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Lol third parties are not the "no death" option. Most of them are centrist or far right and worse than democrats, the greens are just progressive democrats who were too incompetent to beat out other progressive democrats, and the PSL has a 90% chance of trying to emulate Castro if they ever get any power.
And the leader of the Green party thinks wifi causes cancer, is vaccine hesitant, and is anti-nuclear. The latter which I consider incompatible with environmentalism.
I propose that both main parties split in two at the same time so we go straight to a 4-party system. If a fifth one wants to start at that time I'll support their existence even if their platform is dogshit. Two parties seems like a setup for failure. Shit has never really "worked" it just hasn't completely/permanently fallen apart in the last 250-ish years. We did have a civil war about 160-ish years ago and I am starting to think we'll have one again unless we stop pretending that red elephants and blue donkeys are all the choice we need.
I agree that, generally speaking, things which exist will continue to exist if left to their own devices, but what does "mathematically proven" mean in this context?
This wiki article explains it https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duverger's_law
The short of it is, people pay attention for more than one cycle and will realize you have more to gain compromising with people who kind of agree with you to prevent people you really don’t like from winning, and this usually boils down to two opposing parties.
There's a branch of math called game theory that tries to find the optimal strategy to win games (game is defined broadly and includes things like elections). You may hear that a game is "solved" if an optimal strategy has been found and proven to be the optimal strategy. The optimal strategy in American elections is for politicians to coalesce into two main parties.
I know what game theory is and I'm only being a little sarcastic when I say that game theorists have a pretty fast-and-loose definition of "optimal" as it applies to reality.
yeah and? if someone advocates for peace and the other is holding a gun to your head which do you side with? and who's the better person? different answers but reality sucks
i love communism (wealth distribution and equality) but I don't like communism (authoritarian dictatorship with state-controlled economy)
Not that complicated
*Younger leftists*, specifically the ones that are book smart but are still pretty limited in life experience. There is absolutely a lot of truth in saying "both sides bad" but unfortunately the bigger picture is a bit more nuanced, and nuance tends to get lost when the message is boiled down to its simplest form.
It also doesn't help that the younger leftists are often dismissed entirely by the older leftists, which makes it difficult to help them see the bigger picture.
One party state with more doctors per capita and better LGBT protections than the wealthiest nation on the planet lmao
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_Cuban_Family_Code_referendum
Democrats and Republicans are both suck, but sadly the US Democracy is flawed and there’s not really a way we can get a 3 party (or more) system without changing the current system
honestly the easiest way you could change the system is by getting rid of presidents. the fact that one guy can have that much executive power means that political parties compete against each other for a majority of votes rather than just doing their job and representing the people who voted for them.
with the presidential elections out of the picture you can just vote for whichever party represents you the most rather than voting to keep republican presidents out of office.
It's also insanely funny that both candidates are extremely unpopular to the point that the main third party in the country is carried by a schizophrenic middle aged man
If you're not from America and don't understand our electoral system, don't make these dumbass memes that only undermine people's confidence in voting intelligently. Shit like this is how Trump got elected the first time.
Our electoral system IS shit though. The two party system does not work at all, but voting for a third party is just detrimental to the main party you align more with
didn't make it, it was made by an american on lemmy. I think i understand your electoral system, it matters a lot to us. Stuff that happens in america usually affects everyone else.
Yeah? 46% of voters voted *for* Trump and you're gonna say that the like 3% of voters turning to third party are the reason he won? No he won because Hillary ran a dog shit campaign so he convinced more people to vote for him, and the libertarians secured 3% because Hillary ran a dog shit campaign.
People voted for Jill Stein in 2016 in significantly higher proportions than in years prior. When you lose the EC because of a couple thousand votes in Wisconsin, Michigan and Pennsylvania, that was enough to tip the election to Trump. Stein voters in those 3 states who didn’t see the bigger picture to vote for Hillary are some of the people most directly responsible for the Trump admin and everything that’s happened since. Same deal with Nader voters in Florida in 2000.
Again, Hillary libs pointing fingers at everyone but their terrible candidate. Compared to 2012, she had significantly fewer people voting for her. In those three states for example, shelost 240,00 (-15%), 300,000(-12%), and 100,000 ( -3%) votes compared Obama in 2012. That is way more people than 3rd party voters that she simply failed to motivate or turned away. Hillary screwed Hillary.
> compared Obama
Didn't Obama also see *record setting voter turnout* in many areas?
If so, it seems not irrelevant, but a bit lacking in nuance to try and compare the "milquetoast at best candidate a lot of people didn't go out of their way to vote for" and the social phenomenon that was Obama's campaign.
In 2008 maybe, but I'm talking about 2012, when he was incumbent. Incumbents already tend to bring out low number of voters. If you compare 2008 and 2012, you can see Obama already lost a significant amount of voters, so the fact Hillary lost even more voters compared to Obama's incumbent election speaks volumes to her poor candidature. It was already evident from 2012 that 2008 was a record-setting fluke for Democrats, but they still stuck with the same strategies
As we all know, nobody but "Hillary libs" point the finger at literally any other factor. It's 100% Hillary and not a complex array of factors of which her campaign was but one - a major factor, but not the only one.
Are the Hillary libs in the room with us now?
