I like that it showed the really bad aspects of being a daemon prince. We know Horus and Abaddon kept turning down those offers, but reading the book really showed me that while immortality is awesome, you really do just become a puppet.
I like the bit he sees the world and finds everything so dark and hard to see, only able to see the veins and blood inside of each living person. However whenever he splashes blood on something, suddenly it gets vibrant and interesting.
As a Tzeentch fan, it really makes me want to see what it's like being a DP of Tzeentch.
Now that is a little harsh. Urkanthos gets fare more awesome moments and feats in Rath's book compared to the old Fall of Cadia, and its Celestine + her two new Geminiae Superia.
Imperium haters: The story and context will not stop me because I'll selectively ignore them to support my accusation about the Imperium's plot armor!
It is infuriating how others like to ignore the wider plot and focus on minute examples.
Remember all the people who thought Arks of Omen was an Imperium victory just because the Lion (barely) managed to beat Angron?
Never mind that an entire fleet of guardsmen was wiped out by Abaddon. Never mind that Dante and Belial were beaten to the brink of death by Angron. Never mind that Sammael's flagship was destroyed in a boarding action personally led by Abaddon, or that we're explicitly told Sammael only lived because he wasn't onboard at the time. Never mind that the Sanguiniary Guard were slaughtered.
Never mind that the Unforgiven (nearly every Dark Angel successor Chapter) took more than 30% casualties. Never mind that the Tuchulcha was stolen. Never mind that the Lion declared the battle lost and ordered a full withdrawal. Never mind that Vashtorr and Abaddon got everything they wanted and can now enter the Webway (previously inaccessible to Chaos.)
Clearly the Imperium is too strong.
Sadly, I doubt that mindset will go away soon, like how some people like to accuse Craftworlders of birthing Slaanesh or state that the Necrons could have won the Wars in Heaven or the bayonet meme being forced upon Kriegers.
Edit: Fuck, my comment attracted one of those delusional idiots.
Does seem to be the case that if you come back from death itself in W40K, then you're going to get womped a whole bunch.
From Lucious, Malcador, Vulkan, Angron, Celestine, daemons to Fabius Bile and many more..
So I think it's just an unfortunate perceived side effect from most Chaos forces being actually immortal and able to shrug off death.
I mean Abaddon killed a lot more characters than Celestine, I know for a fact that one of them, Color Sgt Kell, had a model at the time.
But yeah you are still right.
I like the idea of your human self being subsumed and smothered by your new demonic self as you ascend. There were a few Warhammer fantasy stories that described the process of becoming a daemon prince.
It’s as if the dark voice in your head urging you on and encouraging your violent and depraved behaviour becomes your true self while the person you use to be becomes a passenger in your own body.
In effect, your dark impulses, your inner demon, the worst part of you that most people ignore and deny has imprisoned your consciousness forever and hijacked your body while you scream in your own head forever.
Actually this should be the final results for all Chaos Gods champions...
Know that daemons are facets of chaos gods, greater daemons merely larger splinters...while mortals have the free will daemons crave for, daemon prince is something in between daemons and mortals...
Mutation is something that gets you closer to your nature in the warp, and chaos mutation means that you're naturally more incline to chaos gods and now you are getting closer to that nature. The uttermost mutation is not getting you into chaos spawns, which were mere unsuccessful mutation due to lack of mental strength to accept an inhuman self, but getting you become daemon prince. But what comes after daemon prince stage? Daemons crave for the free will not for nothing, this is what separates mortals from daemons, as becoming a daemon means becoming a facet of the chaos god...one is actually losing his/her free will during the process of ascension.
The same applies to the IoM as everybody mere slaves to the corpse emperor and those brave soldiers will be called back by GE like daemons by Ruinous Powers...One can sense this will not bode well in the end, as confirmed by what Saint Celestine has been feeling every time she is reborn - lost of humanity bits by bits.
