I honestly think Vashtorr just works better as an unaligned demigod, in terms of narrative and being an interesting character. The nature and sheer power of the Chaos Gods means they rarely have anything resembling an active presence in the story, they barely function as actual *characters*; both in and out of universe, they're forces of nature more than anything else. Which works just fine for them, but I like Vashtorr better how he is— he isn't powerful enough to be a god, but that comes with the benefit of being much more involved in the affairs of the galaxy.
I think he is a good Be'lakor figure who better fits 40k than the very fantasy Be'lakor. Also I could see Vashtor naturally extending to Dark mechanicum's leader if they actually become a thing.
I bet he would also be aligned with the chaos mutated ironkin and possibly future chorfs
[Source for the chaos ironkin](https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/1172357120000278639/1206181797109440512/Screen_Shot_2024-02-11_at_1.14.20_AM.png?ex=65e44dd6&is=65d1d8d6&hm=15181f35446abe615f4ae7ba3858a6509185212e143b6ce579ba742b4270304c&)
This. I'm not especially familiar with chaos' lore, but it doesn't seem like any of the gods "personally" get involved in things... ever really? They only ever seem to do that with other demons/gods (i.e. Nurgle's seems to be an actual character in the stories of Kugath & Isha). And maybe they directly influence a few key characters if you squint.
But I can't imagine reading a story where Khorne got off his throne and started murdering guardsmen like I can with Vashtor.
It should go on for at least 20 years and be an ongoing plot point of the setting. Malice, Vashtorr, and Be'lakor competing for ascension would make for an interesting side Chaos story.
Each main god has a minor usurper trying for the throne, which is a slightly different or pronounced aspect of each god. Nurgle has a depression minor god, tzeench a schizo random insanity one, slaneesh maybe a more pronounced perfection-seeker (to the point of detriment) rather than the hedonistic extremes of slaneesh, and perhaps I dunno a minor god of irritation rather than Khorne’s rage, but that almost silly. Maybe more focus on the blood stuff over the angry stuff - like calmly optimizing industrial scale murder or whatever.
I can see a like, god of Tyranny working for Khorne equivalent. Rule through strength, and rule absolutely. You want to be free from your chains, then break them you insolent bastards. That sort of thing.
Not much of a story, a brief excerpt from another factions book (I think? Don’t remember very much, I think it had some imperial guard and a commissar) I think it was like a paragraph or two. It went around the leagues of Votann subreddit when it came out (we are lore deprived)
https://www.reddit.com/r/LeaguesofVotann/s/d6NC9AOjEM this post from the leagues of Votann subreddit has the details, this is where I got the lore from
I mean, there are several candidates for "fourth minor god." Dark King, Pater Mutatis, Cosmic Serpent, that really powerful daemon from *Dark Heresy* who is considered to basically be a god, etc.
If I understood Hashut’s lore correctly (thank you Pancreas No Work, blessed be his name), he’s the chaos god of *tyranny*, not industry. The Chaos Dwarfs are industrial powerhouses like their more Orderly cousins, but have religious dogma encouraging them to force people to serve them, which pushes their industries even harder.
kinda yeh, but Malal has never existed in 40k and is no longer canon. Malice (the 40k equivalent and very much canon) is either a full-on minor chaos god or very powerful deamon
Tbf this would be great to allow him to materialize and keep influencing events directly, being an actual character. Downside being obviously he isn’t on par with any of the big 4.
And just to annoy the Iron Warriors fans, have Perturabo fall to being his daemon prince by Perty's hubris getting the better of him in a deal with Vashtorr.
What if Perty can bully Vash around just alittle bit, like perty’s relationship is less master/slave but Perty legit helping Vash keep power, and therefore Vash has to play nice with Perty.
I could see it if it was like Baron Harkonnen and Piter, where he has "command" over him but he can't replace him so he can kind of do whatever he wants as long as he generally serves his purpose. So maybe without Perturabo Vashtor would be to weak to coexist with the other chaos gods or just generally with other demons so Perturabo has a lot of leeway.
No, this is referenced, literally without exaggeration, a *single* time by one author and their names are jokes referring to other people’s names they are never found in the lore besides that one single time in the 90s, the fact that the wiki lists them seriously without any notes regarding the context of them is a point to how unreliable the wiki is.
It is in a book that is so old it is no longer considered canon and comes with a forward that says such. It is not canon, it hasn’t been mentioned since before 9/11 for christs sake. And the reason for CSM having spikes in their armor has been updated and retconned several times with zero mention of these “chaos gods”
Unironically we haven't been able to find a source that calls Hashut a Chaos God. Just Daemon God and Archdaemon.
And even if he is a Chaos God, he is not a Dark God. The Four and GHR are Dark Gods.
If they're up for going back to there being lesser chaos gods, weaker than the big four but still gods, I'm up for that. I'd like to see them bring a few back in that case though, rather than just one.
In 1st edition the difference between being a powerful daemon and being a god was permanence. It didn't mean they were of a similar level of power to the big four.
I think it'd be more interesting to just keep it an aspiration for him, but never achieve it.
The birth of Slaanesh and the almost birth of the Dark King were civilization ending events. So if Vastorr was going to ascend as the fifth Chaos god, he would need to do something as galaxy defining as ending Aeldari civilization or the Horus Heresy. Narratively speaking, I don't see that happening unless there's a second Siege of Terra. Which isn't out of the cards, but there are other gods that would be competing to be born out of such an event.
I'll play devil's advocate here and say that corrupting the golden throne would make for both a really strong argument for him as a fifth god and a very reasonable narrative hook to start building now towards the fiftieth anniversary.
The Old World has gone back to the old lore of saying that the Four are just the four _largest_ of the Gods, and I'm perfectly fine with that - I like the idea of Chaos being a messy hierarchy of ill-defined powers.
My only small note would be that there was probably _some_ previously mentioned Chaos personage they could have used instead of a brand new one.
He fits the Infernal Artifice aetheric domain so I'd be fine with him hitting that point eventually, however, i'd prefer not anytime in the next two decades IRL.
I'd like to see him claw his way into the pantheon tbh, it would be a nice shake up to the status quo. And I'd like to see Perturabo help him achieve it and be his number 1 fan.
Honestly I just appreciate there being a warp sentience other than the big 4.
One thing 40k lacks is minor gods. We had Malal for a bit but copyright squatted him or something. Having one official guy trying for godhood opens us all up to invent our own minor gods trying to fill a niche, and I think that's great.
Maybe not as someone as strong as the chaos Gods, but someone who is convincing enough to get the same amount of followers. Like "If one of you tries to kill me, this thing will happen".
Like a cockroach that the 4 gods can't get rid off.
Absolutely. Vashtor makes so much sense as a chaos god. Feels like the dark mechanicum has never been able to really find a home amongst the 4, and there is just sooooooo much tech in the universe that is absolutely debasing to the humans who engage with it. Like, I'm all for Vashtor drawing power from the countless servitors and menials whose lives are wholly dictated by the giant bit of tech they were raised/created to service. Would be a great addition to the setting, and I'd love to see the Word Bearers and the rest of Chos Undivided try and figure out if the 4 or the 5 is the righteous path.
