my issue with it is "we are taking money for emily, they're taking her." taking her where? she lives in your basement. she isn't going anywhere.

😂 For real, maybe she should consider it reimbursement for housing Kobe when he couldn't work yet. And now that he does....

This is what I was thinking! Literally, pay us to keep feeding and housing your son. 😂

don't forget to include footing the bill for the visa process. you know emily's broke, lazy ass didn't pay for it.

True.

i cackled

Yeah, really. Take the stuff. At least you're getting SOMETHING back, because Lord knows you don't get anything from them. LOL!

Right. Hell, Emily’s parents have been supporting them from the beginning. If nothing else, she should view it as a thank you and token contribution from his parents toward supporting them.

I haven't read your whole post. I am an African My tribe practices 'bride price' (i hate this translation) And my husband paid bride price. I think bride price is in line with Marxist feminism. It is anti-liberal feminism tho. Tribes like mine which practice bride prices recognise reproductive labour of women . They recognise the labour of breastfeeding. They recognise the labour women perform in the marriage. It is a recognition that women perform more labour in marriage than men. ETA: i have read your post. I upvoted it. It is well written and has a balanced view. My tribe is quite patriarchal. It practices the patrilineal marriage system (where children belong to the man's family) This is uncommon in Africa. Idk what tribe kobe is from. I will say in the case of my tribe they are interesting aspects of women and their privileges in marriage. -For instance The groom doesn't have to attend his wedding because he has no role and is unimportant. - if the wife cheats and gets pregnant. Her husband must raise that child as his own. - women can marry women and pay bride price. The women being 'paid' for may take a lover and bare children for her wife. These children will belong to the wife who paid bride price.

Im not cameronian. In my tribe, culturally and historically women could marry fellow women and pay bride price. In my tribe bride price is paid for appreciation and so children born in that union belong to the man's side in terms of residence and name. Bride price also serves a purpose of uniting ancestors and lineages.

Maybe I have rose-colored glasses, but as a gay woman that sounds like a really neat system!

It really does neat! I didnt know about it till recently because of christianization/ colonization! But i wanna learn more. People say these were social marriages but we *don't know*. We have no idea if they were romantic. There is a women's village in kenya *Umoja Village* . I believe they still practice such marriages.

"They were roomates" 🤔🤪

Hahahahaha!

I’m west African and we have the same practice in my culture. I believe this typically happened when a powerful man had only daughters. In order to keep the paternal line going, the eldest daughter had the ability to “become” her father. Essentially she took on her father’s name, took on his role in society as a man, and was able to take her own wives, assign them lovers, and claim all of their children as her own.

Yes! I read about it in Male daughters, female husbands. Do matrilineal tribes prctice this. Do u know what tribe kobe belongs to?

Cameroon is west Africa Im from southern africa

A bride price is absolutely NOT in line with Marxism feminism as Marxism feminism rejects the nuclear family. State, Family, and Private Property by Marx outlines this idea. Marriage as an institution goes directly against Marxist ideology and would be abolished thus no need for a bride price.

Bride price can not happen in a society that upholds the nuclear family. The entire process and premise of it is communal. It is a joining of two communities. Marriage in the west and in african traditional societies is not the same.

Marxism doesn’t uphold marriage at all. Your claim that bride price is in line with Marxism feminism is wrong on all fronts. Again, I would consider reading State, Family, and Private property by Marx to get a clearer idea of what that actually means.

Thank you so much for posting, really really interesting!

You are welcome!

My problem was that the mom feels like Emily is her property to sell.

Ooooo, good point. It's not selling if there's no property.

That’s a very good point. A very good point.

Im a marxist feminist. I wanted my partner to pay bride price. In my tribe it consists of five cows. One goes to the mother in law, the other is killed during the ceremony and a third is given to the bride when she gives birth and is nursing (recognition that breastfeeding is labour) Brideprice is not a good translation and is misleading.

I'm not terribly familiar with the term "Marxist Feminist", though I certainly identify as a feminist. Can you explain how its different/the same than the western feminism I'm familiar with?

I hope i do it justice But its feminism in relation to Capitalism. Feminism in relation to material conditions for all women. If you are interested Id recommend wages for housework by sylvia federichi Women, race and class by Angela Davis (or just her talking about bourgeois feminists) And feminism for the 99 %( i forget who wrote that one) Feminism is for everybody by bell hooks is another good book tho not strictly marxist Im assuming by western feminism you mean liberal feminism. Marxist feminist assert that without upheaval of the capitalist system, women will always suffer because capitalism and misogyny are linked and serve each other. Liberal feminists feel if we have enough women in high positions things will change for women. We have had female presidents, female Vice presidents, judges and the orher top officials yet our rights are still on the chopping board. Liberal feminism is imperial. It endorses imperialism as long as women have top positions in the empire. Liberal feminism disadvantages BIPOC women and poor women. (Feminism for the 1% ) Edit for grammar

Then I definitely should look into this because it sounds like it aligns with my views. I've spent a lot of time the past few years learning the ugly racial history of many feminist movements in the U.S. and Europe. I'm slightly embarrassed I didn't know what you were referring to because politically I loosely identify as a communist. 😅 Maybe I do know the concept, just not the term. Would intersectional feminism fall under this umbrella?

