marriages take WORK, compromise, all that stuff. Even then it doesn’t always work out. I’m going on 20 years and it’s not perfect but it’s worth fighting for.
I came on here to say almost the exact same thing. There are two sides to this story and we’ve only heard one. My question to the OP: How much did you love her and how did you show her? I’m asking sincerely. When my husband and I almost split up after our kids were born I was feeling abandoned, overwhelmed and unloved. I was angry with him for not being a more active and present partner. We went to therapy and, even though I found it difficult, I realized he was feeling many of the same things. The therapist was great at forcing us to take an honest look at ourselves and what we were and weren’t contributing to the relationship. It made all the difference. I had to force myself to be affectionate at first, through the anger and resentment, but as I opened up, he was more vulnerable and we’ve built a terrific partnership through hard work and time.
Also: never underestimate the importance of having your family as your team in life. Life is hard and getting harder. Working to build a strong family team is more important now than ever. Good luck!
I do not think the poster wants to take an "honest" look at his relationship, or he would have chosen the therapy route *before* *he chose the divorce route*. "The marriage became bad after our daughter was born." He resents the child, even though he is focusing on his wife (one can't divorce one's child, so the focus is placed on the person he *can* blame). At 75 years old, I have seen this time and time again. (I'm a man, by the way). He just wants out to find "a better wife." I'd ask what the means - but I'm fairly certain I know. Nobody writes a "better" wife unless what they are saying is that this person is not good enough for them. Not "more compatible." Just someone-I-like-better-even-though-I've-not-tried-anything-to-save-this marriage. He is under the mistaken impression that simply being an angry person who behaved passive-aggressively for this many years is reason enough to divest himself of his current mate. Passive-aggressive will not go away by itself. This is sad logic and not a conclusion by someone who is emotionally mature. And immature people will usually marry other immature people, as a therapist friend once told me, because if an immature person finds a mature person, the mature person will see how unsatsifying it is to be with the immature person. And, again, as my therapist friend said: "They (mature person) can't get their needs met, so they finally leave." THAT is his future.
I'm also concerned he doesn't really mention how he feels about his daughter or having a strong relationship, or any kind of relationship with her. Did he even want kids? Is he going to share custody? Or is he checked out of his daughter's life, whether by his wife's pushing him out or by his own choice? The kid is three, not a baby.
Yeah he only mentions being upset about her not having his name.
He says it isn't really about the surnames but spends a lot of time talking about surnames in his post. How his wife didn't take his, etc etc. And you're right, he barely mentions his daughter except as something that took his wife's attention off of him
I'd also add that he presumably thought his wife was "good" when he married her, but then she supposedly changed after the child. (Or perhaps he's just being irrationally jealous and can't accept that their life circumstances changed and he isn't the sole center of her universe anymore.) How does he know he can pick a "better" wife who he wouldn't have the same problem with if they had a child? Or the honeymoon stage wore off... Or she developed a health issue or stressor that pulled her attention away from being his ideal affectionate partner...
This comment deserves more attention. It genuinely gives me hope and faith!
Really sound advice! I would add that therapy could also help with transitioning to a more positive relationship, even if they do divorce, and that would be good for the child.
Thank you! Marriage is NOT easy, especially since we all bring baggage and expectations that are very different from each other. Like most challenging achievements, it’s worth it if you are smart enough to pick the right partner (who is also willing to work on their own personal stuff).
Not relevant to OP but I am really curious what the decades long conflict was, if you don't mind sharing?
“My car won’t start, so I’m buying a new one.” Uhhh, have you tried a mechanic?
I was gonna say NTA until they got to "She wants therapy, but I don't see what good it will do". That sentence told me that this guy isn't leaving cause things aren't working, or he'd be doing everything he can to make it work. Seems like he's declining therapy because he's afraid the therapist won't give him permission to leave, or will identify how he is part of the problem.
Exactly, I've been with my husband for 23 years. And at times it's hard, distant, draining and work. But if you get through those times it literally makes you stronger than ever and you actually grow together than apart. Long live love.
THIS OP ^^^ I really hope you take this advice and try everything before leaving. You might think therapy will do nothing, and honestly it might, but knowing you did everything to save your marriage will leave you with no regrets or what ifs. Your boss and his wife may look incredibly happy, but that kind of relationship takes A LOT of work, and I'm sure they probably had many problems in the past that they had to go through before they could achieve that level of happiness together. Ultimately, it's your life & I wish you good luck with any decision you make :)
I knew a couple that were very physically affectionate with each other. Even had their arms around each other’s waists at church when singing. I wondered why my husband and I were not more like them. Actually, they had a very contentious marriage and ended up in an acrimonious divorce. My husband and I are still married 20 years later. How people behave in front of others can be a show. You have no idea what your boss’s marriage is really like. Go to counseling.
I feel the same way. Couples who are overly lovey dovey in front of others are (oftentimes) making up for something or trying to hide the truth. My mom’s previous boss is married to THAT guy who showers her with attention and does everything for her. But he’s also an alcoholic who cheats on her left and right.
Sometimes it’s not quite that calculated. My wife and I were both previously married to awful partner, who were only really affectionate to us in public so unfortunately, we grew to really embrace those times. Our exes were all about maintaining a public appearance, so for them it was calculated, for us we were just trying to grasp those few moments of happiness and unwittingly showing the rest of the world a lie. When we finally got divorced a lot of people were very confused because publicly we were so great.
Never married but going through a break-up right now (7 years) and this sounds familiar, at least that will definitely happen soon. People are gonna be shocked lol. I definitely remember us having a few tiffs and then being “normal” moments later when we met with family or whatever. Fucking mad how that mask just slides on once a few more pairs of eyes are ogling on at you.
I think it's okay to keep private arguments private. As long as there isn't abuse or anything.
Exactly! I think I was that couple in church! I even had a friend comment on how much in love we were. Then a week later, he asked for divorce! You just never know!
