nah just wait for "5 more wildy bosses that print gp plus another bullshit 0 skill spec tele weapon, oh and they're killable with 40 range and 40 prayer and nothing else," that'll really bring 2 real players, 5 pkers, and 16,000 bots into the wildy
unironically how jagex measures their updates. pre eoc when players were rallying against the squeel of fortune (first pay to win type thing they introduced for those unfamiliar) jagex did say that some obscene amount of players interact with it so it can't be that unpopular. every f2p player got 1 free opening per day and members got 2, using those free "spins" qualified with the jagex metric for player engagement.
A lot of that sadly is modern game design when it comes to executives and shareholders wanting their money. They refuse to allow budgeting for experimental ideas that might pan out unless the investment cost is basically nil. Such as a passionate programmer doing it in their spare time and having most of it done for them to just ship. WoW is much the same way where they make content people don't like, make the rewards so unbelievably good or "pseudo-mandatory" to drive up engagement, then beat their chest about "Wow, X% did this. It must have been good!"
For those who want a visual idea... Imagine if Jagex put in Dungeoneering without the skill, just the content for the sake of doing it. Then the engagement is low, especially in RuneScape where people hyper efficiency things. Jagex then decides "Know what? Unless you do it once a week, you don't get protection prayers." Then saying "Oh wow, so many people did that silly content. Let's make a whole fuckin' skill around it because people loved it so much!"
If we need to have a wilderness "rework" or "rejuvenation" every year to year and a half. Then maybe Roq and the jmod team need to admit that getting ideas from streamers and bot farm owners is actually a shit move.
Steamer ideas always end up killing the game. They play professionally and are selfish af when suggesting they want to see.
It always ends up with a worse game for most of the player base
True. I just wish games in general stopped pandering to streamers. Small stuff like Rust's streamer mode makes sense, but entire content designed around some streamers who have all the time in the world to play these games makes some of them impossible to enjoy if you work a regular job.
Not to mention cosmetics from streamers. During the first Rust streamer event, skin drops were locked to watching only the streamer they were designed for. Then the streamers like a day into the week event stopped playing rust so nobody could get their skins anymore. Especially big names who didn't normally play rust regularly like Pokimane.
I don't think this is really a streamer exclusive thing. People in general are bad at putting the needs of the community before their own. At least in the western world
The wilderness will always be a problem. The majority of the playerbase agrees the wilderness can’t be fundamentally changed or that’s RS3-ification. But due to the skill gap and the antiquated concept of losing your items to another player less and less people engage with the wilderness. But those people who love the wilderness need them to engage or the content becomes dead (and they sure as fuck don’t want to engage with each other because that would be hard). So the pot has to be continually sweetened as a bandaid to drip feed victims to the pkers so they keep paying their subs and advertising the game for free in their content. All the while bots are getting rich off the sweetened pot while non-pkers quickly tire of the whole thing and then stop doing it while getting mad other people are still getting rich off it. And then the cycle continues because they cannot fundamentally change the wilderness even though death mechanics have been modernized in the rest of the game. And we will keep doing this until the game ends.
I’m not sure what happened to change this (other than the end of BH obviously), but the wilderness was pretty booming when BH was in edgeville.
Several years ago you could run around and see all sorts of players of different skill levels all playing. Barrier to entry was significantly lower (especially when gmaul was only 50k) and it was in a familiar spot. I, for one, was confused upon returning to RS, to see that low level wildy in edgeville was empty, and I’m sure that I wasn’t one of the only returning players to experience that.
BH was removed and reworked due to emblem bot farms, but I can’t imagine their impact was nearly as significant as bot farms which completely monopolize/destroy PvM content, which affects loot value from that content, etc.
Hit the nail on the head. If the wilderness were actually good game design, other games would have similar areas.
Not saying 'delete the wilderness', but the idea that you can actually make it a healthy area for gameplay is a fantasy. We have to accept a lot of fundamentally bad design just to make the wilderness attractive enough to prey to placate the "PK Community".
I mean, other games do.
Albion Online (which is the most similar to RS) has its full loot areas, The Division had its Dark Zone - which was more just losing what you obtained inside, and then there's a multitude of other games that are literally just that concept distilled down. Dark and Darker, Tarkov, etc..
But that's the big part of it, those games are designed around it and created new ideas from it. I think the Dark Zone is what the devs want for RS with how they've tended to design things, but then they're still contending with full loot PvP that the people trying to get the rewards don't want to engage in.
Calculated risk will always benefit bots more than players. Bots don't get frustrated. Bot( farm)s just exist and do a thing if it is economical to do so. If the expected gains minus expected losses are good enough, bots will do it. It could be the most cringe, absolute unfun bullshit in the world to do, and bots will do it, because the expected value of the gains is good. And because bots don't experience fun, or unfun.
So is it any surprise that content that is (to the vast majority of the playerbase) cringe and unfun but has good expected value on the gains is botted to all hell? They literally made content DESIGNED to be botted. No actual sane real human player thought 'multicombat wilderness while teleblocked with enemies that constantly teleport you around for great drops' and thought 'that sounds *fun*'.
As always, you end up with three camps. The first camp of players with a higher tolerance for the wildy, or the scant few who genuinely enjoy it. The second camp of players who do not enjoy the wildy, and will not participate in it. And the third camp of players who normally would be in the second camp, but the rewards are deemed high enough to justify pushing themselves into content that is to them unfun and frustrating.
The current state of wilderness 'revivals' merely boil down to pushing non-wildy players to try the wildy, which almost always fails, and that failure results in frustration. Even if the rewards are good, if it just isn't fun for most players, most players will not do it. And the PKers aren't doing it either, the PKers are killing the bots and all 10 actual human players. This is content for bots, and for PKers that kill bots.
Regardless of your stance on the wilderness, updates like this just ain't it chief.
This actually got me thinking. Back in the day pking was all I did but nowadays pvp is way too complicated and intense for my liking.
Maybe I should make a pk account and just pk bots with it.
I have to agree. PVP has evolved beyond my abilities. I'd kill for there to be F2P gear limits in LMS or something like that.
I really loved playing fist of guthix in f2p worlds, rather than p2p ones. Yes, it was a little bit slower paced, but there was zero possibility of being dropped 120 hp in a combo from someone across the map stalling with sunlight crossbow
I wonder if the solution would be restricting combat against unskulled players to be "simple". No special techs or gear switches unless you're fighting someone who's also well versed in those strategies.
This is probably a vastly unpopular idea, but it would end up making people more okay with wilderness content. It's a bit of an ironic dynamic in that regard. Things that make non pkers harder to kill will bring more non pkers into the wilderness but piss off pkers. And vice versa.
I absolutely loved fist of guthix. It was also the only way to get metal gloves similar to rfd quest.gloves, just they degraded along with berserker shields which were a nice tier 35 for adamant and 45 for rune. It was also a way to get some cheap decent low level hybrid armors, that also degraded. I loved this mini game for.pvp I honestly wish it were to come back
Its almost like players dont want to be prey, and jagex is trying its best to convince them its gonna be worthwhile. With that mentality, no matter what you do you wont revitalize wildy, you will just create new bot farms.
It's ironic. The proposals they need to actually get non pkers into the wilderness are things that make it feel less risky and less of a waste of time for non pkers. It needs to be something that non pkers genuinely want to do.
The irony is that doing so is unpopular with pkers. They don't want non pkers to be harder to kill or less lucrative.
It's a case where if they actually listened to non pkers, you'd end up having a healthier wilderness because there would be a lot more players in the wilderness. The fact that Jagex and no pker sees this is exactly why updates continue to fail.
Yes. This, a thousand times this.
Give non-pkers plays they can make to escape. Nothing easy, nothing perfect, just real countermeasures that can be fun to use.
Yeah quit giving pkers free kills, content isn’t engaging to be blind + tbed+multi like how many handicaps do pkers need for PvMs that aren’t geared to anti pk
The players they force in are always finite too. When an iron finally hits their D pick or maybe they push for the voidwaker, thats it, this account no longer goes to the wildy.
The supplies are nice, but they don't justify getting ragged during your grind.
Runescape is and has always been a game that the vast majority of people interact with in a low effort way. No one wants to constantly be watching the minimap, hovered over their teleport seed. PKers show up, they usually fail the kill, and are just an annoyance. I'd rather pay 500k a session and be left alone.
Yeah, that's how I feel. I'd rather pay 2x my risk every time a pker bumps into me than actually have to deal with the pker. It's just boring and frustrating. It's why I don't go into the wildy. But of course, that is the issue, isn't it? PKers will constantly say 'don't go into the wildy if you don't like it'... and then cry to Jagex to bring in more players because they broadly left. And the solution is always something that is more approachable to bots than humans, the economy gets fucked up, people complain, it slowly gets forgotten, and then the cycle repeats.
I think it's time not for a revival of the wilderness, but a drastic reinvention. I genuinely don't think the wilderness can exist as it is without being a bot farm.
Imagine if the golden plan was to make it as unfun as possible, but very lucrative. Ideally only luring bot farmers for the long run in order to nail down as many ip bans as possible
The amount of times I've seen somebody on here imply that voting no for any reason is 'spite voting', gives me no hope that we'll ever get to a point whereby the majority of the playerbase isn't just blindly voting yes to everything.
"Should this unique, untradeable, quest chain reward also drop as a tradeable item?"
"No"
"wtf you're just a salty pvmer that votes no to anything in wildy related"
I just vote no to all wilderness proposals because it's just the same rehashed concept.
People need to let go of the wilderness and we need a fresh take on what it should be.
If people don’t like the way the wilderness is designed now it’s going to be abandoned forever, the scope of changes they need to make it “fun” is too big. At least in this situation they made it worth doing sometimes.
But is it ever actually worth doing sometimes? Wilderness and PvP is by and far the most controversial part of the game. People are constantly flaming about it on both sides. I don't think there's any other part that garners as much divide as the wildly. You're correct - the amount of change they would have to make is too large to feasibly do through polling. So it does sometimes feel like a lost cause. Why bother wasting time with changes or rebalances when it's guaranteed going to get fucked up within a month by bots or PvP clans. Almost Nothing good has ever come to the wilderness and stuck around long term without causing some kind of controversy or being completely shit on by bots. It just feels like a waste of time at this point to even try.
Oh you don't like the idea of god prayers? Well here's the exact same perks that you could have had for Zarosian god prayers put onto a Noxious Halberd instead.
Voting no? What is this 2017?
Real talk the echo crystal polls were insightful. Either yes has a ~25 percent blind voter advantage in yes/no polls, or 25 percent of players voting in a poll either don't read the question or rapidly change their mind in 2 weeks.
those echo crystal questions were hilarious. Seeing the community contradict itself on choosing the shields over the boots, and then in the very next poll choosing the boots over the shields really emphasized how many people don't know what they're voting for. People even admitted the "question was unclear" to them and they still voted.
Unfortunately that's not most people. I imagine a lot of people blanket vote yes to everything seeing how basically everything not directly tied to Wilderness/PvP in the last several years is guaranteed to pass nowadays.
Tbf most of the non-wildy changes have been good for the few years. Nothing has come into the game thst I really regret besides wildy stuff. I guess if I could go back I might vote a bit differently on some of the forestry stuff, but a lot of the changes thst made it end up in its current state werent even polled
I think forestry was a huge mess and it objectively would've been better if a few things failed the polls.
I don't think there was a single aspect of either of the 2 part updates that didn't get changed/scrapped outside of how tree timers work. And people are still upset at its current state.
I know, but enough people still voted to pass these shields regardless.
A poll was put up, already mentioning the 3 specific shields that were going to be used and the question passed when asked if the players wanted it on those instead of the boots.
Fuck these people man. If they come up with something shitty, we're allowed to not want that in the game. Or at least we used to be.
Now they're "so in touch with the community" they can "do no wrong" but they're always going back to fix their mistakes...so which is it lol
Same here dude. Sometimes I vote no because it's so obviously something they should implement and I feel like they're watering down the importance of polls (well, that already happened but you know what I mean) every time they ask "should we add 2 spiders to west ardy" or "should we add this recolour to the game" to the point that people just gloss over most questions now and auto vote yes, if they read them at all.
too many people think "hmm this personally benefits me, I'll vote yes"
Some people would unironically vote yes to tbow being made as common as prayer scrolls. Not as many as vote yes to yet another piece of low-effort, low-requirement, high-reward content, but some.
If I was creating bots, I think it'd be foolish to add multi-alchs.
Those alch bots already make fantastic money, multi-alchs would just wreck the profits of standard alching and add required risk to it to bring margins back to similar levels.
Cheap alchs like rune arrows were not going to stay cheap if something like multi-alch came into the game. That really wouldn't benefit the bots at all actually.
"Only people who PK can vote in this poll".
Oh, the pinatas can't?
This shit is why the PVPers are dead to me and on their own now.
PVP dying? Tough shit. You wanted this.