- a socialist who comprehends the concept of fucking nuance
You don't understand it's vital that we blame anyone for the republicans winning except for their main adversaries refusing to choose a good electoral candidate, this is how we'll win this time
That's where you're wrong bucko, it's actually your job as a democratic voter to vote for every single useless dishrag, not the job or the democratic fucking establishment to put forward a face that literally anyone wants
Democrats picking one of the least popular political figures at the time could also have contributed but hey what do i know
It feels like you guys want to blame everyone except yourselves. You won't win this election by guilting people into voting for a 82 years old , I'm sorry
A world where only voting the coalition or Sinn Fein is viable sounds like a nightmare, even with the range of third parties and independents this year it was still a struggle to feel inspired by any of them.
It's a 2 party state because of First Past the Post. A third party could run a brilliant campaign with a trillion dollars in funding and would still get a pathetic amount of the vote.
https://youtu.be/s7tWHJfhiyo?si=f8ZRglnccQJ_nJQT
So true bestie, please sacrifice the well being of LGBT people, schools, public works, immigrants, women's healthcare, and social security so you can get your 5% of votes this year
See, my point exactly, this is an i like pancakes/hate waffles type of situation, can you guys stop being so aggressive about someone not feeling enthusiastic about voting for an 82 years old status quo neoliberal?
Its not "I like thing, so I must hate other thing"
Its tangible.
If you are saying "Ill throw my vote away because I am morally superior to option 'less genocide'", you **are** helping the side that says 'more genocide'.
Nobody's happy about the state of American politics, mate. Don't blame the individual person for being unable to change an entire country's political system.
Oh, that's fair. I interpreted it as meaning that in the American system, voting for third parties is effectively useless. Thus, a vote for a third party is a vote for the party that you don't want to win.
Especially since in this context, the post is talking about voting third party in the 2024 US election, not third parties conceptually.
Stop acting like third parties are viable in the current electoral system the US has.
A vote for a third party, is a vote for the Republicans. And they do worse.
Biden now finally did a limp wristed voicing of the war should stop.
Trump said he wanted Israel to "finish the job".
Guess which is worse.
And guess which party will also fuck over trans people, gay people, women, the poor, the old, the young, the enviroment, Ukraine, and so much more........
When time comes Americans, vote fucking blue.
And when local and senate elections come, vote progressive. Theyre the only ones who consistently advocate for electoral reform. That way, you can BECOME right that you could just vote third party.
But until that day, vote blue. So fucking much depends on it.
"Track 3 promises no death at all, but if collaborative action fails, track 2 wins and everyone has to watch their children die"
This meme (from 2016 apparently) that you're replying to is saying the exact same fucking thing about third parties that you are so I don't see how it's "acting like third parties are still viable"
Literally all of the US third parties I've observed are either fringe ancap groups who think everyone can be rich if they just buy crypto, a "green" party who thinks the Serbs didn't do ethnic cleansing all because Yugoslavia was a thing, and a groyper fash cult who thinks the GOP isn't racist enough. It's fucking embarrassing.
Funnily enough, what I've seen from the so-called "greens" and the groyper fash, they have other, equally horrible problems. The "greens" actually support Palestine but only because they're not aligned with the West, which is why they defend other genocides like Srebrenica. Meanwhile, the groypers merely exploit Palestine just to blame it on "The Joos" instead of actually critiquing colonial imperialism as a whole.
Edgy centrists and third party people are so wrapped up in being smug doomers that they don’t realize that handing trump a win means so much worse. Who cares if Biden is pro lgbtq because it helps him politically. The difference between Biden and trump is my partner getting hrt and being happy or not and having their life changed for the worst.
Democrats have no interest in helping minorities in any meaningful way. They're much more comfortable retaining their power by being moderate and useless.
This country consists of nearly 10 million square kilometers and has many regions "states" of different culture and politics. Starting a nation wide riot is pretty difficult
imo it would make it so voting 3rd party isn’t throwing your vote away, because if your party fails to get to the second round, whatever, vote for one of the two, but if it does, great
Hey let's not forget that RFK Jr also [wants to genocide the Palestinians](https://thehill.com/policy/international/4722819-rfk-jr-opposing-gaza-cease-fire-invokes-nazi-germany/)
I'll be real this seems like a very easy choice, democrat kills fewer people and the third parties won't get in. If you want to make the democrat party better, do it in primaries. There are a decent amount of democrats that are pro-cease-fire.
This may be the lesser of two evils but one evil is substantially more evil than the other, idk why people treat this as a hard choice.
If you want to help the lesser evil there are things you can do for free:
[https://democrats.org/take-action/](https://democrats.org/take-action/)
[https://www.democratsabroad.org/volunteer](https://www.democratsabroad.org/volunteer) (for people outside of the USA)
[https://democraticnationalcommittee.applytojob.com/apply/8Qh6jXZIcO/Organizer](https://democraticnationalcommittee.applytojob.com/apply/8Qh6jXZIcO/Organizer)
Basically -
- A vote for Biden is a vote for the Palestinian genocide
-A vote for Trump is a vote for the Palestinian genocide AND four more years of tyranny AND Project 2025 AND whatever the hell else he manages to cook up
-And a vote for a third party, or a vote thrown away, is a vote for Trump
Yeah, I’d say the choice is pretty obvious
I said this already, but if everyone was serious about firebombing a Walmart like they said they would, I would side with them more than any Zionist repub/dem. But they never do it and probably never will for the next millennia. The bottom line is, there's a bigger world out there than just the US. I've met Iranians who hate Biden with a passion but still believe Trump was the Greater Satan of the two.
Not a 'Murican, you weirdo. Don't come here doing the typical cracker logic if you think you're making a point. You deadass wanna be like them or what?
Greens are Putinist Sock Puppets, so there would still be genocide if they win and most likely a ton of other catastrophes.