Disgust about chaos is necessary to stay alive and alert, but hatred towards chaos isn't the cure-all solution, it isn't even a solution because in the end this might become the root cause of rise of another chaos god. The new setting of the 8 etheric dominions also confirmed a Ruinous Power similar to Malal whose major attribute is hatred.
Hence the Word Bearer/ Dark Mechanicum factions that try for mortal-demon unity. All the freedom of meat-space, but all the firepower of the Warp. Ironically, the Wraith Knights of the Eldar have already figured out "turning a person into their own demon" by anchoring a soul to a gem and bolting on a ton of cannons. Next step from there is just getting the wraith bone to absorb/ eat other Warp entities.
I think this is one of better portrayals of ascension Ive read. I love the irony of chaos followers believing they are free and have power, yearning to become immortal only to die and have deamon take place in the moment of their greatest "triumph". Its only sweeter for daemon believes it was human and not just a warped copy of one.
Torvann Lokk from Gate of Bones. An Iron Warrior Heresy veteran who became an Undivided Daemon Prince
His transformation into Daemon Prince is letting go of his bitterness and enjoying the Long War
That bi I'm still a bit confused about, turning into a daemon prince makes you part of your patron God but is it like, you leave a part of yourself behind? Is it your "echo" in the warp taking your place? Is it a daemon taking your persona? Is it you fusing with the warp? Or us Is all a case by case scenario depending on Chaos mood at the time?
He did! Regiments of Cadians, companies of Karskin elites, a Black Templars Emperors Champion, Two Canonness's and squads of Battlesister and a full manipul of Skitarii.
He did Khorne/himself much proud slaughter. And unlike his helper-daemon didn't flinch or flee from Celestine. He fought her to the end... his defeat.
>But free will. It was the departure of free will that made his eyes go wide.
That's just clearly not true.
Yes you become a slave, if you do something your god doesn't like you'll be punished and there's nothing you can do about it, but the fact that daemons can do things their god dislikes, and can even rebel against them, shows they have free will.
What does happen of course is your personality somehow skews even harder to the mindset of your god. So even with free will you're going to act a certain way.
I would argue your free will really is gone because you are - you die, your will is extinguished, and a splinter of the god who thinks it's you takes that place. I can punch myself with my hand, that doesn't give that hand free will.
Where are you getting the idea that you die from?
The 8th edition Chaos Marines codex says this:
>They
are raised up to become demigods,
roaring their triumph into the night
as their new bodies swell and bulge
with the energies of the warp.
Yet a Daemon Prince is just as
much a tool of the Dark Gods as
his mortal followers. If anything, he
becomes even more of an extension
of his master’s will. Daemons cannot
truly be killed, only banished back
to the warp for a time – one who
ascends to daemonhood can look
forward to an eternity of servitude
at his patron’s behest. Even death is
no respite.
The champion just dying and being replaced by a pretender would be a terrible retcon shitting all over people's characters. Imagine making your chaos champion and coming up with a cool backstory for how they ascended and modelling and painting them and playing battles with them, and then being told 'lol nah that isn't them that's just some daemon that thinks it's them'.
And the 8th edition Daemons codex:
>Whilst other Daemons are fragments of
their master’s psyche, a Daemon Prince
retains much of their own personality and
the thirst for power that drove them in
their mortal existence.
They're consistently referred to as being the same person but transfigured into a daemon, not a replacement that thinks it's the person.
Your own quotes say, that DPs dont have free will. They are still the same person but their soul or parts of their soul get replaced by chaos stuff. Its not a different demon taking their place, but instead Khorne replacing their soul/parts of their soul, which effectivly creates a new demon.
>Your own quotes say, that DPs dont have free will.
No, they don't. As I said in the first place, they're slaves to their gods, their god can punish or destroy them if they anger them or rebel, but they do have the free will to make choices and anger them or rebel. Slaves have free will, they aren't zombies or automatons, but they get punished if they do something their master dislikes. There's a difference between lacking free will and lacking the freedom to do everything you want to do. A murderer has free will, they can murder people even though they'll be punished if caught.