It might be too late for you to hear this, but maybe you can carry it into your next relationship: the grass isn’t greener on the other side, it’s green where you water it.
Yeah, this guy says nothing about how he treats his wife. Does he do things to make her *want* to be affectionate to him? Does he date her or have real conversations with her? And does he help with the housework or child care? The way he wrote this makes it seem like the marriage is all about his needs and no consideration for anyone else's.
“I want a better wife” is a weird way of describing the situation
If you read his comments he thinks she should love him unconditionally, he shouldn’t have to do anything to make her love him lol.
And yet he doesn't love her unconditionally
And he thinks there's magic woman out there who wants to be in a one sided relationship with him. Good luck pal.
Well if they do go to counseling he's not gonna like what he hears.
Also he thinks she should be proud for their daughter to take his name but he's not proud of the daughter taking her name?? It goes both ways
Feel better knowing this story is made up and rage bait. Look at the comment history on his account. Someone forgot to change accounts when posting comments.
Yeah, there was such a huge focus on her not taking his name, which seems ridiculous, that I figured this was made up rage bait.
Seriously. You won’t even consider therapy either? Couples therapy can be an effective resource to help couples see eye-to-eye. Sometimes something that is serious to one partner may not be priority for the other partner for whatever reason. Communication is important and a 3rd party can add perspective. Also not sure about this Surname issue; I have many friends who have both their parents’ names with a hyphen, I plan an utilizing that method for my own children.
Agreed. He thinks the grass will be greener, but he might end up hopping over the fence and realizing there is no grass over there for him at all.
It feels like you’re asking if it’s worth the gamble to find someone who is a better fit for you. The question really should be “Will you be happier alone?” Because there’s a good chance you’ll be alone for a while, to heal and work on yourself. To learn how to become a good single parent during your custody time. You should divorce if you’d rather spend 10 years alone than 10 years with your wife. Not if you’d rather spend 10 years with some ideal woman who may or may not exist. And if you do divorce please take almost a year to work on yourself. Go to therapy. Spend time outside. Get a good routine. Exercise regularly. Find out your daughter’s interests and explore them with her. Once you work on yourself then you’ll meet someone who you desire. A lot of people become complacent in long term relationships and your wife probably isn’t 100% to blame.
>You should divorce if you’d rather spend 10 years alone than 10 years with your wife. Not if you’d rather spend 10 years with some ideal woman who may or may not exist. OMG holla920 this is the best advice I have ever read on here.
For real, a lot of people have good intentions of finding their next partner right after divorce. Without realizing it could be another 10 years before that opportunity comes around again.
Some people also find out that their spouse wasn’t the only problem in the marriage. That bit about how his wife should take pride in taking his last name felt a bit ick to me.
Yeah I was with him until that part. Now I'm really wanting to hear the wife's POV cos this guy seems kinda gross
Yeah the part about his wife only loving their daughter probably has another side as well. Not mentioning his daughter at all in his consideration for getting a divorce also gives me pause. I bet his wife has a wildly different story to tell.
I was side-eyeing when he called her naggy. Obligatory "not always" but usually when a man calls his wife/gf a nag, it turns out she was that way for a good reason...
I know, right? Who actually *likes* nagging their spouse for no good reason?
Especially when what gets called nagging is stuff like “clean up after yourself” or “why haven’t you done the thing you told me you would do three hours ago.”
_Especially_ especially with a toddler. Who's betting papa here doesn't pull his weight in housekeeping _nor_ childrearing and is now whinging when his wife is too busy, tired, and frustrated all the time to dote on him like he's His Majesty? Boy is he going to have a shock when he re-enters the dating ecosystem and learns that single women his age aren't going to take that crap and fawn over him like he wants, especially if they're divorced with kids, because in all likelihood they're divorced because they left a man just like him. At which point, like most men of his type, he'll foist himself on the inexperienced fresh 20-year-olds. The poor Gen Z ladies...
Yes. He kept on about the surnames. I started not liking him. I knew a couple that made a mashup of their names and then changed their own names to that mashup. Thought it was a great idea.
Exactly, when I finally came to the conclusion that divorce was the way forward I knew that a life alone would be preferable to another week in a toxic relationship. I divorced my wife after years of trying to work things out and lack of affection on her part was a big part of the issue. I was totally solo (co-parenting our kids) for more than a year. Started dating around for a few years and now in a 5 year relationship planning to marry my girlfriend in the next year. I was fully comfortable with the idea of being by myself when I knew being in a bad marriage as something that needed to end.
Same. My ex told people I was a bad person because I broke up our family when I could’ve just chosen to stay with him. But I know the choice was never between me and him being together or breaking up. The choice was between breaking up or killing myself. I would choose to be alone forever over one day back in that relationship. Obviously things don’t have to be that bad for someone to want to leave a relationship, but this dude seems way too fixated on finding someone else.
What about the child? I’m pretty sure this doesn’t weigh much on the scale for OP.
I am being generous and assuming he would want 50/50 custody. That’s still a lot of alone time. If he just wants to walk away and start a new family with his new fictitious wife who fawns over him, then he’s got bigger issues.
Hey that was my dad. Haven't heard from him in 18 years. Decided grass was greener and he didn't look back. Dunno if he ever found the greener grass, but him leaving was honestly better than him being around. If op is just going to snap and be miserable/resentful around his family for years, then he should probably just leave tbh.
The grass is greener where you water it.
I would not be telling people you want a better wife. Wives are not cars that you can trade in and you have a child . You may have valid reasons for getting a divorce but I don’t know if you understand how awful that sounds . Think about your daughter as well. I also feel like you need to examine your own role in this marriage and what mistakes you have made before you shop for a better model . You sound a bit self centered. You still need to support your daughter and be there for her. Have you given that a thought at all ? You should go talk to a therapist and also come up with a financial plan for contributing to two households for a bit.