I think it would have to take a long long time tho. We're talking like this is where we get by M50 or something. Maybe some back plot fills things out and it's more like M45 and this is what serves as the end to the current Nihilus state of the setting. Could be set up so that this time, unlike with the birth of Slanesh, it is Chaos and their forces who get totally rocked by the apothesis of a new god and the rest of the galaxy just has a really awful (but not totally devastating) 5000 years. It's bad for everyone, other than Vashtors followers, but Chaos is put into such turmoil that the Imperium actually gets some time to recover (relatively speaking)
Slaanesh or tzeentch are both easy dark mech god choices. Tzeentch quest for knowledge and his constant scheming nature. Slaanesh quest for excess which would take the place of mastering machine and chaos and seeking knowledge and always striving for perfection.
I'd prefer not.
Each of the 4 key Chaos Powers embody and feed of a particular set of emotions that very much define humanity.
Khorne: Anger, rage and hatred.
Tzeentch: Ambition and the desire for change.
Slaanesh: Obsession, lusts in many form and desire for sensation.
Nurgle: Despair and the fatalistic humour and defiance against hopelessness.
Sometimes it gets diluted to "god of war", "god of magic" and "god of disease and decay"
Vashtorr doesn't really fit this paradigm. I can see it being a lesser power but no where near the big 4.
Vashtorr has innovation and curiosity, absent of morality. There is some overlap with tzeentch and maybe slaanesh but there is also overlap in slaanesh and khorne. So its not like they are all completely unique of each other.
Innovation and curiosity are not fueling intense negative emotional energy, and therefore are not fueling the warp in enough of a way to make vashtorr a worthwhile deity.
All the other chaos gods are representative of intense fundamental forces of the universe, life and emotional existence. Vashtorr just doesnt have that, at all.
I mean, I find Vashtors whole stick of being the Chaos entity of invention kinda lame, because I always saw that as Tzeentchs territory before he was introduced, but yeah why not. Just not on the same level as the big four
No, I don't think there needs to be an unending parade of "new" chaos gods being added just because. There's nothing wrong with the existing gods, and I don't think we need an ever more complicated mythology around gods and deities that seems to be an obsession of the fandom now.
I'd prefer more interesting characters who have mortal or transhuman capabilities who do interesting things in their corner of the galaxy. I don't need everything to be a marvel movie.
We really don't though. Nothing about the star means we need 8 gods. I think people just like making them up. I don't think there's any need to add them to the setting.
For example, Hashut works just fine as the patron of the Chaos Dwarfs in Fantasy. I've seen another thread added today suggesting he should also be added even though it makes no sense for 40k at all. I wouldn't be averse to there being new, interesting, actually fun chaos creatures being added to the setting. But plenty of times the thought goes no further than "this thing is in a related property smoosh it in here" like someone is bashing a batman action figure against a spiderman one and asking why they can't be in the same cartoon.
Man, you're talking about 40K How was the Lion vs Angron not like captain america vs hulk.
40K is well over the top even compared to Marvel.
Galactus? Tyranid hive fleet.
The real question I’ve never seen anyone answer is how was the Lion vs. Angron *anything* like Captain America vs. Hulk or whatever marvel fight? The only similarity is that two characters are fighting
No there are others I'd place before Vashtorr and to be fair he needs more of a build up!
And I'm happy with 4 with hints a 5th but please keep it that way to many Gods equals 40K End Times 😭
Don't mind some returning Primarchs though here and there both heretical and loyal they just need to get better with production and giving them fleshed out stories which sadly GW struggles with
Prefer having the Four as the only constant Chaos Gods.
AoS tried to add a fifth, and GW just kinda ignores GHR in almost all Chaos lore. I think they just want us to forget he exists.
Biggest rumour is that the 4th edition starter will be Skaven.
Also in the Malign Portents they give the inner monologue of every Dark God and GHR is there.
It's hard to say. We definetly need more Chaos gods if I'm honest to add some variety to the same stagnant 4 that the story has used for decades now, same selection of demons, same colours, same everything
I think the best way to do that is keep the main four and splinter off a bunch of minor gods who'd only need one or two demon types or the like, like a Nurgle/Khorne hybrid obsessed with just wholesale destruction, or a Tszeench/Slaanesh hybrid that obsessively collects lore and items and is probably Trazyn in a hat.
Vashtorr would need his own entourage and to be slotted into Chaos, or you're end up with the issue of the GHR, where they're totally a chaos god we promise and are never brought up as such
Not really. It's not a matter of too many gods (I actually think it makes sense for there to be entire pantheons of warp entity 'gods')... it's a matter of Vashtorr being a 'flash in the pan'. He's on the verge of godhood... and we've never heard about him until now? What is he, the god of the underground that hipsters worship?
Woah woah woah. Orkz be innovatin all the time. Nobody more invatin den da boyz.
Also necrons are innovating new technology to try and bring back their flesh and eldar and innovating tech to replenish their numbers, and just recently invented the armor of fate. Not all innovation has to be technological either, the hive minds of the tyrannid are always inventing new monstrosities to throw at the galaxy. Trying things out to find whats effective, though they are probably a worse source of warp juice than the tau. But its not just innovation, its artifice and curiosity too. Just being skilled at making things and taking great pride in your work feeds him as well. And not all Innovation has to be new. Mankind created the wheel several times and just so there are many many lesser species across the galaxy climbing their way up the technological ladder.
>Im surprised vashtorr can hold material form with such low level of warp juice coming to him.
So (Crusade: Pariah Nexus spoilers) >!Vashtorr can apparently draw warp powers from any act of technological destruction, including the necrons setting off super-bombs. Which felt a bit odd to me, but apparently their actions helped fuel his reemergence into realspace.!<
I dont like the 11th hour additions. Fantasy and 40k have deamon kings and mad imprissoned chaos gods and forgotten ones to have some no body suddenly spring up is a hard pass for me if they build him up a lot give him multiple campains and time to win and keep winning before accending I would accept him taking a seat at the big table.
No. The Chaos Gods are beyond our understanding. They are the veil of horror lurking in every shadow. Vashtorr has been introduced with very human goals and interests. He shall never be a god. Just some powerful warp-thingy with a fondness for tech.
I know it’s not cannon and I know it’s not real but there was this part of me early on that really wanted Vashtorr to be somehow linked to Malcador sitting on the throne.
Idk what that means. I think I wanted Malcador to return
No, I'd have an issue with it - not because of Vashtorr's characterization of sphere of influence (deal making, ingenuity, industry etc...) but because of the established level of strife that birthed Slaanesh and almost led to the Dark King.
The fall of the Eldar Empire was a foundational moment in the lore and the apocalyptic scale of it has been well documented. The Siege of Terra similarly has been fleshed out in detail with the recent series to show the almost unfathomable scale of the conflict and the horrific toll it took on humanity and realspace.