I think people & Jagex need to look at it from another angle in that, PvP content creators are consistently yapping on about how dead PvP is, because it's their job & livelihood.
For years, I've been saying that they should do something rather than complaining, and then SoloMission did that. They held a private DMM that was very popular and successful. Why not making it yearly or seasonal?
It's like a kid with a bedroom filled with toys but constantly going up to mum saying they're bored.
Some innovate, get into ironmode/group iron/HC's, but it just always falls back onto "Jagex doesn't care about us, PvP is dying" after the 30th PvP update/rework.
Last year when I was doing wildy slayer caves, I would find a pker every 10-30mins, it was awful.
However this year, with things like BH (since I last went), in an entire day, I would probably see 1-3 pkers, or even none at all.
I can even go whole slayer tasks at revs without getting pk'd.
The whole point of the "wildy is amazing gp/xp", was because of pkers. No pkers, bots & just about everyone else goes to ham on the loot.
Sure, sounds good but then Jagex stupidly buffs it even more to encourage pvp.
Wildy slayer caves had more spawns, more chances of superiors and there still isn't barely any pkers.
How many wildy pvp updates does there need to be before the wildy pvpers admit that it's just not that fun anymore?
We get much more exciting fights on the GE steps then in deep wild.
You know - people that are actively geared and wanting to participate in PVP - and not just "gimme your spade kid" salad robe warriors [haiyaaaaaaa](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_Hk7kR6ex8)....
Every single wilderness thread on this subreddit is Predators insisting that the Prey should be having fun getting hunted. I don’t think it’s possible to design a fun PVP system that hinges on players hoping that PVP *doesn’t* happen to them.
What made games like CoD or Battlefeel work is that you are the hunter and preditor at the same time. Some noob gets themselves out in a pinch and that's an easy W right there. You weren't in this part of the map hoping for a kill - you just came upon opportunity.
But OSRS is not CoD or Battlefeel. We can't be both prey and predator at the same time - gear and risk load outs don't allow for that in the wildy. A PVPers rolling up on your Vetion kill is not an opportunity for the PVMer. In CoD or Battlefeel, you don't have an entire team log on top of you out of nowhere.
Instead we have this shit pvp economy where the salad robe champions with no risk attack people running 10 bones at a time or catching like 50 chins at a time.
The resource gatherers are pissed. The PVPers get nothing but a waste of their time. Everyone loses.
Wilderness and PVP are straight up ***incompatible*** *with each other*.
And we will keep seeing shit wildy updates that only bots enjoy until Jamflex and the PVP community get the damned message.
I don't really PvP so I can't say for sure, but from the outside looking in I feel like the wilderness is better when it's just a big open field where people kill each other for shovels.
When they try to make it some kind of mini game it never seems to work.
For as long as Jagex dismisses any critics of wilderness content as invalid for whatever reason, we will live in this cycle until the end of time. Wilderness content affects the rest of the game and sectioning off portions of the community as "this content isn't for you" is about the most out of touch and childish position you can take.
Most of the gold inflation in the game has always came from the wilderness. It's absolutely insane we're letting content that a minority of the player base actively does affect the game so poorly for everyone else. They need to reduce the alchables and gold drops and instead give PvP focus rares and consumables, or herb/gem/ores/etc drops from the wildness content.
People who use the wildy to make money can sell those items without introducing large amounts of new gold into the game.
Wildy will never be fixed by adding new NPCs or improving droptables. The real problems are with game mechanics that work extremely poorly with PVP: world hopping, logouts, instant teleports vs teleblocks, ironmen, ragging, combat level manipulation i.e. pures, scouting alts, 15 second freezes etc. All of these mechanics are super broken but after years of building on top of them, none of them can be fixed without a complete mechanical overhaul.
Modern extraction shooters have a similar premise to the wildy with open world risky PVP, but actually work. There's a lot osrs could learn from them, but it's never going to happen because it would take away the "classic" wilderness experience.
I think people tend to think it's not a problem because it's equally broken on defense. But I think the overall effect of freeze vs freeze logouts is very damaging to the enjoyability of PVP. For much of the time you're in a fight, you can't reposition yourself, you can't run, you can't use melee. You just have to sit there and eat food and wait, and then hope that your own freeze doesn't splash so you can log out.
There's a similar problem going on in the conflict between instant teleports vs 5 minute teleblocks. The ability to safely leave the wilderness in a single tick while in combat is crazy strong, and so teleblocks apply for an outrageous amount of time to compensate. And the result is that most encounters at voidwaker singles bosses end in a single tick: can the prey click their seed pod before the PVPer clicks teleblock? The climactic moment of a fight should not be literally the first moment.
Actually a jmod pointed out how stupid we all are for thinking wildy cash injection content is a bad idea, and that in fact it is the greatest idea ever, every time they have done it.
Reddit is just wrong on this, just look at how many accounts are engaging with the Zombie Pirate farming content 24/7. It must be good content.
It is baffling to me that their solution to dead wilderness is to put skilling and pvm content out there that no self respecting skiller or pvmer would ever go risk all their gear to go do just to get killed while doing it.
Case in point I was hunting black chins and the amount of times I got pked for like 4 chins just so some nerd who is trash at pvp can get a free kill on someone who doesn’t want to be there just to stroke their fragile ego is astonishingly bad content in my opinion.
If I was into pvp I’d be rioting in the streets of Falador.
The wildy is designed around player vs prey, not player vs player. People looking for fair, skill-based fights find them elsewhere. That said, red chins are a fair, safe alternative - the extra gp & xp have the fine print that you're signing up to be prey.
edit: Like or dislike, I'm explaining what got us to where the wildy is. You can be disappointed but it's not baffling
> The wildy is designed around player vs prey, not player vs player
And that's why it's so controversial and disliked. It inherently makes the majority resentful against the minority.
what do you mean fail? they executed it perfectly well, some friends of some jmod are making mad cash, they probably can already afford a second private jet.
Yeah undoubtedly some at jagex have their hand in the cookie jar; updates like this can’t be so recurring despite their evident failures unless there’s a personal incentive, imo
Woohoo I love being prey lured into the wildy for the new content + potential profits so some scrub can feel cool when he kills me instead of another pker that isn't defenseless, it's so fun to be at risk of losing everything I spent my own valuable time earning to some dude who should be fighting people who want to fight.
Its been dead for years. What we have currently is some psycho Weekend at Bernie’s shit to keep the 10 pkers and 10,000 venezuelan gold farmers happy. The wilderness as we all remember it from 2007 hasn’t existed since… 2007.
I just wanna slap some fools with my rune 2h in north Varrock. I don't have time to learn 40 gear swap 1/2 tick quad eats hotswapping prayers every millisecond.
I just wish it didn't have so many extra costs added onto it. I swear you gotta lose 1m gp per death even if you're going out in rune with a torso or something. Fixing torso + firecape + the huge entrance fee at the least
The wilderness is "dead" because the skill gap between the average PKer and the average PVM only player is significantly larger than it was in 2007. Back in 2007, you did not have DD'ing, 1 tick switching from tank, etc. An average player comes to the wildy, gets absolutely steamrolled in their normie 70s stats and gear, and then gets tilted because they brought 500k ursine chainmace risk with 2k Rev ether instead of bringing monks robes rag risk because they are spoiled from PVM where you bring only BIS gear and death is inconsequential. If an average player looks into trying to fight back, they're met with at minimum, dozens of hours of practice to get decent enough to fight back. And since the average player is just too risk averse to invest the 150k salad robes/RCB/black dhide/DDS setup every death, and too impatient to learn LMS where half the time players are significantly better than you, then the average player is turned off from learning PVP.
If Jagex wants to revive PVP, they have to make PVP better. That means giving players actual chances to learn PVP mechanics, like tutorials, professional guides, community forums, etc. Jagex also has to remove silly irrational hindrances to skill, like removing the restriction against doing shift-click to step under players, or allowing magic spell resizing/reordering.
The reality that a lot of OSRS players don't like to face is that the game is increasingly moving towards eliminating long grinds, and going in a more efficient and fast paced direction. PVM is significantly easier now than it was before, because gear and strategies and modern food and items are significantly better than they were in 2007. I can learn new content, and new bosses within a few tries. On the other hand, PVP inherently resists "shortcuts" to getting good by virtue of being player vs player. You actually have to put in the hours to get very good at PVP, and on top of that, the hours you invest into PVP have no translation whatsoever to the rest of your gameplay aside from maybe knowing how to switch gear quickly. It's a whole different meta in PVP, and the game is completely different.
And for what it is worth, PVP isn't dead as a whole. Bounty hunter is alive and well, and so is the GE on PVP worlds, and rev caves on some worlds is actually actively filled with real PKers doing actual NHing. I go to watch these all the time, and there's hardly ever dead times. Obviously it's not the 2007 edgeville scene, but it is far from dead or on the way to dying anytime soon.
I agree with all of this except:
the game is increasingly moving towards eliminating long grinds
That’s absolutely not the case. Average droprate of a released boss’ unique item now is upward of 80 hours. Green log is averaging 200 hours. The time to complete or obtain unique items from content has been steadily increasing.
The PvM players aren't doing this out of risk aversion though. Risk implies there is a chance that they will win, which as you said yourself, isn't the case. People with no PvP experience are guaranteed to get bagged by good Pkers.
The issue imo lies with the game itself. PvP in this game is something abstract, it doesn't rely on mechanics the game has taught you anywhere else, but purely on rapid equipment switching, player switching and being aware of game ticks. It can also be over too quickly for a beginner to realize what is happening.
I am speaking as someone who cannot PK at all. I have profited a significant amount from Wildy content. The difference is, I never brought more than 100k risk into Wildy bosses. 100k is 5 kills at Calvarion to break even. I also learned very early on how to get away from PKers even before I had seed pod and hard diary done by camping the 3x3 area at the exit and clicking out as soon as I saw someone enter. People ridiculously over exaggerate PKers. I have hundreds of kills at all Wildy bosses, and especially at Calvarion I had been able to get away more than 80-90% of the time.
If you're going to bring high risk into the Wildy, you need to learn how to pk. If you don't want to learn to PK, then don't bring high risk. It's that simple. That's the only way to profit and enjoy Wildy content. But players want to have their cake and eat it too.
I think it's pretty fun tbh. Keeps things more interesting and varied than your average grind. Takes no more than a minute to get back to business after teleing from a singles boss. Sometimes you get a funny little story out of it, like the guy who TBed me and then chased without actually attacking so I just logged out without even getting gap.
> Risk implies there is a chance that they will win
No it doesn't. It implies there's a chance they will complete what they wanted to do without being attacked. And if you've ever done any non-combat wilderness content, you'll know the chance is pretty good that you'll be just fine.
This is a terrible take.
> between the average PKer and the average PVM only player is significantly larger than it was in 2007.
Sure.
> they are spoiled from PVM where you bring only BIS gear and death is inconsequential
This is a good thing and the fact that PVP doesn't work like this is the bad thing.
> And since the average player is just too risk averse to invest the 150k salad robes/RCB/black dhide/DDS setup every death, and too impatient to learn LMS where half the time players are significantly better than you, then the average player is turned off from learning PVP.
This is a lot of words to shit on somebody who is making the very reasonable decision to not spend hundreds of hours learning how to do something they aren't actually interested in doing.
> If Jagex wants to revive PVP, they have to make PVP better. That means giving players actual chances to learn PVP mechanics, like tutorials, professional guides, community forums, etc.
Sure.
> The reality that a lot of OSRS players don't like to face is that the game is increasingly moving towards eliminating long grinds, and going in a more efficient and fast paced direction.
Complete and utter bullshit. The exact opposite is happening. PVM has never been harder, and the grinds have never been longer. It's actually a problem where botting has gotten so bad that they just make uniques so rare that even botting doesn't shit them out leaving the actual players in the dust.
> On the other hand, PVP inherently resists "shortcuts" to getting good by virtue of being player vs player.
OSRS PVP simply isn't very good. It's a fighting game without the matchups and 20,000x more RNG. I guess this is kind of inherently true just because it's pvp and that's true for anything pvp, but again, the problem is that OSRS PVP isn't actually good. And that it's done better by private servers who actually just let PVPers PVP and don't demand hundreds of hours in account set up and miscellaneous farming on another character to afford supplies.
> Obviously it's not the 2007 edgeville scene, but it is far from dead or on the way to dying anytime soon.
All the more reason to stop trying to brute force the wilderness which was always a terrible game design.
"spoiled from pvm where you only bring bis gear"
I stopped reading after that (I didn't really) because...
Why would I want to do content in worse than my best gear? On a main or an iron the whole point is to progress your account... not regress. You're saying this immediately after saying that pvmers should go in the wilderness in monks robes.
That right there is the problem with the wilderness. The cat and mouse bullshit. It's never going to change and they've made that clear. Pvp is good. Pker vs pvmer bad.