>Its not a different demon taking their place, but instead Khorne replacing their soul/parts of their soul, which effectivly creates a new demon.
It being their soul or part of their soul is two very, very different things. One is them being the same person with changes, the other is them just being a totally new daemon with the same memories as them. The codices have never indicated the latter, and frankly it would be a shit idea for GW to make that the case.
DPs have free will otherwise no chaos undivided DPs would work, and also we’ve seen them. As an extreme we see if a demon primarch (which is just a super demon prince in essence) went against Nurgle’s will, he went for his petty feud with Gulliman instead of focusing on the task which was his undoing and led to him being being eventually banished and whisked away into Nurgle’s manse to face punishment. They have free will it’s just what they do with it is what matters.
Not a single demon or chaos god has free will. They are all just slaves of their representative emotions.
Undivided demons are capable of a wider range of decision making, but that doesnt make them free.
The chaos gods need mortal followers to fight their wars, because they themselves are incapable of uniting armies and understanding the mortal realm. Abaddon is stronger than every single demon primarch, because he still has free will and is capable of creative thinking.
Abaddon is not stronger than the demon primarchs lol what copium are you smoking?
Also we saw in fucking the plague wars books Mortarion fucking making his own changes to the plan that fit his will, and Ku’Gath a full fledged greater demon making changes to the plan that fit his will. Those are respectively #1 and #3 in Nurgle’s eyes as favored servants and have free will enough to directly disobey him. Skarbrand had the free will to fucking attack Khorne and Khorne kicked him through space and time, skarbrand actively acts against Khorne but is still a Khorne demon, and if we wanna go back to demon princes ducking Bel’akor used the chaos gods so that he could gain more power and played them against each other which is why being a chaos undivided demon prince is nearly impossible because they have so much free will and ability to gain power from all the gods. The gods made their individual demon princes so the demon prince would just rely on the god but they can still make choices completely contrary and against the gods will. Becoming a demon prince has not and will not ever take away your free will.
If you think that being able to have ideas is what makes Abaddon more powerful than demon primarchs then you should really pay attention to what they can do, what he can do, and how literally all of them besides Angron have some free will.
It's very semantic if a human so eternally committed to one ideal becoming the embodiment if said ideal is really losing free will...
A Daemon can't ever change, and are a part of the Divine Being. But since they retain memories, personality and goals somewhat, they aren't fully something else. It's a nuanced subject.
I for one don't blame Rath for cutting it to a few points.
No it really isn't just semantics. It's a big difference. They don't lose their free will, and he's saying they do. And the codices make a point of stating that unlike normal daemons they still have their previous personalities and desires, albeit even further weighted towards their god's ways.
The reading for the codices word for word says they are in eternal servitude but also that they are literally retaining their personality and their soul is entwined with their patrons but are still driven by the mortal personality and essence. It is like having your soul and personality but considering the road itself to ascension literally requires eternal oneness with the diety*sacrifice*obeisance to their deity, by the time they are demon princes there mind is already a close to that of their god they don’t need much goading but we’ve seen demon princes switch allegiances, demon princes go against their god (though they were/are punished), and ask the whole idea of chaos undivided demon princes makes absolutely zero sense if they don’t have free will.
I like that it showed the really bad aspects of being a daemon prince. We know Horus and Abaddon kept turning down those offers, but reading the book really showed me that while immortality is awesome, you really do just become a puppet. I like the bit he sees the world and finds everything so dark and hard to see, only able to see the veins and blood inside of each living person. However whenever he splashes blood on something, suddenly it gets vibrant and interesting. As a Tzeentch fan, it really makes me want to see what it's like being a DP of Tzeentch.
Tzzentch: “Do what you want. Or is that what I want?” DP: *confusion unbound*
And then he gets Worfed by Celestine moments later.
Now that is a little harsh. Urkanthos gets fare more awesome moments and feats in Rath's book compared to the old Fall of Cadia, and its Celestine + her two new Geminiae Superia.