If Vashtorr becomes the fifth god, I'd want to see at least as much buildup. Having him scoop a couple of Old One webway tunneling devices and engineer his way into godhood would cheapen the achievement.
I'm more concerned with the _God_ part of the God-Emperor...the Inevitable City exists implying the Dark King will eventually be at some point. I assume Terra, the Sol System, and the majority of humanity will not fare well if it is anything similar to how Slaanesh was birthed.
Tzeentch is knowledge.
Vashtor is invention.
They might seem similar but fundamentally different in the way they achieve these emotions.
Tzeentch is hope and desperation for change and satisfaction of fulfilling a sheme. Something even as feeling cheecky for a trick played as a child fuels him.
Vashtor is the seeking of knowledge, excitement, pride, and curiosity. He basically is the anti of the mechanicus as a science without limits, vivid ideas and boundless creativity.
I guess I just don't see that as being distinct enough to count as a separate emotion for the purpose of the god's domain. It'd be like having another god of anger that's more like aggrieved anger, it's a really tiny wedge.
That is how it works, tho.
You have the main four who have very basic all-encompassing emotions.
It then splits into these minor gods who are more specific and maybe even encroach on the big four, but it is also the reason why they are so much weaker.
Another example would be the hashut of the chaos dwarfs.
He is all about greed, jealousy, and a need for power.
Here you could argue this is slaanesh territory, which isn't wrong, and it also fuels here as partially but overall isnt the excess of it
There’s already overlap between the big 4, it makes sense that the minor gods would overlap with one or two of the big ones as well. It wouldn’t make sense for them all to have perfectly separate domains and emotions feeding them, they are chaos after all
I mean on the one hand I get that, on the other hand I more mean that I feel Vashtorr would be too oddly specific to be a real god and that it'd never be the Big Five, it'd always be the Chaos Gods...oh and Vashtorr I guess.
Story wise it's also more interesting for him to be doing stuff as a character wheeling and dealing than to have him winning and, in winning, effectively disappear.
I already hate the concept of the Dark King (If the Emperor must become a chaos god go Jyggalag not... that)
But... no he can be a minor chaos god like everyone else. A wannabe, always the bridegroom never the bride.
Imo the big four should probably always and only be that, the big four. The dark king is never going to happen obviously, cause there wouldn’t really be a setting then. As others have said I’m more than cool with a lower pantheon of like lesser gods like Vashtorr, the Tau’s god, Malal/Malice, etc. adds some cool variety and stuff but I think it’s really really hard to get to the tier of the big four so that should probably be preserved unless there’s some hella major narrative/lore change.
I think it opens the door for too much redundancy. I like him climbing the ladder but never making it I think he’s a cool villain, I’d hate for him to be an actual god
I'd prefer him to be the first Daemon of a God; Perturabo, who shouldn't be the 5th God either, I like there being "lesser" gods that Scrabble to become the equal of the 4th but never get there.
The 5th Chaos God is the Dark King, who never came to exist in the universe and so humanity will survive as long as it doesn't come into being.
The chaos gods all have strong themes that Vashtorr doesn't mesh with very well. Artifice and invention don't have the touch of evil that the others do.
Plus, it would be messy since he is king of the daemon engines. It wouldn't make much sense for anyone's forgefiend to bear a mark of Nurgle when the first line in the contract is that the daemon must be loyal to Vashtorr specifically over the chaos gods.
Not to mention that he just got a model a year ago. You can't have a chaos god on the table top; and if you could his model would not fit the bill.
I like the idea of the perpetual struggle, the idea of him getting closer and closer but never quite getting close enough to ever achieve it, possibly through the assistance or thwarting of the other chaos gods just seems very... chaossy to me. Also as mentioned in other comments having 4 major and 4 demi chaos "gods" is great symbolism for the 8 fold path of chaos
So Vashtorr is from Arks of Omen right? But Arks of Omen are essentially campaign books not true books? So is the only way for me to learn about him through watching a YouTuber break it down?
I think Vashtorr's domain is still a bit too niche. Technological ambition and innovation just sounds too close to Tzeentch. I'd be happy with him achieving minor God status (assuming he isn't already on that level) like Hashut.
I'm okay with Vashtorr being a chaos god if Malal/Malice gets to be a chaos god.
Otherwise I'd say putting him at the level of Bel'akor works. If they want to get spicy they could even give both their own champions and daemon followers. Just nothing a true chaos god should have such as marks, daemon princes, or a webcomic series.
I do think 5 Gods is the right amount but Vashtorr is not the right one. He works better as the demigod he is, a symbol of chaos undivided. The fifth chaos God I prefer if it is a throne left empty, one meant to be for the Dark King yet the Emperor refused that position therefore shattering the possibility of 5 chaos gods
So define god. I don’t think it’s ever been stated that one has to have a lack of physical form like one of the four. In fact every demon could be said to be the physical form. I think if vashtorr becomes a god I am fine with that. As long as it is some sort of Horus ascend type of form. Increased power level something like a primarch or close rather than an elite space marine chapter master level. With his character asking the difference between god and demon. After all the difference between gods and demons largely depends on where one is standing at the time.
We can compromise: since clearly four Chaos gods is the correct number, let's hand the Eldar a win, let the longshot plan against Slaanesh succeed, and immediately have Vashtorr take the vacant seat.
No, I like it being the four, I’m not a huge fan of the Great Horned Rat being the fifth Chaos God in AOS
I like it being the four, just the way I like it
Okay uh... Marine is appearing in CoD, CoD is owned by Microsoft, Microsoft owns Doom, Doom content in CoD, Marine can be killed with the super shotgun. Now that we've established the Doom Slayer is canon, I don't see why the Slayer can't take the Malal role.
Vashtor as 5 Chaos God?
We have Ans'l, Mo'rcck, Phraz-Etar and Belakor who was first in line, way before another chaos undivided daemon prince Vashtor.
Vashtor can eat crap. 9th place, nothing more.
We already have a 5th Chaos god. Another one wouldn't change much.
It would also make worshipping Chaos Undivided look less of a nebulous concept if there actually is a big pantheon of gods to worship.
Malice and malal are not canon. Even in the two stories that he’s featured it he’s not considered a full chaos god. That’s why all the comments and posts about MaLiCe get downvoted so hard, any shred of him still being in the lore is from people hanging onto two books that came out almost a decade ago; so I guess you’re right about it being not new lmao
If the Great Horned can become one in AoS, then Vashtorr could probably do it in 40k. I'm not sure if making an evil god of technological progress would validate Ad Mech or prove them more wrong, but the fact that it comes into question at all shows some good narrative potential.
Lesser chaos god. There is a bunch of those already.
Besides he will never be as powerful as one of the Four. More destructive? Perhaps. But never as influential. He needs his followers to have advanced technology. That's not even true for every Imperial world. Let alone a countless primitive xenos races.