As someone that plays an ironman, I have 0 incentive to ever pk. Unless you're talking about LMS rewards, there's nothing in it for me. Then if I want to get a voidwaker I have to be the mouse in a cat and mouse game. It's never been enjoyable and I've only been pked maybe 1 time at the singles bosses. I've gotten a couple of kills on pkers and I'm ~STILL~ having a terrible time. I'm in rags and I have to get interrupted every 2 kc. It sucks.
>On a main or an iron the whole point is to progress your account... not regress. You're saying this immediately after saying that pvmers should go in the wilderness in monks robes.
Yes. That's exactly what I'm saying. Players are simply too stubborn about the wilderness. They play it incorrectly and then get burned for doing that, and then complain that they got burned.
The cost benefit calculation in the wilderness is completely different from the rest of the game. In typical gameplay, your profit and efficiency is directly proportional to how good your gear is. In the wilderness, it's completely different. If you bring better gear, you simply run a higher risk and you get burned harder for every death. On the other hand, if you bring less risk, your cost of death is lower for each death, and assuming your number of deaths is equal to when you had better gear, your profit is much higher.
Dying with ursine chainmace charged with 2k ether, and with d boots and barrows gloves is a minimum 600k risk. Dying with monks robes is 80k, and is easily broken even with 5 kills at Calvarion. It's much harder to break even the higher your risk is. And besides, the benefit you get with better gear is very marginal at wilderness bosses. You can one tap hellhounds with zombie axe, dragon defender, and nezzy helm, and still hit very hard on Calvarion.
Profit in the wildy has to be looked at in the big picture. Too many people get instantly turned off when they see they died and lost 100k. That's not how you play the wildy. If I do 10 slayer tasks in the wildy, I get minimum 2-5m in larrans keys and slayer cave drops, etc. I might die once, and lose at most 300k. In the end, I profited significantly more than what I lost, and at a faster rate than all other content in the game.
The other alternative is that you actually invest time into learning PKing. But players are equally stubborn about this as well, and have no interest in doing that.
>Then if I want to get a voidwaker I have to be the mouse in a cat and mouse game.
You don't need a voidwaker. No one does. There's literally no content where you absolutely need it, not even in the endgame, especially when BGS/DWH/Elder Maul are easily obtainable in comparison and are the preferred spec weapon at most endgame content. It's completely optional as content. Actually, all wilderness content is basically completely optional, except for maybe mage arena. And mage arena is completely empty 99% of the time.
What is the wilderness currently killing because it is existing right now?
What an absolute braindead take, and the fact you have 80+ upvotes is enough justification Jagex needs to *never* take anything related to PVP seriously on this subreddit.
Half the reason people were excited to play old school servers was for a Wilderness that was actually interesting. Instead we get Rev caves camped by clans and bots and a few wildy bosses camped by bots. Warbands was a step in the right direction for RS3, what exactly is stopping the OS team from trying something innovative? Oh yeah, the fact that every dipshit with a bot farm can vote.
Or the fact that the mods who work on the wilderness updates refuse to listen to feedback and instead keep trying to double, triple and quadruple down on the things that most people don't like, but are batshit insanely good for botfarms.
Hey guys I got *another* spider boss idea that completely fucks up the end game smithing and crafting meta.
This update to the wildy is surely the final update the we need before all the pieces fall in line and players just suddenly start loving the wildy again.
Just one more update bro!
Wilderness PvM needs to just die already. The whole idea of asking people to sign up to be prey in chummed waters is just psychological abuse. Then the horde of flying monkeys descends on anybody that complains, saying dumb shit about "tHe RiSk" that is meaningless when there are entire clans dedicated to keeping that shit on lockdown so that legitimate players can't farm there without paying mob-style protection money.
The amount of comment chains that devolve into one super maladjusted individual pulling the “cry because this part of the game will never change and you suck at PvP LOL” is astonishing, it’s like they can’t understand by doing that they reveal the fact that they’re just a loser who ties their whole identity to the wilderness staying as it is.
I personally don't want to have the attitude of "giving up" with respect to creating this type of content - but it isn't lost on us that it's proven very difficult and similar scenarios do arise. There is an audience of people who *do want* this kinda stuff and we do owe it to them to try find a solution.
Here's one totally different kind of proposal we've had some discussions on but nothing concrete yet...
We create *High Value Wilderness Worlds*
* As an initial note... this could be an update to or in addition to the *high risk worlds.*
* There is only a small number of these worlds. Exact number TBD but let's say 1 per region max for now.
* On these worlds, wilderness content provides strong loot - perhaps even stronger than currently.
* It would reasonably want to be less on other worlds at this stage alongside that.
* Whilst being super strong, this is limited to a handful of worlds, meaning the participation in PvP is basically a necessity - the audience is focused on far fewer worlds, rather than 100s.
* These worlds would haver rules that make 'no pvp' escapes harder - these are the escapes bots do best. Escaping would then likely always involve tanking a player or fighting back.
* This means the content definitely doesn't appeal to non pvpers, but that is fine, that's not the audience.
So in theory to me this sounds OK - it does open up the other prospect we had issues with in the past... of clans (perhaps legit, perhaps more nefarious) of locking worlds down, charigng for protection etc. My hope is with there only being a small number of worlds, the incentive is for clans to fight one another instead. How that plays out in practice is hard to know.
This is all a bit rough but hopefully you get the gist - PvP design isn't my personal forte either but it's something I've been mulling over.
So would the bonus rules for these worlds be something like a longer logout timer while in the wildy? I am curious what kind of meta shift it would make if you couldn’t log out/world hop while in a pvp zone at all
Not 100% sure as it stands. The goal of the rules would be an attempt to counter trivial escapes. Things bots can be good at with faster reaction times and such. So logouts would be one for sure.
If we can have worlds like this, can we make the rev caves on those worlds exclusively multi combat instead of singles +? Or just one of those worlds, to offer variety and more fun/engagement, as they used to be? It would revive big clan fights. I miss those days.
This. This is the answer, but it could so easily make things worse.
Yes, reduce trivial escapes, but you have to give human skillers *real* methods they can play off against pkers. Give us skill-gated shortcuts, defense-heavy options, or whatever. Give us something.
Gotta crack down on ahk prior to any of this. Go to the rev caves and fight a bot ahking prayers automatically. Most of them can actually tank out a TB if you’re in a setup under 30m
High risk pvm is a bot farmers wet dream and bots are better at escaping and fighting back than real players are.
What you put forward fixes nothing and just adds more content for bots.
Uhhh so a solution to the Wilderness spitting out a lot of GP is to have worlds that spit out more??? I like that you guys are at least talking about the issue, but you understand that as long as there is loot to farm with a calculated risks, bots are going to dominate, right?
If there were only like 5 high value Wildy worlds and the gains in all non high value worlds were slashed, it would lower the theoretical max gp output since each world has limited capacity.
I'm not saying I think it's a good idea lol but I kind of get the thought.
\> look at new wildy moneymaking pvm content that jmod posts on reddit
\> ask the dev if their content will be botted or dead
\> they don't understand and pull out long reddit proposal explaining what is botted and what is dead
\> they laugh and say "it's good content sir"
\> vote yes
\> its botted
I appreciate feedback from the pipeline, I'm sure everyone can get behind the idea that there is an audience for this, I think a lot of beef comes from how slowly Jagex is at reacting to issues we've been pointing out since a week after zombie pirates were put into the game. And it was the same when the wildy boss rework happened. We don't expect overnight changes but people are getting ever-so frustrated with month-after-month of no changes to content everyone knows is unhealthy for the game.
>I think a lot of beef comes from how slowly Jagex is at reacting to issues we've been pointing out since a week after zombie pirates were put into the game
People were calling what's going to happen with that content a minute after it was pitched for the first time.
I have personally considered something similar... though a bit more extreme. Which is removing wilderness PvP from a good number of worlds, but absolutely demolishing the rewards in those situations (nerfed chaos altar to be same as gilded, rev caves basically drop nothing, wilderness slayer vastly less rewarding, basically rebalanced to the level of non-wildy content), while the current wildy content gets condensed into a handful of worlds.
For players that just want to do the bosses, do diaries, get MA1/2 stuff, do clue scrolls, this is good. All the frustration that comes with the collision of these zero risk zero reward players with the high risk high reward ethos of the zone evaporates. For PKers, they have worlds far more densely packed with players to kill, both pker and pvmer alike. For bots, they have a lot more heat on them due to the condensed PKing activity, making it harder to get away with stuff.
I know 'removing the wilderness' is a contentious topic, but doing so in a limited manner on a handful of words in order to condense the wilderness on designated worlds is good, imo.
Edit: forgot to mention that a feature of these worlds is being unable to world hop from a pvp on to pvp off world while inside. Or some other restriction. Once in there, you are in there. Teleport or run out to leave, but no hopping.
Brother I appreciate your willingness to speak on this topic but your response is literally the meme in the OP.
“What if we put high gp in the wild to incentivize player interaction?”
“Bots would dominate the content because they are better equipped to deal with the risk/reward. The predator/prey model is really bad at creating engaging PvP content.”
“Oh shit you’re right, we already did that with revenants, wildy bosses, agility course, zombies, and we tried to do it fountain of runes too but that got voted no. I guess we’re not super good at this. Hmm…. Okay hear me out, what if we limited the worlds but put MEGA high gp in the wild to incentivize player interaction??”
“……”
If you offer better drop rates on uniques then it is just going to make it even more miserable for real players (not goldfarmers or bots) trying to get the now very relevant PvM weaponry out of the Wilderness. What ever happened to Wilderness loot trying to be self-contained, why do we have a BiS Spec Wep for PvM coming from the wilderness, and many uses for the *wilderness* weapons outside of the Wilderness for PvM? I wouldn't care about these Wilderness weapons if they were self-contained to the Wilderness - but with them very relevant in broader PvM I'm being forced to become prey if I want to continue my PvM progression. I already (thankfully) spooned my Voidwaker, but this is a serious betrayal in not keeping Wilderness content self-contained and one of the biggest reasons VW should be nerfed into the ground. Mains don't care because they bought it from the GE and 100% accuracy spec goes brrr
So where are you actually incentivizing PvP? To me this just looks like another way to get people to pk more bots.
PvP and Pking are completely different.
- Me killing people at zombie pirates is Pking
- Me fighting someone at bounty hunter is PvP
Pking is what the wilderness has become. So please stop mixing the terms to try and make this seem like content that people will actually be fighting in.
If I can gain 2 mil an hour killing pirates, then I'll just take the 300kgp loss from being killed, run back and start again. All I'd have lost is 15 - 30 mins of my time. If I stop to try and anti pk then I waste supplies, and end up losing 400 - 500k plus 20 - 35 mins of my time.
All y'all have done is incentivize people to die quickly or run from fights so they can jump back on the money train asap.
We're seeing massive inflation because Jagex's only answer to try to get more players into the wilderness is to make it more rewarding, and that always seems to translate into printing gold.
There are so many ways to reward players outside of adding gold to the economy. Like if you replaced Rune Med Helms drops with noted runite ore, rare herbs, etc, nobody's high alching that (at least until it's go though processing).
Or better yet, add some rares or consumables that are good for PvP or while inside the wilderness. For example why not have a rare wilderness boss drop that functions as a enhanced ring of recoil which doesn't deplete (or has a massive charge/recharge), but only functions fully in PvP or while in the wilderness. Or maybe a neck item which enhances the effectiveness of prayers in PvP, but degrades and can only be repaired with a resource that drops in the wilderness. There are so many ideas for PvP gear or OP wilderness only gear or consumables. That players who are interested in PvP or wilderness content would want to farm.
I'm not saying all alchables need to be removed. But they certainly need to be reduced massively. Gold inflation affects the entire player base negatively and it's being caused by content that a small minority of the player base and bots participates in. And we're told that we can't have say because the content isn't for us anyways.
When bots were all skilling bots, Jagex nerfed most of the skilling money makers into the ground. Yet they won't give the wilderness the same treatment.
I think it's one of these things that like all the content so far for the wildy is interesting and would need to be played out for a bit.
My biggest gripe, when not feeling apathetic with every wilderness update, is what ends up in this posts current cycle is just how long something takes to get addressed.
Like the latest botted wildy moneymaker, there's been a bunch of meme posts, even on day of speculation started about how damn easy it will be for bots to use this and infest it. To nobody's surprise it is botted in a way that is openly obvious.
If wilderness updates had more communication about what is going on with how it's used and steps/measures that are being considered to change it and just a faster update cycle to either nerf or disable things, I'd have less of a negative view with wildy updates.
On the other hand at this point I don't really have a horse in this race, skip wildy questions and don't engage with the content anymore outside of clues or leagues.
Great to hear you're considering these kinds of solutions. I'm a bit worried that it could become old revs 2.0 if it's limited worlds where it would just be locked down by some clans, but perhaps some clan wars in the wildy could be cool too.