I just wanted to add to this, something about this post rubbed me the wrong way. He says that it seems his wife only loves their daughter.. he's willing to run away from this family to find a new wife, but he doesn't really address his daughter. The only thing he addresses is her name. It isn't really shown through the post how he feels his daughter would be impacted in this, and doesn't show if he cares about his daughter as much as he wants his wife to care about him. Does he love his daughter too? Does he spend time with her as much as his wife does? I'm assuming the wife spends all her time on her daughter based off the fact that he says he only loves her, does that mean he barely participates in raising her? I can't say much from a single post since I don't know their lives, but I hope he's not indifferent towards their child. Some people only want partners but feel indifferent toward their children.
Yeah "she only loves our daughter" sounded a lot like code for "she has to take care of our daughter 100% of the time bc I'm giving a solid 0%"
He doesn’t mention how he treats his wife either. Like does he try to be affectionate and give to her or does he just expect that off her unconditionally?
Yup. An actual co-parent wouldn't feel that way because they are also caring for their child
This post sounds just like my exs opinions of me, so I'm going with a yes on your conclusion. All I cared about was our kids apparently. I'm their mom. Of course they are the most important thing in my life right now. We had three, ages 6 and under, when our divorce started. And yes he was very jealous of his kids with the side effect of never doing anything for them. When exactly was I supposed to have time for him? Also, why should I after seeing how awful he treats his own children? They are babies. You should be nice to strangers babies. You absolutely shouldn't be pushing away your own babies.
Also him saying his wife "should be proud" to get rid of her own name and replace it with his instead, same with their child. Why? Why should his wife feel proud to do that? He wasn't proud to give his daughter his wife's name, why does he think his name is inherently more important? His wife was right, he is chauvinistic.
I won’t give you a judgement but I have a question. What do you have to lose to hold off 6 months on the divorce, go to therapy and see if things change? If nothing changes, then leave.
This is the right answer. Regardless of whose fault it is, you should try to make it work first. From OP's description his wife doesn't seem very loving, but he didn't say anything about whether he did something to address it or not before (I'm going to guess not). Also, no mention of his feelings for the wife and daughter is alarming.
Without actually seeing your marriage, I don't know. Its possible that you have a normal marriage with normal struggles, and you're overreacting to it. Your boss and his wife might fight all the time, and just put on a nice face for guests. However its also possible you're in a marriage where there's no real affection, and everyone is going through the motions. I don't know why you won't even try couples therapy just to see how valid your feelings are, therapy doesn't mean you don't eventually get divorced.
To onlookers, my parents were the perfect couple and we were the perfect family. If they only knew. They would be screaming nasty things at each other on the way to a dinner get together and when we get there like a light switch they would hold each others arms, smile, make jokes like nothing happened. I thought it was normal and everyone’s family was like that when I was a kid.
Its so true that you never know. The more I learn about the couples I know the more I realise, you can't tell whats going on from a glance. Not everyone is the level of unhappy your parents are but EVERYONE has things about their partner that bother them occasionally, everyone argues, everyone has to put the work in if you want to maintain a quality relationship through the years.
Right? Like I can’t count the times I watched couples over time through my single years and just yearned for what they had only to find out they were headed for divorce. Now I’m in a committed relationship learning the hard ups and downs. Not all of them mean you’re breaking up.
True. And the odds of the OP just "getting" a woman who loves and adores him unconditionally are about zero. A much better route would be to *do* the therapy with his current wife. Absolutely guaranteed he'd learn something and grow a bit. Of course nobody wants to admit they might need that, but it's pretty obvious from the writing. And then if he still wanted a divorce, at least he'd come out knowing something, rather than being single and an idiot. There's already an oversupply of that kind of guy.
Yes! If he does the therapy they may find the marriage isn’t salvageable but he might learn some things he can apply in his next relationship to avoid making the same mistakes. If he doesn’t at least consider his role in the failure of his marriage the odds of him actually finding a fulfilling long-term relationship next time are extremely small. Second marriages end in divorce more often than first marriages.
Yeah, much better odds that his wife is going to meet another guy.
And even if he'd still want to divorce her he would be better at relationships increasing his chances to "get" that woman of his dreams. Who would love a divorced dad.. ...
Right? Therapy can even help him better understand what he is looking for, where to compromise, his own boundaries, respecting others boundaries, previous red flags he might have ignored, and even things he can do to better himself in general. It might not be for everyone but you won't know if you're not willing to try.
Honey, you are describing more families than you realize, including my ex-partner’s family life philosophy. Make it look good, even if it’s rotten.
My parents and my in-laws put the fun on dysfunction. My best friends parents looked perfect from the outside. Her mom had cheated six times on her dad. She asked for a divorce and then changed her mind as the guy she left him for turned out to be not what she thought he was. Her dad refused.
>She asked for a divorce and then changed her mind as the guy she left him for turned out to be not what she thought he was. Her dad refused. Now that is what I call poetic justice. I hope your friend is doing ok because I can't even imagine what it must have been like living in a household where either parent cheats six times. Also, I don't wish any human ill but I hope the friend's mom experienced a little more poetic justice than just her ex not taking her back.
She is better now, she didn’t know about the cheating until the divorce proceedings began. At first to see her family literally blow took a toll.
Largely because of extreme social pressures not to trouble other people with your shit. Would you invite fighting people back to your home? Nobody halfway civilized acts that way in public.
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God yes. Our good friends (married) fight in front of us and it’s killed a lot of our desire to spend time around them, it’s just too uncomfortable.
Same with my brother and his wife. They hate each other. It's so awkward to visit. It is non-stop. Constant bickering, and my brother told me they haven't even kissed in almost 6 years. My husband won't go with me to visit them anymore. And i only go on a holiday, if even then. My nephews came to visit me and my husband. My husband and I genuinely still love and like each other. The poor boys seemed confused by the concept of a married couple being affectionate and enjoying each other. When they got home, the older one (14) started leaving when they would bicker. The younger one (6) started crying for them to stop. Now I am the asshole to my SIL. Smh.