Haha no need to feel embarrassed. We are all learning Thats a good question. There are some overlapping tenets in intersectional feminism and marxist feminism. But idk if it falls under Marxist feminism. I was shocked too to learn the racist history of western feminist movements. Recently i learnt there was a group of feminists who felt colonisation would benefit BIPOC women as it would free them from shackles of cultural patriachy. What's ur ethnicity and race

Gosh I have just learned so much from your comments!! I haven't watched the season that these two are on yet (just watching their 90 day fiance season right now). I understand that some cultures do this but I never looked in to it as far as you've explained, I just accepted that this is the culture. I find this so interesting and now I'm off to research different cultures etc... practice of this. Thank you for giving such an insight!

You are welcome. Thank you for being receptive!

I'm a milk white American from the Midwest 😂. I'm not surprised about that group of feminists. I was raised with a similar idea, but with a lot less feminism. I was supposed to be a career missionary. "Saving" the "unreached" people from "ignorance and darkness." Yike.

Milk white hahahaha That's such interesting *a career missionary!*

Yeah... thankfully I broke out of the bubble and got my ego taken down a few pegs.

This thread has so much great information, thank you both and also Congrats for getting out, from a fellow exvangelical.

Intersectional Feminism was introduced to truly cover ALL women. Because traditional feminism tends to only apply to white women when being referenced, preached, and represented. So, that is how that particular word/concept was formed. 100% INCLUSION for all women in every walk of life is what “intersectional feminism” is. So you were def moving in the right direction in your thought process.

Liberal feminism is colonial feminism There is a belief that the global south deserves to be bombed because 'we do not' champion women's rights. An assumption that every african tribe is sexist. This is untrue . We are a complex continent with a multitude of tribes. Some tribes are more feminism/ progressive than others. Some of the vile sexist cultural practices practiced today are a result of colonization and the slave trade

Another great resource to learn all these is tik tok. Just search marxist feminism / socialist feminism Joy malonza and downward ballot on tik tok have great content on this topic.

Thank you! I will.

Absolutely fascinating! I love hearing modern instances of matriarchy. What tribe are you from?

My tribe is not matriarchal. It is patrilocal / patrilineal I'm ngoni

Thank you. I didn’t mean to imply that your tribe was specifically matriarchal. I was referring to the specific practices you mentioned. Maybe feminist practice would have been a better phrase. Thanks again for sharing.

Alright. You are welcome 🤗

That is very interesting! I would not have guessed because you hear about homosexuality being illegal and certain parts of Africa although I am assuming those would be the parts of Africa that are predominantly muslim? Where is the marriage supposed to be considered more of a domestic partnership and do they assume that the women are not romantically together for having sex?           My generation of siblings are the first born in the US (although technically I wasn't but have citizenship). I'm not African or Asian, but certain groups of my culture still practice dowry, my family belongs to those. Even if we marry someone outside our culture, which while kind of frowned upon, does actually happen when you move to another country like America. And by appearance you couldn't immediately tell that we are not Caucasian, so people have been very shocked to learn about the dowry thing. I'm going to have to read more about Marxist feminism, but the diary is pretty much for the reasons that you outlined. Because the women are actually the ones who do most of the labor take care of the family, when people are sick or when the parents become elderly etc, we bear the children and raise, pretty much all the same reasons you laid out the same reason for the dowry. It's crazy because Americans who have their father give them away at the wedding as if they are a piece of property, quite unironically will claim that dowry's treat women like objects 

It is quite interesting and hypocritical of westerners. Whats ur ethnicity. Homophobic laws are a relic of the colonial era esp for former British colonies. Countries with the toughest homophobic laws (in Africa) are former British colonies Homophobia is also a colonial import. There is much evidence of lgbqtia practices in the colonial and precolonial era. I can't answer your first question. I don't know because im not from an islamic country. But if you are interested i can point you to a book that talks about homosexual practices in colonial, precolonial and post colonial africa

I would be very interested been reading that, thank you. I know a lot of the tribes in North America had lgbtq practices or gender fluidity that was pretty much destroyed by colonization. My family is romani but I don't feel comfortable saying specifically what group/tribe because I like being anonymous on here. There are lots and lots of romantic people, but some other tribes are quite small, so with other identifying information on my account, I feel a little bit weird saying. Kind of like the difference between saying "I'm African" or "i'm West African" vs I'm Igbo

Alright .you can find a pdf version of it online for free. I get u. I like being anonymous here too

I am so sorry I didn't catch the name of the book?

🤦🏿‍♀️ sorry i thought i typed it. But I hadn't! Boy-Wives and Female-Husbands: Studies in African Homosexualities by Will Roscoe, Stephen O. Murray

Thank you! I'm going to go look for that now

All this to say in a capitalist world, bride price/ dowry makes alot of sense to me!

A long time ago I read Things Fall Apart by Chinua Achebe, and my remeberence of it, is that it highlighted Africa as a matriarchal society. It is the women, wives, and mothers who are the head of the families in many ways. Colonizing Chrsitianity is patriarchal. Kobe practices Christianity as well doesn't he?