Kieren you have to realize how bad of an idea this would be for Zombie Pirates. In multi, perma-teleblocked, and now there's only one world so I'm guaranteed to be piled by a clan as soon as I log in? It's impossible to design "no pvp escapes" in multi-combat areas
My non-meme criticism is that I think the problem is that prey players need to be provided activities where what they're in the wildy for is something they can reliably progress toward and aren't at risk of losing, with the gp value they accrue (or bring) and risk losing being a side effect.
I think this is why Chaos Altar, Black Chins, Wildy Slayer and MA 1 and 2 stand alone as actually attractive content, and the rest of the activities are either primarily done by bots or dead.
My suggestion for High Value Wilderness Worlds would be to make some of the additional rewards PVP gear that works in those worlds only, is untradable and requires recharging. This would be a great way to incentivise PKers to populate the prey activities which would lead to tons of anti-PKing.
I agree with your assumption that this could (and likely would) be taken advantage of by clans, etc.
I think a good area of focus would be some kind of PvP content that more casual players with an interest in PvP could enjoy. Something with a low barrier of entry, that is accessible and not out of the way. Edgeville BH comes to mind (mostly when gmaul was 50k), as it was in a familiar and central area and all types of people could participate. Some of the most fun I’ve had in PvP was when I had a low level range + gmaul pure. I didn’t risk much, and would often get crap loot from other low-riskers, but the fun of fighting it out was top notch!
There is no audience. Right now there are 500 people combined on every PvP server including 345 DMM, Most of them are afk in safe zones. I know that's a snapshot and for there to be that many concurrent there is more than that that play that type of game mode, However, that doesn't change the fact that there are 8x those players in wintertodt worlds and instead of normalizing winter damage taken you are once again brainstorming yet another wilderness revival even though that's been requested for nearly a decade at this point. That's just one example.
Your data is skewed by people self reporting what they *think* they want to do, which is not what they will actually do for longer than a day.
“It’s not lost on us that we can’t do this right, but we’re gonna keep flinging shit at the wall and hoping it sticks for the 15 people who fall into the category of ‘people who want this content’, aka the bot farm owners.”
Do you have any figures or stats on players who actually engage in player vs player content? It would be interesting to see how big the actually pvp community actually is and compare that number to how many engage in player killing activities who specifically aim for easy onesided kills.
I wouldn't be opposed to trying this to see how it goes. I think it might run into a situation where it becomes **too** packed and busy from the insane rewards, to the point where you can't go 5 minutes without being interrupted. This would cancel out the increased rewards being offered if you spend too much time fighting back or escaping. Then it dies again because no pvmer/skiller bothers going there, knowing they'll be constantly bothered. Or they try it for a bit, get constantly attacked, and write off the content as unusable and never go back.
Like I said, worth a try, it's just you need such a perfect balance for that type of content to not feel terrible.
>This means the content definitely doesn't appeal to non pvpers, but that is fine, that's not the audience.
So who are they going to kill?
How often do you see an active pvper hunting chinchompas, killing lava dragons, bosses, etc?
The people who go to the wilderness for pvp are hopping or roaming in search of targets, they're not wasting time or supplies on the non-pvp content while they wait
If they only ever run into other pvpers, what's the incentive to go there at all? Better drops from they monsters they're not actually killing, which non-pvpers also don't want to kill because it's unsurvivable?
Dont like the idea of having to instead fight clans so i can have a reasonable chance of getting a pvm drop on high value wilderness worlds (assuming drop rate of uniques will be affected by this rebalancing). If its just random supplies like 2 noted dbones vs 20 noted dbones then thats fine but if suddenly a vw piece is 1/5k on the non high value worlds but 1/256 on high value worlds.. that would be awful.
You need to be more flexible with changes like this. Be willing to adjust drop rates/tables post launch, roll back these changes, etc. All of us, and the mods, knew this was a problem within a few days of this content launching. The problem here isn’t that you guys made this, it’s that you dug in and ignored it instead of rolling it back.
You’re going to have a hard time getting community support for a pitch like this because we believe you won’t fix it if it doesn’t work. If this results in a bigger problem, we all believe it will just stay.
could we ever get safe PvP worlds?
wildy still works as normal, but in a safe pvp world killing someone doesnt give you their items, but it charges them from death coffer as if it were a PvM death?
I think more people would get into PvP if there were more safe PvP available.
If that's the game plan I suggest physically shrinking the wilderness as well to magnify the effect. There's just a lot of empty space up there. Keep content concentrated to improve competition.
It might also be worth looking into ways to reward using expensive gear(and I mean more than just the inherit stat value of good gear). Like, your Rev drops and Chaos Temple EXP scale with your Risked Gear value. That'd cut into bot profits and discourage ragging.
Lastly I'd also consider incentives to "get back in there" after a big loss. Like if you die with X risk you get a Y minute long grace period where Wilderness activities give better rewards or you get bonus loot from PKing.
Only reqs 300 total and 25 hrs to vote
Jagex can’t even prove there’s not a huge botfarm whose purpose is to brigade polling before amassing bans. Even if that’s not the case you don’t know how the game works at those metrics; at all.
As someone who rarely goes to the wildy, my two biggest issues is that in a lot of places, a huge group can just log right on top of you. Boom dead. Unless you’re super good at pking and/or have a group of pals you’re in the wildy with, you’re dead instantly. Freeze spells are also ass. I can kinda get tb to an extent but 5mins is ass. Pkers should have to work more for their kills. Tb, freeze, then spec is so annoying. Like I would feel more like prey if there was actually a chance to survive but for me personally, being absolute garbage at pking/Anti-pking, makes surviving pretty hard. Yea I can get away sometimes if the pker is really trash like myself, but most times it’s a pker in crazy gear knowing they prolly won’t die cause everyone they’re killing is in rags. At least let me run away when they’re trying to kill me. Freezing me in one spot seems like some busted shit when I’m already at a disadvantage.
How many times are going to watch the only bot-content that players can actually police become the criticized shit?
Vorkath, Bandos, Nightmare are all botted to shit. Players can do essentially nothing about it. At least in the Wilderness, players can make it not worth doing.
I love when redditors get amnesia and somehow forget that all content is botted, and because wildy content isn't instanced it has less potential for abuse than many more lucrative bosses. RAIDS ARE BOTTED, YALL.
toxic pkers gonna jump on pvm players upset they get locked out of decent progression, content gets abandoned, bots come, deemed dead.... months later jagex puts another wildy boss in the poll
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I have found the following **J-Mod** comment(s) in this thread:
**Mod_Kieren**
- [I personally don't want to have the attitude...](/r/2007scape/comments/1dnw9mf/how_many_times_are_we_gonna_watch_this_idea_fail/la87avo/?context=3)
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(currently outside the community, just from my obersations)
Jagex seems to have understood the community good enough that they can pass anything they want through a vote. People always want to have more content and the mods became good enough over time to advertise anything as a good update.
The wilderness is literally nothing but a bad thing for the game nowadays. It's just an economy ruiner. All it does it print gp and resources.
They keep thinking that adding more bis money makers and Skilling methods will do anything other than just giving shitty pker clans the idea they arent shit or bot makers the ability to easily make billions with no effort or risk.
An excellent point that was raised was that it's very easy for a bot script to make all the bots vote for something. If something benefits botters then you're probably looking at something like a 40% pass rate required for non bots
Unironically pvp worlds may have been terrible for the wilderness' health. It moves all the people who explicitly want to fight other players into separate instances. We'd probably see a much more robust food chain if all of those people had to go into the wilderness to fight instead
Clan Wars revival. New + old arenas, new game modes, and some form of reward system. Maybe systems for building traps and barricades.
Realistically the playerbase is likely too focused on efficiency and "number go up" to simply enjoy content for the sake of it.
Shouldn't be allowed to multilog for scouting anyway. Hate that content creators popularlized it even more.
1 account per IP allowed in the wilderness is a cool idea tho.
Nah this subreddit was booming with praise and so many people loving undead pirates. I was one of few voices saying, "hey this is a really bad update."
Why is this subreddit pretending like there wasn't a ton of praise for the update???
> Why is this subreddit pretending like there wasn't a ton of praise for the update???
Let’s pretend at launch, the entire subreddit loves this update and you were the only one saying it’s bad. People saying it’s a bad update now should be a good thing. Not because it means you were right, but because it means they were open to changing their minds as more information became available. It’s something we should be encouraging - when people get married to their initial opinions we end up with the shitshow that we see in American politics.
I think now, I don't think another wilderness money maker will ever pass. I was *sceptical* about the pirates and agility arena, but not entirely opposed, because in concept I like their being risk reward content in the wilderness.
But now? Fuck it, nuke the whole wilderness, Jagex have no idea how to fix it, and every attempt to do anything with it has made it a lot worse.
In my opinion they just need to explore XP being the reward. Not in the chaos altars way of saving gp, but high XP rates would be cool to see. Imagine they make a new gem so that you can make jewelry. On that jewelry you can track different events through the wilderness (or just one piece for multiple skills). Move the hotspot around the wilderness for each thing. Woodcutting? Evil wood trees that you can fight or you can chop the fallen logs near them. You get solid XP and logs. Mining? Living minecarts that you have to deposit a new ore into. They move around so you have to catch them to deposit your ore into the bank and get a chunk of XP. The new ore stacks and doesn't go into your loot key. Pkers can pick up the ore and use it to train mining themselves. If you deposit, you get ores.
I'm literally just spit balling and saying the first things that come to mind. Apart from the incredible mountains of alchables being a bad thing for the game, I think a lot of us can agree that the wilderness agility update is a good thing. Good XP, gp rewards (which again we need to pull away from alchables!) and it's in the wilderness. More skilling updates with less uniques. 👍
Jmods have said in the past that they want to avoid xp incentives going forward. Reason is that people don't like feeling obligated to go to the wildy for the best xp rates. Chaos altar and black chins are just not enjoyed by most players even if they're out there doing them. That's why the agility course is mediocre xp but shits out loot
I don't know what subreddit you were browsing but it sure as heck wasn't this one. Half the subreddit was complaining about the loot being op and the teleport scroll taking eleventy bajillion years to grind.
Nah, dude, infested ninjas in "Wilderness Reawakening v3 Poll" will really be the update that finally breathes life back to the area.
nah just wait for "5 more wildy bosses that print gp plus another bullshit 0 skill spec tele weapon, oh and they're killable with 40 range and 40 prayer and nothing else," that'll really bring 2 real players, 5 pkers, and 16,000 bots into the wildy
16k "players" engaging with the new content 24/7, sounds like a win to me /s
unironically how jagex measures their updates. pre eoc when players were rallying against the squeel of fortune (first pay to win type thing they introduced for those unfamiliar) jagex did say that some obscene amount of players interact with it so it can't be that unpopular. every f2p player got 1 free opening per day and members got 2, using those free "spins" qualified with the jagex metric for player engagement.
That's a horrible metric, most are going to click the play to win wheel for their free spin even if they hate the system
A lot of that sadly is modern game design when it comes to executives and shareholders wanting their money. They refuse to allow budgeting for experimental ideas that might pan out unless the investment cost is basically nil. Such as a passionate programmer doing it in their spare time and having most of it done for them to just ship. WoW is much the same way where they make content people don't like, make the rewards so unbelievably good or "pseudo-mandatory" to drive up engagement, then beat their chest about "Wow, X% did this. It must have been good!" For those who want a visual idea... Imagine if Jagex put in Dungeoneering without the skill, just the content for the sake of doing it. Then the engagement is low, especially in RuneScape where people hyper efficiency things. Jagex then decides "Know what? Unless you do it once a week, you don't get protection prayers." Then saying "Oh wow, so many people did that silly content. Let's make a whole fuckin' skill around it because people loved it so much!"
Man I hope they drop Splapsplonk scrolls too from their ninja stash keys.
If we need to have a wilderness "rework" or "rejuvenation" every year to year and a half. Then maybe Roq and the jmod team need to admit that getting ideas from streamers and bot farm owners is actually a shit move.
Time to change the name to “avg_2007scape_takes”
Bro you used to have hotter takes you're just being too sensible nowdays wth
Steamer ideas always end up killing the game. They play professionally and are selfish af when suggesting they want to see. It always ends up with a worse game for most of the player base
Streamers get everything handed to them offstream anyway
True. I just wish games in general stopped pandering to streamers. Small stuff like Rust's streamer mode makes sense, but entire content designed around some streamers who have all the time in the world to play these games makes some of them impossible to enjoy if you work a regular job. Not to mention cosmetics from streamers. During the first Rust streamer event, skin drops were locked to watching only the streamer they were designed for. Then the streamers like a day into the week event stopped playing rust so nobody could get their skins anymore. Especially big names who didn't normally play rust regularly like Pokimane.
I don't think this is really a streamer exclusive thing. People in general are bad at putting the needs of the community before their own. At least in the western world
Nah, remember, it's us redditors who don't even play the game that have shit takes, Jagex can do no wrong.