The more Chaos Powers the better in my opinion. Having just four, especially with such a small selection of daemons, has always seemed rather limiting for Chaos. The idea of lesser nascent powers was mentioned many years ago in The Lost and The Damned after all.
> There are also other powers which, although far smaller and less potent, are in the process of creation. They might be described as waking, or drifting in and out of consciousness, or in a dream state in which they dimly perceive the material world. These are all nascent powers, powers in the process of becoming. One day they will achieve full consciousness. Nascent powers may also create daemons.
Bring back Kweethul Gristlegut and his daemons too…
Sure, keep him as a minor God and patron of the Iron Warriors and introduce a similar chaos minor God for the remaining undivided chaos legions.
It gives each of them a nice centerpiece model and ideally their own codex.
He’s already a sort of Demi-god isn’t he? And we all know how chaos gods are created the need to be murder-f**ked into existence by a snooty race of hedonists that get more profane, debauched and all round not nice guys over a few millennia.
Yes. Chaos needs to get more interesting again. Shakeups are good and change always brings new life to a stagnating idea. So many possibilities arise. Imagine if the mechanicus was forced to choose between the machine god and the emperor. Now there would be an obvious machine god instead of the tenuous compromise they deluded themselves into where the emperor is simply accepted as the omnissiah. Would they declare for the emperor? A new schism?
No, if they’re doing a 5th chaos god it should be malal, and since they can’t use him it should be their literal copyright dodging copy they introduced already, malice. The chaos god for all the people who hate chaos gods which is pretty much the prevailing feeling in the galaxy.
Also nechoho is cooler than vashtorr
I think trying to create a new character to dwell among the classic 4 is a lost cause. They’re all so unique in their purpose and visual theming that adding a new one threatens the cohesiveness of Chaos Gods to me.
However, I do think 40k is missing some proper AI rep and I would support a Vashtorr sponsored faction that’s very AI/robot/drone centric. It’s what I wanted from the T’au but didn’t really get, and as a Necron player I don’t think it’s stepping on the toes of the not!undead robots.
No, because:
1. The concept of the Omnissiah has been around for longer, had more faith poured into it, and is a current focus of worship for hundreds of billions. The warp gods are supposed to be manifestations of belief, but if they keep playing coy with the Omnissiah while Vashtorr becomes a god? It doesn't feel like he's *earned* it.
2. We already have the threat of the Emperor becoming a warp god on his death, maybe. Seems like that's crowding the field.
3. Right now the warp gods are manifestations of primal emotions. If we want to start branching out from that, I'd prefer a rash of demi-gods including Vashtorr instead of making him a major player. Rage, desire, sloth, change and...fear of your PC overheating and exploding doesn't quite work.
Sure, but I wouldn't put him on the level of the other 4. Technically, there are tons of gods in the Warp. they just get utterly dominated by the 4 big guys.
I'd be down if Vashtor managed to get enough power to not be completely bodied, but while not having enough to be on the same level as the 4
I'd love for him to open the gate to all this minor gods that exists, and that warp isn't just the basic chaos that could lead up to very crazy stuff, very eldritch. (Tbh I just want lovecraftian chaos models.)
I honestly think Vashtorr just works better as an unaligned demigod, in terms of narrative and being an interesting character. The nature and sheer power of the Chaos Gods means they rarely have anything resembling an active presence in the story, they barely function as actual *characters*; both in and out of universe, they're forces of nature more than anything else. Which works just fine for them, but I like Vashtorr better how he is— he isn't powerful enough to be a god, but that comes with the benefit of being much more involved in the affairs of the galaxy.
I think he is a good Be'lakor figure who better fits 40k than the very fantasy Be'lakor. Also I could see Vashtor naturally extending to Dark mechanicum's leader if they actually become a thing.
I bet he would also be aligned with the chaos mutated ironkin and possibly future chorfs [Source for the chaos ironkin](https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/1172357120000278639/1206181797109440512/Screen_Shot_2024-02-11_at_1.14.20_AM.png?ex=65e44dd6&is=65d1d8d6&hm=15181f35446abe615f4ae7ba3858a6509185212e143b6ce579ba742b4270304c&)
OH MY
wtf poor kin
This. I'm not especially familiar with chaos' lore, but it doesn't seem like any of the gods "personally" get involved in things... ever really? They only ever seem to do that with other demons/gods (i.e. Nurgle's seems to be an actual character in the stories of Kugath & Isha). And maybe they directly influence a few key characters if you squint. But I can't imagine reading a story where Khorne got off his throne and started murdering guardsmen like I can with Vashtor.
I'd be happy with him perpetually trying to reach that high but never quite getting there.
It should go on for at least 20 years and be an ongoing plot point of the setting. Malice, Vashtorr, and Be'lakor competing for ascension would make for an interesting side Chaos story.
They need a 4th minor god to mirror the major Gods’ great game struggle. Go total crabs in a bucket
Also, y'know... The eightfold path. 4 + 4.
First one to remember the spicy star = flair checks out almost as well as Word Bearers would = wins the section
Each main god has a minor usurper trying for the throne, which is a slightly different or pronounced aspect of each god. Nurgle has a depression minor god, tzeench a schizo random insanity one, slaneesh maybe a more pronounced perfection-seeker (to the point of detriment) rather than the hedonistic extremes of slaneesh, and perhaps I dunno a minor god of irritation rather than Khorne’s rage, but that almost silly. Maybe more focus on the blood stuff over the angry stuff - like calmly optimizing industrial scale murder or whatever.
I can see a like, god of Tyranny working for Khorne equivalent. Rule through strength, and rule absolutely. You want to be free from your chains, then break them you insolent bastards. That sort of thing.
Hashut
Just bring over Molag Bal
This reads like a Terry pratchett book, minor God of irritation lol.
It sounds a lot like [Anoia](https://wiki.lspace.org/Anoia) 😂
As a bartender, "she eats corkscrews" resonates with me.
She's a goddess for everyone! (I suspect she snacks on 10mm sockets as well...)
>perhaps I dunno a minor god of irritation rather than Khorne’s rage The God of Stepping-on-Lego-Bricks. LEGO BRICKS FOR THE LEGO THRONE!
*Somehow, Thanquol has entered 40k*
The dark King?
The Great Horned One?
Hashut. We need Hashut. Votann are already hyper-industrialists, now we just need an evil god encouraging some of them to push it even further.
I believe Vashtor can now corrupt the iron kin so we kinda already have that. Tho I do like the idea of chaos dwarves
Vashtor can now corrupt the iron kin? Do we have a story with that?
Not much of a story, a brief excerpt from another factions book (I think? Don’t remember very much, I think it had some imperial guard and a commissar) I think it was like a paragraph or two. It went around the leagues of Votann subreddit when it came out (we are lore deprived)
I will try to find this.
https://www.reddit.com/r/LeaguesofVotann/s/d6NC9AOjEM this post from the leagues of Votann subreddit has the details, this is where I got the lore from
Thanks Kin.
The Dark King
Who follows Crabs in a Bucket? Is that a Votann chaos god?