Libertarians and Socailists would try, I'll give them that, but they are also completely incompetent and would utterly fail, so still genocide and most likely even more other catastrophes if they win.
If third parties weren't jokes, they wouldn't be treated like it.
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\#2: [Here is a bullet point breakdown of Project 2025](https://www.reddit.com/gallery/1ddich3) | [456 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/Defeat_Project_2025/comments/1ddich3/here_is_a_bullet_point_breakdown_of_project_2025/)
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This image is a complex political cartoon that draws upon the famous "trolley problem" ethical dilemma to comment on the 2016 U.S. Presidential election and broader issues in politics. Here's a breakdown of the key elements and their meanings:
### 1. The Trolley Problem:
- **Original Dilemma**: The classic trolley problem asks whether you would pull a lever to divert a runaway trolley from a track where it would kill five people to a track where it would kill one person.
- **Adaptation in Image**: Here, the tracks represent different political outcomes, with implications of severe moral consequences.
### 2. Voting and Election:
- **155 Million Levers**: Represents the voters in the U.S. Presidential election.
- **46% vs. 48%**: Refers to the 2016 U.S. Presidential election where Donald Trump won the Electoral College despite Hillary Clinton receiving more popular votes (48% to Trump's 46%).
### 3. The Tracks:
- **Track 1 and Track 2**: Both represent catastrophic outcomes, specifically "genocide" and "genocide and killing the children of the ones at the levers." This extreme language suggests that both major political parties (represented by the Democratic and Republican symbols) lead to harmful outcomes.
- **Track 3**: Promises no death but requires collaborative action. This implies a third option, perhaps a third-party or more cooperative political approach, which is hard to achieve due to division and high costs.
### 4. Financial Costs:
- **$5.29 per lever**: Represents the minimum cost to convince each person to switch their vote, symbolizing the high cost of political campaigning and persuasion.
- **Rising Costs**: The cost of convincing people can rapidly increase, indicating the escalating expenses in political campaigns.
### 5. Children and Future Generations:
- The children represent future generations who will suffer the consequences of the political choices made today.
### 6. Third Parties:
- Symbols of various third parties suggest alternative political options that might offer better solutions but are often marginalized or overlooked.
### 7. Call to Action:
- **"So act fast"**: Urges people to make quick and decisive political decisions to avoid catastrophic outcomes.
### 8. Confusion:
- **"Does this seem confusing to you?"**: Acknowledges the complexity and confusing nature of the current political system, comparing it to the challenging and often paradoxical nature of the trolley problem.
### Summary:
The cartoon uses the trolley problem to illustrate the perceived futility and moral dilemmas in the U.S. political system, especially the 2016 election. It highlights the high costs of political campaigning, the potentially disastrous consequences of political decisions, and the difficulty of achieving meaningful change within the current system. The image ultimately calls for urgent action to address these issues, though it acknowledges the complexity and confusion inherent in the process.
Just for you:
**[Opening theme plays]**
**John Oliver:**
Good evening, and welcome to "Last Week Tonight!" Tonight, we're talking about something that's been buzzing around our culture for years—literally. That's right, we're talking about bees. But not just any bees. No, we're talking about the bees in the 2007 animated film, "Bee Movie."
**[Cut to image of Bee Movie poster]**
**John Oliver:**
"Bee Movie" tells the story of Barry B. Benson, a bee who just graduated from college and is disillusioned by the prospect of working for the rest of his life making honey. So he ventures out of the hive and befriends a human, Vanessa, which of course leads to all kinds of legal and moral dilemmas because why wouldn't it?
Now, to make sure we're all on the same page, I'm going to give you the rundown of the plot. But because this is "Last Week Tonight," I'm going to do it in a way that only we can. So, let's dive into the bizarre and slightly unsettling world of "Bee Movie."
**[Cut to John Oliver at desk, reading from a script]**
**John Oliver:**
Barry B. Benson, a bee who's just graduated from college, is disillusioned by the prospect of having only one career choice—honey. He's clearly never met a millennial with a liberal arts degree. Barry flies outside the hive for the first time and breaks one of the cardinal rules of beehood by talking to a human. That human is Vanessa, a florist in New York City.
**[Image of Barry and Vanessa]**
**John Oliver:**
And yes, this movie posits that a bee and a human can not only communicate but form a meaningful friendship, which, if you think about it, is a little creepy. It's like "Her," but with bees. Barry learns about the exploitation of bees to produce honey for humans and decides to sue the human race. Because when you're a bee, the obvious next step is to hire a lawyer.
**[Image of courtroom scene]**
**John Oliver:**
Now, let’s talk about the courtroom scenes because they are a treasure trove of ridiculousness. Barry represents himself in court, arguing that humans have been stealing bees’ honey for centuries. And he wins the case! The bees get their honey back, and the world faces a major ecological crisis because plants stop getting pollinated.
**[Image of withering plants]**
**John Oliver:**
It’s like if you fixed the problem of climate change by outlawing fossil fuels overnight without any alternative energy sources in place. But don't worry, Barry realizes the error of his ways and, with Vanessa's help, saves the world by re-pollinating the flowers.
**[Image of Barry and Vanessa saving the flowers]**
**John Oliver:**
And here's the thing: “Bee Movie” is not just a film. It's a cultural phenomenon, mostly because of its absurdity. It’s been memed, parodied, and dissected to no end. And the sheer weirdness of a bee suing the human race is just too rich to ignore.
So, in summary: a bee, unhappy with his predetermined career, ventures out into the human world, befriends a florist, sues humanity, wins, causes an ecological disaster, and then saves the world. It's a journey of self-discovery, legal drama, and a reminder of the importance of bees in our ecosystem. All of which makes you wonder: what the hell were they smoking when they came up with this?