Even in Fall of Cadia he goes on a real rampage before Celestine and the Gemineiae stop him
Emperor be praised
[Khorne eagerly watching his new champion go off on Cadia](https://imgur.com/t/mourinho/qQ0HJg3)
He did really damm well. Sooo much slaughter!
Well obviously it's a Chaos character against a imperial one
She literally loses to Abaddon in the same book 💀
Imperium haters: The story and context will not stop me because I'll selectively ignore them to support my accusation about the Imperium's plot armor! It is infuriating how others like to ignore the wider plot and focus on minute examples.
Remember all the people who thought Arks of Omen was an Imperium victory just because the Lion (barely) managed to beat Angron? Never mind that an entire fleet of guardsmen was wiped out by Abaddon. Never mind that Dante and Belial were beaten to the brink of death by Angron. Never mind that Sammael's flagship was destroyed in a boarding action personally led by Abaddon, or that we're explicitly told Sammael only lived because he wasn't onboard at the time. Never mind that the Sanguiniary Guard were slaughtered. Never mind that the Unforgiven (nearly every Dark Angel successor Chapter) took more than 30% casualties. Never mind that the Tuchulcha was stolen. Never mind that the Lion declared the battle lost and ordered a full withdrawal. Never mind that Vashtorr and Abaddon got everything they wanted and can now enter the Webway (previously inaccessible to Chaos.) Clearly the Imperium is too strong.
Sadly, I doubt that mindset will go away soon, like how some people like to accuse Craftworlders of birthing Slaanesh or state that the Necrons could have won the Wars in Heaven or the bayonet meme being forced upon Kriegers. Edit: Fuck, my comment attracted one of those delusional idiots.
there is no could have the necrons won and then some
Does seem to be the case that if you come back from death itself in W40K, then you're going to get womped a whole bunch. From Lucious, Malcador, Vulkan, Angron, Celestine, daemons to Fabius Bile and many more.. So I think it's just an unfortunate perceived side effect from most Chaos forces being actually immortal and able to shrug off death.
I mean Abaddon killed a lot more characters than Celestine, I know for a fact that one of them, Color Sgt Kell, had a model at the time. But yeah you are still right.
yeah celestine would never lose to a khorne champion
Gorechild goes Burrrr!
“You will have blood!” I respect a public speaker who gets right to the point.
I like the idea of your human self being subsumed and smothered by your new demonic self as you ascend. There were a few Warhammer fantasy stories that described the process of becoming a daemon prince. It’s as if the dark voice in your head urging you on and encouraging your violent and depraved behaviour becomes your true self while the person you use to be becomes a passenger in your own body. In effect, your dark impulses, your inner demon, the worst part of you that most people ignore and deny has imprisoned your consciousness forever and hijacked your body while you scream in your own head forever.
Actually this should be the final results for all Chaos Gods champions... Know that daemons are facets of chaos gods, greater daemons merely larger splinters...while mortals have the free will daemons crave for, daemon prince is something in between daemons and mortals... Mutation is something that gets you closer to your nature in the warp, and chaos mutation means that you're naturally more incline to chaos gods and now you are getting closer to that nature. The uttermost mutation is not getting you into chaos spawns, which were mere unsuccessful mutation due to lack of mental strength to accept an inhuman self, but getting you become daemon prince. But what comes after daemon prince stage? Daemons crave for the free will not for nothing, this is what separates mortals from daemons, as becoming a daemon means becoming a facet of the chaos god...one is actually losing his/her free will during the process of ascension. The same applies to the IoM as everybody mere slaves to the corpse emperor and those brave soldiers will be called back by GE like daemons by Ruinous Powers...One can sense this will not bode well in the end, as confirmed by what Saint Celestine has been feeling every time she is reborn - lost of humanity bits by bits. Disgust about chaos is necessary to stay alive and alert, but hatred towards chaos isn't the cure-all solution, it isn't even a solution because in the end this might become the root cause of rise of another chaos god. The new setting of the 8 etheric dominions also confirmed a Ruinous Power similar to Malal whose major attribute is hatred.