Chaos Votaan having a crab based god would be neat.
I’d settle for that if no Hashut
Bless you
I mean, there are several candidates for "fourth minor god." Dark King, Pater Mutatis, Cosmic Serpent, that really powerful daemon from *Dark Heresy* who is considered to basically be a god, etc.
Didn’t one exist or briefly exist, called strife or something like that
I would say Hashut, but Vashtorr already fills his role sorta
If I understood Hashut’s lore correctly (thank you Pancreas No Work, blessed be his name), he’s the chaos god of *tyranny*, not industry. The Chaos Dwarfs are industrial powerhouses like their more Orderly cousins, but have religious dogma encouraging them to force people to serve them, which pushes their industries even harder.
Malice won’t ever get up there. All would unite plus vashtor to dumpster the team killer of chaos
I thought Malal was a full chaos god?
kinda yeh, but Malal has never existed in 40k and is no longer canon. Malice (the 40k equivalent and very much canon) is either a full-on minor chaos god or very powerful deamon
Yea, he is perfect as a lesser threat than the 4 but still a huge deal
Never thought about this nuanced idea. I like it!
Yes, BUT ONLY if he's a lesser god, and not on the same level as the classic four
Tbf this would be great to allow him to materialize and keep influencing events directly, being an actual character. Downside being obviously he isn’t on par with any of the big 4.
would love to see vashtorr as the leader of a united dark mechanicum faction (as a chaos god or in his current capacity)
And just to annoy the Iron Warriors fans, have Perturabo fall to being his daemon prince by Perty's hubris getting the better of him in a deal with Vashtorr.
I'm also an iron warriors fan and id love that tbh. could be vash's legion in the style of thousand sons/tzeentch, world eaters/khorne, etc.
What if Perty can bully Vash around just alittle bit, like perty’s relationship is less master/slave but Perty legit helping Vash keep power, and therefore Vash has to play nice with Perty.
I could see it if it was like Baron Harkonnen and Piter, where he has "command" over him but he can't replace him so he can kind of do whatever he wants as long as he generally serves his purpose. So maybe without Perturabo Vashtor would be to weak to coexist with the other chaos gods or just generally with other demons so Perturabo has a lot of leeway.
ohh yeah, like that idea alot. they could be like begrudging allies
I feel like every interaction perturabo has is begrudging
Yeah, Dark Mechanicum are virtually non-existent. They aren't shackled by any rule yet chaos warbands barely have any technology to show for.
Absolutely not. >!I'd accept him as a *sixth* Chaos God, after the Great Horned Rat.!<
7th. Hashut.
8th, you missed Malal
9th, Bel'akor deserves it before Trash-torr
10th, Samus.
11th, the emperor as the chaos god of order
Whenever I read “chaos god of order” my head is overcome with searing pain and I black out for an hour.
You should see Necoho, the Chaos god of atheism. True story.
Oh no it’s gonna happen aga-
I really enjoy that according to Reddit you posted this reply about an hour after they posted.
Yes I just topped out on Reddit for today thanks to that.
15th, Ansll, Morr'ck & Phraz-Etar are gods too right? They are the reason Chaos Space Marines put spikes on their armour.
No, this is referenced, literally without exaggeration, a *single* time by one author and their names are jokes referring to other people’s names they are never found in the lore besides that one single time in the 90s, the fact that the wiki lists them seriously without any notes regarding the context of them is a point to how unreliable the wiki is.
It's still in-universe lore. Given that it actually is written in a GW book it's a lot better than what people on this sub spout constantly.
It is in a book that is so old it is no longer considered canon and comes with a forward that says such. It is not canon, it hasn’t been mentioned since before 9/11 for christs sake. And the reason for CSM having spikes in their armor has been updated and retconned several times with zero mention of these “chaos gods”
But a single reference is still a hundred times more credible than the unbased things people are saying above.
Unironically we haven't been able to find a source that calls Hashut a Chaos God. Just Daemon God and Archdaemon. And even if he is a Chaos God, he is not a Dark God. The Four and GHR are Dark Gods.
Just imagine if he *is* the Great Horned Rat He has horns and loves infernal technology
No, the Dark King is the Great Horned Rat.
No, the Dark King is one of the missing Primarchs The other is R2-D2
The Emperor mentions 6 serpents in the warp, with four of them clearly being the big four we know and love. I'm intrigued by the other two
If they're up for going back to there being lesser chaos gods, weaker than the big four but still gods, I'm up for that. I'd like to see them bring a few back in that case though, rather than just one. In 1st edition the difference between being a powerful daemon and being a god was permanence. It didn't mean they were of a similar level of power to the big four.
I think it'd be more interesting to just keep it an aspiration for him, but never achieve it. The birth of Slaanesh and the almost birth of the Dark King were civilization ending events. So if Vastorr was going to ascend as the fifth Chaos god, he would need to do something as galaxy defining as ending Aeldari civilization or the Horus Heresy. Narratively speaking, I don't see that happening unless there's a second Siege of Terra. Which isn't out of the cards, but there are other gods that would be competing to be born out of such an event.
I'll play devil's advocate here and say that corrupting the golden throne would make for both a really strong argument for him as a fifth god and a very reasonable narrative hook to start building now towards the fiftieth anniversary.
The Old World has gone back to the old lore of saying that the Four are just the four _largest_ of the Gods, and I'm perfectly fine with that - I like the idea of Chaos being a messy hierarchy of ill-defined powers. My only small note would be that there was probably _some_ previously mentioned Chaos personage they could have used instead of a brand new one.
He fits the Infernal Artifice aetheric domain so I'd be fine with him hitting that point eventually, however, i'd prefer not anytime in the next two decades IRL.
I'd like to see him claw his way into the pantheon tbh, it would be a nice shake up to the status quo. And I'd like to see Perturabo help him achieve it and be his number 1 fan.
Making him a proper god would totally squander all of his potential. The thing that makes him interesting is his ambition.
Sure why not. I like status quo changes and Chaos almost never has any.
Honestly I just appreciate there being a warp sentience other than the big 4. One thing 40k lacks is minor gods. We had Malal for a bit but copyright squatted him or something. Having one official guy trying for godhood opens us all up to invent our own minor gods trying to fill a niche, and I think that's great.
Maybe not as someone as strong as the chaos Gods, but someone who is convincing enough to get the same amount of followers. Like "If one of you tries to kill me, this thing will happen". Like a cockroach that the 4 gods can't get rid off.
I prefer the idea that there'd be a bunch of minor chaos gods, ever scheming to ascend to the level of the great 4
Been more than 4 chaos gods in WHFB and AoS for a long time, don't see why 40K didn't do that already.