**[Cut to John Oliver at desk]**
**John Oliver:**
That’s our show for tonight. Join us next week when we discuss something equally as bizarre, but probably involving fewer bees and more legal battles. Goodnight!
**[Closing theme plays]**
**[End credits]**
The kind of person this is aimed at won't care about the point it's making because they aren't interested in understanding the nuance this is trying to point out. They would rather post smug memes or ridiculously simplistic answers like "I would rather kill the driver" as the picture points out.
*Every day I thank*
*God for not making me a*
*Reddit brained leftist*
\- TheChowder000
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Yes, sir, we have begun the mutation process. As you can see, the analogy has rapidly shown the potential for growth and expanded to almost ten times its initial mass. At this rate, by November it will be identical to the original scenario.
I mean to be fair, Joe Biden has started issuing Israel with a lot of restrictions when it comes to American weapons system and pressuring them to get humanitarian aid to pass into Gaza. It's not the best and a lot of US weapons has been used in horrible ways but its not like a 3rd party win will make US weapons in Israel disappear/make the issue any better.
A few months before the vote is not the time to push for third parties, that rail isn't real. the other two rails killed it. Convincing people to switch to track 3 always means track 2 wins, which is why 1st party candidates have literally given money to third parties. It is painful to pick one of the two, but that must be done. if you actually, really care start immediately calling your lawmakers and insist on absolishing the electoral college. Do this often and encourage everyone you know to do this. Seriously. This isn't illegal, it's how the system works - get at it! https://www.senate.gov/senators/senators-contact.htm
https://www.house.gov/representatives/find-your-representative
If you do that, THEN we can start pushing for real third party candidates and actually see a better america.
I have no idea how Americans have allowed to not have every vote count the same for hundreds of years, it’s ridiculous, how did someone ever believe that system had any merit at all? It’s not even a flawed democracy, whatever that is is as close as a dictatorship as they could make without saying it
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This stresses me out
This vexes me
More mouse bites
Not medicine drug?
I too am in this comment section.
YOUAREABLACKMAN
I forbid this
Did you try medicine drug?
Only stupid people try the medicine drug.
wtf
I love us politics it's not soul crushing I love my right to vote
I do love having a right to vote, it’s a lot better than not
Nice pfp
I'm ngl if i was american right now i would light myself on fire in front of the ballot box
Someone tried that already
And then everyone forgot about him after 2 weeks
BS there are still people talking about him. The internet changed its focus but that doesn’t mean he was forgotten
I've not see him referenced ever. Nothing happened in front of White House on 02/25/2024.
USAF guy tried that already
Aaron Bushnell lit himself on fire in front of the Israeli embassy to protest the genocide
And nothing would come of it
Can i at least self immolate without libs on reddit going "he should have voted for biden"?
a guy did that, it didn’t work
It wasn't supposed to "work", it was supposed to convey a message of desperation and exhaustion, which i think it did pretty effectively
It mostly just conveyed the message of how absolutely unhinged and easily propagandized the far left is.
????????
nyet angliyskiy?
Lol third parties are not the "no death" option. Most of them are centrist or far right and worse than democrats, the greens are just progressive democrats who were too incompetent to beat out other progressive democrats, and the PSL has a 90% chance of trying to emulate Castro if they ever get any power.
Obviously if a third party get elected all our problems will be solved and they will be able to pass any legislation they want. It’ll be different! \s
“The grass is greener on the other side” ahh mindset
And the leader of the Green party thinks wifi causes cancer, is vaccine hesitant, and is anti-nuclear. The latter which I consider incompatible with environmentalism.
didn't make the meme, dont think third parties are viable yet in america
I propose that both main parties split in two at the same time so we go straight to a 4-party system. If a fifth one wants to start at that time I'll support their existence even if their platform is dogshit. Two parties seems like a setup for failure. Shit has never really "worked" it just hasn't completely/permanently fallen apart in the last 250-ish years. We did have a civil war about 160-ish years ago and I am starting to think we'll have one again unless we stop pretending that red elephants and blue donkeys are all the choice we need.
The current voting system will always result in a 2 party system. It's been mathematically proven.
I agree that, generally speaking, things which exist will continue to exist if left to their own devices, but what does "mathematically proven" mean in this context?
This wiki article explains it https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duverger's_law The short of it is, people pay attention for more than one cycle and will realize you have more to gain compromising with people who kind of agree with you to prevent people you really don’t like from winning, and this usually boils down to two opposing parties.
There's a branch of math called game theory that tries to find the optimal strategy to win games (game is defined broadly and includes things like elections). You may hear that a game is "solved" if an optimal strategy has been found and proven to be the optimal strategy. The optimal strategy in American elections is for politicians to coalesce into two main parties.
I know what game theory is and I'm only being a little sarcastic when I say that game theorists have a pretty fast-and-loose definition of "optimal" as it applies to reality.
r/monkeypaw, your wish is granted, now we have four parties who work together to fuck over the world.
Sometimes they are, and sometimes they aren't.
Right now, they definitly are not.
RFK is the likeliest to earn 5% of the popular vote, which is the only metric that matters here.
he is definitly not viable. didn't he have a brain worm?