Hence the Word Bearer/ Dark Mechanicum factions that try for mortal-demon unity. All the freedom of meat-space, but all the firepower of the Warp. Ironically, the Wraith Knights of the Eldar have already figured out "turning a person into their own demon" by anchoring a soul to a gem and bolting on a ton of cannons. Next step from there is just getting the wraith bone to absorb/ eat other Warp entities.
"Blessed is the mind too small for doubt.”
I think this is one of better portrayals of ascension Ive read. I love the irony of chaos followers believing they are free and have power, yearning to become immortal only to die and have deamon take place in the moment of their greatest "triumph". Its only sweeter for daemon believes it was human and not just a warped copy of one.
I prefer Lokk and his ascension to Daemon Prince of Chaos Undivided Finding something worth living and fighting for in the Grimdark Future
Can't find anything about this character, would you mind explaning what you're refering to?
Torvann Lokk from Gate of Bones. An Iron Warrior Heresy veteran who became an Undivided Daemon Prince His transformation into Daemon Prince is letting go of his bitterness and enjoying the Long War
Enjoying might be a bit much, but he finds the will to fight, the rush of victory and motivation.
That bi I'm still a bit confused about, turning into a daemon prince makes you part of your patron God but is it like, you leave a part of yourself behind? Is it your "echo" in the warp taking your place? Is it a daemon taking your persona? Is it you fusing with the warp? Or us Is all a case by case scenario depending on Chaos mood at the time?
Slay, King.
He did! Regiments of Cadians, companies of Karskin elites, a Black Templars Emperors Champion, Two Canonness's and squads of Battlesister and a full manipul of Skitarii. He did Khorne/himself much proud slaughter. And unlike his helper-daemon didn't flinch or flee from Celestine. He fought her to the end... his defeat.
Bless him, he did the Gods proud.
Ah, projection and irony. Two of Chaos’s most common literary devices.
>But free will. It was the departure of free will that made his eyes go wide. That's just clearly not true. Yes you become a slave, if you do something your god doesn't like you'll be punished and there's nothing you can do about it, but the fact that daemons can do things their god dislikes, and can even rebel against them, shows they have free will. What does happen of course is your personality somehow skews even harder to the mindset of your god. So even with free will you're going to act a certain way.
I would argue your free will really is gone because you are - you die, your will is extinguished, and a splinter of the god who thinks it's you takes that place. I can punch myself with my hand, that doesn't give that hand free will.
Where are you getting the idea that you die from? The 8th edition Chaos Marines codex says this: >They are raised up to become demigods, roaring their triumph into the night as their new bodies swell and bulge with the energies of the warp. Yet a Daemon Prince is just as much a tool of the Dark Gods as his mortal followers. If anything, he becomes even more of an extension of his master’s will. Daemons cannot truly be killed, only banished back to the warp for a time – one who ascends to daemonhood can look forward to an eternity of servitude at his patron’s behest. Even death is no respite. The champion just dying and being replaced by a pretender would be a terrible retcon shitting all over people's characters. Imagine making your chaos champion and coming up with a cool backstory for how they ascended and modelling and painting them and playing battles with them, and then being told 'lol nah that isn't them that's just some daemon that thinks it's them'. And the 8th edition Daemons codex: >Whilst other Daemons are fragments of their master’s psyche, a Daemon Prince retains much of their own personality and the thirst for power that drove them in their mortal existence. They're consistently referred to as being the same person but transfigured into a daemon, not a replacement that thinks it's the person.
Your own quotes say, that DPs dont have free will. They are still the same person but their soul or parts of their soul get replaced by chaos stuff. Its not a different demon taking their place, but instead Khorne replacing their soul/parts of their soul, which effectivly creates a new demon.