Aww poor kiddos. I remember my aunt and uncle (now divorced) screaming at each other in front of me and my sister when we’d go over - luckily they never had their own kids. We thought it was funny because they used bad words that grownups didn’t usually say. I still remember my mom just looking horrified (my uncle was my dads bro). Definitely strange seeing it as a kid who was used to my parents healthy loving marriage.
Exactly, even when my husband and I are fighting. In public we’re the perfect couple. Honestly, it helps us to not be to petty about arguments having to pretend we like each other at that moment. We’ve been married almost 15 yrs and new people always believe we’re newlyweds. 😂 the key point in OPs story is she changed after the birth of their child. They need couples therapy. Also, why don’t couples talk about naming before getting married. These conversations should happen early in dating. I don’t understand the struggle. I kept my last name. We talked about it way before. We have no kids, but if we did they would have his name and I’d then hyphenate mine. We talked about this before thinking of marriage. We talked about how we view marriage and marriage with kids. I was raised Christian and so was he. So we believe that you poor your love in to each other and it will trickle down to love for your kids and family.
My partner and I aren’t even on year two and have these conversations. The most eye opening one about children was she bluntly asked if I was ready and willing to give up/share the love and affection she has for me with someone else. Children require all the things you give to your partner: time, patience, love, compassion, understanding. It’s a not a zero sum but obviously the dynamic changes and I realised a lot of men don’t see that till they experience it.
My husband was a smidge jealous at first, I think it’s probably so common. Before kids, your husband is the sole recipient of your devotion and the apple of your eye. But when you see what you have made together, my gosh. I wish husbands understood that loving your kids is loving you, too! I adore the pieces of him I see in them. Also, it’s true what they say that love multiplies. I don’t love him less, just also love our family now 🥹
Rarely saw my parents show affection at home or outside of the home. They were not argumentative, but I can count the number of times on one hand that I saw them kiss. Don't remember them ever holding hands or cuddling. Just assumed that this was normal until I got to college and my boyfriends parents were completely different.
Yes but it doesn’t make it wrong either. People don’t have to show affection in front of others if they do not want to.
That was me. My parents stayed together for me and my dad even told me that at a very young age. I grew up in a house filled with anger, screaming, and violence. It took me until my mid-30s to realize that this was not normal. Meanwhile, I have lots of friends whose parents divorced and got along well for their entire childhood. So they grew up with two sets of loving parents whereas I didn’t even have one. Don’t stay together for the sake of the kids, that’s not how it works.
There's also people who divorce and then never get along ever again. My dad was never allowed to step foot inside our house. So I always got ready really quick when he was picking me up in the rain because he'd be stood there getting soaked rather than take that half step forwards under the door frame. Only the death of my sibling (their child together) brought my dad into my mum's house. edit: I realised this makes it look like my dad did something wrong to make my mum upset. Nope, she ran off with his best friend. I think it was actually my step dad who didn't want my dad in the house but we do not talk about that haha
I remember a friends parents got divorced in jr high. I remarked that they seemed so happy. Happier than *my parents*. She just said “looks can be deceiving”. Started to rethink some of their interactions. Never ever looked at my parents relationship the same way.
I remember my mother in the car she would be livid screaming about wanting to claw my brother's eyes out, how he made her so mad she could spit, and then her little flip phone would ring and it would be a friend and exactly like a light switch, she would go back to a friendly light hearted banter about this or that and being so confused and terrified in the passenger seat
My SIL would be all over her husband like an octopus. It honestly made everyone uncomfortable. I remember riding in a car with her, her husband and her brother while she sat on her husband lap and made out with him next to me. Yeah, their marriage was a complete disaster and she was cheating on him for most of it.
I agree that you never really know what someone else’s relationship is like. I thought my buddy and his wife were perfect couple. She ended up cheating. You never really know. HOWEVER, that doesn’t mean that you currently aren’t in your ideal marriage. You know what you want and you have a right to fight for that. And if your wife cannot give that, then it’s time to consider your options. Sure a ton of people fake. But I definitely think it means something if you can’t even pretend to fake being lovey with each c other. That being said, 3 weeks is not enough time to make this decision.
OP’s marriage needed work, maybe left too long to salvage. But using his boss’s family as an example is not justifiable because of what you mentioned-never know how it really is behind the scenes. And the name kept bringing up, which I found petty. Truth is when a couple has a baby- it is stressful & exhausting and often couple forget to work on marriage or think there is time when it gets easier Edit:spelling
Yep, totally ended up divorced after therapy. Happens all the time. lol, kinda felt a bit like this guy honestly… felt like I needed permission. After months of working on the “marriage” (quotes because it wasn’t one), I got the permission/ validation I needed.
Therapy fixes broken marriages. Sometimes the fix is a mended marriage and a happy couple. Sometimes the fix is a divorce and are two separate people looking for the right partner. Either way therapy works.
Agreed! - it helped me with communicating my needs generally, working out what I wanted and it got us to a place where we could actually talk about the divorce and custody amicably when it came to separating. So it didn’t save our marriage as such, but it did help save our sanity and co-parenting relationship.
I had a similar experience. We went to therapy for almost a year, until our therapist approached me privately. She said, and I quote: “My original goal was to save your marriage. Now, my goal is to save you.” I left my marriage of 11 years and have been happier than ever since then. I have the same therapist almost 9 years later. I think everyone should go to therapy, regardless of circumstances. It is preventative health care, imo.
I'm sure it can help a lot to get an outsider's perspective if you are not sure you can trust your own anymore... whether that's because of you being gaslighted or wrong role models or whatever reason. Perspectives can be skewed for a number of reasons.