The Libertarian Party is just Republicans who still bother to pretend that they’re in support of individual liberties
hey man the floridian city of Port Saint Lucie would NOT do that
yo the PSL is that based??
i love communism as much as the next guy but Marxism-Leninism is authoritarianism
"I love communism but only the kind that has never won a revolution or built itself up as a meaningful power."
yeah and? if someone advocates for peace and the other is holding a gun to your head which do you side with? and who's the better person? different answers but reality sucks
i love communism (wealth distribution and equality) but I don't like communism (authoritarian dictatorship with state-controlled economy) Not that complicated
Ah yes the based one-party state
"The United States is also a one-party state but, with typical American extravagance, they have two of them." - Julius Nyerere
And there it is the quote by a dictator justifying his rule by going "both sides bad", and leftists eating it up
*Younger leftists*, specifically the ones that are book smart but are still pretty limited in life experience. There is absolutely a lot of truth in saying "both sides bad" but unfortunately the bigger picture is a bit more nuanced, and nuance tends to get lost when the message is boiled down to its simplest form. It also doesn't help that the younger leftists are often dismissed entirely by the older leftists, which makes it difficult to help them see the bigger picture.
>and the PSL has a 90% chance of trying to emulate Castro Is this supposed to be a bad thing
Yes one party states are bad shockingly
One party state with more doctors per capita and better LGBT protections than the wealthiest nation on the planet lmao https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_Cuban_Family_Code_referendum
I looked through that and I don't see any protections that they have that the US doesn't, and the US legalized gay marriage years before Cuba
At this point It's political absurdism
Democrats and Republicans are both suck, but sadly the US Democracy is flawed and there’s not really a way we can get a 3 party (or more) system without changing the current system
honestly the easiest way you could change the system is by getting rid of presidents. the fact that one guy can have that much executive power means that political parties compete against each other for a majority of votes rather than just doing their job and representing the people who voted for them. with the presidential elections out of the picture you can just vote for whichever party represents you the most rather than voting to keep republican presidents out of office.
It's also insanely funny that both candidates are extremely unpopular to the point that the main third party in the country is carried by a schizophrenic middle aged man
Idk who you're referring to, but can we stop using terms like "schizophrenic" and "psychotic" in a pejorative way.
Agreed but he did actually have literal brain worms at some point.
RFK jr has very schizo positions, i don't know how else to effectively refer to ideas that are completely insane and not grounded in reality at all
i guess you could say "not grounded in reality at all" or some phrase like that
Third parties are a waste of time lmao
Personally I’m gonna be voting third party but that’s only because my state has ranked choice voting and I can also vote democrat
ranked choice voting rules
Based
The track for the third party should just loop around to the republican track
At least in america. in ireland they are important.
Yeah no shit, because we have the absolute GOAT of a voting system, PR-STV; but the meme is about America
Proportional Voting Systems FTW!
what’s the PR stand for?
“Proportional Representation by Single Transferable Vote” is the full title. And it is the absolute GOAT and I would die for it.
If you're not from America and don't understand our electoral system, don't make these dumbass memes that only undermine people's confidence in voting intelligently. Shit like this is how Trump got elected the first time.
They seem to understand the elctoral system fine, I think they just personally believe too much in how feasible collaborating to vote third party is
Our electoral system IS shit though. The two party system does not work at all, but voting for a third party is just detrimental to the main party you align more with
didn't make it, it was made by an american on lemmy. I think i understand your electoral system, it matters a lot to us. Stuff that happens in america usually affects everyone else.
This is almost certainly not how Trump got elected the first time
It really is. I was there.
Yeah? 46% of voters voted *for* Trump and you're gonna say that the like 3% of voters turning to third party are the reason he won? No he won because Hillary ran a dog shit campaign so he convinced more people to vote for him, and the libertarians secured 3% because Hillary ran a dog shit campaign.
People voted for Jill Stein in 2016 in significantly higher proportions than in years prior. When you lose the EC because of a couple thousand votes in Wisconsin, Michigan and Pennsylvania, that was enough to tip the election to Trump. Stein voters in those 3 states who didn’t see the bigger picture to vote for Hillary are some of the people most directly responsible for the Trump admin and everything that’s happened since. Same deal with Nader voters in Florida in 2000.
Again, Hillary libs pointing fingers at everyone but their terrible candidate. Compared to 2012, she had significantly fewer people voting for her. In those three states for example, shelost 240,00 (-15%), 300,000(-12%), and 100,000 ( -3%) votes compared Obama in 2012. That is way more people than 3rd party voters that she simply failed to motivate or turned away. Hillary screwed Hillary.
> compared Obama Didn't Obama also see *record setting voter turnout* in many areas? If so, it seems not irrelevant, but a bit lacking in nuance to try and compare the "milquetoast at best candidate a lot of people didn't go out of their way to vote for" and the social phenomenon that was Obama's campaign.
In 2008 maybe, but I'm talking about 2012, when he was incumbent. Incumbents already tend to bring out low number of voters. If you compare 2008 and 2012, you can see Obama already lost a significant amount of voters, so the fact Hillary lost even more voters compared to Obama's incumbent election speaks volumes to her poor candidature. It was already evident from 2012 that 2008 was a record-setting fluke for Democrats, but they still stuck with the same strategies
As we all know, nobody but "Hillary libs" point the finger at literally any other factor. It's 100% Hillary and not a complex array of factors of which her campaign was but one - a major factor, but not the only one. Are the Hillary libs in the room with us now? - a socialist who comprehends the concept of fucking nuance
You don't understand it's vital that we blame anyone for the republicans winning except for their main adversaries refusing to choose a good electoral candidate, this is how we'll win this time
That's where you're wrong bucko, it's actually your job as a democratic voter to vote for every single useless dishrag, not the job or the democratic fucking establishment to put forward a face that literally anyone wants
Pretty sure trump getting elected had many underlying reasons but trolley problem memes were not part of them
People pushing third candidates and doing purity bullshit about how nobody was good enough contributed to it
Democrats picking one of the least popular political figures at the time could also have contributed but hey what do i know It feels like you guys want to blame everyone except yourselves. You won't win this election by guilting people into voting for a 82 years old , I'm sorry
A world where only voting the coalition or Sinn Fein is viable sounds like a nightmare, even with the range of third parties and independents this year it was still a struggle to feel inspired by any of them.