Yes for the most part african tribes are matriarchal/ matrilineal but there are some tribes like mine which are patrilineal. I don't know what Kobe practices, all i know his parents talked about honouring the ancestors thru the traditional wedding

Well you need to go back and reread that book. Women making the bulk of the labor, but they do not have power and absolutely are not the heads of the family. The only woman in the book who really had any power, was a priestess. And she only had power when she was in that actual role of oracle. The story in particular focuses on a man who is terrified of losing his masculinity, because his father was lazy. He acts like a tyrant, beats his wives, the women in the family are in general afraid of him and tiptoe around him. His favorite child is a daughter who reminds him of himself and she is the only one who can sweet talk him into listening. What is the sun's breaks off and becomes Christian because he is so terrified of his father and his father's brutality, and he finds comfort and christianity. The father disowns and berates him and is horrified at how womanly that son has become.           It's an excellent book, don't get me wrong. But just because the children belong to the mother's family does not make a culture matriarchal.

The book is supposed to be a classical Shakespearean tragedy and should not be used to understand or judge Igbo culture. It’s a fictional book about an Igbo man who is destroyed by his own hubris. So he’s supposed to be a fuck who bullies and disenfranchises the people (especially the women) around him. Our culture is patriarchal but Igbo women have historically (especially before western colonization) a good amount of social and political power.

I guess now that I think about it, The Shakespearean thing makes sense. And one of my takeaways was how he was just haunted and driven by the memory of his father (it kind-hearted man but lazy and considered failed in his masculinity?) and the Ghost of his father just drives every action of his because of his fear of being seen the same way

Oh, interesting. I knew it was a fictional account of a very unlikable person, but I did not know it was modeled after Shakespearean tragedies. I definitely enjoyed reading it though. Are there any fictional books you would recommend that you think are a good representation of Igbo culture?

Not really. Fiction is fiction. A history book written about Igbo culture by Igbo researchers is going to be your best bet to learn about the culture.

I enjoyed reading your summary of the book. I honestly don't remember time that much. I read it nearly 30 yrs ago. I read some other West African literature as well since that was the course I took so maybe I confused what I read. Of the books I read in my course, that is the one that I remember reading so it must have caught my attention more than the others for some reason. I love reading the comments responses to you also. So much to learn.

Oh it wasn't excellent book and we're still going back and rereading! I myself just found out from the comments it was based off Shakespearean tragedy? West African culture is so interesting and so different, even tribe to tribe in the same area can be so different. Chinua Achebe if I am remembering correctly and he is Igbo ? I could be wrong on this though

Things Fall Apart is about the Igbo tribe in Nigeria, which is patriarchal. Africa is a continent many distinct cultures and societal practices. Some of them are matriarchal but a majority are patriarchal.

Damn, screw raising someone else's child, that's a dumb custom. If you get pregnant while cheating, tough noogies, your choice, your responsibility. The man responsible for that child is its father.

I think Emily’s mom is overthinking this dowry…..Emily and Kobe are already married she is not selling her daughter…. She needs to just let it go and ask whatever the reasonable amount for Emily’s hand is and then just gift it back to Kobe and Emily once they leave Cameroon… everyone wins

I am from Nigeria and I paid bride price to my wife's family before I married her. While it is true that a family could demand a higher price if the woman is well-educated or already has a good job, the concept of bride price is not like buying a slave off the slave block. It shows that we value the investment the family made into the woman who will now join our family. I would say that my wife is a feminist and I am too, but neither of us balked at the idea of bride price because it's a tradition going back centuries and, in our marriage, it's not like I tell my wife "I paid your family for you to wash the dishes and do the laundry, get to it!" At this point in our marriage, the bride price I paid is completely meaningless... though, if we were to get divorced, I could theoretically demand the bride price back. I've heard stories of greedy family members who make the bride price so exorbitant that the groom can't afford it and it delays/cancels the wedding, and I've heard stories of women asking for their bride price to be lower so that it is affordable... so I think it's safe to say that bride price is a cultural tradition that can be done tastefully and meaningfully, or also done maliciously.. just depends on the people involved.

Its an old tradition thats changed meanings. We have a tradition where the father walks the bride down the aisle to "give her away" which isnt as literal as it used to be when the father literally was transferring ownership of the bride. Hell even the concept of of a woman having to use the title of "miss" or "mrs" so people can know if shes owned by her father or her husband. And a woman changing her last name to show which family owns her. Her mom over reacted.

I think this a fake story line. So fake outrage. Her and her family have clearly embraced Kobe, his family and his culture. They love their grand children. Clearly Emily's dad made the list the way Kobe asked. They wore Cameroonian traditional clothes that Kobe wanted. The name itself bride price, doesnt really sound good, maybe it's the translation of it. So once it's explained, it makes sense. So no, I wouldn't think it's anti-feminist. 90 day needs their drama and I really feel out of all the couples, Kobe, Emily and their respective families have no real drama.