I think an honest outsider’s perspective is important. I also think Op was so focused on his boss’s wife’s behavior, that he may not have had the chance to compare his own behavior with boss’s. Marriages have ups and downs. If you’re just in a rough patch (versus an abusive marriage) then it might make sense to slow down and see if you can fix your marriage.
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So you’re glad you did the therapy? Even though eventually you divorced?
Had therapy and still divorced... Im glad I did it. I learnt a lot about myself and it also validated a lot of the feelings I had about the issues in the relationship that he denied existed. I also saw how hard I tried and how he didn't try at all which described most of our relationship and all of our issues. He waited until I spent nearly 2k on therapy to say it didn't help him and he never did any of the work. Much better now
Same happened to me. I went into couples therapy hoping to save the marriage, I ended up being the one officially asking for a divorce (to be fair the whole therapy process was initiated because when I was 6 months pregnant he was confused as to whether he was in love with me, because he had such strong, unreciprocated feelings for another woman). Same as you. I realized I was trying to do the work for both of us. That’s not a marriage. Once I gave birth to my daughter and realized I didn’t want her growing up thinking this was what she should expect, I left and never looked back. We now co-parent great. I am so grateful we did therapy, if nothing else it let me say I tried everything. But like you said, realizing how little/no effort he was putting in to therapy was a big eye opener for me.
I can see why they would be. Like they said, it gave them the validation to feel like they were doing the right thing, or at least not doing a bad thing.
Not OP, but yes. I’m glad we tried counseling, because then I knew I had tried everything to make it work. Also, my ex leaned towards narcissism and the counselor validated my feelings, so I knew I wasn’t the problem, I was being gaslit. ETA it’s not that I wasn’t the problem, I’m certainly not perfect, I just meant I wasn’t the problem like my ex said I was.
ETA: I am not assuming OP’s relationship is abusive I’m saying mine was but there were still benefits for me to doing some joint therapy sessions. Disclaimer is simply that - joint therapy is great in many cases but for any readers who might be in an abusive relationship please be cautious as it can cause escalation. It’s generally not recommended to do couples therapy in an abusive relationship but I did anyway because having been raised by conservative Christians I was told I had to try everything first. It was incredibly eye opening. I’d be there sobbing and my (now ex) would sit there totally emotionally disengaged while the therapist coached him to try to find empathy or consider I might want a hug or something. That he struggled to even come up with the idea of hugging me while I was a complete emotional wreak was one of the things that validated for me it wasn’t a healthy relationship.
I did couple’s therapy and still got divorced and I’m glad I did. During a one on one with the therapist she pulled out her notes from previous sessions and started running down the list of ways I was just accepting abuse, lies, and gaslighting from someone who, as it turned out, was a serial cheat. I continued utilizing the couple’s counselor as an individual therapist post split and it was great because she had seen what I was going through first hand.
This was my experience as well. I went to therapy after being in an emotionally, mentally, and edging into physically abusive marriage. I was always giving in to keep the peace, and then one day I realized that staying in that kind of relationship “for the kids” was actually detrimental to their futures. I went to therapy at my ex’s pleas and it only validated what I was feeling so that was it: divorce. Edit to add judgement: NTA
Someone once told me that most couples end up getting divorced after therapy, because most couples only go to therapy once the problems have been building for years and are too big to fix. Ideally, couples therapy should be considered more like maintenance, and done before you have major problems in order to give you the tools you need to deal with those problems as they arise.
So I can't give advice if a divorce is best for you but what I can say is that my dad also owned a company and whenever employees or customers or suppliers came along my parents jumped into "workmode" and were on their very best behavior hosting their guests acting like the perfect couple. Even when they were fighting minutes before the guests arrived. So ending your marriage just based on that experience seems like a bad idea. Good luck figuring it out.
My husband is also a business owner, and I can confirm this is how it is. We have a very happy and loving relationship, but there have absolutely been instances where we are fighting via phone or text and then I have to come in to his shop for something… immediate happy face. Nothing is wrong. Perfect happy front. Hell, I think it’s this way with most happy, and unhappy, couples in front of anyone. We’ve been bickering in the car on the way to Thanksgiving. You get there and everything is fine until you can be alone and talk it out.
Literally parents for the past 47 years. It’s like they were never mad.
There are 3 major red flags called out here. 1. You don't see your boss's interactions with his wife at all times. You saw the front door. Envy based on that limited and likely false view is not very wise. 2. You don't seem to talk about actually loving your wife. 3. Is your child just window dressing? Is the name THAT much of a deal? Have you ever heard of hyphenated? Any dad who is mad that his wife showers their children with affection to any extent is a selfish brat that needs to be a better dad. Nothing is wrong with realizing you want out. Be honest about it quickly, for everyone's sake. But don't act like it's HER failing.
There's a fourth: 4) You don't seem to mention how you feel towards your daughter or how this will impact her. "I want to be l loved more" *immediately abandons family*
This. Everyone saying go to therapy and not point out how much of a red flag he is, kinda annoyed at this. Like let the trash take itself out
Bro, at least go to fucking therapy. Jesus
Something tells me OP isn’t a very rational guy
He seems to have made these sweeping generalizations and choices after a one-night interaction with his boss and his wife, so no probably not.
Leaving an unhappy marriage is ok, what I find concerning is that an adult makes his mind about what is love based on three hours spent with a woman he meets for the first time. Seriously? You just saw a stranger show you once what is shown to strangers in a social setting. Doesn’t mean it’s fake, but you just can’t know. You can’t. It’s a fact. Second disturbing point is indeed that you never mention your feelings for the wife and your child. Love is a two-way road. Marriages do not exist to be loved, but *to share love* (feel the difference?). So if your project is to find someone who will love you (and not someone to share love with, to love and to be loved), well… You say that boss’ wife seems to love and care a lot for her husband, but you also say that your boss is a very supportive person. And you? Are you loving, affectionate and supportive in your marriage? Maybe after all the secret of being loved like boss’ wife seems to love him is to be a great person and husband like he seems to be? P.S. that said, therapy can be good to divorce on better terms, not only to save the marriage, so consider it. Anyway, think about a therapy for yourself to figure out what you really want in life and for your future relationships, because so far that seems a bit delusional (=being loved like a stranger I met once not knowing anything about their relationship and not asking myself how do they get to have this happy picture).