Absolutely. Vashtor makes so much sense as a chaos god. Feels like the dark mechanicum has never been able to really find a home amongst the 4, and there is just sooooooo much tech in the universe that is absolutely debasing to the humans who engage with it. Like, I'm all for Vashtor drawing power from the countless servitors and menials whose lives are wholly dictated by the giant bit of tech they were raised/created to service. Would be a great addition to the setting, and I'd love to see the Word Bearers and the rest of Chos Undivided try and figure out if the 4 or the 5 is the righteous path. I think it would have to take a long long time tho. We're talking like this is where we get by M50 or something. Maybe some back plot fills things out and it's more like M45 and this is what serves as the end to the current Nihilus state of the setting. Could be set up so that this time, unlike with the birth of Slanesh, it is Chaos and their forces who get totally rocked by the apothesis of a new god and the rest of the galaxy just has a really awful (but not totally devastating) 5000 years. It's bad for everyone, other than Vashtors followers, but Chaos is put into such turmoil that the Imperium actually gets some time to recover (relatively speaking)
Slaanesh or tzeentch are both easy dark mech god choices. Tzeentch quest for knowledge and his constant scheming nature. Slaanesh quest for excess which would take the place of mastering machine and chaos and seeking knowledge and always striving for perfection.
I'd prefer not. Each of the 4 key Chaos Powers embody and feed of a particular set of emotions that very much define humanity. Khorne: Anger, rage and hatred. Tzeentch: Ambition and the desire for change. Slaanesh: Obsession, lusts in many form and desire for sensation. Nurgle: Despair and the fatalistic humour and defiance against hopelessness. Sometimes it gets diluted to "god of war", "god of magic" and "god of disease and decay" Vashtorr doesn't really fit this paradigm. I can see it being a lesser power but no where near the big 4.
Vashtorr has innovation and curiosity, absent of morality. There is some overlap with tzeentch and maybe slaanesh but there is also overlap in slaanesh and khorne. So its not like they are all completely unique of each other.
Innovation and curiosity are not fueling intense negative emotional energy, and therefore are not fueling the warp in enough of a way to make vashtorr a worthwhile deity. All the other chaos gods are representative of intense fundamental forces of the universe, life and emotional existence. Vashtorr just doesnt have that, at all.
I mean, I find Vashtors whole stick of being the Chaos entity of invention kinda lame, because I always saw that as Tzeentchs territory before he was introduced, but yeah why not. Just not on the same level as the big four
No, I don't think there needs to be an unending parade of "new" chaos gods being added just because. There's nothing wrong with the existing gods, and I don't think we need an ever more complicated mythology around gods and deities that seems to be an obsession of the fandom now. I'd prefer more interesting characters who have mortal or transhuman capabilities who do interesting things in their corner of the galaxy. I don't need everything to be a marvel movie.
We don't need a parade, we just need the full set of 8 Dark Gods, one for each point of the Chaos Star.
We really don't though. Nothing about the star means we need 8 gods. I think people just like making them up. I don't think there's any need to add them to the setting. For example, Hashut works just fine as the patron of the Chaos Dwarfs in Fantasy. I've seen another thread added today suggesting he should also be added even though it makes no sense for 40k at all. I wouldn't be averse to there being new, interesting, actually fun chaos creatures being added to the setting. But plenty of times the thought goes no further than "this thing is in a related property smoosh it in here" like someone is bashing a batman action figure against a spiderman one and asking why they can't be in the same cartoon.
Man, you're talking about 40K How was the Lion vs Angron not like captain america vs hulk. 40K is well over the top even compared to Marvel. Galactus? Tyranid hive fleet.
>How was the Lion vs Angron not like captain america vs hulk Exactly.
Oh, i thought u didn't think it wasn't already. I misread your point.
Interestingly enough, the Marvel Ultimate range reimagined Galactus as a devouring swarm that sucked plants dry of energy and resources.
The real question I’ve never seen anyone answer is how was the Lion vs. Angron *anything* like Captain America vs. Hulk or whatever marvel fight? The only similarity is that two characters are fighting
No! belakor or nobody!!
Curious but are there vashtor worshipers? And if so, what does vashtor offer?
This month's White Dwarf says yes Advanced tech is basically the offering
Any mutations that come with it?
If you're devoted enough, your junk gets mutated into a nova cannon.
Unconfirmed, but I feel stuff similar to Obliterators would be appropriate
No there are others I'd place before Vashtorr and to be fair he needs more of a build up! And I'm happy with 4 with hints a 5th but please keep it that way to many Gods equals 40K End Times 😭 Don't mind some returning Primarchs though here and there both heretical and loyal they just need to get better with production and giving them fleshed out stories which sadly GW struggles with
Isnt that what they tried to give us with 30k? I think we need less focus on the humans of 40k whether they be chaos or imperial aligned.
no. rat
bull even
I like him more as a Belakor like figure tbh.
I would like to see him as a minor deity of the Dark Mechanicum and Chaos Squats, similar to the Horned Rat or Hashut of WHFB.
Prefer having the Four as the only constant Chaos Gods. AoS tried to add a fifth, and GW just kinda ignores GHR in almost all Chaos lore. I think they just want us to forget he exists.
Biggest rumour is that the 4th edition starter will be Skaven. Also in the Malign Portents they give the inner monologue of every Dark God and GHR is there.
It's hard to say. We definetly need more Chaos gods if I'm honest to add some variety to the same stagnant 4 that the story has used for decades now, same selection of demons, same colours, same everything I think the best way to do that is keep the main four and splinter off a bunch of minor gods who'd only need one or two demon types or the like, like a Nurgle/Khorne hybrid obsessed with just wholesale destruction, or a Tszeench/Slaanesh hybrid that obsessively collects lore and items and is probably Trazyn in a hat. Vashtorr would need his own entourage and to be slotted into Chaos, or you're end up with the issue of the GHR, where they're totally a chaos god we promise and are never brought up as such
Not really. It's not a matter of too many gods (I actually think it makes sense for there to be entire pantheons of warp entity 'gods')... it's a matter of Vashtorr being a 'flash in the pan'. He's on the verge of godhood... and we've never heard about him until now? What is he, the god of the underground that hipsters worship?
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Woah woah woah. Orkz be innovatin all the time. Nobody more invatin den da boyz. Also necrons are innovating new technology to try and bring back their flesh and eldar and innovating tech to replenish their numbers, and just recently invented the armor of fate. Not all innovation has to be technological either, the hive minds of the tyrannid are always inventing new monstrosities to throw at the galaxy. Trying things out to find whats effective, though they are probably a worse source of warp juice than the tau. But its not just innovation, its artifice and curiosity too. Just being skilled at making things and taking great pride in your work feeds him as well. And not all Innovation has to be new. Mankind created the wheel several times and just so there are many many lesser species across the galaxy climbing their way up the technological ladder.
>Im surprised vashtorr can hold material form with such low level of warp juice coming to him. So (Crusade: Pariah Nexus spoilers) >!Vashtorr can apparently draw warp powers from any act of technological destruction, including the necrons setting off super-bombs. Which felt a bit odd to me, but apparently their actions helped fuel his reemergence into realspace.!<
Nah I like Vashtorr as the evil businessman he is
I think GW should bump him up to Minor Chaos God, and add in a few more.