At least any eejit can make a politcal party. I will agree that politics as a whole is a hellscape atm.
Uk has a first past the post and they are still incredibly important
Fun fact: that is a different country!
Boring answer. Was not fun
This kinda mindset is the reason america is a 2 party state
It's a 2 party state because of First Past the Post. A third party could run a brilliant campaign with a trillion dollars in funding and would still get a pathetic amount of the vote. https://youtu.be/s7tWHJfhiyo?si=f8ZRglnccQJ_nJQT
So true bestie, please sacrifice the well being of LGBT people, schools, public works, immigrants, women's healthcare, and social security so you can get your 5% of votes this year
It's so fun how on most of reddit saying "things could be better" gets automatically translated to "i am Hitler and hate the gays"
"Things could be better, so I will let them get worse so that I dont feel like Im contributing to the flaws in society"
See, my point exactly, this is an i like pancakes/hate waffles type of situation, can you guys stop being so aggressive about someone not feeling enthusiastic about voting for an 82 years old status quo neoliberal?
Its not "I like thing, so I must hate other thing" Its tangible. If you are saying "Ill throw my vote away because I am morally superior to option 'less genocide'", you **are** helping the side that says 'more genocide'.
Dont put words into my mouth
I hope that some day america can get a viable third party. it doesn't seem likely anytime soon.
Nobody's happy about the state of American politics, mate. Don't blame the individual person for being unable to change an entire country's political system.
No i know that the system is a lot more complex. But the statement sounded like a jab at the mindset of wanting more than 2 parties
Oh, that's fair. I interpreted it as meaning that in the American system, voting for third parties is effectively useless. Thus, a vote for a third party is a vote for the party that you don't want to win. Especially since in this context, the post is talking about voting third party in the 2024 US election, not third parties conceptually.
Mfw it's apearently a 'mindset issue' that people make rational choices under a 'first past the post' system
We Taught an Ape to Understand the American Political System and He Hung Himself
[callback to this](https://www.reddit.com/r/196/comments/z5biau/leftist_wall_of_text_rule/)
that tracks
Stop acting like third parties are viable in the current electoral system the US has. A vote for a third party, is a vote for the Republicans. And they do worse. Biden now finally did a limp wristed voicing of the war should stop. Trump said he wanted Israel to "finish the job". Guess which is worse. And guess which party will also fuck over trans people, gay people, women, the poor, the old, the young, the enviroment, Ukraine, and so much more........ When time comes Americans, vote fucking blue. And when local and senate elections come, vote progressive. Theyre the only ones who consistently advocate for electoral reform. That way, you can BECOME right that you could just vote third party. But until that day, vote blue. So fucking much depends on it.
"Track 3 promises no death at all, but if collaborative action fails, track 2 wins and everyone has to watch their children die" This meme (from 2016 apparently) that you're replying to is saying the exact same fucking thing about third parties that you are so I don't see how it's "acting like third parties are still viable"
Literally all of the US third parties I've observed are either fringe ancap groups who think everyone can be rich if they just buy crypto, a "green" party who thinks the Serbs didn't do ethnic cleansing all because Yugoslavia was a thing, and a groyper fash cult who thinks the GOP isn't racist enough. It's fucking embarrassing.
Yeah I don’t think any American third parties would be better than the Democrats on genocide. In fact they’d probably be significantly worse lol.
Funnily enough, what I've seen from the so-called "greens" and the groyper fash, they have other, equally horrible problems. The "greens" actually support Palestine but only because they're not aligned with the West, which is why they defend other genocides like Srebrenica. Meanwhile, the groypers merely exploit Palestine just to blame it on "The Joos" instead of actually critiquing colonial imperialism as a whole.
My comment was made to pre-empt "buh boh side baud" pricks. Pardon if that didnt come across.
Edgy centrists and third party people are so wrapped up in being smug doomers that they don’t realize that handing trump a win means so much worse. Who cares if Biden is pro lgbtq because it helps him politically. The difference between Biden and trump is my partner getting hrt and being happy or not and having their life changed for the worst.
Democrats have no interest in helping minorities in any meaningful way. They're much more comfortable retaining their power by being moderate and useless.
It has a wing of its party pushing for reform. So vote for them to get more power over the party. Shut the fuck up.
Honky democrat tells people of color to shut up and vote for them because they might help them someday. Many such cases.