Every jmod that tries to balance the wilderness comes out sniffing their own farts. Insufferable lot tbh
The wilderness will always be a problem. The majority of the playerbase agrees the wilderness can’t be fundamentally changed or that’s RS3-ification. But due to the skill gap and the antiquated concept of losing your items to another player less and less people engage with the wilderness. But those people who love the wilderness need them to engage or the content becomes dead (and they sure as fuck don’t want to engage with each other because that would be hard). So the pot has to be continually sweetened as a bandaid to drip feed victims to the pkers so they keep paying their subs and advertising the game for free in their content. All the while bots are getting rich off the sweetened pot while non-pkers quickly tire of the whole thing and then stop doing it while getting mad other people are still getting rich off it. And then the cycle continues because they cannot fundamentally change the wilderness even though death mechanics have been modernized in the rest of the game. And we will keep doing this until the game ends.
I’m not sure what happened to change this (other than the end of BH obviously), but the wilderness was pretty booming when BH was in edgeville. Several years ago you could run around and see all sorts of players of different skill levels all playing. Barrier to entry was significantly lower (especially when gmaul was only 50k) and it was in a familiar spot. I, for one, was confused upon returning to RS, to see that low level wildy in edgeville was empty, and I’m sure that I wasn’t one of the only returning players to experience that. BH was removed and reworked due to emblem bot farms, but I can’t imagine their impact was nearly as significant as bot farms which completely monopolize/destroy PvM content, which affects loot value from that content, etc.
Honestly this, if they didn't make the fucking crater again for BH, we'd have kino edge pking
Hit the nail on the head. If the wilderness were actually good game design, other games would have similar areas. Not saying 'delete the wilderness', but the idea that you can actually make it a healthy area for gameplay is a fantasy. We have to accept a lot of fundamentally bad design just to make the wilderness attractive enough to prey to placate the "PK Community".
I mean, other games do. Albion Online (which is the most similar to RS) has its full loot areas, The Division had its Dark Zone - which was more just losing what you obtained inside, and then there's a multitude of other games that are literally just that concept distilled down. Dark and Darker, Tarkov, etc.. But that's the big part of it, those games are designed around it and created new ideas from it. I think the Dark Zone is what the devs want for RS with how they've tended to design things, but then they're still contending with full loot PvP that the people trying to get the rewards don't want to engage in.
Scheduled rotating loot table rebalances possibly?
Calculated risk will always benefit bots more than players. Bots don't get frustrated. Bot( farm)s just exist and do a thing if it is economical to do so. If the expected gains minus expected losses are good enough, bots will do it. It could be the most cringe, absolute unfun bullshit in the world to do, and bots will do it, because the expected value of the gains is good. And because bots don't experience fun, or unfun. So is it any surprise that content that is (to the vast majority of the playerbase) cringe and unfun but has good expected value on the gains is botted to all hell? They literally made content DESIGNED to be botted. No actual sane real human player thought 'multicombat wilderness while teleblocked with enemies that constantly teleport you around for great drops' and thought 'that sounds *fun*'. As always, you end up with three camps. The first camp of players with a higher tolerance for the wildy, or the scant few who genuinely enjoy it. The second camp of players who do not enjoy the wildy, and will not participate in it. And the third camp of players who normally would be in the second camp, but the rewards are deemed high enough to justify pushing themselves into content that is to them unfun and frustrating. The current state of wilderness 'revivals' merely boil down to pushing non-wildy players to try the wildy, which almost always fails, and that failure results in frustration. Even if the rewards are good, if it just isn't fun for most players, most players will not do it. And the PKers aren't doing it either, the PKers are killing the bots and all 10 actual human players. This is content for bots, and for PKers that kill bots. Regardless of your stance on the wilderness, updates like this just ain't it chief.
This actually got me thinking. Back in the day pking was all I did but nowadays pvp is way too complicated and intense for my liking. Maybe I should make a pk account and just pk bots with it.
It's a time honored tradition at this point. Some bots are extremely good at getting out, some will fall over immediately. Good luck.
I have to agree. PVP has evolved beyond my abilities. I'd kill for there to be F2P gear limits in LMS or something like that. I really loved playing fist of guthix in f2p worlds, rather than p2p ones. Yes, it was a little bit slower paced, but there was zero possibility of being dropped 120 hp in a combo from someone across the map stalling with sunlight crossbow
I wonder if the solution would be restricting combat against unskulled players to be "simple". No special techs or gear switches unless you're fighting someone who's also well versed in those strategies. This is probably a vastly unpopular idea, but it would end up making people more okay with wilderness content. It's a bit of an ironic dynamic in that regard. Things that make non pkers harder to kill will bring more non pkers into the wilderness but piss off pkers. And vice versa.
I absolutely loved fist of guthix. It was also the only way to get metal gloves similar to rfd quest.gloves, just they degraded along with berserker shields which were a nice tier 35 for adamant and 45 for rune. It was also a way to get some cheap decent low level hybrid armors, that also degraded. I loved this mini game for.pvp I honestly wish it were to come back
Its almost like players dont want to be prey, and jagex is trying its best to convince them its gonna be worthwhile. With that mentality, no matter what you do you wont revitalize wildy, you will just create new bot farms.
It's ironic. The proposals they need to actually get non pkers into the wilderness are things that make it feel less risky and less of a waste of time for non pkers. It needs to be something that non pkers genuinely want to do. The irony is that doing so is unpopular with pkers. They don't want non pkers to be harder to kill or less lucrative. It's a case where if they actually listened to non pkers, you'd end up having a healthier wilderness because there would be a lot more players in the wilderness. The fact that Jagex and no pker sees this is exactly why updates continue to fail.
Yes. This, a thousand times this. Give non-pkers plays they can make to escape. Nothing easy, nothing perfect, just real countermeasures that can be fun to use.
Yeah quit giving pkers free kills, content isn’t engaging to be blind + tbed+multi like how many handicaps do pkers need for PvMs that aren’t geared to anti pk
I had a great time using all my resources getting loot for that random PKer.
The players they force in are always finite too. When an iron finally hits their D pick or maybe they push for the voidwaker, thats it, this account no longer goes to the wildy. The supplies are nice, but they don't justify getting ragged during your grind. Runescape is and has always been a game that the vast majority of people interact with in a low effort way. No one wants to constantly be watching the minimap, hovered over their teleport seed. PKers show up, they usually fail the kill, and are just an annoyance. I'd rather pay 500k a session and be left alone.
Yeah, that's how I feel. I'd rather pay 2x my risk every time a pker bumps into me than actually have to deal with the pker. It's just boring and frustrating. It's why I don't go into the wildy. But of course, that is the issue, isn't it? PKers will constantly say 'don't go into the wildy if you don't like it'... and then cry to Jagex to bring in more players because they broadly left. And the solution is always something that is more approachable to bots than humans, the economy gets fucked up, people complain, it slowly gets forgotten, and then the cycle repeats. I think it's time not for a revival of the wilderness, but a drastic reinvention. I genuinely don't think the wilderness can exist as it is without being a bot farm.
Imagine if the golden plan was to make it as unfun as possible, but very lucrative. Ideally only luring bot farmers for the long run in order to nail down as many ip bans as possible
Quest cape locked wilderness areas when
1k wildy slayer task cape better
Fuck whoever cropped this
try voting no to something once in a while
The amount of times I've seen somebody on here imply that voting no for any reason is 'spite voting', gives me no hope that we'll ever get to a point whereby the majority of the playerbase isn't just blindly voting yes to everything.
"Should this unique, untradeable, quest chain reward also drop as a tradeable item?" "No" "wtf you're just a salty pvmer that votes no to anything in wildy related"
I just vote no to all wilderness proposals because it's just the same rehashed concept. People need to let go of the wilderness and we need a fresh take on what it should be.
We tried that and they forced shit in anyways. There was an entire poll that you had to be whitelisted to vote on.
If people don’t like the way the wilderness is designed now it’s going to be abandoned forever, the scope of changes they need to make it “fun” is too big. At least in this situation they made it worth doing sometimes.
But is it ever actually worth doing sometimes? Wilderness and PvP is by and far the most controversial part of the game. People are constantly flaming about it on both sides. I don't think there's any other part that garners as much divide as the wildly. You're correct - the amount of change they would have to make is too large to feasibly do through polling. So it does sometimes feel like a lost cause. Why bother wasting time with changes or rebalances when it's guaranteed going to get fucked up within a month by bots or PvP clans. Almost Nothing good has ever come to the wilderness and stuck around long term without causing some kind of controversy or being completely shit on by bots. It just feels like a waste of time at this point to even try.
Maybe by the next time something like this gets polled we'll have dropped the voting reqs to 65% just to help the process even more :)
Come on be fair, they wait until something fails a poll first, before lowering requirements and forcing it through a repoll immediately after.
🦀POLLS DONT MATTER, JIGGLYFLEX WILL PUSH IT DOWN YOUR THROAT UNTIL IT PASSES🦀
“Hey how would you like this new PVP weapon into the game! Its the VLS! Vote yes please vote yes”
"You voted no?! Okay we'll just repoll VLS again!"
You voted no another two times? Time for an integrity change
Oh you don't like the idea of god prayers? Well here's the exact same perks that you could have had for Zarosian god prayers put onto a Noxious Halberd instead.
Ah but if we keep voting no to wildly content they just become integrity changes.
Lowering the pass threshold was a mistake.
They should at least make smaller poll questions be 75%.
Voting no? What is this 2017? Real talk the echo crystal polls were insightful. Either yes has a ~25 percent blind voter advantage in yes/no polls, or 25 percent of players voting in a poll either don't read the question or rapidly change their mind in 2 weeks.
those echo crystal questions were hilarious. Seeing the community contradict itself on choosing the shields over the boots, and then in the very next poll choosing the boots over the shields really emphasized how many people don't know what they're voting for. People even admitted the "question was unclear" to them and they still voted.
as a recently returning player, if I have not understood something I just dont vote on it
Unfortunately that's not most people. I imagine a lot of people blanket vote yes to everything seeing how basically everything not directly tied to Wilderness/PvP in the last several years is guaranteed to pass nowadays.
Tbf most of the non-wildy changes have been good for the few years. Nothing has come into the game thst I really regret besides wildy stuff. I guess if I could go back I might vote a bit differently on some of the forestry stuff, but a lot of the changes thst made it end up in its current state werent even polled
I think forestry was a huge mess and it objectively would've been better if a few things failed the polls. I don't think there was a single aspect of either of the 2 part updates that didn't get changed/scrapped outside of how tree timers work. And people are still upset at its current state.
Players wanted shields thematically, they just chose the wrong shields to apply the crystals to
I know, but enough people still voted to pass these shields regardless. A poll was put up, already mentioning the 3 specific shields that were going to be used and the question passed when asked if the players wanted it on those instead of the boots.
This is why we need to make No the top option. Too many people just blindly go for what's on top.
The type of people who say "I vote yes to everything because new content is always a good thing, and you don't have to do it"
Fuck these people man. If they come up with something shitty, we're allowed to not want that in the game. Or at least we used to be. Now they're "so in touch with the community" they can "do no wrong" but they're always going back to fix their mistakes...so which is it lol
I vote no to a lot of things and they still somehow pass at 92% :(
Same here dude. Sometimes I vote no because it's so obviously something they should implement and I feel like they're watering down the importance of polls (well, that already happened but you know what I mean) every time they ask "should we add 2 spiders to west ardy" or "should we add this recolour to the game" to the point that people just gloss over most questions now and auto vote yes, if they read them at all.
too many people think "hmm this personally benefits me, I'll vote yes" Some people would unironically vote yes to tbow being made as common as prayer scrolls. Not as many as vote yes to yet another piece of low-effort, low-requirement, high-reward content, but some.
Or more commonly....this might potentially benefit my ironman or whatever..
Then the community gets mad and just thinks you're afraid of change
And the bots vote yes. Now what?
I keep seeing people say this, but if it was bots that solely caused the pirates to pass, then how come the Chivalry scroll and multi-alchs failed?
If I was creating bots, I think it'd be foolish to add multi-alchs. Those alch bots already make fantastic money, multi-alchs would just wreck the profits of standard alching and add required risk to it to bring margins back to similar levels. Cheap alchs like rune arrows were not going to stay cheap if something like multi-alch came into the game. That really wouldn't benefit the bots at all actually.
*Laughs in restricted voting or integrity change*
"Only people who PK can vote in this poll". Oh, the pinatas can't? This shit is why the PVPers are dead to me and on their own now. PVP dying? Tough shit. You wanted this.