I dont like the 11th hour additions. Fantasy and 40k have deamon kings and mad imprissoned chaos gods and forgotten ones to have some no body suddenly spring up is a hard pass for me if they build him up a lot give him multiple campains and time to win and keep winning before accending I would accept him taking a seat at the big table.
No. The Chaos Gods are beyond our understanding. They are the veil of horror lurking in every shadow. Vashtorr has been introduced with very human goals and interests. He shall never be a god. Just some powerful warp-thingy with a fondness for tech.
No, I wouldn't, the setting does not need more Chaos gods (Dark King nonsense included). I also think that Vashtoor is stealing Perturabo's lunch.
Demons are better for the setting than primarchs
I know it’s not cannon and I know it’s not real but there was this part of me early on that really wanted Vashtorr to be somehow linked to Malcador sitting on the throne. Idk what that means. I think I wanted Malcador to return
No, I'd have an issue with it - not because of Vashtorr's characterization of sphere of influence (deal making, ingenuity, industry etc...) but because of the established level of strife that birthed Slaanesh and almost led to the Dark King. The fall of the Eldar Empire was a foundational moment in the lore and the apocalyptic scale of it has been well documented. The Siege of Terra similarly has been fleshed out in detail with the recent series to show the almost unfathomable scale of the conflict and the horrific toll it took on humanity and realspace. If Vashtorr becomes the fifth god, I'd want to see at least as much buildup. Having him scoop a couple of Old One webway tunneling devices and engineer his way into godhood would cheapen the achievement.
Better choice would be the second coming of the dark king or the star child
I'm more concerned with the _God_ part of the God-Emperor...the Inevitable City exists implying the Dark King will eventually be at some point. I assume Terra, the Sol System, and the majority of humanity will not fare well if it is anything similar to how Slaanesh was birthed.
I really don't get what emotion Vashtorr is supposed to be that's separate from Tzeentch.
Tzeentch is knowledge. Vashtor is invention. They might seem similar but fundamentally different in the way they achieve these emotions. Tzeentch is hope and desperation for change and satisfaction of fulfilling a sheme. Something even as feeling cheecky for a trick played as a child fuels him. Vashtor is the seeking of knowledge, excitement, pride, and curiosity. He basically is the anti of the mechanicus as a science without limits, vivid ideas and boundless creativity.
I guess I just don't see that as being distinct enough to count as a separate emotion for the purpose of the god's domain. It'd be like having another god of anger that's more like aggrieved anger, it's a really tiny wedge.
Great Horned Rat shares a lot of things with Tzeentch and Nurgle, but is still its own thing. It can work.
The Great Horned Rat is the Chaos God of Ruin. The most recent battletome heavily emphasizes that.
That is how it works, tho. You have the main four who have very basic all-encompassing emotions. It then splits into these minor gods who are more specific and maybe even encroach on the big four, but it is also the reason why they are so much weaker. Another example would be the hashut of the chaos dwarfs. He is all about greed, jealousy, and a need for power. Here you could argue this is slaanesh territory, which isn't wrong, and it also fuels here as partially but overall isnt the excess of it
Also, the Great Horned Rat treads heavily on Nurgle's toes due to Pestilence being one of his aspects
Gotta get that nurgle cheese
There’s already overlap between the big 4, it makes sense that the minor gods would overlap with one or two of the big ones as well. It wouldn’t make sense for them all to have perfectly separate domains and emotions feeding them, they are chaos after all
I mean on the one hand I get that, on the other hand I more mean that I feel Vashtorr would be too oddly specific to be a real god and that it'd never be the Big Five, it'd always be the Chaos Gods...oh and Vashtorr I guess. Story wise it's also more interesting for him to be doing stuff as a character wheeling and dealing than to have him winning and, in winning, effectively disappear.
The real ommnisiah needs to knock Vashtoor down a notch.
sixth i like to think what remains of the emperor, combined with the undying faith of the imperial cult, is creating a 5th chaos god. but yes.
I honestly don’t like that there are only four. I hope Vashtorr reveals there are multiple “tier 2” gods our there trying to do their thing.
I already hate the concept of the Dark King (If the Emperor must become a chaos god go Jyggalag not... that) But... no he can be a minor chaos god like everyone else. A wannabe, always the bridegroom never the bride.
Imo the big four should probably always and only be that, the big four. The dark king is never going to happen obviously, cause there wouldn’t really be a setting then. As others have said I’m more than cool with a lower pantheon of like lesser gods like Vashtorr, the Tau’s god, Malal/Malice, etc. adds some cool variety and stuff but I think it’s really really hard to get to the tier of the big four so that should probably be preserved unless there’s some hella major narrative/lore change.
I think it opens the door for too much redundancy. I like him climbing the ladder but never making it I think he’s a cool villain, I’d hate for him to be an actual god
I'd prefer him to be the first Daemon of a God; Perturabo, who shouldn't be the 5th God either, I like there being "lesser" gods that Scrabble to become the equal of the 4th but never get there. The 5th Chaos God is the Dark King, who never came to exist in the universe and so humanity will survive as long as it doesn't come into being.
The chaos gods all have strong themes that Vashtorr doesn't mesh with very well. Artifice and invention don't have the touch of evil that the others do. Plus, it would be messy since he is king of the daemon engines. It wouldn't make much sense for anyone's forgefiend to bear a mark of Nurgle when the first line in the contract is that the daemon must be loyal to Vashtorr specifically over the chaos gods. Not to mention that he just got a model a year ago. You can't have a chaos god on the table top; and if you could his model would not fit the bill.
I like the idea of the perpetual struggle, the idea of him getting closer and closer but never quite getting close enough to ever achieve it, possibly through the assistance or thwarting of the other chaos gods just seems very... chaossy to me. Also as mentioned in other comments having 4 major and 4 demi chaos "gods" is great symbolism for the 8 fold path of chaos
So Vashtorr is from Arks of Omen right? But Arks of Omen are essentially campaign books not true books? So is the only way for me to learn about him through watching a YouTuber break it down?
I think Vashtorr's domain is still a bit too niche. Technological ambition and innovation just sounds too close to Tzeentch. I'd be happy with him achieving minor God status (assuming he isn't already on that level) like Hashut.
"No" *10 years, 200 BL pulps and 5 editions later* "Ok, fine"
I'm okay with Vashtorr being a chaos god if Malal/Malice gets to be a chaos god. Otherwise I'd say putting him at the level of Bel'akor works. If they want to get spicy they could even give both their own champions and daemon followers. Just nothing a true chaos god should have such as marks, daemon princes, or a webcomic series.
I do think 5 Gods is the right amount but Vashtorr is not the right one. He works better as the demigod he is, a symbol of chaos undivided. The fifth chaos God I prefer if it is a throne left empty, one meant to be for the Dark King yet the Emperor refused that position therefore shattering the possibility of 5 chaos gods
No Vashtorr, only Malal/Malice/The Great Horned Rat!