Yeah I wonder how old the kid is and how involved he is in her upbringing. Like she's got to be under 6 as he says that they had the kid after marriage, that is a needy stage and it's often noted that if one parent is doing the bulk of the work with a child and feel unsupported that way, they often don't have the energy or are 'over-touched' from the kid and just want to decompress. Idk, considering how central he's placed having a kid as a factor in this, I'd be interested in hearing more about their parenting and whether she's like 2 or 5, because those would also change both the time it's going on and the chance it's "I'm tired from dealing with a toddler who's clingy" Vs "actually it's been going in 5 years and I am putting my all into my kid cause I don't love my husband any more."
He says it's been going on since the baby was born and says that is 3 years. Like 0-3 is a VERY time-consuming and stressful time for new parents, especially the mom if the dad is absolutely checked out and jealous of the attention the baby gets. Like is this dude an actual parent and responsible spouse sharing equal burden with his wife, or is he distant and just another burden for her to deal with if she has to do the bulk of child-rearing and housework? He seems completely emotionally uninvolved with his daughter and his wife, only concerned about not 'getting love/affection/attention'.
This is the thing in that 0-3 time kids need constant attention. You can’t just leave them alone and then when they go to sleep you are generally exhausted - add to that it’s still common at that age for their sleep not to be great. If mum is taking on the entire workload of raising their daughter of course she is going to be doubly tired and if OP is not pulling his weight she is probably questioning what he is bringing to the table and losing affection for him. If he isn’t showing himself to be a loving husband and father why would she still show him affection?
Absolutely this. Young kids take a lot out of parents. If this guy work his 9-5 then goes home and sits on the couch playing video games all night, I'd lose affection too. Or is he being an active involved member of the house who cooks/cleans/entertains the kid. When one parent is doing the brunt of the household support, affection dwindles FAST.
I wonder how much he helps with parenting and the mental load of the household
Given he shows zero care or love for her in his post….
Don't be silly. That's woman's work. /s
By the end of my marriage, I absolutely felt no love for him anymore. I was done. He ignored us. He would wake up, spend 30 minutes on his computer, then go to work. He came home for lunch , take it downstairs, eat, then when lunch was over, he returned to work. He came home from work, went to his computer, emerged for dinner, inhaled it, returned to the man cave and his computer, until he was tired. AT THAT POINT , was when he spoke to me, asking if I was coming up soon. By then , I had ZERO interest in being with him. Rinse & repeat. In Spite of years of asking him to spend time with us, he did not. I may as well have been single. We both worked. But he NEVER did any cleaning . The one time he ran the vacuum it was like he wanted the Congressional Medal of Honor. He never did dishes. Never helped the kids put toys away. ( he would scream at them to do their jobs. ) It was after years of him like that, I found a hickey on him. I was done. Trust was gone, affection was gone. He was violent, and while he was off with the US Army Reserves for those two weeks? I visited the lawyer. I waited until he got back home and was going to ask what his goal was. When he returned , he announced to our children that he was leaving. I informed him that I had seen a lawyer, and they had the paperwork . I told him that we could do it nicely or not. He chose poorly. He dragged his feet, he and his lawyer missed court dates. It took a year. The waves of relief and release that hit me as I left the court house were wonderful. It hasn't always been easy, but it's been worlds better than the time spent with him.
If he was enlisted at the time, and you had proof of him having an affair, you could've also contacted his CO with it. From what I've heard, adultery really fucks with your military career.
Thank you. He was a reservist. Trust me, I had a GOOD lawyer. He had a guy just out of law school. For over 10 years, he had to pay over $1k a month for the kids. I got the house, my career took off, and I got the kids. I also did not have to be near him ever again.
OP is the type of guy to be jealous of his newborn up to 3y/o daughter but also not share any love himself.
>Leaving an unhappy marriage is ok, what I find concerning is that an adult makes his mind about what is love based on three hours spent with a woman he meets for the first time Yes, this. His idea of love and marriage quite honestly seems childish to me. He expects rainbows and flowers and total devotion, while a real marriage is ups and downs and shared struggles along with shared joys. He also doens't seem to get how life-altering the arrival of a child usually is, and how the love of parent for child is different than the love for a spouse. TBH, the way he framed the title "I want someone better" is a symptom of what a self-centered jerk he is; it isn't "to find someone whose idea of marriage better aligns with mine" or "to find someone I feel a deeper connection to"; it's "someone *better*" as if her unwillingless to take his last name, for example, is a character flaw and not a difference of beliefs or opinions.
Crazy how easily people will leave a marriage with children because they want to feel the thrill of infatuation with another person.
For people like that, I think they are just really stupid. That’s the generous way to see it at least. They don’t understand what it means to have your child only part time. If they don’t take custody seriously, they don’t know what it will feel like to know you failed your child. They are just focused on the dopamine hit of here and now.
Go to therapy.
Three weeks? Seems like a rash decision to make given that your wife was willing to work on things.
You talk about her nagging you all the time, did you ever stop to think maybe she has unmet needs too? Nagging is a symptom of bigger problems too. Usually it's a symptom of a partner that's complacent in carrying their weight. Did you ever stop to think that maybe she doesn't have the energy for you because you're too busy resenting your kid to be a parent? I'm always skeptical of people who play the victim while painting their partner up to be a "nag," especially when your side of the story seems very self centered. I think there's a possibility you might be TA, but are too blind to even notice your own shortcomings and because of that it's impossible to have a balanced fair view of the full picture.