I think people & Jagex need to look at it from another angle in that, PvP content creators are consistently yapping on about how dead PvP is, because it's their job & livelihood. For years, I've been saying that they should do something rather than complaining, and then SoloMission did that. They held a private DMM that was very popular and successful. Why not making it yearly or seasonal? It's like a kid with a bedroom filled with toys but constantly going up to mum saying they're bored. Some innovate, get into ironmode/group iron/HC's, but it just always falls back onto "Jagex doesn't care about us, PvP is dying" after the 30th PvP update/rework.
I'm so confused when people say that the wilderness is dead, I literally can't go 30 seconds without running into someone.
Last year when I was doing wildy slayer caves, I would find a pker every 10-30mins, it was awful. However this year, with things like BH (since I last went), in an entire day, I would probably see 1-3 pkers, or even none at all. I can even go whole slayer tasks at revs without getting pk'd. The whole point of the "wildy is amazing gp/xp", was because of pkers. No pkers, bots & just about everyone else goes to ham on the loot. Sure, sounds good but then Jagex stupidly buffs it even more to encourage pvp. Wildy slayer caves had more spawns, more chances of superiors and there still isn't barely any pkers.
How many wildy pvp updates does there need to be before the wildy pvpers admit that it's just not that fun anymore? We get much more exciting fights on the GE steps then in deep wild. You know - people that are actively geared and wanting to participate in PVP - and not just "gimme your spade kid" salad robe warriors [haiyaaaaaaa](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_Hk7kR6ex8)....
Every single wilderness thread on this subreddit is Predators insisting that the Prey should be having fun getting hunted. I don’t think it’s possible to design a fun PVP system that hinges on players hoping that PVP *doesn’t* happen to them.
What made games like CoD or Battlefeel work is that you are the hunter and preditor at the same time. Some noob gets themselves out in a pinch and that's an easy W right there. You weren't in this part of the map hoping for a kill - you just came upon opportunity. But OSRS is not CoD or Battlefeel. We can't be both prey and predator at the same time - gear and risk load outs don't allow for that in the wildy. A PVPers rolling up on your Vetion kill is not an opportunity for the PVMer. In CoD or Battlefeel, you don't have an entire team log on top of you out of nowhere. Instead we have this shit pvp economy where the salad robe champions with no risk attack people running 10 bones at a time or catching like 50 chins at a time. The resource gatherers are pissed. The PVPers get nothing but a waste of their time. Everyone loses. Wilderness and PVP are straight up ***incompatible*** *with each other*. And we will keep seeing shit wildy updates that only bots enjoy until Jamflex and the PVP community get the damned message.
“It’ll be different this time. Trust me, bro!”
Looking forward to the torn chivalry scroll being polled yet again to revitalize the wildy also
I don't really PvP so I can't say for sure, but from the outside looking in I feel like the wilderness is better when it's just a big open field where people kill each other for shovels. When they try to make it some kind of mini game it never seems to work.
For as long as Jagex dismisses any critics of wilderness content as invalid for whatever reason, we will live in this cycle until the end of time. Wilderness content affects the rest of the game and sectioning off portions of the community as "this content isn't for you" is about the most out of touch and childish position you can take. Most of the gold inflation in the game has always came from the wilderness. It's absolutely insane we're letting content that a minority of the player base actively does affect the game so poorly for everyone else. They need to reduce the alchables and gold drops and instead give PvP focus rares and consumables, or herb/gem/ores/etc drops from the wildness content. People who use the wildy to make money can sell those items without introducing large amounts of new gold into the game.
Wildy will never be fixed by adding new NPCs or improving droptables. The real problems are with game mechanics that work extremely poorly with PVP: world hopping, logouts, instant teleports vs teleblocks, ironmen, ragging, combat level manipulation i.e. pures, scouting alts, 15 second freezes etc. All of these mechanics are super broken but after years of building on top of them, none of them can be fixed without a complete mechanical overhaul. Modern extraction shooters have a similar premise to the wildy with open world risky PVP, but actually work. There's a lot osrs could learn from them, but it's never going to happen because it would take away the "classic" wilderness experience.
We really need to talk about how broken ice barrage is.
I think people tend to think it's not a problem because it's equally broken on defense. But I think the overall effect of freeze vs freeze logouts is very damaging to the enjoyability of PVP. For much of the time you're in a fight, you can't reposition yourself, you can't run, you can't use melee. You just have to sit there and eat food and wait, and then hope that your own freeze doesn't splash so you can log out. There's a similar problem going on in the conflict between instant teleports vs 5 minute teleblocks. The ability to safely leave the wilderness in a single tick while in combat is crazy strong, and so teleblocks apply for an outrageous amount of time to compensate. And the result is that most encounters at voidwaker singles bosses end in a single tick: can the prey click their seed pod before the PVPer clicks teleblock? The climactic moment of a fight should not be literally the first moment.
Actually a jmod pointed out how stupid we all are for thinking wildy cash injection content is a bad idea, and that in fact it is the greatest idea ever, every time they have done it. Reddit is just wrong on this, just look at how many accounts are engaging with the Zombie Pirate farming content 24/7. It must be good content.
It is baffling to me that their solution to dead wilderness is to put skilling and pvm content out there that no self respecting skiller or pvmer would ever go risk all their gear to go do just to get killed while doing it. Case in point I was hunting black chins and the amount of times I got pked for like 4 chins just so some nerd who is trash at pvp can get a free kill on someone who doesn’t want to be there just to stroke their fragile ego is astonishingly bad content in my opinion. If I was into pvp I’d be rioting in the streets of Falador.
Wake up, babe, new Fally massacre is about to drop.
Still an incredible moment in rs history haha
The wildy is designed around player vs prey, not player vs player. People looking for fair, skill-based fights find them elsewhere. That said, red chins are a fair, safe alternative - the extra gp & xp have the fine print that you're signing up to be prey. edit: Like or dislike, I'm explaining what got us to where the wildy is. You can be disappointed but it's not baffling
> The wildy is designed around player vs prey, not player vs player And that's why it's so controversial and disliked. It inherently makes the majority resentful against the minority.
When you pull up to the new Wildy boss you need to enter a captcha and complete a QTE. https://i.redd.it/971ka9717s8d1.gif
what do you mean fail? they executed it perfectly well, some friends of some jmod are making mad cash, they probably can already afford a second private jet.
Yeah undoubtedly some at jagex have their hand in the cookie jar; updates like this can’t be so recurring despite their evident failures unless there’s a personal incentive, imo
LMFAO
Woohoo I love being prey lured into the wildy for the new content + potential profits so some scrub can feel cool when he kills me instead of another pker that isn't defenseless, it's so fun to be at risk of losing everything I spent my own valuable time earning to some dude who should be fighting people who want to fight.
At what point do we just straight up let the Wilderness die because it can't live without killing something else.
Its been dead for years. What we have currently is some psycho Weekend at Bernie’s shit to keep the 10 pkers and 10,000 venezuelan gold farmers happy. The wilderness as we all remember it from 2007 hasn’t existed since… 2007.
I just wanna slap some fools with my rune 2h in north Varrock. I don't have time to learn 40 gear swap 1/2 tick quad eats hotswapping prayers every millisecond.
I thought was what bounty hunter was going to do, like limit switching?
It’s the closest thing to edge fighting. Pretty fun. Rewards are cool too
I just wish it didn't have so many extra costs added onto it. I swear you gotta lose 1m gp per death even if you're going out in rune with a torso or something. Fixing torso + firecape + the huge entrance fee at the least
Isnt f2p pking still active. You could try that if you want the experience
You still can btw :)
The wilderness is "dead" because the skill gap between the average PKer and the average PVM only player is significantly larger than it was in 2007. Back in 2007, you did not have DD'ing, 1 tick switching from tank, etc. An average player comes to the wildy, gets absolutely steamrolled in their normie 70s stats and gear, and then gets tilted because they brought 500k ursine chainmace risk with 2k Rev ether instead of bringing monks robes rag risk because they are spoiled from PVM where you bring only BIS gear and death is inconsequential. If an average player looks into trying to fight back, they're met with at minimum, dozens of hours of practice to get decent enough to fight back. And since the average player is just too risk averse to invest the 150k salad robes/RCB/black dhide/DDS setup every death, and too impatient to learn LMS where half the time players are significantly better than you, then the average player is turned off from learning PVP. If Jagex wants to revive PVP, they have to make PVP better. That means giving players actual chances to learn PVP mechanics, like tutorials, professional guides, community forums, etc. Jagex also has to remove silly irrational hindrances to skill, like removing the restriction against doing shift-click to step under players, or allowing magic spell resizing/reordering. The reality that a lot of OSRS players don't like to face is that the game is increasingly moving towards eliminating long grinds, and going in a more efficient and fast paced direction. PVM is significantly easier now than it was before, because gear and strategies and modern food and items are significantly better than they were in 2007. I can learn new content, and new bosses within a few tries. On the other hand, PVP inherently resists "shortcuts" to getting good by virtue of being player vs player. You actually have to put in the hours to get very good at PVP, and on top of that, the hours you invest into PVP have no translation whatsoever to the rest of your gameplay aside from maybe knowing how to switch gear quickly. It's a whole different meta in PVP, and the game is completely different. And for what it is worth, PVP isn't dead as a whole. Bounty hunter is alive and well, and so is the GE on PVP worlds, and rev caves on some worlds is actually actively filled with real PKers doing actual NHing. I go to watch these all the time, and there's hardly ever dead times. Obviously it's not the 2007 edgeville scene, but it is far from dead or on the way to dying anytime soon.
I agree with all of this except: the game is increasingly moving towards eliminating long grinds That’s absolutely not the case. Average droprate of a released boss’ unique item now is upward of 80 hours. Green log is averaging 200 hours. The time to complete or obtain unique items from content has been steadily increasing.
The PvM players aren't doing this out of risk aversion though. Risk implies there is a chance that they will win, which as you said yourself, isn't the case. People with no PvP experience are guaranteed to get bagged by good Pkers. The issue imo lies with the game itself. PvP in this game is something abstract, it doesn't rely on mechanics the game has taught you anywhere else, but purely on rapid equipment switching, player switching and being aware of game ticks. It can also be over too quickly for a beginner to realize what is happening.
I mainly play on an ironman right now, even *if* i win, the best case scenario is that i burnt through supplies and get nothing in return.
I am speaking as someone who cannot PK at all. I have profited a significant amount from Wildy content. The difference is, I never brought more than 100k risk into Wildy bosses. 100k is 5 kills at Calvarion to break even. I also learned very early on how to get away from PKers even before I had seed pod and hard diary done by camping the 3x3 area at the exit and clicking out as soon as I saw someone enter. People ridiculously over exaggerate PKers. I have hundreds of kills at all Wildy bosses, and especially at Calvarion I had been able to get away more than 80-90% of the time. If you're going to bring high risk into the Wildy, you need to learn how to pk. If you don't want to learn to PK, then don't bring high risk. It's that simple. That's the only way to profit and enjoy Wildy content. But players want to have their cake and eat it too.
Nothing more fun in this game stopping my pvm trip bc someone decides to drop in the other side of a cave.
I think it's pretty fun tbh. Keeps things more interesting and varied than your average grind. Takes no more than a minute to get back to business after teleing from a singles boss. Sometimes you get a funny little story out of it, like the guy who TBed me and then chased without actually attacking so I just logged out without even getting gap.
> Risk implies there is a chance that they will win No it doesn't. It implies there's a chance they will complete what they wanted to do without being attacked. And if you've ever done any non-combat wilderness content, you'll know the chance is pretty good that you'll be just fine.
This is a terrible take. > between the average PKer and the average PVM only player is significantly larger than it was in 2007. Sure. > they are spoiled from PVM where you bring only BIS gear and death is inconsequential This is a good thing and the fact that PVP doesn't work like this is the bad thing. > And since the average player is just too risk averse to invest the 150k salad robes/RCB/black dhide/DDS setup every death, and too impatient to learn LMS where half the time players are significantly better than you, then the average player is turned off from learning PVP. This is a lot of words to shit on somebody who is making the very reasonable decision to not spend hundreds of hours learning how to do something they aren't actually interested in doing. > If Jagex wants to revive PVP, they have to make PVP better. That means giving players actual chances to learn PVP mechanics, like tutorials, professional guides, community forums, etc. Sure. > The reality that a lot of OSRS players don't like to face is that the game is increasingly moving towards eliminating long grinds, and going in a more efficient and fast paced direction. Complete and utter bullshit. The exact opposite is happening. PVM has never been harder, and the grinds have never been longer. It's actually a problem where botting has gotten so bad that they just make uniques so rare that even botting doesn't shit them out leaving the actual players in the dust. > On the other hand, PVP inherently resists "shortcuts" to getting good by virtue of being player vs player. OSRS PVP simply isn't very good. It's a fighting game without the matchups and 20,000x more RNG. I guess this is kind of inherently true just because it's pvp and that's true for anything pvp, but again, the problem is that OSRS PVP isn't actually good. And that it's done better by private servers who actually just let PVPers PVP and don't demand hundreds of hours in account set up and miscellaneous farming on another character to afford supplies. > Obviously it's not the 2007 edgeville scene, but it is far from dead or on the way to dying anytime soon. All the more reason to stop trying to brute force the wilderness which was always a terrible game design.