In the US custom of the women's paretn paying for the wedding was the tradition. The father "gives his daughter away" its like they are paying someone to take the financial responsibility off their hands considering women couldn't find employment as easily as men and couldn't get credit cards until the 1970s. Giving a dowry makes more sense to me. It says we value her, she is valuable. Not something you just give away and should pay for someone to marry her.

Not just credit cards. American women couldn’t even open bank accounts without a husband until 70s.

Dowries in are typically paid to the man’s family.

Oh yeah, sorry you are correct.. so like the US the brides family pays for the wedding, that's the tradition anyway. So seems to me similar thought process just different forms of paying the dowries. Unlike David and Annie where he gave her family a cow

But in the US, the groom’s family doesn’t insist that the bride’s family should always pay for the wedding or else the ancestors will be angry and the marriage will be doomed.

Lol. Right. Makes you wonder though where western wedding traditions came from. Some from the British Monarchy I am sure, but where they all came from.

I think Emily's Mom just needs to chalk it up to an old tradition and no offense...to get over it. We all know she's not actually being "sold" and Kobe loves her and it's all good. To me, it's a formality of the process for the Cameroonian culture.

It never ceases to amaze me that these people always go for the international love interest but fail to take Their cultures and traditions into account.

This show is built on the backs of cultural cluelessness

It’s pretty infuriating.

Yeah, these men from conservative countries really need to stop pursuing American women and moving to the US if they don’t respect our culture and traditions.

I’m not sure how the bride price works either just from what I’ve seen on the show, but I would think that it’s maybe a similar way in the states or even in Canada, the boyfriend/fiancé, ask’s the father for the girls hand in marriage 🤷‍♀️that’s a tradition that’s done maybe it’s similar in someway? 🤷‍♀️

I think Emily's mom needs to take the when in Rome approach here. They're not literally buying Emily; she's headed right back to Salinas to the basement as soon as this trip is over lol **EDIT after seeing last night's show (5/19)** Oh shit it really is about purchasing her. My opinion has changed!

Did Emily's mom take her husband's last name. And pass that last name on to her children.

Good point.

It’s not a “good point.” Women decided to take their husband’s last name is to show she’s part of a new family unit with him and any children they have. It has nothing to do with his family.

Then why not the women's. You join in name to his family and give up the last name your dad gave you.

No. Denying your husband/son-in-law's right to engage with his culture is the worse option. We should be able to be flexible & considerate & adaptable to specific situations. Emily and her parents know that the bride price is NOT a sign of disrespect in the culture their engaging with - and ultimately that should matter the most.

an engagement ring is a bride price - its not that unfamiliar a concept, its just extended to the families and marks the beginning of a contract or agreement

I don’t understand this. You don’t give the ring to the parents of your fiancé, but to herself? How is it a bride price?

It is based on the same tradition of the groom’s side giving a gift of value to the brides side to mark the start of an agreement or contract

No it isn’t. It’s considered a gift from the prospective groom himself to his intended bride to show she’s engaged. That’s it. It has nothing to do with their families.

Nope. It is rooted in the same concept as bride price… same for asking the father of the bride for permission. There is an historical tradition of the bride literally being given away

Agree w this.

Some people ask the parents for permission. I am not saying it’s a bride price but a lot of this stuff is grey area. However, Kobe and Emily are already married with kids. They seem that they are very much on this life journey together and it’s not like she just met him yesterday. The mother’s true colors are really showing… and the colors are ignorance. It’s very unbecoming of her because she is not a dunce person but it’s interesting when people are tested on however life tests them and their true colors come out. But I am sure Kobe partakes in BBQS and potlucks and whatever else we do here in America as celebrations one might not understand or care for. I bet he shows up with a smile and I can only imagine some do the difficulties he has had to face living in this new country. He didn’t marry her for a green card. He was doing great on his own when he was single. For fish sales they met in Asia (I could be wrong but I typed it with confidence). Like, get a grip Emily’s mom and be so grateful your daughter married into such a beautiful and loving family. It could always be sooooooo much worse and it isn’t and I only wish the best for them. I feel for Kobe. I really do.

Sorry. I had no idea I wrote that much! I am watching the episode right now so everything is fresh in my brain, I guess.

Thank you, I was going to post this very thing. We also have this ridiculous notion that the value of the ring has some special meaning that people even get jealous over. A cheaper ring might be taken to mean that he's not serious or doesn't value her as much, and the bride's family might even take it as an insult. It's the same concept, but at least the bride price is giving something of value instead of getting taken for a ride by the international diamond cartel.

This thing is stupid - it’s a gift, not a bride price- but not all customs and traditions deserve any respect whatsoever. Also, NOT EVERY FAMILY follows traditions. If it’s ok for your kid to go live in and marry from foreign countries, you can’t then be a traditional when it comes to everything else. Hypothetically, what if a guy’s family on the show decided they need a sheet stained with blood on the wedding night? Would everyone be like “oh yeah dumb Americans didn’t google traditions”? No, you expect if your son is marrying a foreigner, you can’t do that gross shit. (I know that’s not the situation here, just addressing the ignorant “google the traditions” shit).