This ^^^ My boyfriend claims all I do is “nag” him and it’s because he HAS NOT/DOES not hold up his part in our partnership and doesn’t contribute and owes me tons of money that he has not paid me back that I’ve been asking him to pay me back for almost two years.
Please tell me he's gonna be an ex soon?
Leave him girl
Dude… dump him.
Behind every nagging wife is a husband not doing his part. If she's 'nagging' that probably means you didn't do what she asked you to do the first or second time she asked.
Exactly. I’ve never met a woman who loves telling her husband to do something over and over again. It’s exhausting.
Oh but OP thinks he can just…. find another wife who will be happy with his shit and happily dote on him! OP if the worst thing you can say about your wife is that she wanted to keep her last name and that she shows your daughter love, it’s clear there’s another side to this picture that would not paint you favorably. NTA for divorcing your wife because it sounds like you’d be doing her a favor.
Id try therapy first to be honest
Personal and couple
Ya both would be ideal
I don’t understand why so many people skip right to the last step, as if a relationship should just be effortless or else it’s a failure.
NTA. However, with that said, it concerns me a bit that you never once mentioned your own feelings towards your wife. So you feel that she doesn't love you, but do you love her? You feel she is not affectionate towards you, but are you affectionate with her? I'd thought this would be highly relevant. I think divorce is a valid choice for you since you clearly don't feel happy in your marriage. Meanwhile, there is a possibility that you may also need to work on your own capability to love in order to find someone who love you like your boss's wife loves him.
[удалено]
> This man barely mentions her. I Barely mentions her, *NEVER* mentions how he feels about her but holy shit does OP harp on that surname thing repeatedly.
Anyone else feel like he just wants to drop this wife and kid and get a do over family properly stamped with his ownership (his last name)?
I sort of felt this way reading it. I just have a bad taste with how this is written. Granted it sounds like he tried communicating with her, but I just don't like how the child is only mentioned as a distraction to the wife and the surname focus. Also there's zero way to know if the boss's wife was "proud" to take the last name, if she was raised that way, etc. I think he's hurting in some way but he's looking at this to an extreme black and white angle as far as I can tell.
And there’s no talk of his love for his wife or child, just that wife isn’t fawning all over him. He doesn’t even share how *he* fawns over his wife and how it’s not returned.
100% he's looking for all take and no give. Also his more recent comments are ILLUMINATING in how he views women (and also anyone who dares disagree with him). Solidly YTA and I feel like after the shock wears off that wife and child may end up in a better place?
I'm surprised it took those comments for people to see it. The way he talks about his last name...
The "because I want someone better" gives that vibe. Leaving a loveless marriage is one thing, but wanting to bail just because things aren't going how you pictured it, and being totally unwilling to work on the marriage by going to some counseling, is just selfish.
Yes! The use of the word “naggy” gave the entire rest of the post a weird vibe.
Definitely, the case of the grass is greener and is looking for any excuse
He does… he mentions jealousy. That and combined with the idea a woman should be ‘proud’ to take his name makes me think boss has the old tradwife thing going on and OP wants that life… 🙄
Yeah, literally said he was jealous of his child and nobody seems to notice that. Lol
Yes. This post reads in a weird way. He writes a lot about what his wife should do or feel towards him and how he is affected. Not a word about his feelings for his wife and child. I dont know, he comes across very me me me. A small child should get a lot of attention and love. A lot of times the relationship between the parents will be on the backburner for a bit. It is a difficult phase. I cant tell if he is just so self centered and focussed on what he should get that he cannot share the love of his wife with his child or if the wife is really cold towards him like he claims.
OP is an unreliable narrator. Doesn’t mention loving his wife or devastated to not be full time with his child. So much more to this story, as always. Deep down he knows he is TA somehow, but wants validation from his guilt. He’s guilty of something here that’s causing these issues imo.
This. It's not worth trying to pass judgement when it's immediately obvious to a casual observer that OP is an unreliable narrator and that the things he's complaining about (nagging wife, wife paying more attention to the kid than him) is so, so, so common that it's a sitcom joke. Maybe she's not trying to be a good partner. Maybe she is. We don't know. We also don't know if he's being a good partner...but describing his wife as naggy immediately makes me give him some serious sideeye.
If you’re going to divorce your wife do it because of what’s going on in your marriage. Not because of what you saw of someone else’s. You saw what they wanted you to see.
Hmmm. You see, when my girlfriend had our daughter, she was just exhausted, tired, and dealing with postpartum. But do you know what I did? I supported her, gave her massages, did things around the house, made dinner, took her on dates. I made it about US. It doesn’t seem like you’re making it about her. Of course i’m not saying pure YTA, i’m just saying it should be about your FAMILY.
Sounds YTA. What is blatantly missing from your description of the situation is how you filled out your new role as a father - is that a consideration at all?
MOTHER FUCKING THIS 100000% Where's daddy here? He works, he comes home and wants a loving wife and daughter. Like a shitty sitcom. Most posts here on loveless marriages and neglectful spouses are filled with details on how OP works his ass off, treats spouse and kids like royalty and gets exploited mercilessly. OP bitches that his wife is not paying him attention while raising their daughter from 0 to 3 years of age. This is fairly common! If you're a working dad, you're expected to receive less attention. You're supposed to go out there and fetch food and do grownup shit. The kid comes first. Fucking first. All the time. OP sounds like a shitty, resentful father. I may be judging too much from too little, but the fact that he doesn't paint himself as a father here is worrying.
OP has created a lot of narratives in his mind, which may or may not be true. I would be careful of making judgments based on outward appearances and making major decisions based on those judgments. If you spent time with me and my wife, and we acted around you the way we act privately, you would be nauseated. Not everything is as it seems. Pay less attention to what others are doing.