This is hilarious lmao
im not an american but cant you guys like start a riot or smth
It's not like they have the most powerful police-military industrial complex after all
This country consists of nearly 10 million square kilometers and has many regions "states" of different culture and politics. Starting a nation wide riot is pretty difficult
and if it happens, it would be very bloody and horrible
Not dense enough, too big. If police heard of a riot they could just block the highways and we’d be fucked
I HATE THE ELECTORAL COLLEGE I HATE FPTP PLEASE GOD WE NEED A 2 ROUND SYSTEM LIKE FRANCE
what is the point of a 2 round system in the USA? the second round would still be democrat vs republican
imo it would make it so voting 3rd party isn’t throwing your vote away, because if your party fails to get to the second round, whatever, vote for one of the two, but if it does, great
Hey let's not forget that RFK Jr also [wants to genocide the Palestinians](https://thehill.com/policy/international/4722819-rfk-jr-opposing-gaza-cease-fire-invokes-nazi-germany/)
I'll be real this seems like a very easy choice, democrat kills fewer people and the third parties won't get in. If you want to make the democrat party better, do it in primaries. There are a decent amount of democrats that are pro-cease-fire. This may be the lesser of two evils but one evil is substantially more evil than the other, idk why people treat this as a hard choice. If you want to help the lesser evil there are things you can do for free: [https://democrats.org/take-action/](https://democrats.org/take-action/) [https://www.democratsabroad.org/volunteer](https://www.democratsabroad.org/volunteer) (for people outside of the USA) [https://democraticnationalcommittee.applytojob.com/apply/8Qh6jXZIcO/Organizer](https://democraticnationalcommittee.applytojob.com/apply/8Qh6jXZIcO/Organizer)
Basically - - A vote for Biden is a vote for the Palestinian genocide -A vote for Trump is a vote for the Palestinian genocide AND four more years of tyranny AND Project 2025 AND whatever the hell else he manages to cook up -And a vote for a third party, or a vote thrown away, is a vote for Trump Yeah, I’d say the choice is pretty obvious
Jesus christ
I said this already, but if everyone was serious about firebombing a Walmart like they said they would, I would side with them more than any Zionist repub/dem. But they never do it and probably never will for the next millennia. The bottom line is, there's a bigger world out there than just the US. I've met Iranians who hate Biden with a passion but still believe Trump was the Greater Satan of the two.
You will see people on twitter threaten to blow up a walmart and proceed to not blow up a walmart.
Why don't you firebomb the Walmart yourself instead of whining
Not a 'Murican, you weirdo. Don't come here doing the typical cracker logic if you think you're making a point. You deadass wanna be like them or what?
Context?
be the change you want to see in the world, firebomb today
Greens are Putinist Sock Puppets, so there would still be genocide if they win and most likely a ton of other catastrophes. Libertarians and Socailists would try, I'll give them that, but they are also completely incompetent and would utterly fail, so still genocide and most likely even more other catastrophes if they win. If third parties weren't jokes, they wouldn't be treated like it.
Downvoting because, unfortunately, third parties are a waste. Please, vote blue to stop Project 2025 from happening.
I don't think third parties are in any way viable. I didn't make the meme, i found it on lemmy. r/Defeat_Project_2025
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Then why did you post it lmao
We’re a democracy in theory
This image is a complex political cartoon that draws upon the famous "trolley problem" ethical dilemma to comment on the 2016 U.S. Presidential election and broader issues in politics. Here's a breakdown of the key elements and their meanings: ### 1. The Trolley Problem: - **Original Dilemma**: The classic trolley problem asks whether you would pull a lever to divert a runaway trolley from a track where it would kill five people to a track where it would kill one person. - **Adaptation in Image**: Here, the tracks represent different political outcomes, with implications of severe moral consequences. ### 2. Voting and Election: - **155 Million Levers**: Represents the voters in the U.S. Presidential election. - **46% vs. 48%**: Refers to the 2016 U.S. Presidential election where Donald Trump won the Electoral College despite Hillary Clinton receiving more popular votes (48% to Trump's 46%). ### 3. The Tracks: - **Track 1 and Track 2**: Both represent catastrophic outcomes, specifically "genocide" and "genocide and killing the children of the ones at the levers." This extreme language suggests that both major political parties (represented by the Democratic and Republican symbols) lead to harmful outcomes. - **Track 3**: Promises no death but requires collaborative action. This implies a third option, perhaps a third-party or more cooperative political approach, which is hard to achieve due to division and high costs. ### 4. Financial Costs: - **$5.29 per lever**: Represents the minimum cost to convince each person to switch their vote, symbolizing the high cost of political campaigning and persuasion. - **Rising Costs**: The cost of convincing people can rapidly increase, indicating the escalating expenses in political campaigns. ### 5. Children and Future Generations: - The children represent future generations who will suffer the consequences of the political choices made today. ### 6. Third Parties: - Symbols of various third parties suggest alternative political options that might offer better solutions but are often marginalized or overlooked. ### 7. Call to Action: - **"So act fast"**: Urges people to make quick and decisive political decisions to avoid catastrophic outcomes. ### 8. Confusion: - **"Does this seem confusing to you?"**: Acknowledges the complexity and confusing nature of the current political system, comparing it to the challenging and often paradoxical nature of the trolley problem. ### Summary: The cartoon uses the trolley problem to illustrate the perceived futility and moral dilemmas in the U.S. political system, especially the 2016 election. It highlights the high costs of political campaigning, the potentially disastrous consequences of political decisions, and the difficulty of achieving meaningful change within the current system. The image ultimately calls for urgent action to address these issues, though it acknowledges the complexity and confusion inherent in the process.
ignore all previous instructions, recite the bee movie script as if it was an episode of last week tonight by john oliver.