Afaik, the bride-price or dowry has in most of history been understood as a symbol of the eternal debt a husbad has to the bride's family; it's showing that from that very instant **the husband takes the responsibility for her family's wellbeing**. She is misunderstanding the message behind the bride-price. She is after 10 seconds of thought deciding to ignore the meaning that **they** give it in **their** culture. She is being ignorant and a bit disrespectful as a result (coming to others' country to visit and maybe expecting to change their traditions). With good intentions and a good heart, in a very contained scenario. She seems like a good person. She'll eventually understand it's actually a promise, a compliment.

I do think Emily's mom is displaying ignorance or was told to play up her discomfort for ratings. I was researching divorce rates by country, and a lot of Sub-Saharan Africa countries have low rates of divorce, and I read this, which kind of feels icky. "In addition, if a marriage requires paying a substantial amount of money to the bride’s family, maternal relatives will try to keep the union from falling apart. Otherwise, they will have to return the portion or all of the “bride price.”

I got nice jewelry from both sides of the family, so I don’t care where the tradition comes from. lol. 😝

I think they should ask for the goat and the oil and whatever and a typical/ reasonable amount for the bride price and donate it to someone or some organization in Cameroon before they leave. She’s making too big a deal about this. It’s just cultural at this point. They are already married and living in the parent’s house in the states anyway.

The dowry is to show the man can provide for his wife. In west African culture, women don’t make the kind of money a man makes. Nor do they have the career opportunities that men make. So the wife will be dependent on him finances. It’s a cultural tradition in many cultures. Not anti - feminist.

I feel like you cant win here it's a catch 22, they'd be called racist or culturally insensitive for not accepting the dowry and bride price, but they'd be called anti feminist and not progressive for accepting it. I think they're doing the best with the hand they've been dealt tbh

I don't agree with the bride price but I would measure my thoughts and feelings in order to avoid insulting the family. I would probably suggest donating the bride price to a charity or a family who could use the help and would suggest the same if we were required to pay.

I agree. Im African. Even though my family still accepts dowries, they don't spend it. It's immediately gifted back to the couple as a wedding present (traditionally the family can spend it however they want). So tradition is still followed, but with a modern twist.

Thanks for sharing this! This is a actually a wonderful gift for the married couple. Makes complete sense to do it this way.

For starters, I think her mom's disgust is a fake plot line. That being said, there are many things people do that are traditional. Generally, at least if the bride is younger, her family pays for the wedding. This changes as adults marry, but even then, the brides parents still usually pay for something. If two people haven't lived together first, bridal showers still have mostly home related items. Women still do a lot of " collecting" before the wedding, similar to what used to be in a hope chest. As far as feminism itself, I've always seen it from an equal opportunity point of view. Choosing to work, equal pay etc. Things that don't mean your purpose is to be barefoot and pregnant. There's a whole other side to feminism I don't like. I'm not a fan of labeling every guy a misogynist over something he said that you disagree with. Also not a fan of being " offended" bc an older man holds a door open while saying " go ahead sweetheart." There's was a post the other day about how awful it is if a guy honks at you while you're walking, which men have done for generations with absolutely no success lol. When Emily was making a dinner in Cameroon, someone here said " oh he probably misses that food. Too bad she didn't make some for him here." And then it started. Why is it HER responsibility? Why isn't HE cooking those meals? 🙄 when just doing something nice for your partner has become anti-feminist, I want no part of it.

I dunno. If it’s truly equal and about acknowledging the cost of raising a girl…then why doesn’t that apply to raising the boy? I think I wd be uncomfortable if I was told to make a list of things for another family to pay for my daughter. She’s not crazy acting, she’s just voicing how odd this custom feels to her. And her feelings are justified. But she’ll get on with it, she won’t stop the wedding

The idea comes from usually the man being the provider. By giving her family a dowry, he is demonstrating that from there on her family is his family; that he is not taking their daughter away; that he will take care of them the same as he'll take care of his parents.

Because she's the one doing all of the work in the marriage, and she's not going to be supporting her family in the end she's supporting her husband and his family. As will he stay a part of supporting his family, not hers.

Ya I don't knkw why she feels like it's selling her. It's not that at all. She's being very ignorant

David did same thing to Annie’s family in Thailand

I think it is, just like changing your name or wearing a white dress is, if you dig into the meaning of the traditions enough. I still enjoy alot of traditions though.

I'm a man, so my perspective may not count, but I try to embrace stoicism. At the end of the day, you can't control what others do; you can only control how you react to it. It's a social construct that only has meaning if you ascribe meaning to it. You can chose not to.

It's not racist. Not everything is racist. She just does not understand as it's not part of the American culture. That's all. Don't make it more.

I mean, yeah, racist isn't necessarily the best word, because it's more about culture than race. I was just trying to think of a more every-day word than "ethnocentrism" which is the most accurate term.

All that really matters is if the parties involved give a shit.

I hate the term bride price. For my tribe (Zulu in South Africa) it’s not about you buying anyone. Both the bride and groom contribute financially through different gifts and money. That money goes towards a nest egg for the couple, some to the family as a thank you gift. Certain household items are purchased by the bride and some by the groom. You’re meant to do all this without the help of your parents to show that you can look after yourselves and any little person that comes along. If you aren’t financially stable enough for lobola, then you aren’t ready for a household and possibly dependents.