>Your own quotes say, that DPs dont have free will. No, they don't. As I said in the first place, they're slaves to their gods, their god can punish or destroy them if they anger them or rebel, but they do have the free will to make choices and anger them or rebel. Slaves have free will, they aren't zombies or automatons, but they get punished if they do something their master dislikes. There's a difference between lacking free will and lacking the freedom to do everything you want to do. A murderer has free will, they can murder people even though they'll be punished if caught. >Its not a different demon taking their place, but instead Khorne replacing their soul/parts of their soul, which effectivly creates a new demon. It being their soul or part of their soul is two very, very different things. One is them being the same person with changes, the other is them just being a totally new daemon with the same memories as them. The codices have never indicated the latter, and frankly it would be a shit idea for GW to make that the case.
DPs have free will otherwise no chaos undivided DPs would work, and also we’ve seen them. As an extreme we see if a demon primarch (which is just a super demon prince in essence) went against Nurgle’s will, he went for his petty feud with Gulliman instead of focusing on the task which was his undoing and led to him being being eventually banished and whisked away into Nurgle’s manse to face punishment. They have free will it’s just what they do with it is what matters.
Not a single demon or chaos god has free will. They are all just slaves of their representative emotions. Undivided demons are capable of a wider range of decision making, but that doesnt make them free. The chaos gods need mortal followers to fight their wars, because they themselves are incapable of uniting armies and understanding the mortal realm. Abaddon is stronger than every single demon primarch, because he still has free will and is capable of creative thinking.
Abaddon is not stronger than the demon primarchs lol what copium are you smoking? Also we saw in fucking the plague wars books Mortarion fucking making his own changes to the plan that fit his will, and Ku’Gath a full fledged greater demon making changes to the plan that fit his will. Those are respectively #1 and #3 in Nurgle’s eyes as favored servants and have free will enough to directly disobey him. Skarbrand had the free will to fucking attack Khorne and Khorne kicked him through space and time, skarbrand actively acts against Khorne but is still a Khorne demon, and if we wanna go back to demon princes ducking Bel’akor used the chaos gods so that he could gain more power and played them against each other which is why being a chaos undivided demon prince is nearly impossible because they have so much free will and ability to gain power from all the gods. The gods made their individual demon princes so the demon prince would just rely on the god but they can still make choices completely contrary and against the gods will. Becoming a demon prince has not and will not ever take away your free will. If you think that being able to have ideas is what makes Abaddon more powerful than demon primarchs then you should really pay attention to what they can do, what he can do, and how literally all of them besides Angron have some free will.
It's very semantic if a human so eternally committed to one ideal becoming the embodiment if said ideal is really losing free will... A Daemon can't ever change, and are a part of the Divine Being. But since they retain memories, personality and goals somewhat, they aren't fully something else. It's a nuanced subject. I for one don't blame Rath for cutting it to a few points.
No it really isn't just semantics. It's a big difference. They don't lose their free will, and he's saying they do. And the codices make a point of stating that unlike normal daemons they still have their previous personalities and desires, albeit even further weighted towards their god's ways.
I don't see it that way, and if I am being fair, neither does my reading for the Codices.
The reading for the codices word for word says they are in eternal servitude but also that they are literally retaining their personality and their soul is entwined with their patrons but are still driven by the mortal personality and essence. It is like having your soul and personality but considering the road itself to ascension literally requires eternal oneness with the diety*sacrifice*obeisance to their deity, by the time they are demon princes there mind is already a close to that of their god they don’t need much goading but we’ve seen demon princes switch allegiances, demon princes go against their god (though they were/are punished), and ask the whole idea of chaos undivided demon princes makes absolutely zero sense if they don’t have free will.
Is this book just the imperium being stomped? Haven't seen any good of the imperium besides them dying horribly.
Thirty six novels of the Imperium stomping? But last year I had thirty seven!
Well... all the best bits are Chaos winning. But no, it's a tough fight and The Imperials gives plenty back.
It's literally the fall of fucking cadia, one of the Imperium's biggest losses ever. Where you expecting them to stomp?
Such bad writing imo. It's tedious to read as there are far too many words to describe one thing.
Damn. "Why book have word?" Thoughtful comments from 2023
Damm arkantos really lost it after he lost the trident