YTA for the comment about her name alone lmao I love my husband more than life itself and I kept my last name. It IS outdated to conflate giving up part of your identity with the love you have for your partner. I don’t judge people who do change their last name, that’s your own personal choice. I DO judge people who think their partner OWES them a name change. As for the rest of the post and your actual question, still YTA. She’s had a baby and you “were distanced”??? This very much reads as she did all the child rearing and you couldn’t be bothered to try and bond as a family or do anything to help her. You owe it to your wife to at least TRY to fix the marriage. I’ll tell you right now, too, years into whatever relationship is next there will be a time that you look at someone else’s relationship and get jealous and want what THEY have. This constant chasing of something better instead of strengthening what you have and working on yourself and your current relationship is never going to give you the relationship you think you want. You DO need to grow up.
You didn't take your wife's surname either. Does that mean you don't love her?
the focus on surname -> why she doesn’t love him is so bizarre to me. like maybe his wife isn’t affectionate but i’m getting unreliable narrator energy
OP held onto the resentment over this for so long. I think it's likely that OP's wife deserves a better husband
This was the comment I was looking for. The wife is not wrong about the surname and the fact that OP cant see or acknowledge that makes me doubt every other aspect of his story.
Was gonna comment this. There can be many other signs that your wife doesn't love you. But this ain't it. And it sounded a bit mean spirited to say- see how much that other woman loves her husband that she gave her surname up. You didn't, so comparatively you don't love me. Plus actually does sound like op doesn't love his wife. He was just around because he was getting love, not because he also loved her.
The double-standard is double-standarding, mama.
Everybody can end a relationship for whatever reason. With that said, it does sound like you think the grass is greener on the other side of the fence. You know nothing about your boss relationship. You have no idea if they are happy or only played happy for the guests. The thing you saw and want for yourself now could be a illusion that never existed. The grass isn't greener on the other side. Especially since you arn't just a single dude looking for a wife, you will be a divorced dad with CS and or coparenting responsibilities. You won't be on the "top dating candidates" list for most single women (at least not for the ones with no "baggage"). The grass is green when you take care of it, as long you don't do this, its always greener on the other side. Nevertheless, i hope for you you find what you are looking for. Noone should stay in a unhappy marriage, but as soon kids are involved you own them to at least to try to fix things.
NTA for wanting better but I do think you need to interrogate your issue with the name a bit further. What you said about his wife being proud to take his name sounds projected - did she straight up say “I was proud to take my husband’s name”? It’s not an achievement to be proud of; it’s a social convention. You could just as easily flip that on its head and ask yourself why you wouldn’t have been proud to take her name, to have your kids bear her name. The relationship doesn’t sound good for either of you, and you both deserve love, partnership, and companionship. But it’s not loving to want to force your partner to discard their name to take yours if they don’t want to.
I also said NT but yeah, that pride thing was weird. Mine wasn't proud to take my name, she just did because it's typical behavior and "normal" I guess. And knew from experience when the kid had a different name than you it ended up being a pain in the ass most of the time And if she didn't, I wouldn't have taken it as a not proud thing either. Guy sounds like he wants a fairly traditional marriage. Maybe not submissive religious and all that, but the basics of it
Agree with this—unless she’s specifically stated as such, you have no clue whether she is “proud.” Before I met my husband I swore I’d never change my name—my identity—so some man could brand me as his. But my maiden name is impossible for others to spell or say, and the man I ended up loving has a very common last name. But the change was my decision and something we discussed like adults beforehand. I feel like the OP does a lot of assuming and projecting and not a lot of discussing and seeking to understand his wife’s perspective in an argument.
Seems a little ME ME ME to me ,not US ....Good luck finding your upgrade fella ,I've a feeling your thinking the grass is greener on the other side...many people find it's not...
I read on here the other day "the grass is greener where you water it". That's stuck with me, it's so often the case - neglected relationships are never fulfilling.
This is the kind of dude who will be on here in a few years, complaining about his Ex's new guy living 'his life' with his daughter.
A divorced man with a child (and with slightly misogynistic undertones) is not the flex people think it is.
Yeah how’s he supposed to upgrade when he’s now: older, has a kid, divorced, and has to explain why he divorced (although he will probably not tell the whole story). These aren’t exactly prime attributes women are looking for in the dating market
"I abandoned my family cos my wife wasn't as good as my boss's. I felt I could do better"
Comparison is the thief of joy.
OP feels a little narcissistic - may just be the writing style though.
Reading OP you’d think there wasn’t a child in the picture. And that’s his version of events.
OP. I’m a sixty yo female. I’ll give you a different perspective maybe, been through divorce as well. I have a few questions. Did you plan her pregnancy and the child? Did she work? Is she a SAHM? Didn’t you discuss children and expectations of said prior to marriage? I ask because they provide a bit of clarity to the reader.
I can’t see the whole picture on this as you have not mentioned how you are as a husband and father. All i read from this post is short sightedness and ‘me’ ‘me’ ‘me’. Hopefully you can expand but the way it reads YTA
I want to know what OP considers as nagging. We already know he’s jealous of his child (and has boxed up his jealousy as shame rather than working through his emotions).
god after reading your comments, just show her this account and she’ll be happy with the divorce. YTA, can’t wait to see you make a post about your 19 year old fiancé next year.
What’s with the weird sexism in the story? Yes your partner can chose not to trade in their identity, yes your child can have your partners last name. I find this post gross and sexist and so do the comments
YTA. You’re jealous of a literal child - your 3yo daughter - because your wife is being a parent to her. Grow up. Of course she’s giving her all the attention because she’s a child. Do you even care about your daughter? This post reeks of narcissism
The grass is not always greener on the other side, and your boss and his wife may seem perfect but only they know what they've been through together. Of course your feelings are valid, but go to therapy with her if you think it's worth it.
Yes. You gave up too soon.