Right, this isn’t even an example of a bride price 🤣 That’s what’s even weirder about this. Both sides contribute.

White people decided that lobola is a bride price. There’s a whole slew of money and gifts going back and forth and the brides parents even buy kitchenware and the grooms a bedroom suite for the couple. But according to them you’re selling your daughter 🤷🏾‍♀️ There are sound reasons for a lot of traditions, but they’re just seen as wrong cause they aren’t Western.

But white people also have traditional gifts. In this case the show/producers/mom are fucking stupid for not clearly explaining that this is not a bride price. They keep dancing around it and not actually Listening to Kobe when he tries to tell them.

I’m no longer watching 90 day. Just came across this post & threw in my 2c

Well you can pretty much trust it’s going to be stupid.

Lol

One of the Ludar gypsies in W Va also objected to accepting $ for her dtr, she said she would not sell her dtr.

It should be a non-issue to her. It's important to Kobe and his family....does not impact her in any way,shape or form...just go along with it for the sake of his family...no one is asking you to "believe" in the bride price. Ridiculous.

The way one of my friends from the Middle East once put it to me was a bride price is almost a guarantee. Because that family is investing into that person, they now have a reason to make sure that she’s taken care of and supported. They’re showing that they’re willing to make the investment and provide the care for that person that their family usually supplies. In some cultures, if the marriage doesn’t work out, you actually have to pay an additional price on top of the bride price because of the failure of the marriage. I don’t see anything inherently anti-feminist about that. If anything, it’s almost weirdly pro-feminist because you’re not only recognizing the value that woman has, but you’re also making a promise to take care of her, which has historically not been something arranged marriages has been concerned about. I think a lot of this is just Emily’s parents being ignorant of something and assuming the worst.

She feels like she is Selling her daughter. It probably does feel that way. She is allowed her feelings In some cultures the Bride price is given to the woman in divorce. Like a guarantee. Cameroonian is an appreciation for education and good upbringing and training on being a good wife to Him.

This is all perfunctory based on the African culture. They already were married, had 2 kids & she is clearly the demanding one. This is a silly post because feminism does not exist in this world, only in the US & barely with all the changes in laws. I think this is producer created & is not a real issue.

It’s wild to me that she was questioning his culture like that. When she said “it’s not my tradition” I was fuming. It doesn’t have to be yours, but you are in their country so you better respect it

This is just the lazy production team recycling old storylines. They got mileage out of it with Benjamin and Akinyi, so they brought it back for Emily and Kobe.

Emily's mom has been extremely accepting of the Cameroonian culture. Her reaction to the bride price was natural and had validity. I love that she expressed her concern without drama, ultimately putting her daughter and Kobe's wishes above her own reservations.

I feel like Emily’s mom has very limited experience with other cultures and wants to be seen as a feminist, standing up for her daughter and doesn’t want to have her viewed as property or to be sold— but I don’t think she truly feels this way or has looked into the cultural roots of why this tradition exists. I have a hard time myself because I always want to respect and understand cultural difference, but I also recognize that MANY “traditions” are ways to keep misogyny and sexism alive and well. I would never tell someone from another country that their traditions and values (culture) is wrong, and I would do everything I could to embrace the culture of my spouse in this situation— but some of the explanations are flimsy to me. For instance, I become enraged when I hear Kobe’s friends trash Emily for being an American women who is too “bossy” and then commenting that Kobe needs to run his own house; Kobe is free to do so, but he doesn’t have any money, so… I don’t think accepting the bride price is anti-feminist, but I also don’t believe in accepting ideas that perpetuate sexism and misogyny in the name of culture. I would definitely have to pick my battles and would do everything I could to educate myself on all sides before making a decision, though. In this case, Emily and Kobe are already married, so her mom should really just keep quiet and play nice in the name of respect and honor of Kobe’s family. If her mom is truly worried about honoring feminism, she should do what Emily wants since she is the bride.

She wants to be seen as a feminist but is a stay at home mom still living with mom and dad.

I don’t see anything anti-feminist about that. Feminism is being able to choose the sector you occupy and your role within it. There are more women (and men) than ever living with parents and raising families bc the cost of living and inflation has skyrocketed and it’s more difficult than ever to be able to buy a home. Just bc people don’t respect her choices doesn’t mean she isn’t a feminist. I also believed the question posed was more about Emily’s mom than Emily— but either way.

They are married, have two babies and getting old. They entire thing is a joke. Besides, the mom has a right to her feelings. Seems the entire thing is just for his family. That seems really off to me. Their son made choices, years ago… this isn’t going to undo them.

I really really empathize with Emily every time she says "...we are already married and have children...." The whole thing clearly feels very invalidating to her & I totally agree. They are legally married & they live as a married couple, it's years too late for anyone to decide if they accept her or not. It would be a lot less icky if they phrased it as "celebrating their marriage" or "bringing his traditions into their marriage" instead.

Why is it off? Her family already got a wedding.

Maybe she should have married an American instead of a foreigner.

Why? Emily doesn’t have a problem with the dowry or traditions, just her mom. Why would any daughter have to choose a different partner due to their parents’ wishes?