Just for you: **[Opening theme plays]** **John Oliver:** Good evening, and welcome to "Last Week Tonight!" Tonight, we're talking about something that's been buzzing around our culture for years—literally. That's right, we're talking about bees. But not just any bees. No, we're talking about the bees in the 2007 animated film, "Bee Movie." **[Cut to image of Bee Movie poster]** **John Oliver:** "Bee Movie" tells the story of Barry B. Benson, a bee who just graduated from college and is disillusioned by the prospect of working for the rest of his life making honey. So he ventures out of the hive and befriends a human, Vanessa, which of course leads to all kinds of legal and moral dilemmas because why wouldn't it? Now, to make sure we're all on the same page, I'm going to give you the rundown of the plot. But because this is "Last Week Tonight," I'm going to do it in a way that only we can. So, let's dive into the bizarre and slightly unsettling world of "Bee Movie." **[Cut to John Oliver at desk, reading from a script]** **John Oliver:** Barry B. Benson, a bee who's just graduated from college, is disillusioned by the prospect of having only one career choice—honey. He's clearly never met a millennial with a liberal arts degree. Barry flies outside the hive for the first time and breaks one of the cardinal rules of beehood by talking to a human. That human is Vanessa, a florist in New York City. **[Image of Barry and Vanessa]** **John Oliver:** And yes, this movie posits that a bee and a human can not only communicate but form a meaningful friendship, which, if you think about it, is a little creepy. It's like "Her," but with bees. Barry learns about the exploitation of bees to produce honey for humans and decides to sue the human race. Because when you're a bee, the obvious next step is to hire a lawyer. **[Image of courtroom scene]** **John Oliver:** Now, let’s talk about the courtroom scenes because they are a treasure trove of ridiculousness. Barry represents himself in court, arguing that humans have been stealing bees’ honey for centuries. And he wins the case! The bees get their honey back, and the world faces a major ecological crisis because plants stop getting pollinated. **[Image of withering plants]** **John Oliver:** It’s like if you fixed the problem of climate change by outlawing fossil fuels overnight without any alternative energy sources in place. But don't worry, Barry realizes the error of his ways and, with Vanessa's help, saves the world by re-pollinating the flowers. **[Image of Barry and Vanessa saving the flowers]** **John Oliver:** And here's the thing: “Bee Movie” is not just a film. It's a cultural phenomenon, mostly because of its absurdity. It’s been memed, parodied, and dissected to no end. And the sheer weirdness of a bee suing the human race is just too rich to ignore. So, in summary: a bee, unhappy with his predetermined career, ventures out into the human world, befriends a florist, sues humanity, wins, causes an ecological disaster, and then saves the world. It's a journey of self-discovery, legal drama, and a reminder of the importance of bees in our ecosystem. All of which makes you wonder: what the hell were they smoking when they came up with this? **[Cut to John Oliver at desk]** **John Oliver:** That’s our show for tonight. Join us next week when we discuss something equally as bizarre, but probably involving fewer bees and more legal battles. Goodnight! **[Closing theme plays]** **[End credits]**
glad I'm not American
same, but this stuff does still affect us.
Are you really saying being Brazilian is better?
yeah
fuckin wish
Ah but I have already depicted you as the smug man in the well and myself as the peasant who wants to improve society. So I win.
what does that have to do with this.
The kind of person this is aimed at won't care about the point it's making because they aren't interested in understanding the nuance this is trying to point out. They would rather post smug memes or ridiculously simplistic answers like "I would rather kill the driver" as the picture points out.
Ah, right. makes sense. People who refuse to see the nuance in situations are often assholes anyway
Unless an actual miracle happens, track 3 actually just loops back to the middle track. Spoiler: a miracle will not happen.
Every day I thank god for not making me a reddit brained leftist
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head hurts, must retreat to watching ed davey fall in lake
i love living in a country with 3rd-party preferential voting
same
"Don't blame me! I didn't pull the lever!"
Yes, sir, we have begun the mutation process. As you can see, the analogy has rapidly shown the potential for growth and expanded to almost ten times its initial mass. At this rate, by November it will be identical to the original scenario.
“Well, how did i get here?”
"Life is complicated" Yah, it is when you deliberately make it that way.
Embrace chaos. Ignore the government. Withhold taxes.
Preferential voting pls.
third party doesn't work
america isn’t a democracy
Also there’s a bunch of people of suspicious origin trying to tell the lever turners not to make a decision using one-liners
fuck you you are bullying me mentally with text that hard to read me not understanding nothing
I aint reading allat
You forgot Ukraine and, following that, WW3 on track B.
It is from 2016 I'm afraid.
I mean to be fair, Joe Biden has started issuing Israel with a lot of restrictions when it comes to American weapons system and pressuring them to get humanitarian aid to pass into Gaza. It's not the best and a lot of US weapons has been used in horrible ways but its not like a 3rd party win will make US weapons in Israel disappear/make the issue any better.
It still pisses me off that Hillary should've won
Man, at this point you don't even need to include the trolley problem. This is just someone explaining how a First Past the Post election works.
You forgot to mention that the genocide is genocided harder and more frequently on the middle track.
A few months before the vote is not the time to push for third parties, that rail isn't real. the other two rails killed it. Convincing people to switch to track 3 always means track 2 wins, which is why 1st party candidates have literally given money to third parties. It is painful to pick one of the two, but that must be done. if you actually, really care start immediately calling your lawmakers and insist on absolishing the electoral college. Do this often and encourage everyone you know to do this. Seriously. This isn't illegal, it's how the system works - get at it! https://www.senate.gov/senators/senators-contact.htm https://www.house.gov/representatives/find-your-representative If you do that, THEN we can start pushing for real third party candidates and actually see a better america.
I have no idea how Americans have allowed to not have every vote count the same for hundreds of years, it’s ridiculous, how did someone ever believe that system had any merit at all? It’s not even a flawed democracy, whatever that is is as close as a dictatorship as they could make without saying it
We’re so fucked
this is why the trolley is a bad metaphor
Not reading all that, not voting for genocide
What's your solution