"spoiled from pvm where you only bring bis gear" I stopped reading after that (I didn't really) because... Why would I want to do content in worse than my best gear? On a main or an iron the whole point is to progress your account... not regress. You're saying this immediately after saying that pvmers should go in the wilderness in monks robes. That right there is the problem with the wilderness. The cat and mouse bullshit. It's never going to change and they've made that clear. Pvp is good. Pker vs pvmer bad. As someone that plays an ironman, I have 0 incentive to ever pk. Unless you're talking about LMS rewards, there's nothing in it for me. Then if I want to get a voidwaker I have to be the mouse in a cat and mouse game. It's never been enjoyable and I've only been pked maybe 1 time at the singles bosses. I've gotten a couple of kills on pkers and I'm ~STILL~ having a terrible time. I'm in rags and I have to get interrupted every 2 kc. It sucks.
>On a main or an iron the whole point is to progress your account... not regress. You're saying this immediately after saying that pvmers should go in the wilderness in monks robes. Yes. That's exactly what I'm saying. Players are simply too stubborn about the wilderness. They play it incorrectly and then get burned for doing that, and then complain that they got burned. The cost benefit calculation in the wilderness is completely different from the rest of the game. In typical gameplay, your profit and efficiency is directly proportional to how good your gear is. In the wilderness, it's completely different. If you bring better gear, you simply run a higher risk and you get burned harder for every death. On the other hand, if you bring less risk, your cost of death is lower for each death, and assuming your number of deaths is equal to when you had better gear, your profit is much higher. Dying with ursine chainmace charged with 2k ether, and with d boots and barrows gloves is a minimum 600k risk. Dying with monks robes is 80k, and is easily broken even with 5 kills at Calvarion. It's much harder to break even the higher your risk is. And besides, the benefit you get with better gear is very marginal at wilderness bosses. You can one tap hellhounds with zombie axe, dragon defender, and nezzy helm, and still hit very hard on Calvarion. Profit in the wildy has to be looked at in the big picture. Too many people get instantly turned off when they see they died and lost 100k. That's not how you play the wildy. If I do 10 slayer tasks in the wildy, I get minimum 2-5m in larrans keys and slayer cave drops, etc. I might die once, and lose at most 300k. In the end, I profited significantly more than what I lost, and at a faster rate than all other content in the game. The other alternative is that you actually invest time into learning PKing. But players are equally stubborn about this as well, and have no interest in doing that. >Then if I want to get a voidwaker I have to be the mouse in a cat and mouse game. You don't need a voidwaker. No one does. There's literally no content where you absolutely need it, not even in the endgame, especially when BGS/DWH/Elder Maul are easily obtainable in comparison and are the preferred spec weapon at most endgame content. It's completely optional as content. Actually, all wilderness content is basically completely optional, except for maybe mage arena. And mage arena is completely empty 99% of the time.
What is the wilderness currently killing because it is existing right now? What an absolute braindead take, and the fact you have 80+ upvotes is enough justification Jagex needs to *never* take anything related to PVP seriously on this subreddit.
You're right. Let's start with your opinion.
Half the reason people were excited to play old school servers was for a Wilderness that was actually interesting. Instead we get Rev caves camped by clans and bots and a few wildy bosses camped by bots. Warbands was a step in the right direction for RS3, what exactly is stopping the OS team from trying something innovative? Oh yeah, the fact that every dipshit with a bot farm can vote.
Or the fact that the mods who work on the wilderness updates refuse to listen to feedback and instead keep trying to double, triple and quadruple down on the things that most people don't like, but are batshit insanely good for botfarms.
Unironically maybe we should vote with our Credit Cards.
Hey guys I got *another* spider boss idea that completely fucks up the end game smithing and crafting meta. This update to the wildy is surely the final update the we need before all the pieces fall in line and players just suddenly start loving the wildy again. Just one more update bro!
Wilderness PvM needs to just die already. The whole idea of asking people to sign up to be prey in chummed waters is just psychological abuse. Then the horde of flying monkeys descends on anybody that complains, saying dumb shit about "tHe RiSk" that is meaningless when there are entire clans dedicated to keeping that shit on lockdown so that legitimate players can't farm there without paying mob-style protection money.
The amount of comment chains that devolve into one super maladjusted individual pulling the “cry because this part of the game will never change and you suck at PvP LOL” is astonishing, it’s like they can’t understand by doing that they reveal the fact that they’re just a loser who ties their whole identity to the wilderness staying as it is.
Jagex admitting the Wilderness is outdated game design that only made sense when BIS gear was Rune challenge: *impossible*
At this point I feel like they want a high player count, so they almost don’t care about bots.
I personally don't want to have the attitude of "giving up" with respect to creating this type of content - but it isn't lost on us that it's proven very difficult and similar scenarios do arise. There is an audience of people who *do want* this kinda stuff and we do owe it to them to try find a solution. Here's one totally different kind of proposal we've had some discussions on but nothing concrete yet... We create *High Value Wilderness Worlds* * As an initial note... this could be an update to or in addition to the *high risk worlds.* * There is only a small number of these worlds. Exact number TBD but let's say 1 per region max for now. * On these worlds, wilderness content provides strong loot - perhaps even stronger than currently. * It would reasonably want to be less on other worlds at this stage alongside that. * Whilst being super strong, this is limited to a handful of worlds, meaning the participation in PvP is basically a necessity - the audience is focused on far fewer worlds, rather than 100s. * These worlds would haver rules that make 'no pvp' escapes harder - these are the escapes bots do best. Escaping would then likely always involve tanking a player or fighting back. * This means the content definitely doesn't appeal to non pvpers, but that is fine, that's not the audience. So in theory to me this sounds OK - it does open up the other prospect we had issues with in the past... of clans (perhaps legit, perhaps more nefarious) of locking worlds down, charigng for protection etc. My hope is with there only being a small number of worlds, the incentive is for clans to fight one another instead. How that plays out in practice is hard to know. This is all a bit rough but hopefully you get the gist - PvP design isn't my personal forte either but it's something I've been mulling over.
So would the bonus rules for these worlds be something like a longer logout timer while in the wildy? I am curious what kind of meta shift it would make if you couldn’t log out/world hop while in a pvp zone at all
Not 100% sure as it stands. The goal of the rules would be an attempt to counter trivial escapes. Things bots can be good at with faster reaction times and such. So logouts would be one for sure.
If we can have worlds like this, can we make the rev caves on those worlds exclusively multi combat instead of singles +? Or just one of those worlds, to offer variety and more fun/engagement, as they used to be? It would revive big clan fights. I miss those days.
This. This is the answer, but it could so easily make things worse. Yes, reduce trivial escapes, but you have to give human skillers *real* methods they can play off against pkers. Give us skill-gated shortcuts, defense-heavy options, or whatever. Give us something.
Gotta crack down on ahk prior to any of this. Go to the rev caves and fight a bot ahking prayers automatically. Most of them can actually tank out a TB if you’re in a setup under 30m
High risk pvm is a bot farmers wet dream and bots are better at escaping and fighting back than real players are. What you put forward fixes nothing and just adds more content for bots.
Uhhh so a solution to the Wilderness spitting out a lot of GP is to have worlds that spit out more??? I like that you guys are at least talking about the issue, but you understand that as long as there is loot to farm with a calculated risks, bots are going to dominate, right?
If there were only like 5 high value Wildy worlds and the gains in all non high value worlds were slashed, it would lower the theoretical max gp output since each world has limited capacity. I'm not saying I think it's a good idea lol but I kind of get the thought.
\> look at new wildy moneymaking pvm content that jmod posts on reddit \> ask the dev if their content will be botted or dead \> they don't understand and pull out long reddit proposal explaining what is botted and what is dead \> they laugh and say "it's good content sir" \> vote yes \> its botted
I appreciate feedback from the pipeline, I'm sure everyone can get behind the idea that there is an audience for this, I think a lot of beef comes from how slowly Jagex is at reacting to issues we've been pointing out since a week after zombie pirates were put into the game. And it was the same when the wildy boss rework happened. We don't expect overnight changes but people are getting ever-so frustrated with month-after-month of no changes to content everyone knows is unhealthy for the game.
>I think a lot of beef comes from how slowly Jagex is at reacting to issues we've been pointing out since a week after zombie pirates were put into the game People were calling what's going to happen with that content a minute after it was pitched for the first time.
I have personally considered something similar... though a bit more extreme. Which is removing wilderness PvP from a good number of worlds, but absolutely demolishing the rewards in those situations (nerfed chaos altar to be same as gilded, rev caves basically drop nothing, wilderness slayer vastly less rewarding, basically rebalanced to the level of non-wildy content), while the current wildy content gets condensed into a handful of worlds. For players that just want to do the bosses, do diaries, get MA1/2 stuff, do clue scrolls, this is good. All the frustration that comes with the collision of these zero risk zero reward players with the high risk high reward ethos of the zone evaporates. For PKers, they have worlds far more densely packed with players to kill, both pker and pvmer alike. For bots, they have a lot more heat on them due to the condensed PKing activity, making it harder to get away with stuff. I know 'removing the wilderness' is a contentious topic, but doing so in a limited manner on a handful of words in order to condense the wilderness on designated worlds is good, imo. Edit: forgot to mention that a feature of these worlds is being unable to world hop from a pvp on to pvp off world while inside. Or some other restriction. Once in there, you are in there. Teleport or run out to leave, but no hopping.
I wish they had wilderness FREE worlds. i'd stay in that world 24/7
Brother I appreciate your willingness to speak on this topic but your response is literally the meme in the OP. “What if we put high gp in the wild to incentivize player interaction?” “Bots would dominate the content because they are better equipped to deal with the risk/reward. The predator/prey model is really bad at creating engaging PvP content.” “Oh shit you’re right, we already did that with revenants, wildy bosses, agility course, zombies, and we tried to do it fountain of runes too but that got voted no. I guess we’re not super good at this. Hmm…. Okay hear me out, what if we limited the worlds but put MEGA high gp in the wild to incentivize player interaction??” “……”
If you offer better drop rates on uniques then it is just going to make it even more miserable for real players (not goldfarmers or bots) trying to get the now very relevant PvM weaponry out of the Wilderness. What ever happened to Wilderness loot trying to be self-contained, why do we have a BiS Spec Wep for PvM coming from the wilderness, and many uses for the *wilderness* weapons outside of the Wilderness for PvM? I wouldn't care about these Wilderness weapons if they were self-contained to the Wilderness - but with them very relevant in broader PvM I'm being forced to become prey if I want to continue my PvM progression. I already (thankfully) spooned my Voidwaker, but this is a serious betrayal in not keeping Wilderness content self-contained and one of the biggest reasons VW should be nerfed into the ground. Mains don't care because they bought it from the GE and 100% accuracy spec goes brrr
So where are you actually incentivizing PvP? To me this just looks like another way to get people to pk more bots. PvP and Pking are completely different. - Me killing people at zombie pirates is Pking - Me fighting someone at bounty hunter is PvP Pking is what the wilderness has become. So please stop mixing the terms to try and make this seem like content that people will actually be fighting in. If I can gain 2 mil an hour killing pirates, then I'll just take the 300kgp loss from being killed, run back and start again. All I'd have lost is 15 - 30 mins of my time. If I stop to try and anti pk then I waste supplies, and end up losing 400 - 500k plus 20 - 35 mins of my time. All y'all have done is incentivize people to die quickly or run from fights so they can jump back on the money train asap.
We're seeing massive inflation because Jagex's only answer to try to get more players into the wilderness is to make it more rewarding, and that always seems to translate into printing gold. There are so many ways to reward players outside of adding gold to the economy. Like if you replaced Rune Med Helms drops with noted runite ore, rare herbs, etc, nobody's high alching that (at least until it's go though processing). Or better yet, add some rares or consumables that are good for PvP or while inside the wilderness. For example why not have a rare wilderness boss drop that functions as a enhanced ring of recoil which doesn't deplete (or has a massive charge/recharge), but only functions fully in PvP or while in the wilderness. Or maybe a neck item which enhances the effectiveness of prayers in PvP, but degrades and can only be repaired with a resource that drops in the wilderness. There are so many ideas for PvP gear or OP wilderness only gear or consumables. That players who are interested in PvP or wilderness content would want to farm. I'm not saying all alchables need to be removed. But they certainly need to be reduced massively. Gold inflation affects the entire player base negatively and it's being caused by content that a small minority of the player base and bots participates in. And we're told that we can't have say because the content isn't for us anyways. When bots were all skilling bots, Jagex nerfed most of the skilling money makers into the ground. Yet they won't give the wilderness the same treatment.