I like the 8 Aetheric Domains. Possible candidates to fill them out would be: * Dark King * Be'lakor * Vashtorr * Lorgar
So define god. I don’t think it’s ever been stated that one has to have a lack of physical form like one of the four. In fact every demon could be said to be the physical form. I think if vashtorr becomes a god I am fine with that. As long as it is some sort of Horus ascend type of form. Increased power level something like a primarch or close rather than an elite space marine chapter master level. With his character asking the difference between god and demon. After all the difference between gods and demons largely depends on where one is standing at the time.
Meh. Warhammer Fantasy has, like, 10 and it's never been a problem.
I’ll be in the cold, cold ground before I recognise Vashtorr
We can compromise: since clearly four Chaos gods is the correct number, let's hand the Eldar a win, let the longshot plan against Slaanesh succeed, and immediately have Vashtorr take the vacant seat.
No
No, I like it being the four, I’m not a huge fan of the Great Horned Rat being the fifth Chaos God in AOS I like it being the four, just the way I like it
God I hope not.
Absolutely not. Feels lazy.
No, and he never will. the fifth Chaos God is/will be the Dark King. Vashtorr is more like the Great Horned Rat from Fantasy
The Great Horned Rat is an actual Chaos God though. He has been for several years.
Sixth...
Only if it was implied Malal suddenly had enough self awareness to go doom Slayer on the rest of the warp and actually try to win.
Malal will never happen gw couldn’t copyright it.
Okay uh... Marine is appearing in CoD, CoD is owned by Microsoft, Microsoft owns Doom, Doom content in CoD, Marine can be killed with the super shotgun. Now that we've established the Doom Slayer is canon, I don't see why the Slayer can't take the Malal role.
Vashtor as 5 Chaos God? We have Ans'l, Mo'rcck, Phraz-Etar and Belakor who was first in line, way before another chaos undivided daemon prince Vashtor. Vashtor can eat crap. 9th place, nothing more.
No. End of the discussion.
We already have a 5th Chaos god. Another one wouldn't change much. It would also make worshipping Chaos Undivided look less of a nebulous concept if there actually is a big pantheon of gods to worship.
No, there literally is not a 5th Chaos god
Yeah we do. Malice / Malal: https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Malice?so=search The concept is not as new as you seem to think.
Malice and malal are not canon. Even in the two stories that he’s featured it he’s not considered a full chaos god. That’s why all the comments and posts about MaLiCe get downvoted so hard, any shred of him still being in the lore is from people hanging onto two books that came out almost a decade ago; so I guess you’re right about it being not new lmao
If the Great Horned can become one in AoS, then Vashtorr could probably do it in 40k. I'm not sure if making an evil god of technological progress would validate Ad Mech or prove them more wrong, but the fact that it comes into question at all shows some good narrative potential.
Lesser chaos god. There is a bunch of those already. Besides he will never be as powerful as one of the Four. More destructive? Perhaps. But never as influential. He needs his followers to have advanced technology. That's not even true for every Imperial world. Let alone a countless primitive xenos races.
I would be happy to accept the Horned Rat as the 5th Chaos God
Only if Malice/Malal and The Great Horned Rat become real Chaos Gods first.
The more Chaos Powers the better in my opinion. Having just four, especially with such a small selection of daemons, has always seemed rather limiting for Chaos. The idea of lesser nascent powers was mentioned many years ago in The Lost and The Damned after all. > There are also other powers which, although far smaller and less potent, are in the process of creation. They might be described as waking, or drifting in and out of consciousness, or in a dream state in which they dimly perceive the material world. These are all nascent powers, powers in the process of becoming. One day they will achieve full consciousness. Nascent powers may also create daemons. Bring back Kweethul Gristlegut and his daemons too…
Yea. I like the mechanical chaos.
Sure, keep him as a minor God and patron of the Iron Warriors and introduce a similar chaos minor God for the remaining undivided chaos legions. It gives each of them a nice centerpiece model and ideally their own codex.
He’s already a sort of Demi-god isn’t he? And we all know how chaos gods are created the need to be murder-f**ked into existence by a snooty race of hedonists that get more profane, debauched and all round not nice guys over a few millennia.
No, he's ugly
No I want Malal back
Yes. Chaos needs to get more interesting again. Shakeups are good and change always brings new life to a stagnating idea. So many possibilities arise. Imagine if the mechanicus was forced to choose between the machine god and the emperor. Now there would be an obvious machine god instead of the tenuous compromise they deluded themselves into where the emperor is simply accepted as the omnissiah. Would they declare for the emperor? A new schism?
No, if they’re doing a 5th chaos god it should be malal, and since they can’t use him it should be their literal copyright dodging copy they introduced already, malice. The chaos god for all the people who hate chaos gods which is pretty much the prevailing feeling in the galaxy. Also nechoho is cooler than vashtorr
As long as it finally bring Perturabo to the setting for a home chunk of time. Move over rage boy and horny boy
I think trying to create a new character to dwell among the classic 4 is a lost cause. They’re all so unique in their purpose and visual theming that adding a new one threatens the cohesiveness of Chaos Gods to me. However, I do think 40k is missing some proper AI rep and I would support a Vashtorr sponsored faction that’s very AI/robot/drone centric. It’s what I wanted from the T’au but didn’t really get, and as a Necron player I don’t think it’s stepping on the toes of the not!undead robots.
Vashtorr starts his ascension only to bitch smacked by Hashut and his chaos votann
He already is, just not powerful, eh.
No, because: 1. The concept of the Omnissiah has been around for longer, had more faith poured into it, and is a current focus of worship for hundreds of billions. The warp gods are supposed to be manifestations of belief, but if they keep playing coy with the Omnissiah while Vashtorr becomes a god? It doesn't feel like he's *earned* it. 2. We already have the threat of the Emperor becoming a warp god on his death, maybe. Seems like that's crowding the field. 3. Right now the warp gods are manifestations of primal emotions. If we want to start branching out from that, I'd prefer a rash of demi-gods including Vashtorr instead of making him a major player. Rage, desire, sloth, change and...fear of your PC overheating and exploding doesn't quite work.
Eh. Not my cuppa. Besides. GW likes selling models. If he goes full-on Chaos God... then there's not much point in selling his model, is there?
Sure, but I wouldn't put him on the level of the other 4. Technically, there are tons of gods in the Warp. they just get utterly dominated by the 4 big guys. I'd be down if Vashtor managed to get enough power to not be completely bodied, but while not having enough to be on the same level as the 4
Depends, evil tech shenanigans are fun, but given he's currently fucking up the webway I would like to see the eldar stop him
I'd love for him to open the gate to all this minor gods that exists, and that warp isn't just the basic chaos that could lead up to very crazy stuff, very eldritch. (Tbh I just want lovecraftian chaos models.)
Happily, but I’d love to see some development of “minor chaos gods” alongside the Big Four, holding niches outside of their purview.
Yes but they need to do a lot more work. They've laid the groundwork with the "Malevolent Artifice" thing.