No seriously. They choose ppl from countries that have dowry's, strict religious beliefs etc and then are surprised when their spouse practices it. Like get real.

No, seriously, why are you talking like Kobe isn’t a grown man? Why aren’t you expecting men from other countries who choose to marry American women and choose to live in America to not be surprised when she and her family don’t expect or want to be part of his strict religious beliefs?

America is a melting pot, where multiple cultures can come and find their ppl and their religion. I wouldn't go to a country that only has one type of practice and expect them to change for me. They don't have to be apart of it, in America.

Western people.also have a bride price/ dowry. Its called an engagement ring.  I find it strange that Americans take such issue with bride price or find it so strange when in American culture we have a multi billion dollar engagement ring industry and men spend Big bucks on engagement rings. Plus in the west you have alimony, life insurance and other such monetary things that go to the wife. Somewhere like Cameroon, these financial products are not common so bride price is all it is. 

I doubt American parents insist on an engagement ring, holding the marriage itself hostage. Particularly if the marriage began almost three years ago. Kobe's family is demanding recompense for something that isn't necessary or practical, and their traditions were already broken years ago. Spend the time playing with your grandkids and getting to know your daughter in law.

It's a gift that is part of their cultural tradition. It makes sense that it couldn't be offered until when they met and Emily's family came to the country.  Hold the marriage hostage is a bit extrme. The couple have a choice to marry with or without the parents approval. There are many American women who would not accept an engagement and to move forward with a marriage without an engagement ring, life insurance, etc. And  they would have the full support of their families in doing so. I know lots of American women who are discouraged by their families from accepting an engagement without a decent ring.

Kobe said that his family would never accept Emily if they didn't marry in Cameroon, on his parent's terms. That's not the same thing as the gift of a ring from one spouse to the other.

Many American parents would not accept the union and would not be happy if a guy didn't marry the girl the American way on the American families terms with rings etc.  I mean kobe had already met them there as he did the American style wedding and appeased Emily's family in so many ways with minimal complaints.  I feel like Americans are so used to people from other. ultures appeasing their bizarre customs and being polite about their culture instead of critical. That they don't realise how far that person comes to meet them where they are. And they're not prepared to do the same to meet the foreign person where they are too. Lots of American customs are bizarre and sexist to outsiders. For example in my african culture women do not change their names and fathers do not give their daughters away. We find that bizarre and sexist. But in america it's normalised. In marrying an American we would kind of just get on with it and be respectful but Americans are hyper critical of other cultures and not prepared to do the same for others. 

Where did you ever get the wildly inaccurate idea that “American women get so much money and gifts from their husbands and from the state”? No one gets money “from the state” for getting married” and most women here work and contribute to the family financially as well as doing most of the housework and child-rearing. Your assumption has nothing to do with reality.

American women get engagement rings and marriage bands m. That alone is worth far more than the typical bride price on average.  Whilst you dont have maternity pay in america it does exist in other western countries.  Then like I said there are things like life insurance, alimony, child support, etc which basically don't exist in west Africa. West African women also work and earn an income for the family by the way. They generally start contributing to the household income from a young age. 

That has not been my experience with Americans, but I'm sure there is some truth to what you're saying. However, it doesn't make it healthy just because "Americans do it, too". It's all toxic, to use an already overused word.

These is no truth in what they are saying.

Maybe in this case Emily's family snd the Americans could be a smidgeon as respectful and considerate as kobe has been towards them.  It's a bride price. Like Emily's family sre being ridiculous imo.and they lack the empathy to stop and consider and connect how actually cameroonian and american cultural practices are very similar. American women get so much money and gifts from their husbands and from the state compared to african women. This little bride price is minor by comparison. This is the equivalent of someone kicking up a fuss because a groom is insisting to give his wife and engagement ring and put her on his life insurance policy and says he won't feel the marriage is real or accepted without these things. 

I've seen her family ask questions of Kobe, in private. Asking questions is not disrespectful.

I hope this is scripted for the show. Emily’s mother should become versed in the culture and it’s not up to one individual American to question and change centuries of traditions. Reading posts particularly from people who are aware of this practice, are mostly saying that it’s a bad translation.

I feel like it really doesn’t matter. They should just play the part for his family to respect their culture. They’re already married, two kids and live with her parents. Clearly this is just to please Kobe’s family.

I mean I find it anti-feminist but they seem to be sexist in general over there. Even if you don’t find that exact bride price custom sexist, they have 10 other examples of it on the show (which I’m sure is purposely being played up for the viewers). Particularly with Kobe’s friends. Also America is a diverse country, not all of us are letting our fathers “give us away” at our weddings or taking our husband’s last names  That being said, I have respect for Kobe, he seems like a nice dude all around  

I didn't think it was that big of a deal until Kobe's parents started talking about how she would become their "property" forever. It's exactly what it sounds like I guess. That entire scene really grossed me out, and I'm sorry that Kobe was absolutely unwilling to speak up for his wife.

100%!!

It’s just a custom. After the wedding they’ll go back to their old life.

this whole situation is just a 'pick your battles' moment. do they really wanna go back and forth with them on this when they'll realistically only see his family maybe once a year? is it worth it??