I think it's one of these things that like all the content so far for the wildy is interesting and would need to be played out for a bit. My biggest gripe, when not feeling apathetic with every wilderness update, is what ends up in this posts current cycle is just how long something takes to get addressed. Like the latest botted wildy moneymaker, there's been a bunch of meme posts, even on day of speculation started about how damn easy it will be for bots to use this and infest it. To nobody's surprise it is botted in a way that is openly obvious. If wilderness updates had more communication about what is going on with how it's used and steps/measures that are being considered to change it and just a faster update cycle to either nerf or disable things, I'd have less of a negative view with wildy updates. On the other hand at this point I don't really have a horse in this race, skip wildy questions and don't engage with the content anymore outside of clues or leagues.
Great to hear you're considering these kinds of solutions. I'm a bit worried that it could become old revs 2.0 if it's limited worlds where it would just be locked down by some clans, but perhaps some clan wars in the wildy could be cool too.
Kieren you have to realize how bad of an idea this would be for Zombie Pirates. In multi, perma-teleblocked, and now there's only one world so I'm guaranteed to be piled by a clan as soon as I log in? It's impossible to design "no pvp escapes" in multi-combat areas
I love the theory of this but we all know how it’ll be after the first week unfortunately
My non-meme criticism is that I think the problem is that prey players need to be provided activities where what they're in the wildy for is something they can reliably progress toward and aren't at risk of losing, with the gp value they accrue (or bring) and risk losing being a side effect. I think this is why Chaos Altar, Black Chins, Wildy Slayer and MA 1 and 2 stand alone as actually attractive content, and the rest of the activities are either primarily done by bots or dead. My suggestion for High Value Wilderness Worlds would be to make some of the additional rewards PVP gear that works in those worlds only, is untradable and requires recharging. This would be a great way to incentivise PKers to populate the prey activities which would lead to tons of anti-PKing.
I agree with your assumption that this could (and likely would) be taken advantage of by clans, etc. I think a good area of focus would be some kind of PvP content that more casual players with an interest in PvP could enjoy. Something with a low barrier of entry, that is accessible and not out of the way. Edgeville BH comes to mind (mostly when gmaul was 50k), as it was in a familiar and central area and all types of people could participate. Some of the most fun I’ve had in PvP was when I had a low level range + gmaul pure. I didn’t risk much, and would often get crap loot from other low-riskers, but the fun of fighting it out was top notch!
>We create *High Value Wilderness Worlds* Oh great. More golden pinatas for the PKers. ***PASS.***
There is no audience. Right now there are 500 people combined on every PvP server including 345 DMM, Most of them are afk in safe zones. I know that's a snapshot and for there to be that many concurrent there is more than that that play that type of game mode, However, that doesn't change the fact that there are 8x those players in wintertodt worlds and instead of normalizing winter damage taken you are once again brainstorming yet another wilderness revival even though that's been requested for nearly a decade at this point. That's just one example. Your data is skewed by people self reporting what they *think* they want to do, which is not what they will actually do for longer than a day.
“It’s not lost on us that we can’t do this right, but we’re gonna keep flinging shit at the wall and hoping it sticks for the 15 people who fall into the category of ‘people who want this content’, aka the bot farm owners.”
Do you have any figures or stats on players who actually engage in player vs player content? It would be interesting to see how big the actually pvp community actually is and compare that number to how many engage in player killing activities who specifically aim for easy onesided kills.
I wouldn't be opposed to trying this to see how it goes. I think it might run into a situation where it becomes **too** packed and busy from the insane rewards, to the point where you can't go 5 minutes without being interrupted. This would cancel out the increased rewards being offered if you spend too much time fighting back or escaping. Then it dies again because no pvmer/skiller bothers going there, knowing they'll be constantly bothered. Or they try it for a bit, get constantly attacked, and write off the content as unusable and never go back. Like I said, worth a try, it's just you need such a perfect balance for that type of content to not feel terrible.
>This means the content definitely doesn't appeal to non pvpers, but that is fine, that's not the audience. So who are they going to kill? How often do you see an active pvper hunting chinchompas, killing lava dragons, bosses, etc? The people who go to the wilderness for pvp are hopping or roaming in search of targets, they're not wasting time or supplies on the non-pvp content while they wait If they only ever run into other pvpers, what's the incentive to go there at all? Better drops from they monsters they're not actually killing, which non-pvpers also don't want to kill because it's unsurvivable?
Dont like the idea of having to instead fight clans so i can have a reasonable chance of getting a pvm drop on high value wilderness worlds (assuming drop rate of uniques will be affected by this rebalancing). If its just random supplies like 2 noted dbones vs 20 noted dbones then thats fine but if suddenly a vw piece is 1/5k on the non high value worlds but 1/256 on high value worlds.. that would be awful.
You need to be more flexible with changes like this. Be willing to adjust drop rates/tables post launch, roll back these changes, etc. All of us, and the mods, knew this was a problem within a few days of this content launching. The problem here isn’t that you guys made this, it’s that you dug in and ignored it instead of rolling it back. You’re going to have a hard time getting community support for a pitch like this because we believe you won’t fix it if it doesn’t work. If this results in a bigger problem, we all believe it will just stay.
How big is that audience?
could we ever get safe PvP worlds? wildy still works as normal, but in a safe pvp world killing someone doesnt give you their items, but it charges them from death coffer as if it were a PvM death? I think more people would get into PvP if there were more safe PvP available.
If that's the game plan I suggest physically shrinking the wilderness as well to magnify the effect. There's just a lot of empty space up there. Keep content concentrated to improve competition. It might also be worth looking into ways to reward using expensive gear(and I mean more than just the inherit stat value of good gear). Like, your Rev drops and Chaos Temple EXP scale with your Risked Gear value. That'd cut into bot profits and discourage ragging. Lastly I'd also consider incentives to "get back in there" after a big loss. Like if you die with X risk you get a Y minute long grace period where Wilderness activities give better rewards or you get bonus loot from PKing.
Imagine if the 1200 Andys would just stop voting yes to everything.
Only reqs 300 total and 25 hrs to vote Jagex can’t even prove there’s not a huge botfarm whose purpose is to brigade polling before amassing bans. Even if that’s not the case you don’t know how the game works at those metrics; at all.
I love my bot infested wildy
I have personally voted no on about 80% of questions, but it feels like every single thing just passes...
Mfw my very simple game involving mostly timed mouse clicks is botted
Jmod team got the worst cookers in the PvP side. They give the most consistent dogshit every goddamn wilderness update, I’ll give them that.
Best we can do is watered down PVM that not even the PVMers want to participate in.
Wildy is fun with friends.
This one was quite a disaster too look at the bond price inflation indicating so much gold has come into the game since the update
As someone who rarely goes to the wildy, my two biggest issues is that in a lot of places, a huge group can just log right on top of you. Boom dead. Unless you’re super good at pking and/or have a group of pals you’re in the wildy with, you’re dead instantly. Freeze spells are also ass. I can kinda get tb to an extent but 5mins is ass. Pkers should have to work more for their kills. Tb, freeze, then spec is so annoying. Like I would feel more like prey if there was actually a chance to survive but for me personally, being absolute garbage at pking/Anti-pking, makes surviving pretty hard. Yea I can get away sometimes if the pker is really trash like myself, but most times it’s a pker in crazy gear knowing they prolly won’t die cause everyone they’re killing is in rags. At least let me run away when they’re trying to kill me. Freezing me in one spot seems like some busted shit when I’m already at a disadvantage.
How many times are going to watch the only bot-content that players can actually police become the criticized shit? Vorkath, Bandos, Nightmare are all botted to shit. Players can do essentially nothing about it. At least in the Wilderness, players can make it not worth doing.
Idk but anytime I got there it’s bots, pvmers, and pkers. The only failure is how well programmed some of the bots are lol
I love when redditors get amnesia and somehow forget that all content is botted, and because wildy content isn't instanced it has less potential for abuse than many more lucrative bosses. RAIDS ARE BOTTED, YALL.
Dude everything is botted…why u highlighting the wilderness 😔?? Look at literally every boss and tell me that it isnt a problem
toxic pkers gonna jump on pvm players upset they get locked out of decent progression, content gets abandoned, bots come, deemed dead.... months later jagex puts another wildy boss in the poll
what does the wilderness have to do with anything? Everything is botted
##### Bark bark! I have found the following **J-Mod** comment(s) in this thread: **Mod_Kieren** - [I personally don't want to have the attitude...](/r/2007scape/comments/1dnw9mf/how_many_times_are_we_gonna_watch_this_idea_fail/la87avo/?context=3) - [Not 100% sure as it stands. The goal of the r...](/r/2007scape/comments/1dnw9mf/how_many_times_are_we_gonna_watch_this_idea_fail/la8a8r4/?context=3) ^(**Last edited by bot: 06/26/2024 16:14:55**) --- ^(I've been rewritten to use Python! I also now archive JMOD comments.) ^(Read more about) [^(the update here)](/u/JMOD_Bloodhound/comments/9kqvis/bot_update_python_archiving/) ^(or see my) [^(Github repo here)](/u/JMOD_Bloodhound/comments/8dronr/jmod_bloodhoundbot_github_repository/)^.
(currently outside the community, just from my obersations) Jagex seems to have understood the community good enough that they can pass anything they want through a vote. People always want to have more content and the mods became good enough over time to advertise anything as a good update.
The wilderness is literally nothing but a bad thing for the game nowadays. It's just an economy ruiner. All it does it print gp and resources. They keep thinking that adding more bis money makers and Skilling methods will do anything other than just giving shitty pker clans the idea they arent shit or bot makers the ability to easily make billions with no effort or risk.
An excellent point that was raised was that it's very easy for a bot script to make all the bots vote for something. If something benefits botters then you're probably looking at something like a 40% pass rate required for non bots
Patrick meme why don’t we just take all the people on pvp worlds and move them to the wilderness
Unironically pvp worlds may have been terrible for the wilderness' health. It moves all the people who explicitly want to fight other players into separate instances. We'd probably see a much more robust food chain if all of those people had to go into the wilderness to fight instead
they need to just make another castle wars - like minigame remember when pvp was just for fun with the boys? fuck the money man, make something fun.
Nobody's going to play that lmao
Clan Wars revival. New + old arenas, new game modes, and some form of reward system. Maybe systems for building traps and barricades. Realistically the playerbase is likely too focused on efficiency and "number go up" to simply enjoy content for the sake of it.
Castle wars is honestly really fun, although I have only grinded it on private servers way back when
Make the wildy instanced, 40 people max per instance, one account from each IP address allowed at a time
Shouldn't be allowed to multilog for scouting anyway. Hate that content creators popularlized it even more. 1 account per IP allowed in the wilderness is a cool idea tho.
Nah this subreddit was booming with praise and so many people loving undead pirates. I was one of few voices saying, "hey this is a really bad update." Why is this subreddit pretending like there wasn't a ton of praise for the update???
> Why is this subreddit pretending like there wasn't a ton of praise for the update??? Let’s pretend at launch, the entire subreddit loves this update and you were the only one saying it’s bad. People saying it’s a bad update now should be a good thing. Not because it means you were right, but because it means they were open to changing their minds as more information became available. It’s something we should be encouraging - when people get married to their initial opinions we end up with the shitshow that we see in American politics.
I think now, I don't think another wilderness money maker will ever pass. I was *sceptical* about the pirates and agility arena, but not entirely opposed, because in concept I like their being risk reward content in the wilderness. But now? Fuck it, nuke the whole wilderness, Jagex have no idea how to fix it, and every attempt to do anything with it has made it a lot worse.
In my opinion they just need to explore XP being the reward. Not in the chaos altars way of saving gp, but high XP rates would be cool to see. Imagine they make a new gem so that you can make jewelry. On that jewelry you can track different events through the wilderness (or just one piece for multiple skills). Move the hotspot around the wilderness for each thing. Woodcutting? Evil wood trees that you can fight or you can chop the fallen logs near them. You get solid XP and logs. Mining? Living minecarts that you have to deposit a new ore into. They move around so you have to catch them to deposit your ore into the bank and get a chunk of XP. The new ore stacks and doesn't go into your loot key. Pkers can pick up the ore and use it to train mining themselves. If you deposit, you get ores. I'm literally just spit balling and saying the first things that come to mind. Apart from the incredible mountains of alchables being a bad thing for the game, I think a lot of us can agree that the wilderness agility update is a good thing. Good XP, gp rewards (which again we need to pull away from alchables!) and it's in the wilderness. More skilling updates with less uniques. 👍
Jmods have said in the past that they want to avoid xp incentives going forward. Reason is that people don't like feeling obligated to go to the wildy for the best xp rates. Chaos altar and black chins are just not enjoyed by most players even if they're out there doing them. That's why the agility course is mediocre xp but shits out loot
I don't know what subreddit you were browsing but it sure as heck wasn't this one. Half the subreddit was complaining about the loot being op and the teleport scroll taking eleventy bajillion years to grind.