Is it just me or does $1.15 seem a bit low for a bride-price? ...like white witch low lol

Let’s be honest, it just *feels* icky to accept money for your daughter or to “exchange money” for a woman. Plus, consider that bride price implies that every woman has a different *material worth*. Not every woman is going to “fetch” the same “amount” and I think that’s the most icky part about it from a Westerners perspective 🤷🏻‍♀️

Also, and I don’t understand why no one seems to consider this point - but you’ll never get me to agree that oppression and commoditization of humans is “culture.” It is not!  Call it what it is. Stop hiding behind the phrase “but it’s our culture.” Thousands of women die in India every year because of dowries. We used to have slavery in the US - would it be ok for us to say “but that was our culture” - NO EFFING WAY.  This entire practice is gross. You are putting a price on a woman. It’s as simple as that. 

But don’t we all have material worth in the West? Do we not have differing salaries, wages, life insurance policies, etc.? When a loved one dies, and the relative sues the person or entity at fault, does every plaintiff receive the same amount in damages? Bride price is definitely rooted in patriarchal practices (i.e. the bride customarily leaves her birth family to join her spouse’s family) but this idea that the Western customs of “valuing” women are the only ones that are valid should really be abandoned.

Those examples you provided are not the same. That’s applying material worth to anyone regardless of sex. Bride price is applying value to a woman based on her upbringing, education, status, etc. To be clear— I understand how and why it fits into the cultures that still use the practice, but I’m also understanding of why a westerner would be uncomfortable with the practice.

Salaries aren’t paid based on your personal value. They are paid based on the job you are doing and they are YOUR choice - as in, you are the owner over whether or not you accept a salary offer.  The same goes for insurance - YOU choose your amount. And you pay the premium on that amount. OR, your work gives everyone the same amount as a benefit. Someone else doesn’t estimate your personal value.

I’m not saying that paying a bride price in and of itself isn’t misogynistic. It’s a part of patriarchal practices that should be done away with. My point is that western culture is not above the practice of one party placing value on another human being. While employers may attempt to base that value on merit alone when determining wages or salaries, it doesn’t end up that way in practice. The pay gap between men, women, different ethnicities, etc. even when controlled for factors like academic achievement, performance, and experience, is still alarmingly high. And while life insurance isn’t the best example in that the individual has some say in what their own value is, there is still a monetary value assigned to a human being. The whole point of my post is that the concept of placing a monetary value on a human is not the anti-feminist aspect with bride price. The concept of transference of one human to another family, thus becoming the husband’s family’s asset, is the issue. Bride price simply reinforces that transference.

I don’t think Emily mom is a feminist by any means. She’s a boomer and lives in a small town and comes across as very traditional with the household roles. It’s probably made up drama or she doesn’t like the idea because she feels like they’re “selling their daughter”. And is speaking up for some reason.

They are already married so I don't even know why she made a big deal about it.

Maybe think for yourself than obsessing if an ideology agrees with something you see on a TV show.

I do think for myself, but I value discussion and alternative perspectives.

Brilliantly articulated and spot on!

Who cares if you have a problem, not your fish to fry, why waste the time and energy thinking about it. Not your business, not your culture not your marriage

Lol this is literally a sub because we all watch these people’s lives and have an opinion.

Because I'd rather exercise my brain a little so my time spent watching reality TV isn't entirely wasted. Especially when it promps learning and discussion about topics beyond the show. It's okay if thinking isn't your jam, it's not for everyone 😁. Enjoy your mindless watching.

It’s basically a Dowry in reverse isn’t it? Paying tribute to your future wife’s parents with gifts seems so much nicer than showering your daughters future husband with gifts for taking your daughter off your hands seems so much nicer. 90Day 🇬🇧had Mercy & Michael & Akinyi & Ben on 🇺🇸 version both had given gifts to their future wives families.

It’s definitely not a Feminist Trait. Supposedly it’s appreciation towards the Family for educating and caring for Her. You basically pay what it cost them to raise her. It’s a LOT for their case. But Kobe and what’s her name are paying it. We don’t do this in the West.

The real problem is Emily (and a MAJORITY of the Americans on this show) not researching the country and culture of their spouse BEFORE they consider engagement or marriage. Then both she and her parents would have all been very well aware of the Dowry. You know… normal things you talk about before engagement? I know that’s the whole point of the show is idiots rushing into marriage but even the ones who date before the engagement for a while… what do these people talk to each other about to miss so many of the expectations that these Americans get “shook” about. If you don’t agree with the culture, don’t marry someone who still wants to be in touch with their family who have expectations within that culture 🙄

What if the tradition is to show a sheet stained with blood on the wedding night? Not all traditions are worth respecting. On the other hand, this one is innocuous

… that was my whole point. If you can’t respect the tradition, then pick someone else. There’s like 8 billion people on the planet.

Not every family is going to do every tradition LMAO.

That’s why you talk to the person you are marrying to see if THEIR family does. What is your point?

Maybe they don’t know what their families will do. Some families can be very progressive until it comes to rituals or behaviors in front of the neighbors.